Ukrainian rocket boosters aide North Korea's nuke program.

[BillyB]

Come to find out, a plant near the fighting in Ukraine has created rocket boosters for North Korean missiles. Experts were stumped on how N Korea had advanced so quickly in rocket technology. Now they know. The rocket boosters were either sold by the manufacturer in Ukraine or by Russia as Russia keeps a good stock of those rocket boosters.

If the Ukrainian company sold them to N Korea, they did so illegally so the question becomes who helped them smuggle rocket boosters out of Ukraine? If the rocket boosters went through Crimea or Russia to get to it's destination, then Russia may have had a hand in helping N Korea get on the fast track of being able to hit America. I doubt the Ukrainian government helped sneak those out of the country considering they want America's help.

The Ukrainian government needs to shut down that plant ASAP if that plant is still in an area they control. Of course the rocket boosters could be coming from Russia and the plant owner is innocent.

http://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/14/world/asia/north-korea-missiles-ukraine-factory.html

[msmob]

I first read of this story in the Russian press ... thought it was 'bollox' ....   Haven't read anything, yet to change my mind..

[JayH]

“This information doesn’t have a leg to stand on, is provocative in its content, and most likely provoked by Russian special services to cover their own crimes,” the press service of the NSDC quoted Turchynov as saying on August 14.

Ukraine has never supplied missile technology to North Korea

The Ukrainian defense and aerospace complexes did not supply weapons and military technology to North Korea, and false information disseminated by some foreign media about the alleged transfer of missile technology by Yuzhmash to the DPRK is most likely triggered by Russian special services, NSDC Secretary Oleksandr Turchynov has said.

http://www.kyivpost.com/ukraine-politics/turchynov-ukraine-never-supplied-missile-technology-north-korea.html?fref=gc

[JayH]

The deputy minister wrote that the article in the New York Times with the corresponding allegations was mainly based on the words of  “an expert in missile technology, who had in 1995-2001 led a program in Russia, aimed at dismantling long-range missiles." He also believes that this cannot be a pure coincidence. "It turns out that most of the ‘Western experts’ criticizing Ukraine have one way or another been associated with Russia in their past. This is no conspiracy theory but at least it’s interesting," he added.

Report on Ukrainian missile technology transfer to N.Korea based on statements by expert with Russia ties – Ministry of Information
Secretary of the National Security and Defense Council of Ukraine Oleksandr Turchynov that the Ukrainian defense industry had not supplied rocket engines and missile technology to the North Korean regime. The state-owned Yuzhmash has stated that it has never had any links with North Korean space or defense-purpose missile programs.

Read more on UNIAN: http://www.unian.info/politics/2081961-statements-on-ukrainian-missile-technology-transfer-to-nkorea-based-on-report-by-expert-with-russia-ties-ministry-of-information.html

Point in missile scandal with the DPRK:
Ukraine has brought an iron argument 08/15/2017 Admin In fact, scandalous engines in Ukraine have never even been produced The engines of RD 250, which, according to the expert of the newspaper  The New York Times , were equipped with DPRK ballistic missiles, have never been produced in Ukraine and are purely Russian development.

 This was written on his Facebook page by the head of the department of the Main Department of Information Policy of the Presidential Administration Volodymyr Gorkovenko. "The series of engines RD 250 - includes engines RD 253 and its modifications: RD-254 and RD 257. And they have always been produced in Russia, at the NPO Energomash," he said.

According to the representative of the AP, the Soviet missiles R-27, which the Americans called the Ukrainian design, were actually developed in the 80's in Russia at the IC "Vimpel".
"It's a lie that there is a statement that Ukraine until 2014 produced Russia's SS-18 missiles better known as Satan. The production of the SS-18 on the Yuzhmash was further reduced by Gorbachev, and since then the Ukrainian plant has not manufactured any missiles. And those who were in the 90's successfully cut into scrap ", - said the representative of the AP.
Earlier, New York Times reported that North Korea's success in testing intercontinental missiles capable of flying into the United States was made possible by the acquisition of powerful missile engines through the black market.

They were supposedly made at a plant in Ukraine historically connected with the Russian missile program. And the secretary of the National Security and Defense Council Alexander Turchinov immediately stated that the enterprises of the Ukrainian defense and aerospace complex did not supply weapons and military technology in the DPRK.

