Newt or Mitt VS Obama. Can either of 'em beat him?

[Darth_Budda]

Don't know why folks keep saying we're still in a depression.  It ended over a year ago and we're well into recovery.

What surprises me a bit is that many big companies used the crisis to downsize.  They basically dropped the fat and became meaner / leaner.  This exacerbated unemployment problems but even that is heading in the right direction.  Downside is a sneaky feeling I have that overall this gave corporations and companies that previously fired opportunity to now hire at lower wages.

The baby boom generation will soon be retiring and that will be the huge hurdle in the next 20 years.  Wealth will continue to concentrate creating a huge economic gap without a middle class that can support the aging.  Doesn't take much to figure out who will end up taking care of the elderly.  Social security is barely enough to live on now days,  just a bare minimum.  With healthcare in the final year of life representing over 30% of all healthcare costs it's a disaster in the making that will make the 2008/9 financial crisis look simple in comparison.  SCOTUS may rule against Obamacare, but something similar will be back.. guaranteed.

As for energy, the old principle 'it's easier to save a dollar than earn one' will rule.  Technology like solar energy which is now available at rock bottom prices (1/3rd or less than 5 years ago) will continue to grow and be available for the common household.  It will become as essential to new housing as a heating / cooling system is today.  Prices for energy will keep rising though as the 'old' infrastructure needs to be maintained.  Transportation costs will also keep rising but there are plenty of alternatives there.  Believe it or not the minivan system seen in many countries like UA, RU, TU etc is quite efficient.. I'd like to see that become a part of public transport in other countries.  Heck, it gets you from the airport to the car rental lot so why should it not work elsewhere..

Interesting BC, So you think a form of Socialized health care is being pushed because the baby boomers don't want to pay for their own health care...

Instead of because the poor need the help most.

[BC]

Interesting BC, So you think a form of Socialized health care is being pushed because the baby boomers don't want to pay for their own health care...

Instead of because the poor need the help most.

You can call it socialized or whatever, the term does not matter.. in any case healthcare cannot remain one term: Expensive....  compare costs with other 'socialized' healthcare countries..  and guess what.. life expectancy is lower. 

It's way out of whack



http://www.kff.org/insurance/snapshot/oecd042111.cfm

Bottom line, no bang for BIG BUCK.

[Darth_Budda]

The only way to lower Health care cost is to encourage more young people to Become doctors.. I bet it's almost that simple.

To do this we need public/Socialized education for doctors. I am sure their are many young people who want to be doctors but can't afford the cost of schools.

Also we need to think of building publicly owned pharmaceutical  companies to produce some of the drugs that the big companies don't want or can't make enough profit from.

[BC]

Interesting BC, So you think a form of Socialized health care is being pushed because the baby boomers don't want to pay for their own health care...

Instead of because the poor need the help most.

Baby boomer, poor, rich, no matter... someone pays for it.

A good example, due to the economic crisis, costs for prescribed medicine here dropped about 10 to 15%  Government basically says either lower your prices or we'll raise your taxes.  Good system.. lol

[Turboguy]

The only way to lower Health care cost is to encourage more young people to Become doctors.. I bet it's almost that simple.

I would tend to disagree with you.  First, I think you believe the average doctor makes far more than he does.   I will agree that a brain surgeon or heart surgeon makes good money but most doctors don't make as much as you think.   I know a couple of doctors who went back to school to become lawyers because their income was so low.   Flooding the market with doctors would reduce the pay but for every doctor who sticks a stethoscope on your chest it takes three support people to keep him going.  Streamlining the paperwork, and improving efficiency could cut costs far more.  For every buck he charges you or your insurance company 40 cents of that is in some way related to the risk of lawsuits.  Tort reform could cut medical costs far more.  There are far better ways of reducing medical costs than flooding the market with doctors.

