Keep her or leave her?

[cranehand]

Did I miss something?  Who was judging character?   If anything he went on the defensive when kuna laid it down for him.  English or not, fact is 4 months has gone and he is here asking if She is real or not. My now wife would thumb through her Russian English dictionary whilst I would cut and paste Russian into a translator all the while in Skype for up to six hours at a time.   Akward? Yes of course but thats what made it fun and interesting.
Bada is gaining the experience of the group collectively.
VO or VM however he wishes to do it but right now he is literally running blind. 
He says he is not living in a fantasy but I beg to differ. Fantasy is all he has right now.

[Sophocles]

Overall I do get the context of her message but it is hard for me to find anything new or exciting in what she writes. It´s always the same ¨look forward to meet with you in person¨and ¨let´s be sincere about each other¨...I just don´t find any passion in what she writes. Something is missing... All she writes about is going to visit her grandparents at theĦr village on weekends...and hating to go back to work on Mondays.  She doesn´t ask any questions about my life or how is it where I live or anything like that

Maybe she corresponds with several or many other men and sends more or less the same letter to everybody. That could explain the monotony and dullness of the letters. But the pictures are still beautiful and speak for themselves.

Just a thought.

[Badabing]

I'm only writing to help you - because you need help.

I appreciate your help Kuna, I really do. And I appreciate everyone else's contribution here. You guys have really given me a different perspective that I needed really bad. Thanks !

[Daveman]

I appreciate your help Kuna, I really do. And I appreciate everyone else's contribution here. You guys have really given me a different perspective that I needed really bad. Thanks !

Heya Badabing,


Sometimes it takes a little jolt to snap the illusion and self delusion.  You posed your question(s) because you felt, inside yourself, that something is wrong with this situation.  Perhaps you wished for someone to tell you all is well so that your faith in the babe in the photos with which (note which) you were infatuated would be a little less shaken.


The rhetorical questions we each must ask ourselves sometimes is "what the hell is bothering me and why?"  Get a grip on that and Kuna's (smack upside the head approach) messages will make more sense. 


Have you wasted four months of your life? maybe yes, maybe no.  Have you gained something through the experience? 


Here's the straight deal as I see it... if you want to give this woman a shot, then you need to take the reins and lead the situation where you want it to go.  She will respond to your action.  Her response may not be what you want, but she'll damn sure respond. That's what they do.  Positive, negative, indifferent --  you'll get a clearer picture.


Others have said it -- she's a pen pal, a phantom(ess) of your dreams, a projection of the fantasies infesting your mind... any trip you make is nothing more than a long commute on an expensive first date where all the months of communication, expectation, whatever, can evaporate into nothingness in a matter of minutes. 


I agree with those who have stated that you are responsible for the situation ... Good, Bad, or Ugly (damn, we need a theme music option).  You are always responsible for any and every situation in which you find yourself.  So eat a can o' spinach.


The language barrier is not your primary problem, IMO, the LackOLuster seems to be.  So, do something about that yourself.


At any rate, welcome aboard..

[Vaughn]

I offered her to pay for her taxi from Gomel to Minsk (when she comes to meet me at the airport) and she said she would pay for it.

Badabing, I've read through this entire thread just now - and noticed this little "taxi" thing got by unnoticed. It's a 185 mile cab ride - was it she who first mentioned taking the taxi? Or was it simply an assumption on your part? There is a train that runs regularly between the two cities. One member here, Viking, has made that run several times. His wife hails from Gomel. Nobody from Gomel takes a taxi to Minsk unless they are of extremely wealthy means or fighting for life.
 
Her timidity doesn't necessarily bother me. The fact that she hasn't picked up the "trubka" to say hello when you've called is troubling. I agree that the three-way call cannot happen soon enough. Hop on it now.
 
In the future, regarding anything at all, refrain from making promises that you will likely break later on, for example, promising to arrive in late June and then changing your mind as uncertainty manifests itself in your own mind. In general, ladies will not appreciate a man not of his word. Start applying for the visa soon, it will be valid for a number of months (is it still six?) and you will avoid last-minute rush charges.
Edit: My bad - you must specify intended dates of travel and there is no open-ended timeframe as with a tourist style visa to the USA. Still, planning ahead will save one considerable expenses that could be applied elsewhere for the journey.