Also, deputy minister of information policy Dmitry Zolotukhin pointed out that the scandalous publication in the New York Times of supposedly Ukrainian missiles in the DPRK is largely based on the comments of one expert who headed the program for the reduction of missile weapons in Russia.

Источник: http://www.amn.com.ua/podiyi/krapka-v-raketnomu-skandali-z-kndr-ukrayina-pryvela-zaliznyj-argument/

[BillyB]

Also, deputy minister of information policy Dmitry Zolotukhin pointed out that the scandalous publication in the New York Times of supposedly Ukrainian missiles in the DPRK is largely based on the comments of one expert who headed the program for the reduction of missile weapons in Russia.

It seems Dmitry doesn't understand the information from the article comes from a photograph released by North Korea of Kim Jong Un standing next to one of his newest missiles. It's clear N Korea's latest missiles has rocket boosters that a plant in Ukraine manufactures or that is in Russia's inventory. It's not hard to believe since their missile technology has significantly advanced recently.

[JayH]

It seems Dmitry doesn't understand the information from the article comes from a photograph released by North Korea of Kim Jong Un standing next to one of his newest missiles. It's clear N Korea's latest missiles has rocket boosters that a plant in Ukraine manufactures or that is in Russia's inventory. It's not hard to believe since their missile technology has significantly advanced recently.

As it happens BB  -- not so long ago -on this forum  -- I outlined a scenario just like this.
It was in response to one of those inane America first comments made by the blind ignorant who have no concept of globalisation.

Given the failure of the US over the Budapest agreement ,given the lunatic President believing America first means  stuff the rest of the world, everyman for himself as a general philosophy to follow ,why would Ukraine not say -- we behaved as a good world citizen and sort to promote peace in the world by disarming and giving up Ukrainian nuclear capacity -- and look what it did to us!!
So-- in seeing that a nuclear capacity could guarantee Ukrainian sovereignty  -- why would Ukraine not seek to re-establish itself with nuclear capacity? Do a deal with the North Koreans to help them with what they need  eg missile  expertise and  the miniaturisation of the nuclear devices .In return-- get what they need .
Of course there are other countries with nuclear capacity that may have been helping Ukraine recently !There have been numerous rumours floating about that for well over a year -- and Dnipro  is at the centre of those "stories " !!

[msmob]

'Ri-ight'

So the 'answer' to being shafted is to alienate those who failed to protect you and the aggressor - by helping a despotic regime ?

[Boethius]

The way the rocket programme was structured in Soviet times, no one factory would have the expertise to give this information to North Korea. It was the same in post Soviet times. No one at that factory would have expertise in the nuclear component.

[BillyB]

The way the rocket programme was structured in Soviet times, no one factory would have the expertise to give this information to North Korea. It was the same in post Soviet times. No one at that factory would have expertise in the nuclear component.

Rocket boosters were smuggled out of Ukraine or Russia and sent to North Korea. No nuclear components were involved.

JayH, America is giving non lethal assistance to Ukraine. I doubt the Ukrainian government is involved in what just happened. Risking all Ukraine over North Korea and a few bucks is plain stupid. I agree with you Ukraine has the right to pursue the means to defend itself but North Korea can barely make nukes for themselves at the moment so they don't have extras to give away. They need to take care of #1 and after they do that, then we need to worry about them selling to terrorists around the world.

America knows where those rockets landed in the ocean. We can bring one up and look at serial numbers on the parts. We can look at the documents from the factory in Ukraine that manufactures the boosters. We then can determine if the booster was sold to Russia. If that is the case, the factory owners may not be in trouble and Russia may get sanctioned again. If the factory can't account for the boosters North Korea have, they will be in big trouble. Trump may pressure the Ukrainian government to shut the factory down and arrest the owners and engineers. Stopping North Korea's nuke program is one of Trump's priorities.

[Anotherkiwi]

Rocket boosters were smuggled out of Ukraine or Russia and sent to North Korea. No nuclear components were involved.

Billy, the whole point of the Ukrainian response was: "We don't make those rocket boosters, so how could we have sent them to North Korea????????"  If true, they MUST have come from Russia!

America knows where those rockets landed in the ocean. We can bring one up and look at serial numbers on the parts. We can look at the documents from the factory in Ukraine that manufactures the boosters.

