Russian Women Discussion
RWD Discussion Groups => Married => Topic started by: Journeyman on August 06, 2008, 01:39:57 AM
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Is there any parallel for men or women in the FSU regarding the intense pace at work that some of us experience in the United States? If so, even though I have been traveling to the FSU and interacting with Russian folks since 2000, I have not yet seen any corollaries in their country. I think that I must have just missed something.
I work in a professional environment (executives, lawyers, CPAs, bankers, etc.), and run a corporate division with an annual volume of $100 million and growing. The people with whom I interact, including outside professionals and direct reports, all work 55+ hours per week on average. Sometimes more, rarely less. All are working in 4th gear constantly, and many go into overdrive for hours or days at a time. Rarely, rarely, can anybody coast, even for a day. One lawyer (outside counsel) with whom I work closely works nearly ALL his waking hours, and is never disconnected fully from his practice, and ends up working regularly on his "vacations" (for which I have had to apologize to him from time to time -- for keeping him so busy). I'm sure this is a familiar theme to some of you who are reading this.
I am finding that my Russian wife just doesn't seem to understand that when I am at the office or on the road, I am really working hard. I am not playing golf, not sitting at a restaurant tipping a few with other businessmen, and not just hanging out with the boss. It just seems that she doesn't have any frame of reference for understanding this kind of work. Granted, she knows a few Russian WOMEN back in Ukraine who are sometimes working 2 or 3 jobs to make ends meet. However, it doesn't seem that she thinks it possible that a successful MAN actually "works" hard for a living. Sometimes very hard. I get the impression that she thinks that a man who wears a suit to the office has somehow "made it" and can thereafter simply "coast" once he arrives at his place of work. She will think nothing of launching into a lenthy, difficult conversation on the telephone in the middle of my work day, as though I have nothing better to do. If I tell her I am really busy, but want to continue the conversation later when I get home, she sometimes responds ......"how can you be so busy, you aren't a mother with a child." BTW, we don't have children (not yet). She is in her early thirties and has never had what we would call a career, or had steady employment for years at a time. Of course, simply that is a rather difficult thing to come by for many Ukrainians. In her prior marriage, she was essentially a "kept woman." She admits that she is a little spoiled, but I would not regard her wants or attitudes toward material things as excessive. Still, I keep thinking that she has to understand that a man doesn't make good money by simply "showing up" for work.
Naturally, I keep finding that her frame of reference for many things is limited, of course, to those things in her prior experiences in Ukraine. However, even with respect to successful men in Ukriane, she seems to think that they just "enjoy" their status, cheat on their wives with younger girls, and drink expensive vodka and cognac, etc., but not really work. Maybe that is true? A continually vigorous pace of work just seems to be "foreign" to her -- except when she worked in her vegetable garden at her parents dacha, working all day long tending to the plants and vegetables. However, I have also heard of similar stories of Russian women who have come to this country, getting an opportunity to work at either an entry level (say, a bank teller), or perhaps even a significant level (say, a physician), and then are shocked to find how intense the work situation is here -- fast-paced and unrelenting pressure. True, nobody puts a gun to the heads of people in my position -- to work in this environment. But many people would like to enjoy some of the benefits that come from this kind of work. Including my wife.
So, again, the question: Is there a parallel for men in the FSU with respect to this kind of work pace? How can I help her understand what I experience when working? To what in Russian life can I refer to in order to help her develop an understanding of this aspect of life -- other than her vegetable garden?
Journeyman
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Journeyman, you need to look around you at the office and ask yourself how many of the men you see have successful marriages.
Would it be impossible for you to cut down the hours to 40 and still make a comfortable living ?
Russians work to live, they do not live to work. That means probably you will not find an example.
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Journeyman,
America is the great country it is because its people works harder than anybody else. You have chosen to fly someone in from a foreign country, to be your life mate. Is she going to stay home for 55 hours? Does she drive? Did she come over to get the left overs? You are very successful because you are a very hard worker. If you were fulfilled socially, you wouldn't take extended vacations 5000 miles away from home. I applaud you on your success, but a new marriage is hard work, you weren't going to give her a mop and see you at 8pm were you? I'm sure she is a beautiful woman, you just caught a fish, now you have to clean it. That's the family side of the equation. Here is the business side of the equation... If you screw this one up, she gets HALF! Best wishes my friend.
Ben Armen
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It sounds to me more like she is bored and lonely than anything. Does she attend ESL classes or have any interest in going back to school or is there anything you can come up with to keep her busier?
VWRW spends about 10 hours a day studying and keeps busy so it is not a problem for me to work long hours when I need to. I am probably around 80 or so hours a week, sometimes more. If it were creating a problem in my homelife I would work less. My wife and my marriage are my top priority but it is just not a problem for us.
Sometimes being busy is not the same as working effeciently. Do some reading on time management and you may find you can cut back on your work hours and get more done. I don't think this is much help but it is all the thoughts I have.
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It all boils down to priorities..
My feeling is that the 'pace' of life in RU is very similar to that here in IT. Personal comes before business.
I personally could not work in the dog-eat-dog corporate environment and would rather settle on a smaller house, a simpler lifestyle and more time with family than being chained to the desk.
