A RW Perspective on Emancipation and Feminism

[Blues Fairy]

Ah, generalizations galore again.  Go to any open-air music festival in Russia and you'll see dozens of hippie-looking women in flat sandals or army boots, no makeup, unkempt hair, a bottle of beer in their hand, singing with hoarse voices with a cigarette sticking out of their mouth.  Stroll into an accounting department of a medium-sized company or gov't institution and you'll see a couple of fat Marya Ivanovna's with horrible bleached 'dos, masculine voices and rude manners.  Attend a C-level meeting at a large corporation and you'll encounter a Russian female exec dressed and acting just like her Western corporate colleagues.

It's a no-brainer really: the more patriarchial the society, the more rigid are behavioral and appearance standards for women (and men).  Once the rules are relaxed, we see more and more marginals, both ways.  Extreme femininity is just one of the survival tactics. Then as the democratic, equal oportunity society is stabilized, the public becomes increasingly homogeneous and kinda unisex, like the present-day Europeans.  

And yet it's obvious to me that any psychologically healthy, balanced person, be it Russian or American, will more or less stick to the behavioral standard accepted in the society.  American culture seems to be somewhat warped by the feminists but I see nothing wrong with it, on the whole.  Those of you who encountered AW uncomfortable with their femininity must have run into women with very serious self-esteem issues, whom I cannot classify as balanced or completely psychologically healthy.  Their resistance to femininity, just like their other weird behaviors, was a manifestation of their exaggerated psychological defenses.  But I assure you, there are plenty of such cases in Russia as well.  

[mspanky]

OK WmGo & Mspanky,
I may have mispoke in rregard to "being taken care of" but not in the way you two say here. I believe most AW would love to be taken care of by a man as long as they didn't have to admit it!

 Ken, many will proudly admit they are taken care of and want other women to envy their position.  Women compete for stuff like tha t.Why do you think women will flaunt vacations,homes,jewelry, cars her man gave her? In order to show another woman that her man can take  care of her really well.

[KenC]

Ken, many will proudly admit they are taken care of and want other women to envy their position.  Women compete for stuff like tha t.Why do you think women will flaunt vacations,homes,jewelry, cars her man gave her? In order to show another woman that her man can take  care of her really well.

Mspanky,
I disagree with how you present this.  The women are not showing off in regard as to how good their man is to them, but more like in how clever they are to "work" thier man to give them such things.  Big difference.
KenC

[BC]

Could you please expand on this thought?
KenC

Tomorrow..  I've just received my marching orders... to bed.

 

[mspanky]

Mspanky,
I disagree with how you present this.  The women are not showing off in regard as to how good their man is to them, but more like in how clever they are to "work" thier man to give them such things.  Big difference.
KenC

 Ken, I don't know. I think there are a lot of AW who are proud of how well their husbands can provide. In fact many AW search for a good provider. In my neighborhood I would say at least more than 50% of the younger mothers are stay at home types. I also see many of the younger generation in my family doing the same.  Most of my younger cousins are grateful their husbands salary allows her to stay home.
I have yet to hear a woman show off her new car or home and say "Do you want to know how clever I am in manipulating my husband?".  But I have heard women say "Look what my husband bought me. Isn't he sweet". In fact,many men buy nice things for their wives and girlfriends because they feel appreciated when they do it. I doubt many AW would get any gifts at all if they had the "entitled attitude" some men try to insist they do. All women know you get more with honey than with vinegar.

[KenC]

Tomorrow..  I've just received my marching orders... to bed.

 

Braggart!
 

[I/O]

Is it not true that when I look around, I see what I see?

Since she spoke English perfectly I'm assuming she's an AW.

Did y'all read this? Too funny. Oh dear oh dear.

I/O

[KenC]

Ken, I don't know. I think there are a lot of AW who are proud of how well their husbands can provide. In fact many AW search for a good provider. In my neighborhood I would say at least more than 50% of the younger mothers are stay at home types. I also see many of the younger generation in my family doing the same.  Most of my younger cousins are grateful their husbands salary allows her to stay home.
I have yet to hear a woman show off her new car or home and say "Do you want to know how clever I am in manipulating my husband?".  But I have heard women say "Look what my husband bought me. Isn't he sweet". In fact,many men buy nice things for their wives and girlfriends because they feel appreciated when they do it. I doubt many AW would get any gifts at all if they had the "entitled attitude" some men try to insist they do. All women know you get more with honey than with vinegar.

