Russian Women Discussion

RWD Discussion Groups => Experienced => Topic started by: JoeS421 on August 09, 2012, 05:47:55 PM

Title: Russian/Ukranian women - views on sex before marriage?
Post by: JoeS421 on August 09, 2012, 05:47:55 PM
Hi guys,

I wanted to post my story here and get people's thoughts.  I have been corresponding with a lovely Ukrainian lady for a year and a half, and made visits to her in Kiev, several times over the course of 2011.  (I am in my late 30s and she is in her mid 20s).

Initial meetings
We meet on ElenasModels in late 2010/early 2011, and she quickly moves the conversation to her personal email.  She finds me on Skype and starts messaging me, and we start sending each other a few photos.  Things went really well, we have a lot in common, we can talk for hours, and things like that.  After a few months or writing in early 2011, we started talking about meeting.  She is a saleswoman for a Ukrainian medical supplies company, so sometimes her job takes her to various cities in Europe.  We talked about meeting in Rome, but she said that she had to be in Spain for a project so I said that was okay and I would come to Kiev to see her.  So another date in summer 2011 I met her, and met her again in late 2011.  To summarise, our dates went very well, we talked a lot, had a good time.  When we kissed goodnight, she would only kiss me on the cheek at this time.  I met her again in late 2011 in Kiev, and we had a good time again, we did a lot of fun things together and she introduced me to her friends at the end of the trip.  Again, when we kissed goodnight, it was on the cheek but on the last night, it was on the edge of the mouth.

So in 2012, we talked about our next meeting, and I definitely wanted to be with her in February for Valentine's Day.  She was traveling to Switzerland and Germany, so she suggested meeting in Germany since she was visiting her best girl friend there.  I travel over there, and I meet her and her friend, but her friend is nice enough to leave us alone for most of the trip.  We look into each others eyes a lot (we always do this from here on out), we kiss on the edge of the mouth a few times, not just when saying goodbye but also as a spur of the moment things.  At the end of this trip, we are kissing each other on the lips, and holding hands.

Traveling together
We talk about the next meeting, and she suggests that since she has a multiple entry visa for Western Europe, we take a trip together.  So we talk about places neither of us have been to, but want to visit so we decide on a long weekend in Norway together in April.  So I plan for the trip, and put everything on my expense (including her plane ticket from Kiev to Oslo), meet her and we have a good time.  Since this would be the first time we are sleeping together in the same bed, I go into this with the hope about "getting lucky", but I decide I'm not going to try anything as I do not want to look too aggressive about sex, and I want her to feel comfortable around me.  We sleep in the same bed, kissing each other goodnight and she plays with my hair in the morning, and she gives me a back rub since my allergies are bothering me at the time.  However, we do not have sex, I do not make a move and although she sleeps in her lingerie and takes her bra off for comfort reasons, she sleeps face down and wraps a towel around her whenever she goes out of bed so she doesn't show me anything.  The rest of the trip goes like this, we have a great time together, kissing on the lips (no tongue, I tried once but she didn't play along) sleeping in each others underwear with each other (we hold each other but in order to sleep we just go on our sides of the bed.  I tried to hold her around her stomach area but she asked me not to do that since her stomach was sensitive).  But we still walk around Oslo holding hands, we look at each other warmly a lot, and the overall vibe is good.

The end of this trip goes well, and we talk about our next trip.  She mentions that she can get a week off work on May 2012 so we talk about places to visit.  She recommends Switzerland, since I have never been there and she has traveled there before with her mom and for work.  So we spend a full week together, but this is a more aggressive trip since we are driving around a lot and only spending a few days in each city.  We are still kissing and long looks into each others eyes, and this time holding hands, but when going to bed she wears a nightie this time.  Furthermore, when showering and getting dressed, she brings all her clothes into the bathroom and and I do not see her in her lingerie this time, she always emerges from the shower fully clothed.  Because this trip is going to so many places, we are usually tired when going to bed but everytime before we go to bed she holds me for a few minutes and kisses me several times goodnight.  I did not make a move on this Switzerland trip, since I was tired from the trip schedule and plus I did not want to jeopardize the relationship by coming on too strong.  So we ended the trip by kissing each other repeatedly, I smile and ask if I can call her "my girlfriend", she smiles and laughs sweetly.  She says, "That's a new word for me" and kisses me several times.  She then teaches me the Russian word for girlfriend.  We look back at each other when we part ways on separate planes, and I think the trip ends on a good note, part of me wonders if it's a bad sign about the fact that we have not been intimate yet.

