2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)

[GQBlues]

What I am sure of GQ, is that any government efforts to encourage folks to get vaccinated will have to be within the bounds of our Constitution.  I stated that clearly in my previous post.  Anything beyond that is purely subjective and speculative.  Easy.

I'll share my opinion, and read yours.  As in a previous discourse with BillyB, I'd like to drill down to a layer of substance and not dwell on subjective opinions and distractions, aka Deny, Divert, Discredit - that end up as argument rather than discourse.

An abstract is simply a summary.  This abstract highlighted the difference between efficacy determined in vaccine trials vs how effective a vaccine is in the 'real world'.

Of course, fully vaccinated folks still die, but less than in the unvaccinated population.  If a country reaches 100% vaccination rate, all the people that die will have been vaccinated. I discussed and posted the same article a while back in this thread.  UK shows almost 90% have had at least one dose.  http://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/details/vaccinations

Thanks for your opinions, GQ.  As stated above, any actions on the part of the government is subject to our Constitution and law.

A bit of patience is needed for the bureaucrats to cross the t's and dot the i's.  Let it play out.  I'm very confident it will be approved fairly soon, but that is my opinion.

Sure, the internet is a mixed bag, one has to research to separate the wheat from the chaff.

As stated in my prior post, worldometers would be great if it broke down deaths with vaccinated and unvaccinated.  It doesn't.

What we do have so far in terms of assessments of vaccine effectiveness is summarized well in the article below.  You'll just have to learn to be patient for more.  I understand you have trust issues, but do note that the article covers a number of countries and studies, some peer reviewed.

http://www.mja.com.au/journal/2021/effectiveness-covid-19-vaccines-findings-real-world-studies

To try and determine anything more at this early stage would only be speculative.

Lordy, okay..

I cited efficacy and you bring up 'efficiency'. I said it's hypothetical, then you tell me be patient and cites websites' abstracts which basically comes with: inconclusive statements.

You just used worldometer in your graphs and riposte. So I used and dug deeper on the very information within, and showed you where you're amiss, now it (worldometer) isn't 'good enough'?!?! 

Bottom line, we've obviously reduced this to the very point I made on the onset. Vaccine at this time, based on the clinical study done, and information they have on hand at present time, is NOT better than the 98+% survival rate in the US's reported COVID-19 cases.

That's about as *factual* as it is ever gonna get. Far more *factual* than any inconclusive 'abstract' statement you can ever Google, now or in the future - whether you like to acknowledge this or not.

There has NOT been a 100% efficiency in curing any known virus. Not yesterday, not today. Fact. The only way this current virus can better the KNOWN survival rate, is for it to become a *100% efficient*, which it will not and can never be. Like the influenza before it, it perpetually mutates. What it treats today, is basically practically useless tomorrow. That's is the current 'fact' we have today.

If you immunized 100 people, and one survived - that's 1% efficient. 100 survived - 100%.  You, along with all the abstracts and site you can ever Google, can never conclude any vaccine can achieve 100% efficiency, at least not as of today - or at any time prior. Feel free waiting...

My statement above, and those before it, are not an opinion.
 

[BillyB]

Do some deeper diligence and find out....

Already did that. Now for a gag order on you GQ. Everybody in LA county vaccinated or not got to put the mask back on. Think its bad now. Wait till Winter.


http://www.npr.org/2021/07/15/1016621872/la-county-masks-indoors-covid-19-coronavirus

[GQBlues]

Already did that. Now for a gag order on you GQ. Everybody in LA county vaccinated or not got to put the mask back on. Think its bad now. Wait till Winter.

I know. For indoors. I have citizen app and received notification at 2 this afternoon. Begins this Saturday.


What these mandate is NOT telling you, the spike is mostly centralized in *certain neighborhoods*, which they cannot isolate and mandate solely. As you might know, certain Los Angelenos are more likely to 'die' of the virus than others.


So for the sake of NOT being called a 'racist', I shall not dive deeper into this 'fact.

[BC]

Lordy, okay..

I cited efficacy and you bring up 'efficiency'. I said it's hypothetical, then you tell me be patient and cites websites' abstracts which basically comes with: inconclusive statements.

