Russian Women Discussion
RWD Discussion Groups => Married => Topic started by: Zhena on May 08, 2006, 06:35:42 AM
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So the question is. Did you help to your fiancee on a regular basis and how much did you send if yes.
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So the question is. Did you help to your fiancee on a regular basis and how much did you send if yes.
Absolutely. Once Olya and I decided that she would come live with me in America, we made plans for her preparations, and it necessarily meant that she would quit her job in Ukraine. At that point, we were a "couple" in partnership together for life - and her decision to spend her time in preparations for a new life (English lessons, driving lessons, etc.) meant that the income she had depended upon needed to be replaced, so I replaced it. It wasn't much by western standards - about $300 per month IIRC - and I provided more than that - to pay for the various lessons she was taking, and preparations she was making.
- Dan
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Fiancee,
I sent my wife (now) money twice before she came to America. Â Once was to cover her travel expenses to Moscow and the cost of her visa. Â The second time was to give her money to buy some luggage for her trip here. Â She never asked or expected anything else.
KenC
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afiance,
Yes, I sent money (after we got engaged) for her English lessons, for the paperwork and travel to get the visa, and for the flight here of course, along with some extra money for her to use as she saw fit. Couldn't tell you exactly how much but she actually saved most of it and still has it in roubles which we will take back with us next month.
Ken
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Thanks,guys.
I asking because ,on my opinion,it shows your readiness to accept a woman in your life and help to her to adjust. As most of women who marry the americans,wont stay on their own feet at least during the first year so of course you will have to give the money to her.
And here a one of most popeuar points of early divorces-she complains that he doesnt give enough.
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And here is my reply.
I paid for the visa application and tickets t o my country. Otherwise I opened an account, gave her an ATM card to ensure that in case needed she would be able to access money.
It put € 500 on the account, and apart from the initial 'learning' she never made any withdrawal.
Should she have lost her job I would have been prepared to support her, but it was never needed.
The account and the card are hers, and I leave it up to her decision if she wants to work or not. So far she is happy at home.
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Thanks,guys.
I asking because ,on my opinion,it shows your readiness to accept a woman in your life and help to her to adjust. As most of women who marry the americans,wont stay on their own feet at least during the first year so of course you will have to give the money to her.
And here a one of most popeuar points of early divorces-she complains that he doesnt give enough.
Elena is so frugal with money is puts me to shame. I'm the one who buys too many unnecessary things. Before she was working I would give her money so that she would have some if she ever needed something and the next time I looked in my wallet she had put it back. She's been saving most of her pay to get some big ticket items for her mother when we visit next month. One heck of a good girl I've got here! ;D
Ken
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Indeed!!! I set up an ATM account and gave Val the PIN. Not only did it save money but made it so easy to accomplish paying for docs that were needed. Trusting her was easy. Many times she used her own money for things like translations, notaries. She did not feel right about not contributing to our future. She still feels this way. When she purchased tickets to fly here, she bought them there and it was much cheaper. I deposited money for business class because I wanted her to have comfort on the long flight and we bought tickets soon after the Kiev interview to be here ASAP. She orignally purchased business class because there were not seats. The agent called a few days before she left and said 2 seats opened in coach and asked if she wanted to change her seats. She saw the $400 the difference in price and didn't even give it a second thought and took the cheaper seats to SAVE us money. She's the same today. Very frugal, but when it's a matter of items that are quality, we think the same, you get what you pay for, and quality is better than cheap.
We have kept the ATM account(debit card) open and from time to time Mom and Pop will use the account to get things for her house in Ukr that we want done. Just recently we had them purchse a new water heater for her home and have it installed. Less than $200. The old one didn't produce much hot water and water had to be heated on the stove and taken upstairs. That was a pain in the ass. Now when we return, I'll have all the hot water I need in a few minutes. There have been some other things we have done as well for her home there but also there's ulterior motive. From time to time Mom and Pop use her home( especially in winter) and all these things make their life easier to. They're not spring chickens anymore and it makes us feel good to supply them with some added comfort without them feeling they are getting charity. Who knows, we may be living there for longer periods of tiem in the future ;) I sort of got off topic here, but for us support goes beyond just getting her here. I have a whole new family and they are just as important to me as my wife is.
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Very good,Start,it deserves a respection.
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Start 2
In whose name was the debit card? I went to the bank this weekend to try to do the same thing, but they refused to issue a card in her name. Only mine. Seems the Patriot Act prevents banks from giving out these things unless the person can pyhysically be present in the bank and present ID. I was thinking of just sending her my card and Pin, (separately of course)so it can at least be used in an ATM.
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Viking I had the same thing as Dutch banks do not accept anyone not having a Dutch social security number.
I opened the account in my name, as this is not a problem for the ATM.... ;)
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Viking,
It's true the bank will not issue a card in her name if she has no ID here. I simply opened the debit account in my name and gave her the card to use. There's a $200 limit per day on the account I believe. If more is needed she just planned ahead or used her own money that she saved or that I left with her for incidentals. She is from a smaller town so I never worried about a scam to steal her PIN. Doesn't mean it couldn't happen, it was there was less chance than in places like Kiev or Odessa. If you send her a card tell her to use the ATM's and not go inside the bank to a teller. They will ask for ID and since her name is not on the card probably won't honor it. I also told my bank that the card will mostly be used in Ukr., so don't put a hold on withdrawals if they see money being withdrawn from there. Also to my liking, my bank only charges $1.50 for each transaction. In my opinion, that's a bargain. Hope that answers your question. In 18 months or more we have never had a problem. Now for AOS sake, her name is jointly on this account.
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No, (shyly kicking the can), she helped me with money each month since she is so much more wealthy than me.
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:)
Well, I certainly helped her at the fiancee stage as we had wedding expenses to plan for.,,in her country.
So of course as my wife, after marriage and awaiting visa approvals,
I would support and help her .
(actually she kept working,but as the time to relocate drew near, she stopped to attend to the details, like traveling to warsaw and kiev that was needed.)
like some other guys-
i set up an ATM account and she had the card to use.,,
it wasnt a monthly set amount ,
she did have regular driving lessons ,
but basically it was there to use if she needed it. for things like KenC mentioned : luggage, travel expenses.
it was not a lot, but it was enough to lewt her make life a bit easier right before she moved , and to help her mother a bit.
We still help support her mother , as my wife was the only income for that household.
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Shadow
Start 2
Thanks. Kinda figured that was the way to go, but it helps knowing someone did before me.
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Great Thread!
I pretty much did the same thing as Dan. After we were engaged Yulia stopped working and I supported her. She needed to study English and that would have been very difficult if she were to still work ( Her work hours were ridiculous ) Also we planned on living together for a couple of months in Sochi and I sure as hell didn't want to spend that time waiting for her to come home from work anf being a house husband ;D  As I think back now, it was a very wise decision. By living together for that amount of time really solidified our feelings for each other. It would not have been possible if I did not take the risk of supporting her. Back in 2003 it cost us about $350.00 per month for all of her expenses.
A bit offtopic,
I had to laugh while reading Ken's post. I can piss away money like it is infected and buy items that will see little use.
I have to say that my wife handles money much better then I do, since we were married our expenses are MUCH less then when I was a bachelor, even with the expense of helping to support my MIL we still spend less money each month.
DonAz
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Fiancee,
I sent my wife (now) money twice before she came to America. ¦nbsp;Once was to cover her travel expenses to Moscow and the cost of her visa. ¦nbsp;The second time was to give her money to buy some luggage for her trip here. ¦nbsp;She never asked or expected anything else.
KenC
Yep. I asked the question before. Do not these women plan ahead? In anticipation of one day finding a man and moving somewhere don't the put aside some travel and relocation money? I ask it because I do know one Ukraine lady who put enough savings away to sustain herself and her son for two years living in the US. It must have been a chunk but was she the lone wolf?
Peewee
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Yep. I asked the question before. Do not these women plan ahead? In anticipation of one day finding a man and moving somewhere don't the put aside some travel and relocation money? I ask it because I do know one Ukraine lady who put enough savings away to sustain herself and her son for two years living in the US. It must have been a chunk but was she the lone wolf? Are Eastern Europeons the only society of people who prepare themselves for a major move without any funding for it? I see thousands of Asians, especially Vietnamese and Chinese who turn up on our beaches with money to not only live on but to begin business with. Is why I wonder about it.
Peewee
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Quote from: KenC on Yesterday at 09:43:24 AM
Fiancee,
I sent my wife (now) money twice before she came to America. ¦nbsp;Once was to cover her travel expenses to Moscow and the cost of her visa. ¦nbsp;The second time was to give her money to buy some luggage for her trip here. ¦nbsp;She never asked or expected anything else.
KenC
Yep. I asked the question before. Do not these women plan ahead? In anticipation of one day finding a man and moving somewhere don't the put aside some travel and relocation money? I ask it because I do know one Ukraine lady who put enough savings away to sustain herself and her son for two years living in the US. It must have been a chunk but was she the lone wolf?
Peewee
Peewee,
I have to assume you are asking your questions of me because you quote me. My wife didn't NEED any money nor would she ever accept it. I had to force her to take the money to cover her additional expenses related to her coming to be with me. Truthfully, neither she nor I ever considered it necessary to send her money to be my girlfriend. She had a life before we met and it was fine then and after. I really didn't spend any lavish amounts of money on her during our courtship either. But I did give her a lot of attention.
KenC
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Quote from: KenC on Yesterday at 09:43:24 AM
Fiancee,
I sent my wife (now) money twice before she came to America. ¦nbsp;Once was to cover her travel expenses to Moscow and the cost of her visa. ¦nbsp;The second time was to give her money to buy some luggage for her trip here. ¦nbsp;She never asked or expected anything else.
KenC
Yep. I asked the question before. Do not these women plan ahead? In anticipation of one day finding a man and moving somewhere don't the put aside some travel and relocation money? I ask it because I do know one Ukraine lady who put enough savings away to sustain herself and her son for two years living in the US. It must have been a chunk but was she the lone wolf?
PeeweeÂ
Peewee,
I have to assume you are asking your questions of me because you quote me. My wife didn't NEED any money nor would she ever accept it. I had to force her to take the money to cover her additional expenses related to her coming to be with me. Truthfully, neither she nor I ever considered it necessary to send her money to be my girlfriend. She had a life before we met and it was fine then and after. I really didn't spend any lavish amounts of money on her during our courtship either. But I did give her a lot of attention.
KenC
The question was for anyone who might know the answer. Your comments seemed very logical to me. Your way would be the way that I would want to do it.
Peewee
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No, (shyly kicking the can), she helped me with money each month since she is so much more wealthy than me.
You should advise Day Dreamer on RWG, his Moskvichka apparently earns around $120,000 in Moscow and is related to ex-KGB.....
Ste
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As I know,most of women,even if they earn enough,like to accept some support from a man because that makes them feel like a woman....Ready to get the tomatoes from KenC ;)
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:)
Well, I certainly helped her at the fiancee stage as we had wedding expenses to plan for.,,in her country.
So of course as my wife, after marriage and awaiting visa approvals,
I would support and help her .
(actually she kept working,but as the time to relocate drew near, she stopped to attend to the details, like traveling to warsaw and kiev that was needed.)
like some other guys-
i set up an ATM account and she had the card to use.,,
it wasnt a monthly set amount ,
she did have regular driving lessons ,
but basically it was there to use if she needed it. for things like KenC mentioned : luggage, travel expenses.
it was not a lot, but it was enough to lewt her make life a bit easier right before she moved , and to help her mother a bit.
We still help support her mother , as my wife was the only income for that household.
AJ,I saw your family in a gallery....your wife is very attractive. Does she work now?
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Yep. I asked the question before. Do not these women plan ahead? In anticipation of one day finding a man and moving somewhere don't the put aside some travel and relocation money? I ask it because I do know one Ukraine lady who put enough savings away to sustain herself and her son for two years living in the US. It must have been a chunk but was she the lone wolf?
Peewee
No.
1. Many women ( the best probably) do not plan to leave the country, they plan to find a husband. Only when they do they get the shock that they might actually have to leave their country.
2. Money in the FSU is unstable. Banks can go out of business in one day, and cash money an be worthless. People in Russia and Ukraine had this happen to them not so long ago. Would you be saving money if you knew it might be 10% of the value tomorrow ?
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No.
1. Many women ( the best probably) do not plan to leave the country, they plan to find a husband. Only when they do they get the shock that they might actually have to leave their country.
I that case Shads why do they advertise themselves on International Dating Agencies?
Ste
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Regarding helping financially, my wife is not yetn working and I do give her some money so she has some, but sometimes she gives it back, but I think they just wantb to see if you would be generous and want to know you don't want to be a skin-flint. ::)
tm33398
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Regarding helping financially, my wife is not yetn working and I do give her some money so she has some, but sometimes she gives it back, but I think they just wantb to see if you would be generous and want to know you don't want to be a skin-flint. ::)
tm33398
Exactly.
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As I know,most of women,even if they earn enough,like to accept some support from a man because that makes them feel like a woman....Ready to get the tomatoes from KenC ;)
So, men should "pay" in order for a woman to "feel like a woman"? Does she "feel like a man" without the payment? I treated my wife like any other woman I dated. I showered her with attention and affection with an occasional gift or two. None expected me to support them or raise their standard of living before marriage. I am more than a generous man, but I would resent it if money was expected for my friendship. If there is a dollar value put on a relationship, I wouldn't have the relationship. It all smacks of prostitution to me. And I know my wife feels the same.
KenC
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I that case Shads why do they advertise themselves on International Dating Agencies?
Ste
Cause they want to make money of silly men :)
Putting a profile on a website does not mean you are actually planning or even believing it will work.
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So, men should "pay" in order for a woman to "feel like a woman"? Does she "feel like a man" without the payment? I treated my wife like any other woman I dated. I showered her with attention and affection with an occasional gift or two. None expected me to support them or raise their standard of living before marriage. I am more than a generous man, but I would resent it if money was expected for my friendship. If there is a dollar value put on a relationship, I wouldn't have the relationship. It all smacks of prostitution to me. And I know my wife feels the same.
KenC
You dont understand,Ken. If the dollars mean more for you than your women,how will she believe that u truly love her? She may not really need,but you have to show your readiness to open your purse for her. Any of us can loose all what he has. If your woman loves you,she wont leave you because of that and will support you. And if she needs a help today,you have to show to her that you are ready to give it.
This is a womans opinion. And dont tell me your wife is different.
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You dont understand,Ken. If the dollars mean more for you than your women,how will she believe that u truly love her?
And how you we know she really loves us and not our money?
If the dollars mean more to her how can we believe she truly loves us?
I can't belive I'm hearing this......
Ste
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I am getting worried....
I am wearing a gold bracelet and every now and then my fiancee kisses it telling that Russian girls love gold.
Perhaps I should install that keylogger. :hairraising:
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You dont understand,Ken. If the dollars mean more for you than your women,how will she believe that u truly love her? She may not really need,but you have to show your readiness to open your purse for her. Any of us can loose all what he has. If your woman loves you,she wont leave you because of that and will support you. And if she needs a help today,you have to show to her that you are ready to give it.
This is a womans opinion. And dont tell me your wife is different.
The key word here is "need'. There is a big difference between "need" and "want". It is not my responisbility to raise the living standards of a "friend". I wouldn't do it here in America with the women I dated nor would I do it in a fsu country.