Mspanky,
Either I am not explaining myself well or we know different women.  Let me try to explain again.  It is not a sense of entitlement that these women project but a sense of accomplishment.  The gifts from their benefactors somehow become their accomplishments.  They don't say "my guy is great, look at what he bought for me."  Instead it is "My guy bought this for me because I am such a great woman."  It becomes the woman's accomplishment to deserve such gifts or special treatment.  The accolades rarely go to the man.
KenC

[mspanky]

 I came upon this blog. A wife writing reasons why she appreciates her husband. We can't vilify all AW just because we ended up dating or marrying bad ones. There are plenty of great AW out there and many men lucky enough to be married to one..
http://angelbrat454.blogspot.com/2007/01/my-husband.html
My Husband
I just wanted to take the time to share all the amazing things I appreciate about Nick. These are just a drop in the bucket compared to all the truly wonderful things about him, but maybe it's a start on letting him know how very much I love and appreciate him.


My husband has the strongest, most perfect hands.
My husband has the most beautiful blue eyes.
My husband has the most beautiful, sensual lips.
My husband is the best kisser I've ever known.
My husband plays card games with me when we go on vacation.
My husband constantly amazes me with his capacity for learning.
My husband always makes me laugh.
My husband married me when he was 19 years old and I was 20,

even though I told him I would wait for him forever.
My husband gives the best hugs.
My husband has the most wonderful body.
My husband wears his seat belt for my peace of mind.
My husband always makes me feel safe.
My husband brought my younger brothers pizza and videos when my dad had a heart attack.
My husband is a hard worker.
My husband is a dedicated spiritual leader in our family.
My husband kisses the back of my neck till I want to rip his clothes off.
My husband lets me buy all the books I can read.
My husband helps out around the house.
My husband usually puts the toilet seat down.
My husband makes great lasagna.
My husband sneaks into the shower with me.
My husband laughs at my jokes.
My husband bought me a gorgeous leather paddle and had it personalized.
My husband makes me feel feminine.
My husband looks awesome in jeans and a white t-shirt.
My husband is a willing and inventive lover.
My husband bathes my feet with lotion when they hurt.
My husband is an amazing father.
My husband went out and bought a replacement the same night when I lost my wedding ring.
My husband buys me a new silver bullet every time I need one.
My husband know just how to make me shiver.
My husband lives a domestic discipline lifestyle because it gives me what I need.
My husband has perfected The Look.
My husband calls me sweet, silly names.
My husband lets me borrow his shaving cream when I run out of mine.
My husband sometimes spends a sensual hour shaving me very slowly.
My husband brings me back from the edge time and time again.
My husband paints my toenails - and our daughter's.
My husband stands behind my decisions as a parent.
My husband has worked hard to embrace all of me, inside and out, even when it isn't easy.
My husband spanks me when I want it.
My husband spanks me when I need it.
My husband spanks me when I need it and don't want it.
My husband is very generous to me.
My husband compliments me when I wear lotion or perfume.
My husband smells soooo sexy!
My husband tells me he needs me.
My husband is a talented and honest mechanic.
My husband supports me in all that I do.
My husband believes in me.
My husband gives me goosebumps when he takes off his belt.
My husband is a wonderful artist.
My husband buys me roses.
My husband takes off the trash.
My husband mows the yard.
My husband spanks me as long and hard as I need it, then holds me while I cry when it's over.
My husband puts up the Christmas lights.
My husband makes paddles and other implements to use on me.
My husband lets me read to him.
My husband spent his own money to buy me a laptop.
My husband took us on vacation.
My husband makes me knees go weak when he speaks sternly to me.

My husband let me read "The Notebook" aloud to him years ago - and cried with me.
My husband builds fires in the fireplace for me.
My husband takes me camping.
My husband likes to take me out to dinner.
My husband takes me off-roading.
My husband never brings up a past misdeed.
My husband wants to have another baby with me.
My husband tells me he loves me many times a day.
My husband is kind to my friends.
My husband is a dependable friend to others.
My husband loves his in-laws.
My husband is a conscientious and kind son-in-law.
My husband provides me with a shoulder to cry on, and sounding board for all my ideas.
My husband scratches my back when I need it.
My husband kicks ass on the grill.
My husband makes me very horny when I see him working outdoors.
My husband is a truck guy.
My husband buys me pretty dangly earrings and tells me how pretty I look in them.
My husband can order for me at any restaurant we go to.
My husband does his job with a fluidity that awes me.
My husband demands respect from me.
My husband refuses to let me disrespect myself.
My husband prays with me.
My husband plays video games with our daughter.
My husband buys me things he knows I will enjoy but will not ask for.
My husband keeps my car in good repair.
My husband lets me buy tons of pretty panties.
My husband washes my car.
My husband is an honorable man.