But they (supposedly) DON'T manufacture them, so there won't BE any paperwork from Ukraine - and it would seem doubtful that Russia would release anything which might tie them to North Korea.

[ML]

America knows where those rockets landed in the ocean. We can bring one up and look at serial numbers on the parts.

This is a great idea; is it possible ?

But . . . wouldn't the NK's be like auto thieves and file off the serial numbers?

Or probably who ever sold to NK would have filed off all identifying info already.  This isn't rocket science . . . oh wait !!

[JayH]

Billy, the whole point of the Ukrainian response was: "We don't make those rocket boosters, so how could we have sent them to North Korea????????"  If true, they MUST have come from Russia!

But they (supposedly) DON'T manufacture them, so there won't BE any paperwork from Ukraine - and it would seem doubtful that Russia would release anything which might tie them to North Korea.

Thankyou --   at least you can read !

For those that seem to have a problem understanding speculating is not stating a fact -- it is a theoretical possibility !

Sometimes fact can prove stranger than fiction !

[JayH]

I often laugh at getting castigated at providing links to articles--  and when opinion or assessment is offered being asked to show a link !
The linked article below shows how tenuous some articles published and relied on by some are so shallow in actual content  -- read  it BB !
This is an extensive examination of the article itself -- and why it is most likely incorrect.

Problems with the NYT article on Ukrainian rocket engines in North Korea – a detailed analysis

The editorial board of the Ukrainian IT outlet AIN.UA analyzed the text of The New York Times article, the sources on which it relies, and laid out why the article should not be trusted. Euromaidan Press offers you an English translation.

http://euromaidanpress.com/2017/08/16/problems-with-the-nyt-article-on-ukrainian-rocket-engines-in-north-korea-a-detailed-analysis/

[msmob]

Of course there are other countries with nuclear capacity that may have been helping Ukraine recently !There have been numerous rumours floating about that for well over a year -- and Dnipro  is at the centre of those "stories " !!

JayH - IF this  'speculation' came to be true - you'd be claiming. " I told you so .... "

 'Sorry' - I read your story as ' JayH has his ear to the ground and has heard rumours' ..... when you got jumped on - you distanced yourself ...

[JayH]

JayH - IF this  'speculation' came to be true - you'd be claiming. " I told you so .... "

 'Sorry' - I read your story as ' JayH has his ear to the ground and has heard rumours' ..... when you got jumped on - you distanced yourself ...

For the record --  there is 2 parts to what I said --the first was a  theoretical situation I used here on forum in reply to an "America First" and only type comment.
The second is something I have heard being floated -and not by conspiracy theorists . Full stop.

[msmob]

Ri-ight, so you ARE suggesting the story has 'legs'  ?!  ....

[JayH]

Ri-ight, so you ARE suggesting the story has 'legs'  ?!  ....

Euromaidan article is a neat rebuttal of NYT story.

[BillyB]

I often laugh at getting castigated at providing links to articles--  and when opinion or assessment is offered being asked to show a link !
The linked article below shows how tenuous some articles published and relied on by some are so shallow in actual content  -- read  it BB !
This is an extensive examination of the article itself -- and why it is most likely incorrect.

Problems with the NYT article on Ukrainian rocket engines in North Korea – a detailed analysis

The editorial board of the Ukrainian IT outlet AIN.UA analyzed the text of The New York Times article, the sources on which it relies, and laid out why the article should not be trusted. Euromaidan Press offers you an English translation.

http://euromaidanpress.com/2017/08/16/problems-with-the-nyt-article-on-ukrainian-rocket-engines-in-north-korea-a-detailed-analysis/

Article is an opinion of a few IT guys. They're definitely wrong. I like the ending where it said the factory Yuzhmash could not provide the actual data on the presence of RD-250 engines and other parts on its premises when asked by AIN.UA. What's the problem? You either have the rocket boosters or you don't. Is it possible the paperwork got burned and parts got buried when the NY Times article came out?

at least you can read !

For those that seem to have a problem understanding speculating is not stating a fact -- it is a theoretical possibility !

