What happened to appeal of foreign wife ???

[ML]

What happened to appeal of having a foreign bride ?

Way back in the day, I happened upon
http://www.planet-love.com/

In the early days, there were 3 sections for men interested in women from
Asia, Latin, and Eastern Europe.

All the forums were very active in early 2000s.

At some point, the Eastern Europe section was spit off into the current RWD.

Over the years hundreds even thousands of guys appeared in the various forums testing the waters.

They gave various reasons for looking for a foreign bride:

Younger woman
More attractive in face woman.
More slender woman.
Woman who wanted (or didn't want) children.
More submissive woman (although not usually saying these specific words).
More traditional woman, which might be defined differently by different men.
etc., etc., etc.

Then when Covid hit and the Russian terrorist invasion of Ukraine happened, quite naturally the activity on this RWD board dramatically decreased.

However, surprisingly to me . . . in looking at the above noted website, the activity on the Latin  and Asian forums has also fallen to practically nothing.

The last posting on the Asian forum was July 28, 2023, and on the Latin was December 28, 2023.

So what's the 'scoop' here; why the decline of interest in obtaining one of them there furin gals?

[Trenchcoat]

It surprises me ML. I know this topic has come up no so long ago in here and stuff was ventured as to the reason, people using social media more to find the answers - I didn't really buy that. I don't find that social media has the depth a lit of forums do. Sometimes a quick array of possible answers may be garnered but often they aren't often well considered enough, often kind of breezy pass around stuff without much understanding.

I personally wonder if it's not so much us trying to understand them now, East Europeans, Asians, South Americans. But then understanding us better so we don't need to understand them as much as we used too.

I mean western culture has spread and I think now has possibly penetrated deep enough through the Internet, TV, Films, Pop Music, etc to make girls in far flung parts of the world outside the west understand us westerners much better, even to the extent of becoming somewhat western themselves.

So if they get us more, even become like us, then they can interact better with us and less misunderstanding likely. Add to that possibly better understanding of English so again less misunderstanding as less women that just know little to no English. So I think quite possibly the guys & girls are getting into relationships that whole may not be the same as getting with a western woman (thank god) are now easy enough to navigate with each other that complex issues are no longer present. The foreign girl finally realises that she is with a foreign guy and they aren't likely to act like local guys and know how their culture is. That and their culture may have shifted to being a little more western in some ways anyway.

I personally think that is the answer. For many guys there is always Google search and most stuff has been asked and gone through after 20 odd years or so. So up pops the question others have asked and others have answered. Many can even visit here and view all the past questions and answers.

So why bother asking questions to stuff that has been answered possibly many times in many places online. It's a damn shame as the fun part is always when something new and fresh comes along and everyone is trying to discover what it is about and understand it.

However, that said I think there are only so many people that are looking abroad for a partner still. Apart from those that don't wish to, the too lazy, those with hang ups or objections, etc. I think that there is still the whole, messaging, video chat, boy meets girl - Do we get on? thing. That is usually a long winded process as rarely do people get lucky first time, it happens but it is often a numbers game.

I personally think that there is still a use for forums but I think the scope and emphasis is now different. I don't think it is now so much about 'Dating a FSW' that has been largely done, but now more about a 'East European Community' or
wherever. Going more into more everyday issues and general relationships and stuff. My guess is if I went to try and date an Asian girl from Asia I wouldn't have to learn that much these days whereas in the past I would. I think that even the topic of needing advice on how to date FSW these days is possibly becoming a bit peculiar as if it is needed.

That I say after god knows how many hundreds or
thousands of posts on here trying to understand the topic. Just as I understand it, it all moves on and is perhaps not so needed, lol. Just my luck!

The girl I am with at present I think while my understanding and interest in Ukraine help I also think that I could probably hold down a relationship with her without it. Sure there would be a little more learning along the way but I don't think it would be anything big to cause difficulty. My experience in Ukraine etc probably makes her feel a bit more comfortable as opposed to some guy who had no idea of the country as never visited & didn't know anything but I would guess it wouldn't necessarily stop a relationship.

