Getting Sole Custody

[johnichka]

Not going to be able to leave UKraine without an Official Document issued by the courts.  When we left to head back to the USA from Ukraine last Summer, Passport Control in Kiev was very agressive in ensuring that my wife had the legal right to take Anna out of the Country  - the daughter was 8.  The Passport Control Agent asked who I was, and when I said I was the Step-Dad, she immediately dimissed me and dealt strictly with my wife.  She had the Official Court Document that stated she had full sole custody - they scrutinized very thoroughly and called over a Supervisor to reveiw it.  Then they allowed us through.
 
Interesting, when leaving the USA for Ukraine from O'Hare, the ticket agent asked for proof that my wife had sole custody and had a Court Document to prove it - otherwise, they were not going to issue a boarding pass for Anna.
 
Xman, I can elaborate on how she was able to get sole custody if you care to hear.  Initially, it was a similar situation to yours.  And I think it may have been in the same area as your lady friend.  The Court was in Ivano-Frankvisk - north of Chernivtsy.
 
John

[mendeleyev]

John's post above is spot on.

I've seen two heart wrenching instances at FSU airports regarding complications for a child leaving the country. Both were adoption cases. Today with human trafficking being at the forefront of most international police agencies (FBI, Interpol, etc), it is not a wise strategy to plan for bribes or flying off to third countries. Not to mention the lack of morality in those strategies.

Did you know that one of the FBI/Interpol hotspots today are the countries south of Russia, such as Turkey and the "Stans" in regards to illegal movement (trafficking) of FSU women and children? Human movement of women and children out of the FSU and to a Western nation is monitored these days.
 
I'm going to say something straight: We don't know the father. How do I know that? Simple, if we knew them these type of conversations wouldn't be happening. We are relying on information solely from someone who divorced him. There are two sides to every divorce. The FSU has lagged behind in father's rights and in some/many cases the reason he is not a part of the child's life is because he has been denied access or granted only very extremely limited access. Don't insert yourself into an international human trafficking crime based on the word of someone you've visited a few times. Be smart--take some extra time to follow the law and use that time to get to know the person you're marrying.

Many of these fathers are frightened about the prospect of never seeing his child again. Wouldn't you be too? A proper legal solution gives him reassurance too.

My comments are not a condemnation of men who've had to pay in the past to get around a corrupt situation. There are absentee fathers in the FSU just like anywhere else.

Regardless of what we've seen in the past the political environment is different and the present reality is that as John says, this will be checked when leaving the FSU and again at the point of entry. Do it right and you'll breeze thru passport control and bring them home.

[OlgaH]

I think Vaughn's experience is much more in line with reality.
 

and not only about "babushka's network 

 

Leads GOB to believe that $$$ may be what he (RM) is really "fighting" for. 
 
GOB

Isn't a favorite line in the MOB "all the Russian men are alcoholics and bad fathers and all the American women are spoiled feminist bitch!s?     It makes both sides feel better 

What chance does  an American mave has to know if his RW tells him the truth? What chance does he have to check that her ex-husband has all the records and proofs he has been paying alimony regularly? Do you know that sometimes the Russian fathers also have to fight for their right to see their children and sometimes RW don't let them and even set children against a father not because they are bad fathers, but because of their own spite, hate and jealousy.

[Gator]

I'm going to say something straight: We don't know the father. How do I know that? Simple, if we knew them these type of conversations wouldn't be happening. We are relying on information solely from someone who divorced him. There are two sides to every divorce. The FSU has lagged behind in father's rights and in some/many cases the reason he is not a part of the child's life is because he has been denied access or granted only very extremely limited access. Don't insert yourself into an international human trafficking crime based on the word of someone you've visited a few times. Be smart--take some extra time to follow the law and use that time to get to know the person you're marrying.

Very reasonable: however, we are talking about an emotional relationship, namely love and marriage.   That is why some contact with the father is necessary.  That will be an interesting conversation.
In my case the father literally had disappeared and had not been seen for years.  The court before awarding sole custody required the police to do a six-month search.  The police found no trace.   The mother was convinced that the father was in the forest, about two feet deep.

[mendeleyev]

The court before awarding sole custody required the police to do a six-month search.  The police found no trace.

You did the right thing and were rewarded. 

[LAman]

X-man, maybe you need a better lawyer?
I do know of two instances where the father had to be located and brought into court and ordered for back pay in child support if he didn't sign release of child. Needless to say the mother was given sole custody.  It was a long drawn out process. It made me really think twice about ladies w/kids.
I do also know of a $7000 'bribe' for signature.

