Here There Be Tygers

[groovlstk]

Hi folks,

Remember in your old history books seeing maps of Africa used by old mariners, often the cartographers would scrawl "Here there be tygers" on dangerous regions? Well, please keep that in mind as you navigate these waters, there are a lot of sharks out there.

I've been (mostly) involved in the pursuit of a good woman from Eastern Europe off and on since 1999. I've met some lovely women and had some great experiences. Two years ago, I met the woman I thought was the One… yet recently that's changed and I'd like to share my experiences with folks here so that perhaps someone can learn from my mistakes.

The woman's name is Yana, she lives in Dnepropetrovsk. We began writing to each other in the Spring of 2003. She speaks fluent English, and I used to be a writer by trade so our exchanges were quite prolific. She had a computer at work and we wrote to each other every day, and talked on weekends. I was stunned at how much we had in common, we could talk for hours about literature, dance, cinema, pretty much anything. Three months into it we decided to meet for a vacation in Prague. We had the time of our lives, and when we parted I promised to visit her in Dnepropetrovsk as soon as I could arrange to take a week off from my job. I planned to meet her family and, if everything seemed jake, to propose to her.

Unfortunately, a few weeks after I returned home I lost my job, a victim of the precarious job market in NYC. I panicked and thought I'd lose her, but she promised to stick with me and wait until I was back on my feet. For the next 4 months, I worked 4 part-time jobs, I'd leave for work at 6 AM and on good days I'd return before midnight. Since I had no benefits and was paid through a temp agency for two of the jobs, I was making about 3/4 of what my last job as a technical project manager paid. I could get by fine, but forget about traveling to the Ukraine to see her.

My persistence paid off though, and this past August I was offered a great position with an entertainment company in Manhattan. As thrilled as I was with the offer, I was even more thrilled that I'd finally get to see my girlfriend again. Throughout all these months, we continued to email each other every day, send SMS text messages, and talk on the phone on weekends.

I'd never met a more soulful, passionate, and intelligent women. She was a professional gymnast when she was young, and then worked as a dancer for a decade. At 35, she was 6 years younger than I. As I walked the streets of NYC, I'd see beautiful American women and would inwardly laugh because not one of them could hold a candle to her in every aspect I could think of. I'd read the Russian Women discussion board and I'd shake my head at the scam reports, happy that I'd found someone who was decent and honest.

Yana never once asked me for anything, I had flowers delivered for special occasions, gifts on Christmas, and when I was hired full time back in August I sent her a special gift, a digital cam. Sometimes when we spoke she was away from her apartment so she had to use her cell phone, which I know must have cost her. Numerous times I offered to send her money, she always flatly refused.

Here's where things took a strange turn. I offered to come visit her over the Thanksgiving break, as I could wangle enough vacation days at my new job to spend most of a week with her. However, she claimed she had to travel to Germany during that time for her job, so we postponed until December. Again, just before I made plans, she claimed she had to travel. At this point I was becoming suspicious, but we continued to email each other every day and speak on weekends, and nothing seemed amiss.

Boy was I wrong.

In early January, when she was supposed to be in Germany, she wrote me a long letter about her experiences in Berlin. My suspicion got the better of me and I checked her IP address just for kicks and was shocked to discover that she was still in Dnepropetrovsk. I phoned her the next day and asked her why she was lying to me, and she hung up on me. She sent me an email that day asking me to "give her time," that she didn't want to lie to me anymore but she needed time to work through things. As angry as I was, I had built enough trust with her over the last two years to cut her a break. And, truth be told, I was in love with her and didn't want to lose her. For the next two weeks, I had flowers delivered to her on a daily basis.

So I gave her time… weeks, a month, and then I emailed her asking her to either tell me what was wrong or it was splitsville. She continued to ask for more time.

I realized shortly after this happened that whatever the problem was, it had to be the kind of problem that spells GOODBYE. So I decided to be proactive and, at the very least, hasten the inevitable so I could get on with my life.

