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Author Topic: Large age difference  (Read 146596 times)

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Offline KenC

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Large age difference
« Reply #575 on: December 16, 2005, 03:51:33 PM »
300 Spartans,

I'll tell you why I am not a hypocrite.  Even though my wife is stunning and young, I married her because of our love for each other.  She didn't need to be so young, because quite frankly, I see her youth as a negative and not a positive thing.  She didn't even have to be so beautiful, because I could easily be attracted to a woman of much less beauty than her.  But without our mutual love, I would have never married her as I was quite content as a single man.

KenC
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Offline andrewfi

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« Reply #576 on: December 16, 2005, 04:03:09 PM »
There is a difference. jb is pretty old, 12 years in terms of a proportionate difference is nothing, kinda like me marrying a 36 year old woman. Tigerpaws bought and paid for that which he wanted and yes, if we believe what he writes, it seems to work for him.

Ken is happy to suggest, quite correctly, that his model is not one to follow and he is right, I also guess that he could not think or act as TP has done.

Now, if you are aware of the dynamics, to buy a bride is fine, but unless you are fully aware of what you are doing then it is not for most people. Of course, if you do want to buy a bride, you do not need to buy one with a Russian accent, although some suggest that they come cheaper that way.

So, 300spartans, are you happy to have a wife bought and paid for? Is that what you wanted?

When 'aiming high' it really, really helps to know what the target is. What is your target?

It does not seem to me to be hypocritical to do take a course of action whilst not recommending it to others. I, for example, have a great lifestyle and life, but I would not recommend it to most people - I know full well they could not pull it off. But I am happy to tell anyone, often unasked, that I love my life and am very, very glad  made the choices I did. Does that make me a hypocrite? Of course not. The choices about what you do is yours and yours alone. That Ken does not recommend doing what he did does not lessen the value of his marriage, or the worth of his suggestion. That he is right can be seen too often for it to be gainsaid by a sensible person!

 

Offline anono

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« Reply #577 on: December 16, 2005, 04:09:25 PM »
well said ken

yuliya just happens to be 23 and i just happen to be 49. neither one of us set out for this to happen

Offline RacerX

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« Reply #578 on: December 16, 2005, 04:40:45 PM »
I was noticing that my local supermarket had started to color code perishable products they were selling at discount due to the limited shelf life and wondered if it might be applicable to RW/AM age differences, for example:

Color         Age Difference

Green        Less than 10 years        Safe for consumption              
Yellow        Less than 15 years        Warning: limited life, refrigerate immediately
Red            Less than 20 years        Warning: product may have spoiled, some will                                                                        be able to consume safety, others not
Black        25 or more years            Danger: product has spoiled, eat at your own risk

Now obviously if the product contains preservatives and/or is placed in a first-rate (ie, expensive) refrigerator the self life can be extended.

Offline TigerPaws

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« Reply #579 on: December 17, 2005, 08:37:30 AM »
Quote from: RacerX
I was noticing that my local supermarket had started to color code perishable products they were selling at discount due to the limited shelf life and wondered if it might be applicable to RW/AM age differences, for example:

Color         Age Difference

Green        Less than 10 years        Safe for consumption              
Yellow        Less than 15 years        Warning: limited life, refrigerate immediately
Red            Less than 20 years        Warning: product may have spoiled, some will                                                                        be able to consume safety, others not
Black        25 or more years            Danger: product has spoiled, eat at your own risk

Now obviously if the product contains preservatives and/or is placed in a first-rate (ie, expensive) refrigerator the self life can be extended.

RacerX,

 While this may work for you everyone is different, when I speak I try to do so in broad generalities except in my own case or for those I know very well. While I agree 25 years is pushing the limit, 20 years is still within the flight/love/life envelope as many have shown.

 As always I place the burden on the man as it is him who seeks out the lady not the other way around.

 

Offline BC

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« Reply #580 on: December 17, 2005, 09:04:34 AM »
Tiger,

Remember you are one of the 'few' and do not represent the majority.

Offline TigerPaws

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« Reply #581 on: December 17, 2005, 09:11:49 AM »
Quote from: BC
Tiger,

Remember you are one of the 'few' and do not represent the majority.

BC,

 I guess that all depends on your definition of what is a majority and what is a minority? In the circles we travel in a 15 to 20 year age difference is normal, with the RW couples we know it is the same 15 to 20 year difference, everything depends on your point of view.

