Sometimes it's better to Listen than to Wish

[gaspar227]

So been a while since I posted.  This is a 1.5 trips report (1 Ukraine, 1 'vacation).

Back in April 7-14, I decided to go visit my girl in Ukraine for her birthday.   I seriously just called in sick and made a trip.  This was a lot of fun, for the most part, but also many of the red flags I had discussed (more like giant red flaming banners) reared their heads. But being a man and very stupid, I chose to ignore them.

BUT!  the trip was great.  Arrived via Houston/Istanbul into Odessa.  My girl met me at the airport again, and we were off to Daribaskya.  I learned my lesson and booked everything myself.  The apartment was a honeymoon suite right off the main square with a jacuzzi tub in the bedroom.  This was amazing.  First spring was in the trees, it was actually shorts weather the whole time.   I was really confident of my blossoming relationship.

I had asked her to find things to do, so we went to the Circus.  It was cute, very kid-focused but fun.  We walked around some of the bazaars, I mean I hit my 10,000 steps every day.  We went to the port and took pictures on the Odessa letters there.  It was a lot of fun.  We even did the zoo!

We walked  Daribaskya at night.  I did Easter dinner with her parents, that was great. 

Things were good.  Pretty much a flawless trip.  I had a nice laptop I refurbished for her, I brought her my LG G5 after I upgraded to a G6.  A couple other little things, and I dropped everything and made a point of being there on her birthday.  These were not extravagant gifts, but still I thought it was a lot of effort and time to setup all her accounts and everything for her, bought her the case she wanted, wireless earbuds...i mean the whole setup.

Every morning (ish) was a walk to the Athena for coffee and something from the grocery.  I was feeling like a seasoned pro.  The weather was amazing, I missed the snow, and the cold that was after I left.  We did Compote for beautiful pastries.

Then the crazy started to show really towards the end.  She started asking me about my ex girlfriend relentlessly (who happens to be an ex model).  I told her that was the past, but she wouldn't let it go.  She would get angry and ask me why I still love her.  I mean this is someone I haven't talked to in 2 years.    Then it was talk about my kids.  Why did I have to see them still.  they were just reminders of my ex wife she would say.    But then she would go back to being straight up cool and apologizing saying she had drank too much (which she didn't really .... YET).  It was Jekyll and Hyde but I was choosing to overlook the Hyde. 

On the last night we went to see a play called Viy.  Now I speak no Russian, but this is a really strange play that she has somehow got in her head is like her love.  Basically some guy sees an ugly girl who thinks he's beautiful.  She says she wants to be with him, but he calls her ugly and says he would never love such an ugly woman.  In reality she's a witch and the daughter of a weird demon guy that's disguised as a regular looking man. 

He wanders off with his buddies, then they find a strange house, where this witch lives...but now she's beautiful.  They start goofing around, then she dies.  Her dad wants him to watch her body and pray for 3 nights, he finally agrees.  night 1 all kinds of weird stuff happens.  The dad bribes him with booze for night 2, now she turns into a witch and chases him around, but he has a salt circle or something.  Night 3 her dad bribes him to stick around with gold, he does, then a bunch of demons come out and the dad turns into Viy and he ends up hanging himself. 

I'm tripped out by this crazy play, and she's trying to make me understand that this is love to her or some crap. 

Anyway I'm out of there the next day and things are OK still, but the weirdness is on the horizon.

SO!!  Part .5 of my site visit.  I had a european trip planned.  a week in Berlin/Geneva/Amsterdam with a Rhine river cruise in week 2. 

In my wisdom, (I have an active K1 application still going -- soon to be cancelled) I thought it smart to have her meet my parents.

The week leading up to the visit the number of crazy, strange outlandish and absurd things coming out of this woman's mouth were remarkable.  Also with vacillating I love you/ I hate you.  Then she's going to cancel, then she's not going to cancel...and I chalk it all up to nerves...

BUT she really starts talking crap AS I'M ON THE PLANE.  Don't make me sit by your daughter (she's coming too) don't send me pictures of her.  I'm not going if you make me look at her.  I mean nasty stuff.  But I'm committed.  I think she's just really freaked to meet my parents.  then she starts in on how she's 'late' from our time in April. I seem to remember a really crabby couple days in there, so now I think maybe she's just PMS and that's what this is all about.  Regardless...I'm stubborn.

Needless to say much of the trip is ruined by one crazy stunt after another.  One minute she tells my mom I yell at her and she breaks down crying (the closest thing to yelling was me saying her name 10 times because she ignored me) then she won't walk across a lawn and wants me to carry her so her shoes don't get dirty...I mean WOW!!