I sent her emails using Read Notify, and was surprised to see that she was only checking her emails once per week, at most. I assumed that she lost her job.

I reviewed all the possibilities: 1) She had met another foreigner and had dumped me for him. Well, if she was romancing another man it would be pretty difficult to maintain the relationship since she was only checking her email once each week. 2) She had met a local man. I felt this hadn't happened because throughout the ordeal I'd had flowers delivered to her flat, once for 14 days straight. If she had a local BF, he'd be suspicious and angry. 3) She didn't love me. Well, I'd looked in her eyes when she said these words and I was sure she was sincere.

I heard nothing much outside of a few SMS messages for the next few weeks, all asking me to be patient. These weeks were particularly difficult for me, as I felt as if my world had turned upside down. I decided that in all likelihood I'd never see her again… So I made a very, very difficult decision that I'm not very proud of. Years earlier, I worked with a group of people who fought online scammers (419ers, eBay scammers, Romanian CC thieves). I had access to some tools that allowed me to crack free email accounts such as Yahoo. It's not as difficult as you might think. I wrestled with this for most of February. I had cracked hundreds, maybe even thousands of scammer accounts and warned off the victims but I'd never abused the ability I had by peeking into the accounts of innocent people. Further, I realized that this breach of trust would mean my relationship with Yana was over even if the impossible happened and I found out she had a legitimate reason for her behavior. Once trust is shattered, it can't be glued back together. So I looked at the money I'd invested in her, the two years I'd been faithful to her… I weighed everything and in the end decided to do what I had to do to find the truth.

I'll never forget the hour or so I spent combing through her email account. Yana has a close friend who married a French man, and they pour their hearts out to each other in their emails.  I used Babelfish as a translator, as well as a few Russian friends I had, and pieced together the truth. I found out that in the late Fall, she began having an affair with her sister's husband. And in December, her sister discovered what was going on. Yana works (or worked) at the same firm as her sister's husband, so her sister forbid her from returning to work, telling her she'd "throw acid in her face" if she ever went to the office. Everything now made sense: she couldn't email me because she had to walk to an internet café now--she no longer had access to a computer. She was able to accept all my flowers and such because she was meeting her sister's husband at a flat he'd rented for the sole purpose of cheating on his wife and daughter. The most difficult part to read was an email she sent her friend in early December. She claimed that Sergei (her paramour) had forced her to choose between her "American boyfriend" and him, and she chose him.

I suppose the harshest aspect is that she never planned to tell me the truth. She wanted to keep me on the hook for as long as possible in case things with Sergei didn't work out. In reading her exchanges with her friend, I saw how difficult the lives of these women were and the lengths they'll go to better their situation. Sure, she loved me on some level, but she'd do what she had to do to better herself and her future, regardless of what it cost me. Take note, men: I don't consider this woman to be a bad person, regardless of what she did to me and also to her sister's family, but at the core some women in difficult situations can make Donald Trump look like Mother Theresa in terms of protecting their interests.

I realize that she was not being insincere with me until December, but it's still very humbling. I'm 41 years old, in great physical shape, I have no problem dating local women but years ago I swore off NY women and their emotional problems and their "I'm such a bitch so get used to it" attitudes. I have a great job in one of the most competitive cities in the world. Hell, I watched several close friends die on 9/11, in addition to thousands more, and I had the balls to stay here because I love it and I refuse to be intimidated into running away from what I consider my home. But Jesus, this is mighty humbling.

Anyway, back in January when this first happened I booked a trip to Dnepropetrovsk to meet with her, and I'm still going to take the trip. I've been writing to several women I met through the Cindy Agency and I'm really looking forward to meeting them. Funny enough, I emailed my (ex) GF a month ago to tell her I was coming, and she never wrote back until this week. Now she wants to meet with me to talk about our relationship. Hah, as if… I'm going to see her just out of curiosity and I'm debating how best to break up with her.