Summary of where we are now
Since then, we have been emailing each other as usual, and talking about visiting her in Kiev this August.  We email pictures to each other, and just a few days ago, she emailed me a picture of her in a bikini for the first time.  Keep in mind that every other picture she has sent to me before this week, she is dressed normally.  Also, she dresses very conservatively and does not show too much leg, cleavage or anything like that. 

Also, I get the feeling that she is very conservative about sexual matters because:
1) She is religious, she prays every night before going to bed, and when visiting Europe, whenever we go into a cathedral, she kneels down, does the sign of the Cross three times, and prays.  Although I believe in God, I do not practice a religion.  She told me that she came to God when we was in college and fell really sick, a friend gave her a Bible and she started reading it and instantly felt better.  Since then, she says, she has really made the most out of life.
2) She takes a conservative and moralistic worldview in matters.  She will have a few drinks of alcohol, but she takes a dim view of marijuana and other drugs.  When we were in Switzerland, my friends who live there told me stories of women from the poorer Eurozone countries coming into Switzerland to do escort jobs.  She just shook her head and said, "It's amazing what one can do if one has no moral standards."
3) She laughs at all of my jokes, but just once I mentioned an off color joke about an American tourist in France who inadvertently used the French equivalent of the F-word, and she said, "I don't find that funny."

My American guy friends do not trust her
However, my guy friends in the US do not trust her.  They know we met on ElenasModels, they googled EM and showed me a bunch of links to scams on EM (I think that EM itself is legitimate, but there are scammers who try to use it) and my friends think that she is using me for free trips, and the fact we haven't had sex yet is worrying.  My friends tell me to have a discussion of her about her view on sex, and if she gives me some BS, dump her.  However, she may be waiting until marriage or wanting to know me really really well before taking that step.  My guy friends are like "You've known her for a year and a half!" but this is not like the USA M-F relationship where you are living in the same city.

My friends think she is using me for free trips, since she emailed me a picture of her in a bikini for the first time recently, and they said that is weird, because she is a prude in bed and it is like she is rubbing my nose in the fact we haven't had sex yet.  They point out that in the same email that she sent the first bikini photo, it was a reply to my email about sponsoring her on a visa to visit me in the US, so they say that it was just an encouragement to get her to pay for the next trip.  And my friends don't think that she is really saving herself for marriage or waiting to have sex because the temptation is too great, and nobody saves themselves for marriage in these times.

However, she has made no direct attempt to scam me so far because:
1) She has never asked me to send her money nor buy her anything.  When she goes shopping, she buys everything herself.
2) Although I pay for everything on our dates and when we travel, I pay for the travel expenses, she gives me gifts, like a box of chocolates, or men's cologne, and heart shaped soap.  In our trip to Switzerland, she even bought my friend who let us stay at his place wine and chocolates as a thank you gift, even though I didn't ask her to do so, since my friend had refused an offer of a gift from me when we talked to each other
3) She doesn't insist on buying expensive things, and won't complain if we end up eating at less expensive restaurants occasionally.

Conclusion
So what do you guys think?  I read an article about FSU women linked from RWD, and it says that women waiting until marriage for sex is not common in the FSU, and if you hear that, you should run as its usually a scam.  However, this woman is really special, we connect in so many ways, we have similar personalities, and I genuinely enjoy spending time with her.  If she is using me for free trips, then end it but if she is being honest and genuine, then I really want to see if this develops into something really serious and marriage (we have talked about marriage and we both want a family).  My American guy friends have told me to flat out ask her about our relationship and how she feels about a sexual relationship between us - if she gives me some BS or "waiting until marriage" then end it.  However, I do not want to be this direct, and I certainly do not want to look like I am just trying to "get laid".  I am looking for a wife, not an escort.  Then again, I need to know she wants to be with me for me, not the fact that I am paying for a few trips a year.  How should I bring up the subject of intimacy with this girl?  If she wants to wait, I will respect her even more for that if she is being honest and genuine.