If her love is defined by my ability to pay, I wouldn't want it! And yes, my wife is very very different from you. She would die before she asked for a handout. Too much pride for that sort of thing.
KenC
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peewee--
with regard to your question - what? dont they plan ahead?,-
I echo shadows statements:
generally
No. for many reasons
1. Many women ( the best probably) do not plan to leave the country, they plan to find a husband. Only when they do they get the shock that they might actually have to leave their country.
I would ad to that the percentage that place an on line ad, that eventually marry is akin to hitting the lottery, so its isnt unrealitic to run an ad yet fully expect NOT to get married and relocate. (to expect you will end up meeting and marrying a local man for example)
In addition it is somehat a RW trait to look at the future negatively,,if it can be bad a result , it will be (yes, they are all individuals so of course YMMV)
2. Money in the FSU is unstable. Banks can go out of business in one day, and cash money an be worthless. People in Russia and Ukraine had this happen to them not so long ago. Would you be saving money if you knew it might be 10% of the value tomorrow ?
i would ad to this , that while the economy gettng better ,
and many people ¦nbsp;make a decent standard of living,the reality is that ¦nbsp;MOST do not have the income level needed to save money for some "possible" future event,. in fact they are counting kopecks for this months bills. This doesnt mean dirt poor, but it does mean that thier current bills require all thier effort and resources to meet, there is not surplus for the harboring of some big nest egg. I think the RW that have the salary and means to do so , and fully plan to relocate , do indeed save for the relocation
As far as helping your g/f or fiancee to *buy* the relationship,,
i've seen many men do this.Right or wromg it happens,, thats between them.
Also certainly some women would want to see if the man was generous as well,, it is kind of a High schoolish game.
but in the context of this *reality* - that the two people often dont even really know each other, it makes perfect sense?
In our case i knew my wife long term..before engagement,
and so of course if we were to be married wanted to do what i could for her .
before and after marriage.. no it wasnt lavish, I did not have such means ,and she understood this..
but on the other side of things ,
while ¦nbsp;i understood that she could get by without me, and had for years, but she ¦nbsp;would struggle.
and I would want to make her life a bit better or easier if i could do so.
It could be looked at as *buying * a relationship,
or looked at as just being what it was, a fiancee or husband with full intentions
of of helping the people out that are in his life.Especially family.
All these things can be taken way too far in both directions!
To me if a man who has the means to make his fiancees life a bit better,
and knows his fiancee is struggling to make ends meet, and is working extra hours to pay the added expences and hardships of visa documentation and running around..
but does nothing, is ridiculas..
of course this is assuming she is struggling (most are)
and also assuming he knows her well!!
(if he doesnt know her, like many cases, then ¦nbsp;i understand the lack of any support)
but i have to be blunt- if you know her well enough to propose, you should then man up and help if she needs it,, YOU made that choice when you popped the big question.
if you were not ready to do so,,
then for gawd sakes WAIT untill you are sure about her , her motivations, and YOUR feelings of commitment to her.
because in MOST cases she is going to need some help to get established in a new country.. its a bit to naive to think not.
If you think you arnt going to be supporting her in that 90 day K1 window... you are probably not being realistic, or you have a RW outside the average means.
If you think she doesnt need a bit of your help while awaiting the K1 process, you are also engaged to a RW beyond the average salary, or from a family that is doing a bit better than average.
Truth is:
Each situation ,and the dynamics of every relationship ,would be so very diffgerent, only the people involved would truly know what is appropriate..??
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*afiancee* - she is a mother/homemaker currently ..and we are planning children soon..but yes she wants to work and has continued her education in preporation for employment..
STE-
of course its a fine line to walk,,
but as a man, thats a mans problem..
if he cant distinguish wether a woman loves him, or just his ATM card,
then he¦nbsp; probably isnt at the point that he should be engaged yet.
If he is engaged, and witholding financial support to "test" her, is that truly any different than her expecting an offer of some money (that she knows he has) to see if he is a generious man?and actually cares about her?
silly vicious circle.
*afiancee* has a valid piint in my mind.
most RW, will be in a situation of struggling,
they will most likely be engaged to a man with the means to help somewhat.
if a man proposing marriage, knowing her situation well,
doesnt offer any help,, that speaks volumes to her.
and honestly- it SHOULD.
the other side is that most RW are indeed much too proud to ask, and many times would need to force her to even accept..
but then again -in her culture -THATS THE MANS JOB to do!
(to not only offer ,but make her accept it)
this all boils down to :
if you think you will marry a woman from an entirely different¦nbsp; culture , and that not have some effect on her mindet , and what she views as normal, while your view may be quite different, again you arnt being realistic?
KenC- of course you dont support a friend,,and i certainly dont think anyone should.
but you were not engaged to your wife while she was in Russia..??
she was a g/f??
she was in the U.S when you became engaged?
That's an entirely different scenerio than what *a fiancee* is presenting..??
My gut tells me if¦nbsp; you had been engaged in Russia,
to an average salary/family RW, that you would have insisted she take some help during that period, and you wouldnt have considered it *buying* her , as you are the type that would be sure of who he was engaged to.
so it seems odd to me that you are argueing on the other side of the fence, in the light the question was presented.
I could be wrong.. it happens a lot - just ask my wife she KNOWS i am wrong quite often ;) LOL!
Like Ken stated though:
I would say it was a BIG problem for us, as my wife really needed the help,
and it was a huge fight for me to get her to grudgingly accept,,,
she would rather die first.Too much pride is not always a good thing.
(but yes a RW generalization that seems to hold up)
There was no need for those early problems over something so obvious.
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On my third trip to visit my wife we were engaged. To me being engaged was a commitment as valid as saying 'yes' walking up the aisle. When I left I gave her the small bit of leftover travel cash and one of my c cards that could be used at ATM's. When she hesitated I told her not to worry.. it's 'us' now so if she feels she needs something she should get it.. it's OUR money.
When the cc bill arrived at the end of the month I was in shock.. 100 here, 200 there.. all in all about 1500..
RUBLES!!!!!!
I called her and informed her that at this rate we would go broke.. It was difficult to explain the concept that we were being eaten alive by the minimum atm bank charges amounting to over 30% of her total withdrawal amount.
Solution: Take more out of the ATM.. a lot more!!!
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And how you we know she really loves us and not our money?
If the dollars mean more to her how can we believe she truly loves us?
I can't belive I'm hearing this......
Ste
You can check it in many ways,Ste.
But if you look for a woman withoiut the financial problems,hwo will she know that you love her,but not her money huh?
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The key word here is "need'. There is a big difference between "need" and "want". It is not my responisbility to raise the living standards of a "friend". I wouldn't do it here in America with the women I dated nor would I do it in a fsu country.
If her love is defined by my ability to pay, I wouldn't want it! And yes, my wife is very very different from you. She would die before she asked for a handout. Too much pride for that sort of thing.
KenC
She shouldnt ASK-you should give it to her without any asking! Otherwise can you call yourself a man? Asking is humiliating!
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And honestly<KenC,ypur poor wife will never tell you her real wishes because she knows you dont like it. But I can imagine how happy she would be if you would give some money for her own pleasure or some small present.
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I that case Shads why do they advertise themselves on International Dating Agencies?
Ste
When you come up with the answer for that Ste then you can start to figure out why us old farts write to gals who are in the 20's or less and look like runway models. Probably the reason is pretty similar except the gals have a better chance. :o
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Everyone has a different attitude towards money and it’s their own business what they do with their money… somebody spends, somebody saves…
I love to spend money… I love nice clothes, going to nice places, traveling, making gifts for my friends and just helping people I know… guess that’s why I might never be rich! LOL ;;D But for me life is about giving… doesn’t matter how much I have there is always somebody who has less, and if it is my friend or a person I like, I will always help… That’s why I appreciate giving people – the first thing I loved in my husband… when we started dating he was buying me anything I liked… I’m a nice person so I didn’t make him broke ;)… LOL when we got engaged my husband sent me around $500 every month, I was still working and making enough money…. so that extra money I spent on my family and friends… having a good time with people I love and paying back to people who was helping me financially when I was really really broke…
Of course, when you have children there should always be sensible limits on spending… so I’m more saver than spender now…
but I know if anything happens and I’ll need money or anything there are more than plenty of people all over the world who will there for me and my family…
My husband was never sure that I’d marry him… he just took the risk hoping that we have future together… now he has a loving beautiful intelligent wife and wonderful son (who is the most beautiful smartest kid ever existing 8))..
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My reasoning is similar to BC's (think it was BC) - as soon as we became 'an item' what's mine was also hers. Including the debts - harhar! I got a spare ATM and gave it to her and she never used it except to pay for her flight here.
As for 'a fiancee' we'd have to disagree on this, but your choice of avatar has already made up my mind about what you expect from life....
Ste
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mischief,
Reading your post is almost like hearing my wife speak..
Whenever I say "Honey, we just can't afford it right now" she responds: 'Bez problem!.. you just have to work more!'
I just love the logic..... ;D
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My reasoning is similar to BC's (think it was BC) - as soon as we became 'an item' what's mine was also hers. Including the debts - harhar! I got a spare ATM and gave it to her and she never used it except to pay for her flight here.
As for 'a fiancee' we'd have to disagree on this, but your choice of avatar has already made up my mind about what you expect from life....
Ste
Hehe,share it with me,what I expect from life?...Very interesting,how you can predict my expectations by my avatar...
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Ste
Hehe,share it with me,what I expect from life?...Very interesting,how you can predict my expectations by my avatar...
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mischief,
Reading your post is almost like hearing my wife speak..
Whenever I say "Honey, we just can't afford it right now" she responds: 'Bez problem!.. you just have to work more!'
I just love the logic.....¦nbsp; ;D
LOL... yep, that's right! and you can work at night too! btw, my husband feels for you! ¦nbsp;;)
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Let me guess....
I expect...to drink much! :o Is it following from my avatar? ;D
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She shouldnt ASK-you should give it to her without any asking! Otherwise can you call yourself a man? Asking is humiliating!
That is the single most stupid thing Ive ever seen posted about anything.
I ask for many things. And Ive never felt humilitated.
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And honestly<KenC,ypur poor wife will never tell you her real wishes because she knows you dont like it. But I can imagine how happy she would be if you would give some money for her own pleasure or some small present.
a Fiancee,
I wish I could explain just how comical your post is to me. Let me just say that she is the single most headstrong person I have ever met. Never will she placate me. She speaks her mind without regard to what anyone else's opinion.
I am curious. When you say:
"She shouldnt ASK-you should give it to her without any asking! Otherwise can you call yourself a man? Asking is humiliating!" Why should I pay for her to be my girlfriend? And what is the justification for her? Is it all just a barter deal then? If it is assumed that the AM should put the RW on an allowance, what is the return to the AM from the RW? If I had to pay for a girlfriend, it would be by the night and then I would kick her out after I was done with her. Please get this straight: MY WIFE WOULD NEVER ACCEPT A CASH PAYMENT AS YOU SUGGEST IS NORMAL. IT GOES AGAINST EVERYTHING SHE WAS EVER TAUGHT AND HER PARENTS WOULD DISOWN HER IF SHE DID. SHE WOULD THINK OF HERSELF AS A PROSTITUTE.
KenC
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This is a womans opinion. And dont tell me your wife is different.
Opinion of this particular woman, not all women in FSU. For a start, I am different. Yes, my husband sent me money, but not to show whatever you imply here but for necessities I couldn’t afford myself – trips to Moscow, medical test, English courses etc. I was very careful with the money and managed to save 1 K. I worked all the time and was doing whatever I had to do after work and I had a son to look after. I had even to postpone my flight to Au because of my work commitments. I don’t see any reason why woman should give up work and depend totally on man. Of course if he is living with her most of the time it is different story. They have to spend their time together, otherwise... :-\
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Wild Orchid-
you closely decribe what happened with our situation.
but honestly if i hadnt offered and then insisted to help ,
my wife would have thoght she married a man with his a wallet a little to closer to his heart?
it isnt WHY i offered and insisted,
it's who i am ,
and she knew that about me ..
but did not USE that against me for personal gain or proofs of love ,
big diffrence.
I knew her struggling economic /work situation well, to not even offer ,
would be a bit weird in our particular situation, (and it mimicks many couples) could she have made it all on her own ? of course
yes and mostly she did so..
was it likely important to her that i would offer, I think anyone rational would assume yes.
KenC, i dont see *afiancee* saying anything at all about g/f support?
To imply fiancee support is akin to prostitution is a bit out there,
and could be applied to marriage as well.
Neither of our wives work now? if you want to draw some big line in the economic sand , of partially supporting her in the short engagment period by comparison , go for it.
danack said I ask for many things.¦nbsp; And Ive never felt humilitated.
Good for you!
but to someone with little income , but huge pride, even talking about a nessisity might be humiliating?
anyway i'd walk a few kilometers in a those typical RW stillato's before passing much judgements on what or what would not be humiliating for someone from another culture.
To some, showing your ankles is an embarrasing experience right? ;)
Its doubtful it would bother you.
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Wild Orchid,
I see nothing wrong with how you and your hubby handled things. You had a needfor additional money and he took care of it. That is how things should work. Where I draw the line in my opinion, is when the money is expectedjust to improve the woman's lifestyle.
AJ,
You wrote:
"KenC, i dont see *afiancee* saying anything at all about g/f support?
To imply fiancee support is akin to prostitution is a bit out there,
and could be applied to marriage as well.
Neither of our wives work now? if you want to draw some big line in the economic sand , of partially supporting her in the short engagment period by comparison , go for it."
Please go back and reread my posts. I was very specific to say girlfriend and not fiancee or wife. Still a Fiancee challanged that what I wrote was wrong. I agree with you when you say that the short time between engagement and marriage is a small detail. What does frost my nuts, is when Fiancee explains that it is expected by all RW for the AM to improve their lifestyle and if he doesn't he is something less than a man. Let us review some facts:
#1 Not all fsu women are in dire straights financially. My wife had a good life and never went hungry. Her parents are not rich, but not poor either. They are one of the few true middle class Russians.
#2 My wife would have never accepted an allowance of any sort from me. She was always very careful as to the value of the gifts she would accept too. She never wanted to be perceived as a "kept woman" under any circumstance. This was not only with me, but with all men. She had dated some very wealthy Russians.
#3 With no actual needfor additional cash why would I send any? I don't agree that it was ever my responsibility to upgrade a gorlfriends lifestyle on a regular basis. Sure she could take advantage of the places I took her to or the events I shared with her, but to pay a regular allowance is way out of line in my books.
BTW, a "fiancee" is still a girlfriend pending marriage.
KenC
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Good for you!
but to someone with little income , but huge pride, even talking about a nessisity might be humiliating?
Â
anyway i'd walk a few kilometers in a those typical RW stillato's before passing much judgements on what or what would not be humiliating for someone from another culture.
To some, showing your ankles is an embarrasing experience right? ;)
Its doubtful it would bother you. Â
As a teacher I know all about "little incomes". When I was married, if I wanted shorts, or anything I needed, I ran it past my wife. "Hey honey, Im thinking of picking up some shorts tommorow, what do you think?" She would either say "ya, that seems like a good idea.", or "No you have plenty of shorts, what about the jean shorts, blah blah." then a discussion would ensue about where I would buy them, and often what style and the cost. Frankly I cant think of much that I am embarassed about. I guess I've given up on embarassment totally.