[Trenchcoat]

That or the virus has put people off the idea of bothering. If people get together possible extra virus risk. Bigger issue is probably having kids who may need injections their entire life and a possible shortened lifespan. After all the Coronavirus has not gone, it may be a long time if ever we find an answer to it. So who wishes to bring kids into that world.

I still would as I see it that there has always been adversity in life and it's something to push your way through. Others have different ideas of course and aren't as keen. The virus isn't as bad as it was before the vaccine became available so in order to have a life I see it as worth pressing on, others possibly might have decided not to bother, possibly.

[Trenchcoat]

This article shows that the Coronavirus is still a menace and something to remain worried about:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2024/01/11/covid-deaths-holidays-world-health-organization/

So that's approximately 10,000 deaths globally in the month of December alone possibly more depending on how accurate countries are in forwarding the data.

So a chipping away of tte World's population a bit at a time but it all adds up. Some of these people might have died if something else after a while if they were elderly who knows. I think though while youngsters have a future ahead of them until Covid is properly dealt with if ever when they get to more elderly years they will be more vulnerable. That is I think the idea of the virus, to cut down on a global  population that is outstripping global resources while tending to mostly knock off the least productive, usually the elderly or those in poor health.

The situation used to be that the elderly passed on to make way for the young. Many have no wish to see their elderly parents and so forth pass on, it's a time many fear and hate to see. With it increasingly happening at a slower pace than it used to through better medical care I think it became a big demographic issue. That's why I personally think this virus was deliberate, the world's government's can't say that though, but I think the case likely was that we were all screwed in the near future unless something gives, so we have that give now.

[Bee Farmer]

ML,
  I think the largest market of men looking for foreign wives were/are men in the 40-50 age range.

20 years ago, 40-50 year old men were baby boomers...the largest generation.  (Which had the highest divorce rates.)
20 years later, the 40-50 year old men are Generation X - the second smallest generation. (only Gen X's kids, Gen Y have a smaller generation.)  Gen X also has the lowest divorce rates.
And what age range of wives are men looking for, 30-40?

Asia and Latin America have been industrializing, and their birth rate has been falling off a cliff.  China, Japan, South Korea have rapidly aging populations because they stopped having kids 40 years ago.  Even Thailand's birthrate is declining rapidly.  Just look at a population pyramid for them - every age group under 45 is getting smaller.

Latin America is a little late to the game in industrializing, but their birth rates are already having an impact. For almost every year in the past 15 years, more people have been moving to Mexico from the US than Mexicans coming to America.

When the Soviet Union fell apart in the early 90's, folks stopped having kids because of economic uncertainty. 

So you have multiple factors at play.
20 years ago, you had the largest generation of men, in a generation with the highest divorce rates.
Now, you have one of the smallest generations of men, in a generation with the lowest divorce rates.

20 years ago, foreign countries had lots of 30-40 year old single women.
Now, you have smaller generations of single women in the 30-40 age range.

Add to that, many of the countries men used to go to look for women had bad economies.  There was a lot of economic hardship.
Now, many of those nations have developed more, and the economy has improved.  Women have more options now for a better life in their home country, without needing to look for a foreign husband.

[ML]

All good points.

[Davo]

.

[Davo]

It’s probably a combination of the war, covid and the fact that forums are becoming a thing of the past…. Men are getting advice and support from Telegram, WhatsApp etc.. groups, where they can have privacy, it’s more user friendly and easier to share experiences….Another thing I’ve noticed since 2019 is women are lowing their age criteria…. It used to be most would state on their profile that they seek a man 3-15 years older and you’d have a hard time finding a woman seeking her own age…. Now there’s still women looking for older men, but they have also lowered the age they seek to 2-5 years younger. I just did a search for women between 35-45  and 6 out of 8 on the first page were willing to date / marry a younger man….. This is the same across multiple sites…. It’s like the all woke up one day and said f*€k you old bastards, we want some young toy boy action!! 😂…. Maybe less older men are seeing this as a viable option because women seem to be getting pickier about age…. Any other ideas about this mass lowering in age criteria?