 

Offline TigerPaws

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« Reply #582 on: December 17, 2005, 09:38:26 AM »
Quote from: KenC
300 Spartans,

I'll tell you why I am not a hypocrite.  Even though my wife is stunning and young, I married her because of our love for each other.  She didn't need to be so young, because quite frankly, I see her youth as a negative and not a positive thing.  She didn't even have to be so beautiful, because I could easily be attracted to a woman of much less beauty than her.  But without our mutual love, I would have never married her as I was quite content as a single man.

KenC

KenC,

 Love is a wonderful thing, it is also something that can learned over time, if two people are attracted to each other both physically and intellectually, if they have mutual respect and a willingness to make a relationship work then over time love can develop. Maybe it is not your (and others) belief and hope of what love is still if it works then what is the problem?

 I went looking for specifically a "traditional" Russian woman with a long family history from the interior of Russia not the big cities. I set rigid guidelines for what I was looking for, age range, height, weight, intelligence, attractiveness, being divorced at least 1 year and without a child. I intentionally narrowed my choices to keep myself focused on exactly what I was looking for, yet the numbers of available ladies was still vast.

 I met and spent time with over 32 women who fit within my criteria over a 2 year peroid, traveling to Russia at least 8 times for several weeks at a time within those 2 years before making my decision. Then I spent another year traveling back to Russia another 4 times for 2 to 3 weeks at a time, spending more time with the lady I had selected, plus 3 trips with her to the Caribbean and Paris. Now I understand not everyone has the time off or the resources to follow in my footsteps, still with planning and thought a man can have exactly what he wants, needs and desires in a lady, compromise in not necessary. 

 

Offline SgtFlame

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« Reply #583 on: December 17, 2005, 11:15:42 PM »
Wow, excellent discussions with great insight from all sides.  Apologies in advance for my apparent off-topic post... this thread is quite long and actually covers quite a number of topics.

It's sad that I'm probably going to ignore some of the advice given here, but only because my case is one of the infamous "but my case is different" cases.  :P  But, in my defense, a few of the pieces of advice that I'll be ignoring also have significant counterpoints.

I met a RW that lives in Latvia through an Internet chat room.  I wasn't really interested in finding a RW for dating, but after chatting with her for awhile and deciding that possibly this could turn into something more, I figured it would be a good idea to see the results of AM/RW marriages.  I stumbled across this site a few days ago and I've spent several hours digesting quite a bit of it and it's been an extremely valuable resource.

Mainly I was interested in seeing how well RW adjusted and if they could live healthy, happy lives here.  My primary concern is for the well-being of this lady.  I wouldn't want to pursue the relationship any further if there were significant odds that she would be miserable once she came to the US.

After reading quite a bit of this forum, I've decided that quite likely, assuming we both love each other as much as some of the other couples represented here, she could be very happy.

I'm planning on visiting her in April.  If things don't turn out, oh well, I get to see another country and I'll just spend the rest of my time enjoying the Riga nightlife.  I'd go sooner, but unavoidable circumstances prevent me from taking time off from work until then.

We've been e-mailing, chatting, SMS and talking on the phone since October.  I've heard several opinions on length of communications before actually meeting, and I truly believe that two months versus six months don't really make much difference.

I agree with the popular notion that you don't really know someone just by writing e-mails, letters, online chat, etc, but even during my first marriage, after dating for two years, I was still learning new things about her, even up until it ended.  It's sad, seeing someone "24/7" and not really knowing them completely after 10 years.

I believe a lot of this has to do with that elusive concept of "true love," which is something some but not all on this board believe.  People change over time.  People truly in love tend to change but follow the same path as their mate.  People not in love have a chance of growing further apart, and they often do.

Part of it must be a leap of faith and both party's attempt at making the marriage work... that's true of any marriage.  Taking more time getting to know your possible future mate could probably improve the odds, but the odds would not get anywhere near 100%, which is what we're all wanting.... or at least that's what I'm wanting, but possibly I'm way too analytical sometimes.

It's probably true that an AM/AW marriage is easier than an AM/RW marriage, but from my reading here it appears that the AM/RW marriages have a significantly better chance at survival... but I think this number is skewed because most if not all of the men here seem to have an above average understanding of the difficulties and solutions for a successful marriage.