You just used worldometer in your graphs and riposte. So I used and dug deeper on the very information within, and showed you where you're amiss, now it (worldometer) isn't 'good enough'?!?! 

Bottom line, we've obviously reduced this to the very point I made on the onset. Vaccine at this time, based on the clinical study done, and information they have on hand at present time, is NOT better than the 98+% survival rate in the US's reported COVID-19 cases.

That's about as *factual* as it is ever gonna get. Far more *factual* than any inconclusive 'abstract' statement you can ever Google, now or in the future - whether you like to acknowledge this or not.

There has NOT been a 100% efficiency in curing any known virus. Not yesterday, not today. Fact. The only way this current virus can better the KNOWN survival rate, is for it to become a *100% efficient*, which it will not and can never be. Like the influenza before it, it perpetually mutates. What it treats today, is basically practically useless tomorrow. That's is the current 'fact' we have today.

If you immunized 100 people, and one survived - that's 1% efficient. 100 survived - 100%.  You, along with all the abstracts and site you can ever Google, can never conclude any vaccine can achieve 100% efficiency, at least not as of today - or at any time prior. Feel free waiting...

My statement above, and those before it, are not an opinion.

GQ,

From the 6-month post second dose update of the Pfizer trial (required by FDA) published in April 2021, 927 confirmed symptomatic cases were observed.

From the placebo group, 850 symptomatic infections, 21 of which were severe.
From the vaccinated group, 77 symptomatic infections in the vaccinated group, only 1 of which was severe.

FDA and CDC calculate efficacy with different methods.
FDA at 95.3% vs 100% for CDC

http://www.pfizer.com/news/press-release/press-release-detail/pfizer-and-biontech-confirm-high-efficacy-and-no-serious

Criteria for the third classification, which identifies severe COVID-19 cases in clinical trials, includes a confirmed COVID-19 test (per the above guidelines), as well as one of the following symptoms: clinical signs of severe systemic illness, respiratory failure, evidence of shock, significant acute kidney, liver, or brain dysfunction, admission to an ICU, or death.

http://health-desk.org/articles/how-does-pfizer-identify-cases-of-covid-19-in-its-clinical-trials

20:1 odds of severe COVID without the vaccine.  I'll take the 1.

There.. you got efficacy.

As far as how this has affected the data at worldometers.info, other than the estimates I provided, there is none.  There is not enough data collected vaccinated vs unvaccinated to make any accurate guess.

How that efficacy applies in practice (real world) has only been properly studied in Israel, where vaccinated/unvaccinated is known and deaths are classified as well.

http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2101765

3607 symptomatic cases vse 2389 for vaccinated folks
259 hospitalizations vs 110 for vaccinated folks
174 severe covid cases vs 55 for vaccinated folks
32 deaths vs 9 for vaccinated folks



Again, I'll take the 9.

As far as safety is concerned, we have to fall back to 'all reasons' deaths from the trial.  6 deaths, 4 among the unvaccinated and two among the vaccinated group. 

A total of six deaths occurred in the reporting period (2 deaths in the vaccine group, 4 in
placebo). In the vaccine group, one participant with baseline obesity and pre-existing
atherosclerosis died 3 days after Dose 1, and the other participant experienced cardiac arrest
60 days after Dose 2 and died 3 days later. Of the four deaths in the placebo arm, the cause
was unknown for two of them, and the other two participants died from hemorrhagic stroke
(n=1) and myocardial infarction (n=1), respectively; three deaths occurred in the older group
(>55 years of age). All deaths represent events that occur in the general population of the age
groups where they occurred, at a similar rate.

http://www.fda.gov/media/144245/download

So other than counting jellybeans, I don't believe there is much to add at this point.  As more peer reviewed studies come out, we can revisit.

[GQBlues]

Phew! Too many 'words'! Numbers however do a much better job simplifying our lives. Too bad not more people rely on them for important information. 1s and 0s....


The evil of virtual age, I guess.


So you can hopefully give Google a rest, (you remind me of BillyB, and a couple of other members here, with you guys' total dependency on Google) it appears based on your Googled sites, the controlled and monitored clinical trials actually yielded a much better survival rate for (unvaccinated) folks compared to current *real World data*!! Literally a full percentage point!!