Letters. In my opinion only, write to her in English - and request that she reply in Russian. Translating for yourselves will not only teach you a little bit of the language even if only by osmosis, you both will benefit by a truer understanding of the other's communication. Secondly, it might set the two of you more at ease to really say what's on your minds, and not have to worry how to convert it to the foreign tongue.

[David1963]

I appreciate your help Kuna, I really do. And I appreciate everyone else's contribution here. You guys have really given me a different perspective that I needed really bad. Thanks !

I gather you are talking with ONE lady and thinking about a trip to visit her.  Why have you not written or talked with others? 
I would recomend talking/writing many more, when you connect with the right woman, you won't have to ask about keping or leaving her, you will be planning your visit to meet her.
 

[newjason]

In the future, regarding anything at all, refrain from making promises that you will likely break later on, for example, promising to arrive in late June and then changing your mind as uncertainty manifests itself in your own mind. In general, ladies will not appreciate a man not of his word.

This is one ( if not the ) most important things you will need to apply to life.
Making a promise and then breaking it, be it by design or through circumstances beyond your control is a fatal mistake. I found this out first hand and women do not forget promises, ever.

Very god advice
Thank You Vaughn

[Faux Pas]

This is one ( if not the ) most important things you will need to apply to life.
Making a promise and then breaking it, be it by design or through circumstances beyond your control is a fatal mistake. I found this out first hand and women do not forget promises, ever.

Very god advice
Thank You Vaughn

I really don't know if it's a FSUW thing or just a thing with my wife but, broken promises don't fly no matter how seemingly little or insignificant. It is much easier to not promise than to not follow through on a promise. Something as little as "I promise I'll trim those hedges" or as big as "we'll go on that trip this weekend" generally have the same weight with her. 

[Muzh]

I really don't know if it's a FSUW thing or just a thing with my wife but, broken promises don't fly no matter how seemingly little or insignificant. It is much easier to not promise than to not follow through on a promise. Something as little as "I promise I'll trim those hedges" or as big as "we'll go on that trip this weekend" generally have the same weight with her. 

LMAO
 
FP, your comment just stirred my memory banks and that's why I'm laughing.
 
Years ago I was visiting the outlaws with the wife. I remember sitting in the kitchen and my wife and her sister were talking while the radio was on. Suddenly they went mum and listen to whoever was talking on the radio and then they burst in laughter.
 
Since I don't know Russian, even though my out laws are convinced I do, I asked for a tranaslation. It went like this:
 
The DJ is asking listeners to share their love stories with the public; how they met, what keeps them together, etc.
 
This girl starts by saying that when her live-in boyfriend goes to work every day he says he'll be back for dinner time and he does. There are days he says he will not come homew after work and he doesn't.  When he gets paid, he gives her money for the bills and then tells her he will go out with friends, get drunk, spend all the money and come back home. And he does it.
 
DJ and others chime in; why don't you leave this loser?
 
She says: "He may be a loser but he always keeps his promises."

[Vaughn]

She says: "He may be a loser but he always keeps his promises."

LOL!! Dependability goes a long, long way.

[Gator]

She says: "He may be a loser but he always keeps his promises."

Good one!  All she has to do is negotiate a better promise.

[Manny]

What hasn't been mentioned here up to now is that relationships cannot develop awfully well when people are using electronic translation. During critical stages, translation should be done by a person, not software. That way you write her in Russian and she replies in Russian. That removes all communication ambiguity in one sweep. Yes, it costs money, but so does everything in this endeavour.

Another thing that struck me from reading the replies is this insistence on Skype from so many guys. For sure, this is easy for us as we all have fast connections and PC's at home. This woman sounds like a village girl who pays to use a computer somewhere. Its understandable she doesn't want to have some half arsed conversation in a second language in front of others. Who would?

