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I have a very good friend who has a very large antique mall (34,000 square feet). For many years, he has imported antiques from the Amsterdam. But currency exchange rates with the euro has made that less attractive.
Has anyone imported a container of "antiques" from any of the FSU countries. These could be formal or provincial pieces of furniture, architectural fixtures, anything ...
Would welcome comments and direction.
Thank you
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Bad idea. Russia's economy has improved dramatically and the flow of Russian antiques is into the country, not out. Even before this, I saw few stores with period pieces. Further, the Russian currency has also appreciated vs the dollar.
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I don't think actual treasures (real formal, old, and rare pieces of art, decorative art, artifacts) can be found at a deal - that is for sure.
I am involved in the Luxury goods industry and am well aware that Moscow, St. Petersburg, and Parts of the Middle East are the only Boom towns now (all oil related).
My thinking here is for Provencial pieces (Pieces that are old, and have charm, but no intricate detail, bronze, fancy stuff) and architectural salvage - gates; elaborate hand carved elements in architecture. Interestingly, in Boom towns - especially boom towns with age, "out with the old and in with the new" is the spirit of the times. Clearly the US dollar would buy more in Romania, or Ukraine, then Stockholm, or Amsterdam?!?!!??!?!?
I am wondering if there are antique / architectural salvage aggregators (wholesalers), and perhaps more importantly, if there are "unique difficulties" exporting containers of used furniture, old art, architectural salvage.
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I don't think actual treasures (real formal, old, and rare pieces of art, decorative art, artifacts) can be found at a deal - that is for sure.
I am involved in the Luxury goods industry and am well aware that Moscow, St. Petersburg, and Parts of the Middle East are the only Boom towns now (all oil related).
My thinking here is for Provencial pieces (Pieces that are old, and have charm, but no intricate detail, bronze, fancy stuff) and architectural salvage - gates; elaborate hand carved elements in architecture. Interestingly, in Boom towns - especially boom towns with age, "out with the old and in with the new" is the spirit of the times. Clearly the US dollar would buy more in Romania, or Ukraine, then Stockholm, or Amsterdam?!?!!??!?!?
I am wondering if there are antique / architectural salvage aggregators (wholesalers), and perhaps more importantly, if there are "unique difficulties" exporting containers of used furniture, old art, architectural salvage.
I think the paperwork involved for you will be astronomical. There is a general ban on genuine antiques leaving the country. i.e. items over 100 years old. And for items less than that I expect the onus will be on you to prove they are NOT 100 years old. Expect lots of paperwork and gift giving.
This is not as trifling as it seems. I recall several stories of people being stopped at the airport for attempting to take "cutural artifacts" out of the country.
A standard tourist scam is to sell an antique for a cheap price in a tourist stall and then to get the person who bought it stopped at the border, item confiscated and then returned to to the seller for resale I think there is a ban on medals too.
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I have a very good friend who has a very large antique mall (34,000 square feet). For many years, he has imported antiques from the Amsterdam. But currency exchange rates with the euro has made that less attractive.
Has anyone imported a container of "antiques" from any of the FSU countries. These could be formal or provincial pieces of furniture, architectural fixtures, anything ...
Would welcome comments and direction.
Thank you
Wow, what an interesting friend you have... 8) would you introduce me to him? ;D Kidding.
By Russian law, an antique is every piece that is 50 or more years old.
Yes there is a formal procedure for exporting old things out of Russia. I could write it here but some research is needed.
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I would love to introduce him to you Lilly! You are very worthy.
But he is happily married and too old for you anyway:)
Thank you very much for your comment. Just as beauty is in the eye of the beholder ... often one persons "garbage" is another persons treasure.
Do you think the same difficult laws exist in other Eastern European counties? Ukraine; Estonia; Bulgaria; etc...
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Tim,
It is just not the onerous regulations, there is nothing there.
I know antiques, and have actually made some money off of buying and selling them (not much, but some). One speciality of mine are rugs from the Caucasus. Russians sometimes hang village pieces on their walls. I went to rug places and found nothing of artistic interest, just stuff 50 years old with chemical dyes and bad drawings. And the prices were 2-3 times what I would pay in the US, and that was 4 years ago.
There was never a large middle class in the history of Russia, which would be a source for what you seek.
There was of course an upper class. Those pieces are in museums or being returned to Russia at astronomical prices. A chair sold at Sotheby's for $2,280,000. A PAIR OF PORCELAIN VASES (30") from 1825-55 sold for over a $1,000,000 last year at Sotheby's. A dinner plate of the same era (9") can bring $150,000 or more.
It is happening in China. Yesterday, a small 3ft. 9in. by 3ft. 8in Ming rug sold on at Sotheby's for $163,000. Look around, maybe you have one of these in grandma's trunk.
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As always ... Gator is a wealth of information. (I still have not developed a position on climate change ...whats yours?)
Nice chair! I am hard on crystal and fine dinner ware (crash) - keep that stuff away from me!
OK. I give up.
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Hey, let's start our own internal, virtual Christie's/Sotheby's, here's my Grandmother's possible contribution:
- Tryptich of 3 silver-framed icons in foldable, travel brass box (8" when fully open), featuring 8 Saints (left panel, legible at top: St. Nicholas, St. Vasili, St. John, St. Alexander), Madonna with Child (central panel, inscription unclear, looks like MPOYICXC, thought it could be Glagolitic but isn't, supposedly Our Lady of Kazan), Resuscitation of Lazar (right panel). Period: late XVIIth-early XVIIIth century (estimate).
Coffee spoon is for size only ;).
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There was never a large middle class in the history of Russia, which would be a source for what you seek. There was of course an upper class.
Exactly, this is a reason why the today Russia may be not the best place to look for antiques. The country survived lots of disasters, many people went through extreme hardship, so their family treasures were lost or perished during last 70 years. The number of antique pieces decrease with time. Exile to Siberia did hardly brought many treasures to Siberian cities. At least I have not seen many in the shops when I was living in Siberia.
I did notice many beautiful and famous Russian history names in the phonebook in Siberia, and especially on the name plates in local cemeteries :(
The rare private antique collectors in the FSU and Russia were rather silent and even well-hidden. This passion was not something that one would made in any way public. People had fear for their precious belongings. Even now when I read interviews with some local pros or auction people, I read this point of view.
I got my passion for antiques from my father, who had a weak spot for old things. He had a few precious pieces, without an own history however, but I cannot reproduce a feeling of holding little antiques in my hands. We don't own many of them, but early in my life I began to understand that it is much more worth to accumulate information and knowledge on antiques rather to own a collection. At least it is safe ... :)
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A little off topic...
Lily, I want to ask you something somewhat related to antiques in a way... I collect vintage fountain pens. I'm unsure what the translation would be in Russian, I seem to remember "авторучка" but that's probably not even close (no laughing allowed if I just said something crazy ;) ) Anyway, these are the pens which must be filled with ink from a bottle. I'm especially interested in acquiring one or two made in Russia from the Great War period (probably just prior considering pen manufacture would not have been a priority during)...
Do you know of a shop in Moscow where I could find such pens? Are they considered "historical treasures" which would not be allowed to exit the country?
Thanks,
Dave
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Dave,
Always nice to hear on someone's antique passion 8)
I guess the term "авторучка" would be right, but I would specify it as "перьевая авторучка".
Unfortunately I have not heard of any particular shops in Moscow where to get them. It appears to me that it would be a long hunt for such rarities..I would try just the usual antique shops, including those on the Old Arbat in Moscow, because my guesses would be that such pen should not be extremely overpriced. You know, Old Arbat is abundant on antique shops but they boost prices incredibly, being the most popular street among foreign tourists. :)
If I'd be your personal antique hunt outfitter ;D, I would recommend looking at second hand outlets, classifields, probably online auctions ..Looking in Sankt Pete may be more effective than looking in Moscow.
On historical treasures - as I said, anything 50 yo or older may be considered as such. For more details I have to look up legal database that is in my office.
By the way, would you mind showing pictures of your collection? I am curious :)
I imagine it may look great when arranged in a separate room dressed like an old time bureau, supplemented with cabinet desk, various little ols paper holders, etc etc etc :D 8)
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Even a fairly new (within 5 years) painting is a lot of paperwork to get out. Forget about anything old. Good artists exist in Russia today - and you can get their work out but it is much work.
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Do you know of a shop in Moscow where I could find such pens? Are they considered "historical treasures" which would not be allowed to exit the country?
Here those pens can often be found in open-air flea markets like Fiera di Sinigallia in Milan and Porta Portese in Rome. Any equivalent of London's Portobello in Moscow ?
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Lilly,
You are special because I think it is rare to find a RW interested in antiques. Almost all perceive them as "used stuff", and do not comprehend any artistic merit, historical significance, or the warmth.
You wrote,
early in my life I began to understand that it is much more worth to accumulate information and knowledge on antiques rather to own a collection.