Wow! How awesome is that!? It really makes you wonder what really drives Democrats to want to turn our republic into a policed state based on what appears to be junk science! Talk about mis / disinformation! Can you just imagine the uproar had the 'other guy' been the one to propose having private companies monitor, interject, listen in and invade the public's personal communication?!? Holy Molly! Who voted for these guys?


Anyway, you did a good job proving them wrong, BC, by your use of Google, you showed us controlled, closely monitored clinical studies even yielded a higher rate of survival!!! And those folks didn't even have to inject experimental soup that even our very own government, and medical administrators alike, cannot, will not, not in your dreams- approve!!


I'm happy I was able to help crunch these numbers out with you..


 


Bottom line in all of these, I'm glad you, and others like you - including wifey, found comfort in getting vaccinated! I am still banking my decision in the reported survival rate from this virus. Which, incidentally, FWIW, is likely grossly understated if you add the asymptomatic cases in that mx. That's a fact, right?

[BC]

Phew! Too many 'words'! Numbers however do a much better job simplifying our lives. Too bad not more people rely on them for important information. 1s and 0s....

I did offer to count jellybeans for you. But you're smarter than that.

The evil of virtual age, I guess.


So you can hopefully give Google a rest, (you remind me of BillyB, and a couple of other members here, with you guys' total dependency on Google) it appears based on your Googled sites, the controlled and monitored clinical trials actually yielded a much better survival rate for (unvaccinated) folks compared to current *real World data*!! Literally a full percentage point!!

There are differences in how folks use the internet.  Some folks don't read further than the headlines, much less understand anything more complicated than 'he/she done it'.

As far as the differences between trials and real world, yes there are differences.  Also since the trials we have the influence of variants that are making a difference as well.

Wow! How awesome is that!? It really makes you wonder what really drives Democrats to want to turn our republic into a policed state based on what appears to be junk science! Talk about mis / disinformation! Can you just imagine the uproar had the 'other guy' been the one to propose having private companies monitor, interject, listen in and invade the public's personal communication?!? Holy Molly! Who voted for these guys?

Private companies do it all the time.  Do you use email?  This forum? Facebook and other social sites?  How about your credit card companies etc etc.  Yes it is intrusive and something should be done about it.  The government can't, so they simply pay to post ads like any other bizness and don't need to know one thing about who was presented the criteria.  "Show it to virus hesitant people" is enough.   

Anyway, you did a good job proving them wrong, BC, by your use of Google, you showed us controlled, closely monitored clinical studies even yielded a higher rate of survival!!! And those folks didn't even have to inject experimental soup that even our very own government, and medical administrators alike, cannot, will not, not in your dreams- approve!!

No worries here, I've checked and double-checked all possible.  I'm comfortable.  Your difficulties will remain yours.

I'm happy I was able to help crunch these numbers out with you..


 

I enjoyed it as well.  Learned a bit too which is always great.

Bottom line in all of these, I'm glad you, and others like you - including wifey, found comfort in getting vaccinated! I am still banking my decision in the reported survival rate from this virus. Which, incidentally, FWIW, is likely grossly understated if you add the asymptomatic cases in that mx. That's a fact, right?

Statistics are never valid for the individual.  Flip of a coin.  Do stick around though.  Be careful out there.

[Faux Pas]

I'm glad you, and others like you - including wifey, found comfort in getting vaccinated! I am still banking my decision in the reported survival rate from this virus. Which, incidentally, FWIW, is likely grossly understated if you add the asymptomatic cases in that mx. That's a fact, right?

Don't do it

[BillyB]

UK has one of the highest vaccination rates among nations. Their infections are skyrocketing now up to 48,000 per day. Same time last year when vaccines did not exist, daily infections were averaging less than 800 per day.


http://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/uk/

[BC]

Indeed.  Very interesting.

Last May UK was in full lockdown IIRC.  In addition, testing was still a problem back then.



Trying not to project, but something is noticeably different in the charts this time around.