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She shouldnt ASK-you should give it to her without any asking! Otherwise can you call yourself a man? Asking is humiliating!
I was almost ready to give you some credence but after this remark I think I know you or someone exactly like you. You are a player. You are user. You give yourself to the highest bidder and play men like they're your personal toys. You've been schooled very well. You take and take and never give. There is a name for women like you.
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There is nothing wrong in accepting money or gifts from the person who cares about you and wants to make you happier… There is nothing wrong in giving money or gifts to the person you feel good with, who makes you happy emotionally or physically… In fact it is expected from men to do so with their lovers/girlfriends/wives in the FSU… one of the reasons that a man still makes more money and all the macho crap…
The traditional roles such as a man is a provider and a woman is supposed to please her man are changing but slowly… and it’s a common understanding that if a woman makes you happy you are supposed to support her whether… You, guys, with your western mentality might disagree and have hard time understanding… but it’s the way things are… I still remember the joke my dad made, who is a wonderful husband and father who brought up four wonderful kids… he said I wish I was rich so I could afford a lover… mind you, not a prostitute, just a woman to have an affair with…
So guys, if a woman loves gifts and happily accepts you supporting her it doesn’t mean that she is scamming you or she will be a bad wife…
As to me, I have no problem if my boyfriend/husband supports me financially as well as I’d have no problem supporting my boyfriend/husband if I were wealthy one…
And hey, if you are old but you have money to afford any beauty in the world, who cares if she doesn’t love you but your money… you are happy â€cos she pleases you all right, she is happy â€cos she can have her pretty things… enjoy your life and have fun! I’m working on it too… so when I’m old and crappy I can afford young hotty! He he he!
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anyway i'd walk a few kilometers in a those typical RW stillato's before passing much judgements on what or what¦nbsp; would not be humiliating for someone from another culture.
¦nbsp;
Good line, AJ ….
Another thing, if you were born in poverty and begging you won’t find it humiliating because you don’t know any better… Lots of people had decent lives with stable salary and when the Soviet Union fell apart most of these people found themselves in poverty, especially vulnerable were teachers, doctors, musicians… they weren’t taught how to survive, they were respected and proud of what they are doing… and now they have to go and beg somebody for help because they have nothing to put on the table…
Daknack , please, don’t even compare your little income and embarrassments with poverty and tragedy of the FSU people!
In Russian we have two words “бедноŃть” and “нищета”… both in English will be poverty but first means like Dacnack’s little income and the second means abject poverty… so there is a good line by Dostoevskij in “Crime and Punishment” : “The poverty is not a vice it is the truth… but abject poverty is a vice… In poverty we still can keep inborn nobility and decency but in abject poverty nobody can do it …never! In abject poverty I will be the first who insults myself...” (sorry for the translation, can’t think that clear at midnight…)
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Please go back and reread my posts. ¦nbsp;I was very specific to say girlfriend and not fiancee or wife.
KenC -actually i have noticed your distinction..
I guess thats my misunderstanding,, of the argument even -
as i know you are clearly stating g/f
yet i understand *a fiancee*
to be clearly stating fiancee or wife.not a word about g/f
*shrugs*
at any rate:
i wouldnt want a kept woman or girlfriend,
but would certainly want to help my fiancee , and think there is a big difference between a commitment to marry and going thru the
regulastions and paperwork to do so,
than simply a girlfriend.
as far as that being a normal expectation by RW,
i think in that culture -
a *kept woman * doesnt have the same stigma it does here,
so while some women might never feel right about such a thing,
and view it poorly -
many others wouldnt think that badly of it!!
regardless of a different social/cultural outlook on "kept g/fs"
i am certain the mentality of many RW after being engaged:
is to expect the *husband to be* to at least "offer" assistance.
she may except, decline, be offended by the mere thought of such offer, simply act offended by the offer - or a multitude of other responces..
but my belief is in THAT culture it would be viewed by most women as strange if no offer was even made, and likely a guide in thier minds to how generous thier husband to be , will become.
Just like a westerner putting his standards into the mix,
a RW will just as surely judge her western husbands actions by what she, and perhaps just as importantly her peers,feel is the norm in her culture and experience?
will there be all different reactions and thoughts on this? absolutely.
will many RW echo *afiancees* basic sentiments?
In my experince, yes.
of course its only my opinion!
but i feel a big percentage of RW would find it bizarre if a womans soon to be husband ,
with engagement announced and relocation or wedding planned,
was not offering her financial support.
Western men may find that a tough thing to swallow,
not sure why. . cultures and expectations differ..
there are exceptions to EVERY generalization:
but -
RW tend to dress better ,certainly sexier, and be more aware of thier apperance,
Western men take that in stride and without choking on it.
if you tell them that generally RW expect more from a man on the economic front, and despite being independent souls , are not nearly so financially.
Many will quickly equate a mans willingness to spend on her-
to how much he loves her,,
then watch the SAME western men hack and cough..
and say "it aint so!"
(hey maybe they are right? but its funny how positive steroetypin goes with
hurrays!! ,yet anything negative is ,, meet with well disbelief )
Is it THAT hard to imagine that in a more long term constrained economy,
a mans willingness to spoil her with what little he has, or what abundence he has,
is valued more ,
and more weight put on it,,
than in a wealthier society/culture?
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Wild Orchid-
you closely decribe what happened with our situation.
but honestly if i hadnt offered and then insisted to help ,
my wife would have thoght she married a man with his a wallet a little to closer to his heart?
I never had to ask my husband for money, he knew what cost was involved in proceedings and he said from the start that he will pay for everything because there was no way I could afford it. But there was never a question that I should quit my job to “prepare” myself. I was waiting for my visa for 18 months. Should I expect my husband to pay for all my needs at this time? I remember posts here or on RWG were guy was saying that straight after they apply for visa his woman stopped working and he paid for everything – travel expenses, food, accommodation etc. She lived without him before in her own country, why all of sudden she can’t? It is common knowledge that the most of us have to stay at home for quite a while in new country, and it is not easy to find a job, why would anyone want to extend this period? Of course if she is some lazy type who likes to sleep till 10 a.m. then may be… But how many of us like that?
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Ste
Hehe,share it with me,what I expect from life?...Very interesting,how you can predict my expectations by my avatar...
Your Avatar gives the impression of :
A Lady of leisure and ...... pleasure!
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a Fiancee,
I wish I could explain just how comical your post is to me. Let me just say that she is the single most headstrong person I have ever met. Never will she placate me. She speaks her mind without regard to what anyone else's opinion.
I am curious. When you say:
"She shouldnt ASK-you should give it to her without any asking! Otherwise can you call yourself a man? Asking is humiliating!" Why should I pay for her to be my girlfriend? And what is the justification for her? Is it all just a barter deal then? If it is assumed that the AM should put the RW on an allowance, what is the return to the AM from the RW? If I had to pay for a girlfriend, it would be by the night and then I would kick her out after I was done with her. Please get this straight: MY WIFE WOULD NEVER ACCEPT A CASH PAYMENT AS YOU SUGGEST IS NORMAL. IT GOES AGAINST EVERYTHING SHE WAS EVER TAUGHT AND HER PARENTS WOULD DISOWN HER IF SHE DID. SHE WOULD THINK OF HERSELF AS A PROSTITUTE.
KenC
Well,your posts seem to be comical for me too-but I wont tell you anything what might insult you,ok? Because I suppose that the other opinions have a right to exist too-not only mine.
I understand your model of family when everyone has his own account. Its a western model and its very spreaded. I am sure that your wife is very strong one. But I am sure as well that she missed something very important in her life. To separate the accounts,seems to be like living together but not a marriage. IMHO. Woman have to be a woman.
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That is the single most stupid thing Ive ever seen posted about anything.
I ask for many things.ďż˝ And Ive never felt humilitated.
No comments.
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Opinion of this particular woman, not all women in FSU. For a start, I am different. Yes, my husband sent me money, but not to show whatever you imply here but for necessities I couldn’t afford myself – trips to Moscow, medical test, English courses etc. I was very careful with the money and managed to save 1 K. I worked all the time and was doing whatever I had to do after work and I had a son to look after. I had even to postpone my flight to Au because of my work commitments. I don’t see any reason why woman should give up work and depend totally on man. Of course if he is living with her most of the time it is different story. They have to spend their time together, otherwise... :-\
Who said she should give up her work?..
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I was almost ready to give you some credence but after this remark I think I know you or someone exactly like you. You are a player. You are user. You give yourself to the highest bidder and play men like they're your personal toys. You've been schooled very well. You take and take and never give. There is a name for women like you.
No comments.
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Your Avatar gives the impression of :
A Lady of leisure and ...... pleasure!
Your posts-their tone-not worthy as old man as you are. No more comments.
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I turned all avatars off.. find them distracting.
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To sum it up,I got many insults in my adress for an innocent topic I opened-because was curious to heard the opinions. You dont know ANYTHING about me but some of you dared to call me from a player till a girl for a pleasure. Shame on you,guys,shame...Learn the rules of etiquette and learn more about a russian menthality before you marry a woman from here.
But I am glad I saw the normal guys who have a successful marriage and I wish them a lot of peace and happiness :)
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We have a saying in the US. If it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, its a duck.
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This thread did started out innocent enough but as`Ms. Lauper' would would say, "true colors always shine through" . Dak, I'm glad you see it too. There's another saying, 'watch out for the wolf in sheeps clothing." So what is it that a female wolf is called? Hmm. I think one resident psychologist is enough here and even though I was not personally attacked, I prefer not to come here and be degraded for being a male. Oh the joy if only the "no comments" were true.
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Hey I didn't pick apart every post here but it seems fiancee was simply stating that it's the man's job to be sensitive enough to make sure his wifes' needs are covered without requiring a 'preety pleese..' I see nothing wrong with that. Women should not have to grovel for grocery money or any other money for that matter.
Is this thread a good example of RW/AM miscommunications heating things up unnecessarily?
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Well,your posts seem to be comical for me too-but I wont tell you anything what might insult you,ok? Because I suppose that the other opinions have a right to exist too-not only mine.
I understand your model of family when everyone has his own account. Its a western model and its very spreaded. I am sure that your wife is very strong one. But I am sure as well that she missed something very important in her life. To separate the accounts,seems to be like living together but not a marriage. IMHO. Woman have to be a woman.
I am afraid that you are wrong, because you still do not understand what I have said. You do seem to confuse things. The financial "rules" change dramatically after marriage. I was addressing what I thought they should be during the courtship phase of a relationship. Once we were married, my wife was an equal partner in our finances. In my mind {and in hers), there is a distinct difference in how financial things are handled when two people are dating, engaged and married. During the courtship phase, we both feel that the man should pay all related expenses for their time together. Gifts are certainly acceptable within reason. The financial responsibility of the man increases after engagement. He should additionally be responsible for any related expenses to their future life together. This of course would include any expenses related to her relocation to his home country. After marriage, the finances become a family issue in which both partners have an equal say in how the family's income is to be spent.
There is a distinct difference of financial responsibility in every level of the relationship in our minds. You seem to want it all up front and that doesn't seem morally correct to us. It isn't my wife that has missed something, it is you. And don't worry about my wife being a woman, she does quite well thank you.
KenC
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Hey I didn't pick apart every post here but it seems fiancee was simply stating that it's the man's job to be sensitive enough to make sure his wifes' needs are covered without requiring a 'preety pleese..' I see nothing wrong with that. Women should not have to grovel for grocery money or any other money for that matter.
Is this thread a good example of RW/AM miscommunications heating things up unnecessarily?
Someone just showed their level and I wont go to comment that...I am well-bred enough ;)
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No problem,Ken. I understand you quite well. It your right to find a woman without the financial problems. If she had probably you wouldnt choose her,I dont know. I wish you all the best and regards to your wife.
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This thread did started out innocent enough but as`Ms. Lauper' would would say, "true colors always shine through" . Dak, I'm glad you see it too. There's another saying, 'watch out for the wolf in sheeps clothing." So what is it that a female wolf is called? Hmm. I think one resident psychologist is enough here and even though I was not personally attacked, I prefer not to come here and be degraded for being a male. Oh the joy if only the "no comments" were true.
Someoen just showed their level,and I dont go to comment that. I am well-bred enough. So next time all insults I will simply ignore.
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Hey I didn't pick apart every post here but it seems fiancee was simply stating that it's the man's job to be sensitive enough to make sure his wifes' needs are covered without requiring a 'preety pleese..' I see nothing wrong with that. Women should not have to grovel for grocery money or any other money for that matter.
Is this thread a good example of RW/AM miscommunications heating things up unnecessarily?
BC, I'm so glad we have you here!
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To continue my thoughts...
Many men complain about feminists and that its impossible to get along with them. But in the same time,they looking for the same...A business-woman who can bring her own money and dont need any support. Where is a logic? If a woman is successful in the business,this means she has some points in her character which makes her a leader. Otherwise she wont survive in a business world. I dont believe she changes radically when she comes from her work at home. Also I dont believe she will be a good mother-no time for such things. She is not soft exactly,life taught her to be strong and tough. And now lets see what happens when a leader-man becoming to live with a such kind of woman? Thats why,I am sure,only some kind of men are looking for this type of women. Not everyone. Modificated men,I would say.
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Ohhh, I love a good argument!!
My 2.6 cents.
If I like a woman, and it makes ME feel good to buy her something because it makes HER feel good, then that is my call. Girl friend, wife, whatever.
If I am 'courting' (I know I am dating myself here) a woman, FSU or otherwise and I get the feeling she would benefit from my hard work a/k/a income, I offer my assistance. It is her call to refuse. It is called being a GENTLEMAN.
The amount is under my control, so I will not put myself in any kind of financial hardship, but I will do what I can, when I can and how I can.
This is not a case where she might need $200 shoes and only has $100, but where (true example this past winter) where her flat was so cold I sent money for an additional heater and then some for the extra electrical expense. All she said was that she was freezing. Nuff said as far as I was concerned.
I doubt if there is one man on this site who would not give his bride everything she needs and sometimes the things she wants. The same may hold true for a ligitimate fiancee. (income permitting)
A GF is a bit different since she may not be the one and who wants to go overboard on a maybe. But reread my first sentence.
Just listen to her words, read between the lines, do what your heart says, and your brain will rationalize it all later. And, in the worst case, if you do lose some bucks, I seriously doubt it was the first time and it will not be the last.
IMHO.
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Thank you very much-so pleasant to read the health-minded post :-*
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fiancee.
NP
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We have a saying in the US. If it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, its a duck.
Dak,
So you wear a "wife beater" shirt for your avatar?
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Viking,
You pretty well summed it up.
I like your example--she said she was freezing, so you stepped up and took care of it---without her asking directly.
I did the same for N. this past winter--Odessa had record cold.
I have no problem sending her money for documents and other visa related expenses--after all they are ALL because of me. I am not supporting her so that she can quit her job and lay on the beach at Arkadia until the interview; but I do send a little money unanounced--mad money for her to have.
I thought I would be slick and get around the WesternUnion fees by giving her an ATM card, but Odessa bankomats don't like my card :noidea:
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Viking,
Describes the scenario well.