That is why we have museums. There we can see the finest examples of what interests us without the expense of buying (and worse, overpaying or buying a fake). Just can not touch.
The most fulfilling attitude is to collect and buy antiques that you really enjoy, will cherish, and want to keep forever - as opposed to buying with the idea of making money.
Collecting esoteric categories, such as Daveman's fountain pens, can be joyful without killing one's budget. Yet, even in such categories there are some examples that command mind boggling prices.
A real thrill is to actually discover an important and fine example in a flea market, etc. One has to turn over a lot of rocks to find these examples, but they are out there. And the "hunt" is part of the joy, provided you are not frustrated by searching only for the Holy Grail.
Sandro,
Glorious piece. I know nothing about religious art; however, your piece seems comparable to numerous examples I saw in museums when touring Italy.
Daveman,
In my walking about Moscow, I have sometimes come across little flea markets. Forgot where, but the stalls were open air if not a mere blanket on a sidewalk. Lots of stuff, but nothing I collected.
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In my walking about Moscow, I have sometimes come across little flea markets. Forgot where, but the stalls were open air if not a mere blanket on a sidewalk. Lots of stuff, but nothing I collected.
In China, I came upon a family with two blankets, covered with lots of "neat" things. I bought some at a very inexpensive price. The real beauty was a beautiful sword. For only 20 dollars.
After pondering how to get it home, I went back to buy it, only to discover the police taking the sword and swishing the family away. My terp told me it was not legal to sell weapons in China. Don't know if that was true or not, but I was definitely better off not trying to get that sword out of the country!
Tim-- at the airport on that trip I met an American man who was in China buying antiques for his shop. He told me he travels to China twice a year to make purchases. I have no idea how he handled it with the government.
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Sandro, Glorious piece. I know nothing about religious art; however, your piece seems comparable to numerous examples I saw in museums when touring Italy.
A more traditional piece, reportedly a wedding gift to my great grandmother ;).
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That is why we have museums. There we can see the finest examples of what interests us without the expense of buying (and worse, overpaying or buying a fake). Just can not touch.
It is a delight to walk in a museum hall with your loved one, draw his attention on things that you have read about when you were a kid, and whisper to him some long forgotten stories .. ;)
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It is a delight to walk in a museum hall with your loved one, draw his attention on things that you have read about when you were a kid, and whisper to him some long forgotten stories ..
What would you whisper in this museum (Volterra) and hall (Torture), looking at this particular exhibit?
"Darling, we REALLY must get new mattresses" ;D?
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:D
Well, I meant the Russian museums that I visited as a kid, and made lots of reading in my school years.
Looking at this pic I could probably say "what a good quality of wood did they have..' :)
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Well, I looked up the rules for transportation of antiques from Russia to abroad...In short, I would not advise buying antiques here.
I copy and paste the information in English from the website http://rosohrancult.ru
Federal Supervisory Service for Mass Communication and Cultural Heritage Protection Legislation Enforcement
(Rosohrankultura)
The information on rules of export of cultural values from territory of the Russian Federation
According to the current legislation of the Russian Federation in sphere of the state control for export and import of cultural valuables, the export of cultural valuables is carried out on the basis of the permissive document which is made out by Federal Supervisory Service for Mass Communication and Cultural Heritage Protection Legislation Enforcement (Rosohrankultura).
For obtaining such a permit it is necessary for the owner or authorized representative of a cultural value to apply to Rosohrankultura (its territorial departments) and to submit the corresponding application with the following enclosed documents:
a) the list with the description of cultural values at quantity of items more than two;
b) 3 color photos of each cultural value the size of which should be no less than 8x12 cm (At export of the archival documents, printed editions, philately, numismatics, bonistics and faleristics items the representation of photos is not required);
c) The certified copies of documents confirming the rights of ownership of cultural values declared to export;
d) The documents confirming cost of cultural values;
e) Copies of the identification document or Copies of the documents confirming the fact of registration of the Organization in order, established by legislation of the Russian Federation
The items declared to export are subject to obligatory state expert appraisal made on a paid basis in accordance with the order established by the Government of the Russian Federation “on export and import of cultural values” of 27.04.2001.
Rosohrankultura makes a decision on reference of the declared subjects to cultural values, being guided by the List of the cultural values falling under action the law, the approved order of the ministry
In case of the decision on impossibility of export from territory of the Russian Federation of the declared cultural values, this decision is brought to applicant’s notice in written form in ten-day term.
The following objects can be recognized as cultural values by results of examination:
Objects of art, devotional articles, printed editions, manuscripts, archives, subjects of philately, philumeny, deltiology, numismatics, bonistics, articles of uniform, artistic and historical weapon, technical subjects, equipment, mechanical facilities, ancient awards and medals (except for the State awards), subjects of paleontology and the mineralogy, objects of science interest, and also rare and unique musical instruments.
Export of cultural valuables from territory of the Russian Federation is carried out on the basis of the export certificate for cultural objects of the territory of the Russian Federation in the form approved by the governmental regulation, 27 April 2001, No.322.
The objects created less than 50 years ago, as well as the household stuff irrespective of time of their creation, can be recognized as the objects of cultural interest. For export of these objects the information of standard pattern is made out.
(The order of the Ministry of Culture of the Russian Federation, 07 August 2001, No.844).
For export of the printed goods, stamps, subjects of children's creative work, techniques, souvenirs, coins, the securities, created less than 50 years ago, registration of the allowing documentation it is not required.
The following cultural objects are not a subject to export from the territory of the Russian Federation:
movable objects of historical, artistic, scientific or other cultural value that are claimed as particularly valuable objects of cultural heritage of the nations of the Russian Federation by the law currently in force, regardless of the time of their creation;
movable objects regardless of the time of their creation time, that are protected by the State and entered in security lists and registers in accordance with the legislation system of the Russian Federation;
cultural valuables permanently stored at the State and municipal museums, archives, libraries, other state depositories of cultural values of the Russian Federation. In accordance to the decision of the authorized State bodies the given right can be applied to other museums, archives, libraries;
cultural valuables created more 100 years ago.
(The article 9 of the law of the Russian Federation "on export and import of cultural values", 14 April 1993, No. 4804-1)
For the right of export of cultural values the State Duty is raised:
The tax code of the Russian Federation in edition of the federal law, 02 November, 2004, No.127-ФЗ (the first paragraph of article 333.3, 333.34, 333.35)
cultural values created more 50 years ago - 10 percent from their cost;
cultural values created less 50 years ago - 5 percent from their cost;
paleontology collectibles - 10 percent from their cost;
mineralogy collectibles - 5 percent from their cost.
The calculation of a State Duty for the right to export cultural values (temporary export) is provided by the real market price of the cultural value, which is stated by the person who is applying for its export. In case when the Body of the Government that gives the license to export the cultural values estimates a different value of the commodity, the higher value is taken as a basis of the calculation.
The state duty is calculated by taking into account the total cost of all cultural objects that are exported simultaneously by the same person.
From payment of the state duty are released:
physical persons – the authors of cultural values;
officials of consular office or diplomatic representatives, and also the members of their families living together with them who are not the citizens of a host country;
(The article 34 of the Vienna Convention on Diplomatic Relations, 18 April, 1963)
(The article 49 of the Vienna Convention on Diplomatic Relations, 24 April, 1963)
The state duty is not paid for:
the export of the cultural values which have been obtained on demand from another's illegal possession and returned to the proprietor.
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The Rosokhrankultura also has an interesting resume of their activities for 2006.
That year, they arranged 8 383 certificates for export or temporary export of 108 085 pieces of cultural valables from Russia.
50 pieces of cultural valuables were prohibited to export. (!)
The office has issued 11 350 certificates for 252 352 exported pieces of culture.
The office has made 17 267 451 Rubles in fees for documentation and expertise.
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Here those pens can often be found in open-air flea markets like Fiera di Sinigallia in Milan and Porta Portese in Rome. Any equivalent of London's Portobello in Moscow ?
One open flea market in Moscow can be found at railway station Mark. The merchandises are exposed right near the railways, as you can see. Sellers are said to be active in petitioning for getting a more safe place to sell their things, 4000 signatures have been gathered under the petition. On the other hand, the prefect office is said to act according to legal rules. Reportedly, no person has initially applied for organization of this market. It looks like no one wanted to declare responsibility for its functioning.
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On the note of exporting antiques from Russia I remember that when I took my fiancee to the Netherlands, the customs wanted her to open the suitcase. They suspected that the big square thing they saw on the x-ray could be an icon.
