How important is woman's English abilities?

[525i]

During my visit in Moscow in 2004, my date wanted to say something she could not, so we went to the agency she used. She talked with interpreter and interpreter expalined "your mother...", and I did not understand her, so I asked "what about my mother?", she was confused and wondered why I asked this and finally I understood that every time interpreter said "your", she actually meant "her".

[ronin308]

I've got 2 stories of english teachers that I've discovered on my travels to Ukraine.

The first takes place around the fall of the SU.  A couple moved from China to Lviv with their teenage daughter.  The daughter had been learning english and the parents were surpised that after moving to Ukraine she started failing english classes.  To make a long story short the parents tuned the radio to an english broadcast and asked the teacher to translate.  The teacher couldn't and it was understood that this was common in the educational system.  Keep in mind this is the system most of the women in the "ideal" age range of the more reasonable people here.

I think it has gotten better as things open up and people are able to get more english exposure, which brings me to my second example.  One of the girls I was writing to was a language student who did a teaching rotation in a local high school.  The teacher she worked with constantly lectured her about her "accent" which was due to her spending time in America.

As I mentioned in my previous post most of the women who did learn the language in the past did it as a part of an academic requirement, I've learned through experience that people can get really good grades but have no practical skills in that practice.  As most of them especially in smaller towns don't think they will ever use the skill outside of school (like an english major and math) they won't continue to practice it and eventually it will fall into disuse. 

As well it's a lot easier to listen to something and translate rather than attempt to speak it.  When I first met my fiance she was in this state, often she would nod her head to what I said in English, although she could only say hello and good bye in english.

Finally I find it funny that you comment about Rvrwind's experience with a limited type of woman, when it is exactly that type of woman we are talking about.  While I don't know you, from what I read here it is you who lack the experience with the "agency girl", so most of your theories are not something you can back up other than with some good logic on parts of it. 

[ConnerVT]

[user=307]ronin308[/user] wrote:

Finally I find it funny that you comment about Rvrwind's experience with a limited type of woman, when it is exactly that type of woman we are talking about.  While I don't know you, from what I read here it is you who lack the experience with the "agency girl", so most of your theories are not something you can back up other than with some good logic on parts of it. 

I think you are speaking of me in this last paragraph, so let me explain.  Although I did not spend a lengthy career dating large portions of various agencies catalogs, I did take the agency route.  And I communicated with different types of women -- those with and without strong English skills, as well as those with and without strong agendas.  Combined with the stories (both public and private) I have heard from both men and women on the subject, I can put a few ideas together.

I also know Rvr quite well, and am certain that most of the English speaking women he has met between dating and working in the FSU have, for the most part, been associated in some manner with dating agencies.  You may think I state this as an insult to my friend Richard, but it is not.  It's just a statement of fact, nothing more.  I made an assumption (which he has not challenged) that this is where he developed his belief that strong English speakers in the FSU, actively meeting Western men, may be more likely to have an agenda based on more than a couple's mutual needs.

Is something wrong with this statement?

[ronin308]

Conner, it was actually in reply to Andrew's comments that if a woman is in an agency and not learning English she's one of the 3 things on his list and his statement about Rvr's limited exposure to FSU women.

I do agree with him that even if she doesn't speak english well now she should be able to learn it quickly, because she does have experience speaking a foreign language.  I've found this true in my case as well.

[rose]