Aikrob,
I'm trying Ikobo
http://www.ikobo.com/
to avoid the WU charges. Still in the process but should realize the functionality soon.
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Dak,
So you wear a "wife beater" shirt for your avatar?
Actually its a grey "muscle shirt" for working out in the gym. Wife beaters are white undershirts. You need to watch more episodes of "cops"
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If the dollars mean more for you than your women,how will she believe that u truly love her? She may not really need,but you have to show your readiness to open your purse for her. Any of us can loose all what he has. If your woman loves you,she wont leave you because of that and will support you. And if she needs a help today,you have to show to her that you are ready to give it.
This is a womans opinion. And dont tell me your wife is different.
Why does he HAVE to, if she DOESN'T need it? Could you explain a bit more on this one?
What sort of money are you expecting and for what needs if I may ask?
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Why does he HAVE to, if she DOESN'T need it? Could you explain a bit more on this one?
What sort of money are you expecting and for what needs if I may ask?
Oh you silly little woman! Her articulate arguement was so clear, logical and profound! He HAS to because if he doesnt hes not a man! And what sort of $? Why as much of it as possible of course! And what needs? Why all of them! He shouldnt even dare expect her to ask for things... just hand over his wallet like the walking bank account that he is! Damn it Orchid. These arguments have swayed me. I think I should just post my credit card number and people can take what they need. No need to tell me all... because that would be like asking... and I wouldnt want to humiliate anyone...
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Oh you silly little woman! Her articulate arguement was so clear, logical and profound! He HAS to because if he doesnt hes not a man!Â
I understood that much and everything seemed to be very clear but than all of sudden she’s got defensive and “no comment”, and finally came to conclusion, that she is bred better than others… May be we misunderstood something here? May be she is all white and fluffy? :-\
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Viking
Hear Hear Hear. Spot on excellent post.
You have to be a gentleman, even if she is just a friend and not your wife.
Without going to details I was happy to help a woman, who I met during my travels, to have an operation and probably saved her life. We did not match or click but we remained friends and speak often to each other. She never asked me for anything and when we last met and discovered she was sick I had forcibly to take her to hospital and she had the operation in a few days. Finally after the operation she admitted that she knew about her problem but had no money to pay for the operation. She would rather die than ask me for help. No I am not a fool as I was there all the time and the total costs peanuts in our money! I am sure everybody would have done the same in my position.
Daknak
Credit cards are to be used…..ha ha ha
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These arguments have swayed me. I think I should just post my credit card number and people can take what they need. No need to tell me all... because that would be like asking... and I wouldnt want to humiliate anyone...
Daknack,
... me love you long time if you give me your CC numbers and line of credit.... ;D
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catz... I dunno if I would bend over that far... ;D
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If fiancee’s English was a little better, she would be much better at explaining and proving her point… would be much nicer and more informative if you, guys, just ask her to explain what she meant instead of picking at her …
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Daknack,
 ... me love you long time if you give me your CC numbers and line of credit.... ;D
LOL
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catz... I dunno if I would bend over that far... ;D
Hey now BC,
Remember now, I'm a scammer and have no intention of ever meeting Daknack who I will whisper sweet nothings to via e-mail until I get the money in my grubby little paws. Then a terrible accident will befall my mother/sister/grandmother and I will have to say good bye to my prince and dissappear into the void... ::)
Ken
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If you are sending money to any other country, check out Moneygram. The fees for Western Union can be very much higher than Moneygram. Like several times as much, depending upon the amount you are sending.
I would agree than paying for the expenses for getting the visa would probably be necessay, unless the woman has a high paying job. You might also be justified to pay for English lessons--just make the arrangements with the teacher yourself and be sure she is getting the lessons.
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BC and
viking -
exactly what i was trying to convey,, although  poorly.
Thanks for presenting the far more USUAL case so well.
it's also what i thought *afiancee* was trying to say!!
NOT the extrapulated scenerios being presented as her point of view by others,
you guys seem great at taking words out of context ,
and assuming her attitude and thoughts,
then even PMing her crappy messages,, i thought we are all adults here, that could debate ideas by the actual content of someones complete post, Â and thoughts, without assumptions,,
or taking snipets of a post , tearing it apart to legitimize your own preconsceptions.
With a reasonable level of english , misunderstanding of the INTENT of the words is still common, and happens very often in these relationships,
this thread seems to be useful in showing THAT VERY THING ,
more than any other value..
so guys looking into this endeavor should go backand read each word very carefully.
It isentirely possible you guys took her wrong, -
or i may have!!
but to crucify a point of view, she may not even have, seems bizarre.
danack -
Glad someone pointed out the obvious LOL
You would have to admit that your avatars work out muscle T-  *could* be taken by the general public  to mean just as many incorrect assumptions , as afiancees avatar.Funny stuff man.
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I think fiancee can hold her own. Too bad she is spoken for as I think she has her head screwed on pretty good. Not 100%, but then who is? (fiancee, if you not heard this expression before it is a good thing. Means you are thinking clearly).
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I understood that much and everything seemed to be very clear but than all of sudden she’s got defensive and “no comment”, and finally came to conclusion, that she is bred better than others… May be we misunderstood something here? May be she is all white and fluffy? :-\
Wild Orchid :) Yes I am white and fluffy-literally. In russian,I would explain you much more,if you,an ex-fsu woman,dont understand what I mean. And yes-I am better than more,believe me ;) But I have doubts you ill agree this :) Anyway,this is your own problem,not mine.
I just want be sure,if something will happen to me,that he will help me-is that clear for you?
Or you always was an independent woman who will never accept any help from a man? I am sorry then.
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catzenmouse-LOL ;D
AJ-my sincere and deep respect!
viking-well,I understand ... :P
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danack -
Glad someone pointed out the obvious LOL
You would have to admit that your avatars work out muscle T-  *could* be taken by the general public  to mean just as many incorrect assumptions , as afiancees avatar.Funny stuff man.
Yes, But I am not extolling the virtues of slapping a woman around and claiming that she should be greatful to feel like a real woman.
Someone here though has such an avatar while putting forth the concept that men are wallets, should be greatful for the honor, and that it makes them real men.
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I understood that much and everything seemed to be very clear but than all of sudden she’s got defensive and “no comment”, and finally came to conclusion, that she is bred better than others… May be we misunderstood something here? May be she is all white and fluffy? :-\
My experiances with "No comment" is that it is a comment. A true no comment would be an absence of posting. Clearly, she continues to post. That rather leads to the conclusion that she has nothing to say on the issue rather than that she is above it.
But I might stop posting because I have so many offers of love and tenderness from my credit card proposal. I think I better go rent that tux! Hey she might be right! I opened my wallet and everyone is opening their hearts! Ah l'amor!
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Someone here though has such an avatar while putting forth the concept that men are wallets, should be greatful for the honor, and that it makes them real men
Thats how you took it..and your perception of her as a person....
are you positive that's what she is conveying?
as i see no complete post that states this in anyway.
everyone got all wacked about the statement "she shouldnt have to ask"
::)
but in what context is it given?
my wife was in a situation exactly like viking describes..
So she should have to ask for help with the heat bill?
she would rather die first! and would have!
She got by without my help before ,and would ciontinue to do so..
but as a engaged man , i should be able to pick up on that situation, and offer some assistance.
and YES my wife would have found it strange if her husband to be was so insensitive to her situation to not notice ,
or if noticing ,
failed to at least offer, and give her the chance of declining..
So no,¦nbsp; she shouldn't have to ask, i should be intelligent enough to notice.
and kind enough to offer to do something about it, or she can find a muvh more attentave and intelligent husband.LOL
in the FSU it's considered the mans job afterall,
to know such things and be able to do something about them.
That IS a very common mentality there.
get used to it.
if you find that offensive ,
or take it as a woman expecting a man to be a walking ATM,,
then ok,,you have every right to do so!
but that is how MANY RW will feel,
and they are raised in a culture that they expect a man to be-
intelligent enough to recognize situations and act upon them in a gentlemanly manner.
you are looking in the wrong part of the world if mere mention of this mindset offends you.
anyway i obviously got from *afiancees* posts something entirely differrent,
more along the lines of BC and viking..
maybe because i have been in a different situation.
That just shows how the exact same words can convey something entirely different to different people?
Throw in the mix of different base languages and different cultures....
and you have the basis for all those fundamental and crazy misunderstandings that many couples face..
something to think about,
(wether it is the case here or not)
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AJ,
That was how I took afiance's posts as well. I didn't see any issues until she got some attitude thrown at her. I've always enjoyed her posts here as it is from the mindset of the FSUW (as is Mischief's, Rose's, Elen's, MoscowFlower's, etc). The different ladies all have different opinions but they also have some similarities in how they view their situations and how they view the role of the man in their lives.
If a man is looking for a wallflower then he better run screaming away from FSUW as they are very strong individuals!
Ken
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Actually I think it was the women need to get $ from men to feel like a woman that got people riled up. I know thats whats got me riled up.
There isnt anyone here that is saying dont give things to your wife and leave them in the cold. There is NO ONE here that has suggested it and I resent being painted with that brush. But Im not going to send $ to a girlfriend. Hell I dont pass out money to my family without a damn good cause. Throwing $ around so a girlfriend feels like a woman is stupid and thinking it is OK only enable scammers to do what they do.
Ill conceed that possibly... her English is poor and she really doesnt understand how it looks to say something like that.
I am worried though Ken thinking on that. I am rather wall flowerish, demure, quiet, and I tend to vacilate. I might get walked all over! YIPES!
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Actually I think it was the women need to get $ from men to feel like a woman that got people riled up. I know thats whats got me riled up.
There isnt anyone here that is saying dont give things to your wife and leave them in the cold. There is NO ONE here that has suggested it and I resent being painted with that brush. But Im not going to send $ to a girlfriend. Hell I dont pass out money to my family without a damn good cause. Throwing $ around so a girlfriend feels like a woman is stupid and thinking it is OK only enable scammers to do what they do.
Ill conceed that possibly... her English is poor and she really doesnt understand how it looks to say something like that.
I am worried though Ken thinking on that. I am rather wall flowerish, demure, quiet, and I tend to vacilate. I might get walked all over! YIPES!
Daknack,
Yuppers, I have always pictured you as the shy self conscious type... ;D
She never said girlfriend. This is a girl who is engaged and is asking about this situation. Hell, I totally agree with you regarding girlfriends. And I would sooner give money to a bum than I would to everyone in my family except my mother. For her, I'll do anything I can. The rest of them can go take a flying XXXX at the moon!
Ken
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Wild Orchid :) Yes I am white and fluffy-literally. In russian,I would explain you much more,if you,an ex-fsu woman,dont understand what I mean. And yes-I am better than more,believe me ;) But I have doubts you ill agree this :) Anyway,this is your own problem,not mine.
(http://www.cosgan.de/images/midi/ekelig/a050.gif) What else can I do, if I'm not good enough for you? If your English was as good as you are may be there was no misunderstanding?
And ehhh... I don't have any problems, especially with you.
My husband was and is helping me when I need it; he is not a loser who has to prove his love with his money. You are looking for something different obviously. May be that's what "better" girls suppose to do, I don't know... (http://www.cosgan.de/images/midi/frech/e030.gif)
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Daknack,
Yuppers, I have always pictured you as the shy self conscious type... ;D
She never said girlfriend. This is a girl who is engaged and is asking about this situation. Hell, I totally agree with you regarding girlfriends. And I would sooner give money to a bum than I would to everyone in my family except my mother. For her, I'll do anything I can. The rest of them can go take a flying XXXX at the moon!
Ken
We got alot in common! After finals Im comming for that beer!
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We got alot in common! After finals Im comming for that beer!
Daknack,
When are finals over? We'll be in Russia from June 10th through the 26th. Let's plan a get together sometime in July. Maybe get SoC to tag along.
Ken
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I see Ken and AJ posting to defend sending money to their wives or fiancee's because of serious needs. And I see "a Fiancee" saying something completely different. She is saying that an AM should automatically begin sending a regular allowance to improve their RW's lifestyle. I agree with Ken & AJ that you help the ones you love if you can, but I disagree with "a Fiancee" that regular payment should be a given. Under her scenario, a man should be expected to pay for the friendship of a RW. I think this is wrong. I will even take it a step further too. Even if you are engaged, I do not think it is right for the woman to expect the man to put her on the payroll. As I said before, help her out with problems? No problem. But to give her a continuous flow of cash for extra unnecessary things? No way.
KenC
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Ken,
Reading fiancee's first post it clearly states:
So the question is. Did you help to your fiancee on a regular basis and how much did you send if yes.
Under these circumstances we are not talking GF material.
Surely the man should be a lot more sensitive to the needs of someone he will marry.
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(http://www.cosgan.de/images/midi/ekelig/a050.gif) What else can I do, if I'm not good enough for you? If your English was as good as you are may be there was no misunderstanding?
And ehhh... I don't have any problems, especially with you.
My husband was and is helping me when I need it; he is not a loser who has to prove his love with his money. You are looking for something different obviously. May be that's what "better" girls suppose to do, I don't know... (http://www.cosgan.de/images/midi/frech/e030.gif)
So thats the losers prove their love with money...he-he...I thought the losers are who doesnt have the money. I was mistaken I guess.
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And,a Wild Orchid, I dont understand why you r so irritated? You r not a man who needs to prove his love with the money. My english irritate you? So I never visited any classes-only myself! I think its enough good level for self-education.
So maybe you offended about the poor guys? Well :) I know,you wanted to say that not all fsu women are so bad as me. ;)
When I studied at medical university,I had a teacher. A woman in her 50ths. So I remember very good how she said: all what I have I got myself only. Noone never gave me anything...She sounded very regreting. She felt lonely,strong and successful,but lonely. She didnt expect anythign from anyone. She didnt look like a woman also-more like a man.
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I fall into the catagory of one must do what one feels is the right thing to do. Obviously each situation is going to be different for any couple, but letting her know that I am willing to step up to the plate before we are married and show her a variety of ways of taking care of her and her son has gone a long ways in relieving any doubts that she might have had of my ability to support them once they are here and we are married.
As we now await for the K-1 approval I send my fiancee' a small set amount each month (nothing extravagent by any stretch of the imagination ), but just enough to help with some of her expenses, especially since she has recently sold her own business in preperation for the move here to the US. And having been there several times with her already I know that she is putting that money to good and proper use.
As with any couple finances plays such an important part of any relationship, and covering all of the bases the best way that I can has proven to be of great value and comfort to us both.
Noleman
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We talked a great deal about this issue prior to her coming. We figured that she could continue working at her job and finish her thesis 6-8 months later OR I could send her less than a week's wages to get her here sooner. To me, it was a no brainer; however, it took me a month to convince my wife. (Score one for me! One of the few that I won!)
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I see no issue in sending the money to help. This not only helps her in everyday life but reaffirms his support of her in the US.
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I see no issue in sending the money to help. This not only helps her in everyday life but reaffirms his support of her in the US.
A mistake I made in the past. I sent money to help her out of a difficult situation. No harm, what was wrong in supporting her as I would do in the future for the rest of my life anyway ? I discovered later that is was one of the biggest mistakes I ever made.
By supporting her the man thinks he is giving her love. But for the woman money is not love. She will not love or respect him more for him sending it to her. And by sending the money, often small gifts and romantic things are not done because 'she is supported already'.