[XMan]

Had a long reply written and then a technology hiccough, so this will be shorter.
How well does anyone ever know anyone?
That having been said, I have someone I consider a close friend who has known the lady in question for quite some time.  I hope that is worth something. 
It is a situation where the two people who were married are not on speaking terms.  He has not seen his child nor paid support in many months. 
Whether he knows about me, or about her intentions, I have no idea. 
Could it be about money? 
Sure.  The last straw in their relationship was when he tried to borrow a large sum from the lady in question's mother. 
Could it be strictly about his child and his desire to have a close relationship?
Sure.
However, she is convinced that he would cut off his own arm just to throw it at her.  In other words, a lot of spite and vitriol. 
Could he just be a bastard?
Sure.
I know a woman with 2 kids (now 8 and 2).  Smart, attractive, works very hard.  Was married for 7 years.  Husband divorced her, married another woman, knocked her up.  Never asked to see his kids again.  This was after he borrowed 20 grand from her parents "for his business."  Then he told his ex she needed to sell the apartment (which her parents bought for them when they got married) because he deserved part of it since it was "theirs when they were married."  So in this case, a real story, not an urban legend about the terrible Ukrainian or Russian husband. 
I only know one thing.  If I were new and starting out in this venture, I would think hard and long about whether I would even consider a woman with a child.  If I did, and she did not already have sole custody, I would walk away before I got in too deep.

[XMan]

I should add that I would not consider any steps that were not 100% legal.

[XMan]

Xman, I can elaborate on how she was able to get sole custody if you care to hear.  Initially, it was a similar situation to yours.  And I think it may have been in the same area as your lady friend.  The Court was in Ivano-Frankvisk - north of Chernivtsy.
 
John

If you have time to PM me, please do.

[XMan]

I should also add that part of her documentation for the court includes a dozen affadavits (or whatever the equivalent is there) with photocopies of passports of those who wrote those documents supporting her desire for sole custody and the reasons behind it.  So it is not as if this was done on a whim. 
As far as the attorney, maybe he is a lousy one.  Supposedly she sought out recommendations from people in the know.  It's difficult to judge all this from thousands of miles away.  And I certainly know nothing about the Ukrainian legal system, other than it is one of the most corrupt in the world.
You know, it would just have been a lot easier had I wanted to be a sex tourist. 
Maybe those guys have the right idea after all.
 

[Gator]

XMan,
Hang in there.   
Exhaust all of your options.   The paperwork can be very frustrating.  Just think how she feels.  You do have a close friend who knows your woman.  That is more than most guys have.
It sounds as if contacting the man will require an intermediary.  The attorney could try.  I have no ideas on how to vet an Ukrainian attorney.   
 

[GoodOlBoy]

Many of these fathers are frightened about the prospect of never seeing his child again. Wouldn't you be too? A proper legal solution gives him reassurance too.

GOB agrees.
 
I also think with that "reassurance" should go a big heaping helping of RESPONSIBILITY.
 
You know, that pesky little thing called child support ( the one he is supposed to be making  back in the motherland ).
 
Well, when the child is relocated to the GoodOl' USA, shouldn't the payments continue to arrive here?
 
Wouldn't this help him with his "reassurance" process?
 
I mean, just because his child comes here doesn't mean she/he is no longer his child.... right?
 
After all, we are talking about good R/U fathers here.... correct?
 
GOB
 
PS.... See my next post.

[GoodOlBoy]

So in this case, a real story, not an urban legend about the terrible Ukrainian or Russian husband. 

There is a whole slew of "real stories" where I live, Sunny Isles Beach (a heavily populated Russian/Ukrainian community).
 
I can't even give you an accurate number (way over 20) of the R/U women who have told me that the R/U father's of their children have absolutely NOTHING to do with them.
 
I am not only talking about money here, I am also talking about a phone call, birthday card, e-mail or even a frick'n stuffed teddy bear.
 
Are these woman ALL evil shrews?
 
GOB doesn't think so.
 
I won't even post some of the stories that these women have told me about RM and their wonderful "family behavior". 
 
I will only say this: "Many R/U men treat their previous children as if they don't even exist".
 
GOB

[ML]

Interesting, when leaving the USA for Ukraine from O'Hare, the ticket agent asked for proof that my wife had sole custody and had a Court Document to prove it - otherwise, they were not going to issue a boarding pass for Anna.

What's with that . . . since girl was not being taken from her country of birth?

Also, why wouldn't the same agent be asking same proof of every person who was taking a child out of USA.  Many such children even travel with someone other than their parents.

[OlgaH]

I am not only talking about money here, I am also talking about a phone call, birthday card, e-mail or even a frick'n stuffed teddy bear.
 
Are these woman ALL evil shrews?
 
GOB doesn't think so.

of course not all.

