The Russian Invasion of Ukraine-The Real Nazis

[jone]

Poroshenko's move is a clever delaying tactic.

1.  Every day that territory gets smaller.  Donbass is now cut off.  Lugansk is almost cut off.  Ukraine is now resupplying their border choke hold leaving only one access point into Russia - that is Russia Donetsk.

2.  It would look very bad for Russia to enter Ukraine while a parley was occurring.

3.  There is no desire, on the part of the Russian forces to release any hostages, as they are the only safety net to keep the Russian combatants alive.

4.  The various parties that want to inspect the crash site are going to have unlimited access to it in the next week, probably, anyway, as almost the entire area is now under Ukraine's control.

I would be surprised if Russia bites, unless it is accompanied by a mutual cease fire.  And, of course, it is a cease fire that cannot be enforced because the Russians in country answer to no one.

Yes, it is a clever tactic that will put the Russians in a further bad light.  In the interim, the noose gets tighter.  Only a true invasion by Putin will stop Ukraine from winning.

[fathertime]

Why would I take a position that is likely not to occur?  Should I also speculate on how many angels dance on the head of a pin?

We are not talking about angels on the head of a pin. 


You seem awfully critical of other positions within the safety of having NO POSITION yourself.  Through all the links you have posted (some of which are helpful) I would think that you would have some original thoughts of your own.  To this point, I have gathered that you are against a Ukrainian federation.  I think it is funny that you won't state your position though....obviously you are afraid to...it's ok then...just expect to reminded of it from time to time. You know that a negotiation of a Ukrainian federation is my position...I think it can be done and beats the alternative....but hey, maybe Russia won't invade...just create havoc for years to come...but that doesn't seem very good either.   


Fathertime!   

[Boethius]

My position is all over this forum.  Ukraine was the victim of a proxy invasion, intent on dismantling the Ukrainian state for its own purposes.  Ukraine needs a united country rather than fiefdoms.

[fathertime]

My position is all over this forum.  Ukraine was the victim of a proxy invasion, intent on dismantling the Ukrainian state for its own purposes. Ukraine needs a united country rather than fiefdoms.

Ok....so you think the way to get there is to fight the Separatists, and then possibly the full force of Russia. Am I stating your position fairly? 
  I think the way to get the best outcome is to try to negotiate and accept a federation....then make sure it is done as fair as possible.   


Fathertime!   

[Boethius]

Why would a federation, which would weaken the Ukrainian state, be beneficial to Ukraine and Ukrainians?

[southernX]

It is not condescending.  It is clear, by your response, that you have little understanding of what is occurring, and why. 

I edited my post to add another link.  If you want to know why Russia wants federalization, it is a good link for some basic information.

agree ,100%

[fathertime]

Ok....so you think the way to get there is to fight the Separatists, and then possibly the full force of Russia. Am I stating your position fairly? 
  I think the way to get the best outcome is to try to negotiate and accept a federation....then make sure it is done as fair as possible.   


Fathertime!   

Why would a federation, which would weaken the Ukrainian state, be beneficial to Ukraine and Ukrainians?

Did I state your position correctly? Since you won't come right out and state your position, once I know that I stated it correctly we can discuss the pros and cons of each.   


Fathertime!   

[Muzh]

In the case of a federation, why would a oligarch close to Moscow be elected in a region that you all seem to believe supports Ukraine sovereignty and ideals?  That seems like a giant leap to me.  If there is a large subset of the population in the region that does lean Russian, it doesn't seem too unreasonable to let their voices be heard and if some policies are pro-Russian that doesn't seem like that big a deal, so long as they aren't anti-Ukrainian. 


All of this would be a better outcome for those that support Ukraine, than a full Russian invasion...and that appears to be on the table now that no negotiations are happening. 

Fathertime!

I said it before and I'll say it again, you have no farging clue about the geopolitics of Eastern Europe. It is obvious by the statement you just made.