Actually it was a cooking book. :D
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By the way, would you mind showing pictures of your collection? I am curious :)
I imagine it may look great when arranged in a separate room dressed like an old time bureau, supplemented with cabinet desk, various little ols paper holders, etc etc etc :D 8)
Thanks for the info Lily, and I'd be happy to share some photos with you. Give me a day or two to shoot a few and you can see the historical trends of American Pen Manufacturing from about 1910 through the 1960's. ;) For me it's an interesting and fun hobby. I like anything with history and with pens, it's easy to imagine questions like - whose hands have touched them? what was written? Secret wartime information? Mob instructions during alcohol prohibition? Love letters from wives to soldiers? If these pens could only talk, what stories they could tell... plus, all of mine have been restored to superb writing condition so you can fill them with ink and share a similar moment with strangers from a bygone era.
Sandro, I'll have to hit one of those Italian markets.. I adore your native Aurora pens, especially the 88's from the 50's and I still crave one of the new "Nobile" special edition safety models. One of the few modern pens I'm after. I also have a modern 88 which is a smooth writing instrument. I own several Montblancs, Pelikans, Watermans, etc, but I have to say, the best performing pens from the modern European lots are without question those of Italian origin, and the Aurora's are about the best of the best IMO.
Gator, you mean you saw NOTHING there you collect? Not even one of those little wooden women, inside the other wooden woman, inside the other wooden woman.. heh... as a lifetime guitarist, I wanted to pick up a traditional Balalaika but was quickly informed that removing it from the country would be nearly impossible (which makes me wonder about the pens).
Dave
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Daveman,
Gator, you mean you saw NOTHING there you collect? Not even one of those little wooden women, inside the other wooden woman,
For a brief period I felt as if I were collecting women, but not the wooden variety. :D I am much happier now with just one.
My antique collecting interests are narrow, and my interest has waned somewhat. In fact over the past 7 years I have sold much, much more than I acquired. Been too busy chasing RW and golf balls.
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Sandro, I'll have to hit one of those Italian markets.. I adore your native Aurora pens, especially the 88's from the 50's
Handwriting, that brings back some long-buried memories ;).
When I attended elementary school (1st-5th grade) half a century ago :(, many schools still had equipment dating back from the 1930s-1940s: uncomfortably-hard wooden desks with either fixed or fold-down seats, and equipped with 2 inkwells which would be replenished daily by a caretaker, making the rounds of classrooms with a large ink flask.
Graded subjects included "Disegno e bella scrittura" (drawing and calligraphy), for which fountain pens were strictly not allowed: we had to use a stylus/holder and fit in it whatever type of nib our teacher required.
Sounds like prehistory, and I had to look up "pennino" (nib) in the dictionary, so disused the term is ;D.
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When I attended the elementary school, we had a bit different schooldesks but we had to use exactly the fountain pens. That, on teachers' opinion, would foster our initial calligraphic style, as the fountain pen allow thicker and thinner lines.
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as a lifetime guitarist, I wanted to pick up a traditional Balalaika but was quickly informed that removing it from the country would be nearly impossible (which makes me wonder about the pens).
Dave
If you buy a balalaika that is of contemporary mass production in a souvenir shop, you should have no problems importing it from Russia, if you have a detailed receipt from the store. If the piece is rather unique or made earlier than 50 years ago, you are likely to have complications at the customs office.
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Lily, I see an abacus in your photo. Were you taught how to use it at school ? I dimly remember we did, but more as a curiosity. Another relic of the past, along with the slide rule :).
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sorry for the :::offtopic:::
Hey, I have one of those Sondro..
in fact it looks pretty much like that one !
Even more strange, I know how to use it ,
well , at least for the most part! (i'm a little rusty) LOL
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Not too off topic here, since we're discussing antiques ;D.
Even more strange, I know how to use it, well, at least for the most part! (i'm a little rusty) LOL
If you need a refresher: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slide_rule.
I could still do multiplications and divisions if necessary, though I'm rather foggy about square roots now (not an everyday's need, anyway). A slide rule sticking out of a breast pocket was a technician's proud statement of his exalted status ;).
Many years ago, I had developed a circular slide rule for the transposition of musical notes from one tonality/scale to another, and eagerly approached with the idea (and visions of untold amounts of It. £) an IBM customer of mine, a manufacturer of drawing tools. His reaction was exceedingly lukewarm, apparently the market for my brainchild was VERY limited :(.
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sorry for the :::offtopic:::
Hey, I have one of those Sondro..
in fact it looks pretty much like that one !
Even more strange, I know how to use it ,
well , at least for the most part! (i'm a little rusty) LOL
They should be pretty good for calculating trajectory, approximate landing speed and angle (head or @ss) etc.
(http://www.scooteringusa.com/triggergumm.jpg)
Obviously not used for this 315 ft jump attempt... ouch! - Interesting that the bike landed quite ok... friction between glove and grip not properly calculated..
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Ukraine has strict rules concerning taking things out of the country. Icons and books more than 50 years old, I believe, cannot be taken out. I have here perhaps 100 or more art pieces and crafts from about 15 Ukrainian Artists. I had to go through the difficult process of photographing, cataloging, etc. The duty was established for each piece, which I paid. Usually, a stamp is placed on the back of the drawing or painting. I have a part-time business that I am trying to get established selling art.
While in Ukraine, the woman I went to meet showed me something. This was when I was staying in her home. She showed me the most fancy document that I have ever seen, which she said was given to her by her Great Grandmother. As she unflolded it, I could see it was a fancy but very old parchment with many details. She explained that this was the orginal deed to a large parcel of land in Yalta which contains several palaces, Including the Lividia Palace, which we were going to see the next day. She said, it was the official deed when Nickolas II purchased the property. Of course, I could not read the Russsian, but she carefully explained each part of the document, which was very graphic sort of like an Indian pictograph, if you know what I mean. She also showed me some very old gold coins and gold jewelry that was passed down to her. I was an Art major in college and have equal to a PHD worth of grad school, and all the items looked to me to be just as she said. Now, if she could safely get these items out of Ukraine, I wonder what they would be worth?
When I rented an apartment in a city in Western Urkaine, there were oil paintings on the wall that I recconized from my Art History classes. These were orginals! The agency who rented me the apartment said they were left in Ukraine because of the very high taxes that would have to be paid to remove them.
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What a wonderful story do you tell us here. It is really nice to read that she allowed you to her family history and treasures. Are you in relationship with this woman now?
On the paintings: how do you know they are originals? I can hardly imagine anything like that hanging on the wall of a rented apartment.
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Lily, I see an abacus in your photo. Were you taught how to use it at school ? I dimly remember we did, but more as a curiosity. Another relic of the past, along with the slide rule :).
Yes we were taught how to calculate using an abacus on the 1st grade, as a 7 years old kids. The slide rule you showed was in the school program, too.
By the way, I noticed many times that the western people often find it funny to see an abacus in Russia. :)
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Lily,
I am involved with someone else now, and have not seen the woman I was telling about for 3-1/2 years.
Yes, I am sure the paintings were real and valuable. The apartment was locked up quite well. It was only rented, I believe, to Americans.
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As this track has been originally entitled "Antiques", can someone recommend a way to evaluate the price of the stamps collection?
Dates: from 1866 till 1924.
Countries: Pre-revolution Russia, Georgia and Azerbaijan after revolution \ before Soviet Union, Ukraine.
Includes some stamps printed by "temporary" governements of Civil war epoque (Denikin, Judenich, Kolchak, etc.)
High resolution scans can be e-mailed upon request.
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As this track has been originally entitled "Antiques", can someone recommend a way to evaluate the price of the stamps collection?
Dates: from 1866 till 1924.
Countries: Pre-revolution Russia, Georgia and Azerbaijan after revolution \ before Soviet Union, Ukraine.
Includes some stamps printed by "temporary" governements of Civil war epoque (Denikin, Judenich, Kolchak, etc.)
High resolution scans can be e-mailed upon request.
Olga,
I googled your question, here is what I got:
http://66.102.9.104/search?q=cache:NzBW3ZIUVL4J:old.appraiser.ru/discuss/messages/129/11295.html+%D0%B3%D0%B4%D0%B5+%D0%BC%D0%BE%D0%B6%D0%BD%D0%BE+%D0%BE%D1%86%D0%B5%D0%BD%D0%B8%D1%82%D1%8C+%D0%BA%D0%BE%D0%BB%D0%BB%D0%B5%D0%BA%D1%86%D0%B8%D1%8E+%D0%BC%D0%B0%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%BA&hl=ru&ct=clnk&cd=6&gl=ru
may be a forum would help:
http://filatelist.ru/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=1
Here is an interesting article on the value of stamps that may give some guidance:
http://216.239.59.104/search?q=cache:fIkIXQumh18J:www.finansmag.ru/32184+%D0%B3%D0%B4%D0%B5+%D0%BC%D0%BE%D0%B6%D0%BD%D0%BE+%D0%BE%D1%86%D0%B5%D0%BD%D0%B8%D1%82%D1%8C+%D0%BA%D0%BE%D0%BB%D0%BB%D0%B5%D0%BA%D1%86%D0%B8%D1%8E+%D0%BC%D0%B0%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%BA&hl=ru&ct=clnk&cd=23&gl=ru
Eventually, the auction "Gelos" may provide evaluation services.