[Trenchcoat]

It’s probably a combination of the war, covid and the fact that forums are becoming a thing of the past…. Men are getting advice and support from Telegram, WhatsApp etc.. groups, where they can have privacy, it’s more user friendly and easier to share experiences….Another thing I’ve noticed since 2019 is women are lowing their age criteria…. It used to be most would state on their profile that they seek a man 3-15 years older and you’d have a hard time finding a woman seeking her own age…. Now there’s still women looking for older men, but they have also lowered the age they seek to 2-5 years younger. I just did a search for women between 35-45  and 6 out of 8 on the first page were willing to date / marry a younger man….. This is the same across multiple sites…. It’s like the all woke up one day and said f*€k you old bastards, we want some young toy boy action!! 😂…. Maybe less older men are seeing this as a viable option because women seem to be getting pickier about age…. Any other ideas about this mass lowering in age criteria?

A search can be done on Fdate without having an account just to see what gets thrown up. For women that are 25-35 in Ukraine, without children, non smokers and with photos the following comes up:

http://fdating.com/search?do=Search;gender=2;ageFrom=25;ageTo=35;country=223;sort=ll;smoking=1044;photo=true;children=1064;mode=gallery;saveAs=;page=1;

A few like you say will accept men a few years younger along with guys that are many years older often up to ten years or more older. Some dirty girls prefer to to ridden by a real old boy on there lol.

[Davo]

For interest sake, search for English speaking women, 35-45, in both Ukraine and Russia, then 46-55 in both countries and post the results.

[Davo]

Here’s a challenge for you trench to see where your dating value is…. http://fdating.com/profile?id=5211962;  An attractive English speaking, single mother, older than you…. Can you get a reply?. I’ve messaged similar women and it could go either way.

[Trenchcoat]

Ok Ukrainian women 35-45, no children, with photos and English Speakers:

http://fdating.com/search?gender=2;ageFrom=35;ageTo=45;country=223;children=1064;languages=1024;photo=true;sort=ll;mode=gallery;do=Search;

Same again with Ukrainian women but the 46-55 year age group:

http://fdating.com/search?gender=2;ageFrom=46;ageTo=55;country=223;children=1064;languages=1024;photo=true;sort=ll;mode=gallery;do=Search;

I would say that there is a noticeable increase in this age group looking for younger guys as well as older than the 35-45 year old Ukrainian women.

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Ok, now Russian women 35-45 same criteria as the above:

http://fdating.com/search?gender=2;ageFrom=35;ageTo=45;country=173;state=--Select--;city=--Select--;children=1064;languages=1024;photo=true;sort=ll;mode=gallery;do=Search;

I would say this group has an increased amount of women looking for younger guys as well as older than the Ukrainian women of the same age group.

And Russian women 46-55, same criteria:

http://fdating.com/search?gender=2;ageFrom=46;ageTo=55;country=173;children=1064;languages=1024;photo=true;sort=ll;mode=gallery;do=Search;

This age group seems to have a lot of women looking for younger men up to their age and a few years over, but not many years over. Some women still with the larger older age gaps but generally not that many in this age group.

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So I think you are right to some extent Davo, definitely a bit different from before. However for most FSW I don't think the game has changed a lot most likely still prefer the older men but now they are increasingly likely to accept younger men. Desperation perhaps? Both Ukraine and Russia are getting worse places to be economically, many will have dwindling supply of good men as many men get sent to the front. I would reckon that it's down to the girls just realising that any foreign dude is a good thing than the current situation they are in so they are now willing to broaden the field to younger men if needs be.

[Davo]

Try Russia trench, but open it up to women which children too….. Was thinking some of the married guys would like to see the the dating pool in 2024…..  Have a go at my challenge. If she doesn’t reply I’ll throw another at you a bit younger.

[Trenchcoat]

Try Russia trench, but open it up to women which children too….. Was thinking some of the married guys would like to see the the dating pool in 2024…..  Have a go at my challenge. If she doesn’t reply I’ll throw another at you a bit younger.

You've missed the news Davo I am already sorted with a girl, a good Ukrainian girl

So I can't go messaging other women for a date.

My present girl is well over 10 years younger than me. She seems really into me. She was prepared to go for a guy a bit older than even I am. I asked her why and she said it's just the way out her way.