I'll be in Dnepr from April 16 through 23, if anyone else will be there during this time I'll happily buy you a beer or three.

Mark

[Erwin]

Hi folks,

Remember in your old history books seeing maps of Africa used by old mariners, often the cartographers would scrawl "Here there be tygers" on dangerous regions? Well, please keep that in mind as you navigate these waters, there are a lot of sharks out there.

I've been (mostly) involved in the pursuit of a good woman from Eastern Europe off and on since 1999. I've met some lovely women and had some great experiences. Two years ago, I met the woman I thought was the One… yet recently that's changed and I'd like to share my experiences with folks here so that perhaps someone can learn from my mistakes.

The woman's name is Yana, she lives in Dnepropetrovsk. We began writing to each other in the Spring of 2003. She speaks fluent English, and I used to be a writer by trade so our exchanges were quite prolific. She had a computer at work and we wrote to each other every day, and talked on weekends. I was stunned at how much we had in common, we could talk for hours about literature, dance, cinema, pretty much anything. Three months into it we decided to meet for a vacation in Prague. We had the time of our lives, and when we parted I promised to visit her in Dnepropetrovsk as soon as I could arrange to take a week off from my job. I planned to meet her family and, if everything seemed jake, to propose to her.

Unfortunately, a few weeks after I returned home I lost my job, a victim of the precarious job market in NYC. I panicked and thought I'd lose her, but she promised to stick with me and wait until I was back on my feet. For the next 4 months, I worked 4 part-time jobs, I'd leave for work at 6 AM and on good days I'd return before midnight. Since I had no benefits and was paid through a temp agency for two of the jobs, I was making about 3/4 of what my last job as a technical project manager paid. I could get by fine, but forget about traveling to the Ukraine to see her.

My persistence paid off though, and this past August I was offered a great position with an entertainment company in Manhattan. As thrilled as I was with the offer, I was even more thrilled that I'd finally get to see my girlfriend again. Throughout all these months, we continued to email each other every day, send SMS text messages, and talk on the phone on weekends.

I'd never met a more soulful, passionate, and intelligent women. She was a professional gymnast when she was young, and then worked as a dancer for a decade. At 35, she was 6 years younger than I. As I walked the streets of NYC, I'd see beautiful American women and would inwardly laugh because not one of them could hold a candle to her in every aspect I could think of. I'd read the Russian Women discussion board and I'd shake my head at the scam reports, happy that I'd found someone who was decent and honest.

Yana never once asked me for anything, I had flowers delivered for special occasions, gifts on Christmas, and when I was hired full time back in August I sent her a special gift, a digital cam. Sometimes when we spoke she was away from her apartment so she had to use her cell phone, which I know must have cost her. Numerous times I offered to send her money, she always flatly refused.

Here's where things took a strange turn. I offered to come visit her over the Thanksgiving break, as I could wangle enough vacation days at my new job to spend most of a week with her. However, she claimed she had to travel to Germany during that time for her job, so we postponed until December. Again, just before I made plans, she claimed she had to travel. At this point I was becoming suspicious, but we continued to email each other every day and speak on weekends, and nothing seemed amiss.

Boy was I wrong.

In early January, when she was supposed to be in Germany, she wrote me a long letter about her experiences in Berlin. My suspicion got the better of me and I checked her IP address just for kicks and was shocked to discover that she was still in Dnepropetrovsk. I phoned her the next day and asked her why she was lying to me, and she hung up on me. She sent me an email that day asking me to "give her time," that she didn't want to lie to me anymore but she needed time to work through things. As angry as I was, I had built enough trust with her over the last two years to cut her a break. And, truth be told, I was in love with her and didn't want to lose her. For the next two weeks, I had flowers delivered to her on a daily basis.

So I gave her time… weeks, a month, and then I emailed her asking her to either tell me what was wrong or it was splitsville. She continued to ask for more time.

I realized shortly after this happened that whatever the problem was, it had to be the kind of problem that spells GOODBYE. So I decided to be proactive and, at the very least, hasten the inevitable so I could get on with my life.