[Muzh]

Ok....so you think the way to get there is to fight the Separatists, and then possibly the full force of Russia. Am I stating your position fairly? 
  I think the way to get the best outcome is to try to negotiate and accept a federation....then make sure it is done as fair as possible.   


Fathertime!   

Is this your philosophy in life?







Because it surely sounds this is what you want for Ukraine.

[BillyB]

this conflict will be over fairly soon, with Ukraine's ATO prevailing. 

If true, Putin is going to have to make some bold decisions in the near future. I believe Putin is a man who will finish what he started. I also believe he cares about what is written about himself in history. He doesn't want to be known in history as the Russian leader who lost Ukraine. Trying to start a civil war in Ukraine isn't working. He'll have to send in the Russian troops under the pretext he's protecting ethnic Russians from the fascists.

[GQBlues]

Your list omits perhaps the most significant country - Iran.  There we had a pro-western tyrant dictator (the Shah) in our pocket, only for Jimmy Carter to drop him like a piece of kaka....

I purposely left off Iran since the installation of Reza Shah happened shortly after WW II, and the ensuing revolt removed our boy from their nation in '79. The present day Iran doesn't have any current conflict internally with the exception perhaps of the pending nuclear reactor disposition.

But just as Israel's Operation Orchard did to Syria, I'm certain if the present deal with Washington doesn't pan out, another unlawful attack will be levied by our friends in the Middle East. 

...Although we are not complicit in all of the countries making your list, there is a need for POTUS to extinguish some fires.

I agree but he's too busy these days with more important things on his agenda. 

But what I did left out was the former Yugoslavia (Kosovo, Albania, Bosnia). Wonderful we did for these regions since we are currently finding out, almost 20 years of supporting this regime change, both financially and militarily, those lovable KLA folks we armed were actually doing some pretty funky things during *their fight for independence.*

http://www.newsweek.com/kosovo-signs-organ-harvesting-during-war-261896

>>After a three-year investigation, the EU-led task force said there was, however enough evidence to prosecute former leaders of the Kosovo Liberation Army (KLA) for war crimes against the ethnic Serb and Roma populations of Kosovo during the conflict.

The investigation was prompted by a 2011 report by Council of Europe member Dick Marty that accused senior KLA commanders of involvement in the smuggling of Serb prisoners into northern Albania and the removal of their organs for sale.<<

The bottom line with my point is - we need to stop spreading democracy unto our world one nation at a time as though it's no one else's business but ours.

[southernX]

If true, Putin is going to have to make some bold decisions in the near future. I believe Putin is a man who will finish what he started. I also believe he cares about what is written about himself in history. He doesn't want to be known in history as the Russian leader who lost Ukraine. Trying to start a civil war in Ukraine isn't working. He'll have to send in the Russian troops under the pretext he's protecting ethnic Russians from the fascists.

billy, i actully think it is the US/EU &UN that will need to make the bold decisions in the near future
putin has already displayed bold decisions since feb

you dont hear any talk about crimea much now from those bodies above ?
his invasion and taking crimea was pretty bold , not much happened as a result of that ,
given he has escalated the conflict to date , he has made his decisions and true style is following through with them , adjusting as he goes
it is the west that must make the bold decision of how to counter him , little or nothing responses to date have only encouraged him to go harder for his goal imho

facts on the ground show the evidence of this so far , it has only been ukraine who has really stood up to him & continues to do so largely alone
SX

[fathertime]

Is this your philosophy in life?







Because it surely sounds this is what you want for Ukraine.

REally?  Given your avatar it looks to me that this is your slogan.


Although you are also a little to afraid to state your position, it appears you would like for Ukraine to fight.  Considering your great 'knowledge' I believe that is the wrong way to go....You can already see the consequences daily with the mounting dead...I think it would have been better for Ukraine to federate.


Fathertime! 

[southernX]

FT

Although you are also a little to afraid to state your position, it appears you would like for Ukraine to fight.  Considering your great 'knowledge' I believe that is the wrong way to go....You can already see the consequences daily with the mounting dead...I think it would have been better for Ukraine to federate.