It creates a pattern of habit, and kills the suprise of romance. When this is left over an extended period of time (6 months to 1 year) there is a chance of her falling in love with someone else. Then the support money becomes a burden, as she feels guilty of telling because of using the money for a long time. It will come out ony when there is no other way.
Sending money is not bad, but ony for things which are necessary, and would be an extra burden on her. By sending money to help you risk to spoil the relationship.
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I see Ken and AJ posting to defend sending money to their wives or fiancee's because of serious needs. And I see "a Fiancee" saying something completely different. She is saying that an AM should automatically begin sending a regular allowance to improve their RW's lifestyle. I agree with Ken & AJ that you help the ones you love if you can, but I disagree with "a Fiancee" that regular payment should be a given. Under her scenario, a man should be expected to pay for the friendship of a RW. I think this is wrong. I will even take it a step further too. Even if you are engaged, I do not think it is right for the woman to expect the man to put her on the payroll. As I said before, help her out with problems? No problem. But to give her a continuous flow of cash for extra unnecessary things? No way.
KenC
Amen. In my limited 5 year experience with dating RW I have not sent money. With the exception of one emergency situation where my friend was stranded in NY with her daughter. She had all of her CC stolen and need money for hotel, food, and other things. Paid for it all. But not in the three years that we dated did I send a dime to help her with her expenses, nor did she ask.
Lady number two lived in Vlad-k. Not once in two years did she ask for or receive money from me. I sent only gifts and flowers, as any man would.
Now comes lady number three. After three months in camp she has not asked and I have not offered. She told me of her friend who married an American and how he used to send to her money. She could not understand it. I am sure she would not refuse my offer but why would I offer. My new friend has made it thus far in her life without me and my bank account. No reason for me to step in with my bank account in had.
I believe that most of these women who ask these guys for money are simply milking them because they can. Or because they had the plan to get money from the next schmoe that came into their life from the get go. It does not seem like a good habit to begin. The level of expection was not there to start with so why raise the bar without cause?
If she asks for the money that might just be your red flag. If you offer the money without her asking then you might just run the risk of insulting her. If she hints about the money but does not ask for it then you still might have a red flag. Obviously I am against sending money unless it is in the form of an occasional gift.
Peewee
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I fall into the catagory of one must do what one feels is the right thing to do. Obviously each situation is going to be different for any couple, but letting her know that I am willing to step up to the plate before we are married and show her a variety of ways of taking care of her and her son has gone a long ways in relieving any doubts that she might have had of my ability to support them once they are here and we are married.
As we now await for the K-1 approval I send my fiancee' a small set amount each month (nothing extravagent by any stretch of the imagination ), but just enough to help with some of her expenses, especially since she has recently sold her own business in preperation for the move here to the US. And having been there several times with her already I know that she is putting that money to good and proper use.
As with any couple finances plays such an important part of any relationship, and covering all of the bases the best way that I can has proven to be of great value and comfort to us both.
Noleman
Noleman,
When did you file your 129f?
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A mistake I made in the past. I sent money to help her out of a difficult situation. No harm, what was wrong in supporting her as I would do in the future for the rest of my life anyway ? I discovered later that is was one of the biggest mistakes I ever made.
By supporting her the man thinks he is giving her love. But for the woman money is not love. She will not love or respect him more for him sending it to her. And by sending the money, often small gifts and romantic things are not done because 'she is supported already'.
It creates a pattern of habit, and kills the suprise of romance. When this is left over an extended period of time (6 months to 1 year) there is a chance of her falling in love with someone else. Then the support money becomes a burden, as she feels guilty of telling because of using the money for a long time. It will come out ony when there is no other way.
Sending money is not bad, but ony for things which are necessary, and would be an extra burden on her. By sending money to help you risk to spoil the relationship.
My second amen of the day goes out to the Shadow Man. We all know that at some point in the relationship the subject of finances has to be broached. Lena and I had the discussion a couple of days ago. I liked what I heard her telling me about shopping. "Money saved by good shopping is like getting a second income." So Russian, so pragmatic. I like it!
Peewee
Peewee
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My second amen of the day goes out to the Shadow Man. We all know that at some point in the relationship the subject of finances has to be broached. Lena and I had the discussion a couple of days ago. I liked what I heard her telling me about shopping. "Money saved by good shopping is like getting a second income." So Russian, so pragmatic. I like it!
Peewee
Peewee
That can be just as messy and an excuse to spend more money. While its good to save $ on a needed buy, your throwing $ away if you buy something on sale that is not needed while saying that your actually saving. Never think of saving and spending as the same. They are not. Thinking that way puts you in the poor house. Rather thing of it as spending less. Its not as flashy and feel good a word as "saving" but its alot more honest and less self destructive.
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Ah, that is why the gals come back with a carload of goodies they never knew they needed until they saw it on sale and say "Oh, I saved a lot of money today"
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hehe Turbo..
Yeah.. need vs want is a tough boat to row..
I'm a minimalist and try to concentrate on needs, but I also realize that wants in life also have to be addressed.. just not all at one time.. please! ;D
That new tool always seems to be more 'needy' than a salad shooter!
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Shadow,
Money is not love, sorry you're confused.
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Pee Wee,
Many men send their fiancee's money and then proceed to successful marriages. So you say the failure of your past relationship is solely due to sending money? Also I notice that the well established women dont normally require any help. The younger women generally require help.
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Shadow,
Money is not love, sorry you're confused.
I was never confused about it. My mistake was not sending the money, but making her life so comfortable she had time to think about other things than being together. My biggest mistake was thinking it would be better to let her wait there than being in an uncomfortable situation with me. I never regretted sending her the money, and maintain friendship with her until today. This is where I am different from others, I was never buying her love.
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Pee Wee,
Many men send their fiancee's money and then proceed to successful marriages. So you say the failure of your past relationship is solely due to sending money? Also I notice that the well established women dont normally require any help. The younger women generally require help.
I am sure they do have successful marriages, engaged. I did not say that any of my relationships were failures. I also said that if the lady had made it to whatever age in life that she had achieved, prior to meeting her man, then why now does she all of a sudden need his money to survive on? It's suspect to me, that is all.
I also said that when I consider the 4 or 5 RW that I have dated that not once had I sent money to them, other than an occasional gift. None of them asked, with one exception where my friend Svetlana was stranded in NY with no money for food and hotel because her CC had been stolen. I flew to new york, got her a hotel for her and her daughter, paid for all of their food for three days, took the little one shopping for school clothes, and sent them on there merry way. Which clearly shows that I will send money if the need arises but not as a practice of habit.
Peewee
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peewee - i agree with your sentiments in general,,
but specific situations its not so black and white, there seems plenty of room for shades of gray?
especially in the situations many men face.
of the 5 , where you engaged to any of them?
where any of them truly struggling?
regardless of how she made it long before i came along,
i could see she was struggling, really barely getting by.
and too proud to ever ask anyone for anything.
but i had EYES, i could see her income verses the cost of managing to just get by.I knew her lifestyle well, its grey and hard.
could she continue in it? of course.
did i mind bringing a little color to that grey lifestyle?
not at all!!!!!!!!!
if in the worse case she had misused the situatioin,
i would consider it money EXTREEMLY well spent!
as you would then know her true character.
is that buying love?
IMHO shadow dint make any mistake,he found out valuble information.
do you REALLY feel that had he not helped her, and she had moved toi be with him, their story would have changed?
happily ever after right?
I do understand a person can go over board with sending money for extravagences,and vcreate false expectations.
in my mind
when things are within REASON,
money, or lack of it,
doesnt change a persons character,
it reveals it!
Being engaged with full intent to marry, i would find it ridiculas to not help given our specific situation.
i cared if the offer insulted her,but she could see it for what it was,
simple concern for someone you love, or get over it.
of course the subject was broached with tact.
If she had asked for assistence , I still would not have considered it a red flag.
SHE should consider it a red flag if i'm so concerned about money , that i would sit back and watch her struggle ,while being completely capable of making things so much better.
especially if using the thought of,
*well she made it fine before i came along*
you arnt rescuing anyone, but she sure as hell doesnt need a man in her life that doesnt care enough to help her when she is in obviuos need.
Thats many RW's pragmatisism.
Your *Johnson* isnt fundamentally any differnt than the next guys
she can date locally plenty of men that cant, or wont, help her in life.
What you have to offer is character, and it shows pretty poorly on it,
if you would sit back and watch someone languish while living the precieved good life.
you can call it buying love?
and if you are just sending money for no real reason, to spoil her ,
that may be the case..
but there are plenty of RW cases where the need would easily justify the action.
I enjoy spoiling my wife, to be honest, and wish i could do more of it.
because she has never taken it for granted , and deeply appreciates it.
If i was *greedy* and had sat back while watching her struggle to fund
not only her life , but the added expensies in preperation for relocating here.. her thoughts on this particular man, would be deeply effected, and justifiably so.
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peewee - i agree with your sentiments in general,,
but specific situations its not so black and white, there seems plenty of room for shades of gray?
especially in the situations many men face.
of the 5 , where you engaged to any of them?
where any of them truly struggling?
regardless of how she made it long before i came along,
i could see she was struggling, really barely getting by.
and too proud to ever ask anyone for anything.
but i had EYES, i could see her income verses the cost of managing to just get by.I knew her lifestyle well, its grey and hard.
could she continue in it? of course.
did i mind bringing a little color to that grey lifestyle?
not at all!!!!!!!!!
if in the worse case she had misused the situatioin,
i would consider it money EXTREEMLY well spent!
as you would then know her true character.
is that buying love?
IMHO shadow dint make any mistake,he found out valuble information.
do you REALLY feel that had he not helped her, and she had moved toi be with him, their story would have changed?
happily ever after right?
I do understand a person can go over board with sending money for extravagences,and vcreate false expectations.
in my mind
when things are within REASON,
money, or lack of it,
doesnt change a persons character,
it reveals it!
Being engaged with full intent to marry, i would find it ridiculas to not help given our specific situation.
i cared if the offer insulted her,but she could see it for what it was,
simple concern for someone you love, or get over it.
of course the subject was broached with tact.
If she had asked for assistence , I still would not have considered it a red flag.
SHE should consider it a red flag if i'm so concerned about money , that i would sit back and watch her struggle ,while being completely capable of making things so much better.
especially if using the thought of,
*well she made it fine before i came along*
you arnt rescuing anyone, but she sure as hell doesnt need a man in her life that doesnt care enough to help her when she is in obviuos need.
Thats many RW's pragmatisism.
Your *Johnson* isnt fundamentally any differnt than the next guys
she can date locally plenty of men that cant, or wont, help her in life.
What you have to offer is character, and it shows pretty poorly on it,
if you would sit back and watch someone languish while living the precieved good life.
you can call it buying love?
and if you are just sending money for no real reason, to spoil her ,
that may be the case..
but there are plenty of RW cases where the need would easily justify the action.
I enjoy spoiling my wife, to be honest, and wish i could do more of it.
because she has never taken it for granted , and deeply appreciates it.
If i was *greedy* and had sat back while watching her struggle to fund
not only her life , but the added expensies in preperation for relocating here.. her thoughts on this particular man, would be deeply effected, and justifiably so.
AJ!!! You must know me by now. I am either black or I'm white. It is either hot or it's not. Either you are in or you are out. I have never really been a "gray" guy...except for my hair, of late. I mean I can be flexible if I have to and even reasonable when I need to, but if I have a policy I stick to it.
Call it a flaw in my character yet it has worked for me over the years. Well at least I am still alive anyway. And too those that are anound me have come to realize it about me. This works very well for me in business situations, I don't flex much. As a result we get to the business at hand or we don't. That saves a lot of everyone's time. What is that saying, and I really hate it by the way, "Money talks and bull**** walks."
With regard to this posting I do believe that by me not offering to send her money that I avoid having to ever wonder if I have a woman who loves me for who I am or is she a woman that I bought and paid for? Just because I don't agree with the practice I can say "each to his own."
peewee
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it's nice to live in a black and white world..
and its good to see a man of conviction.
For myself, the more i see in the life,especially regarding human hardships, the larger the gray areas become.What i once firmly believed to be b/w ,
changes with seeing situations that alter my perception of how things were, are, or should be.
Since you were stateing you had never sent any of the RW you were involved with money:
you avoided my questions of wether you were engaged to any of them -
what this post started about..
or
if they were struggling - my personal gray area.. *shrugs*
so no, i dont really know i thing about you Peewee.. LOL
and nothing pertinant to this thread..
and dont know if you such a strong man of your convictions,
that if you were to by fate,
fall in love with a less well off RW,
that after engagement, you would rather watch your intended wife truly struggle, rather than risk "buying " her love?
afterall by the time you are engaged , it would hopefully already be known that you care about and love each other,and why.
I wouldnt think couples at that point would be pondering the 'whys"
they were involved with each other?
isnt that the crux of this whole matter?
if men KNEW for sure , they wouldnt sweat it?
so why propose, until sure its someone who shares your views on such important things as family finances?
hopefully you are asking somone to marry you, and share the rest of your lives together, that you can trust with such a simple thing as regular and exopected expences??
*buying* her love, would seem more of an issue during the meeting and dating period?
the thread starter was asking about engagement.. so all along that is where i was coming from.
I do believe that by me not offering to send her money that I avoid having to ever wonder if I have a woman who loves me for who I am or is she a woman that I bought and paid for?
well like i started,time frame is important ?
i thought we were all talking about after engagement.
(maybe you are)
If we are talking girlfriends , i would certainly agree about not supporting her in some lifestyle? you are looking for a wife, not a mistress or *kept " g/f.
if engaged and intending to marry..
and a man of any means, was to sit back and watched as somone he cared about struggled to scrap buy,without even an offer to assist,, wether it is accepted or not,
i would say shame on him. (but wish them both luck)
as far as buying a womans love, Luckily I dont have to worry about such, I dont have enough to *buy* even the poorest village girls *true love* ;)
most certainly not if she has any character or convictions of her own..
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it's nice to live in a black and white world..
and its good to see a man of conviction.
For myself, the more i see in the life,especially regarding human hardships, the larger the gray areas become.What i once firmly believed to be b/w ,
changes with seeing situations that alter my perception of how things were, are, or should be.
Since you were stateing you had never sent any of the RW you were involved with money:
you avoided my questions of wether you were engaged to any of them -
what this post started about..
or
if they were struggling - my personal gray area.. *shrugs*
so no, i dont really know i thing about you Peewee.. LOL
and nothing pertinant to this thread..
and dont know if you such a strong man of your convictions,
that if you were to by fate,
fall in love with a less well off RW,
that after engagement, you would rather watch your intended wife truly struggle, rather than risk "buying " her love?
afterall by the time you are engaged , it would hopefully already be known that you care about and love each other,and why.
I wouldnt think couples at that point would be pondering the 'whys"
they were involved with each other?
isnt that the crux of this whole matter?
if men KNEW for sure , they wouldnt sweat it?
so why propose, until sure its someone who shares your views on such important things as family finances?
hopefully you are asking somone to marry you, and share the rest of your lives together, that you can trust with such a simple thing as regular and exopected expences??
*buying* her love, would seem more of an issue during the meeting and dating period?
the thread starter was asking about engagement.. so all along that is where i was coming from.
well like i started,time frame is important ?
i thought we were all talking about after engagement.