[Darth_Budda]

I would tend to disagree with you.  First, I think you believe the average doctor makes far more than he does.   I will agree that a brain surgeon or heart surgeon makes good money but most doctors don't make as much as you think.   I know a couple of doctors who went back to school to become lawyers because their income was so low.   Flooding the market with doctors would reduce the pay but for every doctor who sticks a stethoscope on your chest it takes three support people to keep him going.  Streamlining the paperwork, and improving efficiency could cut costs far more.  For every buck he charges you or your insurance company 40 cents of that is in some way related to the risk of lawsuits.  Tort reform could cut medical costs far more.  There are far better ways of reducing medical costs than flooding the market with doctors.

I can agree to tort reform, But i would rather see both happen.
So less advantaged areas could have as many doctors as advantaged ones.
Poor rural areas need more doctors, besides it's a noble profession. Much more important to society than more stock brokers or lawyers.


I think insurance companies are a scam.. I understand what they do but they should not make millions from the industry. They should be re-organized in to Non-profit shared money pools.

[BC]

Tort reform is only a part of the problem.

The huge parts:

Pharmaceuticals and extraordinary measures deemed necessary for end of life care.  It seems all are still after that (expensive) elixir that will prolong life but statistically does not.  It is a big money maker though.

There is a big difference between a HMO negotiating kickbacks for pharma and a country leveraging lower prices.  Instead of devoting a third or more of expensive resources trying to cure instead of providing a measure of comfort for those who will pass on put those funds to use in preventative medicine...

Actually Obamacare is not radical enough..  Miss your mandated yearly checkup or follow up appointments and you should be fined instead.  That will increase longevity and quality of life.

Healthcare is a benefit for society, a bottom up environment.  Once the general population grasps that concept things will change and objections will fall.

As an expat living overseas, I have never, ever seen a medical bill.. with one exception - a minor procedure while visiting in US.  The lab costs were twice that what the doctor charged.

[Daveman]

...
 
And pleeeease...... those with at least an IQ of 120..... don't fall for the propaganda where ever it comes from. Read the King James Bible!

Gotta love this line..   

[Anotherkiwi]

Somewhat    now, but very true!
 

...Transportation costs will also keep rising but there are plenty of alternatives there.  Believe it or not the minivan system seen in many countries like UA, RU, TU etc is quite efficient.. I'd like to see that become a part of public transport in other countries.  Heck, it gets you from the airport to the car rental lot so why should it not work elsewhere..

People here moan about public transport (buses mainly, although occasionally about the suburban rail system - there don't seem to be complaints about the ferry services) because there are so many areas in this huge city that are just not served, or the service is minimal (e.g. one bus per hour off-peak, or two buses on a Sunday).  I totally agree that something like a marshrutka set-up would be a huge improvement in many parts of town.
 
Unfortunately I don't have the money to set it up - perhaps ML could sell another one or two of his properties and become our benefactor? 

[BC]

The only way to lower Health care cost is to encourage more young people to Become doctors.. I bet it's almost that simple.

To do this we need public/Socialized education for doctors. I am sure their are many young people who want to be doctors but can't afford the cost of schools.

Also we need to think of building publicly owned pharmaceutical  companies to produce some of the drugs that the big companies don't want or can't make enough profit from.

The first thing that needs to happen is that healthcare becomes an entitlement officially.  I say 'officially' because de facto it is when emergency rooms usually cannot refuse care to those without insurance or money.   

Those who are not insured often go this route and know well the 'symptoms' that have to be present in order to get care.  Downside is that ER care is much much more expensive than just going to your doctor for a simple ailment or prescription.  It seems this might also be the preferred 'way to go' for those that do have insurance but requires a co-pay / deductible.

In addition many who avoid going to the doctor due to cost factors or inability to pay may just wait and wait until their symptoms become unavoidable and at the same time more expensive to treat.

Once this critical first step establishing entitlement happens, the rest of the puzzle can start to fall into place.. 

[Faux Pas]

Tort reform is only a part of the problem.

The huge parts:

Pharmaceuticals and extraordinary measures deemed necessary for end of life care.  It seems all are still after that (expensive) elixir that will prolong life but statistically does not.  It is a big money maker though.

There is a big difference between a HMO negotiating kickbacks for pharma and a country leveraging lower prices.  Instead of devoting a third or more of expensive resources trying to cure instead of providing a measure of comfort for those who will pass on put those funds to use in preventative medicine...