I see this as a cry for attention. I have received similar reactions from my wife and have since curbed my hours a good deal. I work from home, and do still put in a lot of hours but at least can spread my free time around a bit and am there when my wife asks me to taste the sauce or needs a few minutes of personal time together.
You may not be her first priority (kids), but she will find ways to make herself your first priority.
fwiw
One suggestion is to talk talk talk about it together and realize that you do have choices.
Excellent topic by the way...
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If it were creating a problem in my homelife I would work less. My wife and my marriage are my top priority but it is just not a problem for us.
Turbo,
Some simply do not have the luxury (and sometimes necessity) of stepping out of the workplace for personal matters. IIRC You've said in the past that your business practically runs itself anyway. That's a perfect environment.
I can only imagine that it can get really really tough otherwise.
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It all boils down to priorities..
My feeling is that the 'pace' of life in RU is very similar to that here in IT. Personal comes before business.
I personally could not work in the dog-eat-dog corporate environment and would rather settle on a smaller house, a simpler lifestyle and more time with family than being chained to the desk.
Excellent topic by the way...
Spot on!
J. and I already have had some discussions about this subject. Right now I don't care so much about the hours. But I told her that if we will have children in the future I want to be a part of their life, and that means that the job can't have first priority during that time.
She also, earlier working as an au-pair, saw the downside of working too long hours. The parents in the family not having any power left to give to their children attention when they came home at night.
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There certainly are men (and women) in FSU who work 55+ weeks and understand the demands of high-earning, high-intensity career. I cannot speak for Ukraine but in Moscow, most corporate jobs require some overtime and if you are on the eve of a major meeting or running the end-of-quarter marathon, you will work a few non-stop 14-hour days without lunch. Some people who live outside of town and stand for 2-3 hours in traffic jams to get to/from work, practically don't see their families. Some guys would even rent a small apartment in the center and stay in it for 5 work days, then go home for weekends to spend time with their wives and kids in a relaxed suburban atmosphere.
In case of your wife, she either has not seen any of her close circle work like that, or simply wants more attention and/or employment. Sending her to school would be a good solution.
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Knowing people both here in the US and in Europe in most cases you will find that here in the US too many of us live to work and it is that over whelming work ethic that makes the fortunes that are here. However in europe you will find more of the attitude of work to live. Spending more time with family and friends rather than being so totally work focused and from my experience when on vacation they are on vacation not taking anything of work with them.
When I first started writting to women in the FSU and described my usual work week many times the response was "when do you rest?" We in the US are seen by the rest of the world as a little too obsessed with work.
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You guys miss the point. The poster never said she was complaining for lack of attention due to his work commitments, he asked for a Russian (FSU) reference point to help explain to her. BTW, Journeyman, you gotchaself a classic. I know exactly what you are speaking of. Mrs I/O is slowly catching on but it takes time.
To answer your question, I think your best reference is the emergency ward at a large hospital in Russia. That is about the only place I can think of that works with any intensity. B/F with all due respect, IMO Russian workers are lazy by comparison to some others. They do long hours but wouldn't know what a days work was if it bit them on the butt. Russia's historic economic woes are not all the fault of the government. How many times have I heard a Russian complain about the low salary they receive. When you suggest to them a part time job in the evening in a bar or similar to earn a little extra they turn green.
If, as everyone has jumped to the conclusion, she is complaining regarding lack of attention or time together, then yes you need to give a bit too and fix that, but the reality is, you need to make a living and she will ultimately have to fit into that one way or another. Believe me, I have had to hand out some fairly tough words to Mrs I/O on the value to our life of my work. Since she started working herself, she is starting to "Get it", but it is a process.
It is not illogical when you think about it because most guys seen to be successful in the east have achieved a fair amount of that success without hard work. I think you understand what I am referring to. Watch the restaurants etc around lunch time in Kiev or Moscow. That will be her picture of success. As we know, the reality in our countries is very different. Russia to an extent, thinks itself is slightly similar to Europe in so far as it thinks it has made it's money, in other words it runs largely on old money streams. America, Aus and others are still busy making theirs, in other words it is relatively new money or new wealth, the difference being, some of the Euros forgot how to make new money and were left behind in the process and are now trying to figure out how to catch up. All of these things feed into their thinking.
Long way to say, point her to an emergency ward in a Russian hospital for some sort of indicator. Be patient, keep chipping away and most of all be consistent. One thing I banned after the first 2 months (Settling in period) was more than 1 minute phone calls during work time. Fortunately, I can take time out from work to drive her somewhere if necessary, but I have always detested lengthly phone calls to or from spouses during the work day. 1 or 2 quick calls for necessities is fine. Nevertheless, one thing I have adjusted is that I start about an hour earlier in the morning now, around 6 and I usually take time out at lunch and we meet, either at home or elsewhere. I'm usually home by 5.30 or 6.00pm. Technology has assisted me a little as I do bring a file or two home and do a little after dinner most evenings. Mrs is fine with that because she usually calls back home about that time so we tend to be in the office together. Journeyman, there is several ways to skin a cat if need be. ;)
I/O
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Journeyman,
There ARE people in FSU who work in very demanding jobs but perhaps your wife hasn't mixed in such circles. She may find it strange though that you seem to ENJOY working like this as I know my wife (who regularly worked 12+ hour days) and my BIL (who is spectacularly successful) despise the lifestyles they lead or are "forced" to lead.
