Hard work -- How can I explain this to my Russian wife?

[Journeyman]

Is there any parallel for men or women in the FSU regarding the intense pace at work that some of us experience in the United States?  If so, even though I have been traveling to the FSU and interacting with Russian folks since 2000, I have not yet seen any corollaries in their country.  I think that I must have just missed something.

I work in a professional environment (executives, lawyers, CPAs, bankers, etc.), and run a corporate division with an annual volume of $100 million and growing.  The people with whom I interact, including outside professionals and direct reports, all work 55+ hours per week on average.  Sometimes more, rarely less.  All are working in 4th gear constantly, and many go into overdrive for hours or days at a time.  Rarely, rarely, can anybody coast, even for a day.  One lawyer (outside counsel) with whom I work closely works nearly ALL his waking hours, and is never disconnected fully from his practice, and ends up working regularly on his "vacations" (for which I have had to apologize to him from time to time -- for keeping him so busy).  I'm sure this is a familiar theme to some of you who are reading this.

I am finding that my Russian wife just doesn't seem to understand that when I am at the office or on the road, I am really working hard.  I am not playing golf, not sitting at a restaurant tipping a few with other businessmen, and not just hanging out with the boss.  It just seems that she doesn't have any frame of reference for understanding this kind of work.  Granted, she knows a few Russian WOMEN back in Ukraine who are sometimes working 2 or 3 jobs to make ends meet.  However, it doesn't seem that she thinks it possible that a successful MAN actually "works" hard for a living.  Sometimes very hard.  I get the impression that she thinks that a man who wears a suit to the office has somehow "made it" and can thereafter simply "coast" once he arrives at his place of work.  She will think nothing of launching into a lenthy, difficult conversation on the telephone in the middle of my work day, as though I have nothing better to do.   If  I tell her I am really busy, but want to continue the conversation later when I get home, she sometimes responds ......"how can you be so busy, you aren't a mother with a child."  BTW, we don't have children (not yet).  She is in her early thirties and has never had what we would call a career, or had steady employment for years at a time.  Of course, simply that is a rather difficult thing to come by for many Ukrainians.  In her prior marriage, she was essentially a "kept woman."  She admits that she is a little spoiled, but I would not regard her wants or attitudes toward material things as excessive.  Still, I keep thinking that she has to understand that a man doesn't make good money by simply "showing up" for work. 

Naturally, I keep finding that her frame of reference for many things is limited, of course, to those things in her prior experiences in Ukraine.  However, even with respect to successful men in Ukriane, she seems to think that they just "enjoy" their status, cheat on their wives with younger girls, and drink expensive vodka and cognac, etc., but not really work.  Maybe that is true?  A continually vigorous pace of work just seems to be "foreign" to her -- except when she worked in her vegetable garden at her parents dacha, working all day long tending to the plants and vegetables.  However, I have also heard of similar stories of Russian women who have come to this country, getting an opportunity to work at either an entry level (say, a bank teller), or perhaps even a significant level (say, a physician), and then are shocked to find how intense the work situation is here -- fast-paced and unrelenting pressure.  True, nobody puts a gun to the heads of people in my position -- to work in this environment.  But many people would like to enjoy some of the benefits that come from this kind of work.  Including my wife. 

So, again, the question:  Is there a parallel for men in the FSU with respect to this kind of work pace?  How can I help her understand what I experience when working?  To what in Russian life can I refer to in order to help her develop an understanding of this aspect of life -- other than her vegetable garden?

Journeyman

[Shadow]

Journeyman, you need to look around you at the office and ask yourself how many of the men you see have successful marriages.
Would it be impossible for you to cut down the hours to 40 and still make a comfortable living ?
Russians work to live, they do not live to work. That means probably you will not find an example.