I don't have a lock on my phone, BUT I just got a new one as mentioned and I have virtually nothing on it.  Well...thanks to google, my history was there from before her for some things.  she finds a couple of loveme.com posts (complete hogwash btw) I clicked on.  She also finds a message from my ex girlfriend's mom that says something like, she still loves me etc.  My reply was like...um, if that's the case why are you writing to me?  Thanks but no thanks.
 
ALL NIGHT she goes through my phone then wakes me up and starts in on me about everything.  Screen caps, bookmarks, everything is thrown in my face.  I look at her phone for a second...a glance and I see Badoo and mambo loaded with like 50 numbers on them each of unread messages.  The chick flipped out.  So I book her an early flight home from Geneva.  Then she begs me...crys, promises things are different and I'm able to refund the ticket so I say OK, stay.

Next night same exact thing!!! rinse repeat. 

Last night, i put fingerprint on the phone, she literally used my finger while I slept and was at it again.  This time she sat on my daughters bed and had her help translate text messages.  I mean...wow.  The next day my dad says he has a nightmare that she's gone psycho on my daughter and me.  I mean she was fatal attraction wacko.

OMG -- nightmare as I've never seen.
 
So I finally get her on a plane, too many stupid things happen to even talk about them to get her there, and when she gets home, I get one viber "I'm home" "I love you" I don't reply for like 12 hours and she's cut all our chat history, changed her picture that had me in it to a single and I have not heard from her since (I just got back from Frankfort today).  I attached my last sighting of her.

So as far as trip reports go... this was one of the wackiest things I've ever had happen to me.  I mean you can't make this stuff up.  I gotta learn to listen to the guys that say stuff about immature women and just move on.
What a waste of time she turned out to be and really disappointing. 

PS Odessa is great in the spring, but I plan on trying another trip in July just to see what's up and meet up with a couple of friends I met there.  Maybe a girl or two as well -- but not this one.  my parents were like...you need to stay as far away from this girl as possible. 

[msmob]

O..M...G..

What a trip report - *I* feel bruised - just - reading it

Well now, ..... did she ( perhaps ) have had some trust issues ? .....

For the benefit of others - did you learn something - that in hindsight would have warned you off, before ?

Don't let her put you off the venture...

[Boethius]

On the last night we went to see a play called Viy.  Now I speak no Russian, but this is a really strange play that she has somehow got in her head is like her love.  Basically some guy sees an ugly girl who thinks he's beautiful.  She says she wants to be with him, but he calls her ugly and says he would never love such an ugly woman.  In reality she's a witch and the daughter of a weird demon guy that's disguised as a regular looking man. 

He wanders off with his buddies, then they find a strange house, where this witch lives...but now she's beautiful.  They start goofing around, then she dies.  Her dad wants him to watch her body and pray for 3 nights, he finally agrees.  night 1 all kinds of weird stuff happens.  The dad bribes him with booze for night 2, now she turns into a witch and chases him around, but he has a salt circle or something.  Night 3 her dad bribes him to stick around with gold, he does, then a bunch of demons come out and the dad turns into Viy and he ends up hanging himself. 

I'm tripped out by this crazy play, and she's trying to make me understand that this is love to her or some crap. 

Viy - written by a virtually unknown Ukrainian named Nikolai Vasylovych Gogol.  You may want to look him up.

Viy was in a collection of short stories, titled Mirgorod.  Another of the tales in the collection is yet another virtually unknown story, titled Taras Bulba.  Mirhorod is a city in Poltava, where Gogol is from, and the stories in the collection all have Ukrainian themes or roots.

Viy is not a love story, it is a horror story.  But, Gogol was a pretty hardcore opium addict, so his brilliance is often difficult to understand.  Here's a link to the film version-



Re your daughter - this is often the case with FSUW, because in divorces, children usually "belong" to the mother.  That's cultural, though it is slowly changing.

The jealousy - difficult to know if that would have turned around with time and trust.  You didn't have enough time together to build up trust.  I liked the finger scan in the night.  That's something I would have done early in my relationship.  Instead, I just snooped around and read all the love letters his exes sent him, then interrogated him.  We managed to work through it.

[msmob]

Boethius,

you didn't ...?

Do you think this is a particular woman's trait or a function of FSUW ?

I distinctly remember coming home and finding V pointing to my computer screen of an image of a previous g/f in a bikini and asking, "WHY it was still there ?"  This is before we married.

I smiled, grabbed her - sat her on my lap - in front of the screen - and reminded her that the computer - we only had one - was shared and that my email was not password protected - hers (ALWAYS) was

Said photo's existence was unknown to me and buried DEEP in a section marked for deletion and could have been overwritten at any time.