I sent her emails using Read Notify, and was surprised to see that she was only checking her emails once per week, at most. I assumed that she lost her job.

I reviewed all the possibilities: 1) She had met another foreigner and had dumped me for him. Well, if she was romancing another man it would be pretty difficult to maintain the relationship since she was only checking her email once each week. 2) She had met a local man. I felt this hadn't happened because throughout the ordeal I'd had flowers delivered to her flat, once for 14 days straight. If she had a local BF, he'd be suspicious and angry. 3) She didn't love me. Well, I'd looked in her eyes when she said these words and I was sure she was sincere.

I heard nothing much outside of a few SMS messages for the next few weeks, all asking me to be patient. These weeks were particularly difficult for me, as I felt as if my world had turned upside down. I decided that in all likelihood I'd never see her again… So I made a very, very difficult decision that I'm not very proud of. Years earlier, I worked with a group of people who fought online scammers (419ers, eBay scammers, Romanian CC thieves). I had access to some tools that allowed me to crack free email accounts such as Yahoo. It's not as difficult as you might think. I wrestled with this for most of February. I had cracked hundreds, maybe even thousands of scammer accounts and warned off the victims but I'd never abused the ability I had by peeking into the accounts of innocent people. Further, I realized that this breach of trust would mean my relationship with Yana was over even if the impossible happened and I found out she had a legitimate reason for her behavior. Once trust is shattered, it can't be glued back together. So I looked at the money I'd invested in her, the two years I'd been faithful to her… I weighed everything and in the end decided to do what I had to do to find the truth.

I'll never forget the hour or so I spent combing through her email account. Yana has a close friend who married a French man, and they pour their hearts out to each other in their emails. I used Babelfish as a translator, as well as a few Russian friends I had, and pieced together the truth. I found out that in the late Fall, she began having an affair with her sister's husband. And in December, her sister discovered what was going on. Yana works (or worked) at the same firm as her sister's husband, so her sister forbid her from returning to work, telling her she'd "throw acid in her face" if she ever went to the office. Everything now made sense: she couldn't email me because she had to walk to an internet café now--she no longer had access to a computer. She was able to accept all my flowers and such because she was meeting her sister's husband at a flat he'd rented for the sole purpose of cheating on his wife and daughter. The most difficult part to read was an email she sent her friend in early December. She claimed that Sergei (her paramour) had forced her to choose between her "American boyfriend" and him, and she chose him.

I suppose the harshest aspect is that she never planned to tell me the truth. She wanted to keep me on the hook for as long as possible in case things with Sergei didn't work out. In reading her exchanges with her friend, I saw how difficult the lives of these women were and the lengths they'll go to better their situation. Sure, she loved me on some level, but she'd do what she had to do to better herself and her future, regardless of what it cost me. Take note, men: I don't consider this woman to be a bad person, regardless of what she did to me and also to her sister's family, but at the core some women in difficult situations can make Donald Trump look like Mother Theresa in terms of protecting their interests.

I realize that she was not being insincere with me until December, but it's still very humbling. I'm 41 years old, in great physical shape, I have no problem dating local women but years ago I swore off NY women and their emotional problems and their "I'm such a bitch so get used to it" attitudes. I have a great job in one of the most competitive cities in the world. Hell, I watched several close friends die on 9/11, in addition to thousands more, and I had the balls to stay here because I love it and I refuse to be intimidated into running away from what I consider my home. But Jesus, this is mighty humbling.

Anyway, back in January when this first happened I booked a trip to Dnepropetrovsk to meet with her, and I'm still going to take the trip. I've been writing to several women I met through the Cindy Agency and I'm really looking forward to meeting them. Funny enough, I emailed my (ex) GF a month ago to tell her I was coming, and she never wrote back until this week. Now she wants to meet with me to talk about our relationship. Hah, as if… I'm going to see her just out of curiosity and I'm debating how best to break up with her.