Good luck!
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My cousin and her husband are Ukrainian antique dialers living and working abroad.
The problem with FSU antiques is that they are in most cases fake. There are factories that make “antiques” there.
So be careful.
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:ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL:
Sorry for the OFF TOPIC but post 22 by Lily is possibly one of the funniest things I've seen here in a while!
Have a look at the writing on this ladies t-shirt:
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Hey, Kuna, I can imagine my wife wearing a shirt with similar writng at that age, can't you? :devilish:
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Hey, Kuna, I can imagine my wife wearing a shirt with similar writng at that age, can't you? :devilish:
hahahaha.... I dunno Scott - I don't know your wife that well! ;D
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Tim,
It is just not the onerous regulations, there is nothing there.
Where? In Russia? Nothing? Then I must be stark staring mad - and have been like this from birth. I've been "into" antiques almost from birth - that is when I began to see what's around :) Mind, - in St.Petersburg, which has gone in a short span of 30 years through 3 wars and 2 revolutions, through the siege - and even nore destructive through people bying varnished "stylish" pieces and sets from Eastern Europe and Finland, and moving to new housing - government and co-op, thowing out in the garbage museum pieces sometimes. I'm not kidding, my Mom and I used to visit houses whence all the people were relocated (the buildings themselves were for gut-rehab) and on the ubbish heaps found some nice pieces and three real treasures... I'm tired now, but later I'll try to find similar pieces on the internet to show.
What is amazing - how much in people's homes survived all the tribulations. I've seen whole big apartments without a single piece of anything younger than late Empire (Alexander I and beginning of Nickolas I epochs - this is how Russian antiques are classified, by the reigns).
There are reasons for abundance of these treasures. First of all St.Petersburg was an enormously rich Imperial capital second to none. And in spite of your assertion about the lack of middle class this is certainly not true for the XIX - early XX cc. Government officials, merchants, bankers, army and navy staff, doctors, lawyers, artisans, etc. not to forget aristocracy who had palaces and mansions in addition to their - sometimes numerous - country places, or rented apartments in the capital for the season. Only imperial family, all these princes had dozens of palaces.
Most of the stuff, moreover, was home-made - until the emancipation in 1864 by the serves on the estates. There were also notable cabinetmaker factories like Gambbs' who made beautiful "victorian" walnut and mahogany furniture. There was an Imperial Porcelain Factory and Kusnetsov, and Popov, etc. Many of the richer people also imported French, Italian, Dutch, etc. stuff.
After the Revolution workers and other memebers of "proletariat' and new bureaucracy were given rooms in emigre's apartments - with all the furnishings. Stuff from the Winter Palace - the State Hermitage Museum now - was sold to the public and pretty cheaply too. Me step-grandmother bought a set of dinner plates with Tsar's monogram.
The domestic production of consumer goods didn't pick up to any extent until the 50s at least, - so people simply held on to what they had... good sturdy stuff, solid wood, beautifully made, why not? :)
Rugs... I do not know the market now, but eberyone in my recollection had 2-3 pieces of handmade TUrkoman and Persian rugs of beautiful colors and traditional design - from Middle Asia and Caucasus. They were not easy to buy (and what was?) and never cheap - middle size, say, 2x3 m cost 150-170 roubles, more than an engineer's monthly salary. In the 70s however there started an influx of Belgian and German machine-made stuff, which was very much in vogue, and domestic old-fashioned carpets became cheaper.
THe only thing - besides leaving my beautiful StPetersburg - which gives me a pang is what I had to leave there. And Mama cried when she had to sell and give away all the things with which we lived, and which in some cases were in the family for generations.
A PAIR OF PORCELAIN VASES (30") from 1825-55 sold for over a $1,000,000 last year at Sotheby's. A dinner plate of the same era (9") can bring $150,000 or more.
These must have been something extraordinary - with historical significance or whatever. Or some crazy millionaire lacked just such vases or plate in his collection. Ir's very hard for me to think that all my family, friends and acquaintances had/have things of such value in everyday use :)
But yes, with the arrival of "new Russians" with money to burn (and the quicker the better - lest something happens) the prices for antiques in Russia went up and continue to grow. Though from what I've seen on the web, they are still much behind the Western ones. Mostly because domestic market is somewhat restricted, and to take such stuff out of the country is all but impossible.
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Wow Wienerin,
You are the person who can tell a lot about the topic.
With his slight exaggeration, Gator probably meant that antiques tend to became harder to find, as their quantity obviously does not grow with ages. As the time goes and the number of antiques stays the same, one should spend more and more time and efforts in order to locate something valuable.
In order to buy a piece of antique art, one should first find the owner who would be willing to part with it. The demand increases, people get more knowledgeable about the thing, so the prices escalate as well with the antiques becaming more rare.
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W:
Your passion on the subject is genuine and good to see. The usual FSU native has a view more reflecting (often) the woman (former fiancee) in the "Starting Over" thread. Antiques=used!
For me it has been a passion and a business, I've worked the antiques of St.P for a decade (20 trips). From the back courtyards of Nevsky, to Austrian Circle on Vasilevsky, to WWII Bunkers (now antique markets) in parks there is a lot to see.
If ever you have the chance, Udelniya station off the end of Metro (RedLine?) has one of the great open air Flea Markets every Sunday in an open field. This is next to electric train service line to Helsinki on the outskirts. Usually several thousand people.
I have purchased while there everything from Russian release Beatles albums and Levis (an emergency), to vintage Soviet Lomonosov porcelain, children's books of the Avant-Garde and Ruble coins from the 1830's.
They will also have everything to fix your kitchen, bathroom or car and clothe your entire family. And of course, sashlik...
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How about permissions for export of real valuable antiques from Russia?
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On antique export: less than 100 years old, no problem. Still, documentation is a good idea as you may be subject to attempted "shakedown" at airport. Icons, do not try it unless obviously new. Art work requires some stamps from office of "experts" but generally same 100 year rule applies.
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On antique export: less than 100 years old, no problem.
Nope.
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I've been "into" antiques almost from birth - that is when I began to see what's around :) Mind, - in St.Petersburg, which has gone in a short span of 30 years through 3 wars and 2 revolutions, through the siege - and even nore destructive through people bying varnished "stylish" pieces and sets from Eastern Europe and Finland, and moving to new housing - government and co-op, thowing out in the garbage museum pieces sometimes. I'm not kidding, my Mom and I used to visit houses whence all the people were relocated (the buildings themselves were for gut-rehab) and on the ubbish heaps found some nice pieces and three real treasures...
THe only thing - besides leaving my beautiful StPetersburg - which gives me a pang is what I had to leave there. And Mama cried when she had to sell and give away all the things with which we lived, and which in some cases were in the family for generations.
Wienerin,
With such words you identify yourself as someone who truly understands and appreciates antiques...not just the decorative arts aspects, but their history, the story they have to tell, and their warmth from years of care - they indeed have a heart compared to new stuff.
Nevertheless, I never encountered another RW with your sentiments. Perhaps there are more like you in St. Piter because it is so different from Moscow.
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OOOOPs:
Not sure what "NOPE" means, but I can only give you details of my personal experience. I have shipped both art and artifact out of the country 4 different ways. Personally carried by air and rail, air frieght to accompany me on leaving, DHL services and Russian Post (water).
This is not to say other people may not have had difficulties. I use good lawyers and export brokers and am careful not to do anything to cause questions. The 100 year rule is specific law and often quoted in better guidebooks.
Still, this is Russia... UMMV!
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OOOOPs:
Not sure what "NOPE" means...
Anything older than 1960 needs special permission to leave Russia. Icons and other art is even stricter than that.
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Wow Wienerin,
You are the person who can tell a lot about the topic.
I can talk a lot, it's true - you could have easily noticed this already ;) But as to "antiques" for the most part my perception of what this means varies widely from most of the Americans... Even in this thread you could see the range of what is considered an antique. For me everything after 1910s is collectable, curiosity, vintage, but not an antique. Not to mention that lots of stuff below this cut-off date is simply trash too. :) As my Mama used to say - at any time there are more bad artisans than good ones ;)
With his slight exaggeration, Gator probably meant that antiques tend to became harder to find, as their quantity obviously does not grow with ages. As the time goes and the number of antiques stays the same, one should spend more and more time and efforts in order to locate something valuable.
Sure, this goes without saying that the number of old things by definition can't increase. If you search for some precise period things you could notice other reasons why these are rare or rarely in a good condition. For example true Louis XV furniture is worth its weight in gold - it was made our of birch and linden and heavily coated with white and gold paint. The combination didn't wear well. You can find chairs (which were the first to come apart for obvious reasons) much older in much better shape than true LouisXV or even than neo-rococo revival of the end of the XIX c.