[Ben Armen]

Journeyman,

America is the great country it is because its people works harder than anybody else.  You have chosen to fly someone in from a foreign country, to be your life mate.  Is she going to stay home for 55 hours?  Does she drive? Did she come over to get the left overs?  You are very successful because you are a very hard worker.  If you were fulfilled socially, you wouldn't take extended vacations 5000 miles away from home.  I applaud you on your success, but a new marriage is hard work, you weren't going to give her a mop and see you at 8pm were you?  I'm sure she is a beautiful woman, you just caught a fish, now you have to clean it.  That's the family side of the equation.  Here is the business side of the equation... If you screw this one up, she gets HALF!  Best wishes my friend.

Ben Armen

[Turboguy]

It sounds to me more like she is bored and lonely than anything.  Does she attend ESL classes or have any interest in going back to school or is there anything you can come up with to keep her busier?

VWRW spends about 10 hours a day studying and keeps busy so it is not a problem for me to work long hours when I need to.   I am probably around 80 or so hours a week, sometimes more.  If it were creating a problem in my homelife I would work less.   My wife and my marriage are my top priority but it is just not a problem for us.

Sometimes being busy is not the same as working effeciently.   Do some reading on time management and you may find you can cut back on your work hours and get more done.  I don't think this is much help but it is all the thoughts I have.

[BC]

It all boils down to priorities..

My feeling is that the 'pace' of life in RU is very similar to that here in IT.  Personal comes before business.

I personally could not work in the dog-eat-dog corporate environment and would rather settle on a smaller house, a simpler lifestyle and more time with family than being chained to the desk.

I see this as a cry for attention. I have received similar reactions from my wife and have since curbed my hours a good deal. I work from home, and do still put in a lot of hours but at least can spread my free time around a bit and am there when my wife asks me to taste the sauce or needs a few minutes of personal time together.

You may not be her first priority (kids), but she will find ways to make herself your first priority.  

fwiw

One suggestion is to talk talk talk about it together and realize that you do have choices.

Excellent topic by the way...

[BC]

If it were creating a problem in my homelife I would work less.   My wife and my marriage are my top priority but it is just not a problem for us.

Turbo,

Some simply do not have the luxury (and sometimes necessity) of stepping out of the workplace for personal matters.  IIRC You've said in the past that your business practically runs itself anyway. That's a perfect environment.

I can only imagine that it can get really really tough otherwise.

[diverboy70]

It all boils down to priorities..

My feeling is that the 'pace' of life in RU is very similar to that here in IT.  Personal comes before business.

I personally could not work in the dog-eat-dog corporate environment and would rather settle on a smaller house, a simpler lifestyle and more time with family than being chained to the desk.

Excellent topic by the way...

Spot on!

J. and I already have had some discussions about this subject. Right now I don't care so much about the hours. But I told her that if we will have children in the future I want to be a part of their life, and that means that the job can't have first priority during that time.

She also, earlier working as an au-pair, saw the downside of working too long hours. The parents in the family not having any power left to give to their children attention when they came home at night.

[Blues Fairy]

There certainly are men (and women) in FSU who work 55+ weeks and understand the demands of high-earning, high-intensity career.  I cannot speak for Ukraine but in Moscow, most corporate jobs require some overtime and if you are on the eve of a major meeting or running the end-of-quarter marathon, you will work a few non-stop 14-hour days without lunch.  Some people who live outside of town and stand for 2-3 hours in traffic jams to get to/from work, practically don't see their families.  Some guys would even rent a small apartment in the center and stay in it for 5 work days, then go home for weekends to spend time with their wives and kids in a relaxed suburban atmosphere.

In case of your wife, she either has not seen any of her close circle work like that, or simply wants more attention and/or employment.  Sending her to school would be a good solution.   

[bgreed]

Knowing people both here in the US and in Europe in most cases you will find that here in the US too many of us live to work and it is that over whelming work ethic that makes the fortunes that are here.  However in europe you will find more of the attitude of work to live.  Spending more time with family and friends rather than being so totally work focused and from my experience when on vacation they are on vacation not taking anything of work with them.

When I first started writting to women in the FSU and described my usual work week many times the response was "when do you rest?" We in the US are seen by the rest of the world as a little too obsessed with work.