Thanks a lot!
Title: Re: Russian/Ukranian women - views on sex before marriage?
Post by: GoodOlBoy on August 09, 2012, 06:07:33 PM
Welcome to RWD Joe.  :welcome:

Has she ever invited you to her hometown to meet her Mom and Dad?

Is her profile still on the internet?
 
GOB
Title: Re: Russian/Ukranian women - views on sex before marriage?
Post by: remiel6 on August 09, 2012, 06:17:30 PM
I can only speak from experience, but every woman is different. My wife is very conservative, yet I know there are many women who are not. I might start by asking her.
Title: Re: Russian/Ukranian women - views on sex before marriage?
Post by: JoeS421 on August 09, 2012, 06:23:17 PM
Welcome to RWD Joe.  :welcome:

Has she ever invited you to her hometown to meet her Mom and Dad?

Is her profile still on the internet?
 
GOB

Hi GOB, thanks for the welcome.

Her profile is not on the internet, I noticed it was taken down a few months after we started corresponding.  She has invited me to her hometown several times, but not to meet her parents yet.  I am going to Kiev this late August, and I may ask to meet her parents on this trip.
Title: Re: Russian/Ukranian women - views on sex before marriage?
Post by: JoeS421 on August 09, 2012, 06:25:20 PM
I can only speak from experience, but every woman is different. My wife is very conservative, yet I know there are many women who are not. I might start by asking her.

Good point.  Of course, should I just use the word "intimacy" or beat around the bush, like What do you feel about living together before marriage?  And just start the discussion like that....
Title: Re: Russian/Ukranian women - views on sex before marriage?
Post by: remiel6 on August 09, 2012, 06:41:11 PM
That would depend on her English level. Such "beating around the bush" can sometimes leave her scratching her head. I can think of many conversations with my wife where I thought I said something perfectly normal and alas she would give me a blank stare. It turns out the  baffling word I had used was the word "do" lol.
Title: Re: Russian/Ukranian women - views on sex before marriage?
Post by: ML on August 09, 2012, 06:47:20 PM
Hate to be the wet towel here . . . but this is all pretty unbelievable.

Any guy who would go along with this in 2012 is pretty foolish, or has an extremely low sex drive himself.

Women (and men) who can go without sex for extended periods with a serious partner before marriage can certainly go without sex after marriage.

I certainly haven't and wouldn't require sex on first date or even third date (I'm talking about a date in one day, not a week trip counting as date); but after that I would just be meeting with the gal as a friend when I had nothing else to do.

- - - - -

Providing this thread isn't the latest 'jerk around.'
Title: Re: Russian/Ukranian women - views on sex before marriage?
Post by: Jack on August 09, 2012, 07:03:51 PM
Joe, their are many such good women in Ukraine as  you have described.  As opposed to you having  a scammer, you may have a diamond.
Title: Re: Russian/Ukranian women - views on sex before marriage?
Post by: remiel6 on August 09, 2012, 07:04:11 PM
I don't really agree with this. To me the speed of the sexual relationship is all up to the woman. Some women would rather take it more slowly. There is a very fine line however between your bored friend category and moving forward. My limited knowledge of Russian/Ukrainian women is this. If she's traveling Europe, especially on her own dime, she's not interested in being friends.
I'm not sure who's paying for these trips. If the poster is paying and we are in this situation I agree with ML, if the lady is paying her own way, then I am inlined to follow her lead.
Title: Re: Russian/Ukranian women - views on sex before marriage?
Post by: remiel6 on August 09, 2012, 07:04:48 PM
I was speaking of ML not Jack
Title: Re: Russian/Ukranian women - views on sex before marriage?
Post by: I/O on August 09, 2012, 07:31:31 PM
Joe: Have you ever been intimate with a woman?
Title: Re: Russian/Ukranian women - views on sex before marriage?
Post by: Eduard on August 09, 2012, 09:37:38 PM
This is a very unusual situation IMO. On one hand I wanna say" "Take the lead, make love to her, don't just touch her stomach. Kiss her neck, shoulders, and move down from there, show some passion, TAKE HER! FSU women like and expect that from a man. Don't wait for her to make the first move!". But the fact that she won't french kiss you tells me that she may not be feeling the chemistry toward you and just enjoys you as a friend. Also possible that she enjoys free trips to nice places... hard to tell without observing her (and your) behavior. But dating for 1.5 years, sleeping in the same bed and not having sex, sounds like something from a fiction story.
I'm also very surprised that you haven't asked her if she believes in "no sex before marriage" or just discussed with her your situation and lack of intimacy. Why haven't you?
How old are you and how old is she?
Title: Re: Russian/Ukranian women - views on sex before marriage?
Post by: mendeleyev on August 09, 2012, 11:27:05 PM
Such is a couple's decision but it is outdated in 2012 to say that a woman or man or couple can't set their own agenda in regards to this topic. It has nothing to do with sexual drive but with personal attitudes, no matter which choice they make. Each individual is different and when two come together to become a "couple" this is one of the decisions they must make together.