As for our age difference, I am 37 and she is 21.  For me, that's actually been quite the normal age of my dating experience.  During the past five years I've dated 6 different people, five of which were 22 or younger... I've been blessed in that I look significantly younger than my actual age.  I'm unsure what attracts me to this specific age group... maybe I just choose the youngest and most beautiful, and since most of the women I date are one's I've met in drinking establishments... well, it stands to reason, no?

I suppose that would put me somewhere in the "red" zone, but again, I argue this is not food, but people with a variety of personalities, so such generalities should be taken with a grain of salt.

I've learned quite a bit about some of the problems with AM/RW marriages... I live in Manhattan, so the "driver's license" thing doesn't really matter much.... I've not owned nor driven a car for several years, so I seriously doubt if I married this lady she would require a driver's license either.  But possibly that would be a bad assumption if the marriage never worked out... I'll have to consider this problem.

Thanks to everyone who so far have participated in this thread as well the many other pertinent threads on this board.  Your insight has given me significant information on topics I seek but have had no experience.



Offline KenC

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« Reply #584 on: December 18, 2005, 06:27:21 AM »
[user=17]TigerPaws[/user] wrote:


KenC,

 Love is a wonderful thing, it is also something that can learned over time, if two people are attracted to each other both physically and intellectually, if they have mutual respect and a willingness to make a relationship work then over time love can develop. Maybe it is not your (and others) belief and hope of what love is still if it works then what is the problem?

 I went looking for specifically a "traditional" Russian woman with a long family history from the interior of Russia not the big cities. I set rigid guidelines for what I was looking for, age range, height, weight, intelligence, attractiveness, being divorced at least 1 year and without a child. I intentionally narrowed my choices to keep myself focused on exactly what I was looking for, yet the numbers of available ladies was still vast.

 I met and spent time with over 32 women who fit within my criteria over a 2 year peroid, traveling to Russia at least 8 times for several weeks at a time within those 2 years before making my decision. Then I spent another year traveling back to Russia another 4 times for 2 to 3 weeks at a time, spending more time with the lady I had selected, plus 3 trips with her to the Caribbean and Paris. Now I understand not everyone has the time off or the resources to follow in my footsteps, still with planning and thought a man can have exactly what he wants, needs and desires in a lady, compromise in not necessary. 

Tigerpaws,

I applaud your planning and your steadfast adherence to your course of action.  It all sounds like a calculated and well executed battle plan.  And best of all, it worked for you!  BRAVO!  Then on the other hand, a guy can phone a young hottie in Russia ,on a lark, without a plan, without any plans of marriage and arrive at exactly the same destination as you.  (Like I did)  What does this prove?  That there is no "set" method in this process.

I agree that love can be a slow evolving emotion that manifests itself over time between a couple sharing their life experiences with each other. All the "proof" you need that "it works" is your mutual happiness.

KenC

 

You are a den of vipers and thieves-Andrew Jackson on banks
Banking establishments are more dangerous than standing armies-Thomas Jefferson

Offline KenC

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« Reply #585 on: December 18, 2005, 06:50:00 AM »
SgtFlame,

Welcome to RWD!  Very nice second post too.  Don't worry too much about being slightly off topic on this thread because it has taken on it's own long and winding road.:?

Your age difference of 16 years is quite typical in this process and far from being a stretch from what you write.  But I did get a chuckle out of your "but I look much younger" statement.  That too is a very typical and unnecessary justification used in this process.:cool:

The danger of corresponding for too long is that there is a tendency for the relationship to become a fantasy for the two of you.  The two of you can imagine your relationship right into something that is not real or true.  It may be difficult for any real relationship to live up to the fantasy that can develop.  But your schedule is what it is and you will have to deal with it, just beware.

You wrote:
Quote

It's probably true that an AM/AW marriage is easier than an AM/RW marriage, but from my reading here it appears that the AM/RW marriages have a significantly better chance at survival... but I think this number is skewed because most if not all of the men here seem to have an above average understanding of the difficulties and solutions for a successful marriage.


Please understand that there is an unusually high number of successfully married guys on this forum.  I sincerely doubt that the percentages of successful RW/AM marriages is better than AW/AM marriages.  There are many many horror stories regarding crash & burns associated with this process.  This should be considered a difficult and high risk venture at all times.  Best of luck to you.