[I/O]

You guys miss the point. The poster never said she was complaining for lack of attention due to his work commitments, he asked for a Russian (FSU) reference point to help explain to her. BTW, Journeyman, you gotchaself a classic. I know exactly what you are speaking of. Mrs I/O is slowly catching on but it takes time.

To answer your question, I think your best reference is the emergency ward at a large hospital in Russia. That is about the only place I can think of that works with any intensity. B/F with all due respect, IMO Russian workers are lazy by comparison to some others. They do long hours but wouldn't know what a days work was if it bit them on the butt. Russia's historic economic woes are not all the fault of the government. How many times have I heard a Russian complain about the low salary they receive. When you suggest to them a part time job in the evening in a bar or similar to earn a little extra they turn green.

If, as everyone has jumped to the conclusion, she is complaining regarding lack of attention or time together, then yes you need to give a bit too and fix that, but the reality is, you need to make a living and she will ultimately have to fit into that one way or another. Believe me, I have had to hand out some fairly tough words to Mrs I/O on the value to our life of my work. Since she started working herself, she is starting to "Get it", but it is a process.

It is not illogical when you think about it because most guys seen to be successful in the east have achieved a fair amount of that success without hard work. I think you understand what I am referring to. Watch the restaurants etc around lunch time in Kiev or Moscow. That will be her picture of success. As we know, the reality in our countries is very different. Russia to an extent, thinks itself is slightly similar to Europe in so far as it thinks it has made it's money, in other words it runs largely on old money streams. America, Aus and others are still busy making theirs, in other words it is relatively new money or new wealth, the difference being, some of the Euros forgot how to make new money and were left behind in the process and are now trying to figure out how to catch up. All of these things feed into their thinking.

Long way to say, point her to an emergency ward in a Russian hospital for some sort of indicator. Be patient, keep chipping away and most of all be consistent. One thing I banned after the first 2 months (Settling in period) was more than 1 minute phone calls during work time. Fortunately, I can take time out from work to drive her somewhere if necessary, but I have always detested lengthly phone calls to or from spouses during the work day. 1 or 2 quick calls for necessities is fine. Nevertheless, one thing I have adjusted is that I start about an hour earlier in the morning now, around 6 and I usually take time out at lunch and we meet, either at home or elsewhere. I'm usually home by 5.30 or 6.00pm. Technology has assisted me a little as I do bring a file or two home and do a little after dinner most evenings. Mrs is fine with that because she usually calls back home about that time so we tend to be in the office together. Journeyman, there is several ways to skin a cat if need be.

I/O

[Kuna]

Journeyman,

There ARE people in FSU who work in very demanding jobs but perhaps your wife hasn't mixed in such circles.  She may find it strange though that you seem to ENJOY working like this as I know my wife (who regularly worked 12+ hour days) and my BIL (who is spectacularly successful) despise the lifestyles they lead or are "forced" to lead.

Someone said people there are more likely to work to live, and this came out in an early discussion with my wife on where we would live after marriage.  A concern she raised was our future lifestyle as she didn't want our family to work like dogs to pay off debt... instead we should work to "build a life for family" - LIFE being the operative word.

Before marriage I gave up my job traveling throughout Asiapac and trust me the adjustment has not been easy.  It was infinitely worth it though because I knew my marriage could not be sustained with the quality we have now if I was not giving my family (including child on the way) the attention they deserve.

You may need to take a breath and have a think about the life you want to live and the family-life you want to foster.  My experience in similar fields is that families fracture when all parties aren't focused ON THE FAMILY.

Yes, jobs/career/income/security/etc are all important - but nothing should be more important than your wife.

I'd stop looking for ways to convince her you NEED to do this and find a way to convince yourself there is a better life out there for you.

It's often said this journey takes TIME - and I'd suggest it's not just the time required to get married.  I've found it takes much more time to share our lives with our wives once they relocate and give them the attention they deserve.  I know my wife reciprocates by dong everything possible to make my life exciting, happy and fulfilled - and I feel I'm just doing my part.

Best of luck.

Kuna

[Kuna]

Another thought...