Actually Obamacare is not radical enough..  Miss your mandated yearly checkup or follow up appointments and you should be fined instead.  That will increase longevity and quality of life.

Healthcare is a benefit for society, a bottom up environment.  Once the general population grasps that concept things will change and objections will fall.

As an expat living overseas, I have never, ever seen a medical bill.. with one exception - a minor procedure while visiting in US.  The lab costs were twice that what the doctor charged.

I think when you get down to the nuts and bolts you'd likely find that few are against a universal healthcare system. What I, and many in my particular circle oppose is it being an entity of this lazy, polarized, corrupt government we have. A healthcare system instituted and run by the same people who give us the IRS and the Department of Energy. Our government isn't capable. Reference the current national debt. I don't wish to assign these people with my insurance premiums or rely on them for my care. The cost of the Obamacare has doubled since the initial ramming down the throats just 3 years ago. It's doubled in 3 years. Do you not see where this is heading?

[BC]

I think when you get down to the nuts and bolts you'd likely find that few are against a universal healthcare system. What I, and many in my particular circle oppose is it being an entity of this lazy, polarized, corrupt government we have. A healthcare system instituted and run by the same people who give us the IRS and the Department of Energy. Our government isn't capable. Reference the current national debt. I don't wish to assign these people with my insurance premiums or rely on them for my care. The cost of the Obamacare has doubled since the initial ramming down the throats just 3 years ago. It's doubled in 3 years. Do you not see where this is heading?

Actually no one can see where it is heading, especially before June.  I am quite familiar with socialized medicine throughout a good part of Europe and know it can work if there is a will to do so.  That 'will' is obviously ignored with 'political will' ruling in favor of bizness.  At the same time the costs going forward with or without a program is massive.  I think what is happening is that 'all is well' until the crisis hits.. and it will be a big one. 

I do get your point though and even agree..  Add unlimited corporate election contributions to the mix and I really get it.  Democracy? Try rule by lobby.

Maybe the answer is simply to do nothing..  Care will have to be cut for those that cannot pay.  This might lead to lower life expectancy which would also work positively for programs like social security in the longer run.

As stated upthread, Obamacare did not go far enough.  Something much more radical is needed.

In Germany, there are around a dozen government health insurers that compete for the business.  Some even offer a few perks, but there is a minimum coverage level set by the government, profits are capped and all contribute to a superfund to balance the risks.  Everyone is guaranteed coverage but those with higher income can opt for a number of private insurers.  Co-pay is quite reasonable, maybe 50 bucks a quarter and a small co-pay for medicine with emphasis on generics, usually a couple bucks.

[Darth_Budda]

I think when you get down to the nuts and bolts you'd likely find that few are against a universal healthcare system. What I, and many in my particular circle oppose is it being an entity of this lazy, polarized, corrupt government we have. A healthcare system instituted and run by the same people who give us the IRS and the Department of Energy. Our government isn't capable. Reference the current national debt. I don't wish to assign these people with my insurance premiums or rely on them for my care. The cost of the Obamacare has doubled since the initial ramming down the throats just 3 years ago. It's doubled in 3 years. Do you not see where this is heading?

Maybe we should let let the doctors run the health care system with out the politician... Worker run cooperatives on a massive scale. 

[BC]

Worker run cooperatives on a massive scale.

Well, doctor overbilling is a problem..

But the general idea is to get everyone enrolled in some program.  That's the only way to spread the risk and provide leverage against suppliers and healthcare providers.

[Faux Pas]

Actually no one can see where it is heading, especially before June.  I am quite familiar with socialized medicine throughout a good part of Europe and know it can work if there is a will to do so.  That 'will' is obviously ignored with 'political will' ruling in favor of bizness.  At the same time the costs going forward with or without a program is massive.  I think what is happening is that 'all is well' until the crisis hits.. and it will be a big one. 

I do get your point though and even agree..  Add unlimited corporate election contributions to the mix and I really get it.  Democracy? Try rule by lobby.

Maybe the answer is simply to do nothing..  Care will have to be cut for those that cannot pay.  This might lead to lower life expectancy which would also work positively for programs like social security in the longer run.