KenC
You are a den of vipers and thieves-Andrew Jackson on banks
Banking establishments are more dangerous than standing armies-Thomas Jefferson

Offline Bruno

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« Reply #586 on: December 18, 2005, 07:19:39 AM »
Quote from: KenC
That there is no "set" method in this process.

:clapping:

Like the proverb say :" All the roads lead to Rome"... the method used in the process have no importance, only the final goal who need to be reached is importance...

All poster here give advice or conseil about method who work for themself... each newbies need to use them in the way that past to him... copy and use the method of a other can lead to big mistake...

A forum like these allow newbies to take some part of advise and build his own personal tools.

Ken, you sentence up have earn a good place in the ten basic rule.

Offline jb

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« Reply #587 on: December 18, 2005, 08:54:46 AM »
Ken wrote:
[size="3"][size="2"]
Quote
Your age difference of 16 years is quite typical in this process and far from being a stretch from what you write.
[/size]
[/size][/b][size="2"]Welcome SgtFlame, Nice to see a new person jump right in with a serious post.

From what I've seen, age gaps of 12 to 16 years seems a norm in this business[/size][size="3"][size="2"],[/size][/size][size="3"][size="2"] I wouldn't worry too much about the age difference.

There are some other aspects in your case that make it special, your  lady is from a capitol city in an emerging EU country, not a backwater  village in Ukraine. This is good, if for no other reason, you won't  have the hassle of getting a visa to visit her, you can pretty much  come and go as you wish.

Odds are good she enjoys a pretty nice life in Riga, she is not  existing in the quiet desperation that is so commonly seen as the prime  motivator for some women seeking a foreign spouse, your relationship  should get plus points in that regard.  Anytime I see a man who is  playing the part of "Knight in Shining Armor",  being the generous rescuer, saving the damsel from a fate worse than  death, I almost weep.   This not being the case, there's a  good chance this lady is interested in you for all the right reasons.

I do see the delay in a face-to-face meeting as a negative, not because  it will spoil your chance for a happy life together, but for your sake,  please understand that in 6 months she could meet any number of other  men,  if she is all you say and think she is, you need to get on  the ball.  You said you live in NYC, cheap flights abound out of  NY to London, Amsterdam, Paris, maybe even Riga, she should also be  able to travel freely within the EU, perhaps a quick meeting somewhere  could be arranged for a 3 or 4 day weekend.  There are a great  many men here on this board who would kill for such ease in meeting the  love interest in their lives.  Imagine the poor dumb shmuck who  tries to court a woman from Vladivostok, RU and requires 3 days travel  time to get there. 

You have the ball in your court, go get 'em~!
[/size][/size]

Offline TigerPaws

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« Reply #588 on: December 18, 2005, 10:53:03 AM »
SgtFlame,

 While jb and I rarely agree, you should seriously consider heading over the pond within the next 90 days if you are really interested in meeting this girl. In todays MOB world writing for too long would be a mistake, clean up your affairs and make your reservations to meet this girl the sooner the better and have a back up plan just in case.
« Last Edit: December 18, 2005, 11:12:00 AM by TigerPaws »

Offline Photo Guy

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« Reply #589 on: December 18, 2005, 11:29:33 AM »
[size="3"]KenC wrote:
There are many many horror stories regarding crash & burns associated with this process. ([/size]
[size="3"]finding a wife in the FSU[/size][size="3"])  This should be considered a difficult and high risk venture at all times.  Best of luck to you.

[/size][size="3"][color="darkred"]'..luck'?  'high risk'? :shock::D Right.
To a degree, Life Is A Gamble. It's okay to acknowledge that reality and take it into consideration. Any worthwhile venture  or adventure requires risking something. If you take no risks, you'll lead a dull life, and if you take too many high-stake risks, you'd better be prepared for a huge loss or two. Most of us choose a middle ground, don't we? Yes, ...best of luck to you. 
[/color][/size]
[size="3"][color="darkred"]Live long and prosper. [/color]  
[/size]

Offline SgtFlame

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« Reply #590 on: December 18, 2005, 11:46:29 AM »
Point taken... and you are quite right.  I guess I'd been trying to plan a longer trip for our first meeting... and there's really no reason for that.

