Ukraine Can Win

[JayH]

I think the latter is a bit closer to the truth, from what I saw. No matter how "planned" it may have been, I haven't yet seen any videos of the homecoming soldiers looking anything but totally stuffed, and relieved to be out of there.  All of the interviews with soldiers that I've seen refer to a wholesale retreat.

That's carrying optimism just a bit too far.

Much as I would like to believe otherwise, Debaltseve and its inhabitants, including the Ukrainian soldiers, appeared to be only days away from being obliterated.  The only thing which appeared to have saved the troops was the withdrawal - although the fighting continued, the separatists and Russian army could hardly raze the town when Putin was basically trumpeting "Peace in our time!"

Kiwi--  it could have been so much worse. Kiev kept insisting there would be no withdrawal--if you think about that it was smart thing to say and not telegraph your intentions. Anecdotally-- retreating Ukrainian troops commented how reluctant the Russians were to attack them at night-maybe because they were expecting a counter attack? Whatever-it worked ok.

Was it a "win"- certainly not in the military sense-- but the "win: was that it showed the Russians for what they are-- as treacherous lying untrustworthy scum. It highlighted that to western leaders everywhere-- and showed the west that Ukraine could not withstand the full Russian military force without help- so that was a "win: for Ukraine.

The Russians have no problem with razing towns in their path.No concern is shown for anything but Putins Russian military aims-- and one of those is to make this war as costly to Ukraine and Ukrainians as possible. See Putin's scorched earth strategy in Chechnya as an example-- and the amount of damage being inflicted in eastern Ukraine.

[LiveFromUkraine]

How is the book coming along?  Did you ever find a likable protagonist?  You know author to author, if you ever need help with writing, I am sure you can find a seminar that fits your budget.

I doubt TomT is writing a comic book, but I am sure he appreciates your "help".

[TomT]

Feel free to explain to us all at anytime how sanctions will not hurt Russia--or do you deny that you said that?
Or tell us about the impersive Russian economy that could not be touched as it's exports were so strong!! You want to deny that too? !!

You must be confusing me with one of your other admirers because I've written little about the sanctions.


Truly, the Ukrainian government forces have won some stunning victories, especially at Ilovaisk, Donetsk airport and Debaltseve! They are in serious danger of becoming overconfident.

[lordtiberius]

Cheer leading for atrocities and murder, this just like the other place.  You know the one with all the traffic on it.

[AC]

I would say it is a very real sense of right and wrong in their personal lives and most I know practice it. Outside of the personal sphere of influence many are filled with apathy

I have learned the wisdom of this post over time through a friendship with a Russian citizen.  He's honest and fair in his personal dealings, and he doesn't get involved in politics.

[Anotherkiwi]

Kiwi--  it could have been so much worse. Kiev kept insisting there would be no withdrawal--if you think about that it was smart thing to say and not telegraph your intentions. Anecdotally-- retreating Ukrainian troops commented how reluctant the Russians were to attack them at night-maybe because they were expecting a counter attack? Whatever-it worked ok.

The opposite side of that coin is that Debaltseve had become a "poster child" for how well the Ukrainian army had been able to withstand the opposing forces.  Had Kyiv said that they were going to withdraw the troops, the backlash could have been much worse than they expected.

Was it a "win"- certainly not in the military sense-- but the "win: was that it showed the Russians for what they are-- as treacherous lying untrustworthy scum. It highlighted that to western leaders everywhere-- and showed the west that Ukraine could not withstand the full Russian military force without help- so that was a "win: for Ukraine.

So what?  Most in the West know this, and now expect Russia to behave in that way (and note here that I mean the Russian Government, not the people in general).  Unfortunately it's the general Russian population who need to be aware of the duplicitous way in which their Government is acting, but who remain in the dark because of the effectiveness of the propaganda which they've been fed about the whole conflict for the past year.  As I've posted before (with several others agreeing), most people throughout the world are quite happy to believe the news that they read or see on TV, without bothering to check other possible sources.

The Russians have no problem with razing towns in their path. No concern is shown for anything but Putin's Russian military aims-- and one of those is to make this war as costly to Ukraine and Ukrainians as possible. See Putin's scorched earth strategy in Chechnya as an example-- and the amount of damage being inflicted in eastern Ukraine.