The difficulty also comes when you hunt for sets or pieces of similar design. Also if you want original, not modified or clumsily restored pieces. For example, most of the chair before 1860s didn't have springs - horsehair or sea grass only. But many were modified even in the XIX c when reupholstered for modern comfort;)
It's good to know your subject - and not to strive to be an expert in everything. I have very slight understanding of brass and silver, porcelain, rugs, textiles, etc.- only as much as I need in pursueing my main passion - furniture. Roughly you need to know three things: your period, what can or cannot be, and what can or cannot be restored.
Knowledge of some simple restoration techniques - i.e. what you can do yourself will save you literally thousands. Most people with money who are going now after the antiques want spectacular pieces in perfect condition. These command astronomical prices, of course. Very good and even better piece could be bought for a modest sum if it doesn't look so good - but some stripping, refinishing, shellac application, etc. will cost you almost nothing.
In order to buy a piece of antique art, one should first find the owner who would be willing to part with it. The demand increases, people get more knowledgeable about the thing, so the prices escalate as well with the antiques becaming more rare.
I wouldn't say that people are becoming more knowledgable. This is not my experience at all. And to say that the prices do nothing but escalate... see, there is a great influence of fashion, etc. on the antique market. Look for example on what I wrote about people simply throwing away shabby "Granny's stuff" or what you and others (I also) have observed about RW attitude to antique furnishings as old trash.
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Wienerin,
With such words you identify yourself as someone who truly understands and appreciates antiques...not just the decorative arts aspects, but their history, the story they have to tell, and their warmth from years of care - they indeed have a heart compared to new stuff.
Nevertheless, I never encountered another RW with your sentiments. Perhaps there are more like you in St. Piter because it is so different from Moscow.
Thank you :) Yes, a piece of wood which has been touched and lovingly cared for by
generations of long-gone hand - speaks straight to the soul :-* As we wax and polish, say, our secretaries-bookcases - I feel myself a link in the chain going back 150 years, from the cabinetmaker who lovingly crafted them to the women who bought them and cared for them, took pride in them as I do :)
And when I set the table with my beloved Asiatic Pheasants - also 100+ years old - the mood is lighter, the food tastes better and life is beautiful!
BTW there is more to this AP pattern than just its beauty. We had at home great-grandmother's dinner set in this pattern. To me it meant HOME - family meals, festive occasions, etc. I couldn't take this out of the country and was resigned to its loss, same to evrything else. But in a small store - more of a second-hand than an antique one, I saw a teapot of the same pattern and learned the name of it.
The teapot wasn't as beautiful as I remembered my pieces, and $35 they asked for it was a pretty big sum for us then (it was only 3-4 months that we came to Chicago), but it jolted me into thinking that maybe that life was not lost forever. I started looking on the web, in the antique shops and fairs - and now I have even more than there was at home. Only the soup tureen still eludes me, but I'll survive :)
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OOOOPs;
Please tell me how you had a problem, it might save me trouble in the future. As I said "Your Mileage May Vary." I take it you were stopped when actually trying to take something out of the country? I can only relate my experience of actually doing it 40 to 50 times in the four different ways mentioned, after following all requirements and never having a problem.
This quote, from "St. Petersburg; The Official City Guide" is from issue #2(17), page 55, left column, mid page under heading "The Customs," to wit: "It is not allowed to export from Russia any pieces of art and antiques produced before 1945. The export of works of art such as painting, graphics, sculpture, decorative and applied art produced after 1945 needs special authorization from the Commission of Experts for the Control over the Export and Import of Items of Cultural Value, irrespective of the form of their acquisition."
I have spent much time, with attorneys and translators and other local dealers at the above mentioned office (107 Griboedova Kanala nab.). It was here I was told the general 100 year rule was applied to most items unless considered culturally valuable to the state.
Their idea of that and mine was different (often). I was concerned about removing certain lithographs and "Luboks" nearly 100 years old that I thought would be considered important, they were not. The office seems to not be so much interested in what something is or the aesthetic value, as they are looking for high price tags or famous names.
I was even alllowed "without surcharge or further tax" to export a Lomonosov Avant-Garde agitprop plate of 1925 (by Nikolai Suyetin) depicting the "Decabrists."
It would be of value to me to know what kind of problems you have experienced with export and see the exact source for your above info on the restrictions you cited.
Still, I do not doubt the potential for problems and that is why I am careful. In this country, one IRS officer may tell you to do something which another later overrides. They are not liable, as they are not legally responsible for any advice given that may later be determined as wrong. In FSU, it is more about grease (IMHO).
Wienerin's comment about age is generally correct. Technically, antique for many items begins at 50 years, for most in Russia it means the Imperial period ending with the advent of the Soviets. My specialty is first half of the 20th century. Also, what his Mama said is right. Beauty may lie in the eye of the beholder, but is equally in the hand of the performer.
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OOOOPs;
Please tell me how you had a problem, it might save me trouble in the future.
We were trying to get "samovar' with lots of stamps "made in 1904" out of Moscow and failed. Good thing that our friend was seeing us off, so we didn't have to surrender that samovar to custom offisers. Now my Dad makes tea in that antique thing at his dacha. :D
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OOOOOP's
Thanks for the clarification. Airport personel are not as knowledgeable as the office I referred to upstream and they are more interested in the "grease." This has been my personal experience.
Still, if you had the proper documentation at the time from the office I mentioned, I doubt you would have had a problem. Their "stamps" trump most troubles on exiting the country.
What about the reference to 1960; where does that come from?
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What about the reference to 1960; where does that come from?
I don't remember to tell you the truth. Sorry. :-[
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Dears, I think I provided some information on legal regulation about antiques and export from Russia in this thread earlier, didn't I?
Nevertheless, I never encountered another RW with your sentiments. Perhaps there are more like you in St. Piter because it is so different from Moscow.
Gator, there are indeed RW with similar feelings. I used to know some. Mostly that sentiments reveal a person from a good home, mostly an intellectual one. There might be the case that they are shy to make an online profile, and it takes them not easy to openly declare that they want a good man to love :)
The usual FSU native has a view more reflecting (often) the woman (former fiancee) in the "Starting Over" thread. Antiques=used!
Gtex, to me that attitude described by you reveals a woman with whom I probably would not want to make friends. I'd say that would be not 'the usual FSU native', but the person who comes from somehow less than a good home, and missed a lot in her early life.
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Dears, I think I provided some information on legal regulation about antiques and export from Russia in this thread earlier, didn't I?
As I remember from my and some of my friends' and relatives' struggles with Russian customs regulations - eberything older than from 1945 is regarded as an antique and "national heritage" not allowed for exportation. However if it's something not distinguished or rare (or whatever - the judgement WOULD be rather cavalier) it could be possible to get a permission to take it out of the country. The task is pretty daunting given Russian bureaucracy - but if it's something very dear to you it's still possible.
Also one can try to be bold and brazen about it - only have somebody accompanying you so if the items are examined and prohibited you could hand them back - not abandon at the customs. My Mama brought beautiful Bohemian crystal glasses and some antigue porcelain and brick-a-brack - nobody ever gave these a glance.
With the younger items we enter a grey area. They may prohibit a garish daub by your school friend or bought at one of the art-fairs, and allow a very nice and costly piece of art go. The lists of objects wich you may or may not take out of the country, with official permit or not wjatsoever is miles long and it really takes an expert to navigate these waters - or luck, or whatever... Thing like Soviet Beatles record are not generally on the antique list however :D 1920 plate on the other hand - is, but not every customs officer would be able to recognize it for what it is.
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Gator, there are indeed RW with similar feelings. I used to know some. Mostly that sentiments reveal a person from a good home, mostly an intellectual one. There might be the case that they are shy to make an online profile, and it takes them not easy to openly declare that they want a good man to love :)
I beg to - most respectfully - disagree with this sweeping generalization. And I most vehemently object to any connection of the love to antiques to family values, shyness or otherwise and looking for a husband on the internet :P
Try to remember that Russia - as in Russian Empire and USSR (that is Urkraine, Belarus. etc. too) in the last century went through 5 major upheavals (specially in the European part) - 3 wars and 2 (or 3 - if you consider also the whole perestroika business) with destruction of homes, property, traditional values - and huge masses of people migrating all over the place, voluntarily or not.
So having been born and brought up in a home full of antiques and memories is more the luck of the draw. For the most people were not that fortunate. BTW none of my "ancestral homes" existed by the time I was born - with most of the family possessions and heirlooms gone.
Then the thing I mentioned already - simply poverty and terrible lack of goods, which on the one hand tended to preserve old household stuff (since there was nothing to replace it), but on the other hand put a higher premium on the chance and/or the ability to get new things. So modern, fashionable and even more so imported goods became a measure of a person's standing, prestige. Not very commendable, maybe, but that's life, that's what and how it happened.