As stated upthread, Obamacare did not go far enough.  Something much more radical is needed.

In Germany, there are around a dozen government health insurers that compete for the business.  Some even offer a few perks, but there is a minimum coverage level set by the government, profits are capped and all contribute to a superfund to balance the risks.  Everyone is guaranteed coverage but those with higher income can opt for a number of private insurers.  Co-pay is quite reasonable, maybe 50 bucks a quarter and a small co-pay for medicine with emphasis on generics, usually a couple bucks.

It's a political football. Two Democratic Presidents have used it to get elected. Neither with any intention of actually serving the need, just serving their purpose. There are a number of models that can actually work and not put the burden on the working taxpayer. The first move would be to take politics completely out of the equation but, that will truly be a cold day in Hell in this country.

If Obamacare were to continue it would only be a matter of time before the politicians from both sides would be passing laws to allow themselves access to the massive amounts of money it would generate.

[newjason]

This Healthcare issue is a very slippery slope.
While affordable care is what we all can agree on, The way it is being brought to fruition is not.
This at one time was a free country.
How can the government of a free country, FORCE you to purchase medical insurance? 
By being told what we need, we are not free to choose.
We are free t choose to pay, but not free to opt out.
This is insane.

Let me put this in perspective.


===============ATTENTION========================================
Next week, Google, along with it's advertisers, sponsors,  and Data collection Firms, have been awarded the Government Contract for the new
UNIVERSAL CLEAN INTERNET INTEROPERABILITY COLLECTIVE
or
UCIIC

This new legislation will revolutionize the way we communicate over the internet and across all data networks. 
from this point forward,  when you log on to the internet,  you and all of your data will be re - directed through a special proxy network where your activities will be preformed in a secure area and will be monitored and if needed, censored to make a better safer experience for all Americans.  Google will be introducing the new IRONFIST Browser, it will feature targeted ADS, specific to you and your habits.
 All of your personal information will be given to Google and Kept safely In their network Databases. This information will be evaluated continually by google and reported to the Government for future evidence and creation of your specific profile. 
This IRONFIST browser will be the most beneficial tool for everyone, as it will  be the Only Browser that will be able to access the New Internet.
If you attempt to access the New Internet with any other browser, it will no longer work, as Google
has worked with the Government and re-written all the networking Protocalls, forming a Standard that will be the best for Everyone.  If you are caught tampering with IRONFIST, Google.s New Internet, its proxies, or protocalls, You will be arrested immediately and punished with a $1000 fine and 90 days Collecting Personal Information from your fellow Americans.  We know what is best for Americans, and  We bring Affordable NEW Internet to Everyone. The Internet is available to everyone, and the Cost to Americans is only &399.99 / month
This monthly charge with be automatically deducted from you Income, each and every month, beginning Next Week.  Since all existing network technologies will no longer function on the New Internet, all existing data shall be come the property of the US government, Google, and the Original owner of the content, It will be archived and stored automatically, and over the transition period, will become obsolete and no longer needed by our Citizens and will be conveniently destroyed for you.
Since Google IRON uses Data collection and censoring technologies and sends data to real-time monitoring stations,  there now will be only one web site  called  Social-Space  and will be your only source for all your New Internet activities.
You are required to login at least 2 times per day. If you are unable , or un willing to login,  You will be taken through a training course to educate you on the err of your ways.
The monthly charge is for all Americans, and Is non-negotiable.  You will be charged this charge without exception, and you can-not opt out or choose another solution as The New Internet is for Everyone.

++++++++++++=============+++++++++++++++++++

So after you are forced to have healthcare insurance, what is next?
Your Internet?
Your Car?
Social Justice For All


If we live in a free country, then we have the right to say ,
No, the government does NOT know what is best for me.
If I want to Eat Big Macs 5 times A day, It's my choice.
If I want To Smoke Cigarettes, and Eat Fat for desert,  I will.
If ibecome 500 pounds and a walking Cancer Culture,  THAT IS MY LIFE, and there fore my choice. If I choose to watch TV and Drink  Pepsi and eat Cheetoes all day On sundays while I watch football, and do not attend church,  Tough Banannas. I can. I am Responsible for what I do. No one else. If I make good choices, who is to thank?  I am. If I make BAD choices, why is to blame?  I am.  I am the only one who can control my destiny, I make the choices, Not the government.