Naturally, a three way call would make sense. There are many such providers and it isn't awfully expensive, but like anything it can mount up.

Had the communication to date been translated properly - by a person - you would have known not just her number, but the best time to call.

You have had some good advice on the topic and I think you realise you have not gone into this quite right. Yes, you are the man. Women in this part of the world expect men to behave like men and take the lead. Writing through software for four months is not doing that. She will see that as dawdling behaviour that is not serious. Have your interpreter get in touch with her and fix up a three way call. Tell her of this in your next communication which should be properly translated by a person. If you encounter any resistance to that, then move on.

As a final thought, I see upthread that you are now giving more serious thought to the barrier that language creates. It is a big barrier and not one that should be underestimated. However, it can be overcome if you throw money at it if and when you have a proper relationship going on. As an American, if and when the time came, there will be many months of waiting for any US visa to be issued. This time can be used for intensive English lessons.

Assuming you haven't given up already, begin at once using proper translation and get the call fixed up ASAP. Forget the software stuff for now.

[Shadow]

While I agree that for some things a human translator is best, the main thing needed is a will to communicate. If that is present, communication will happen regardless of obstacles.
If there is no will to communicate, even native speakers of a language will not be able to do so.
Part of the experience is to meet friends and family, who often have no more knowledge of English as what they remember from one year in school. Still they are often able to bridge the language gap.Others can do amazing effort to communicate. When my mother-in-law heard that our eldest son actually understands English quite well (my mistake for putting on cBeebies instead of Dutch channels) she took het old courses and is once again learning English at over 73 years of age.

[Badabing]

...the main thing needed is a will to communicate. If that is present, communication will happen regardless of obstacles.
If there is no will to communicate, even native speakers of a language will not be able to do so...

Right on, Shadow. I asked Katya if she wanted to use a translator during our first phone call and she said, ¨yes, because this way I will be able to perfectly understand your complex phrases¨ 
I was trying to figure out why she assumed all of a sudden I used complex phrases...it must have been from a couple of messages I left on her voice mail. I probably talked too fast and she didn´t get one word.
 
I guess we all feel compelled to speak another language when we find a good reason for it, regardless of our age. In the case of your mother-in-law Shadow, I guess she found enough motivation to communicate with her grandson better. And, along the way she will communicate better with you.

Ok, let me clear up something guys. I have not broken any promise yet. Don´t jump to conclusions and don´t make a big drama out of this (i.e. ¨ you wasted 4 months of your life¨). I´m excited to finally be able to talk to Katya and eventually come to meet her and her family. It should be fun for both of us. That´s what matters.

I have to admit the 3 way call would have never crossed my mind, ever. I owe it to you guys (Gator, Boethius and Manny). I´ll keep you posted.

[newjason]

Badabing,
I was just beginning to write to you and ask If you have talked to her yet.

[Faux Pas]

Don't read too much into "complex phrases". Likely it is just her description of not being able to understand you. Written or spoken words need to be chosen carefully when trying to communicate directly with someone unfamiliar with the language. No slang, no abbreviations, keep your sentences short and to the point. A good translator will likely make a world of difference for you both.

[Shadow]

Badabing, let me try to give an example. In normal writing language we are all making phrases that are long, and these are pretty hard to translate using software or dictionaries as they become complex.
For translation break up sentences. It is easier to find the subject. They are faster to translate.

See what I did there ?

[Faux Pas]

Badabing, let me try to give an example. In normal writing language we are all making phrases that are long, and these are pretty hard to translate using software or dictionaries as they become complex.
For translation break up sentences. It is easier to find the subject. They are faster to translate.

See what I did there ?

good example

[Badabing]

I talked to Katya yesterday for the first time in 5 months. Her English is good. I paid Elena, the translator,  to do the interpretation on a phone call but we never needed her. I called her first and talked to her without problems. I was so surprised to hear she understood every single word I said. It felt like I was on cloud #9. She told me she is going to be away training in Vitebsk in June. So I have to change my trip to come and see her in July. At least now I know she is real and not a product of my fantasy or imagination. From all the advice I've got here, women intuition hit the nail right on the head. Yet, I'm a man and think like most of the guys...I'm going to take a shot at this girl not only  because I have spent so much time and effort on her but simply because I think she's worth it. Sometimes being patient pays off.