The other - more subtle reason was that for the most of the time in Soviet Empire if wasn't very prudent to dwell on one's roots, ancestors, geirlooms, etc. ;)
Gtex, to me that attitude described by you reveals a woman with whom I probably would not want to make friends. I'd say that would be not 'the usual FSU native', but the person who comes from somehow less than a good home, and missed a lot in her early life.
Uh-oH! How so? How can such a smart person as you judge and so harshly someone (including her family and upbringing too) on the basis of no love for antiques? And, sorry, in my experience it is a usual FSU attitude - even in my beloved SPb, and even among many bred and born there.
BTW I didn't notice any crowds of American antique lovers in this thread ;) And also what many people here, in the U.S. think of as antiques to my mind would be old trash, sorry :( I wouldn't be terribly thrilled - as some of Russian brides revealed - brought to live in a home of someone who is an avid collector of Coca-Cola bottles and ads or antique fishing tackle - with the house chock full of these highly desirable objects and the guy hunting for more ;) Iron bedsteads of the 1910s vintage also do not excite me as they probably should as well as other rickety furniture which was cheap junk of poor workmanship in its maiden years and now is all the more depressing and awful.
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Wienerin, I admit I have been really less than fair with my words. Nevertheless, it has been my experience, probably memories from my childhood where lovers of oldtimers were loved by me, and those who thought it's just ugly old garbage were seldom among my loved ones. There were exceptions, however.
My apologies if my words were offensive to anyone.
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And also what many people here, in the U.S. think of as antiques to my mind would be old trash, sorry :( I wouldn't be terribly thrilled - as some of Russian brides revealed - brought to live in a home of someone who is an avid collector of Coca-Cola bottles and ads or antique fishing tackle - with the house chock full of these highly desirable objects and the guy hunting for more ;) Iron bedsteads of the 1910s vintage also do not excite me as they probably should as well as other rickety furniture which was cheap junk of poor workmanship in its maiden years and now is all the more depressing and awful.
What you describe are collectibles, not antiques. If collecting such is a joyful hobby to someone, I accept it as their personal choice. However, collectibles do not interest me because they lack what I described much earlier. Collecting real 200-yo antiques is an expensive hobby with many pitfalls. A person needs to educate himself/herself far more than if his/her hobby were collecting baseball cards or fountain pens.
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Hello all.
Here is a question that I have not seen discussed. Have any of the ladies here, especially those from Ukraine, been able to bring any family heirlooms to the West when they immigrated? When we first came to Houston last May, Vika brought only her clothes and some of her photos. We left all her family heirlooms securely locked away in our Odessa flat. Now she is there for the summer, and wants to bring a few things home, such as her huge tea maker that is well over 100 years old. It has been in her family since the late 1800s. I can only assume that she is going to have serious difficulty in getting this treasured piece home in August. Can someone please advise?
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I have this puzzling old 500-ruble banknote:
- Issued: 1920 (post Revolution).
- Emblem: twin eagles (not the Imperial ones), no visible Communist references.
- Quality of print and paper: very poor.
I wonder if our FSU ladies can make something out of its faint print (size: original). Some White Russian issue ?
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I have this puzzling old 500-ruble banknote:
- Issued: 1920 (post Revolution).
- Emblem: twin eagles (not the Imperial ones), no visible Communist references.
- Quality of print and paper: very poor.
I wonder if our FSU ladies can make something out of its faint print (size: original). Some White Russian issue ?
Apparently, this is a banknote issued by Denikin
http://kolekzioner.net/modules/smartsection/item.php?itemid=126
signed by М.В. Бернацкий
http://www.bonistikaweb.ru/STATYI/bernatskiy.htm
Strangely enough, the link does not mention the existence of a 500 ruble banknote. Perhaps, someone with more knowledge on the subject can clarify. Probably, it was issued by Wrangel (?)
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Thank you Fashionista, so my hunch was correct ;).
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I have this puzzling old 500-ruble banknote:
- Issued: 1920 (post Revolution).
- Emblem: twin eagles (not the Imperial ones), no visible Communist references.
- Quality of print and paper: very poor.
I wonder if our FSU ladies can make something out of its faint print (size: original). Some White Russian issue ?
Mikhail Vladimirovich Bernatsky, a Russian scientist-economist and Financial Minister of Russian Provisional Government, trying to fight against inflation ordered the printing of new money in London (as it was the best quality of printing and plus falsification protection) for a new money reform in South Russia (Crimea where Pyotr Nikolayevich Wrangel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyotr_Nikolayevich_Wrangel) was the Commander-in-Chief of the White forces). But Bernatsky's theory failed, as the new money did not have any value, because America refused loan to White South Russia, therefore that new money wasn't the real money in Russia. :)
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Mikhail Vladimirovich Bernatsky... ordered the printing of new money in London (as it was the best quality of printing and plus falsification protection)
Olga, I don't think my 500 R bill was printed in London, its quality is VERY low compared to older Imperial money.
P.S.: notice something peculiar in this 10-ruble banknote, analoguous to the 5 rubles I posted elsewhere ;)?
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Olga, I don't think my 500 R bill was printed in London, its quality is VERY low compared to older Imperial money.
Sandro, please look at the 500 R bill. If you can see the watermark Saint George it means that the bill was printed in London :)
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Sandro, please look at the 500 R bill. If you can see the watermark Saint George it means that the bill was printed in London :)
Nope, no St. George, the watermark covers the whole bill and looks more like a mosaic/tiled floor of some sort.
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Any guesses for the 5-10 Ruble peculiarity ? It's NOT a minor detail ;).
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Nope, no St. George, the watermark covers the whole bill and looks more like a mosaic/tiled floor of some sort.
Sandro, I just can not see the bill myself.
And sorry for the confusing. Bernatsky ordered the paper with watermark St George and also equipment and paint to print the bills locally in 1919, but I can not recall if that bills with St. George were printed
But it is the historical fact that the bills 100R, 500R and 1000R were ordered and printed in London. In January of 1920 the news paper "Free speech" announced that the transport with new money arrived from London.
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Sandro, I just can not see the bill myself. And sorry for the confusing. Bernatsky ordered the paper with watermark St George and also equipment and paint to print the bills locally in 1919, but I can not recall if that bills with St. George were printed But it is the historical fact that the bills 100R, 500R and 1000R were ordered and printed in London. In January of 1920 the news paper "Free speech" announced that the transport with new money arrived from London.
Olga, there only two possible conclusions: either your history is incomplete, or my bill is a piece of forgery ;D.
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Sandro,
the bills 5 and 10 R of 1909 were printed in Russia (Printing Plant of Goznak). The design of the bills were made by Russian artists and etchers as Yakob Reihel (he also was a scientist and wrote the books in the sphere of Russian numismatology) and Perikl Ksidias. (I'm not sure about English spelling)
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Olga, there only two possible conclusions: either your history is incomplete, or my bill is a piece of forgery ;D.
I don't know about a piece of forgery, but even Bernatsky did not know about design of the bills and watermarks that were made by English artist till last time :)
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Sandro, the bills 5 and 10 R of 1909 were printed in Russia (Printing Plant of Goznak). The design of the bills were made by Russian artists and etchers as Yakob Reihel (he also was a scientist and wrote the books in the sphere of Russian numismatology) and Perikl Ksidias. (I'm not sure about English spelling)
OK, but what makes them peculiar/unusual ? It's SO obvious, but I'll give a final hint:
Don't miss the forest for the trees ! ;D
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OK, but what makes them peculiar/unusual ? It's SO obvious, but I'll give a final hint:
Don't miss the forest for the trees ! ;D
Sandro, please don't "torture" me. :D My uncle collected old money and he wanted I to continue, but my "love to the money" was not so strong as he hoped :D I loved my Babushka's collection of greeting cards more :D
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Sandro, please don't "torture" me. :D
Alright, their peculiarity is that they are not printed 'horizontally' but 'vertically', as is a poster/affiche, in other words they are readable holding their short-side up, unlike any other banknote I've ever seen ;).
Olga, you do NOT win my 1-Ruble prize :( ;D.
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Alright, their peculiarity is that they are not printed 'horizontally' but 'vertically', as is a poster/affiche, in other words they are readable holding their short-side up, unlike any other banknote I've ever seen ;).
Olga, you do NOT win my 1-Ruble prize :( ;D.
:)
1919
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OK, you have enough 'vertical' rubles not to miss my 'horizontal' one. They must have been using some odd wallets to hold them, maybe a clever NKVD ruse to uncover any residual bourgeois ?
"Papers AND wallet, tovarishch !" 8)
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1915
paper kopecks :)
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:)
1919
Would make a nice deck of playing cards. I'd buy.
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About the same age (1923) and size, Weimar Germany's MUCH more valuable, no-frills banknote Marks :D.
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5 000 000 000 Mark (http://casa-latina.ru/s/s/icon_14.gif)
OK. what people could buy? :rolleyes2:
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5 000 000 000 Mark OK. what people could buy? :rolleyes2:
A loaf of bread or a pack of cigarettes, probably.
