The German invasion of the soviet union

[Larry1]

Today is the anniversary of the first day of Operation Barbarossa, the German invasion of the soviet union. First I will provide some background to the invasion. In 1939 Germany and the soviet union signed a non-aggression pact, each side agreeing not to attack the other.  A secret protocol to the pact set out which territory of other countries each side could conquer. The two countries agreed to divide Poland. The soviet union got to conquer Estonia, Latvia, and Lithuania.

Hitler always intended to conquer and colonize much of the soviet union. The poor performance of the Red Army in its war against Finland convinced Hitler that he could defeat the Red Army.

stalin was warned by his own intelligence services and also the British that the Germans were going to attack but he disregarded the warnings. soviet military intelligence had a foreign intelligence officer, Richard sorge, who penetrated the German embassy in Tokyo and saw the plans for the invasion. stalin bluntly disregarded his warnings. One author estimated that stalin was warned of the invasion by 87 separate credible reports.

The Germans attacked on a broad front with over three million troops, with one group attacking Leningrad (now st. petersburg) in the North, Moscow in the center, and Ukraine and southern Russia in the south. The ultimate goal of this prong of the attack was the huge oilfields of the Caucasus. Hitler's generals warned him that the attack was too broad to succeed, but he disregarded their advice.

Initially the attack went well for the Germans. They captured hundreds of thousands of Red Army troops and destroyed a great deal of military equipment.  By the winter they came very close to Moscow. But the soviets undertook a massive mobilization and stopped German progress. In early December the Red Army launched a major counterattack under the command of Georgi Zhukov.

[krimster2]

so then what happened?

[Muzh]

so then what happened?

Well, you know what they say. The rest is history. 

[BillyB]

Today is the anniversary of the first day of Operation Barbarossa,

 By the winter they came very close to Moscow.

If I remember correctly, the German came within 50 miles of Moscow. If the anniversary of Operation Barbarossa was early like it was planned, Germany may have taken the Soviet Union. Hitler delayed his invasion of the Soviet Union to help his ally, Italy, who was struggling with it's own battles down south. After southeastern Europe was taken care of, Hitler went north but couldn't get the job done by winter which took it's toll on the Germans.

so then what happened?

Utopia, which led to everybody living happily ever after. Aren't you happy?

[Larry1]

so then what happened?

The Russians besieged Leningrad for nearly three years. The Germans captured all of Ukraine. They advanced in southern Russia as far as stalingrad but were defeated there. Then they were defeated at Kursk and were gradually pushed out of Russia and utimately back to Berlin.

[ML]

The Russians besieged Leningrad for nearly three years.

Why did they do that ?

[BillyB]

Why did they do that ?

1) Leningrad was a symbolic city representing Communism named after Lenin. For Hitler, taking that city was personal.

2) Leningrad was a strategic port city.

3) Who could pass up a beautiful city what is known as St. Petersburg and its girls?

[ML]

Billy, you had better read Larry's post again.

[Brasscasing]

The Russians besieged Leningrad for nearly three years. The Germans captured all of Ukraine. They advanced in southern Russia as far as stalingrad but were defeated there. Then they were defeated at Kursk and were gradually pushed out of Russia and utimately back to Berlin.

I've brought this up before, Larry. However, as far as Operation Barbarossa goes this was a definitive moment (the siege of Leningrad) of the war and yet another Hitler thinks he's a great general and countermands his real general's sound tactical advice moment...

If Hitler had not ordered Von Leeb to stop his advance outside of Leningrad, put the city under siege and diverted Leeb's Panzer formations South to Army Group Center there's a reasonable tactical/historical probability that Von Leeb would have continued forward compromising the Soviet lines and flanked the Soviet formations defending Moscow not giving Zhukov breathing room to shore up his beleaguered army formations.