(maybe you are)
If we are talking girlfriends , i would certainly agree about not supporting her in some lifestyle? you are looking for a wife, not a mistress or *kept " g/f.
if engaged and intending to marry..
and a man of any means, was to sit back and watched as somone he cared about struggled to scrap buy,without even an offer to assist,, wether it is accepted or not,
i would say shame on him. (but wish them both luck)
as far as buying a womans love, Luckily I dont have to worry about such, I dont have enough to *buy* even the poorest village girls *true love* ;)
most certainly not if she has any character or convictions of her own..
What I realize about this, AJ, is that all of the women that I have been involved with were established in their careers. Two doctors, one flight attendant, one government admistrator. All of them had secure jobs, some had a car, one had two cars, one had two homes, one vacationed throughout Europe for 2 months every year. In otherwords they were all women with some means. But that was a part of my selection process. I did not write if I suspected that they might not be well established ladies. That is why I did not get involved with sending any of them money. I do believe, however, that even if I had been engaged to any of them I still would have not sent money. Unless it were a emergency.
I have several times asked the question about whether or not some of these ladies, knowing full well they are going to relocate, have not socked some cash away in expectation of the move. My friend Julia did that. She had enough money saved for both her and her son to live on for two years and to pay her tuition to get her Master's Degree at a Boston college. I cannot see any reason I would send any of the women that I had mention, money. Especially the one who had enough cash to live on in the US for two years.
The other thing I think about is how do I know for sure that the woman that I am dating or engaged to does not have a few other guys on the hook who are also sending her money? It happens as we have so painfully read. One of the women that I had been dating was doing just that and she was the one with two cars and a high income! Good that I did not send the money to her and it is not hard to realize why she had such a good income and had two cars either. Perhaps one of the dangers to dating a woman that has so little is the same danger as dating one that has so much.
Peewee
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My friend Julia did that. She had enough money saved for both her and her son to live on for two years and to pay her tuition to get her Master's Degree at a Boston college. I cannot see any reason I would send any of the women that I had mention, money. Especially the one who had enough cash to live on in the US for two years.
obviuosly.
i wouldnt either,, my point was ,
if you were indeed engaged ,and if she was struggling ,
would you sit by and watch?
because that is far more common than the scenerio you are coming across?
what you are describing is not the average RW most guys will be engaged to ?
Most manage to survive,, or to do ok..?
but generally they cant fund relocation expenses!
(yes of course there are exceptions)
but most havnt the time or funds to have a good fluency in english..
(or italian, or german)
which is going to be fairly important in initial relocation troubles?
The other thing I think about is how do I know for sure that the woman that I am dating or engaged to does not have a few other guys on the hook who are also sending her money?
dating is one thing ,
engaged is entirely another..
hopefully you would know her , her family, and her situation well enough at the point of asking her to marry..
and trust her enough to not be that kind of person!!
IF you have been duped to the point you are engaged to a scammer..
then wether you send her money or not is hardly the pressing issue?
it seems a strange case to make for not sending money to your fiancee.. LOL
*umm well she MIGHT be a scammer..*
umm well if she is, and you asked her to marry you..
odds are things wont go well, and it will have very little to do with
if you do ,or dont, send money after engagement.. ;)
It happens as we have so painfully read. One of the women that I had been dating was doing just that and she was the one with two cars and a high income! Good that I did not send the money to her and it is not hard to realize why she had such a good income and had two cars either.
well you wernt engaged?
just dating..
it takes all kinds in this world, odds are you would have spotted this in any woman before proposing?
Perhaps one of the dangers to dating a woman that has so little is the same danger as dating one that has so much.
from your experience it certainly seems so?
by targeting *only* women of means, you run the risk of meeting successful scammers gifted at thier trade?
but it would seem a very good idea on the surface..
and i still think it would generally be far less risky ,
and certainly not a bad plan.
its also *safer* to target women who dont want to leave thier country..
but then that brings up another whole ball of wax doesnt it?
I still feel that time is the best ally and friend.
in either case time will generally reveal the truth of the situations?
Things general come to the surface given a bit of time?
I guess i was certainly assuming a man proposing, knows or at least thinks, and really BELIEVES, that his fiancee is of good character.
Holding back after engagement , (of course within reason)
for fear of spoiling her, or her being a scammer,
still smells of not really knowing or trusting her.. or her character.
To me thats odd for someone you have proposed to spend the rest of your days with.
and an odd justification for man to not help his fiancee ,
if she's in relative need
maybe SHE should be thinking *huge read flag* , *run forestkova run* ;D
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obviuosly.
i wouldnt either,, my point was ,
if you were indeed engaged ,and if she was struggling ,
would you sit by and watch?
Yes thats what I wonder about. Will you observe how she surviving? Wont you interfere?
Holding back after engagement , (of course within reason)
for fear of spoiling her, or her being a scammer,
still smells of not really knowing or trusting her.. or her character.
To me thats odd for someone you have proposed to spend the rest of your days with.
and an odd justification for man to not help his fiancee ,
if she's in relative need
maybe SHE should be thinking *huge read flag* , *run forestkova run* Grin
Excellent said...
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Yes thats what I wonder about. Will you observe how she surviving? Wont you interfere?
Excellent said...
AJ and Fiancee, you both almost sound like this will be an eventuallity rather then an occasional occurance. I do not think anyone would not help but they way I hear it is that it almost always happens. I see so many posts where guys will admit to sending the money. Why? Have that many guys chosen that many destitute women that the money sending is almost a foregone conclusion?
I would think in the rare instance where she might need some financial help then that is warranted but I sense that most of these guys do it because either she really did need it, a rare occurance, or because the are men and because men like to help it empowers them when the send the money, or she is flat out scamming him, or he is try to impress her. Any other reasons for him to send money? I'd surmise that if we eliminate the occasional real need reason then all else that remains falls into my premise that "If she has made it to this point in life without your financial help then why does she need it now...and from you?'
Peewee
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Ok Shadow, my confusion.
Pee Wee, basically a matter of trust. You have to go with your comfort level. Of course if you think every woman is a scammer then your loss. Some cynical women think every man is a player.
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I would think in the rare instance where she might need some financial help
peewee-
You are either the luckiest man to ever date RW and dated only ogilarchs ex's ..or you havnt dated many RW.
your Russian lady friend that had 2 years US salary saved up to relocate for example..
Peewee, stop and think about it.with some reality mixed in ok?
how many US citizens have jobs they can afford to put aside 2 years salary for relocation to anywhere?? what % of the population can do this?
and if they could, why would they want to relocate?
obviuosly thier career is pretty good for them,
right where they are??
now lets say this RW was from Moscow, where salaries are far far better than anywhere else in the FSU.. still they seldom match US salaries.
but ok ,some do match in top corprations and postitions.
but Moscow is also one of the most expensive cities to live in the world..
and how many, even with matching US salary structure can SAVE an additional two years salary?
you truly found a needle in the haystack,
or she had other means of income you probably dont want to delve into.
thats the reality.
Most RUSSIAN men wont be marrying Moscovitchkas with 2 years US salary saved up.
much fewer western men will find this anomoly!
The normal guy will be marrying an average salary woman.. the statistical odds are overwhelming,.
I would hope on your trips you saw the average salary and lifestyle..
people get by, but it is indeed difficult.
this whole Western man /RW situation would not even exist with out the economic inbalance? right?
if MOST RW could save up even 1 years US salary ,
then they wouldnt be listed with a marriage agency for a foriegn man...
yes most list for economic reasons..thats the truth..
you are big on googling..google the average salary in Russia or Ukraine,
and remember that it drops substantially outside the capitol cities of Moscow and Kiev..
sorry but yes, it is a forgione conclusion, that in the average case,,
a man engaed to an average salaried RW,
that it will be an incerdible financial hardshiop for her to afford the added expensies and time off of work, for travel to kiew, warsaw etc for visa purposes, for english lessons , or driving lessons,
ANY additional expence will be a hardship as her salary is strecthed to the maximun already.
you can let her fumble thru it, and not come here(USA) as prepared as she could be, because she couldnt afford the time off to study english etc..
and you were afraid she might scam you or not study..
or you can man up, stop worrying about being hurt or scammed
and recognize you ALREADY asked this woman to marry
you,
and recognize that it wouldnt be a rare occurance in her country to need financial assistence to make these visa plans, and be better prepared to adjust to life here.
if you know your case to be different,, and if you proposed you SHOULD know? then of course act accordingly..
My wife worked thru our engagement period, but after marriage,
(she was still living in Ukraine for about one year)
She got fired when her boss realized she would be leaving anyway..
now peewee that is far more common ,,
a far far more common occurance,,
than a RW having enough money saved up to relocate.
These are some very basics of dating a RW..
you guys need to get out more.lol
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Yes,a life is unpredictable and today you can have a well-paid job,and tomorrow you can loose it only because of a companys existing end.
Also,guys,I will tell a thing many of you wont like(prepared for tomatoes-need some to make a salad). Many girls know that you wont like her money asking or hinting,so they dont. But they would need it,if really. A girl may be very modest until she becomes a wife. Then you will find out an another side of her and will be disappointed. I dont believe any normal woman like a situation when she cant buy anything extra(of course,not extremely expensive things),something she likes very much. All women need this,believe me.So maybe she will be quite and patient a first time,but then her irritation by your attitude may cause the problems.
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Fiancee,
Yeah being a 'scrooge' seems to be much worse than hanging noodles.. ;D
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Excellent post AJ. Does seem to be a lot of twists and turns here. Might also be a turnip truck parked in the middle of the road around the next bend....
Ken (off to see if the noodles are soft enough to hang yet)
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Ken (off to see if the noodles are soft enough to hang yet)
'al dente' please..
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My wife had a good job in St Petersburg. So she never needed or asked for any financial help. Of course I paid for everything during my three visits. But she bought her own airline ticket to the US and brought a sizeable amount of money with her.
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I help the woman I'm dating only for all fees she would not have if we were not corresponding and traveling together.
This is not a strict rule : She stays during one month without a job and I helped her during this time. We have talken a lot about money and difference of revenues and she told me she does not want I help her. She is very proud regarding her ability to provide everything to her and her son alone and does not want to feel assisted.
But at the end, when I feel she is really struggling, I prefer to send her some money( 200 or 300$ max). I told her this is not pity or compassion, just the fact that I want no material factors that will make her worried.
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My wife had a good job in St Petersburg. So she never needed or asked for any financial help. Of course I paid for everything during my three visits. But she bought her own airline ticket to the US and brought a sizeable amount of money with her.
That is much like I was saying. One can find the ones that are not so desperate and in need of money. I agree that the extra expenses such as driving lessons, visa, and travel expenses. But not certainly day to day living expenses. Like I said, how was she living before you came along and if nothing else changes after you meet her then why are you suddenly compelled to send money.
I had understood, and correct me if I am wrong, that the tradtion of engagement is a Western idea and not an Eastern one. It does not seem like a necessary step in the progression of the relationship if the engagement is not a part of her culture.
PeeWee
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But at the end, when I feel she is really struggling, I prefer to send her some money( 200 or 300$ max). I told her this is not pity or compassion, just the fact that I want no material factors that will make her worried.
While this is coming from your basic feelings, make sure that she is not going to depend on your money. Watch for signs that may indicate she is extending the time until a final decision is made. Money can make it difficult for a woman to tell you she changed her mind.
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While this is coming from your basic feelings, make sure that she is not going to depend on your money. Watch for signs that may indicate she is extending the time until a final decision is made. Money can make it difficult for a woman to tell you she changed her mind.
Good point, Shadow Man. You might even be setting your self up for a con that would not have been there had you not stopped your self styled foreign aid program when it came time to wean her from cash cow's teat. So what did you set up this program to begin with? She was struggling. That's right and I would feel compeled to do the same but like those US citizens who have chosen the Welfare apple and unemployement, sometimes the insentive to regain employment is lost because the idea of free money overpowers one desire to work for it.
Peewee
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Completely OFF-TOPIC but...
but like those US citizens who have chosen the Welfare apple and unemployement, sometimes the insentive to regain employment is lost because the idea of free money overpowers one desire to work for it.
Me thinks you need to look into the welfare system a little more closely, because it ain't even close to the situation described further down the thread. In most states the welfare system is structured that even if one WANTED to get "off", in most cases it's virtually impossible, due to the fact that there is no grace period to allow one to get on their feet and have an actual shot at "making it" on their own.
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If a woman is successful in the business,this means she has some points in her character which makes her a leader. Otherwise she wont survive in a business world. I dont believe she changes radically when she comes from her work at home. Also I dont believe she will be a good mother-no time for such things. She is not soft exactly,life taught her to be strong and tough. And now lets see what happens when a leader-man becoming to live with a such kind of woman?
Great. More ridiculous generalizations. Why will someone with business experience not make a good mother?
I have no comment on what other people do or have done (or believe), but I will answer the question for myself.
My wife had a good job. She had started taking English lessons a few months before I started writing, and continued them during that time. She paid for all of her own internet access (we just found all of the used up internet cards - about 8000 rubles worth). She had enough money to give her mother a hundred dollars every month (which she still does).
I never sent her any money for expenses. In fact, I kept "borrowing" money from her every time I visited, as she bought all of the Russian domestic airline and train tickets in advance (I reimbursed her for those, and paid for all expenses during my visits). I just asked "do you have enough money to buy those tickets, or do you need me to send some?" and she answered that she had enough (same thing when she bought the ticket to come to the United States), so I accepted that and didn't think any more about it.
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Completely OFF-TOPIC but...Me thinks you need to look into the welfare system a little more closely, because it ain't even close to the situation described further down the thread. In most states the welfare system is structured that even if one WANTED to get "off", in most cases it's virtually impossible, due to the fact that there is no grace period to allow one to get on their feet and have an actual shot at "making it" on their own.
It's a screwed up system. My point is that if you begin giving anyone money what is their insentive to stop taking it? Be they a welfare recipient or your FSU lady.
Peewee
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Great. More ridiculous generalizations. Why will someone with business experience not make a good mother?
I have no comment on what other people do or have done (or believe), but I will answer the question for myself.
My wife had a good job. She had started taking English lessons a few months before I started writing, and continued them during that time. She paid for all of her own internet access (we just found all of the used up internet cards - about 8000 rubles worth). She had enough money to give her mother a hundred dollars every month (which she still does).
I never sent her any money for expenses. In fact, I kept "borrowing" money from her every time I visited, as she bought all of the Russian domestic airline and train tickets in advance (I reimbursed her for those, and paid for all expenses during my visits). I just asked "do you have enough money to buy those tickets, or do you need me to send some?" and she answered that she had enough (same thing when she bought the ticket to come to the United States), so I accepted that and didn't think any more about it.
Someone with business experience can and will make a good mother. Someone who is currently a businesswoman can't make a good mother. This because she has chosen to devote 40 to 50 hours of each of her weeks to be pursue her career and not mother her childern. She has shorted each child on the average of 2,100 hours each year of her much needed mothering. While she might be a good mother when she is a mother what she really is is a parttime mother at best.
Peewee
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Good point, Shadow Man. You might even be setting your self up for a con that would not have been there had you not stopped your self styled foreign aid program when it came time to wean her from cash cow's teat. So what did you set up this program to begin with? She was struggling. That's right and I would feel compeled to do the same but like those US citizens who have chosen the Welfare apple and unemployement, sometimes the insentive to regain employment is lost because the idea of free money overpowers one desire to work for it.