I think for women most prefer older men. It's kind of the opposite for them like most guys prefer younger women, women prefer older men because the seniority brings a certain status. Men prefer younger women because they tend to be more youthful looking and youthful in women is attractive to men. I don't think women's outlook has changed in the FSU but their desperation has and that has put their outlook as of secondary importance to their desperation. So now they will accept a younger guy even if it doesn't sit so well in their mind.

I think women will still consider if they really want the guy though whatever age within their stated range he is possibly even just outside their stated range also.

So I think even for women with kids not all will like a guy enough to reply as after all they have to live with the guy permanently if they go forward with it all.

I did much of what you ask now last year Davo I think the reply rate was probably about 50/50 but if course done if those girls had not been on there since posting a message to them etc. I think them having kids made them a bit more receptive but it still came down a lot to whether they took to your pics, profile and could see themselves with you. After all plenty of other guys to hear from that might have hit the mark closer to what they had in mind I guess.

[civi68]

Everyone made some good points, particularly Bee Farmer. Changing demographics in the US/Europe and the women's countries likely making a difference. Both the men and women may also have a more realistic view of this venture compared to the fantasy years where the men thought most of the beautiful women would be devoted wives and the women thought most men had more money and status than in reality.
  My first trip was in Odessa in 1998 with European Connections. A lot of changes since then. Men, including myself, knew little about the FSU and the women other than what we heard from dating agencies. Women didn't know as much about us, either, other than we had money and offered a better life than their failing economies in freefall back then. Then, over the years, I noticed reality setting in for myself, guys, and the women, as well as the changing nature of economics and technology.

[Bee Farmer]

Here’s a challenge for you trench to see where your dating value is…. http://fdating.com/profile?id=5211962;  An attractive English speaking, single mother, older than you…. Can you get a reply?. I’ve messaged similar women and it could go either way.

I think the only thing worse than you trying to play a prank on Trench at this poor lady's expense is the possibility that you might actually be serious.

Whether a guy in his 40's can get a reply from that lady says nothing about his dating value.  Nothing.  The way to measure how low the man's dating value is would be if he would actually write this lady.  Most guys aren't going to give her the time of day.

What western guy in his 40's with enough money to consider a foreign lady would be interested in a 48 year old, overweight, divorced, single mother from another country when he can get a middle aged, overweight, divorced, single mother any day of the week from a local dating website?  Seriously.
 
A western guy in his 60's might be interested in this lady, if he wanted a younger woman than he could find locally.

[ML]

A western guy in his 60's might be interested in this lady, if he wanted a younger woman than he could find locally.

Will western guys in 60's accept an overweight woman in order to have a younger woman ?

Not me.

[Trenchcoat]

I think a big part is:

1). Technological Change: The earliest Smartphone I had was a dinky little Blackberry one (8110 I think they called it, the cheapest one) that was around 2007/2008 and it was great fun, but real basic. Then by around 2010/2011 ish I got a HTC Smartphone I think when basic Apps was starting off, at that point I didn't see the need when I had the webpages anyway to do it through. In 2012 I was walking around Copenhagen and some woman was good enough to show me where I was with Google Maps on her phone, this was the first time I had come across it on a mobile phone, data allowance an expensive luxury then. Then around 2013/2014 I think it was my HTC conked out and I got a more advanced and faster Samsung mini something. That lasted me a number of years before I got a replacement Xoami duel sim phone that was better and faster still. The point being in all this is that the internet became more accessible and portable along the way, once decent data allowances came along from about around 2015 onwards then it meant that a lot more people could access the internet regularly on their mobile phone. For Ukrainian I think that this has in part meant a lot more influence of Western Culture has now made it to them and now be accessed easily and often on a regular basis.

2). Western Cultural Penetration: This leads on from the first point in that increasingly I think that Western Culture now penetrates places like Ukraine even Russia. The internet plays a big part in this but I think it has taken many years for the internet to develop enough to penetrate places like Ukraine and Russia. Back in the day it was just too basic for the most part to influence lives enough in the FSU from what they were used too. In recent years the internet has become so vast in knowledge and experiences such as streaming films, etc and social media & entertainment platforms that it's now almost the universal experience of many, almost most people in this planet. Beyond that if course are western companies that have moved into Ukraine post Maidan and before the invasion even Russia moreso than in the past. I wonder in part if Putler got irritated by this western influence creeping in and encroaching on his turf.