Someone said people there are more likely to work to live, and this came out in an early discussion with my wife on where we would live after marriage. A concern she raised was our future lifestyle as she didn't want our family to work like dogs to pay off debt... instead we should work to "build a life for family" - LIFE being the operative word.
Before marriage I gave up my job traveling throughout Asiapac and trust me the adjustment has not been easy. It was infinitely worth it though because I knew my marriage could not be sustained with the quality we have now if I was not giving my family (including child on the way) the attention they deserve.
You may need to take a breath and have a think about the life you want to live and the family-life you want to foster. My experience in similar fields is that families fracture when all parties aren't focused ON THE FAMILY.
Yes, jobs/career/income/security/etc are all important - but nothing should be more important than your wife.
I'd stop looking for ways to convince her you NEED to do this and find a way to convince yourself there is a better life out there for you.
It's often said this journey takes TIME - and I'd suggest it's not just the time required to get married. I've found it takes much more time to share our lives with our wives once they relocate and give them the attention they deserve. I know my wife reciprocates by dong everything possible to make my life exciting, happy and fulfilled - and I feel I'm just doing my part.
Best of luck.
Kuna
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Another thought...
I/O, I can see what you're saying, and I saw the OP's original questions about finding parallels and ways to explain HIS situation to HER... but I also think the OP still needs to think about why his wife is making these calls with "difficult" discussions during is busy day.
In essence, I, like others, are suggesting to him that he needs to consider his wife's feelings if she feels like she isn't getting sufficient attention, and therefore is compelled to call him many times throughout the day.
The worst thing that could happen is for the OP to find a way to convince her not to call him and she ends up realising "the pool guy" has time to listen to her difficult discussions while her husband is too busy to do so.
Europeans look on work differently, and not always because they're lazy. Often they've just realised there is more to life than a 6 bedroom house, four cars and a boat - while we (Poms, Aussies and yanks) get sucked into "working for the man".
Not everything in the west is better.
Just my thoughts...
Kuna
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I would recommend bringing her to work a few days so she can see what you do. Also, maybe bring her on the road with you. I did that with my ex girlfriend from Kiev. Took her to Poland so she could see how I ran a 100 plus person shared service center. It kind of backfired on me as I had about 30 very attractive tall young educated Polish girls and about 100 average looking Polish girls. Became very jealous (which I liked). But she was impressed how I had highly educated directors and managers plus staff under my control. She liked the fact we processed more than 500,000 transactions a month and paid billions of supplier payments and collected billions of cash in a year. She understood after I physically showed her why some times I was busy but she also understood I delegated control down and treated my workers to a normal work life balance by always looking for ways to do things better. Russian women are curious so show her how you work. A lot better than telling her.
In Ukraine most of the successful people I know spend more time on building relationships. That is how business is down there. So they do not sit in the office all day. I have worked for several fortune 100 companies at VP levels (including General Electric and I am a former big 4 CPA Sr manager) and find that 80% of what people in western Europe, USA, and Asia do is not value added. Sit in meeting after meeting or analyze to much. I think people tend to work a lot of wasted hours but most lawyers and CPAS waste a lot of time. I make very good money by simplifying things and eliminating waste. I have not found a person yet I cannot reduce 50% of their prior hours within 3 months and it impacts their performance. So really analyze why your working so much.
66 hour weeks - I would encourage starting work at 6:00am and your done at 6:00pm and on Saturdays and Sundays work from 6am to 9am when she is sleeping. I am sure your division is global so starting at 6am puts you into a better time zone with your Asian workers. Get a house close to work will help too. A lot of people in China and Japan work long hours too. But there more book smart and not street smart.
If you work a lot, most Russian women will not like that (even most American women). You do not have to work a lot to be successful.
Marrying a sincere woman from another country will require you to have a career where your not always working. She came to your country to be with you.
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This is a tough one, especially during the first year of marriage.
When my wife first arrived it was not easy for her to keep busy during the day, even with English lessons. Each day at 5PM she'd send me "PLEASE COME HOME" messages. I quickly changed many work habits - e.g., I worked through my lunch hour, set up wifi and virtual office so I could work more from home, woke up earlier and started my workday at 8AM rather than 9.
I'd agree w/Kuna that if a young, beautiful woman isn't having her needs met there's always the danger that someone else can fulfill those needs, regardless of how devoted she is. An good explanation or demonstration of why you need to work so long and hard might bring understanding on an intellectual level, but if she's not getting what she needs emotionally, all the 'splaining in the world won't do much good. There's a fine line between someone who is too clingy and someone who cherishes time together and expects more...
Regardless, I wish you and your wife the best of luck in working this out.
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Many years ago I was facing a dilemma: should I work my a$$ off (more than my usual fits and bursts) for some years, in order to reach eventually a higher position/income ::)? I was divorced at the time, so no family life to possibly compromise as a result.
After much deliberation I decided NOT to, considering that, in the meantime:
- I would not be really LIVING.