I do think Shadow has a good point.
However you can extrapulate that to any situation , any where?
Peewee- you are talking about the possibilty. of creating a situation of needing to ween a spouse off the *cash cows* teat?
or compare it to being trapped in the weldfare system..
common man..lol
I dont know about you , but in my experience,
i know a large percentage of women in marriages they would NOT
stay in, if not for the financial security..
I would say a decent percentage of American women remain married because of , fear of the unknown out on thier own,, or they perceived difficuloty of doing so,... or the fear of leaving a "comfort zone" ..
They just dont have the confidence to leave , or they would.
(yes many AW , love thier husbands, and are happily married)
but this other situation exists, and often..
i see it every day.dont you?
I will be at someones house today in EXACTLY that situation,
They were once very much in love,,
but now its a grey marriage neither really enjoys any longer,, plus he is a bit abusive.. (yes physically )
but she stays for fear of going it alone financially.(and perhaps emotionally) He is fairly well off..
isnt that the same thing you are worried about?
you REALLY think you will avoid it by wether you do or dont help a RW fiancee out before her arrival ?
lets say you dont help her at all, she had a GREAT job in Russia,
dint need a thing from you.
awesome.
once here, is she going to jump back in that great job? maybe yes maybe no.
in any case long term realistically in your life is she going to be the breadwinner in the family?
lets say in the first 4 years of marriage -
are you telling me she wont be financially dependent on you in some significant way ?
are not most wives? regardless of nationality?
( yes ,i know thousands of exceptions ! but whats the GENERALITY as thats all a forum can hope to address)
In light of the fact she will *generally* be financially dependent on her husband within thier marriage..
to extrapulate wether to help or not a woman you plan to marry,
off of the fear you will make her somehow finacially dependent, is a bit odd?
I just dont get it.. this logic.. lol
if you plan to marry a woman who is better off than you,, or can carry the finances just fine,, thats ok too?
and yea it happens ! but its not the RW guys will meet in general
i DO understand the cases where the woman has a great job and doesnt need any assistence.
as i said when marrying someone, surely you should know if she does or does not need such assistance , and for what.
as far as targeting better off, "less desparate women"
sure good plan.
in my case i married a RW that did not want to relocate at all.
you could always target wealthy Moscavitchkas ,
that dont want to leave Moscow, to increase your realitive safety or alleave your worry of being conned or used fiancially ?
but generally, youll have to expand your search far beyond the way most
couples meet ;)
This whole businesss and situation of WM/RW would not exist with out the economic desparity between the culture in the average case.
Why ignore that, within the context of the original question?
it wasnt asking should you help your fiancee in LA ,or Houston, thats your economic equal..or at least in decent finacial shape?
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I do think Shadow has a good point.
However you can extrapulate that to any situation , any where?
Peewee- you are talking about the possibilty. of creating a situation of needing to ween a spouse off the *cash cows* teat?
or compare it to being trapped in the weldfare system..
common man..lol
I dont know about you , but in my experience,
i know a large percentage of women in marriages they would NOT
stay in, if not for the financial security..
I would say a decent percentage of American women remain married because of , fear of the unknown out on thier own,, or they perceived difficuloty of doing so,... or the fear of leaving a "comfort zone" ..
They just dont have the confidence to leave , or they would.
(yes many AW , love thier husbands, and are happily married)
but this other situation exists, and often..
i see it every day.dont you?
I will be at someones house today in EXACTLY that situation,
They were once very much in love,,
but now its a grey marriage neither really enjoys any longer,, plus he is a bit abusive.. (yes physically )
but she stays for fear of going it alone financially.(and perhaps emotionally) He is fairly well off..
isnt that the same thing you are worried about?
you REALLY think you will avoid it by wether you do or dont help a RW fiancee out before her arrival ?
lets say you dont help her at all, she had a GREAT job in Russia,
dint need a thing from you.
awesome.
once here, is she going to jump back in that great job? maybe yes maybe no.
in any case long term realistically in your life is she going to be the breadwinner in the family?
lets say in the first 4 years of marriage -
are you telling me she wont be financially dependent on you in some significant way ?
are not most wives? regardless of nationality?
( yes ,i know thousands of exceptions ! but whats the GENERALITY as thats all a forum can hope to address)
In light of the fact she will *generally* be financially dependent on her husband within thier marriage..
to extrapulate wether to help or not a woman you plan to marry,
off of the fear you will make her somehow finacially dependent, is a bit odd?
I just dont get it.. this logic.. lol
if you plan to marry a woman who is better off than you,, or can carry the finances just fine,, thats ok too?
and yea it happens ! but its not the RW guys will meet in general
i DO understand the cases where the woman has a great job and doesnt need any assistence.
as i said when marrying someone, surely you should know if she does or does not need such assistance , and for what.
as far as targeting better off, "less desparate women"
sure good plan.
in my case i married a RW that did not want to relocate at all.
you could always target wealthy Moscavitchkas ,
that dont want to leave Moscow, to increase your realitive safety or alleave your worry of being conned or used fiancially ?
but generally, youll have to expand your search far beyond the way most
couples meet ;)
This whole businesss and situation of WM/RW would not exist with out the economic desparity between the culture in the average case.
Why ignore that, within the context of the original question?
it wasnt asking should you help your fiancee in LA ,or Houston, thats your economic equal..or at least in decent finacial shape?
True, women are by in large insecure creatures. I often tell little peewee that when it comes to security women are like monkeys. They have to know that they have a firm grap on one branch with one hand before they feel safe to let loose with the other. Men, on the other hand are leapers. They feel confident in letting go with one hand inorder to leep further and with more daring to graps the next branch.
I think way back to the original question was do we send money for financial help. Some do whether she needs it or not, some don't unless there is a crisis. Questions posed were; why send unless you have to? and When do you turn off the financial aid fawcett?
Peewee
Peewee
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During our few days together, she makes it clear that she does not want to have help. Before sending money to her, I told her that I do not expect nothing back and this happen two times only (for her passport and to help her the month she was without a job).
Why I do that ? If she is really struggling and honest (I get some good signs that was true when I was in Ukraine with her) , what I believe, I don't want her to be totally exhausted by work hours when we will be in vacation together. I don't want her to worry how she will do to pay her flat when she will be back to Ukraine. We will have 10 days together and each one needs to be available for the other one if we want to be able to know if there is something after our first impressions.
And in the worst case, if she is not honest, this is just a part of the story and I will learn from that. Season 2006 will be closed, I will take the time to learn russian better and will resume search activities in 2007. I'm not looking desesperately to find someone, I want to find the right one. I have my budget and will not spend more than planned.
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I agree that the extra expenses such as driving lessons, visa, and travel expenses. But not certainly day to day living expenses. Like I said, how was she living before you came along and if nothing else changes after you meet her then why are you suddenly compelled to send money.
PeeWee
I was asking the same question time after time, but nobody wants to answer.
I do understand DonaZ case, who spent a lot of time with his girlfriend and asked her to quit, because he wanted her to be with him bot working somewhere for peanuts.... But this sort of situation doesn't hapen too often. Why does she have to quit her job months and months before her departure to prepare herself for trip to another country? Pteparing how? Doing what?
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I will tell you how one man did it....
He wrote many emails to several women... then he visited. After the first visit he paid for her emails...
One lady stole his heart and after 3-4 more visits he asked her to marry him, and her sons opinion and position...(Basil says he fell in love with his dad first).He left an old lap top and had it connected to the internet...She had a telephone.
From that day .... Dick supported his new family, and asked her to stop work and prepare to come here. After months of frustration, and several more visits ... he was in Moscow for the interview and brought our new family home. They were married on Valentines day 2000.
At our first Thanksgiving family dinner, Basil said he was most Thankful for his dad ( he had never had one) and to be in America.
We expect to see this boy into MIT or at the least one of the Ivy League schools. He is awesome! :)
Both are now American citizens and Basil will not travel to Russia until he is 25 years old. His grandmother that co-raised him will come here.
NOW.. Dick had to attend business meeting 4 times a year in Denmark and the side trip was doable.
His position was that how would he answer if she someday ask... why he Had let them struggle, when he didn't need to.
And yes, they contribute to Svetas income....How could he not?
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Someone with business experience can and will make a good mother. Someone who is currently a businesswoman can't make a good mother. This because she has chosen to devote 40 to 50 hours of each of her weeks to be pursue her career and not mother her childern. She has shorted each child on the average of 2,100 hours each year of her much needed mothering. While she might be a good mother when she is a mother what she really is is a parttime mother at best.
The original quote concerned perceived personality differences between a businesswoman and a non-businesswoman.
What you said applies to any woman who works with children, whether she works as a businesswoman or say, a doctor.
Not the same thing, at all.
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The original quote concerned perceived personality differences between a businesswoman and a non-businesswoman.
What you said applies to any woman who works with children, whether she works as a businesswoman or say, a doctor.
Not the same thing, at all.
No. You misunderstood. I said that if a woman has her own childern and she is working, whether she is a business woman or a doctor or a teacher, it makes no difference, then it is hard for her to be a mother 24 7 because she is distracted for 1/3 of that time each day and she, as a result, is not with her childern, hence she is not being a mother to them.
Peewee
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I was asking the same question time after time, but nobody wants to answer.
I do understand DonaZ case, who spent a lot of time with his girlfriend and asked her to quit, because he wanted her to be with him bot working somewhere for peanuts.... But this sort of situation doesn't hapen too often. Why does she have to quit her job months and months before her departure to prepare herself for trip to another country? Pteparing how? Doing what?
Maybe it is a control and a security issue, WO. If a guy gets her dependant on his monthly dole then he feels more secure in the direction of her life (control) and as she becomes more dependant on him for his money then maybe he thinks she is less likely to find another man? I agree. Sometimes it might be necessary for him to send some money for an emergency...I did it, but the monthy allowance just because well then that I don't understand.
Peewee
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No. You misunderstood. I said that if a woman has her own childern and she is working, whether she is a business woman or a doctor or a teacher, it makes no difference, then it is hard for her to be a mother 24 7 because she is distracted for 1/3 of that time each day and she, as a result, is not with her childern, hence she is not being a mother to them. :o (mine WO)
Peewee
How long is woman expected to be a mother 24/7? Have you tried that?
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How long is woman expected to be a mother 24/7? Have you tried that?
"24/7" is a saying, WO. Just means that someone does whatever it is that they are doing all of the time. My idea of a mother is that she is a full time mother...not a part time mother or one who works 8 to 10 hours each day at a job and then comes home only to spend a couple of hours with her children and her husband, if he is lucky, before she herself goes to bed.
Peewee
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"24/7" is a saying, WO. Just means that someone does whatever it is that they are doing all of the time. My idea of a mother is that she is a full time mother...not a part time mother or one who works 8 to 10 hours each day at a job and then comes home only to spend a couple of hours with her children and her husband, if he is lucky, before she herself goes to bed.
Peewee
he-he :D My question wasn't about meaning of 24/7. I was asking if you are prepared to be 24/7 father year after year after year.... Or it is Ok when a child sees the father for 1 hour a day? ;)
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A lot of the time a child is growing up there may not be that much difference between being a 24/7 mother or father. Once they get into first grade they are off to school most of the day, off playing with friends some of the time they are home and often with boys may spend more time with their dad than their mother.
Granted the first 5 years of so is usually a much bigger burden on the mother.
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My point of view, which I inherited from my parents, is that when the children are at home, one of the parents should be.
As long as my capacity to earn money is higher than that of my wife, it is going to be her who is at home when the children are. If the children go to school or daycare, I have no objection to her working should she desire to work.
When I come home my job as father will be the main thing for me.
I know this is an uneven job, and I remeber the remarks my mother used to make to my father.
"I get to tell them what they should not do and when daddy arrives they are only happy to see him"
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he-he :D My question wasn't about meaning of 24/7. I was asking if you are prepared to be 24/7 father year after year after year.... Or it is Ok when a child sees the father for 1 hour a day? ;)
it is impossible for both parents to be available to their children 24/7. One of the two must be the hunter of food for the entire family. Humans were biologically designed to operate as a family unit with the father, the stronger of the two parents, to be the provider while the mother is the raiser of the childern. Because of something we call "material" gains...bigger and better home, nice cars, etc, and the amount of money, or credit, that one has to amass to gain these things, then the children are set aside in favor of the material gains. We now farm out kids out to day care and the school system so that both mother and father can work, to earn more money to buy more toys, and as a result the childs pseudo parents now become the day care worker, the school teacher, and stupid TV characters such as Barney and the Teletube Babies. The system is screwed and so are the kids of the future because they have no mother anymore.
Peewee
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And that is exactly why MEN always sat that one of the parents should stay at home with the kids, because they know it won’t be THEM. ;DYou try it first than debate what woman should and should not do. ::)
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Just a quick note ... as soon you become a father, you are 24/7 ... no choice. After this is from the responsability of each one to know what he wants to transmit to his children ...
For me, this is the responsability for each parent to rise his/her children and I will not give my place for an empire .
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Then how will you explain that?
whether she is a business woman or a doctor or a teacher, it makes no difference, then it is hard for her to be a mother 24/7
Is it call "male logic"? Man can be at work 10-12 hours a day and still be a father 24/7, at the same time woman can't do the same... I know many women who stay at home watching soap-operas, chatting with their girlfriends, having parties night after night... They don't work. Are they good mothers? They are home most of the time, 24/7 as you say, but does any mother spend so much time with her children. Is it possible at all. I think nor. So why it is considered to be bad for woman if she wants to work and something she enjoys?
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And that is exactly why MEN always sat that one of the parents should stay at home with the kids, because they know it won’t be THEM. ;DYou try it first than debate what woman should and should not do. ::)
Men know it won't be them because it is not supposed to be them who stay home with the kids. Men are better earners than women are. Women are better child raisers than men are. When was the last time you saw a man nursing a baby? There is not debate about it, WO, mothers mother in the saftey of the family nest while the father goes out, beats the hell out of himself all day working, then returns home with the food and the family security. Both parents play an equal and important part. I have no arguement with that.
Peewee
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Then how will you explain that?Is it call "male logic"? Man can be at work 10-12 hours a day and still be a father 24/7, at the same time woman can't do the same... I know many women who stay at home watching soap-operas, chatting with their girlfriends, having parties night after night... They don't work. Are they good mothers? They are home most of the time, 24/7 as you say, but does any mother spend so much time with her children. Is it possible at all. I think nor. So why it is considered to be bad for woman if she wants to work and something she enjoys?
WO, it is bad because, by design, the mother's responsiblily is first and foremost the care of her children. If she is working she is not caring for her childern. If she is not carring for her children she is not being a mother to them. She is being only a parttime mother to them. You need to know what your priorities are. Are they your children or your job and your income and all that it can buy? You cannot have both. That is not how it works because a person can only be in one place at one time.
Peewee
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Men know it won't be them because it is not supposed to be them who stay home with the kids.
Peewee
And why is that? I know some families where father is staying at home with kids. There are even male nannies. Life is moving forward for most for us, you know… ;)
My boss is preparing to be a stay-home-dad, his salary is bigger than some people have here, but it is very low compare with his wife’s salary.