[BillyB]

Last May UK was in full lockdown IIRC.

Government may just rule lockdowns, not vaccines are the trick to beat the virus.

In addition, testing was still a problem back then.

That may be true but testing last month in June was just as abundant as testing this month. The infections from last month to this month are skyrocketing.

Trying not to project, but something is noticeably different in the charts this time around.

Deaths remain low although infections are skyrocketing but why is government silent about giving safe and effective treatments credit? All the attention is on the vaccines when we know for a fact treatments have helped people recover and saved their lives. If safe and effective treatments exist, government must revoke emergency use authorization given to experimental vaccines. We're all going to get the Coronavirus sooner or later and if not vaccinated, let our own immune system beat it.

I was in the same room as a friend who got COVID and breathe the same air but never got sick and never got any symptoms. He has natural immunity. Maybe I do too. Lots of people have natural immunity but governments around the world want to take away their freedoms if they don't take an experimental vaccine. Governments aren't even offering an antibody test to see if people acquired natural immunity to give them a waiver from having to take an experimental vaccine. Why?

[BC]

Government may just rule lockdowns, not vaccines are the trick to beat the virus.

Lockdowns are a good way to beat the virus and save lives, but everyone has to participate and have the discipline to do it right, and at the same time, worldwide.  We didn't, and as soon as restrictions were lifted, the virus took hold again.

That may be true but testing last month in June was just as abundant as testing this month. The infections from last month to this month are skyrocketing.

With lockdowns and other restrictions lifted many disregarded other precautions.  It seems vaccines are doing the heavy lifting, preventing many hospitalizations and deaths.

Deaths remain low although infections are skyrocketing but why is government silent about giving safe and effective treatments credit? All the attention is on the vaccines when we know for a fact treatments have helped people recover and saved their lives. If safe and effective treatments exist, government must revoke emergency use authorization given to experimental vaccines. We're all going to get the Coronavirus sooner or later and if not vaccinated, let our own immune system beat it.[/font]

The vaccines will be fully approved soon.  Although treatments have improved, it is many, many times more expensive, and likely not as effective as vaccines for reducing hospitalization and death.

I was in the same room as a friend who got COVID and breathe the same air but never got sick and never got any symptoms. He has natural immunity. Maybe I do too. Lots of people have natural immunity but governments around the world want to take away their freedoms if they don't take an experimental vaccine. Governments aren't even offering an antibody test to see if people acquired natural immunity to give them a waiver from having to take an experimental vaccine. Why?

Some countries do accept antibody tests, or certification that someone has already had COVID.  Here such was also used to prioritize vaccines, along with other criteria like age and medical conditions to ensure folks who were not infected, and the more vulnerable got their shots first.  Anyone can get an antibody test, they're pretty cheap.  Travel to the US still requires at least a rapid test, even if vaccinated.  Putting 'we' before 'me' takes only a few minutes, which is fine.  I'll do my part, even to help those who refuse to do theirs.  I'll still wear masks in stores and other densely populated areas, I'll still carry a little bottle of disinfectant.  As for freedoms, I feel much more free and at ease nowadays than just a few months ago.  It is kind of odd that it's usually those who don't to do squat for themselves or others are the ones that complain about freedom.



 

[Maxx2]

I was in my restaurant with a friend. A Georgian man that knew my friend was passing by. He told us his father-in-law was in the hospital. He had taken the vaccine, a blood clot formed and went to his brain and he is in a coma.


I seen the interview of the former Vice President of Pfizer and vaccine researcher. He said all the animals used in testing of the vaccine died in the equivalent of 1 to 2 years of human life. He said the vaccine changes the immune system and warned strongly against using it. 

[BC]

What animals?

Mice live 12-18 months.  Some animals are put down.  Does he still work at Pfizer, or any other labs now producing vaccines?  What substantiation did he provide?

Due to the urgent need for a vaccine in a surging pandemic, Pfizer and Moderna were given approval to simultaneously test their vaccines on animals while they were conducting Phase 1 trials on humans. The vaccines were tested on mice and macaques.

http://apnews.com/article/fact-checking-afs:Content:9792931264

[Trenchcoat]

I was in my restaurant with a friend. A Georgian man that knew my friend was passing by. He told us his father-in-law was in the hospital. He had taken the vaccine, a blood clot formed and went to his brain and he is in a coma.