- My life goals/priorities might change, and later I would be left wondering about, and possibly regretting, the effort spent in a now hollow pursuit.
A (Southern) European's perspective, mind you ;D.
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Regarding the European work mentality, studies have proven that anything more than 9 hours is a waste of time.
While the Dutch work relatively less hours (36-40 regular) their productivity is in the top of the world statistics.
I have worked my share of long hours, and probably you will see my working hours even longer at the current time, just I have the priviledge to work from home.
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I have been bumping up against this same issue. Currently long hours are no longer needed for me, but when I was building my business 80 hour weeks were the norm.
Statements made that are of a different view than the west.
You are the boss, you should be able to do what you want.
You are the boss, you should dress like one. (I own a computer game company, shorts and t-shirts are considered "Black Tie").
The concept of working 2 years with no income to build a future is completely foreign.
The concept of business worth, vs owning a house is foreign.
I have not met a FSU women who thinks "RICH" is assets, instead they view RICH as cars , houses, vacations.
I do disagree slightly, We should find ways to explain the why we do what we do, but then include our women in the choice we make, I.E. is more money worth more hours at work, less hours with family.
The one thing I saw that shows the difference in my mind, is good western workers look for ways to make work better, and more productive. When I see most waiters in the FSU try to always be busy, but then not see them multitask, and not be able to keep up with 2 tables. It amazes me. To ask for a cup of coffee, and see a waiter wait for the one cup, bring it to you, and then go on to the next single task.
I do wonder how long the adjustment will take when Alyona gets here before she sees the difference.
Dale
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Journeyman, don't let the American machine suck you in and kill you. The macroeconomics of what's happening is our relentlessly declining standard of living (meaning requiring huge amounts of hours, and usually dual incomes, to maintain standard of living we had 20 years with one income and 40 hours. But that's another thread)
You are a work-aholic. No question about it. You now have a beautiful new wife. What are your priorities? The marriages of the majority of work-aholics are doomed. Been there, done that.
I was definitely a work-aholic during my first marriage. Always 60+ hrs and more per week, constant stress, traveling,.
Now, I earn 45% less than I did then, I work at home most of the time, and I try to do as little as possible (yes, that's true) for as much as I can get. My goal is to get paid the most for doing nothing if I can.
And I am HAPPY !! I have the greatest relationship with my wife, I enjoy her all the time, she's my best friend (this is on a DAILY basis), and I wouldn't change anything.
You could have this too. But the machine has got you in its claws. We are the hardest working people in the world now because we are desperate.
Really, you need to think about what's important in life for you ... and make it happen. My advice? Put your woman and your marriage first about everything and anything else. And not just in words, but in deeds.
I sincerely wish you luck, and I know what you're going through.
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Regarding the European work mentality, studies have proven that anything more than 9 hours is a waste of time.
While the Dutch work relatively less hours (36-40 regular) their productivity is in the top of the world statistics.
I have worked my share of long hours, and probably you will see my working hours even longer at the current time, just I have the priviledge to work from home.
Good point Shadow,
When I was a young salesman I was always reading different ideas about business and sales.
I am going to paraphrase:
Hank Trisler said
"Great salesmen don't work 16 hours they only work 8 and then only under duress.
and this
"Where ever you are be there" if you are at work don't dream about being somewhere else, and
when you are on vacation or with love ones don't think about the office."
I have worked long hours before and over a hundred and ten days in a row without a day off. I worked
two shifts 7 days a week for months and months before.
I paid my dues and I know how to work like this if it's incredibly important, but is it really incredibly important?
That is the question.
Just my two kopecks,
Bill
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It has now been about 24 hours since my original post. Thank you all who took time to reply.
Congratulations to I/O ... (and thank you) ............. in that he was the single one who read my post carefully and then responded to the question in a thoughtful and thorough manner. Honorable mentions go to both Bluesfairy and bgreed, as well.
As I/O correctly observed, I did not ask for counseling, only information. Many others appear to have fallen into the common trap of projecting either your own problems or those of others onto the simple facts that I listed for you. Apparently, I also needed to state earlier that my wife is not complaing about a lack of attention, and no, we do not have any problems related to my work, nor an otherwise problematic marriage, and that in spite of my work, I balance home life and work fairly well, etc., etc. But, nobody should have to consume time writing proleptic prose in anticipation of responses from people who might be watching too much Dr. Phil.
Simply, I was asking for help to spot examples of similar working conditions to which my wife could more easily relate. She and I have worked hard together to create a more common frame of reference in many areas, and this issue seemed to lend itself also to such a simple solution -- citing examples in the FSU that she could more readily understand. Not everybody who comes to this forum is looking for or in need of unsolicited advise. My wife and I are quite happy together and living in a good marriage. I now suppose that somebody will want to argue with that, and say that it is impossible, etc., etc. If so, you presume way, way too much about both the facts and your ability to somehow intuit the truth.
Now, since it is true that I am busy, and that I need to use my time efficiently, I will once again invite others to offer additional examples of similar work in the FSU. Otherwise, I don't have time to respond to people who miss the point of my original post. I'd rather spend time with my wife. ;)
Journeyman
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Journeyman, if you want examples, think about a bank clerk in Russia. They are constantly busy with clients waiting and handling money, at the end of the day they have to count all their balances.