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And why is that? I know some families where father is staying at home with kids. There are even male nannies. Life is moving forward for most for us, you know… ;)
My boss is preparing to be a stay-home-dad, his salary is bigger than some people have here, but it is very low compare with his wife’s salary.
WO...a father who stays at home and while the wife works is what is called a "pussy". Or a man whose will is controlled by a woman. No real man would allow that to happen. What does he do? Clean the house with a scarff on his head? Go shopping for groceries in his slippers? Make sure that the kids are napping when it comes time for his favorite daily dose of Jerry Springer?
On the other hand you got my attention when you said that her salary is larger than his. This makes sense to me. It is rare when a woman will make more than her man will but in somecases he can be a wuss and let her earn the bread. Fortuante for me, and I do think in the end she will earn more than I will, at least I will not have childern to tend to. No childern no need to stay home. Duel income and duel fun.
Peewee
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WO...a father who stays at home and while the wife works is what is called a "pussy". Or a man whose will is controlled by a woman. No real man would allow that to happen. What does he do? Clean the house with a scarff on his head? Go shopping for groceries in his slippers? Make sure that the kids are napping when it comes time for his favorite daily dose of Jerry Springer?
On the other hand you got my attention when you said that her salary is larger than his. This makes sense to me. It is rare when a woman will make more than her man will but in somecases he can be a wuss and let her earn the bread. Fortuante for me, and I do think in the end she will earn more than I will, at least I will not have childern to tend to. No childern no need to stay home. Duel income and duel fun.
Peewee
So you recon it is Ok let say for me to Clean the house with a scarf on his head? Go shopping for groceries in his slippers? Make sure that the kids are napping when it comes time for his favorite daily dose of Jerry Springer? even if I capable doing much more than just a houskeeping. But it is definitely not OK if I’m trying to picture you doing that. Are you trying to say that you are better than me? ;D
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WO...a father who stays at home and while the wife works is what is called a "pussy". Or a man whose will is controlled by a woman. No real man would allow that to happen.
Peewee
Very interesting to see prehistoric, backward looking macho men still exist in this day and age. These so called "real" men must be a real hit with the ladies in more ways than one.
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WO...a father who stays at home and while the wife works is what is called a "pussy". Or a man whose will is controlled by a woman. No real man would allow that to happen. What does he do? Clean the house with a scarff on his head? Go shopping for groceries in his slippers? Make sure that the kids are napping when it comes time for his favorite daily dose of Jerry Springer?
So, it is a control problem... You seem to be the type of man who don't seek a wife or partner but a domestic slave... Never forget that RW are real feminist, no like these in our "modern" western country... it is long time that RW are able to mix a good professional life and family life... If you wish a home slave, don't choice a RW, seek more a African or Asian women !
On the other hand you got my attention when you said that her salary is larger than his. This makes sense to me. It is rare when a woman will make more than her man will but in somecases he can be a wuss and let her earn the bread. Fortuante for me, and I do think in the end she will earn more than I will, at least I will not have childern to tend to. No childern no need to stay home. Duel income and duel fun.
Not so rare in ex-USSR... usually RW have more diploma that RM... they reach more high status that men who are mainly limited to manual work... Since you like use reference to physical performance, let say that women are the brain and men are the muscle in FSU... Beeing a brain pay more!
I don't know for USA but here in Belgium, for a same work, everybody have the same income... that you are colored or a woman change nothing... law protect the worker and punish boss who make segregation based on sex, color, nationality, etc...
No children, duel fun !!! Since you seem like basic biological function, here you contredict yourself... the goal of be a couple is to procreate... build the next generation... it is the natural order !
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No. You misunderstood. I said that if a woman has her own childern and she is working, whether she is a business woman or a doctor or a teacher, it makes no difference, then it is hard for her to be a mother 24 7 because she is distracted for 1/3 of that time each day and she, as a result, is not with her childern, hence she is not being a mother to them.
No you didn't. You said:
Someone who is currently a businesswoman can't make a good mother.
Nothing there mentions any othe type of work.
So let's go with your second (clarified) statement. I don't wish to make a comment on it. I merely wanted to make the point that what you said doesn't pertain to the original post at all (a statment that women in business make poor mothers due to their personality - not because they work). I disagree strongly with that.
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So you recon it is Ok let say for me to Clean the house with a scarf on his head? Go shopping for groceries in his slippers? Make sure that the kids are napping when it comes time for his favorite daily dose of Jerry Springer? even if I capable doing much more than just a houskeeping. But it is definitely not OK if I’m trying to picture you doing that. Are you trying to say that you are better than me? ;D
WO, now you are trying to read into my message. That is Russian. No where did I say or suggest that I was better than you. Here is what I mean; if I am the husband I won't do those things. Go back and start from the beginning. Mother stays home...what are her duties? Father earns the income and provides the family security...what are his duties? If the two parents are following the traditional family program then everyone's job is defined.
If the two switch roles. Now the father, a man who has willingly given his nads to his wife, will assume the role of homemaker and the woman, now a lady with all of the sex appeal of Hillary Clinton, will assume the role of breadwinner.
My original statement, going way back, was that a mother cannot be a mother if she is working 8 to 10 hours a day. She is not mothering, she is working. Someone else has been assigned the responsibility of raising the children. Father is working, mother is working, and the childern are being raised by a $5.00 an hour daycare worker. That was my point.
Peewee
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Very interesting to see prehistoric, backward looking macho men still exist in this day and age. These so called "real" men must be a real hit with the ladies in more ways than one.
The original thought was that a mother cannot be two things. If she is a mother then she is the family caregiver. If she is a career woman then she is not the family caregiver. She can't be both because she cannot be in two places at one time. So what you have conviently done is taken a statement out of context and twisted it to justify your own lack of manhood. Or I would assume that is why you reacted so negatively to my comment. Are you a stay at home mom, by chance? If not, why?
Peewee
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So, it is a control problem... You seem to be the type of man who don't seek a wife or partner but a domestic slave... Never forget that RW are real feminist, no like these in our "modern" western country... it is long time that RW are able to mix a good professional life and family life... If you wish a home slave, don't choice a RW, seek more a African or Asian women !
Not so rare in ex-USSR... usually RW have more diploma that RM... they reach more high status that men who are mainly limited to manual work... Since you like use reference to physical performance, let say that women are the brain and men are the muscle in FSU... Beeing a brain pay more!
I don't know for USA but here in Belgium, for a same work, everybody have the same income... that you are colored or a woman change nothing... law protect the worker and punish boss who make segregation based on sex, color, nationality, etc...
No children, duel fun !!! Since you seem like basic biological function, here you contredict yourself... the goal of be a couple is to procreate... build the next generation... it is the natural order !
Et tu, Bruno? You too have managed to take a comment and place it out of context. I made a statement that applies to a certain situation and not all situations. Further, these do not apply to me because I do not have children. I will not be living in a mother/father role relationship. Why would I be looking for a slave? I have no need for one. My idea, when I marry, is to have her explore and then do whatever it is that she wants to do. I am hoping that she wants to attend medical school. If so then I will help by providing the funds for the school, split the house work duties, or hire a maid, so that she can focus on her studies. None of this has to do with me and my situation. It has to do with an opinion of how things are or how they may be.
Peewee
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No you didn't. You said:
Nothing there mentions any othe type of work.
So let's go with your second (clarified) statement. I don't wish to make a comment on it. I merely wanted to make the point that what you said doesn't pertain to the original post at all (a statment that women in business make poor mothers due to their personality - not because they work). I disagree strongly with that.
For you, much clarification is needed as you completely missed the point.
Women in business do not make poor mothers because of their perosnality. They make poor mothers because the work...meaning that they cannot be in to places at one time. Got it? Seems with you I had better be sure to cross my "t" and dot my "i's". LOL!
Peewee
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I think what we have here is really a matter of semantics.....the real question is.....
When was the total commitment made?
For Dick, it was when he ask her to be his wife, and she said yes and he gave her the ring.
from that day he supported her and Basil.
He asked himself "once she is here and sees that I could have helped,and didn't.....how would she feel?"
They had been married a couple of years and I remarked that Irina was Conservative....He said she was downright frugal :) She saves enough from her houshold account to make the trip home every year. Now that Basil will not be returning to Russia each year ...Sveta will come here to visit more often.
They live well on his salary.....when he was married to his first wife (an executive assistant in a large corp.) they spent every penny of both salaries and had little to show for it.
Irina works part time at the Libary and takes caare of our two boys (hers and mine :) )vey well.
But each of you will have to TALK with your ladies and find the bst way for you.
PLEASE do not make her beg.................just to feel superior to her. It will not work and will end in resentment.
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Wise words :-) Mamma's are great!
Thank you Mamma D! :-)
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Wise words :-) Mamma's are great!
Thank you Mamma D! :-)
that is why they call her "mamma." Repeating, "Don't make her beg...just to feel superior to her." One of the thoughts that I had when I asked the question, why send money to her if she does not need it?
peewee
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WO, now you are trying to read into my message. That is Russian. No where did I say or suggest that I was better than you.
Peewee
Common, Peewee, it was a joke, may be the clumsy one. ;D
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Are you a stay at home mom, by chance? If not, why?
Peewee
I’m not the person who you addressed with your question but I’d like to answer. I’m not a stay at home mom and the mane reason for that - I don’t like it. I was at home with my son for 2 years, I couldn’t wait for the end of it. It is boring it is degrading. I don’t want to be a woman whose main goal is to drive her kids from school to soccer or gymnastic club and cook dinner at night. I want to have other goals as well. I want to learn things and make myself to move forward.
I said to you before that it was a joke. Now I’m not so sure. When I said that my boss is OK with being staying home dad, you were trying to belittle him. No real man would do that according to you. He is my boss, his income is higher than income of many men on this board, but it happened that his wife earns more. Is it her fault? Isn’t it wiser for this family if he’d stay at home and she’d go back to work? Why this sort of decision will make him a Pussy? Just read what you wrote about this possible situation. I definitely felt insulted. From your point of view all what woman can do is to clean the house, go for groceries almost in her night gown and watch stupid shows on TV. Is that all? Am I not allowed to be a professional like you?
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Maybe if we do a massive write in campaign we can get Wild Orchid hired to be PeeWee's boss. She needs a good executive position anyway.
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Maybe if we do a massive write in campaign we can get Wild Orchid hired to be PeeWee's boss. She needs a good executive position anyway.
Nah…. I don’t like too much of responsibilities. ;D
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Ah, you want something low key like being a stay at home mom.
It has been a long time since I read all the PR garbage from outfits like EC, AFA and the 10,000 more businesses trying to get rich of the MOB racket but don't they all say one of the great things about FSU women is they are so tradtional and thier big dream is of being good wives and mothers?
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Ah, you want something low key like being a stay at home mom.
It has been a long time since I read all the PR garbage from outfits like EC, AFA and the 10,000 more businesses trying to get rich of the MOB racket but don't they all say one of the great things about FSU women is they are so tradtional and thier big dream is of being good wives and mothers?
You confused me here. :-\ Just couple posts higher I said I don’t like to stay at home. AT ALL.
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I know, I was just joking, since that is supposidly low pressure, just ask anyone who has never done it.
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Maybe if we do a massive write in campaign we can get Wild Orchid hired to be PeeWee's boss. She needs a good executive position anyway.
Is there an opening for the the job of my boss? Why can't I apply for that job and be my boss? I would imagine that the job of Peewee's boss would pay big bucks.
Peewee
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Nah…. I don’t like too much of responsibilities. ;D
Aw come on! It would be a good job for you.
Peewee
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Post the address PeeWee and we will all get a letter off. Just remember if you get the job as your own boss you will really have to be on good behavior. Slack off at all and you will have to fire yourself and that would really be hard to live down.
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Post the address PeeWee and we will all get a letter off. Just remember if you get the job as your own boss you will really have to be on good behavior. Slack off at all and you will have to fire yourself and that would really be hard to live down.
I fired myself once before. I have hung up on myself. I have put myself on ignore on the forum. I do know that I would be a challenge for me to manage me but I think I can handle me pretty well.
So it sounds like if I can talk both myself and Wild Orchid into appliyng for the job of boss of me then it would be me choosing the best man or woman for the job.
Peewee
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Women are hard to figure aren't they. One page and they want to learn and grow and have challenging carrers and the next page they don't want any responsibilies. Now we know why the book Women are from Venus, Men are from Mars was written. And women wonder why we can't understand them.
Well we could try to have a campaign to have wild Orchid promoted to be her own boss but since her boss makes less than his wife, maybe we should campaign to get her the bosses wifes job. Then again, perhaps Wild Orchid makes more then her boss anyway. After all she has to do the work the boss only has to sit there and watch her work hard.
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Women are hard to figure aren't they. One page and they want to learn and grow and have challenging carrers and the next page they don't want any responsibilies.
Let me say I don’t like to be in charge of other people. I tried in 6-th grade, failed it completely, it was a total nightmare, never done it again. I am not cut out that way. But I do like to learn new stuff, I’ve never been anywhere longer than for 3 years and my jobs were not related to my education at all. It was hard and challenging and I was enjoying it. Now I’m in the industry slightly related to chemistry. Don’t understand sometimes what is said to me, but it doesn’t matter, it is a lot of fun.
My boss... you are almost right about him ;D, his wife is grate though. I think if they won't have a baby very soon they might relocate to US. Our previous GM went to Salt Lake.
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Hummm, you don't like to be in charge of other people. I am tired and ready to go to bed. I am afraid I might say something here I will regret later and I am really for the most part not talking about anything to do with sex or the like.
I will behave myself and just say I am not sure if you are married but being a rw if you are not married I am sure you will become an expert at being in charge of someone when you get married.
Most people seem to like to be in charge of other people but I think some just get a little scared off by it.
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I am married I have a son who is almost 18, I can be bossy at home, but we were talking about work, weren’t we?
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I am married I have a son who is almost 18, I can be bossy at home, but we were talking about work, weren’t we?
I thought that it was a given that RW are bossy at home. Are you here to tell me that they are not that way at work?
Peewee
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I thought that it was a given that RW are bossy at home. Are you here to tell me that they are not that way at work?
Peewee
Do I know all of them? I should put it as my signature - We are not the same! Do not generalize!
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I was asking the same question time after time, but nobody wants to answer.
I do understand DonaZ case, who spent a lot of time with his girlfriend and asked her to quit, because he wanted her to be with him bot working somewhere for peanuts.... But this sort of situation doesn't hapen too often. Why does she have to quit her job months and months before her departure to prepare herself for trip to another country? Pteparing how? Doing what?
Wild Orchid,
This was not the case with us but I have heard of many who want her to spend a great deal of time learning English (or what ever language they need to learn) and also to spend a lot of time with her family and friends.
Elena worked up until the week before she left because she wanted to and because they need her as long as she was able to.
Ken
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I paid for English lessons, paperwork charges, fees for professional
translations of docs, wedding rings, and various assorted things.
I never sent an allowance or money without a specific purpose.
I did send her as much as 50% more than she needed a few times
and she had not spent a single kopeck of the extra.
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My now wife came here on a Student Visa.
She paid for everything to get here and her school expenses while here.
But she saved a lot on housing and food, since she was living with me !!
And she didn't have to pay for sex either, just because I am generous (or not greedy in FSU talk).
Now I am charging her for housing, food and sex. Putting it on her accounts payable, to be paid later when she finishes her PhD.