[timinua]

I have an English school. One of our programs is a beginner's course that lasts 6 months and takes students from no English up to the pre-intermediate level. These courses are taught by Russian-speaking teachers. The students then join the intermediate program in which half of the classes are taught by a Russian-speaking teacher and half by a native speaker.

During the sixth month, I start showing up to classes to acclimate students to what's in store for them. We used to announce when I'd be showing up, but we stopped doing that, as most of the students would be absent on that day. Why? Because they were scared to death to speak with a native speaker. And these people were students who had put in a lot of time and had paid money for their goal of speaking English.

Similarly, I taught many classes at KSU, and my first lessons with a new class usually consisted of 18 silent students and 2 students I couldn't get to shut up. The English level of the students and their willingness to communicate was unrelated. People with outgoing personalities will speak regardless of their level.

And, in my single days, I've lost count of the number of girls I talked with who swore up and down they didn't speak English, and who, several dates later, fed up with listening to my Russian (it was quite bad in those days), switched over to decent English. The ones who immediately chatted in English seemed always to have agendas.

Most Ukrainians have a tendency to underestimate their language skills and are embarrassed at the thought of "showing their ass" (Russian phrase). Many are just plain lazy about language (something most of us can probably  relate to).

My point is that a girl not wanting to have a conversation in English is not necessarily a sign that she is uninterested  and is definitely not a sign she is scammer.

A point that is overlooked here is that you must insist on a Skype or telephone conversation. Not suggest. Not even ask. Insist. You don't have to be  a d*ck about it, but you need to communicate as early as possible that this is not negotiable. If she refuses, move on.

[calmissile]

Quote from Tim

A point that is overlooked here is that you must insist on a Skype or telephone conversation. Not suggest. Not even ask. Insist. You don't have to be  a d*ck about it, but you need to communicate as early as possible that this is not negotiable. If she refuses, move on.

+100

Out of curiousity, what are the specifics for the English classes?
Cost in grivna, hours each day, days per week ,etc.?

[Anotherkiwi]

...People with outgoing personalities will speak regardless of their level.

True - and not just in situations like this (think about any staff meeting in an office or building site).

Most Ukrainians and Russians have a tendency to underestimate their language skills and are embarrassed at the thought of "showing their ass" (Russian phrase). Many are just plain lazy about language (something most of us can probably relate to).

I've told this story before, but not for a while, so there will be plenty of people even newer than me that won't have seen it before.
 
On my first trip to Russia I was lucky enough to be invited to go on a coach trip with a large group of University English-language students.  This was National Tourism Day (end of September), and we went from Naberezhnye Chelny (about 230 km east of Kazan) to Raifa Monastery near Kazan, then sightseeing in the big city before returning to Chelny.
 
Anyway, the reactions of the lecturers and students couldn't have been more different.  I had already met one of the lecturers, as she was a friend of the woman I had gone to see and had interpreted on our phone conversations.  The other lecturers all made me feel very welcome (all spoke very good English, if not native level).  I got weird looks from all the students, with a couple of girls even looking like they thought I had horns on my head!     They had all been told that, as a special treat, they were going to have a native speaker along for the day, and that they were welcome to talk to me about anything to practise their English.
 
Four hours later we arrived at Raifa, and not one of the students had made a move, so my woman friend and I started exploring the Monastery (just as a side note - if anyone on this forum gets to Kazan, go to the Monastery.  I was told that it is one of the holiest places in the Orthodox religion, and it is certainly very beautiful, although not particularly big).  Finally, as I was gazing at the altar in one of the churches, one of the students came up to me and started to explain what everything meant.  His English wasn't anywhere near perfect, but he was easy enough to understand.  A couple of his classmates saw us talking and joined us and, as we went outside, more and more came over to the group.
 