You have way too much faith in Ukrainian media and Ukrainian figure heads. Even if someone can read, Ukrainian media isn't always based in facts. I am not saying Ukraine is guilty of supplying boosters to North Korea but a lot of BS is coming out of their mouths. I'll post facts below. Read my post before watching the video at the end. The owner to the rights of the video is blocking it from being watch from RWD. Hit the "watch on YouTube" button to see it.

This is a great idea; is it possible ?

But . . . wouldn't the NK's be like auto thieves and file off the serial numbers?

Or probably who ever sold to NK would have filed off all identifying info already.  This isn't rocket science . . . oh wait !!

Some of those part numbers may be in tight areas and North Korea better not disassemble every booster because they probably don't have an extra supply gaskets and O-rings to put it back together right. Also bolts and nuts need to be tighten down to certain specs. One mistake, the rocket blows up.

Anyway, I do know North Korea can have brain farts. One of them is publishing a photo of the illegally smuggled boosters which is going to get someone in trouble. Another is failing to alter the external features of the booster. Cameras exist. If you rob a bank, you wear a mask. Smuggle a booster, put a mask on it. They failed and now we know somebody is violating international law by helping North Korea's nuke/ICBM program.

Billy, the whole point of the Ukrainian response was: "We don't make those rocket boosters, so how could we have sent them to North Korea????????"  If true, they MUST have come from Russia!

But they (supposedly) DON'T manufacture them, so there won't BE any paperwork from Ukraine - and it would seem doubtful that Russia would release anything which might tie them to North Korea.

Here's the Ukrainian factory, that's in question, website. Check out their products. They currently make rocket boosters. Newer models of course but they made the old model North Korea is using.

http://www.yuzhmash.com/presscenter/news/new?id=292#


Yuzhmash factory refuting the NY Times story below

http://www.yuzhmash.com/presscenter/news/new?id=303


UN report stating North Korea tried to steal secrets from that factory a few years ago. Now why would North Korea do that if they didn't have any rocket technology there worth stealing?

http://www.securitycouncilreport.org/atf/cf/%7B65BFCF9B-6D27-4E9C-8CD3-CF6E4FF96FF9%7D/s_2013_337.pdf


The Ukrainian INITIAL response was made without reviewing facts. They lied saying the boosters weren't made in Ukraine. The factory owner in question says he didn't make the boosters North Korea used.....but he did years ago.


American Intelligence agencies say the boosters were made in Ukraine. The photos clearly show the model and it matches the model that was made in Ukraine. There is so much evidence out right now that Ukraine can't deny anymore where those boosters were manufactured.


The article and video below came out today. JayH, this is especially for you. Video is translated with English subtitles but you know the native language, right? During todays press conference, the Ukrainian Space Agency chief, Yuriy Radchenko, admits the boosters were made in Ukraine at the factory Yuzhmash in Dnipro, which is the factory the NY Times article said it was made. They did say it was an old program and that their only customer was Russia. Only Russia and China has the technology to create the rocket fuel used by these boosters.


Somebody is giving North Korea A LOT of Ukrainian made boosters to practice with and A LOT of highly controlled by government rocket fuel specifically made for certain rocket boosters to help North Korea make this world a much more dangerous place. It's safe to say Russia and China aren't on board with making America or the World Great. Hopefully Trump starts getting it. Secretary of State Tillerson last week said China and Russia are enablers of North Korea's weapons program. I suspect he knew about this before the NY Times story came out.


http://www.trtworld.com/europe/ukraine-s-space-agency-says-north-korean-missile-engine-made-for-russia-9666

[JayH]

BB -- you better let the US govt know what  it is getting wrong.
btw --why bother posting what amounts to facts explained in linked articles -- with a much better and wider explanation than your abbreviated plagiarism !


North Korea's New High-Performance Missile Engines Likely Weren't Made in Russia or Ukraine
However, U.S. intelligence has a good idea of the kind of engine North Korea is using in its new long-range missiles.

U.S. government sources with knowledge of the latest intelligence on North Korea’s ballistic missile and nuclear programs confirmed the assessment to The Diplomat, which supports part of an open-source finding released this week by Michael Elleman of the International Institute for Strategic Studies.

http://thediplomat.com/2017/08/north-koreas-new-high-performance-missile-engines-likely-werent-made-in-russia-or-ukraine/

[BillyB]

 Title of the article is misleading. The anonymous intelligence sources made their comments weeks or months before the head of the Ukrainian Space agency had his press conference yesterday  saying the boosters were indeed made in Ukraine but sold to Russia.  I don't know why you're still determined to find articles saying the boosters weren't made in Ukraine. Don't make fake news and mislead people.  Accept the facts. Facts can be stranger than fiction.