I think those two aspects are very influential in the altering of the FSU as an almost exotic not too well understood area by many westerners to being a place that in many parts is not so much estranged from the west as it once was. I think in Ukraine in particular the westernisation going on means that as said earlier there is less cultural difference than before as they adopt some western ways so less to explain as a difference making dating Ukrainian women easier as they get more in touch with our ways.

I think before COVID & the Invasion took place when I was in Kyiv in 2019 and even a bit before Kyiv and probably many parts of Ukraine was getting quite affluent. Girls weren't so bothered about foreign guys, some still did, but commonly on the Street very little to no interest. I think the Invasion now though has changed it all back again, it's screwing the economies of both Ukraine & Russia. Ukraine can't explore & develop it's likely oil
reserves and Russia oil & gas is locked out of foreign markets, by the time it may get access again oil & gas may no longer be a big money earner what with electric cars and all, that depends of course if electric cars ever fully take the market.

Anyway, I think the big thing is here is that a lot of guys now overlook Ukraine (Russia understandably through not wanting to end up in prison as a diplomatic pawn). However, I think for Ukraine this is probably the best time to do searching for a girl since the breakup of the USSR. They are now often westernised, often speak English, know that once again there is little future in Ukraine and once again the economy is not good there. The war has turfed up a lot of decent girls that otherwise may not have come to consider a foreign man. If I had the time on my hands and not attached I could go over there or nearby and date loads of women where before a much harder time. At my age though if I want to have family that's a potentially risky strategy as time is not on my side to go be a playboy and have a family life. I'm never really sure if I had what it takes to be a playboy anyway lol.

[ML]

For Ukrainian I think that this has in part meant a lot more influence of Western Culture has now made it to them and now be accessed easily and often on a regular basis.

I think in Ukraine in particular the westernisation going on means that as said earlier there is less cultural difference than before as they adopt some western ways so less to explain as a difference making dating Ukrainian women easier as they get more in touch with our ways.

They are now often westernised, often speak English . . .

Yes, sometimes I wonder if I have really married a foreign woman.
My wife so quickly adapted to life here that one could assume she was born and raised here.

And it is not just my wife.  There are 5 other Ukrainian couples where one or both parties are associated with the University.  They drive cars (despite never doing so in Ukraine), have children who join Little League, Boy Scouts, vote in elections and, in general, are not distinguishly different from the rest of the city.

Now there are also here 3 sets of parents who are refugees from the war.  They also drive cars, shop in the supermarkets without their children, and (all but one person) are hard at work becoming more proficient in English.

- - - - -

One little nod in the other direction:  12-14 years ago when I was with her in her house; she once said:  "Let's turn off that American music (which I had taped before) and listen to something else for a change."  Never heard that said again, but then here we seem to listen to an eclectic assortment.

- - - - - -

And another thing:  I cannot hear her sexy voice . . . meaning I don't hear an accent.  But she does have an accent, as her students sometimes mention it (sometimes noting it is pleasant to hear) and new acquaintences quickly ask . . . where are you from.

But I am being cheated!!

[Trenchcoat]

Will western guys in 60's accept an overweight woman in order to have a younger woman ?

Not me.

Overweight women are abhorrent to most men. I think there is a kind of rough dividing line where a woman will become too overweight for most men to want to entertain the notion of dating her. I think some men will put up with a little overweight. I myself am slightly overweight at the moment but on a 6ft frame it hardly noticed.

A lot of the time as we have hear guys talk of overweight women like they've got the plague and for significantly overweight women, the very obese, it's certainly unattractive for most men and I don't blame them. However, consider that most men go for women in at least average build or slimmer. There are then women that may be just a bit on the overweight not so pleasant overweight side of things that put a lot of men of but aren't that far over the line, far enough to put guys off but not all that far. If that girl is willing to improve and making an effort to do so then potentially there is an opportunity for a guy to get with a girl that all the other guys aren't rushing towards.