Let them make it. We aren't going to be there as a threesome so what we think really doesn't matter.
Title: Re: Russian/Ukranian women - views on sex before marriage?
Post by: JoeS421 on August 09, 2012, 11:40:16 PM
That would depend on her English level. Such "beating around the bush" can sometimes leave her scratching her head. I can think of many conversations with my wife where I thought I said something perfectly normal and alas she would give me a blank stare. It turns out the  baffling word I had used was the word "do" lol.

Hi Remiel, her English is pretty much fluent.
Title: Re: Russian/Ukranian women - views on sex before marriage?
Post by: JoeS421 on August 09, 2012, 11:41:40 PM
I don't really agree with this. To me the speed of the sexual relationship is all up to the woman. Some women would rather take it more slowly. There is a very fine line however between your bored friend category and moving forward. My limited knowledge of Russian/Ukrainian women is this. If she's traveling Europe, especially on her own dime, she's not interested in being friends.
I'm not sure who's paying for these trips. If the poster is paying and we are in this situation I agree with ML, if the lady is paying her own way, then I am inlined to follow her lead.

Hi Remiel, I am paying for the trips - she does give me gifts and things, but I shoulder most of the expenses.
Title: Re: Russian/Ukranian women - views on sex before marriage?
Post by: JoeS421 on August 09, 2012, 11:44:49 PM
Joe: Have you ever been intimate with a woman?

Yes, I have had serious relationships before.  How it usually happens is that we end up kissing, then if I start making a move towards removing her shirt then it all goes from there.
Title: Re: Russian/Ukranian women - views on sex before marriage?
Post by: JoeS421 on August 09, 2012, 11:50:30 PM
This is a very unusual situation IMO. On one hand I wanna say" "Take the lead, make love to her, don't just touch her stomach. Kiss her neck, shoulders, and move down from there, show some passion, TAKE HER! FSU women like and expect that from a man. Don't wait for her to make the first move!". But the fact that she won't french kiss you tells me that she may not be feeling the chemistry toward you and just enjoys you as a friend. Also possible that she enjoys free trips to nice places... hard to tell without observing her (and your) behavior. But dating for 1.5 years, sleeping in the same bed and not having sex, sounds like something from a fiction story.
I'm also very surprised that you haven't asked her if she believes in "no sex before marriage" or just discussed with her your situation and lack of intimacy. Why haven't you?
How old are you and how old is she?

Hi Eduard,

I admit, I have been real timid with this girl but keep in mind that we have only been on two trips together so far.   She might be french kissing me now, you are right I have to show some more initiative, as she initially only kisses me on the cheek, but after meeting her a few times (before I started going on trips with her) she kissed me on the lips afterwards so she might want to take it slow.

Do you think the fact that she is religious has anything to do with it?