[JayH]

Title of the article is misleading. The anonymous intelligence sources made their comments weeks or months before the head of the Ukrainian Space agency had his press conference yesterday  saying the boosters were indeed made in Ukraine but sold to Russia. I don't know why you're still determined to find articles saying the boosters weren't made in Ukraine. Don't make fake news and mislead people.  Accept the facts. Facts can be stranger than fiction.

I don't find articles--they find me !!

I have already pointed out the stranger than fiction stuff!

[JayH]

Here is another one for ya BB !!


North Korean missiles and Ukraine

There are practically no specifics in the article — one assumption leads to another. Perhaps the North Korean engines are based on Soviet engines. Perhaps these engines were obtained or stolen — it could be in Ukraine or Russia, we do not know.

Perhaps they were stolen in Ukraine because poor people live in this country and they can be bribed easily. Perhaps the warehouse manager was given money, who then removed the necessary engines. Or perhaps an employee of the Yuzhnoye State Design Office did it. Perhaps this did not happen in Ukraine but in Russia. Or perhaps it did not happen at all.

This is because the investigation itself is based on the theory that North Korean scientists could not have created the necessary technologies in such a short time. But this is an assumption that is based solely on the author’s ideas of the level of development in authoritarian countries like the Democratic People’s Republic of Korea (DPRK). However, based on our own experience, we know that in such countries money is spared for everything except the military-industrial complex.

http://euromaidanpress.com/2017/08/17/north-korean-missiles-and-ukraine/

[BillyB]

There are practically no specifics in the article — one assumption leads to another. Perhaps the North Korean engines are based on Soviet engines. Perhaps these engines were obtained or stolen — it could be in Ukraine or Russia, we do not know.

The rocket boosters were designed in Russia and manufactured in Ukraine. The Ukrainian government is the least likely suspect in the sale of the boosters to North Korea.


Maybe the Ukrainian factory owner or low paid engineers sold them? Maybe the Russians sold them. Maybe they were stolen and underground mafia stole them but I'm not buying that story. They may be able to steal one or two of those massive boosters but North Korea is shooting rockets off regularly as if they have plenty in reserve for war. Those things didn't get stolen and driven down the road unseen. I think the Ukrainian plant or the Russian government had a hand in selling those boosters since either party would have the capability to own a large stockpile of boosters. Also only two countries, China and Russia, have the knowhow to manufacture the rocket fuel for those boosters.


Nobody is going to convince me that North Korea manufactured the boosters and the specialize fuel themselves. During the Cold War, the Soviets had better boosters that put out an insane amount of thrust. Rocket science is extremely difficult and they were better at it than America was when it came to boosters. Even some American rockets today use Russian boosters. If America couldn't develop as good a booster as the Soviets/Russians, how in the world did North Korea get so smart overnight?

[calmissile]

The rocket boosters were designed in Russia and manufactured in Ukraine. The Ukrainian government is the least likely suspect in the sale of the boosters to North Korea.


Maybe the Ukrainian factory owner or low paid engineers sold them? Maybe the Russians sold them. Maybe they were stolen and underground mafia stole them but I'm not buying that story. They may be able to steal one or two of those massive boosters but North Korea is shooting rockets off regularly as if they have plenty in reserve for war. Those things didn't get stolen and driven down the road unseen. I think the Ukrainian plant or the Russian government had a hand in selling those boosters since either party would have the capability to own a large stockpile of boosters. Also only two countries, China and Russia, have the knowhow to manufacture the rocket fuel for those boosters.


Nobody is going to convince me that North Korea manufactured the boosters and the specialize fuel themselves. During the Cold War, the Soviets had better boosters that put out an insane amount of thrust. Rocket science is extremely difficult and they were better at it than America was when it came to boosters. Even some American rockets today use Russian boosters. If America couldn't develop as good a booster as the Soviets/Russians, how in the world did North Korea get so smart overnight?

Nobody is going to convince me that North Korea manufactured the boosters and the specialize fuel themselves.