My opinion is based on my own experience in the USSR and in the USA. I'm really ashamed to say that I was trained to be a teacher of English language in Russia. Why do I ashamed? Because even now I make mistakes.
I don't know what is going on right now in Russia with teaching English, but I knew how low was the level of teaching in 80-90s.
As to the main question, my strong opinion is that bringing here a woman who doesn't speak English is not a good start for the relashionships. From the other side, to call all women who cannot speak English "lazy" is just stupid and disrespectful. As a teacher I know perfectly well, that every person has his own ability to study, some people are better in languages, some in math. If a woman doesn't have an ability to study languages it doesn't make her lazy or stupid at all. That was a point of my prevoius posts.
It is very easy to say that she can learn while waiting her K1 visa. A lot of those women have a job, a family, and they practically don't have enough time or finances to learn English, or other language. The best way to learn foreign language is to put person into total isolation from her native language for some time.
Being isolated from her native language, woman will have to use English. You cannot reach such results in Russia.
So, do guys need to overlook women who don't speak English?
I'd say it'll depend on the expectation of the guy, and his plans for their future together. If a guy knows that he is ready to go through the ESL process, he'd better be prepared to dedicate a lot of his time to help his lady to learn English. And be very patient. Be prepared to a lot of frustration and sometimes tears of his lady. Another important moment is a guy's expectation for the future: if he expects his wife to work (I don't mean grocery store or something like that) he needs to realize that it'll take years for his lady to get there.
If man doesn't want to deal with those problems, he shouldn't even waste his and woman's (non speaker) time.
It all depends on a personal desision of a man and his ability to dedicate himself to such chellenge.
And to suggest here newbies one or the other way is just not right.


 

[Elen]

About studying foreigner languages in soviet schools.

The main foreigner language was English (then German-French - and others) It was so in my days at least

Education in secondary schools ( I mean school for 7-17 age pupils) includes 2 foreigner language lessons per week since 5th grade - not enough to speak at any language at all but if you were a good pupil you could get a basic idea about grammar for to improve your skills if you wanted to do that in future.

There were also so called special language secondary schools where foreigner languages were studied since 2d grade and there were 6 foreigner language lessons per week. I don't know about other cities but in Moscow each district had several schools of such kind. To sign your child in those schools was not such easy business because of huge "competition" of parents It was easy only if that school was next to your apartment.

 Each University included courses of foreigner languages as well according to its specialization For example I had a course of translation technical texts as I studied in not linguistic but in technical University. - so I'm better in translation of such articles than in speaking in English


I don't know why you ask such question - what for soviets did need to study foreigner language as if soviets had no need in study others cultures at all and had no interest in that. - rather offended assumption I'd say

As for quality of that studying then I don't think there should be any "shame" for that system It's just impossible to learn foreigner language good enough if you have no real practice. But like a  "base" soviet school system was not such bad to speak about any "shame".

[Turboguy]

Rose, you have an amazing ability to really post some great answers that get right to the heart of the matter.

I agree.  I think the factors that are the most importantt are the expectations of the two people and the amount of patience and understanding they both possess.  I think if you have two people who really want to be together and they both understand it will be difficult at times and very frustating and that it will take a lot of work on the part of both, it won't be an obsticale. 

Elen, I enjoyed your post too.  It gave some interesting insights into the Russian education system and life in Russia.  (my comment about the education system was not in a negative way.  I think your systems there are quite good. 

[Jet]

Helen and Rose back up my original point well. This is not much different than here in the states (and I assume in the UK). I took 2 yrs of French in school(5 classes/wk). I did well in the classes. I can currently recall about 4 words of French and would never have been so silly as to assume I could converse with a native speaker on any meaningful level. We should not expect more from Russians.

My wife WANTED to learn English for reasons of opportunity in her town, not to snag an American husband. She worked herself through a 3 year German correspondence course which was quite effective in terms of reading/writing but did nothing to promote speaking/listening - these are two distinctly seperate operations. With the written word she was nearly fluent, she did not always arrange sentences in the same manner a native speaker would, but she was COMPLETELY understandable, (with very few spelling or grammatical errors,) to anyone who could read English.

I will absolutely agree that communication is the single most important element in a relationship and that the woman needs to be motivated to learn the language of the country where she plans to reside, but to say that if she doesn't know english well at the outset, that she is not serious about her future is BS.

[jb]

As I read some of these replies I'm reminded of the other side of the coin.  How my own abilities with Russian sometimes gets off the wall.

The other day we were sitting on the patio and a little bird flew in, a sparrow, I think it was, anyway, my wife told me the name of the bird in Russian, "vorobolchic" is my best transliteration.  As I tried out a new word for my Russian vocabulary it came out "vorobullsh!t", my wife almost fell out of her chair laughing so hard.  Bear in mind, we've been married for 5 years and I hear and speak Russian everyday so my pronouncation is not usually that bad, but this time I really butchered the word up badly.