A "single date" trip, where I leave 6-7pm Friday evening would put me into Riga around 2pm on Saturday (Riga TZ) with an easy trip returning that Sunday.... assuming I could sleep on the plane to help reduce the effects of jet lag, I think it'd be perfect.... not to mention the fact that the air fare is $400 - $500  :shock:

Thanks for the advice, I'll definately be taking it.

Offline andrewfi

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« Reply #591 on: December 18, 2005, 11:48:46 AM »
Doug ~ No, life is not a gamble.

Taking risks is not gambling, but a true gambler does not take risks. He knows EXACTLY what he is doing and he knows EXACTLY what the payoff is. In life we do not know these things, but we can work to reduce the risks. You, Doug, have used these words before to justify a course of (in)action. The sensible person acts to reduce the risks, not to ignore them.


Sgt Flame ~ Good, get on the plane and then, if things go well, make concrete plans to return within a very short space of time. Tell your interlocutor, before you return to the US, that you are going to return. In fact, if you are well prepared, you will tell her when you are going to return BEFORE you get on the plane to go back home. There is no reason not to be able to do this.
« Last Edit: December 18, 2005, 11:52:00 AM by andrewfin »

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« Reply #592 on: December 18, 2005, 11:55:48 AM »
Photo,

Race drivers, astronauts, climbers, divers and many other take risks for pleasure and that adrenaline rush.. BUT NOT UNNECESSARY RISKS!!!!    

Life may be dull but you won't convince me that crossing streets without looking will make it more enjoyable and worthwhile...

Most of the crash & burns I've seen and heard of were usually folks throwing caution to the wind, right and left..

Offline KenC

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« Reply #593 on: December 18, 2005, 12:43:00 PM »
Photo,

There are calculated risks and there are foolish risks.  You fall into the second catagory.

KenC
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Offline Albert

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« Reply #594 on: December 18, 2005, 03:33:01 PM »
Something to check out here.  Several have told SgtFlame that his RW gals can easily get a visa to USA and that she can travel freely within Europe.  I am not sure this is true.  Here is my understanding . . . which may not be correct.

I was in the Baltics a few years back, but well after the Soviet breakup.  There was a dichotomy between the natives of those countries and those of Russian background.  The countries did not give automatic citizenship to those with a Russian background.  I remember one of the countries said they would not give auto citizenship unless persons ancestors were living in that country in something like before 1939 or some such.  It was a deliberate design to exclude Russians from auto citizenship.

Next, the countries instituted exams that needed to be taken and passed to get citizenship.  But, as I understood it, these exams were fairly difficult . . . . nothing like our simple exam for citizenship.

So, in summary, I believe there are many ethnic Russians living in the Baltics who do not have citizenship papers for those countries.  Thus, it seems logical that such persons will not get easy visas to USA, nor will they be able to travel freely within Western Europe.

Note:  I am not claiming this is true.  I just have put together a logical argument given some of the facts I knew a few years back.

Others probably have more up to date info on this topic.

Offline Bruno

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« Reply #595 on: December 18, 2005, 04:24:00 PM »
Albert,

all you write was maybe true before the European Communauty begin work together with Latvia...

Code: [Select]
28.09.2005

Almost 80% of people living in Latvia hold Latvian citizenship.

The Law on Citizenship was adopted in 1995. In elaborating its citizenship legislation, Latvia took into account recommendations from international human rights organisations such as the UN, the Council of Europe, and the OSCE. These organisations have acknowledged that Latvia's citizenship legislation corresponds to the norms of democracy and human rights. Several amendments to the Law have been made in consultation with experts from the OSCE and the Council of Europe.


Code: [Select]
The major part of all applicants for citizenship consists of Russian residents and forms 68.1%. Due to the successful naturalization process, in 2004 for the first time the citizens of Russian nationality outnumbered the non-citizens of Russian nationality. At the beginning of 2005, 53% or 346,746 individuals among the residents of Russian nationality in Latvia had obtained citizenship.

Code: [Select]
The effectiveness of the naturalisation process is confirmed by the continuously high pass rates achieved in naturalisation tests - more than 90% of applicants pass at first attempt.

The OSCE High Commissioner on National Minorities has stated that Latvia has fulfilled all his recommendations regarding citizenship. The European Union has welcomed the amendments made to the Law on Citizenship and the continuing process of naturalisation.