I/O, I can see what you're saying, and I saw the OP's original questions about finding parallels and ways to explain HIS situation to HER...  but I also think the OP still needs to think about why his wife is making these calls with "difficult" discussions during is busy day.

In essence, I, like others, are suggesting to him that he needs to consider his wife's feelings if she feels like she isn't getting sufficient attention, and therefore is compelled to call him many times throughout the day.

The worst thing that could happen is for the OP to find a way to convince her not to call him and she ends up realising "the pool guy" has time to listen to her difficult discussions while her husband is too busy to do so.

Europeans look on work differently, and not always because they're lazy.  Often they've just realised there is more to life than a 6 bedroom house, four cars and a boat - while we (Poms, Aussies and yanks) get sucked into "working for the man".

Not everything in the west is better.

Just my thoughts...

Kuna
 

[kievstar]

I would recommend bringing her to work a few days so she can see what you do.  Also, maybe bring her on the road with you.  I did that with my ex girlfriend from Kiev.  Took her to Poland so she could see how I ran a 100 plus person shared service center.  It kind of backfired on me as I had about 30 very attractive tall young educated Polish girls and about 100 average looking Polish girls.  Became very jealous (which I liked).  But she was impressed how I had highly educated directors and managers plus staff under my control.  She liked the fact we processed more than 500,000 transactions a month and paid billions of supplier payments and collected billions of cash in a year.  She understood after I physically showed her why some times I was busy but she also understood I delegated control down and treated my workers to a normal work life balance by always looking for ways to do things better. Russian women are curious so show her how you work.  A lot better than telling her.

In Ukraine most of the successful people I know spend more time on building relationships.  That is how business is down there.  So they do not sit in the office all day.  I have worked for several fortune 100 companies at VP levels (including General Electric and I am a former big 4 CPA Sr manager) and find that 80% of what people in western Europe, USA, and Asia do is not value added.  Sit in meeting after meeting or analyze to much.  I think people tend to work a lot of wasted hours but most lawyers and CPAS waste a lot of time.  I make very good money by simplifying things and eliminating waste.  I have not found a person yet I cannot reduce 50% of their prior hours within 3 months and it impacts their performance. So really analyze why your working so much. 

66 hour weeks - I would encourage starting work at 6:00am and your done at 6:00pm and on Saturdays and Sundays work from 6am to 9am when she is sleeping. I am sure your division is global so starting at 6am puts you into a better time zone with your Asian workers.  Get a house close to work will help too.  A lot of people in China and Japan work long hours too.  But there more book smart and not street smart. 

If you work a lot, most Russian women will not like that (even most American women).  You do not have to work a lot to be successful. 

Marrying a sincere  woman from another country will require you to have a career where your not always working.  She came to your country to be with you. 

[groovlstk]

This is a tough one, especially during the first year of marriage.

When my wife first arrived it was not easy for her to keep busy during the day, even with English lessons. Each day at 5PM she'd send me "PLEASE COME HOME" messages. I quickly changed many work habits - e.g., I worked through my lunch hour, set up wifi and virtual office so I could work more from home, woke up earlier and started my workday at 8AM rather than 9.

I'd agree w/Kuna that if a young, beautiful woman isn't having her needs met there's always the danger that someone else can fulfill those needs, regardless of how devoted she is. An good explanation or demonstration of why you need to work so long and hard might bring understanding on an intellectual level, but if she's not getting what she needs emotionally, all the 'splaining in the world won't do much good. There's a fine line between someone who is too clingy and someone who cherishes time together and expects more...

Regardless, I wish you and your wife the best of luck in working this out.

[SANDRO43]

Many years ago I was facing a dilemma: should I work my a$$ off (more than my usual fits and bursts) for some years, in order to reach eventually a higher position/income ? I was divorced at the time, so no family life to possibly compromise as a result.

After much deliberation I decided NOT to, considering that,  in the meantime:
- I would not be really LIVING.
- My life goals/priorities might change, and later I would be left wondering about, and possibly regretting, the effort spent in a now hollow pursuit.