As they are constantly in contact with clients, there is little time for them to take a phone call.
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It has now been about 24 hours since my original post. Thank you all who took time to reply.
Congratulations to I/O ... (and thank you) ............. in that he was the single one who read my post carefully and then responded to the question in a thoughtful and thorough manner. Honorable mentions go to both Bluesfairy and bgreed, as well.
As I/O correctly observed, I did not ask for counseling, only information. Many others appear to have fallen into the common trap of projecting either your own problems or those of others onto the simple facts that I listed for you. Apparently, I also needed to state earlier that my wife is not complaing about a lack of attention, and no, we do not have any problems related to my work, nor an otherwise problematic marriage, and that in spite of my work, I balance home life and work fairly well, etc., etc. But, nobody should have to consume time writing proleptic prose in anticipation of responses from people who might be watching too much Dr. Phil.
Simply, I was asking for help to spot examples of similar working conditions to which my wife could more easily relate. She and I have worked hard together to create a more common frame of reference in many areas, and this issue seemed to lend itself also to such a simple solution -- citing examples in the FSU that she could more readily understand. Not everybody who comes to this forum is looking for or in need of unsolicited advise. My wife and I are quite happy together and living in a good marriage. I now suppose that somebody will want to argue with that, and say that it is impossible, etc., etc. If so, you presume way, way too much about both the facts and your ability to somehow intuit the truth.
Now, since it is true that I am busy, and that I need to use my time efficiently, I will once again invite others to offer additional examples of similar work in the FSU. Otherwise, I don't have time to respond to people who miss the point of my original post. I'd rather spend time with my wife. ;)
Journeyman
You're a swell guy, journey man !! And thanks for taking the time to insult anyone who bothered responding to you !!
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You're a swell guy, journey man !! And thanks for taking the time to insult anyone who bothered responding to you !!
steviej,
Threads do often take tangents.. it's quite normal and nothing to get upset about for sure.
Lots of good thoughts in this thread.. I found it useful.
If someone really wants to avoid such use a poll instead..
"Do you know any FSU jobs that require hard work and long hours?"
Yes - post the job/position
No - then STFU
:cheesygrin:
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then STFU
BC: I try, I really do, but these stupid wardens at the asylum, leave my gate unlocked sometimes and ya know, the sunshine is so tempting and when I goes for me walk, they leave this 'puter thing just inside the 9" razor wire. Kinda fun to see who I can annoy. Bugger, their coming again with that white coat with the long strings on it and those 'lectric prod things........................................
I/O
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Bugger, their coming again with that white coat with the long strings on it and those 'lectric prod things........................................
I/O
Awww... they just want to give you a hug...
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Awww... they just want to give you a hug...
~OMG~ They're poofters...!!!
I/O
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Journeyman, looking at your ability to draw inference from a learned info and your bottomless tolerance to other people's ideas I am not surprised that you need to work the long hours to obtain the results you wish to get.
From I/O: Believe me, I have had to hand out some fairly tough words to Mrs I/O on the value to our life of my work. Since she started working herself, she is starting to "Get it", but it is a process.
From Journeyman: I will once again invite others to offer additional examples of similar work in the FSU.
vwrw:Journeyman, if you indeed had found I/O's post to be good one why did you not read his post as carefully as I/O read yours?
Neither examples of similar work in the FSU nor fairly tough words are going to convince your wife to change her opinion; only experience of being successful in business or possessing of high-developed conceptual skills or exposure to cognitive therapy may help your wife to appreciate your attitudes and understand why you have to do that what you do.
In your case where wife prefers to be kept (understanding through experience is not an option) and where wife has insufficiently developed conceptual skills (if she had good conceptual skills she would have comprehended your attitudes independently and not have needed your explanations) all you can do is to resort to the cognitive therapy.
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In your case where wife prefers to be kept (understanding through experience is not an option) and where wife has insufficiently developed conceptual skills (if she had good conceptual skills she would have comprehended your attitudes independently and not have needed your explanations) all you can do is to resort to the cognitive therapy.
wow.. now that's a bunch of malarkey...
has little or nothing to do with her cognitive or conceptual skills... Haven't met her but am quite sure she knows black from white and things like happy or unhappy.. It's all a matter of adjusting her priorities to those of her husband and/or vice versa to find good middle ground they both can stand on.
I can not think of any jobs overseas I have witnessed first hand that come close to matching the corporate rat race in the US.
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VWRW, wow, your analysis is quite severe! Now the poor lady has low IQ, low empathy, AND prefers being kept; how come you already know so much about her having so little introductory information? Your own conceptual skills can go very far, I see. ;D
Perhaps more likely, super-busy people were not common among her environment and seeing her husband work his a$$ off like that baffles her and fills her heart with pity. The idea that hard all-absorbing work can actually be enjoyed does not come naturally to everyone, especially if their own friends and relatives did not enjoy their employment and reduced it to a required minimum. I, personally, have seen people working 11 hours per day and thoroughly enjoying it. Start-up business owners, for example - I'm sure they are similar in any country.
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wow.. now that's a bunch of malarkey...