Even a long term speaker sometimes doesn't hear very well.  Some regional accents are hard for the learner to comprehend, once on a trip to Florida we stopped for gas in some tiny place in Alabama or Georgia, the service station attendant was absolutely speaking something from Mars, I could barely understand him myself, as we left she asked me, "What language was he speaking?".  "Was that English???"  All I could do was shake my head.  Maybe the guy had a speech impediment...

The easiest English speakers to understand for a new learner is the almost accent-free English we hear on the nightly news.  If you can mimic the Dan Rather or Ted Koppel manner of speech you will be a lot easier to understand if you are dealing with someone who is just beginning to interact with native English speakers.  My wife says New Yorkers and folks from New Jersery are hard to follow because they speak so fast, Californians use too much slang, and she goes to sleep listening to Southerners.

YMMV

[andrewfi]

I don't think that I, at least, have said that fluency of English is the only sign of motivation. I also know that the level of English that can be expected of a woman who learned for a few years at school would not be high. But there is a whole heap of difference between 'some' and 'none'. If a woman managed to get through school and several years of English tuition and retain nothing, then what I wrote is correct. Also, if a woman, on joining an anglophone agency, is doing nothing to improve her skills, then she is as I already wrote.

Imagine, if you will, a person who has managed to get through the US educational system and yet could not do mental arithmetic, or could not calculate how much of a sale price sales tax was. What would you think of such a person? Lazy or stupid? So why is it that you accpet lower standards in learning of languages? is it because you guys are weak in this area also and do not wish to appear hypocritical?

It is possible to put all kinds of spin on the issue, but nobody has yet stood up and answered my question, posed twice now. I take it that the resounding silence is an affirmation of my point.

[Turboguy]

Imagine, if you will, a person who has managed to get through the US educational system and yet could not do mental arithmetic, or could not calculate how much of a sale price sales tax was. What would you think of such a person? Lazy or stupid? So why is it that you accpet lower standards in learning of languages? is it because you guys are weak in this area also and do not wish to appear hypocritical?

Is that your question that you have asked twice and no one has answered?   No, I would not think they were lazy or stupid.  I would think they were not good in math.

Everyone has their things they are good at and things they are bad at.  My former wife was an A/B student in school but take her to the Mall she had been in 1000 times and she could not find her way from Pennys to Sears.  Was she lazy? well not too.  Was she stupid?   Well she married me, some might say that.   She just didn't have a good sense of directions. 

When I was in school I did great at math and science,  fair at English and terrible at French.  If all you looked at was how I did in French class Andrewfin would definately look at me as lazy and stupid.

Personally I prefer to look for the good in people and not think in terms of people being lazy or stupid.

 

[swindoom]

Imagine, if you will, a person who has managed to get through the US educational system and yet could not do mental arithmetic, or could not calculate how much of a sale price sales tax was. What would you think of such a person? Lazy or stupid? So why is it that you accpet lower standards in learning of languages? is it because you guys are weak in this area also and do not wish to appear hypocritical?

 

Your comparison is totally flawed as everyone will regularily use maths after leaving the education system but may never have to use the second language they have been taught and hence their ability/confidence will dimish over time.

Your question has been answered, we accept it because it is not a deciding factor in determining if we are going to go to the trouble of getting to know someones personality/character, the most important factor in deciding on the future prospects of success. This is because we understand that language is only a minor problem that will be overcome with time and effort, like most things in life.

[jb]

if we are going to go to the trouble of getting to know someones personality/character, the most important factor in deciding on the future prospects of success.

When I recommended better English skills, my point is just this; that you cannot get to know someone's personality/character without better communications capabilities.  There seems to be a contradiction here that many do not grasp.  On the one hand, you are willing to forgo being able to freely communicate, on the other hand you want to get to know someone's personality and character.  How do you do that?  Look at how so many men tell of how they got burned by playing at this.  Bruno and Maxx are two that immediately jump to mind.

I maintain that you can't get too far with body language, grunts, nods, pointing, and grinning at each other like love struck fools.  Even a bi-directional dictionary will only allow very rudimentary communication.   There absolutely has to be vocabulary between you.  Without it you are flirting with a pig-in-a-poke, it may be a very pretty pig, but you still know nothing of what you are buying at that point.