As an aside General Von Leeb has mostly been forgotten to history. He was a popular General and astute tactician. He was the General who commanded Army Group C that rolled through the Maginot Line and pushed through to Calais in Southern France (in effect forcing the Dunkirk evacuation). Further, he was the general charged with defending the Western flank of Germany against a French counter invasion (which never came) when the Nazis invaded Poland in '39.

Von Leeb despised Hitler and the Nazi regime and openly criticized both at any given opportunity. However, he was complicit with the regime in the early part of the war and IMO loses any moral high ground history may have given him.

Hitler 'retired' him in '41 (there are reports that Von Leeb actually quit which is in itself unique when it comes to the Nazis) but even then Von Leeb was too popular to "disappear".

As with most senior Nazi field commanders he was charged with four counts of war crimes and convicted of one count at Nuremburg but unlike most of the senior Nazi's who were sentenced to death he was sentenced to time served and released.

If Hitler had not interfered with Von Leeb's tactical decisions Operation Barbarossa may have ended differently than it did. Thank Gawd.

Brass

[2tallbill]

Why did they do that ?

It was a typo, the Germans attacked.

[BillyB]

Billy, you had better read Larry's post again.

LOL. Here's my correction:

1) Leningrad was a symbolic city representing Communism named after Lenin. For Stalin, keeping that city was personal.

2) Leningrad was a strategic port city.

3) Who could give up a beautiful city what is known as St. Petersburg and its girls?

[Gator]

If Hitler had not ordered Von Leeb to stop his advance outside of Leningrad, put the city under siege and diverted Leeb's Panzer formations South to Army Group Center there's a reasonable tactical/historical probability that Von Leeb would have continued forward compromising the Soviet lines and flanked the Soviet formations defending Moscow not giving Zhukov breathing room to shore up his beleaguered army formations.

Exactly.  Leningrad was a secondary to the capture of Moscow.  The failure to take Moscow required the invasion plans to be revised.  The only strategic reason for capturing  Leningrad was its role as an important port for supplying northern Russia, needed after the Nazis conquered the Baltic states.   Capturing Moscow was far more important. 

A year later, Hitler made a similar mistake in the Southern at Stalingrad. If the Nazis had avoided Stalingrad and kept moving, they could have advanced to the oilfields and blocked the supply route for lend lease materials  from Iran.  Cutting off the oil and supplies to central Russia would have collapsed the USSR.

Urban warfare is difficult, costly and slow.  Cities are more easily defended than open land.  This slowed the Nazi advance, and this is where the Nazis started their retreat all the way to Berlin, ending the war.   

Another scenario.  What if Hitler had not invaded the USSR and instead waited 2-3 years to develop jet aircraft and other advanced weapons, perhaps even a nuclear warhead? 

[BillyB]

Capturing Moscow was far more important. 

That would be ideal but an army expects the enemy to go for the capital and will prepare for it. As the enemy heads straight to the capital, they will be flanked and surrounded. Germany had to attack cities out of the way to not only prevent from getting flanked, but to draw the Soviet army away from Moscow.

A year later, Hitler made a similar mistake in the Southern at Stalingrad.

Hitler's biggest mistake is not letting his generals do their job. He wasted time, resources, and troops on Stalingrad and Leningrad since it was his personal mission to destroy the cities with the names of the Soviet founders.

What if Hitler had not invaded the USSR and instead waited 2-3 years to develop jet aircraft and other advanced weapons, perhaps even a nuclear warhead? 

I think Hitler attacked at the right time. The Soviet war machine wasn't up to speed. Stalin had to throw men into battle without the proper gear. Many times men were ordered to assault Germans with one rifle being shared by two soldiers and they had 3 rounds of ammo to use. Imagine running in front of a hail of machine gun fire with nothing in your hand but if the man in front of you gets shot and falls, you pick up the rifle and continue running toward the Germans. If you retreat, you will be met with machine gun fire from your own troops.

The Germans slaughtered the Soviets in most battles. Poor decisions by Hitler including starting the campaign too late in the season which had winter doing a number on the Germans helped them lose.