BC, which exactly part of my post is the malarkey?
I am also quite sure she knows black from white and things like happy or unhappy. Even little children can distinguish between the things. Moreover, some of the little children even understand that parents need to work hard and sometimes long hours to generate enough money to buy toys. In my opinion if a woman is not able to understand what even little kids can understand then the woman need developmental training.
B/F, Journeyman said that his wife was essentially a "kept woman," in prior marriage. It seems to me that she may be a "kept woman", now too.
From B/F: The idea that hard all-absorbing work can actually be enjoyed does not come naturally to everyone, especially if their own friends and relatives did not enjoy their employment and reduced it to a required minimum.
B/F, I agree with you that the idea that hard all-absorbing work can actually be enjoyable does not come naturally to everyone. If the woman could not understand how her husband can enjoy his hard work it could be one case; but the problem is that she can not understand that to make good money most people really do need to work hard and that her husband can be really busy when he is at work.
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I know that I had a problem like this several years ago. I was working at what is called the "National Security Complex", we were not allowed to use our cellphones. We had to turn them off and leave them in our cars. Hummers with electronic equipment would randomly drive through the parking lots. If it flagged your car, you would be called to let them in. If when they checked the call log you had made or received a call during working ours, you were fired. No questions asked. My girlfriend at the time could not get it through her head that I couldn't get calls on my cell during the day. :wallbash: To this day, I still don't think she every really understood. I know this doesn't offer any help, but I can empathize with you.
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At some point of my career as an assistant accountant we had some project needed to be finished . We were doing about 80 hours a week (5 of us). Since it was project related and we knew the faster we work the sooner we will finish (took around 4 months) we did not spend any time on chatting or tea drinking etc.
P.S. I have had three different people working with Americans saying that they are very hard working but very unefficient. Like to work for the sake of working and do not like make things simpler. I can say about the English they definetely over-complicate things (unnesassery paperwork and meetings). hence a lot of time wasted.
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P.S. I have had three different people working with Americans saying that they are very hard working but very unefficient. Like to work for the sake of working and do not like make things simpler. I can say about the English they definetely over-complicate things (unnesassery paperwork and meetings). hence a lot of time wasted.
Oh may be it is not as much American or English as corporate blame culture I don't know.
You know email instead of phone to have a paper proof, copy email to everyone you can think of to avoid attitudes, meeting instead of gathering opnions and deciding oneself to shift responcibility...All takes time...Guilty muself...
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BC, which exactly part of my post is the malarkey?
The paragraph of your post that I quoted.
Was my response not clear?
Lets put it this way.. I myself worked for a while in such an environment. Since my priorities in life were not compatible I walked away. I've had a standing offer for several years to go back with a considerable increase in income, but I respectfully decline when reminded.
I simply cannot adjust to that environment anymore. Ask anyone who for several years successfully jumped the gap from employee to gainful self employment. Ask them if they would consider punching a time clock again..
Throughout life we build our little list of life priorities.. It can be extremely difficult if asked to throw some of them out. It's not an overnight thing.. More like years.
One of the foremost thoughts that helped me decide to form a family again, is that I now have time for them.. this was compatible with my wife's priorities.
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One of the foremost thoughts that helped me decide to form a family again, is that I now have time for them.. this was compatible with my wife's priorities.
This is exactly how I am thinking! Either I go the career path or I go for creating a new family.
Going through a divorce makes you think a lot about your current situation and what you want to do in the future! I did a lot of hard thinking and came out on the other side with some answers, that I will try to go trough with. I realized that the most important thing for me is family life. The options was finding a woman that already has a child or to find a younger woman that wants to create a family. After a lot of soulsearching I opted for the second alternative.
Since I allready have a son from my former marriage I know that Im not really fair just searching for a woman without children. But that is my deliberate choise. Sorry, life is not allways fair!
I also realized that if I was going to commit to a woman fron FSU she would need love and support much more than a lot of money. I know it is a balance, you need to have a fair amount of money to support her integration to her new society. Fortunately I have some money in the bank and a decent middle managemanet job in sales & marketing. and no debts!
I have also described my financial situation in big terms to my girl, without going in to spedifics.
I would never go trough with this if i was not sure I could pull it off financially. Some recent post here has shown what can happen if you pull up a girl from her environment and then are not willing to make the financial "sacrifice" to stand by her and support her integration in to her new environment! That is the worst thing you can do to a girl, be a man and take your responsibility, including the financial responsibility, or forget about the whole thing!
Anyway, sorry got a bit off topic there, the most important thing is that you and your woman have the same thoughts about what economic level you want to be at and to what price. This is something that should be discussed long before any K 1 or engagement, because it is such a fundemental queastion.
I have allready said that I will not work more than my 40 hour week, if we will have small children in the house. This also means that I may have to pass on some promotions during this time. This is of course my own decisions, but I have put it very straight to J. that this is nothing that I will compromise with!
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Throughout life we build our little list of life priorities.. It can be extremely difficult if asked to throw some of them out. It's not an overnight thing.. More like years.