[rose]

jb, you are right, it is easier to discover a person if you can speak the same language with her. Communication is very imporrant thing in building relations.
But, the challenge of learning English in the US, for example, is also a great way to discover the character of the partner. Two people can observe each other, their interaction, their ability to be patient, and other qualities, what are very important.

[jb]

Rose,

I would agree with everything you've said,,, except:

But, the challenge of learning English in the US, for example, is also a great way to discover the character of the partner.

At the point where the woman is here learning English in the US, she is already committed to get married by virture of the K-1 visa rules.  Like the man said, this is a fiancee visa, not a girlfriend visa.  This is known as putting the cart in front of the horse.  That is a misuse of the K-1 visa process, and strictly against the rules.

But who the hell pays attention to the rules anyway.....

[Bruno]

if we are going to go to the trouble of getting to know someones personality/character, the most important factor in deciding on the future prospects of success.

When I recommended better English skills, my point is just this; that you cannot get to know someone's personality/character without better communications capabilities.  There seems to be a contradiction here that many do not grasp.  On the one hand, you are willing to forgo being able to freely communicate, on the other hand you want to get to know someone's personality and character.  How do you do that?  Look at how so many men tell of how they got burned by playing at this.  Bruno and Maxx are two that immediately jump to mind.[/quote]
I think that i am not the right example...

My ex-wife and myself have a common language... not English but French... language that she have learn to school... After one year in Belgium, she was able to speak and understand Ducth, the language of the regio i life... the main problem in Dutch was for follow a discussion... since in her mind, she was thinking russian, the discussion was slow...

The fact that she was not so bad in French and Dutch have allow her to build better lie... in some way, you need master language for build good credible lie...

One of the main problem about our communication was not the language but the lenght of communication before the marriage... letter via post mail ( two week go and same for return )... behavour during the 3 meeting was like during holliday... we have not really use time for build a relation before the marriage... sexually actif before the marriage but with brain dead :huh:...

Language is never a problem for me, i adapt very fast... but these marriage was the first after my "pig" life in Navy... these mistake have bring me a lot of maturity and make me very difficult in my actual choice...

With the actual girlfriend, language is not a problem too... she speak Ukrainian, Russian, German and English very good... she speak a middle Dutch... she wish learn French... and it is more of one year that i know her... she have never plan to quit the Ukraine or marry a foreign men... How we have know each other : simple, via forum She is member here and on antidate... not very active but she have "monitor" me via my post :cool:

In any case, a women will learn very fast the base of language when she is in the host country... i see it every day with my work... where i use people who ask asylum for help in garden... after a few month, they know some base... after one year, they can speak slowly...

[jb]

Bruno,

You make excuses for your's and her actions now, but in earlier posts you indicated you did not know this woman's intentions very well before you married her.  How is this possible if you were able to communicate so well?  Unless she was the consumate actress and you were the consumate fool, we can only surmise you didn't get to know her very well before you married her.

Which is it?

[Bruno]

Bruno,

You make excuses for your's and her actions now, but in earlier posts you indicated you did not know this woman's intentions very well before you married her.  How is this possible if you were able to communicate so well?  Unless she was the consumate actress and you were the consumate fool, we can only surmise you didn't get to know her very well before you married her.

Which is it?

I was a fool and she was a good actress... same her own parents was surprised She have loose almost all her russian friend in Belgium, they was shocked...

The marriage periode itself was not so bad... She was not the perfect women but who is perfect... the end was a surprise... i have never know about GCG before her... three day before the end, it was a usual family christmas... the last night, we have make love like all couple... the day after, the door was closed... she have receive her green belgium card ( really green in Belgium )...

I have know more after because she have explain herself her plan...

But now, she regret our periode together... several time, she have contact me for try again together... last time was in January... unfortunaly for her, i cannot forgive the divorce... it was too much...