About a frick'n stuffed teddy bear... 16-17 years ago I was working as a kindergarten teacher. A father came for a birthday visit and brought a cute talking-dancing teddy bear to his son. Unfortunately for him and his son his ex-wife came early than usual that day, usually she picked up her child very late, She tore that frick'n  teddy bear to pieces right before not only my eyes but her scared and sobbing child's eyes. I had to take the child to another room while she was hissing like crazy in a hall at the child's father. Later after recording the bruises on the child's body and face (the child was falling very often according to the mother), our kindergarten physician, a psychologist and I took the witness stand. Father finally got a full custody because the mother posed a threat to the child's physical and mental health. It took him two years to get the custody.     


Another story from that period. My group was 4-5 y.o. children. While I was busy with children I heard a girl  screaming in our bathroom. Our nanny and I ran to the bathroom and saw how a boy was holding the screaming girl under a faucet watering her. I asked him why he did it. He told the girl was saying the very bad words. So, I asked him why he was watering her, his answer was it was what his father did when the mother came home drunk after her work. His mother was working at the chocolate factory's liquor department.

[Muzh]

What's with that . . . since girl was not being taken from her country of birth?

Also, why wouldn't the same agent be asking same proof of every person who was taking a child out of USA.  Many such children even travel with someone other than their parents.

ML, when was the last time you took your toddler out of the country?

I took mine last summer and yes, they asked me for the permission from his mother and it was notarized. I don't think they would have taken a scribble on a piece of paper. Also, my MIL was asked at Boryspil for papers from her grandson's parents giving her permission to travel to the US, EVEN when he had a US passport.

Yes, they do.

[BC]

ML, when was the last time you took your toddler out of the country?

I took mine last summer and yes, they asked me for the permission from his mother and it was notarized. I don't think they would have taken a scribble on a piece of paper. Also, my MIL was asked at Boryspil for papers from her grandson's parents giving her permission to travel to the US, EVEN when he had a US passport.

Yes, they do.

Seems some notaries have caught on to this practice and offer 'emergency' or 'mobile' notary services near major airports.

http://www.notaryingeorgia.com/notaryemergencyairline.html

http://www.newyorkmobilenotaryservice.com/airlineemergency.html

AAA even has info regarding this issue and a sample form and tips.

If your child is traveling with one parent: The letter needs to be signed by the parent not on the trip. I recommend you take two originals in the event immigration authorities need to keep one on entry at your destination.

http://www.travelviews.aaa.com/post/2009/05/07/Sample-Permission-Letter-for-Traveling-Child.aspx

[XMan]

Thought about posting this in a separate thread, but it applies here, so putting it below. 

This is from a gentleman who married a woman from Ukraine who has two children.  (I edited to correct some spelling and emphasize a couple of things.)
==========================================
Ukraine is very specific and very strict about this. Advice form other countries is not usually applicable to Ukraine. We also had two sons that came with Alla.

1. Get this done NOW, before you file the petition

2. You need (MUST HAVE) a letter from the father SPECIFICALLY allowing the mother to take the child to THE UNITED STATES for PERMANENT RESIDENCY.   NO OTHER WORDING IS ACCEPTABLE. The letter must be notarized and you must include a copy of the father's passport photo and signature page.   No exceptions UNLESS you have a court order allowing her this and it is highly unlikely you would get a court order.

3. The letter should also state that it allows her to leave Ukraine to the UNITED STATES with the children on future visits. You WILL need this letter each time you leave Ukraine until the children are age 16 or older.  NO EXCEPTIONS  Even AFTER they become US Residents with green cards.

4. Bribery usually works. Fortunately bribes come pretty cheap in Ukraine.  If he owes back child support then offer to trade him his back child support and all future support in return for his signature.  Have an attorney prepare the letter and the court order relieving him of child support.  have them both go and sign ALL DOCUMENTS at the same time.

The sooner you do this the easier it is.  As soon as he knows she is leaving he will develop an interest in his child, you will be amazed.  The more desperately you need his signature (closer to the interview) the more it will cost you.

I strongly recommend you DO NOT proceed with the visa process for your fiancee until this is settled. No woman in her right mind will leave her child behind and if that hurdle is not cleared first. it WILL be a problem down the road!!                                    
            ===============================
She seems afraid of her ex, so I have no idea how to make this happen.  She really wanted to avoid all contact, so having her ask him for something is akin to asking her to swim the English channel. 

My Russian is limited, Ukrainian non-existent.  I could arrange travel in about 2 months, be there for moral support perhaps.  No idea what land mines I might be walking into.  No clue if the attorney would be any good or handle this properly.  I don't know.  It's a huge hurdle, and that is just the beginning, of course.