BC, I agree that each of us builds his/her little list of life priorities and that it is extremely difficult to throw some of the priorities out. However, Journeyman does not ask his wife to re-rank her priorities or throw some of them out. He asks her to open her mind and understand that notwithstanding that he does not work at daycare as a nurse he still have to put a lot of efforts to accomplish his work tasks; that notwithstanding that he is not Ukraine woman working 2 or 3 jobs he still needs to work hard for a living and keeping his position and reputation in company.
Anyway…how do your recollection about your achievements in your past and your opinion about priorities support your assertion that the paragraph of my post that you quoted is the malarkey?
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I'd rather spend time with my wife. ;)
:cluebat:
Then do it - and stop posting on forums looking for ways to have her stop contacting you while you're at work!!!
You do have a pool don't you?
;) 8) :P
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Anyway…how do your recollection about your achievements in your past and your opinion about priorities support your assertion that the paragraph of my post that you quoted is the malarkey?
I am at a loss how I can explain it better than I already have without complicating matters even more.. I seems Blues Fairy caught my 'drift' fairly well and provided an example from her experience.. maybe reading her post as well will help make things more clear for you. I believe we were both saying the same thing.
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Journeyman, how many times a day does she call you at work?
What does she want to talk about exactly?
How long has she been in the US?
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Awww... they just want to give you a hug...
BC, I/O: Ronnie says, "... the female brain naturally releases oxytocin after a 20-second hug. ... " I want one too !!!
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BC, I/O: Ronnie says, "... the female brain naturally releases oxytocin after a 20-second hug. ... " I want one too !!!
Read bold above.. -go shake a stick.
:whirling:
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BC, I/O: Ronnie says, "... the female brain naturally releases oxytocin after a 20-second hug. ... " I want one too !!!
Read bold above.. -go shake a stick.
You mean we don't get this rush? Man, what a rip off!
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Read bold above.. -go shake a stick.
:whirling:
Steviej meant he wants a female brain. :cheesygrin:
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Humm, I can see if my ex-wife wants to donate her brain to him. She never used it much anyway.
Journeyman, Since with the exception of I/O we are all too stupid to understand what you were really asking I am not sure if it is worth trying to put anymore input into your problem.
Sometimes just as a health problem in one part of the body can cause a symptom in another part of the body, it is just possible you are the one who doesn't understand the problem.
One comment that a former pro speaker friend of mine said one time that stuck was this. He commented that "one of the most popular tools in America is the 3/8" cordless electric drill". Then he added "The funny thing is no one really wants a 3/8" cordless electric drill, people really want a 3/8" hole". Sometimes what people ask for is not what they really want.
First off since you run this 100 million dollar division what the heck does it matter if everyone else is working their tail off. You de boss, man! or so you tell us. You are there for your brain not to slave away. It sounds like you are either totally disorganized or more likely a micro manager who can not delegate. People who RUN a 100 million dollar division should be able to prioritize their life and your priorities suck.
The way business changes these days, both that division and your job won't be there 10 or 20 years from now and if you don't make time for your wife, she won't be there either. Yes, I am sure there will be other companies and other jobs, better or worse but wives are meant to hang around for a while. If you can't make time to talk to her for a few minutes a few times a day even if it is about nothing the problem is not a need to find some experience she can relate to in her home country. The problem is you have really f--ked up priorities. It almost sounds to me like you don't feel real capable of running the 100 million dollar division and are trying to make up for it by working yourself to death.
Perhaps the reason we all were too stupid to see what you where asking is because we were smart enough to see the real problem.
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including outside professionals and direct reports, all work 55+ hours per week on average.
I frequently work more hours than that per week, but I work at least half (sometimes more)
of my time at home.
Working 55+ hours per week away from your wife doesn't bode well for an international
marriage. She will need you more frequently than you can imagine.
NEVER EVER let your FSUW stay bored and alone at home.
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and beware her jealous, back-stabbing Russian "Friends"
ponelle?
I don wanna steal yur 'Rizz' ''Bra....
only 'Respect 'Bra!!!
Some of them Russian Wimmin are 'freakin EXACTLY like 'Natasha on 'Rocky and BullWinkle"
EXACTLY!!!
you get a big, strong one...
and when you go on a "CRIME SPREE" they'll wanna come along TO!!!
you know, like J-Walking...
both ways...
yeah, pretty wild, right?
it's crazy man!
she's Bonny...
and I'm "Collide"...
and I'm just a J-Walkin' Fool...
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and beware her jealous, back-stabbing Russian "Friends"
ponelle?
Pravda! YA ponimayu
Absolutely true, I have met enough of them to last a life time.
Angel Eyes is pretty good at weeding out Russians.
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Is there any parallel for men or women in the FSU regarding the intense pace at work that some of us experience in the United States? If so, even though I have been traveling to the FSU and interacting with Russian folks since 2000, I have not yet seen any corollaries in their country. I think that I must have just missed something.
I work in a professional environment (executives, lawyers, CPAs, bankers, etc.), and run a corporate division with an annual volume of $100 million and growing. The people with whom I interact, including outside professionals and direct reports, all work 55+ hours per week on average. Sometimes more, rarely less. All are working in 4th gear constantly, and many go into overdrive for hours or days at a time. Rarely, rarely, can anybody coast, even for a day. One lawyer (outside counsel) with whom I work closely works nearly ALL his waking hours, and is never disconnected fully from his practice, and ends up working regularly on his "vacations" (for which I have had to apologize to him from time to time -- for keeping him so busy). I'm sure this is a familiar theme to some of you who are reading this.