EDIT : In some way, several here are fool like i was before... they are ready to marry a woman they don't really know, they guided by lust but not the real love... like i have say before, build a relation with a local women ask several month... it is not different with a russian woman... one week wonder ( or one month ) are potential victim for GCG... or other beast... take your time for make the right choice... i have loose around 6 year of my life and i don't wish the same for other people. Moey for meeting is nothing, you can make more money... but time cannot be taken back... it is better use several month for your quest that loose 5 or 10 year of your life due to the wrong choice...

[Jay Patches]

Well I gotta say I am totally insulted & a bit pissed at the attitude I'm reading here!!! 

My post was not meant to be taken that seriously.  I think the majority of men going over, have never heard of an RW discussion website, or would even be interested in participating.  I think most go over, find the first RW who will let him grab her @ss, fills out the visa form in the hotel room and goes back home to wait.

It is the idea that most really get to know each other that I found funny.  I think the language is really irrelevant to the majority of the people searching.

Yet, to answer the question..... I would have to say it depends.  There are scammers who speak no english, relying on computer translations, and there are scammers who speak excellent english.  No rule will keep you 100% safe.

Bottom line my friends is that the only thing that can help you in this process is to ensure that your head is somewhere other than your @ss.  There is no substitute for good judgement. 

If your plan is to last 731 days, then nevermind

JP

[jb]

Bruno,

Thank you for your honesty.

I think your story should be taken to heart by all newbies entering into this pursuit.

All that glitters is not gold, all that shines is not silver.  A man should know his woman before he marries, otherwise he buys a pig-in-a-poke and risks all the troubles you have suffered.

I could not have said it better than you did.

[ronin308]

Andrew, I think to make a generalization like you have with your questions leaves out at least 2 very important factors.

1.  The caliber of the person trying to help her learn the language, it requires a much larger effort to try and learn on your own compared to having someone guide you. 

2. The innate ability possed by the person to learn a language.  Some people regardless of how bright they are simply cannot make the leap to learn a new language as quickly as those who seem to "pick it up".

I think in Photo's case he's dealing with a bit of both and maybe more.  The only way for a guy to know this is to closely monitor her learning progress.  In the case of my fiance we could have rather halting conversations punctuated with her looking things up in the dictionary after a month.  At 2 months very few words threw her and those that did she would ask for an explanation rather than look it up.  I felt fairly confident of the progress being made.

 

[r0gera]

Gosh, Maybe I have seen the light now.  I guess I am going to have to write N and tell her to hit the road because she is so stupid and lazy.  Silly me...  I should have realized that after working her first job as a teacher for 35 hours each week, and her second job in an office for 40 hours each week, and raising her 2 sons on her own... she should have taken the time to learn some english. 

All she would have needed to do was maybe get one more job... since she gets almost a hundred dollars a month from each of the jobs.. so she could maybe buy some course books or take some courses in english... heck... after a year with that third job she might even be able to buy her own computer and then pay the $1 an hour for internet access and do an online course.  Well, really if you shop around in her town you can find internet access for as low as $0.85 per hour if you prepay for 33 hours of access each month.

I am sure glad you helped me see how lazy and stupid she is....  She should have an easy time remembering what english she had in high school 25 years ago and been plenty proficient by now.  Especially since she was listed with an agency that caters to english speaking men.

I guess I will just have to tell her that after she gets that 3rd job, buys that computer and studies for a year or two that she will have proven that she isn't lazy and stupid.  Then maybe I would talk to her again.

You sure made a compelling argument that these women who can not speak or read english are stupid and lazy... I would have never realized just how lazy she was.

[rose]

[size="4"]r0gera, Bravo!!! [/size]

[r0gera]

r0gera, Bravo!!!

 

She will probably be pretty relieved that she is being dumped now... she won't have to walk 45 minutes each direction 3 times a week or so to get to the agency any more.... well at least for a few years till she learns english anyway.  

I guess that was another sign I missed..... she has only been walking to the agency and back home 3 times a week or so...   If she wasn't so lazy she would have been walking there every day... and if she wasn't so stupid she would have been shoveling snow for people along the way so she could make some extra money to pay for those english classes....

Things are so much clearer for me now that I know the reason she can not converse in english without a translator.

[catzenmouse]

[size="4"]r0gera, Bravo!!! [/size]

I wholeheartedly second that!

Ken