No one should have the power to force their Will upon me, unless I have the same and equal power to force my will upon them.


Now of course all of this is fiction and presented as satire. to prove a point.  Once you allow your freedom to be imposed upon by a government that thinks it knows what is better for you than you do, it will never end.

Then you loose your freedom to post your opinions openly and while not everyone agrees, thinks, or even acts the same, We all have an opportunity to have a voice and a choice.
Thanks to DAN and the Moderating Crew, or lack thereof. 
 

I predict that I will be the center of alot of sharp opposition, but that just proves my point, the fact that you can disagree  openly, and the fact that I can take it, we have those choices.  Don't let the government change that.
 

If you don't think obamaCare is BAD   read the damn Bill.   it's 1250 pages.  I read it. It is scary.  Congress did not read it,  most citizens have never read it.  How can you know what it is, if you don't read the Legislation?

[Darth_Budda]

I live in New York,,,

They force me to buy car insurance, If I choose to drive a car on Public roads,,,,,

This is nothing new.. So I don't see how it could be unconstitutional...

I would much prefer, Single payer gov't health care.. I can pay my medical premiums through my taxes.. 

EDIT:

It's kinda like private schools paid for with vouchers...

You get a voucher which is government money because people don't feel like fixing the system.

Than people take this tax money and give it to a private company...
I don't want my taxes going to support private schools.. But no one ever asked me...


No society on earth is free,,

[Gator]

I live in New York,,,

They force me to buy car insurance, If I choose to drive a car on Public roads,,,,,

This is nothing new.. So I don't see how it could be unconstitutional..

A quick lesson:  There are two stark differences in your auto insurance from Obamacare:

1,  You have the choice to not own a car.

2.  States' rights - political rights reserved for state governments vs. the Federal government.  Federal law is binding on states only if enacted  in accord with constitutionally granted powers.  Any law that exceeds such powers is voidable.   This is so basic to the American way.
 
We all agree that healthcare needs major overhaul.  If  3  years ago Obama had endeavored to work with the democratically Republican members of Congress, this would not be an issue today, and our country would have in place a better system.  With a majority in Congress, Obama had the authority and power to ignore the Republicans and that is what he did.  Not one Republican voted for the Bill.  Not one.   
 
A real leader would have used his influence.   If you examine history of leadership, the best leaders rely far more on influence than power and authority.  For examples, consider the recent toppling of government leaders in the Middle East.  Many people voted for Obama because of the perception that he would be a leader for all of us.  Surprise!



 

[BC]

I live in New York,,,

They force me to buy car insurance, If I choose to drive a car on Public roads,,,,,

This is nothing new.. So I don't see how it could be unconstitutional...

Was thinking along the same lines.

The primary reason for car insurance is to cover damages that one inflicts on others and to the public property.  Run into a light pole or guardrail  and your insurance pays for repair or a new pole.  It also addresses damages that would go way beyond the means of a citizen to self insure.

When someone without insurance turns up at the ER, this does damage the public and the amounts we talk about these days for treatment of serious and almost unavoidable illness is also beyond the means of citizens to self insure.

However...

Congress adopted the McCarran-Ferguson Act in 1945, which declared that states should regulate the business of insurance and to affirm that the continued regulation of the insurance industry by the states is in the public's best interest.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Insurance

This I believe might be a hitch before SCOTUS..

But.... healthcare programs like medicare and medicaid are federal IIRC, so might make the discussion moot as it would be very silly in a mobile society to keep health insurance regulation at the state level. 

[BC]

A quick lesson:  There are two stark differences in your auto insurance from Obamacare:

1,  You have the choice to not own a car.

2.  States' rights - political rights reserved for state governments vs. the Federal government.  Federal law is binding on states only if enacted  in accord with constitutionally granted powers.  Any law that exceeds such powers is voidable.   This is so basic to the American way.
 