His wife is a very blessed woman.

[SANDRO43]

Then as the democratic, equal oportunity society is stabilized, the public becomes increasingly homogeneous and kinda unisex, like the present-day Europeans.

I beg your pardon ? I like sailors, but not THAT much .

Ah, generalizations galore again.

Teapot & kettle ?

[mspanky]

Is it not true that when I look around, I see what I see?
Did y'all read this? Too funny. Oh dear oh dear.

I/O

I/O what I meant by perfect was she had no accent at all. So I thought maybe she is American or at least raised  in the U.S. which many men here would qualify as an AW. Why then do men talk about all women living in the U.S. being a certain way and therefore seek more traditional women in foreign countries. When this country is chock-full of young and beautiful foreign women who happened to come here as children? Perhaps the young beautiful RW and other FW raised here are considered too American by many.

[Ooooops]

I don't think many RWD members believe that being "feminine" has to do with physical strength or submissiveness or any kind of weakness: it's about women being comfortable being women.  A lot of AW simply aren't. 

This is the biggest contrast I noticed on my recent trip.

May I ask you a question - how many women did you meet outside of your "target" group and how deep your conversations were with those total strangers on the streets of Ukraine?      

[Ooooops]

To be honest with you, I did not know of the difference between RW and AW before I went to meet my wife.   My wife on the other hand waits for me to bring in the heavy groceries from the car.  Regardless that she loaded them there to begin with! 
KenC

Ken, is it possible that it's not all Russian women you are describing but your wife in particular?     I'm a big girl and won't hesitate twice to move the couch myself while husband is doing something else.   And definitely won't wait for him to bring groceries from the car, unless I bought 10 bags on manure or something.       See what I'm saying?   You were looking for feminine girl and you found her.   My husband was looking for somebody he can raft the rapids or haul stuck RV from quick sand and he found one.   We both are from Russia and yet both are very different.   

[KenC]

Come on, Oops, you're ruining all my fun here! :evil:

Maybe I am not using good examples of my generalities?    I hear what you are saying, though.  A friend of mine bought his Russian wife a shotgun for her wedding present and she is an avid fisherman! (fisherperson?)  Maybe the physical side of things is the wrong approach then.  I base my opinion on not only my wife but the many friends we have from the fsu, my wife's friends back home and family.  To a one, they are all very lady like and feminine.  As Lily said upthread, RW seem to be proud to be women.  I just don't see that in AW.
KenC

[Ooooops]

Come on, Oops, you're ruining all my fun here! :evil:

 

I base my opinion on not only my wife but the many friends we have from the fsu, my wife's friends back home and family.  To a one, they are all very lady like and feminine.

Well, tell me who's your friend and I'll tell you who you are.       And again - I'm not saying that all Russian women are butch and all American girls are little princesses - I'm just saying that there are enough both in either place. 

[Gator]

As Lily said upthread, RW seem to be proud to be women.  I just don't see that in AW.

Ken,

Most AW seem proud to be women; however, their image of a woman differs from yours.  Therein lies the possible conflict.

I think it is good that the average looking AW does not become upset about not being a beauty queen and can take pride in what she accomplishes as a person.  If she had an image problem, we would have an even higher percentage of AW in therapy and on anti-depressants or whatever.

There are many beautiful AW.    Beautiful AW are proud to be beautiful, and most have learned a long time ago how to open a door with just a smile and their looks.   

[ScottinCrimea]

It is a shame that we don't have any AW that post on this forum. To hear people here, you would think that American women sought to aspire to Mao's ideals during the cultural revolution. If AW don't care about their looks and femininity, why is the beauty industry in the United States worth billions of dollars. Who exactly is buying the anti-wrinkle creams and the other beauty products that are continually being advertised? Who are all the patients fueling the cosmetic surgery business in the USA? Why the bombardment of commercials as to how to lose weight and where to buy the most fashionable clothing?