I seen the interview of the former Vice President of Pfizer and vaccine researcher. He said all the animals used in testing of the vaccine died in the equivalent of 1 to 2 years of human life. He said the vaccine changes the immune system and warned strongly against using it.

That's pretty disturbing Maxx, glad I had the AZ Vaccine and not the Pfizer one, let's hope humans fair better with it. All of my close family had the AZ vaccine that is done with the old tried and tested way. Just need to hope that they did it in a sound enough way using that method. If the animals used in testing died as a result of the Pfizer vaccine and not just destroyed as routine procedure then the fear could be pretty grim for those that took the Pfizer vaccine in a year or so's time. Let's hope it's all going to be ok.

In the UK at present the Norovirus is back on the way up:

"Norovirus outbreaks increasing in England - GOV.UK" http://www.gov.uk/government/news/norovirus-outbreaks-increasing-in-england

It's apparently an unpleasant bug with vomiting, etc. Mostly just very unpleasant but to vulnerable people and those unfortunate potentially deadly. I remember hearing of it a few years ago when there was an outbreak. I fortunately avoided it but a fair few people at work caught it. They apparently cleaned every surface with anti bacterial but still people continued to catch it. Either they didn't do a good job of cleaning, the virus was very infectious or they all used it for an excuse to get some paid time off lol.

Anyway, the fear is that Norovirus, Flu's, etc could be a big threat after a low season last year. I booked in my Flu Jab for this winter yesterday for mid September as I would prefer to be quick of the mark and avoid all of that

[Trenchcoat]

Apparently we might be facing another panic buy period at the supermarkets here in the UK as a result of our pingdemic:

"UK facing food shortages as ‘pingdemic’ forces millions into self-isolation – Metro" http://metro.co.uk/2021/07/17/uk-facing-food-shortages-as-pingdemic-causes-staff-absences-14943703/amp/

Luckily I decided to delete my test & trace app just over a week ago now. I don't go out to social stuff and take decent precautions, anti bacterial, masks, etc so should be fine. No point in second guessing a problem I probably don't have I think.

[BillyB]

  Does he still work at Pfizer, or any other labs now producing vaccines?  What substantiation did he provide?

I've posted links and videos of the man numerous times here. Did you read and watch? Dr. Yeadon graduated the top of his class. He worked at numerous biotech companies and later became the VP and Chief science officer at Pfizer. He left the company on good terms and started his own biotech company which he later sold to a big pharma company for $350 million. He now is involved in 20 ventures. There's nobody at the FDA approving vaccines that has achieved as much as he has. He's worth listening to.




For the second week in a row, there are more vaccination deaths than COVID deaths in America. Keep in mind, there are much more vaccine deaths than actually reported. This also does not include the short term or permanent damage the vaccines have done to people.


http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2021/07/second-week-row-covid-19-vaccination-deaths-covid-19-deaths-us-according-cdc-vaers-websites/




Besides 3 other experts in vaccines I've talked about, a fourth, the inventor of mRNA technology is also alarmed about giving the vaccine to healthy people. In this article, he is alarmed so many vaccinated people are still getting infected. This is what those experts warned about. Giving experimental vaccines to healthy people can compromise their immune systems making them more likely to get infected from other pathogens which in turn increased their chances of getting a disease or dying.


http://www.zerohedge.com/covid-19/worrying-me-quite-bit-mrna-vaccine-inventor-shares-viral-thread-showing-covid-surge-most


47% of the people infected in the UK are vaccinated. Vaccines aren't as as effective as advertised in press releases.

http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2021/07/new-uk-study-people-vaccinated-make-47-new-covid-cases/


60 Politicians got on a plane and none have a mask. I've posted photos of politicians in the past with no masks violating their own rules. Now 5 of them got COVID and all 5 are vaccinated.

http://www.statesman.com/story/news/politics/state/2021/07/18/texas-democrats-covid-washington-dc-two-more-test-positive/8008398002/


Kamala and Biden say they won't trust the vaccines.

http://t.me/WeTheMedia/26556


Israel says vaccine is far less effective against variants. Natural immunity is effective against variants according to vaccine experts.

http://www.jpost.com/breaking-news/for-first-time-since-march-855-new-coronavirus-cases-in-israel-674084

[Maxx2]

I've posted links and videos of the man numerous times here. Did you read and watch?