While I agree with your overall premise, no towns have yet been razed (or even close to it) in Ukraine.  I think that  even the most credulous of people would struggle to believe that Ukraine would totally destroy its own settlements just to try to put the blame on Russia.

[lordtiberius]

You're wrong mate.  It is Russ  Soviet military doctrine to raze cities.  If Debelsteve wasn't razed, then what was it?

[JayH]

While I agree with your overall premise, no towns have yet been razed (or even close to it) in Ukraine.  I think that  even the most credulous of people would struggle to believe that Ukraine would totally destroy its own settlements just to try to put the blame on Russia.

There has been zero concern for civilians caught in the fighting from the Russian side.Now this report and the report of the start of ethnic cleansing-really--how disgusting does this have to get to understand the depth of the humanitarian crisis taking place in eastern Ukraine.
It is just another reason that Russia and it's perpetrators need to be totally removed from Ukraine

US at UN Security Council accuses militants of murdering 500 civilians in Debaltseve

UNIAN: US Ambassador to the United Nations Samantha Power claims that bodies of 500 civilians killed in firing by pro-Russian militants have been found in the town of Debaltseve in Donetsk region.

http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine/ukraine-today-us-at-un-security-council-accuses-militants-of-murdering-500-civilians-in-debaltseve-382841.html

[Anotherkiwi]

There has been zero concern for civilians caught in the fighting from the Russian side.Now this report and the report of the start of ethnic cleansing-really--how disgusting does this have to get to understand the depth of the humanitarian crisis taking place in eastern Ukraine.
It is just another reason that Russia and it's perpetrators need to be totally removed from Ukraine

I agree, although I would take issue with your description of what is happening as "ethnic cleansing," as that implies that a particular ethnic group is being destroyed.  Although what is happening in eastern Ukraine is horrific, all the combatants (apart from small groups of "foreigners," such as Chechens) are Ukrainian and Russian.  You can't make a case for loyal and disloyal Ukrainians being different ethnic groups.

[AC]

John McCain agrees with the title of this thread.  Ukraine can win, if given the proper weapons.

[JayH]

Story today on the despicable treatment of their own by Russians-- and of the low level if intelligence of those recruited-plus the lack of knowledge or understanding.
It all points to why and how Ukraine can "win" in eastern Ukraine.

RUSSIAN HOPES OF MONEY, GLORY DIE ON UKRAINE BATTLEFIELDS
"Ten weeks later, Zhitineva was watching a documentary on the local channel that showed the gory aftermath of a Jan. 25 clash won by the Ukrainian government forces.

Suddenly, a Ukrainian army officer displayed a battered Russian passport. It was her husband's.

That was how she learned he was dead.

Borisov, wounded in the same battle, phoned his friend's widow from a war-zone hospital to confirm that Zhitinev had last been seen with the tank unit in Sanzharovka, where the Ukrainian officer found the body and passport.

Zhitineva's appeals to local and military authorities brought no further word on his fate — or of his promised salary from the Russia-backed separatists.

"I haven't received a kopeck," Zhitineva said in a recent interview, casting a glance about the sparsely furnished apartment where her 5-year-old son, Denis, made playthings from foil-wrapped candies, marching them like toy soldiers along the sole piece of carpet.

Neither were her efforts to obtain a death certificate successful in a lawless war zone where coroner's inquiries are nonexistent and funeral homes have been destroyed, along with houses, factories, transportation and more than 6,000 lives.

She had no proof he is dead, and no hope of claiming widow's benefits from a Russian military that denies responsibility for the mercenaries fighting in Ukraine.

"A small bit of hope remains in me that he might still be alive," Zhitineva said a month after seeing the documentary with his passport, shaking her head a moment later to dismiss the thought."



http://www.latimes.com/world/la-fg-c1-russia-ukraine-burying-bodies-20150324-story.html#page=1

[TomT]

John McCain agrees with the title of this thread.  Ukraine can win, if given the proper weapons.

ANT,


Only someone with an inverted perspective would quote a senile politician to support their argument. At this point, John McCain actually makes Joe Arpaio look good and that is a great feat.