By the end of WWII, the Soviet industrial war machine was almost as good as America's and although they lost more troops than any nation, they ended the war as a superpower. If Hitler waited a few more years, I think he would've had a much tougher fight although he would still have the edge on technology.

[SANDRO43]

Another scenario.  What if Hitler had not invaded the USSR and instead waited 2-3 years to develop jet aircraft and other advanced weapons, perhaps even a nuclear warhead?

"What If" scenarios always lend themselves to wild speculations .

However, IMO Hitler was too prone on leaning on "surprise and strike them hard" (blitzkrieg) that had proven so successful before (Poland, France, etc.) to wait that long, while Stalin's suspicions might have increased and caused him to move in troops from the Far East as he did later, making things more difficult for the Wehrmacht.

[BillyB]

to wait that long, while Stalin's suspicions might have increased and caused him to move in troops from the Far East as he did later, making things more difficult for the Wehrmacht.

Stalin was warned by his spies dozens of times about Hitler plotting to attack. I agree, waiting too long, Stalin may have wised up after finally listening to his spies.

[ML]

Stalin was warned by his spies dozens of times about Hitler plotting to attack. I agree, waiting too long, Stalin may have wised up after finally listening to his spies.

This might have been the same situation with respect to our FBI, CIA, Homeland Security, etc.

After some event . . . it is generally revealed or claimed that warning(s) had been sent and not acted on.

However, the problem is . . . these agencies get thousands of warnings about everything under the sun.  99.9 percent or so don't pan out.

[Larry1]

Stalin was warned by his spies dozens of times about Hitler plotting to attack. I agree, waiting too long, Stalin may have wised up after finally listening to his spies.

This might have been the same situation with respect to our FBI, CIA, Homeland Security, etc.

After some event . . . it is generally revealed or claimed that warning(s) had been sent and not acted on.

However, the problem is . . . these agencies get thousands of warnings about everything under the sun.  99.9 percent or so don't pan out.

The agencies do receive scads of calls, most of which turn out to be duds. But these are calls from members of the public. The 87 warnings stalin received were not from members of the public. They were from 1) soviet foreign intelligence officers, 2) officials who regularly provided the soviets with information about German activity, and 3) British officials. stalin thought the Brits, already at war with Germany, were just trying to get him involved in a war with Germany.  But the first two groups had proved themselves reliable.

stalin was also warned of a major German concentration of forces by Red Army Marshal semyon Timoshenko, who had received word of the massive German buildup from intelligence officers near the German positions. You can't hide 3 million soldiers and their equipment. stalin disregarded all of these warnings, relying instead on Hitler's "word of honor as a head of state" that he would not attack the soviet union.

[BillyB]

This might have been the same situation with respect to our FBI, CIA, Homeland Security, etc.

After some event . . . it is generally revealed or claimed that warning(s) had been sent and not acted on.

However, the problem is . . . these agencies get thousands of warnings about everything under the sun.  99.9 percent or so don't pan out.

True, but losing a few citizens due to a lack of good judgment and preparation is a small sin compared to losing a country. Stalin's incompetence cost millions of Soviet lives and nearly lost the USSR.

[Boethius]

This might have been the same situation with respect to our FBI, CIA, Homeland Security, etc.

After some event . . . it is generally revealed or claimed that warning(s) had been sent and not acted on.

However, the problem is . . . these agencies get thousands of warnings about everything under the sun.  99.9 percent or so don't pan out.

But Stalin's dismissal was based on the fact he believed the Germans would not betray the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact.

[krimster2]

"losing one life is a tragedy, losing millions is a statistic"

Iosef S.

[SANDRO43]

But Stalin's dismissal was based on the fact he believed the Germans would not betray the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact.

Which was rather naive , considering what Hitler had written in his Mein Kampf (1925) about the German Lebensraum:

We take up where we broke off six hundred years ago. We stop the endless German movement to the south and west, and turn our gaze toward the land in the East. At long last, we break off the colonial and commercial policy of the pre–War period and shift to the soil policy of the future. If we speak of soil in Europe today, we can primarily have in mind only Russia and her vassal border states.