When I was a kid, I had some German postage stamps from that period, overstamped in red 50,000,000 Marks IIRC. Inflation was so bad and runaway that they had no time to print new stamps with corrected values, they just overstamped the existing stock.
One of the reasons Hitler was eventually voted into power ;).
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I guess German cashiers and especially book-kippers had a big problem with the endless lines of zeros (http://casa-latina.ru/s/s/icon_superschnute.gif)
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I guess German cashiers and especially book-kippers had a big problem with the endless lines of zeros
They probably had some surreal dialogues like:
Bank Mgr.: "What's the time, Hans ?"
Teller: "3 o'clock, Herr Schmidt"
Bank Mgr.: "Gut, add another zero to your ledger columns."
;D
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In the reign of Nikolas II the Finnish second-hand dealers were buying the 100R bills for 130 Marks each and after they were selling the bills to Swedish second-hand dealers for 200 Marks each :)
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In the reign of Nikolas II the Finnish second-hand dealers were buying the 100R bills for 130 Marks each and after they were selling the bills to Swedish second-hand dealers for 200 Marks each
The Finns fooling the Swedish :o? A well-kept secret, we should tell Diverboy :D.
P.S.: copycat, I was the first to post the 100R bill, here (http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=7915.msg143716#msg143716) :( ;D.
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Oh, sorry Sandro... I would link to your "Katen'kas" So now Dan's board has two Katen'kas (200 Tsar rubles ;) )
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So now Dan's board has two Katen'kas (200 Tsar rubles)
I contributed a total of 116 R (plus 500 dubious ones, not to mention the billions of Marks), you only 106.56 R IINM. You're lagging behind in your donations ;).
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I contributed a total of 116 R (plus 500 dubious ones, not to mention the billions of Marks), you only 106.56 R IINM. You're lagging behind in your donations ;).
Sandro (http://casa-latina.ru/s/s/icon_nono3.gif) I see you are a good accountant and probably you don't know that the Great Father of the Soviet Nations took the accountant courses in his time and he kept his all-seeing loving eye on the accountants.
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OK :)
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If the procedural part has already been answered then please accept my apologies.
My wife and I export art, hers and other artists. Art and antiques remain today in consideration as among those things which legally belong intellectually to all the Russian people and not just the property of an individual artist or craftsman. Therefore, as Lily indicated there is paperwork to produce, photos to document each piece, fees paid per export (if it is allowed for export) and procedures to be followed.
My brother is an antique dealer, he sells to malls and stores, and would LOVE to take some things out of the FSU if it were convenient and cost effective.
While anything over 50 years old is generally considered to be antique (that must include me!), the law on antiquities of the Russian Federation is that any item of historical and/or cultural value (including antiques, art works, musical instruments, books etc.) produced more than 100 years ago is prohibited and punishable by law. This excludes prior imported items shown on your customs declaration (if you brought something in then with proof you can take it out again).
Items more than 50 years old but less than 100 years old may (but not in every case) be exported after inspection and approval from the national Ministry of Culture. Art of any age is required to have approval although in many cases a receipt of some nice but obviously not of great importance art can slip thru in a suitcase. I've done it, but one must always remember that if inspected and caught, the Federal Customs Service (Russian Federation) language leaves no room for doubt--failure to declare means that you have certified by your actions that you possess nothing of value and if demonstrated otherwise the penalities can be severe. And in today's anti corruption mood an attempted bribe is a guarantee of a longer jail sentence or fine.
Items which are mandatory for declaration according to the law include:
Art
Antiques
Other cultural valuables (pictures, sculptures, icons, old coins, military decorations and medals, stamps and etc.)
Currency
Weapons/Ammunition
Radio-TV-Satellite-Communications equipment (Even a small shoulder held professional grade video camera coming in costs me 30% of the orginal purchased value over $2000--coming in, and going out if I failed to hold on to the original declaration upon arrival unless traveling on a journalist/diplomatic visa from the Ministry of Foreign Affairs).
We take Icons (not antique) out for personal use in our USA home and for family but those include a receipt of recent purchase from a church or monastery. Our good friend Sasha from Kyiv was prohibited from taking to the USA a old Samovar which he had received from an Uncle.
Here is the procedure for art and antiques:
- You must have a signed receipt from the seller proving your purchase (price, date, name and address of artist, etc)
- 3 colour photos must be made and taken to the Ministry of Culture-export office for each item.
- Customs forms and a form called TD-6 must be filled out in triplicate there for each piece/item.
- The art/antiques along with the photos and forms must be left at the Ministry for professional evaluation (usually takes 1/2 to 1 day)
- Upon approval, tax stamps must be purchased from the Bank of Russia. Usually only one Bank of Russia per city handles those stamps so usually you'll make it a "day trip" for buying the stamps once approval has been granted.
The above is generally, on routine art pieces, at best a 2 day process for 3-6 paintings. Add additional days for additional pieces.
(The goal of this process is to assure that your art, old artifacts such as icons, samovars, rugs, and antiques must have a certificate indicating that they have no historical value. That kind of kills the idea of exporting antiques for resale elsewhere.)
Next comes the Customs process on the day of departure from Russia:
- Arrive at the airport at least 4 hours before your flight.
- You must declare (Red Line) and have your paperwork copies, photos and stamps from the procedures above. This will be in duplicate as the Ministry of Culture office kept one copy of everything which was originally triplicate. Customs will keep one copy and the final copy is for the customs process upon arrival in your home country.
- Upon initial inspection a customs inspector will:
a) Call the airport's resident Customs Art & Antiquities Inspector to the scene (this could take awhile).
b) Call the Minsitry of Culture office to verify your document copies and photos (could also take awhile).
Hopefully this all can be done in no more than 2 hours because you still must go thru the other processes of checking in, Passport Control, etc. Don't cut it too close on time because they're in no hurry for you to take "national treasures" out of the country.
Once approved you'll proceed to the next steps of check in, etc. Keep the paperwork handy because you may be questioned on the contents of your luggage/packages several more times before boarding your plane.
Ministry of Culture:
In most cases the necessary documents can only be obtained in the city where the export will take place. For most Westerners that is either Moscow or St Petersburg.
Moscow
Tel: +7 (495) 629-2008
Малый Гнездниковский пер., (Little Gnezdhikovskiy, 7-6)
д. 7/6, стр. 1,2
St Petersburg
Tel: +7 (812)117-3496/5196/0302,
17 Malaya Morskaya St.
Email from anywhere: info@mkrf.ru
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As this thread deals with antiques, I thought it'd be best suited to my request for assistance.
Among the things I inherited from my Russian granny is this icon of Our Lady of Kazan (painted on wood, silver-framed, 12cm x 16 cm) - at least I can read KAZANSKII at bottom left:
(http://www.floriani.it/KAZAN.jpg)
The family story goes that it was a wedding present to my great-grandmother Elisaveta, an icon supposedly from the XVIIth century :-\ - but maybe that was the date of the original and not of this presumably later copy.
Coming to the point, its reverse side is covered in red velvet (now badly faded and discoloured) that bears an inscription not written in ink but impressed with some pointy tool (Attachment 2). I tried to manipulate the image to make the inscription more readable (Attachment 1), but cannot make much sense of it.
Can anybody else with a keener eye for cursive Cyrillic read anything there? If the story is correct, at least my great grandmother's name should be in it, and maybe a date in the late 1880s.
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1st line: 2 words
2nd line: 1 word
3rd line: 2 words, first definitely begins with Елис... so I am guessing it is Elisaveta, second word looks like begins with capital D, could be surname.
4th line: either one word or two written close to each other.
5th line: 2 words, both begins with capital letters, looks like it is name
6th line: not sure but guessing it is one word.
Calligraphy reminds me writings of old photos/pictures my grandma keeps.
I can make up some of the letters but not enough to read whole thing due to quality of photos. Any chance you can copy writing to your best ability to the piece of paper, take photo of it and upload here?
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3rd line: 2 words, first definitely begins with Елис... so I am guessing it is Elisaveta, second word looks like begins with capital D, could be surname.
Thank you for your efforts mA, her full name was Elisaveta Dimitrievna Deshayes so that D is probably her patronimic.
Any chance you can copy writing to your best ability to the piece of paper, take photo of it and upload here?
This gave me another idea: I'll try to make a rubbing of it like archeologists do on old inscriptions, and see if I can make the letters stand out more.
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This sample is quiet close to handwriting style you are trying to read.
(http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y285/sarahelizabethii/handwritten.jpg)
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This sample is quiet close to handwriting style you are trying to read.
Yes, but the letters are hardly legible on the velvet. I'll have to acquire a charcoal stick and some soft white paper for my rubbing at some artists' supplier, that should make the letters stand out more, white on black ;).
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Thank you for your efforts mA, her full name was Elisaveta Dimitrievna Deshayes so that D is probably her patronimic.