No, they don't. I searched for a while and then it dawned on me I was wasting my time.

[John Gaunt]

Apparently we might be facing another panic buy period at the supermarkets here in the UK as a result of our pingdemic:

"UK facing food shortages as ‘pingdemic’ forces millions into self-isolation – Metro" http://metro.co.uk/2021/07/17/uk-facing-food-shortages-as-pingdemic-causes-staff-absences-14943703/amp/

Luckily I decided to delete my test & trace app just over a week ago now. I don't go out to social stuff and take decent precautions, anti bacterial, masks, etc so should be fine. No point in second guessing a problem I probably don't have I think.

Hope you’re all stocked up with loo roll as that’s often the other casualty of panic buying and you may find yourself reaching for some bog roll and come up empty handed at a most inopportune moment.
If you want to travel I think you’ll have to have that test trace app installed.
Big brothers here to stay methinks.

[GQBlues]

Will the folks who voted for this regime, raise your hands and let it be known.


We had finally arrive to Dystopia, USA; where freedom of speech depends on the approval of the central government and its propaganda media. For those with opposing views to the central government's narrative, you will be universally banned from all social platform today, gulags tomorrow!!! Civil liberty, my arse!




If you think this silliness applies to everyone. Of course not. Don't make the mistake to believe this is NOT a bipartisan move. Who defines dis/misinformation? Of course you know. Otherwise Fauci, CDC, WHO, DNC, etc...would be propped for banning for all the *dis/misinformation* they told all of us from the very beginning of this pandemic!!! Would venues like CNN, MSNBC, ABC, CBS, NBC et al going to be *banned*?


UNBELIEVABLE!!!!

Just this month, professor Satoshi Omura, who won the Nobel Prize for his work on a drug called ivermectin, was censored on YouTube for discussing how it might help treat COVID-19 patients.

[BC]

http://grftr.news/why-was-a-major-study-on-ivermectin-for-covid-19-just-retracted/

Interesting read for those so inclined.

[BC]

BTW GQ, I think Cyberdemon531 who produced the YouTube video you posted is correct with many of her thoughts.

Did you watch the whole video?  I'm quite surprised you posted it.

[BC]

Did you read and watch?

Yes, I generally do watch most of 'em.  He shares his opinion well, but lacks substantive studies to back them up.

[BC]

For the second week in a row, there are more vaccination deaths than COVID deaths in America. Keep in mind, there are much more vaccine deaths than actually reported. This also does not include the short term or permanent damage the vaccines have done to people.


http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2021/07/second-week-row-covid-19-vaccination-deaths-covid-19-deaths-us-according-cdc-vaers-websites/

From the article:

The VAERS database contains information on unverified reports of adverse events (illnesses, health problems and/or symptoms) following immunization with US-licensed vaccines.  The CDC government website links to VAERS platform.

We've discussed before what the VAERS database does, and what it does not, it reports adverse effects that possibly may be related to the vaccine.  It is similar to an email inbox that contains large amounts of emails that are not relevant, and you discard.

[/quote]

[GQBlues]

BTW GQ, I think Cyberdemon531 who produced the YouTube video you posted is correct with many of her thoughts.

Did you watch the whole video?  I'm quite surprised you posted it.

Of course I did. She expressed her opinion, despite some of it being contrary to mine. Why not let it be freely expressed? It would've been easy for me to have chosen another. The underlying message however, which she supported a 1000 fold - is, this regime's suppression of freedom of speech is simply inexcusably un-Constitutional (which you fully support), if not downright criminal.

...I have no issues with health authorities at the state, or federal level doing all they can to provide folks with information to make good choices.

[GQBlues]

Not sure what this means. It should be suppressed!! Ban all Norwegian news!!! Gulags tomorrow!!!