And his previous annexations (Austria, Czechoslovakia).

[BillyB]

Iosef S.

I thought it was Iosif. If Stalin just killed one man, he'd be labeled a murderer. Because he killed millions, he was labeled a hero.

[Larry1]

Another scenario.  What if Hitler had not invaded the USSR and instead waited 2-3 years to develop jet aircraft and other advanced weapons, perhaps even a nuclear warhead?

I think Hitler attacked at the right time. The Soviet war machine wasn't up to speed. Stalin had to throw men into battle without the proper gear. Many times men were ordered to assault Germans with one rifle being shared by two soldiers and they had 3 rounds of ammo to use...

By the end of WWII, the Soviet industrial war machine was almost as good as America's and although they lost more troops than any nation, they ended the war as a superpower. If Hitler waited a few more years, I think he would've had a much tougher fight although he would still have the edge on technology.

I wanted to address these points earlier but needed to put my hands on a book so that I could double-check some numbers.

I heard a lecture from the historian shelby Foote. He was the star of the Ken Burns miniseries on The Civil War. In the Q&A following the lecture someone asked him a question to get his opinion on whether a certain course of action by the Confederates might have resulted in them prevailing. Foote responded that that is the blindest alley you'll ever go down. It's extremely difficult to deal with counterfactuals.

Waiting a few years to invade probably would have given the Germans time to develop jet fighters, something they were only able to do near the end of the war and could not produce in the numbers necessary to obtain air supremacy. A few years would not have been enough for the Germans to get the A bomb. We found out only after the war ended that their nuclear program was not terribly far advanced.

Billy is correct that the soviet union was an industrial powerhouse. They manufactured huge numbers of tanks, planes, and artillery pieces during the war.

In the late 1930s Hitler ordered an ambitious program of arms building. It was so costly that it threatened to harm the German economy. Hitler's capable finance minister, Hjalmar schacht, warned Hitler about this, but Hitler dismissed his warnings. The German economy was stretched to the breaking point. Hitler may not have had the wherewithal for a bigger program of arms building.

Hitler was already embroiled in a war with the British.  It was madness to attack the soviets and add another powerful enemy.

[HoundDaddyLee]

Larry,


How cool you got to hear a lecture from Shelby Foote...


Yes, trying to predict outcomes from alternate military decisions is impossible. Would the Civil War have ended if General Lee had listened to General Longstreet and not attacked "The Angle" on the Third Day (Pickett's Charge). Or if he had decided after Day 1 that his enemy held the high ground and withdrawn. If the Confederates had won Gettysburg, would the Union have sued for peace? We don't know.


Also we don't know what the world would be like if Hitler had decided to not attack the Soviet Union, or if Japanese had not attacked Pearl Harbor. How long would it have taken the US to enter the war? I was watching a documentary the other night on TV and it stated that Churchhill cancelled an assassination attempt on Hitler late in the war as he felt that Hitler was such a poor military strategist that having him in charge was better for the allies.


Interesting for discussion though.


HDL

[Larry1]

Larry,

How cool you got to hear a lecture from Shelby Foote...


I was watching a documentary the other night on TV and it stated that Churchhill cancelled an assassination attempt on Hitler late in the war as he felt that Hitler was such a poor military strategist that having him in charge was better for the allies.


Interesting for discussion though.


HDL

The lecture occurred not long after the Ken Burns documentary aired. When shelby Foote walked to the dais he was met with tremendous applause, more like you would see with a very popular politician rather than a historian.

Hitler was a remarkably bad war leader. He ordered Hermann Goering, the head of the German air force, to produce a huge number of airplanes.  The number was just unrealistic when compared to the resources devoted to produce them. Goering just produced planes that were smaller and cheaper to build than the planes that were actually needed to attain the air force's objectives. Goering told an aid that Hitler asked him what number of planes was being produced. He didn't ask him what kinds of planes made up that number.