She had used a prog to undelete

Although I 'punished' her and that was fun, she still never understood the concept of sharing....  worked both ways. ))

[Boethius]

I did. But, I was a teenager. He just laughed. I read that post to him, and said I admired the ingenuity in accessing OP’s phone with his fingerprint. It’s genius! I’d have done this at that time, but our relationship predates cellphones.  
 
I think it’s a general female trait. I think OP’s woman had either a father who cheated on her mother, or a former lover she loved with all her heart who cheated on her. Some women never get over this, but others will once the relationship is at a certain level of security and trust. This is basically about insecurity.

[JayH]

Then the crazy started to show really towards the end.  She started asking me about my ex girlfriend relentlessly (who happens to be an ex model).  I told her that was the past, but she wouldn't let it go.  She would get angry and ask me why I still love her.  I mean this is someone I haven't talked to in 2 years.    Then it was talk about my kids.  Why did I have to see them still.  they were just reminders of my ex wife she would say.    But then she would go back to being straight up cool and apologizing saying she had drank too much (which she didn't really .... YET).  It was Jekyll and Hyde but I was choosing to overlook the Hyde. 




I don't have a lock on my phone, BUT I just got a new one as mentioned and I have virtually nothing on it.  Well...thanks to google, my history was there from before her for some things.  she finds a couple of loveme.com posts (complete hogwash btw) I clicked on.  She also finds a message from my ex girlfriend's mom that says something like, she still loves me etc.  My reply was like...um, if that's the case why are you writing to me?  Thanks but no thanks.
 
ALL NIGHT she goes through my phone then wakes me up and starts in on me about everything.  Screen caps, bookmarks, everything is thrown in my face.  I look at her phone for a second...a glance and I see Badoo and mambo loaded with like 50 numbers on them each of unread messages.  The chick flipped out.  So I book her an early flight home from Geneva.  Then she begs me...crys, promises things are different and I'm able to refund the ticket so I say OK, stay.

Next night same exact thing!!! rinse repeat. 

Last night, i put fingerprint on the phone, she literally used my finger while I slept and was at it again.  This time she sat on my daughters bed and had her help translate text messages.  I mean...wow.  The next day my dad says he has a nightmare that she's gone psycho on my daughter and me.  I mean she was fatal attraction wacko.

OMG -- nightmare as I've never seen.
 

Well--   you can't say the point was not made to you on precisely this stuff-- from your previous thread

http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=22534.25

Quote from: gaspar227 on February 25, 2018, 09:12:43 PM


I mean I could go on, the red flags were everywhere, but the fact of the matter is I love crazy women, and usually I'm pretty good at corralling them for at least a time.  This is remarkably harder from 10,000 km away, however and it's very difficult to smooth talk things over when every other word in response is 'chto?'


Reply from JayH

If you are using crazy as in zany - yeah-I can understand that --but crazy --mmmm.
I can tell numerous incidents about photos . EG -- I had kept a photo because it showed my beach -- 150 metres away  the then 4 yo son of my good friends was playing in the water -- my girl spotted this and lost interest in everything else but"who is this child" -- "why have you kept photo" etc Nothing worse than seeing your credibility evaporating in the cross examination !!

More recently -- in updating computers and a new phone -- the system picked up photos I had long ago forgotten about -- 1000's of them ! At the time --I had not even looked at them for years -and did not realise they were visible on new phone .My girl picked up phone and started looking at photos ! I am still being chided over it 18 months later !

Going back a long time -- when my Ukrainian ex asked to see photos of my Aus ex --I said I did not know if I had any . Eventually - when not looking-I found old hard copy and scanned to computer. Some time later -- when talking about various things -I said I have photos . After looking very closely at each photo -- she commented that she was very pretty -- then--"you said you did not have any photos ' !!That was about 2 years after me saying I did not have !!

Same girl -- when future was being considered in Australia -in the course of discussion -it came up that my recent Aus ex did  work and live not  very far from me at all !!  Note -that relationship was 200% finished over  -- but after some time and all the details finalised  -out of necessity we still talked and then and now have a good relationship- as friends -nothing more. My Ukrainian girl hit the roof when she found this out -- and I mean exploded ! It took a long time to settle all that down .

It takes time to develop trust -- and things that you or I may consider nothing -- can be taken extremely seriously - and threaten the potential relationship !

So-- you ain't alone !!

[msmob]

Thanks for the response, Boethius

One of the first Q's SC asked me was are you a jealous man?