I am finding that my Russian wife just doesn't seem to understand that when I am at the office or on the road, I am really working hard. I am not playing golf, not sitting at a restaurant tipping a few with other businessmen, and not just hanging out with the boss. It just seems that she doesn't have any frame of reference for understanding this kind of work. Granted, she knows a few Russian WOMEN back in Ukraine who are sometimes working 2 or 3 jobs to make ends meet. However, it doesn't seem that she thinks it possible that a successful MAN actually "works" hard for a living. Sometimes very hard. I get the impression that she thinks that a man who wears a suit to the office has somehow "made it" and can thereafter simply "coast" once he arrives at his place of work. She will think nothing of launching into a lenthy, difficult conversation on the telephone in the middle of my work day, as though I have nothing better to do. If I tell her I am really busy, but want to continue the conversation later when I get home, she sometimes responds ......"how can you be so busy, you aren't a mother with a child." BTW, we don't have children (not yet). She is in her early thirties and has never had what we would call a career, or had steady employment for years at a time. Of course, simply that is a rather difficult thing to come by for many Ukrainians. In her prior marriage, she was essentially a "kept woman." She admits that she is a little spoiled, but I would not regard her wants or attitudes toward material things as excessive. Still, I keep thinking that she has to understand that a man doesn't make good money by simply "showing up" for work.
Naturally, I keep finding that her frame of reference for many things is limited, of course, to those things in her prior experiences in Ukraine. However, even with respect to successful men in Ukriane, she seems to think that they just "enjoy" their status, cheat on their wives with younger girls, and drink expensive vodka and cognac, etc., but not really work. Maybe that is true? A continually vigorous pace of work just seems to be "foreign" to her -- except when she worked in her vegetable garden at her parents dacha, working all day long tending to the plants and vegetables. However, I have also heard of similar stories of Russian women who have come to this country, getting an opportunity to work at either an entry level (say, a bank teller), or perhaps even a significant level (say, a physician), and then are shocked to find how intense the work situation is here -- fast-paced and unrelenting pressure. True, nobody puts a gun to the heads of people in my position -- to work in this environment. But many people would like to enjoy some of the benefits that come from this kind of work. Including my wife.
So, again, the question: Is there a parallel for men in the FSU with respect to this kind of work pace? How can I help her understand what I experience when working? To what in Russian life can I refer to in order to help her develop an understanding of this aspect of life -- other than her vegetable garden?
Journeyman
I think this is all very true, the Ukrainian girl I am with doesn't really seem to understand that there is such a thing as having to 'work' again least unban environment where you just can't sit around having calls with her and long lengthy chat at any time if the day, at work or at home when resting it bedding to do chores. She has come around a bit but seeing as people know on here that I don't exactly have a very hard paced work, work, work lifestyle it is kind of surprising. In many ways I am lucky to be able to spend some time at work on communication with her, many Employers here in the UK would throw a wobbler if they saw you communicating at work on anything other than work and even fire you from your job without much warning. So a lot of my time with my girl has to be scheduled and I think at first she found it odd and difficult to understand that I had to schedule time with her to make any time with her possibly for communication or in person.
The US is probably even more faced paced than here from what I have heard though that's probably place and workplace dependent. I think someone with a heavy schedule such as OP above will have a hard time with many FSW with them comprehending the situation, how life is in the West. It just kind of makes he laugh that even my fairly easy going pace of life is seen as a bit full on in the FSU lol.
The Jealousy thing with friends in my present relationship I have come across though fortunately (as far as I know do far) I have been lucky enough on that front, their has only been one jealous friend I know off and she is stuck back in Ukraine keeping her out of trouble. Some initial long distance trouble making from her but fortunately my girl didn't buy it and things have moved on now though. In a previous relationship 'kherson girl' mentioned what some of her friends/people she knew thought of me, even though again they had not met me. Whether true or made up the potential for bs from so called friends about you and your relationship is a potential iceberg for many a relationship with a FSW I feel. Either she is into you enough and not paranoid enough to not believe them or she believes then and it torpedoes your relationship, not the kind of helpful people you need around :-\
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In a previous relationship 'kherson girl' mentioned what some of her friends/people she knew thought of me, even though again they had not met me.
I remember my first sex with a girl too, it was sooooo fun and exciting. I never felt the
compulsion to talk about her ad infinitum. I never analyzed it to death. I never related
that to any another relationship in my entire life.
You overthink things far too much and while I am sure you have fond memories, you
need to move on from that girl.
Udachi!
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I remember my first sex with a girl too, it was sooooo fun and exciting. I never felt the
compulsion to talk about her ad infinitum. I never analyzed it to death. I never related
that to any another relationship in my entire life.
You overthink things far too much and while I am sure you have fond memories, you
need to move on from that girl.
Udachi!
I've moved on from that girl but it happens to be the case that the situation was one where a lot of learning took place. I've had other experiences with other FSW and occasionally I bring up them also.