Poroshenko claims Ukraine is now being offered weapons by NATO.

[missAmeno]

Yes they were.

Really? So you know better how I felt about Russia and Russians prior invasion and after? You know better how my brothers, parents, grandmother, uncles, aunties, cousins, nieces, etc felt about Russia and Russians prior invasion and after? You know better how most Ukrainians felt about Russia and Russians prior invasion and after?

One more time, specially for you ... Russia has now made millions of enemies it didn't previously have!

[lordtiberius]

[lordtiberius]

Why don't we give Ukraine US Army War surplus from the Sierra Army Depot to Ukraine?  It costs the US $ 0.

[AC]

US Tanks have been sent to the Baltic states and Poland:

http://www.reuters.com/video/2014/10/15/us-sends-ironhorse-tanks-to-natos-nervou?videoId=346583242

[lordtiberius]

So typical of Team Obama doing everything short of what is necessary

[Muzh]

So typical of Team Obama doing everything short of what is necessary

So you would fight a fire with a bucket of kerosene.


Is that smart?

[lordtiberius]

You are defending Obama?  You must really like golf.

[AC]

So typical of Team Obama doing everything short of what is necessary

I am not defending Obama's policies as I personally would like to see him do much more to assist Ukraine by giving them some of the weapons which they asked for; however keep in mind that Ukraine is not a member of NATO and so if weapons are being given to Ukraine, more than likely this is happening through back channels and will be denied officially.  If the USA were to officially give weapons to Ukraine the logic of the Obama administration is apparently they feel it might start WWIII with Russia.

However sending tanks to the Baltic states and Poland is an incredibly important step to not only reassure our allies there but to also send a clear message to Putin that the USA as a senior member of NATO will defend any NATO member against Russian aggression.

[fathertime]

   If the USA were to officially give weapons to Ukraine the logic of the Obama administration is apparently they feel it might start WWIII with Russia.

If indeed this a part of the logic they are basing their decisions on, it seems logical enough to me...from my viewpoint this conflict isn't worth WWIII......It is also possible that they feel sending weapons would only escalate and widen the conflict. 


Fathertime!   

[AC]

If indeed this a part of the logic they are basing their decisions on, it seems logical enough to me...from my viewpoint this conflict isn't worth WWIII......It is also possible that they feel sending weapons would only escalate and widen the conflict. 


Fathertime!

I believe that at the very least Ukraine needs and should get defensive weapons including better tanks to make sure that Putler does not get his land bridge to Crimea.  Keep the Russian terrorists stopped and the conflict "frozen" where it's at.  Russia started this war by first invading and annexing Crimea and then by invading Eastern Ukraine; all orchestrated by their intelligence agency the FSB.

The world has changed since the days of the Soviet Union when guys like Putin could get away with telling whoppers to his population.  Now with the advent of the internet some of his worst enemies are the very Russian soldiers who he sent into Ukraine (allegedly they got lost, or they are on some sort of vacation) who use social media to brag about their exploits as he tries to deny their very presence.

So no, it's not going to widen the conflict if Ukraine gets all of the weapons they need to defend their lands, it's going to contain it.  Over time the sanctions will bring Russia to the bargaining table.  Until then Ukraine should be given any and all weapons they need.

[Photo Guy]

I agree, but Putin is mad. He is paranoid about NATO and especially the US. He sees Ukraine's turn towards the West as a 'taking' of HIS Soviet Union. Russian media is constantly saying the USA is a major threat. Propaganda- for what insane purpose?
What if Yanukovych told him it is all a US plot? Yes, I can picture him doing that and fueling his paranoia. Putin will not entertain the idea that Kievan Rus is rejecting him, through their own thinking. 

[fathertime]

So no, it's not going to widen the conflict if Ukraine gets all of the weapons they need to defend their lands, it's going to contain it.  Over time the sanctions will bring Russia to the bargaining table.  Until then Ukraine should be given any and all weapons they need.

Lets consider a couple factors here.   


1.   Quite a few people here and elsewhere have compared Putin to Hitler, meaning that he has a screw or two loose....I don't know for sure if that is just propaganda or if he is crazy.  I still lean towards thinking that it is propaganda....but have not ruled out it being true.


2.  We (the USA) have placed tightening sanctions on Russia....he also placed onerous sanctions on Japan prior to them reacting....Japan decided to lash out at us when they hit Pearl Harbor...they did not bend to our will or come back to the bargaining table.  I would say that trying to back Putin into a corner  is not the way to handle this, as it is too risky.  He has already openly discussed the Nuclear abilities of his nation several times, which in itself is a ratcheting up of the ante. If any lashing out occurs now, it could be dozens of times worse than Pearl Harbor...at best.   