A (Southern) European's perspective, mind you .

[Shadow]

Regarding the European work mentality, studies have proven that anything more than 9 hours is a waste of time.
While the Dutch work relatively less hours (36-40 regular) their productivity is in the top of the world statistics.

I have worked my share of long hours, and probably you will see my working hours even longer at the current time, just I have the priviledge to work from home.

[HiTech]

I have been bumping up against this same issue. Currently long hours are no longer needed for me, but when I was building my business 80 hour weeks were the norm.

Statements made that are of a different view than the west.

You are the boss, you should be able to do what you want.

You are the boss, you should dress like one. (I own a computer game company, shorts and t-shirts are considered "Black Tie").

The concept of working 2 years with no income to build a future is completely foreign.

The concept of business worth, vs owning a house is foreign.

I have not met a FSU women who thinks "RICH" is assets, instead they view RICH as cars , houses, vacations.

I do disagree slightly, We should find ways to explain the why we do what we do, but then include our women in the choice we make, I.E. is more money worth more hours at work, less hours with family.

The one thing I saw that shows the difference in my mind, is good western workers look for ways to make work better, and more productive. When I see most waiters in the FSU try to always be busy, but then not see them multitask, and not be able to keep up with 2 tables. It amazes me. To ask for a cup of coffee, and see a waiter wait for the one cup, bring it to you, and then go on to the next single task.

I do wonder how long the adjustment will take when Alyona gets here before she sees the difference.

Dale

[steviej]

Journeyman, don't let the American machine suck you in and kill you. The macroeconomics of what's happening is our relentlessly declining standard of living (meaning requiring huge amounts of hours, and usually dual incomes, to maintain standard of living we had 20 years with one income and 40 hours. But that's another thread)

You are a work-aholic. No question about it. You now have a beautiful new wife. What are your priorities? The marriages of the majority of work-aholics are doomed. Been there, done that.

I was definitely a work-aholic during my first marriage. Always 60+ hrs and more per week, constant stress, traveling,.

Now, I earn 45% less than I did then, I work at home most of the time, and I try to do as little as possible (yes, that's true) for as much as I can get. My goal is to get paid the most for doing nothing if I can.

And I am HAPPY !! I have the greatest relationship with my wife, I enjoy her all the time, she's my best friend (this is on a DAILY basis), and I wouldn't change anything.

You could have this too. But the machine has got you in its claws. We are the hardest working people in the world now because we are desperate.

Really, you need to think about what's important in life for you ... and make it happen. My advice? Put your woman and your marriage first about everything and anything else. And not just in words, but in deeds.

I sincerely wish you luck, and I know what you're going through.

[2tallbill]

Regarding the European work mentality, studies have proven that anything more than 9 hours is a waste of time.
While the Dutch work relatively less hours (36-40 regular) their productivity is in the top of the world statistics.

I have worked my share of long hours, and probably you will see my working hours even longer at the current time, just I have the priviledge to work from home.

Good point Shadow,

When I was a young salesman I was always reading different ideas about business and sales.

I am going to paraphrase:
 Hank Trisler said
"Great salesmen don't work 16 hours they only work 8 and then only under duress.
and this
"Where ever you are be there" if you are at work don't dream about being somewhere else, and
when you are on vacation or with love ones don't think about the office."

I have worked long hours before and over a hundred and ten days in a row without a day off. I worked
two shifts 7 days a week for months and months before.

I paid my dues and I know how to work like this if it's incredibly important, but is it really incredibly important?
That is the question.

Just my two kopecks,


Bill

[Journeyman]

It has now been about 24 hours since my original post.  Thank you all who took time to reply.

Congratulations to I/O ... (and thank you) ............. in that he was the single one who read my post carefully and then responded to the question in a thoughtful and thorough manner.   Honorable mentions go to both Bluesfairy and bgreed, as well. 