I responded that jealousy is normally a facet of a problem in a relationship s if you trust each other - it is not present.  I pointed out that I understood an attractive women getting looks / comments.

Apparently, that was a wise answer and all of our phones / tablets / pcs have shared emails / dropbox, etc.,

She still watches me to see if I note an attractive women and I still smile and say - when t'other lady is out of earshot ...before she can ask " yes I saw her and YES, she was pretty ... I'm not blind" and hold her hand tighter ..

{Edited to add}

She hasn't deleted photos taken by ex lovers and I deleted my life with V - believing it would be a mistake for a future partner to see.

Her photos do not phase me as it was before us...

[Boethius]

One of the lawyers I worked with (ethnically Ukrainian) said as a married man, he didn’t notice anything. A naked woman could walk past him, and his response would be “What naked woman?”  His wife was not a Slav.

[Boethius]

OP, Ukrainian cities, even big ones, are small. Were I you, I would visit another city.

[JayH]

OP --is her name Nati?

[JayH]

One of the lawyers I worked with (ethnically Ukrainian) said as a married man, he didn’t notice anything. A naked woman could walk past him, and his response would be “What naked woman?”  His wife was not a Slav.

That is the smartest way!
A couple of years ago I while staying at  a resort Hotel I got sucked into a "popka" comparison  ie  which girl had the best looking popka !
Now --even if you lady is sensational ( mine is !) there is only so many ways you can say that eg she is good for her age etc or she is much younger etc or she is built differently etc. By process of eliminationi It came down to the last 3  -- so knowing there was no way I was going to win out of any of this --I said --ok-- I will take photos and you can judge !!

[Trenchcoat]

Gaspar, I made the same mistake with the first girl I met. For the Theatre I booked seats at the side, near the front and high up. Turns out as she told me that the seats in the middle are the best even if not so close to the stage.

[krimster2]

Gaspar,

to survive in Ukraine
people at the bottom
have to lie and cheat and steal
it's like breathing there
it's a part of every person

it's rare to find someone honest there
when trying to decide on which totally hot UA woman to marry
I picked the one I thought had the most integrity and maturity
rarer than diamonds
is the honest woman in Ukraine
so I gave her a big one (diamond Jay, not what you're thinking but I gave her that to)
almost 20 yr I have known her
never once tried to deceive me on anything
a Ukrainian!!!  this is amazing!!

it was a good guess on my part she'd be this way
wish it applied to the rest of her family
who would sell a rat's asshole to a blind man
and tell him it was a wedding ring
these are average poor Ukrainians

limo will be here soon
watch the news
prepare for something big
God Is Great!

[BdHvA]

Viy - written by a virtually unknown Ukrainian named Nikolai Vasylovych Gogol.  You may want to look him up.

I would not consider Gogol unknown. When I attended a Ukraine school in America in the 1970's we had a some of his short stories/novellas to read by him. I seem to recall The Nose. We had to compare it to other writers such as Clemens and Balzac.

Some might know the musicians known as Gogol Bordello. Free Hint Lots of good stuff on You Tube.

But this 'travel report' is more like a short story - play from the Ukraine/Russian playwright and writer M. Bulgakov. Who is he one wonders, think The Master and Margarita. OK to make things simple The Rolling Stones song "Sympathy for the Devil' is largely based on this novel.

Worth noting both Gogol and Bulgakov had a tendency to burn there manuscripts and writings in despair. This travel report will not burn!

[Trenchcoat]

Gaspar in reply to the topic of this thread I think most of the time it's no bad thing to make the mistake once, you'll learn from it and why people on here say what they say. I find one mistake (in person/in reality) gives a lot more bearing to the whole FSU dating scene that then it is easier to see why people on here say what they say about other stuff.

I personally think you have a lot of balls coming back and letting others know that it didn't work out. As we know it's life and it happens, but it's something we can all learn from even as a reminder and turn a bad experience into a good one. Too many people on here have a bad experience keep it to themselves for fear if looking foolish and learn nothing. I say learn what you can, pick yourself up and give it another go, try for a better result

[ML]

In my interactions with over a hundred FSU gals, I only met a couple of Psychos like this one.  Luckily their nature was revealed in our first meeting which only lasted through a lunch.

I remember one of them kept insisting that my firm (I was on consulting assignment) would never let me go out in the town by myself, so she would look around and tell me which of the other customers were there as 'protectors' for me.  When I realized we were never going to work . . . I started wispering into my ballpoint pen; just to get her really riled up !!

The other kept telling me that she knew it was my intention to run away when the check came, so that she would be stuck with paying the bill.  It started irritating me so much that I actually started thinking about doing it !!