Overall, Ukraine isn't important enough strategically (to us), to risk wider conflict.  To Russia this land is very important, and I remain convinced they aren't going to leave until they get a good percentage of what they want.  Ukraine is stuck in the middle. In addition to this,  If we were to arm the Ukrainians, I believe Russia would ramp up it's participation and the dead would increase significantly.  I continue to hold that those two nations have to work this out themselves and we can stay on Ukraine's 'side' as can other nations, but only to a point, and it will only help so much.  One thing we (the west) can do, is prevent this from happening again, by helping other border nations to be better prepared....ultimately large predator nations like Russia, China, and the USA, are going to get away with more than others like, but the alternative is even worse.   


Fathertime!   

[AC]

There is no hard evidence that Putin is crazy.  On the contrary there is evidence that he is simply the classic bully, who will pick on smaller ones provided that nobody else stops him.  Once his own nose is bloodied than like most bullies he suddenly becomes a coward.  Ukraine has been bloodying his nose pretty good, what with all the dead Russians going back home, or wherever they're going.

The West cannot stand idly by and do nothing except for sanctions.  Whether it's the USA or other NATO members; Ukraine should receive the heavy weapons they need in order to protect their sovereign land.

In a few weeks time there should be a tidal wave of change in the US Congress; hopefully Congress will then be able to bypass the lame duck Obama, or better yet impeach him.  Either way change is a coming, and it will likely be a good thing for Ukraine as well.

I noticed that Canada so far seems to be doing the most to arm and otherwise help Ukraine, and I applaud them for that. 

[calmissile]

There is no hard evidence that Putin is crazy.  On the contrary there is evidence that he is simply the classic bully, who will pick on smaller ones provided that nobody else stops him.  Once his own nose is bloodied than like most bullies he suddenly becomes a coward.  Ukraine has been bloodying his nose pretty good, what with all the dead Russians going back home, or wherever they're going.

The West cannot stand idly by and do nothing except for sanctions.  Whether it's the USA or other NATO members; Ukraine should receive the heavy weapons they need in order to protect their sovereign land.

In a few weeks time there should be a tidal wave of change in the US Congress; hopefully Congress will then be able to bypass the lame duck Obama, or better yet impeach him.  Either way change is a coming, and it will likely be a good thing for Ukraine as well.

I noticed that Canada so far seems to be doing the most to arm and otherwise help Ukraine, and I applaud them for that.

Agree 100%.  My hats off to the Canadians.

[lordtiberius]

Lets consider a couple factors here.   


1.   Quite a few people here and elsewhere have compared Putin to Hitler, meaning that he has a screw or two loose....I don't know for sure if that is just propaganda or if he is crazy.  I still lean towards thinking that it is propaganda....but have not ruled out it being true.


2.  We (the USA) have placed tightening sanctions on Russia....he also placed onerous sanctions on Japan prior to them reacting....Japan decided to lash out at us when they hit Pearl Harbor...they did not bend to our will or come back to the bargaining table.  I would say that trying to back Putin into a corner  is not the way to handle this, as it is too risky.  He has already openly discussed the Nuclear abilities of his nation several times, which in itself is a ratcheting up of the ante. If any lashing out occurs now, it could be dozens of times worse than Pearl Harbor...at best.   


Overall, Ukraine isn't important enough strategically (to us), to risk wider conflict.  To Russia this land is very important, and I remain convinced they aren't going to leave until they get a good percentage of what they want.  Ukraine is stuck in the middle. In addition to this,  If we were to arm the Ukrainians, I believe Russia would ramp up it's participation and the dead would increase significantly.  I continue to hold that those two nations have to work this out themselves and we can stay on Ukraine's 'side' as can other nations, but only to a point, and it will only help so much.  One thing we (the west) can do, is prevent this from happening again, by helping other border nations to be better prepared....ultimately large predator nations like Russia, China, and the USA, are going to get away with more than others like, but the alternative is even worse.   


Fathertime!

Are there a set of circumstances that would justify a Russian nuclear first strike?

Why do voices inside the Kremlin (notably Kiselov) who keep bringing up Nuclear weapons?

Given your interactions with the Russian community, are they comfortable using nuclear weapons on their opponents?  Tactical and strategic?

Do you acknowledge the presence of GRU and Russian Army regulars operating in Ukraine?

Are there things worth fighting WWIII over?

[lordtiberius]

The West cannot stand idly by and do nothing except for sanctions.  Whether it's the USA or other NATO members; Ukraine should receive the heavy weapons they need in order to protect their sovereign land.

In a few weeks time there should be a tidal wave of change in the US Congress; hopefully Congress will then be able to bypass the lame duck Obama, or better yet impeach him.  Either way change is a coming, and it will likely be a good thing for Ukraine as well.

I noticed that Canada so far seems to be doing the most to arm and otherwise help Ukraine, and I applaud them for that.

But the West is sitting idly by and you cannot blame Obama.  The Poles have 4 spies in Belarus that they won't even ask to negotiate a trade.  We have a Russian nuclear sub stuck in Swedish waters.  Canada is sending aid.  Whoopty do.

Weak

And most people can't be bothered with this stuff . . .

We criticize the Russians for being morally aloof at the suffering they inflict on their neighbors but what about us exactly is laudable?