So I would say while guys need to go for what they want don't necessarily rule out girls just a bit over if they are willing to improve and aren't necessarily natural long term fatties.

Those women that just don't care about being fat and think the guy should just accept it if course are usually deluding themselves and unfortunately for them often lose out on having a life just because of bad attitude and eating habits.

[Steven1971]

Western guys who are approaching the big 40 have grown up with the internet and if not already married will have had more dates and more opportunities than those of us who entered adulthood meeting women in bars, clubs, at parties, set up by friends... Maybe in ten years if they are still unmarried they might widen their search beyond their country, but for now their dating pool is much larger than that those of us who are 50+ encountered.Lucky ********.

[ML]

Good point Steven.

[Trenchcoat]

Western guys who are approaching the big 40 have grown up with the internet and if not already married will have had more dates and more opportunities than those of us who entered adulthood meeting women in bars, clubs, at parties, set up by friends... Maybe in ten years if they are still unmarried they might widen their search beyond their country, but for now their dating pool is much larger than that those of us who are 50+ encountered.Lucky ********.

You might think, but like many things in life the vision doesn't match reality. The only guys that do well online are the pretty boys, girls see their photos and they do what the guys do when they see a photo of a pretty girl online - they all put in for her. So pretty boys using apps like Tinder get most of the dates, as recent research that can be found online by googling shows the top 10, 15 maybe 20 percent of guys looks wise get about 80 percent or more of the girls. Sometimes a dude that plays the rich boy card online may get a look in too, etc but that's about the size of it.

Bars & nightclubs I know from pre-internet days weren't often much better, there again you had the pretty boys and also the socially adept guys to compete with, so tough competition. If you were neither say an everyday looking guy who was not so good socially then often the girls would just ignore you usually in a busy club. It's where you used to get the guys seeing that a club was too busy and deciding to try another club. I used to get done interest in the quieter clubs with some eye flirting but my wingman (my brother) was unfortunately more hapless than I was and was too reluctant to try his luck.

I honestly don't know what younger dudes in this country are thinking nowadays. I think many just concentrate on their courses, work and it's become the guys going out with the guys the girls going out with the girls in groups situation 😬 Kind of like in Primary School like too few have grown up to develop past that like puberty has never taken place. That of course and more guys are doing themselves in more than ever in the West.

Too few youngsters seem to view going further a field as an option, a few might but most don't. I'm not entirely sure why that is possibly they are just too lazy like if they can't have it fall into their lap here then they don't want to bother and easier to switch on the Xbox, Netflix etc and forget all about it between work shifts. I think that's just delaying the problem though and it's all going to come home to roost for both genders at some point most likely.

At the moment as bad as it may sound the FSU presents an unprecedented opportunity for the single guy. On the one hand is the bad economy in Ukraine and Russia that is only likely to worsen the longer the war goes on, that makes Western guys sexy again for FSW.  The other, and this is something post Soviet collapse did not have so much, is the loss of men of prime dateable age. Somewhere in the region of 350,000 in Russia and I am going to guess probably at least 200,000 maybe even 250,000 or so in Ukraine. Whatever the precise figure it means that there are less guys for girls out that way to choose from. Sure many women have fled abroad, some have hooked up with guys abroad permanently others have not. There's FSW in western guys back yard now who have remained undiscovered gems because the girl isn't in tune with living in the west.

So there's really a wealth of opportunity out there for western guys if they buy just go look, but they just don't see it. A bit like when I didn't see the wealth of opportunity the immediate post FSU world could bring me in the nineties and early noughties. After all the male/female imbalance out in the FSU only needs to change a bit in their being more females of prime dating age to males to make men over there a big deal to the women and hence a good easy situation to almost any man out that way.

[Steven1971]

An average girl at some stage wants a boyfriend. She can Tinder date above her average, but once she gets bored of players there are opportunities for an ordinary Joe. Plus girls tend to go for guys 2-3 years older than them, so it's just a question of time for both.

[Steven1971]

I think there's an element of projection in your standpoint Trench. As they say the plural of an anecdote is not data.