We should only consider this if we assume that feminity only has to do with outward appearances.  Maybe all of these women are trying to looker younger/more beautiful because they can't attract/keep anyone with their "wonderful' personalities.

[myrddin]

May I ask you a question - how many women did you meet outside of your "target" group and how deep your conversations were with those total strangers on the streets of Ukraine?      

Not very deep, since if I have an actual conversation with someone I don't consider them a tota stranger  .  And there were 7 or 8 outside my target group.

No significant population is homogeneous, but I'm just talking about my own impression. And it was a very strong impression.

[Ooooops]

No significant population is homogeneous, but I'm just talking about my own impression. And it was a very strong impression.

Well, then you found what you were looking for, right?   Congrats!   

[Misha]

We should only consider this if we assume that feminity only has to do with outward appearances.  Maybe all of these women are trying to looker younger/more beautiful because they can't attract/keep anyone with their "wonderful' personalities.

And all Russian women have personalities of gold?!? You see, I know some wonderful Russian women, and I know some wonderful Canadian women. I do not believe that any nationality has the monopoly on 'wonderful' personalities.

[Ooooops]

And all Russian women have personalities of gold?!?

Wouldn't that be nice?   

[WmGO]

WmGO,
Well there is a whole "other side" to the American story too.  The Pussyfication of the American male might be a good starting title.
KenC

Well, there is no doubt about that. For several decades now
it seems that there has been an overt effort emanating from
*somewhere* to masculinise women and feminise men. I won't
go into my theory of the "somewhere" b/c I don't want anyone's
panties to get into a wad, but the long term trend is undeniable.....

I think that my beloved America has become a big cauldron of
strange sociological (and sometimes toxic)  stew.......


Still, I think a lot of these subjects that are being discussed here
have a wide variation from region to region within the U.S. (feminism,
wanting to be taken care of, etc.).  Regardless, I see in just about every region of America a stark and sickening downward trend in people, both men and women,
in regards to caring about themselves and their appearance. One thing I have
always believed about women is that one aspect of being a woman is caring
about appearance and wanting and striving to be pretty and beautiful. No
doubt that the words of feminism would argue that my thinking is "chauvinistic"
and simply seeks to enslave and degrade women. Applying the same thinking
in reverse they would suggest that man should therefore strive to adopt
feminine traits and thinking..........

[BC]

Lily mentioned attitudes being formed by hard times.

It will wear off in time, and probably already has for the youngest generation.

With higher earnings comes greater choices so don't expect things to remain as they were or maybe are.  'Muscle' will begin to be flexed beyond those steel doors, skirt or not.

Count on it.

Could you please expand on this thought?
KenC

Humanity is not static.  People change over time depending on their environment (just look at people driving less and downsizing due to gas prices).  I have seen folks in different countries change over the years.. Much of Europe has normally lagged 10 years or so behind the US in many aspects.. Today the women (mostly in northern countries) are quite feminist in their views, strive for their independence, especially in the workplace and wield 'Power of the Bush'.

FSU and RU is changing rapidly.  Near my wife's home town, 6 years ago there were NO shopping malls.  Now there are at least three - the same stores that are a few miles away from us here - Metro, Auchan and IKEA.  Are we really going to believe that the women will not change?  Considering the momentum that has been created in just a few years I don't believe it will be long before they catch up with the rest of the world both economically and socially.

Time and time again, I have seen improved economics drive families from the comforts of dependency on one another to seeking luxury of independence.  I doubt that the new generation of FSU women will be much different than their European counterparts.  I say European because I doubt that FSU will tend towards draconian, no tolerance equality laws that seem to predominate in some other countries.  Maybe because of this Europe (including FSU) will in relative terms remain a destination for wife seeking AM's.  As it is now days, living on this side of the Atlantic with more liberal travel/immigration possibilities for FSU folks the playing field is becoming already quite level.  In fact, no one here has ever asked or mentioned MOB when they ask which country my wife is from.  At the most, they first ask if she is from Ukraine.

[ScottinCrimea]

Time and time again, I have seen improved economics drive families from the comforts of dependency on one another to seeking luxury of independence. 

Couldn't we also say that it drives them to seek for happiness based on material things rather than family and friends?

[Wienerin]

Oops,
I am trying my best not to be too derogatory towards AW.  Really!

Do not try so hard, please, maybe the resulting product will be better 

To be honest with you, I did not know of the difference between RW and AW before I went to meet my wife.  It is only after years together with her, knowing her friends and family that have brought these differences to my attention.