Eventually there must have been about 30 surrounding us, and the questions finally started to flow, although still mainly in Russian.  A few braver souls tried in English, and my original icebreaker explained that they were all worried that a native speaker would laugh at their attempts to speak English.  I reassured them by pointing out that I had the same experience in reverse, but that nobody had laughed at my Russian language skills.  They did laugh at that, which broke the ice, and for the next 15 minutes or so, until we had to return to the coach, a very lively discussion ensued.
 
This is the very point that Tim was making in his post - their English is much better than they think, but so many are scared to try it because they have had very little practice and think they will be laughed at.  Reassure them on that point and a great weight is lifted off their shoulders.
 

My point is that a girl not wanting to have a conversation in English is not necessarily a sign that she is uninterested  and is definitely not a sign she is scammer.

Exactly.

[Jumper]

I talked to Katya yesterday for the first time in 5 months. Her English is good. I paid Elena, the translator,  to do the interpretation on a phone call but we never needed her. I called her first and talked to her without problems. I was so surprised to hear she understood every single word I said. It felt like I was on cloud #9. She told me she is going to be away training in Vitebsk in June. So I have to change my trip to come and see her in July. At least now I know she is real and not a product of my fantasy or imagination. From all the advice I've got here, women intuition hit the nail right on the head. Yet, I'm a man and think like most of the guys...I'm going to take a shot at this girl not only  because I have spent so much time and effort on her but simply because I think she's worth it. Sometimes being patient pays off.

You can tell  a lot from her tone, and manner then just the words..?

Was she happy to hear from you? enthusiastic about you coming to visit?

I hope there was some spark in the conversation, and that you have a great trip!.



It seems odd to me you dint get through to her  before,as her English is good,but  I have never bought into some of the adages here about RW generally being shy,or  reserved, or waiting for the man to lead.
( most are far from any of that  lol ,but yes quiet, reserved, shy types also of course exist there)
Anyway I've had plenty of RW call me out of the blue, and certainly if we had a couple months of emails.Certainly after a few months they would expect a call for sure,or feel i wasn't serious
(all the questions you initially had , they have as well)
One thing I have never experienced, is a RW that was really interested in me , that din't want
to talk, a lot, and often. 
Your mileage may vary ,but i doubt it


You are the interested party here, and if you want , should give it a shot..
why not?

but its just a date,  and traveling 14 hours verses 14 minutes doesn't change that really?
So I would advise keeping the expectations the same level as locally? a local woman that took 4 months of emails to get in contact by phone..i know that sounds harsh, and it isnt meant  to be.
Its just where you actually are at , unless that one conversation really truly *clicked* for you both(which it may have?)

I'm sure you will build on the phone call with follow ups,
and if shes really interested, you should hear it in her voice when you call, and yes she should be asking a lot of questions about you, and wanting you to call often.(again only if she is really interested) 

[timinua]

Out of curiousity, what are the specifics for the English classes?
Cost in grivna, hours each day, days per week ,etc.?

At our physical school, we have group classes ranging from 495 UAH for 12 (one-hour) lessons (beginner) to 595UAH for 8 lessons (conversation). Our online prices are a little higher because the classes are smaller (4 vs. 6-8).

[Daveman]

I talked to Katya yesterday for the first time in 5 months. Her English is good. I paid Elena, the translator,  to do the interpretation on a phone call but we never needed her. I called her first and talked to her without problems. I was so surprised to hear she understood every single word I said. It felt like I was on cloud #9. She told me she is going to be away training in Vitebsk in June. So I have to change my trip to come and see her in July. At least now I know she is real and not a product of my fantasy or imagination. From all the advice I've got here, women intuition hit the nail right on the head. Yet, I'm a man and think like most of the guys...I'm going to take a shot at this girl not only  because I have spent so much time and effort on her but simply because I think she's worth it. Sometimes being patient pays off.

Whether it will with this one remains for you to see.  In this recipe for Cross Cultural Quagmire Quiche of boy meets girl, patience is a base ingredient.  Without it you'll just wind up with scrambled eggs.