[AC]

But the West is sitting idly by and you cannot blame Obama.  The Poles have 4 spies in Belarus that they won't even ask to negotiate a trade.  We have a Russian nuclear sub stuck in Swedish waters.  Canada is sending aid.  Whoopty do.

Weak

And most people can't be bothered with this stuff . . .

We criticize the Russians for being morally aloof at the suffering they inflict on their neighbors but what about us exactly is laudable?

I'm not sure I follow you.  I do personally blame Obama for not assisting Ukraine.  If Romney was President, as his wife recently said; Putin would not have invaded Ukraine, as he would have known that there would have been real repercussions.  The sanctions are good, but not good enough.

I also blame those who voted for Obama; perhaps not the first time around, but definitely the second time around.

[lordtiberius]

Maybe the smart money is with Doll and her Compadres.  Their leader is singular in his purpose.  We can't even agree on what to do what is most obvious - Regime change.

[Photo Guy]

Poroshenko and Ukrainian loyalists should re-draw Ukraine's eastern border.
Allow new Russia or new Donetsk or whatever they want to call it to exist as a separate state, separatist's new country, or Russia's new Russia. This new country would not include Mariupol' and would not include a lot of those two oblasts that are under Ukrainian control now. It would not include a land bridge to Crimea.

This would allow Ukraine to strengthen its remaining territory. That's important. The remaining Ukraine would have control of its borders. The remaining Ukraine could have reinforcements from the EU. This would draw a defined line in the sand.

The limb is dead. Amputate it. Russia has killed it. Separatists have killed it. Let the area be independent and it will serve as an extreme example of the difference in Putin/Soviet and EU ideologies. The new Russia region will look like sh#t compared with the new Ukraine that will integrate with the west and prosper like Poland. Follow that course and it will be even more evident to the world (and Russia) that Putin is ruining Russia.

[AkMike]

Then what's to stop him from changing the border again? More amputations and more of Ukraine for the vile Huilonista's?

 Where would it stop in this mystical scenario?  Kyiv? Krakow? Berlin? Paris?

[Photo Guy]

Heavy weaponry. Stricter border control- something that hasn't existed on the eastern front. I said a new well-defined border.

Where has there been a well-defined border up to this point? Nowhere. The eastern border can't be defended. The area is in a 'cross fire'.

[calmissile]

Poroshenko and Ukrainian loyalists should re-draw Ukraine's eastern border.
Allow new Russia or new Donetsk or whatever they want to call it to exist as a separate state, separatist's new country, or Russia's new Russia. This new country would not include Mariupol' and would not include a lot of those two oblasts that are under Ukrainian control now. It would not include a land bridge to Crimea.

This would allow Ukraine to strengthen its remaining territory. That's important. The remaining Ukraine would have control of its borders. The remaining Ukraine could have reinforcements from the EU. This would draw a defined line in the sand.

The limb is dead. Amputate it. Russia has killed it. Separatists have killed it. Let the area be independent and it will serve as an extreme example of the difference in Putin/Soviet and EU ideologies. The new Russia region will look like sh#t compared with the new Ukraine that will integrate with the west and prosper like Poland. Follow that course and it will be even more evident to the world (and Russia) that Putin is ruining Russia.

I understand your logic however the new 'Separatist State(s)' would be landlocked inside the greater Ukraine border and it seems to me that it would create a festering cancer that Putin would continue to use to destabilize Ukraine.

Seems to me a better solution would be to gather the necessary resources and wipe out the terrorists.  Anyone left that wants to go to the 'motherland' should have transportation provided by Ukraine.

[AC]

Then what's to stop him from changing the border again? More amputations and more of Ukraine for the vile Huilonista's?

 Where would it stop in this mystical scenario?  Kyiv? Krakow? Berlin? Paris?

Exactly.  Those are Ukrainian lands.  NO CAPITULATION!

[AC]

Maybe the smart money is with Doll and her Compadres.  Their leader is singular in his purpose.  We can't even agree on what to do what is most obvious - Regime change.

Stop your whining, it's embarrassing.  Who elected you head white flag waver anyways?  Pathetic.

[lordtiberius]

Poroshenko and Ukrainian loyalists should re-draw Ukraine's eastern border.
Allow new Russia or new Donetsk or whatever they want to call it to exist as a separate state, separatist's new country, or Russia's new Russia. This new country would not include Mariupol' and would not include a lot of those two oblasts that are under Ukrainian control now. It would not include a land bridge to Crimea.

This would allow Ukraine to strengthen its remaining territory. That's important. The remaining Ukraine would have control of its borders. The remaining Ukraine could have reinforcements from the EU. This would draw a defined line in the sand.

The limb is dead. Amputate it. Russia has killed it. Separatists have killed it. Let the area be independent and it will serve as an extreme example of the difference in Putin/Soviet and EU ideologies. The new Russia region will look like sh#t compared with the new Ukraine that will integrate with the west and prosper like Poland. Follow that course and it will be even more evident to the world (and Russia) that Putin is ruining Russia.

There is your white flag AC.