FT  ukraine has no other choice but to fight while trying to use negotiations to bring this to a halt

what did crimea show ??  if you dont fight , the facts on the ground will occur around you while you try to quietly resist and negotiate, russia established control in crimea because ukraine was not prepared to fight at that stage , neither mentally or militarily even governance wise it was weakened
crimea is now annexed =gone ,

ukraine learned a valued lesson there , hence poroshenko is not prepared to repeat it again anytime soon
if you are not prepared to defend your country and stand up for what is right then dont expect others to help/support you

this is all basic stuff , it should be easily understandable to most people , no one wants deaths on either side , but one man has the power to stop it , that is putin
SX

[AC]

Ok....so you think the way to get there is to fight the Separatists, and then possibly the full force of Russia. Am I stating your position fairly? 
  I think the way to get the best outcome is to try to negotiate and accept a federation....then make sure it is done as fair as possible.   


Fathertime!   

Accepting a "federation" as Moscow wishes would be almost the same as laying down arms and inviting the separatists to take over Kiev right away. 

[fathertime]

FT
FT  ukraine has no other choice but to fight while trying to use negotiations to bring this to a halt

That is a sensible response. Most won't take any position at all.  CNN is reporting that Ukraine is using Short Range Ballistic missiles now....and sanctions are stepped up for whatever that is worth....  Russia could have had Crimea without all of this destruction and nobody was going to do much about it....I would have left it at that...this is going to end badly for everybody unless some sort of negotiation take place soon. 


There is going to be a lot more deaths, we shall see if it is all worthwhile and for who.   

Accepting a "federation" as Moscow wishes would be almost the same as laying down arms and inviting the separatists to take over Kiev right away. 

Well AC, that seems to be what a few people are implying...It doesn't seem it would have to be that way...we may eventually find out.


Fathertime!   

[Boethius]

Well AC, that seems to be what a few people are implying...It doesn't seem it would have to be that way...we may eventually find out.

No, it does seem it would have to be that way.  If Ukraine had strong democratic institutions throughout the country, you could assume this.  It does not.  It is coming out of over 70 years of destruction and totalitarian rule where most anyone with a brain was executed or marginalized.  Its nomenklatura seized the assets of the country and continue to rule with little regard for the population it is supposed to serve.  A federation would exacerbate that.  That is why the Russians want it.  A weak and corrupt Ukraine is to Russia's advantage.


The Euromaidan activists understood why integrating with Europe is their best chance for a normal life.  That is the only solution, at least short term (one generation, at least) for Ukraine.

[southernX]

FT

this copy below from an article sums it up , pretty much as bo and others have stated on here for some time
SX

Why does Russia want Ukraine to adopt a federal system?
Since pro-Russia separatists seized government buildings in eastern Ukraine, almost certainly with Kremlin support, Moscow has centered on a big demand to end the crisis that it is also partly responsible for creating : Ukraine should adopt a federal system.
 
The reason Moscow wants this is that, in the current system, Ukraine's pro-Western government might not be very inclined to cooperate with Moscow. In a federal Ukrainian system, regional governments will have much more autonomy and power, meaning that Moscow can get what it wants by simply calling up pro-Russian regional governors in Ukraine's typically pro-Russian east.
 
These eastern regions have lots of important natural resources, such as coal. They also have factories that produce essential military equipment for Russia. So if Russia can count on keeping them solidly pro-Russian by forcing Ukraine to adopt a federal system, that may well be enough to appease Moscow. This could ultimately worsen Ukraine's already-severe political divide between west and east, by allowing the country's pro-Russia and pro-Europe socio-political factions to move even further apart rather than finally coming together.
http://www.vox.com/cards/ukraine-everything-you-need-to-know/why-does-russia-want-ukraine-to-adopt-a-federal-system

[Misha]

Ultimately, what do we have left of "Novorossiya"? A few pockets still held by mercenaries and a few local social outcasts. They don't even control the majority of the territory and once the terrorists are driven out the population is happy to see the "freaks" go. Unless Russia invades, the small pockets of armed resistance will either flee or die. It is only a matter of time and how much damage they will do in the meantime. Both Novorossiya and the fallback of making Ukraine a decentralized federation are stillborn.