Not sure about that, it looks like after capital D is no more than another 4 letters (do you know correct spelling of her surname in russian?). 5th line which I said looks like name is more likely name of person she married if it was wedding gift.
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(do you know correct spelling of her surname in russian?).
No, the only reference I have is on a document written in French (http://www.floriani.it/leonida-eng.htm) with her husband's curriculum.
I know they pronounced it DEGAY, with the usual transformation into G of the initial H of a foreign word - her family probably descended from Huguenots fled from France in the XVIIth century.
5th line which I said looks like name is more likely name of person she married if it was wedding gift.
If you mean the bottom line, I'd guess it's more likely the signature of the donor, I think it starts with Rud..., and her husband's name was Leonid.
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I don't know what formulas the Russians used 130 years ago on marriage gifts, but I'd guess it could be something like:
- (Date?)
- To my dearest friend
- Elisaveta Dimitrievna
- On the occasion of her marriage
- My best wishes/congratulations
- (signed) The donor
- (Date?)
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No, the only reference I have is on a document written in French (http://www.floriani.it/leonida-eng.htm) with her husband's curriculum.
I know they pronounced it DEGAY, with the usual transformation into G of the initial H of a foreign word - her family probably descended from Huguenots fled from France in the XVIIth century.
Actually on the 3rd line where first word begins with Елис, second word begins with D, third letter in that second word seems to be x which in English is h, after that either one or two more letters. So it is more likely surname.
If you mean the bottom line, I'd guess it's more likely the signature of the donor, I think it starts with Rud..., and her husband's name was Leonid.
No, I mean line before it but there is definitely nothing that would match Леонид Павлович Алексеев. So there is a chance that is the name of donor. [Edit: but am I wrong to think first letter of the second word on that line is capital I (which doesn't exist in Russian language!)? I attached example of Ukrainian alphabet with marked letter that looks like the one in the message on icon)]
Last line could be something else (example something with religious meaning such as Храни Вас Бог, it is definitely not the one but something in that direction)
Edit: I sharpen photo a bit, it makes some letters more clear.
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Miss A, you have good eyesight I think. Even with glasses I only see scant forms. :)
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Looking at the inscription under a strong oblique light, I was able to discern some more words and letters (red dots for unknowns):
1st line: (something ending in li) 1887 goda
2nd line: S. Peterburg.
3rd line: 2 words, Elisaveta? Degai?
4th line: Bla..slovani.?
5th line: 2 words, too faint and closely written to make out
6th line: 1 or 2 words, starting Ru.ano?
The date is consistent for the wedding: my granny was born 14th May 1890, and her elder sister 28th December 1888 (old calendar).
(http://www.floriani.it/nonna.jpg)
Zhenya, 8 y.o.
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4th line: Bla..slovani.?
Благословение - The Blessing?
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3rd line: 2 words, Elisaveta? Degai?
Дегай?
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Дегай?
Looks like that, IINM.
Благословение - The Blessing?
Possibly. Would it be an augural formula like Blessings?
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Miss A, isn't that an old family name?
I'm thinking of the Russian statesman Павел Иванович Дегай from the Tsar's Imperial Court in the 1700s...
Sandro, the wedding connection might make sense as it was and is still a common tradition for the groom and bride to receive icons at the wedding ceremony or the reception thereafter. Often the groom receives an icon of Christ and the bride receives an icon featuring Mary holding the baby Jesus.
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Miss A, isn't that an old family name? I'm thinking of the Russian statesman Павел Иванович Дегай from the Tsar's Imperial Court in the 1700s...
Mendy, he might a relative of my great-grandmother and her brother Aleksandr Dimitrievic (http://www.floriani.it/zioalex-eng.htm), who was also seriously involved at Court. Pavel's son was Aleksandr Pavlovich Degai (1822-1886), Actual Privy Councillor, Astrakhan governor (http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Дегай,_Александр_Павлович).
I must now look for a Dimitri Degay to fill the gap :D.
Sandro, the wedding connection might make sense as it was and is still a common tradition for the groom and bride to receive icons at the wedding ceremony or the reception thereafter. Often the groom receives an icon of Christ and the bride receives an icon featuring Mary holding the baby Jesus.
OK, I think we've settled that it was indeed a genuine wedding gift as alleged ;D.
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Miss A, isn't that an old family name?
Yes, it is. This is what I managed to find (tho not sure if website is reliable enough to believe that info they are providing is correct):
Значение и история фамилии Дегай
Фамилия Дегай числится малораспространенной на территории России и стран ближнего зарубежья. В сохранившихся интересных древних бумагах жители с этой фамилией являлись знатными персонами из славянского тульского мещанства в XVIII-XIX в., имевщих определенную государеву привелегию. Древние корни фамилии можно обнаружить в перечне переписи Древней Руси в период Ивана Грозного. У государя хранился определенный список уважаемых и лучших фамилий, которые давались близким только в случае особых заслуг или поощрения. Поэтому эта фамилия пронесла свое неповторимое значение и является уникальной.
Написание фамилии латиницей: DEGAIY
http://www.onomastikon.ru/proishogdenie-familii-degaiy.htm
Meaning and history of surname Дегай
Surname Дегай is not very common on the territory of Russia and neighboring countries. In the surviving interesting ancient papers inhabitants with this surname were notable figures from Slavic Tula burgesses in XVIII-XIX c. , that had certain privilege from sovereign. The ancient roots of the name can be found in the census list of ancient Russia in the period of Ivan the Terrible.The sovereign kept a certain list of respected and best names that were given only in case of special merit or as promotion/encouraging. Therefore, this name has carried its own unique value and is unique.
Latin spelling of name: DEGAIY
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Often the groom receives an icon of Christ and the bride receives an icon featuring Mary holding the baby Jesus.
I believe it was tradition to give silver Icon of Jesus Christ called "God Almighty" [Господь Вседержитель] to groom and silver icon of Theotokos of Kazan (or also known as Our Lady of Kazan) [Казанская Богоматерь] to bride.
(http://ikonostas.biz/sites/default/files/imagecache/product_list/images/nabor_vd12mb222.jpg)
Sandro, from the script on the back of your icon it is obvious it is the one that was used by priest to bless newlyweds and their matrimonial life together. By tradition these icons should remain with couple throughout their lives. Icons are reminder of the oath of loyalty and love that they gave to each other at the Cathedral. More likely as well icons were gift from parents.
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Yes, it is. This is what I managed to find (tho not sure if website is reliable enough to believe that info they are providing is correct):http://www.onomastikon.ru/proishogdenie-familii-degaiy.htm
Yes, I have some doubts about its historical accuracy:
Meaning and history of surname Дегай
Surname Дегай is not very common on the territory of Russia and neighboring countries. In the surviving interesting ancient papers inhabitants with this surname were notable figures from Slavic Tula burgesses in XVIII-XIX c. , that had certain privilege from sovereign. The ancient roots of the name can be found in the census list of ancient Russia in the period of Ivan the Terrible. The sovereign kept a certain list of respected and best names that were given only in case of special merit or as promotion/encouraging. Therefore, this name has carried its own unique value and is unique. Latin spelling of name: DEGAIY
The highlighted text appears in most other names I looked up there :-\, and from the undescored text it appears as if Ivan was responsible for assigning family names :o. Is that possible ::)?
My granny was rather positive about the French connection ;D, and I see no reason why the official document of my great-grandfather's career curriculum (http://www.floriani.it/leonida-eng.htm), although translated into French, should also transliterate Дегай into Deshayes:
14° Etat de famille: marié en premières noces avec M.lle Deshayes Elisabeth Dmitrievna, fille du Conseiller d'Etat. A deux filles; Elisabeth, née le 28 décembre 1888; Eugénie, née le 14 mai 1890. Mère et enfants sont de religion orthodoxe et vivent avec lui.
I fail to see how the translator, whoever he/she was, could have presumed to take such a fanciful liberty with the original Russian text. Therefore although similar-sounding, on reflection I now consider rather tenuous the possibility of a connection with the Дегай family.
Another strange thing I noticed when looking for ALEXEIEFF (Алексеев): absent although still common nowadays IINM, but it lists some to me strange variations like:
- Алеексеев
- Алексеевв
- Алекесеев
All with the same blah-blah about Ivan the Terrible.
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I'll have to acquire a charcoal stick and some soft white paper for my rubbing . . . .
You EEtalians must be pretty hardy. I think hand lotion would be better for rubbing.
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Not sure why this came as up as a thread when I logged in.
There are multiple auctions and dealers out side of Russia/Ukraine offering mostly authentic Slavic antiques. If any are brave or ignorant enough to shop in Russia the results will most likely be painful for said buyer. The art will be very mediocre, the antiques mostly reproductions and the Icons copies of copies of copies, antiqued. In the art world Icons are mostly likely the second most difficult field to judge, there are many forgeries. The first being Italian/Dutch old master drawings.
Some good advice is give upthread about export from the former Soviet Union.