[lordtiberius]

So how do you propose to end the war Tom?

[JayH]

So how do you propose to end the war Tom?

His solution is as FT advocated,
and it is not mooning!

[TomT]

If they pull their military out of Donetsk and Lugansk oblasts, give Russia free access to Krym, resume services to the separatist areas, pay their debts (both gas and bonds) and stop siphoning gas, the war would be over. Russia would probably even overlook the last two items. Of course, Ukraine isn't going to do this. Instead, they will continue to play the role of the mouse that roared and incur tens, possibly hundreds, of thousands of additional casualties, their prime minister will continue ranting like Jay and their president (who isn't nearly wealthy enough already) will squirrel away billions into his offshore accounts.

[JayH]

If they pull their military out of Donetsk and Lugansk oblasts, give Russia free access to Krym, resume services to the separatist areas, pay their debts (both gas and bonds) and stop siphoning gas, the war would be over. Russia would probably even overlook the last two items. Of course, Ukraine isn't going to do this. Instead, they will continue to play the role of the mouse that roared and incur tens, possibly hundreds, of thousands of additional casualties, their prime minister will continue ranting like Jay and their president (who isn't nearly wealthy enough already) will squirrel away billions into his offshore accounts.

His solution is as FT advocated,
and it is not mooning!

Like I said

[Larry1]

If they pull their military out of Donetsk and Lugansk oblasts, give Russia free access to Krym, resume services to the separatist areas, pay their debts (both gas and bonds) and stop siphoning gas, the war would be over. Russia would probably even overlook the last two items. Of course, Ukraine isn't going to do this. Instead, they will continue to play the role of the mouse that roared and incur tens, possibly hundreds, of thousands of additional casualties, their prime minister will continue ranting like Jay and their president (who isn't nearly wealthy enough already) will squirrel away billions into his offshore accounts.

Under TomT's logic Abraham Lincoln could have ended the rebellion in the US in the 1860s by pulling US troops out of the, err, separatist areas in the Southern US.

[JayH]

Under TomT's logic Abraham Lincoln could have ended the rebellion in the US in the 1860s by pulling US troops out of the, err, separatist areas in the Southern US.

 Larry---  using TT and Logic in the same sentence is an oxymoron-- with the emphathis on the moron part.

[lordtiberius]

If they pull their military out of Donetsk and Lugansk oblasts, give Russia free access to Krym, resume services to the separatist areas, pay their debts (both gas and bonds) and stop siphoning gas, the war would be over. Russia would probably even overlook the last two items. Of course, Ukraine isn't going to do this. Instead, they will continue to play the role of the mouse that roared and incur tens, possibly hundreds, of thousands of additional casualties, their prime minister will continue ranting like Jay and their president (who isn't nearly wealthy enough already) will squirrel away billions into his offshore accounts.

So Tom, am I to understand you correctly in that you view the Russians as justified in invading Ukraine?

[Anotherkiwi]

So Tom, am I to understand you correctly in that you view the Russians as justified in invading Ukraine?

What other interpretation can you possibly place on what he wrote?

[bagalia]

What other interpretation can you possibly place on what he wrote?

My interpretation of what he wrote is that Russia is at war with Ukraine and unless Ukraine surrenders to Russia there could be up to hundreds of thousands of casualties.

That and a dig on the Poroschenko being on the take.

Nothing about justifications though it might be a safe assumption.

[lordtiberius]

What other interpretation can you possibly place on what he wrote?

Well, I would still like to hear this from Tom especially in light of Putin's remarks that Kazakhstan is not a real country.

[fathertime]

Larry---  using TT and Logic in the same sentence is an oxymoron-- with the emphathis on the moron part.

Hey Jay, the ruble is down to 57 to the dollar...where does that leave that moronic guess of 200 to a dollar you insisted upon?   


Fathertime!   

[lordtiberius]

Hey Jay, the ruble is down to 57 to the dollar...where does that leave that moronic guess of 200 to a dollar you insisted upon?   


Fathertime!   

Why is the Ruble rebounding?  The strength of the Russian economy?

[Gator]

Why is the Ruble rebounding?  The strength of the Russian economy?

World price of oil is rebounding.