We all agree that healthcare needs major overhaul.  If  3  years ago Obama had endeavored to work with the democratically Republican members of Congress, this would not be an issue today, and our country would have in place a better system.  With a majority in Congress, Obama had the authority and power to ignore the Republicans and that is what he did.  Not one Republican voted for the Bill.  Not one.   
 
A real leader would have used his influence.   If you examine history of leadership, the best leaders rely far more on influence than power and authority.  For examples, consider the recent toppling of government leaders in the Middle East.  Many people voted for Obama because of the perception that he would be a leader for all of us.  Surprise!

Gator,

For the majority of Americans, is it realistic or even possible to live without a car?  I don't think that is a reasonable choice.

State rights as addressed above.  Congress can pass laws assigning regulatory power to states or deem it a federal task.. they do it all the time. FDA vs gun control for example. It's a choice.  I do agree though that there is a grey zone with Obamacare, one that SCOTUS will figure out.

As to passing the law, a new President has to first build influence but even that is not really his job.  His job is simply to make proposals to Congress and to sign or veto what they spit out that's it.  You're right though all the politicking messes things up quite a bit.

Can you recall any healthcare proposals the Republicans proposed at the time Obamacare was passed?  I'd really be interested to find out what their ideas were.

[newjason]

They force you to have auto insurance because you CHOOSE to drive an auto mobile, which is a privilege and you have a choice to do  it or not.

[Gator]

As to passing the law, a new President has to first build influence but even that is not really his job.  His job is simply to make proposals to Congress and to sign or veto what they spit out that's it.

Thank you!  Yes, that is his legal authority.    He also had the power in the form of a Democrat majority in Congress, given by the new members swept into office on his coat tails.    Where was his influence?   You have children.  What works best with them:  authority, power or influence?
 

one that SCOTUS will figure out   

Have you been reading Obama's combative questioning of the Supreme Court's authority?   

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/combative-obama-warns-supreme-court-health-law-192629533.html   

Our elected leader has a strange sense of what is right and wrong.
 
 

Can you recall any healthcare proposals the Republicans proposed at the time Obamacare was passed?  I'd really be interested to find out what their ideas were.
   

I recall multiple bills. Even today some new attempts are being floated. 
 
 

[Gator]

This sign says it all.

[BC]

Thank you!  Yes, that is his legal authority.    He also had the power in the form of a Democrat majority in Congress, given by the new members swept into office on his coat tails.    Where was his influence?   You have children.  What works best with them:  authority, power or influence?

Gator,

even with a couple kids  it takes time to find the right mix.  Trying to do it with 535 kids... I don't think anyone can.

 

Have you been reading Obama's combative questioning of the Supreme Court's authority?   

Our elected leader has a strange sense of what is right and wrong.

Yeah, but hard to tell who's spinning the best with it.. media or pundits

Seems there are different views on presidents criticizing SCOTUS.

http://mediamatters.org/research/201001290019

Right-wing media are attacking President Obama for his criticism of the recent Supreme Court decision in Citizens United v. FEC during the State of the Union, calling it "unprecedented" and accusing the president of "intimidation." In fact, Obama's comments were not "unprecedented"; Presidents Ronald Reagan and George W. Bush have previously used the State of the Union to criticize judicial actions, including those of the Supreme Court.

http://tucsoncitizen.com/usa-today-news/2012/03/26/santorum-criticizes-romney-at-supreme-court/

Rick Santorum took his presidential campaign to the U.S. Supreme Court, arguing that he is the best GOP candidate to repeal the national health care law.As the nine justices began three days of oral arguments on President Obama’s health care law, Santorum pressed his case today against Mitt Romney outside the court building. Protesters could be heard chanting “health care is a right.”

I recall multiple bills. Even today some new attempts are being floated.

Any details?  I guess I missed it but would be interested to see what they did propose aside from cutting medicare and such.  Was there any proposal that included universal health care?

[BC]

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/04/04/us-usa-obama-congress-idUSBRE83310N20120404

How many years did it take to figure this out and start doing something about it?

Shame on Obama and every President before....

Hope there is more to come along these lines.