[Isthmus]

Kiev would be crazy to accept forced 'Federalisation' (aka capitulation) right now. There will be a heavy cost for Putin and Russia if this Donetsk debacle degenerates into an out and out Russian invasion of Ukraine. There will be a heavy economic, political and diplomatic fall out, so heavy that Putin's regime may not see the end of the war.

People keep forgetting that this attack on Ukraine will eventually severely strain relations between Moscow and other ex-USSR States who are all watching and thinking 'If they can do this to their closest relatives the Ukrainians, what might they do to us then?'

Rather than re-creating a type of Soviet Union again, I think Putin's Ukraine blunder will make sure it never comes to fruition. Minsk and Astana would be looking for potential exit strategies regarding the Customs Union and ways to diffuse Russian influence in Belarus and Kazakhstan respectively ...

[ghost of moon goddess]

Meanwhile, a rally in support of federalization is scheduled for August 17 in Novosibirsk, the RF.
People will gather to demand broad powers for regional authorities.

It's people's legitimate right to determine their region's future and the government must respect it, organizers say.
The Region's separation from the RF is not on the agenda, the ultimate goal is to create the Siberian republic within the administrative borders of the region and tame power-hungry and money-grabbing Moscow.



Sweet sweet kisses so tender, always will return to sender like a 
a boom-a-boomerang ... 

[Gator]

Meanwhile, a rally in support of federalization is scheduled for August 17 in Novosibirsk, the RF.
People will gather to demand broad powers for regional authorities.

It's people's legitimate right to determine their region's future and the government must respect it, organizers say.
The Region's separation from the RF is not on the agenda, the ultimate goal is to create the Siberian republic within the administrative borders of the region and tame power-hungry and money-grabbing Moscow.

This is probably a very complicated issue.  It sounds as if there is a movement to decentralize the government of interior Russia, and meanwhile Putin wants to resurrect the Warsaw pact with more Moscow control of its neighbors.


How does this compare with the states rights in the U. S.?

In the US the issue of States Rights has been long debated, and even led to a bloody civil war (!861-1865).  Racial equality was a states rights issue long after the civil war.  Today the key issues are gay marriages, abortions, death penalty, legalization of marijuana,  etc.

The US Federal government has been assuming more and more power ever since the Civil War.  While President Ronald Reagan temporarily reversed the trend, the pendulum has now swung the other way, providing more and more power to a growing Federal government.   

[Boethius]

An interesting piece from Der Spiegel


http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/a-trip-to-the-site-of-the-crash-of-flight-mh-17-a-983268.html

[ghost of moon goddess]

This is probably a very complicated issue.  It sounds as if there is a movement to decentralize the government of interior Russia, and meanwhile Putin wants to resurrect the Warsaw pact with more Moscow control of its neighbors.

The idea of creating the Independent Republic of Siberia has a long history and dates back to the late 19th- early 20th centuries. It was born in 1918 and existed for a short time, only 4 months.

This summer's pro-federalization campaign is organized by the leaders of the National-Bolshevik platform to demand an end to Moscow 'robbing' funds from the region's budget. Members of the ''Siberian Republic 1918'' movement and Autonomous Nationalists say they will join the rally.

When the campaign first appeared on the Internet Moscow was quick to point the finger at Washington and Ukrainian oligarch I. Kolomoisky who, they believe, is working behind the scene to try to destabilize the region.

[Muzh]

REally?  Given your avatar it looks to me that this is your slogan.


Although you are also a little to afraid to state your position, it appears you would like for Ukraine to fight.  Considering your great 'knowledge' I believe that is the wrong way to go....You can already see the consequences daily with the mounting dead...I think it would have been better for Ukraine to federate.


Fathertime!

LMFAO


You definitely are a ball-buster.


I bet you got slapped a lot in school because of this attitude, didn't you?


 


You want to hear the truth regarding what I want?


You can't handle the truth!!