I'll be in Dnepr from April 16 through 23, if anyone else will be there during this time I'll happily buy you a beer or three.

Mark

Groovlstk,

I assume that your story is true and factual.  That being said, I would not even waste any time to see this Yana if I were you because she has not been truthfull with you. You know how her characters are questionable and how her intentions are not sincere and not honorable.

Groovlstk, you will have little time to spend while you are in Dnepr.  So, use it wisely to meet and fine a modest and kind woman who you can trust, respect and love and who can also trust, respect and love you as a person.  A woman who is a one woman-man.

Good luck to you!

Erwin

[groovlstk]

Thanks, Erwin. My story is 100% true, but God when I think about: what a soap opera!

I have no intention of continuing my relationship with Yana, at this point I'm simply curious--I feel like I'm observing a barracuda in it's natural environment from the safety of a submarine. I'm not a fan of intrigue and deception but it's empowering to know that I am now one doing the manipulating.

I'm not proud of the fact that I read her emails, but if I hadn't I would have wasted more months on this. In a way I feel sorry for her--she told me many times that she wanted children, now it looks like she's going to throw that all away just to spend the next few years as a mistress to some jerk, who as we all know will never leave his wife for her. She no longer has a relationship with the woman she was closest to, her sister. Her life was difficult before, and now it's a mess. But she has to live with the consequences of her actions...

[tim 360]

"There be Tygers"???  Well Lad,  there also be fools who can be just as dangerous to themselves as..."tygers".  Some things ya learns your lessons from and put behind you.  A lesson learned and paid for.  Next time,  don't be such a PT Barnum sucker.  2 years?  Some of these girls could charm the skin off a snake when it's coiled to strike.  And most could coax the $ from your wallet with ease.  Like Yellowstone,  " Don't feed the bears"!  And laddy,  you fed this one very well,  it seems.

[groovlstk]

Tim, my first compulsion was to fire back at you for your smarmy tone... but as much as I hate to admit it, I acted like a sucker and I deserve what happened. I'm not accustomed to eating humble pie, but I've choked down a rather large slice and I'm (hopefully) a wiser man for it.

One thing, though: just a few months ago, I looked at men who'd been suckered in this business with contempt... and thought they were promoting the prevailing stereotype of the typical man looking for a wife from the FSU--overweight, underconfident, and pretty much a loser. Needless to say, I'll have to think about that one, now  

I have my chance at revenge, although I'm not certain I'm wicked enough to carry through on it. Yana recently wrote her dear friend that she was going to meet me in April when I travel to Dnepr to "talk about our future." In the email, she went on and on about how terrified she was that her lover would find out about me, as she told him she'd dumped me months ago. She's planning to spend the night at my rented flat rather than invite me to hers and generally try to lay low all week while I'm there. I don't want to waste more than a few hours of my time with her, as I have 6 other women I'm planning to meet and I'm finished with her, so she won't have to worry too much.

However, I know her lover's email address. Wouldn't it be poetic justice if I were to snap some photos of us kissing, etc., and then forward them on to him when I arrive home, along with some of her recent emails to me extolling her undying love and desire to meet me again? I consider myself a decent person and I'd prefer not to stoop to her level, but man is it tempting... Hell, I could probably write a story about this for a magazine.

[acrzybear]

It does sound tempting to get payback, but I would think this girl has enough problems with her sister, family, being unemployed etc... for you to waste time and energy  getting back at her.  At lease you found out before the added expense of the K-1 process and marrying her,  She's made her bed and now she can lay in it.

[Photo Guy]

Groovlstk,
Get on with your life, as hard as that may be right now.
Don't stoop to her level. Avoid her. Avoid her city.
Finding a sweeter, more honest woman may be the cure. -doug

[Todd]

I tend to agree with Photo Guy.  It is time to move on.  If you DO meet with her, give her an opportunity to come clean and see what happens.  Ask questions, and try to understand her point of view better.  If she lies, see how she lies.  If you DO meet with her, find out what you did wrong and how you can do better next time.  Make sure that YOU benefit from the meeting.  If you don't think meeting her again will benefit you in the future, then DON'T meet.  Finally, don't underestimate the importance of finding closure.  If you need to meet with her to find closure, then that is more than enough.