After most of my life among RW and exposure for some 20 years to quite a number of American and other Western women and later life here for the last 12+ years, frankly, I do not see that much difference - except that RW tend to wear more make up and mor "party" clothes as everyday wear (mostly in the cities). Also if we compare the comparavle - women from the similar life strata as far as it were possible in the Soviet times when women in the USSR simply didn't have access to the same range of goods and services that their Western counterparts.

IMO RW want to be equal but not the same as men.  They relish the differences between the sexes.  IMO AW want to be the same as men.  Evidence of this is their disdain for men who open doors for them, or offer to carry something heavy for them.  Or (God forbid!) if their limitations (even physical) of being a woman is some how pointed out.

No one wants - or can however they strive - to be "the same as men". And I haven't seen "relishing" as to the differences. Not with sane well adjusted people. What is there to "relish"? One could as well "relish" that we have two teats as opposit to a cow udder or a row of teats as on a dog What is - is.

As to the rest of your statements - I've read literally the same horrors about doors, chairs, seats, coats, etc., etc. in Russian media before I came here. I wondered how American men in Russia managed to acquire these same gentlemen's qualities (i.e. good breeding) while in Russia when taught not to show them in the USA. And I "steeled" myself not to expect such niceties when coming here - as well as friendly hugs, kisses, compliments at work, etc.

You know what? I was hugely "disappointed"  Men here were as polite and relaxed here as in SPb, we hug and kiss as a matter of fact with my colleagues (and in a government job, mark you!), hear as much and maybe even more compliments, men open doors, help with heavy parcels, etc. - as much and even more than in SPb.

There are some things that ARE conspiciously lacking, that's true - there are less (to nonexistence) snide "compliments" that would make your cheeks burn, unwelcome pawing, derogatory remarks as to our "poor li'l heads", etc.

No one here would dream of grabbing one's colleague breast or stroking her knee - and remarking to others loudly what a firm breast it were or what sexy and exiting a knee... he feels himself stirring, he-he-he...

Not a professor would start an opening lecture saying that "girls" cannot hope for more than C+ with him, because they simply cannot grasp this material. Also no one would be giving higher grades to men because they need better positions while girls would marry and bear children and do not need successful careers - the reasons openly stated.

Not a management meeting will be conducted on the matter of giving higher raises and bonuses to men since they have to "provide" for their families while women have their husbands ro provide for them (the last was specially juicy given the number of single moms with either meager child support or none at all... )

I remember my Mom - a brilliant engineer and tough as nails (as she had to be having been born in Russia in 1917 - that is living through hunger, deprivation, war, evacuation with my 1 y.o. brother while Dad went fighting, etc.) - crying because she was denied a long deserved promotion because a man "needed it more" and she had a highly successful husband...

I can feel pages with the like examples, you know...

Case on point: While single, I was rearranging my furniture in my living room to the suggestions of my then girlfriend (AW).  She did not hesitate to grab the other end of a couch to help me move it.  AW have no qualms to working like a man physcally.  My wife on the other hand waits for me to bring in the heavy groceries from the car.  Regardless that she loaded them there to begin with!

 

No, this is not "a case on point" - this is just the difference between the two women. You make it difficult for me to specify - because you speak of your wife with admiration to her "femininity", while giving two widely different examples (is this the vaunted male logic? ) ...

I wouldn't - and didn't - "wait" for my men (father, brother, sons, boyfriends, friends, colleagues, husbands or my heart and soul for the last 16 years to carry my heavy groceries or whatever - because they would simply do it, as a matter of fact. Here, there and everywhere.

And I wouldn't hesitate to help the same in doing something awkward or too heavy/difficult to do by themselves. If I can. Because I'm not an idiot to handle something that I cannot, and because if I can - I want to help because I care for "my men"... If a job is too heavy - I'll insist on summoning or hiring help. It's a simple matter of logistics and human dynamics, not a rocket science and not a proof of RW attitude superiority over the AW's one.

BUT - in a different social stratum, like, say, in a rural farmers community in Russia or among blue-collar workers you could see "beautiful" examples of RM not only demanding their women's help, but completely and blithely leaving the hard tasks to them ... have you ever seen Russian road and railroad repair teams? Brick-layers? It will make your eyes pop to see how many women there are in these and other back-breaking occupations in Russia.

PS My apologies for mistaken use of a bottom-pinching episode