[BdHvA]

In my times in Ukraine, like ML only met one wacky woman. She was clearly shall we say 'unhinged' but in the States I have to interact with several fruit cakes,

It is part of the fauna.

[Boethius]

I would not consider Gogol unknown. When I attended a Ukraine school in America in the 1970's we had a some of his short stories/novellas to read by him. I seem to recall The Nose. We had to compare it to other writers such as Clemens and Balzac.

Some might know the musicians known as Gogol Bordello. Free Hint Lots of good stuff on You Tube.

But this 'travel report' is more like a short story - play from the Ukraine/Russian playwright and writer M. Bulgakov. Who is he one wonders, think The Master and Margarita. OK to make things simple The Rolling Stones song "Sympathy for the Devil' is largely based on this novel.

Worth noting both Gogol and Bulgakov had a tendency to burn there manuscripts and writings in despair. This travel report will not burn!

I was being facetious.


Gogol didn't burn his manuscript in despair.  He burned it because he was mentally ill.  He regretted his action the next day.


I have no knowledge of Bulgakov burning anything he wrote.  All his works were confiscated by authorities.

[2tallbill]

Needless to say much of the trip is ruined by one crazy stunt after another. 

This FSUW is too far down the crazy train tracks to hide it for long.
You didn't get any red flags before you got on a plane?

[Trenchcoat]

In my interactions with over a hundred FSU gals, I only met a couple of Psychos like this one.  Luckily their nature was revealed in our first meeting which only lasted through a lunch.

I remember one of them kept insisting that my firm (I was on consulting assignment) would never let me go out in the town by myself, so she would look around and tell me which of the other customers were there as 'protectors' for me.  When I realized we were never going to work . . . I started wispering into my ballpoint pen; just to get her really riled up !!

The other kept telling me that she knew it was my intention to run away when the check came, so that she would be stuck with paying the bill.  It started irritating me so much that I actually started thinking about doing it !!

I wonder if there is an inbuilt suspicion of many FSW as a part of their culture. Some may come out with their suspicions and some may keep theme hidden. As has been said on here and what I know of FSU history it probably bred a feeling of suspicion and distrust. Many FSW probably habour this as an inbuilt consciousness. Some of course are probably way more wacked out than others as we see here. I think in this case it would probably take many years just to get her to relax and learn that not everyone is a threat that it's not worth the ordeal as I think long term some of her attitudes are probably there to stay for life.

[BdHvA]

I wonder if there is an inbuilt suspicion of many FSW as a part of their culture. Some may come out with their suspicions and some may keep theme hidden. As has been said on here and what I know of FSU history it probably bred a feeling of suspicion and distrust. Many FSW probably habour this as an inbuilt consciousness. Some of course are probably way more wacked out than others as we see here. I think in this case it would probably take many years just to get her to relax and learn that not everyone is a threat that it's not worth the ordeal as I think long term some of her attitudes are probably there to stay for life.

Trenchcoat I suspect you are correct that some women of the fSU have an inbuilt suspicions that are part and parcel of there psyche. On the other side if any woman distrusted you I would guess she has a healthy sense of common sense,

[Boethius]

FSUW rarely have trust issues with FSUM. 


Think about that.

[BillyB]

Thanks for the update Gaspar. It's not an easy decision to cancel a fiancee visa but consider yourself fortunate you found out about her sooner than later. Months ago when you told us that she tattooed your name on her hand before your first visit, I suspected she'd be the jealous possessive type but I didn't want to judge at the time. I wonder what it's going to cost to remove your name from her hand?

[Jumper]

I'm sorry things went south on you.

That said, you did already have some idea that  this was a crazy train,and it could run off the rails anytime.

 Beo, mentioned a cultural trait that is something anyone should think about if you have custody of your children .

It's always bantered about her how RM are generally less accepting in marriage of women with children from previous relationships.
This trait isnt gender specific, no idea why tgats si seldom discussed.
 This situation can be an advantage to men looking, as there are many available single mothers with less prospects of marriage and a true father to their child .
True or not they feel western men, western families are more prone to readily accepting and integrating families.
  This can also be one of the more serious challenges for a single western father though.

Obviously like most anything else,it is highly individualistic, but we can only generalize here and it is a different society.

Gaspar , while believe it or not I do see some parts of this story from her side,and misunderstandings,
I really truly think you should thank your lucky stars this went south before the k1 went any further,for everyone involved sakes.

[Boethius]

It's always bantered about her how RM are generally less accepting in marriage of women with children from previous relationships. This trait isnt gender specific, no idea why that is seldom discussed.

Because it doesn't mesh with what most men want.