[tim 360]

Smarmy?  Dunno.  When one makes an error the best thing is to admit it to oneself and to not assign blame to others.  To get up,  dust oneself off,  and have learned something from the experience.  And try not to make that mistake again.  I have done this many times myself.

As far as revenge?  I think it will have a hollow empty feeling.  No joy.  Probably just walking away and staying away from her is your best move.

 

[2tallbill]

Note: Groove has moved on from this forum and this life (RIP Groovy)
Everyone should read his trip reports. I found this old thread from 19 years ago.

I'm debating how best to break up with her.

You are broken up with her. There is no merit in meeting with her only demerits.
Don't recycle girls. 

Udachi everyone!

Bill

[olgac]

Wow! What a story!
I feel so bad for the women who throw away their lives and sometimes ability to have kids for some married man who will never leave his wife!
FSUW like to say that FSU men always cheat, but they obviously don't cheat alone, they are cheating with other FSUW.

I know many very sad stories from women who wasted years on a married man! Spent holidays alone while knowing he was with his family!
When we lived in California I had a divorced friend who married a very nice American man and had a son with him.
She fell in love with some married Russian guy living in California, and apparently se was so much in love she divorced her AM.
But of course the RM did not leave his family!

I think she is STILL with this russian guy! She is a very attractive woman in great shape and wiht a great job but for years already she is not dating!
If not for this Russian man obsession she would have for sure find a good husband even after her divorce!
Her American ex got re-married few years ago to an AW and he is pretty happy. He is very involved with their son.

I don't know how strong such love/obsession must be to allow Yourself to be in such situation for years!

[ML]

I don't recall reading this story back in the day.
I do remember Groove though.

As Olga pointed out . . . this same situation is probably going on between thousands of people all around the world.

Animal attraction can be very destructive.

Myself . . . more and more I sort of hate the fact that my need for pussy has controlled so much of my life.

Without that need and energy expended chasing such . . . maybe I would have a Nobel prize.

I envey those with low sex drive.

[2tallbill]

Wow! What a story!
I don't know how strong such love/obsession must be to allow Yourself to be in such situation for years!

The best way to get over a women is in the arms of another. A man/woman start thinking that this
one individual is better than any other but they are totally wrong. If that man/woman was something
special they would be reliable and not a cheater.

A boy or a girl needs to be taught early on that character is the most important trait to find in a friend or
a lover. I don't claim that I know how to teach this.

[ML]

A boy or a girl needs to be taught early on that character is the most important trait to find in a friend or a lover.

Big Bill has posted this often and I just skip over it.

But now that I am reflecting on it . . . I think he is probably right.

Both my former AW and my UW did/do have good character.

I don't think either one would ever even think about cheating on me.
But beyond that . . . they both would and have done examples of small things such as telling clerk that she rang up a price that was too low.

However, notice that the wording is  "most important trait."

There are other factors which are not 'traits.'

So we are still left with other factors:  height, weight, education, interests, English skills, sex drive, desire to work or not, existing children, desire to have children or not, etc., etc., etc.

But for 'traits' . . . I think Big Bill is correct.

- - - -  -

Notice that I changed the 'Subject' title from the original 'Here there be Tygers' because the new 'Subject' is more appropriate as a follow-on to Big Bill's posting that I am replying to.

Changing the 'Subject' is really hard to do, so I posted elsewhere how to accomplish it.

[krimster2]

i'll be honest and NOT give one of them politically correct answers, that sounds kinda GAY to me...

my right brain is yellin "Big tits"
while my left brain is whispering "sweet disposition"

so it's kinda like the dice in a game of "craps"
the sum of the amplitude of these two determines the outcome

and ya always gotta play to win