As I/O correctly observed, I did not ask for counseling, only information.  Many others appear to have fallen into the common trap of projecting either your own problems or those of others onto the simple facts that I listed for you.  Apparently, I also needed to state earlier that my wife is not complaing about a lack of attention, and no, we do not have any problems related to my work, nor an otherwise problematic marriage, and that in spite of my work, I balance home life and work fairly well, etc., etc.  But, nobody should have to consume time writing proleptic prose in anticipation of responses from people who might be watching too much Dr. Phil.

Simply, I was asking for help to spot examples of similar working conditions to which my wife could more easily relate.  She and I have worked hard together to create a more common frame of reference in many areas, and this issue seemed to lend itself also to such a simple solution -- citing examples in the FSU that she could more readily understand.  Not everybody who comes to this forum is looking for or in need of unsolicited advise.  My wife and I are quite happy together and living in a good marriage.  I now suppose that somebody will want to argue with that, and say that it is impossible, etc., etc.  If so, you presume way, way too much about both the facts and your ability to somehow intuit the truth. 

Now, since it is true that I am busy, and that I need to use my time efficiently, I will once again invite others to offer additional examples of similar work in the FSU.  Otherwise, I don't have time to respond to people who miss the point of my original post.  I'd rather spend time with my wife. 

Journeyman

[Shadow]

Journeyman, if you want examples, think about a bank clerk in Russia. They are constantly busy with clients waiting and handling money, at the end of the day they have to count all their balances.
As they are constantly in contact with clients, there is little time for them to take a phone call.

[steviej]

It has now been about 24 hours since my original post.  Thank you all who took time to reply.

Congratulations to I/O ... (and thank you) ............. in that he was the single one who read my post carefully and then responded to the question in a thoughtful and thorough manner.   Honorable mentions go to both Bluesfairy and bgreed, as well. 

As I/O correctly observed, I did not ask for counseling, only information.  Many others appear to have fallen into the common trap of projecting either your own problems or those of others onto the simple facts that I listed for you.  Apparently, I also needed to state earlier that my wife is not complaing about a lack of attention, and no, we do not have any problems related to my work, nor an otherwise problematic marriage, and that in spite of my work, I balance home life and work fairly well, etc., etc.  But, nobody should have to consume time writing proleptic prose in anticipation of responses from people who might be watching too much Dr. Phil.

Simply, I was asking for help to spot examples of similar working conditions to which my wife could more easily relate.  She and I have worked hard together to create a more common frame of reference in many areas, and this issue seemed to lend itself also to such a simple solution -- citing examples in the FSU that she could more readily understand.  Not everybody who comes to this forum is looking for or in need of unsolicited advise.  My wife and I are quite happy together and living in a good marriage.  I now suppose that somebody will want to argue with that, and say that it is impossible, etc., etc.  If so, you presume way, way too much about both the facts and your ability to somehow intuit the truth. 

Now, since it is true that I am busy, and that I need to use my time efficiently, I will once again invite others to offer additional examples of similar work in the FSU.  Otherwise, I don't have time to respond to people who miss the point of my original post.  I'd rather spend time with my wife. 

Journeyman

You're a swell guy, journey man !! And thanks for taking the time to insult anyone who bothered responding to you !!

[BC]

You're a swell guy, journey man !! And thanks for taking the time to insult anyone who bothered responding to you !!

steviej,
Threads do often take tangents.. it's quite normal and nothing to get upset about for sure.

Lots of good thoughts in this thread.. I found it useful.

If someone really wants to avoid such use a poll instead..

"Do you know any FSU jobs that require hard work and long hours?"

Yes - post the job/position

No - then STFU


 

[I/O]

then STFU

BC: I try, I really do, but these stupid wardens at the asylum, leave my gate unlocked sometimes and ya know, the sunshine is so tempting and when I goes for me walk, they leave this 'puter thing just inside the 9" razor wire. Kinda fun to see who I can annoy. Bugger, their coming again with that white coat with the long strings on it and those 'lectric prod things........................................

I/O

[BC]

Bugger, their coming again with that white coat with the long strings on it and those 'lectric prod things........................................

I/O

Awww... they just want to give you a hug...