More info at http://www.am.gov.lv/en/policy/4641/4642/4651/

So, Albert, same if it is a short time that Latvia is part of Europa, they follow very good the given European Law over ethnic minority... if you read all at the link up, you will see that your information are not more update :cool:

Offline andrewfi

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« Reply #596 on: December 19, 2005, 12:18:25 PM »
80% of the people living in Latvia have citizenship, this means that of the population of 2.3 million 460,000 are not citizens.

Of the population of Latvia some 700,000 are of Russian, or other FSU, ethnic origin.

This means that some 70% of the 'Russian' population do not have Latvian citizenship. Russian refers, in general, to ALL from other FSU countries. The numbers quoted do not add up correctly, the only figure that can be taken at face value is the headline one of 'almost 80%', that which follows is not consistent with this figure.

It was necessary to massage the figures in order to allow the accession of latvia to the EU and thus headline figures such as 80% became important.

For the original poster not much of this matters. A visa to the US will be granted, or not, based not upon the passport type of the holder but upon their circumstances. Also, whilst visas have to be applied for by 'stateless persons' - non Latvians living permanently in latvia, for almost all countries of the EU, they are rarely refused but it is important to do the paperwork correctly.

Offline RacerX

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« Reply #597 on: December 20, 2005, 04:59:12 AM »
SgtFlame ~ I'm curious, is this girl Russian and have you asked her what her feelings are about Russians?

Having met a couple of Latvian girls the past months here, I was taken aback that both hated Russia, and refused to speak Russian to my RW wife.  I would say their attitude and general demenor were more akin to Polish girls.

I only mention this because the wealth of experience for guys on this board generally runs more towards RW/UW than the other FSU countries.

The other, we often call them "red flags," problem with the age difference is not about the gap - which is rather large considering her tender age, but more so that 21 is the normal marrying age for RW FIRST MARRIAGES.  RW tend to marry and divorce at early ages, so caveat emptor.

Offline 300spartans

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« Reply #598 on: December 20, 2005, 05:39:41 PM »
Andrewfin,

Your advice to married men would be funny, were you not so serious. You  are a self styled playboy without money or decent income. You do not  intend to ever marry an FSUW. You envy those than can afford to do so,  especially where a large age gap exists.

You missed my point to KenC. Which is the irony of his fierce defence  of over 30 years of age women, whilst marrying one much younger than  any that Tiger would even have been willing to meet.

Tiger, why did your women to meet have to be divorced? I married an  under 30 years female from a big city who had never been married  before.  I am not sure that remote area girls are as naieve and  inexperienced as you might have hoped. My guess is that the worse  circumstances the woman comes from, the greater the chance of her being  willing to take unethical or heartless actions later on. But with your  finances, you could marry a NYC gold digger and be OK methinks.

Oh and a point to all and sundry. Women on Russian language internet  meeting sites (i.e. non agency), living in both Russia and the West,  generally want to meet men in their own age group, maybe ten or fifteen  years older - or younger. My wife is perhaps unusual in that her  previous serious FSU boyfriend, with their relationship lasting several  years, is many more years older than I am. There are a small minority  of women that prefer an older man. So if a man insists on selecting  much younger women, try and find one of these.  jb is right  though, there may be some baggage issues. Yet many or most women in the  FSU would be considered manic depressive by western standards, and not  just the young ones.  Yes the FSU men are crazy too.

To all trusting optimistic newbies, leave all that trust behind if you  go the FSU. You will learn to mistrust, frown at people and be cautious  all over again, or maybe for the first time in your life. Pessimism and  a gloomy outlook on life is no handicap for the WM seeking a bride.  American positivity seems ridiculous in the FSU.

Lastly, I found that for whatever reason that women aged 27 to 29 often  liked me more than women in the 30 years and up bracket. At first, I  met only women aged about 33 and upwards. So like KenC I found that  personal mutual attraction was more important than the age issue.

Offline KenC

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« Reply #599 on: December 20, 2005, 06:29:27 PM »
300Spartans,
Quote

You missed my point to KenC. Which is the irony of his fierce defence of over 30 years of age women, whilst marrying one much younger than any that Tiger would even have been willing to meet.


Just FYI, I did not miss the irony of my posts in defence of women over 30.:toocool:

KenC
You are a den of vipers and thieves-Andrew Jackson on banks
Banking establishments are more dangerous than standing armies-Thomas Jefferson

 

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