I won't try to convince you then   Actually, I would not be surprised if they do manufacture them.  Surely they must have had help in the design/test phase, but nevertheless they could be building them in NK.

 Rocket science is extremely difficult and they were better at it than America was when it came to boosters.

Don't exactly agree with your statement.  It would be more accurate to state that Russia was focused on High Lift Liquid engines when the US was concentrating more on reliable solid propellant engines.  Did you forget that the US developed the Saturn rocket?

Even some American rockets today use Russian boosters.

Last I heard, we are phasing out the use of old Russian engines.  Your inference is misleading.  We were/are using Soviet liquid engines simply because of economics.  The cost tradeoff between buying the engines from Russia vs the cost of developing a new engine with a low rate production did not make economic sense.  It was not because we are/were inferior to the Russians in rocket engine technology.

If America couldn't develop as good a booster as the Soviets/Russians, how in the world did North Korea get so smart overnight?

Already addressed the USA vs Russia booster differences above.  As to how North Korea got so smart overnight?  We don't know yet how much help they had and from where.  To be determined later. 

One item of interest in the stories deals with the fuels.  I don't necessarily agree with the conclusion that only Russia and China could make the fuel.  Unlike our old Kerosene and Liquid Oxygen fuels we used for many years, the articles state that these Russian engines are using hypergolic fuels.  I was not aware of that nor can I confirm it.  The USA has used hypergolic fuels in some rocket engines for many years.  I don't remember off hand of large boosters using it, as it is extremely dangerous.  The fuel question is something worth investigating.  Any country with a chemical plant can make hypergolic fuels.  The big problem is in the manufacturing and storage process and not blowing things up. The chemistry is no secret so why would North Korea not be able to manufacture the fuel?

Another matter of interest from this casual observer, is watching the various launches from North Korea. It appears that numerous technologies are being used.  Some of the launches look like they might be solid propellant engines.  Also, the launch platforms are different.  I noticed some of the launches were "Cold Launched".  What this means is that the rocket is pushed out of a tube with gas (normally from a pyrotechnic gas generator) and the engine does not ignite until the rocket reaches near zero G's.  Others are "Hot Launched" from a ground pad or erector.   The USA has a lot of experience in both methods.  Peacekeeper (MX) was a cold launched system, while Minuteman is a "Hot Launched" system.  Our submarines use the "Cold Launch" system.  The primary reason for spending the extra money on a "Cold Launch" system is to preserve the launch site.  Either because you want the capability to reload the launcher or in the case of submarines you don't want the damage that would be caused by a hot launch with the engine burning in the tubes.  The acoustic environment would be terrible also.

[BillyB]

Yes, the US made the Saturn rocket. A huge rocket with a lot of thrusters to get a tiny payload into space. Won't cut it in today's world.

Russian boosters are cheaper but that isn't the only reason we use them. Russian boosters are better when it comes to thrust. I got my info from a friend who works Boeing's NASA division. A couple of articles below from 2016. We tried to ban Russian boosters based off sanctions but Congress had to lift the ban. America won't have reliable alternatives for years to come. If we ban Russian boosters, we won't get many satellites into orbit.

 North Korea can't get to Russia's level and surpass America overnight when it comes to booster technology. Blueprints alone isn't going to get North Korea a booster. They need to understand the sophisticated metallurgy involved in building booster parts. Can't use any kind of low grade metal when creating parts. Too much heat and pressures are involved. Also they would need the right manufacturing and machining tools. 10,000 parts and one mistake, the whole missile blows up. Even reverse engineering isn't easy. America buys Russian boosters yet we can't figure out how to make the same when the product is in our hands. North Korea smarter than us? I don't think so.

Also, what are the chances North Korea perfected the fuel for that type of booster at the same time they perfected the booster? Put any fuel but gasoline in a gas engine and it'll probably run crappy. Fuel must be designed for specific engines. Can't fuel a rocket up with diesel or Jack Daniels and think it's going to perform. People want to take America down. Why not help North Korea and let them do the dirty work? We need to find those people or nation/s.


http://www.nbcnews.com/mach/space/why-does-u-s-use-russian-rockets-launch-its-satellites-n588526


http://www.npr.org/2016/02/08/465974255/why-the-u-s-still-has-no-viable-alternatives-to-russian-rocket-boosters