I am 37, she is 26.  The reason why I haven't asked her this before is this is my first relationship with a FSU woman, I have dated a woman from Ukraine before, but she lived in New York for the last 10 years and was pretty much Americanized.  As I said before, her religious-ness with the frequent praying also caused me to hold off discussing intimacy until now.

I will definitely ask her about her views about intimacy on my next trip to see her in her city.  At the end of the evening, I will try to french kiss her, just do something moving onto the next level, and if she goes along, great.  If she demurs, then I can ask her "What are your views on intimacy, as you seem to hold back sometimes?  I need to know if you see us having a romantic relationship." and take it from there.

Thanks,
Joe
Title: Re: Russian/Ukranian women - views on sex before marriage?
Post by: I/O on August 10, 2012, 12:17:40 AM
Joe: I'm not interested in the gory details of who touched who where, how or when or who undid this or that button however, in general, if a lady is in bed with you, scantily clad and at least somewhat affectionate, she isn't their to maintain her virginity. I'm thinking you're missing something obvious. 
 
FWIW, if you enjoy her company and can afford the travel, why not continue until the obvious conclusion, whatever that may be.
 
To make specific suggestions on how to progress the physical relationship, IMO, on a public forum, is improper but I would offer the thought based on experience, that in this area, as with any other area involving RW's, generally one should offer, ask, suggest, 3 times to confirm the offer is genuine................... ;)
Title: Re: Russian/Ukranian women - views on sex before marriage?
Post by: Belvis on August 10, 2012, 12:47:43 AM
This is a very unusual situation IMO.
... But the fact that she won't french kiss you tells me that she may not be feeling the chemistry toward you and just enjoys you as a friend. Also possible that she enjoys free trips to nice places... hard to tell without observing her (and your) behavior. But dating for 1.5 years, sleeping in the same bed and not having sex, sounds like something from a fiction story.
I would say this is rather unusual situation, but not very  unusual.  I've read here  in TR section about a girl who insisted on no sex before marriage, then after marriage the couple get 3 kids.
I had met FSUW who hate  french kisses. I don't understand this kind of kisses too, so there is no crime here :)
I doubt she enjoys OP as a friend only, in that case she would avoid sleeping with him. She does not look desperate to share a bed with a guy only to save on her travel expenses.
My two points:
1. Great enjoyable time together is more important than relatively short mediocre sex . Though slowly nevertheless  the relationship is advancing.
2. What does JoeS421 expect from the gal? She is not going to seduce him, it's the task for a man. It does not mean  agressive sex, it is more about tempting mood and flirting. The idea of bringing up the subject of intimacy with the girl looks for me too direct, though more open talks about sex are required, for example in context of  inquiry about FSU attitude toward the issue . It's obvious that she does not want intimacy right now of reasons she may have dim ideas herself. The facts are: she trusts OP enough to share a bed, she is not in a mood yet to yield (may be she had very bad experience before).
Title: Re: Russian/Ukranian women - views on sex before marriage?
Post by: GunayH on August 10, 2012, 02:44:39 AM
When my friend came to visit after months of talking it was in my home. He still had to show he was interested in me. For a couple of days he sleeps on the couch while we were signing to each other with our words and touching. If one of us did not like the way things were it would have stopped.

It seems you made signs with kissing and probably touching. If she not coming to you from her side of the bed with towel on she is sending you a sign too.

Maybe one more big sign that this is next thing to do, then break if she does not agree?
Title: Re: Russian/Ukranian women - views on sex before marriage?
Post by: Eduard on August 10, 2012, 06:59:59 AM
I would say this is rather unusual situation, but not very  unusual.  I've read here  in TR section about a girl who insisted on no sex before marriage, then after marriage the couple get 3 kids.
I had met FSUW who hate  french kisses. I don't understand this kind of kisses too, so there is no crime here :)
I doubt she enjoys OP as a friend only, in that case she would avoid sleeping with him. She does not look desperate to share a bed with a guy only to save on her travel expenses.
My two points:
1. Great enjoyable time together is more important than relatively short mediocre sex . Though slowly nevertheless  the relationship is advancing.
2. What does JoeS421 expect from the gal? She is not going to seduce him, it's the task for a man. It does not mean  agressive sex, it is more about tempting mood and flirting. The idea of bringing up the subject of intimacy with the girl looks for me too direct, though more open talks about sex are required, for example in context of  inquiry about FSU attitude toward the issue . It's obvious that she does not want intimacy right now of reasons she may have dim ideas herself. The facts are: she trusts OP enough to share a bed, she is not in a mood yet to yield (may be she had very bad experience before).
Belvis, what you say makes sense. This is very hard to call without knowing the 2 people involved. Also there may be something in her past that prevents her from getting intimate... (rape?). Who knows? I think that they need to communicate about this. 1.5 years is way too long and a good talk is definitely due.
Title: Re: Russian/Ukranian women - views on sex before marriage?
Post by: Ranetka on August 10, 2012, 07:01:20 AM
To the OP:


I think by now the lady might be worried that you have some problems in sex department. Take my advise or not but I would recommend next time you are together do not wait for her to start, make a strong move until she either plays along or says no. And if she says no you can ask why and it all will be clear :-) Good luck.
Title: Re: Russian/Ukranian women - views on sex before marriage?
Post by: Eduard on August 10, 2012, 07:24:27 AM
Hi Eduard,

I admit, I have been real timid with this girl but keep in mind that we have only been on two trips together so far.   She might be french kissing me now, you are right I have to show some more initiative, as she initially only kisses me on the cheek, but after meeting her a few times (before I started going on trips with her) she kissed me on the lips afterwards so she might want to take it slow.

Do you think the fact that she is religious has anything to do with it?

I am 37, she is 26.  The reason why I haven't asked her this before is this is my first relationship with a FSU woman, I have dated a woman from Ukraine before, but she lived in New York for the last 10 years and was pretty much Americanized.  As I said before, her religious-ness with the frequent praying also caused me to hold off discussing intimacy until now.

I will definitely ask her about her views about intimacy on my next trip to see her in her city.  At the end of the evening, I will try to french kiss her, just do something moving onto the next level, and if she goes along, great.  If she demurs, then I can ask her "What are your views on intimacy, as you seem to hold back sometimes?  I need to know if you see us having a romantic relationship." and take it from there.

Thanks,
Joe
Joe, If it were me, I'd have this talk with her before flying to Europe to meet her again. But it's your call off course. You might want to show more passion when you are with her. Most Russian women that I knew liked to be taken, passionately, slightly forcefully, like a traditional pre-feminizm man would. Could be that this is exactly what she wants to happen but she can't tell you this. Another thing might help if you share a bottle of champagne before climbing in bed with her, or better yet have champagne in bed with her, spill some over her (accidentally  :P ) and make sure that not a drop of it goes to waste!!! Be a bad boy, fun, passionate, mischievous, a little pushy. Offer to give her a back massage, this can turn into a full body massage - a very sensual experience that will progress to a lot more. If she doesn't like a massage (believe it or not there are a few women on Earth that don't like it!) be playful, tickle her, make her giggle, make her try to get away and then capture her and ravish her... Man do I need to hide under the bed to give instructions????!!! LOL  :P
But definitely do have a talk with her, make sure there was no some traumatic experience in her passed that prevents her from getting intimate with men.
Hope this helps!
Title: Re: Russian/Ukranian women - views on sex before marriage?
Post by: Eduard on August 10, 2012, 07:41:23 AM
To the OP:


I think by now the lady might be worried that you have some problems in sex department. Take my advise or not but I would recommend next time you are together do not wait for her to start, make a strong move until she either plays along or says no. And if she says no you can ask why and it all will be clear :-) Good luck.
I agree with Ranetka, the only thing I would add is that the "Strong Move" should be playful, sensual and passionate. Trust me on this: learn how to give a massage ( you can do that just by reading a book). Offer her a massage when you are in bed, not many women would say no at this stage of your relationship! massage her back, her feet, make sure you are not hurting her by doing it too hard. Every woman has her own threshold of pain, so try to get in tune what feels good to her. Once you do that for 5-10 minutes and she starts relaxing, massage her legs, her buttocks. If you see that she is moaning and enjoying it start kissing her back giving it gentle licks and move down to her butt. This would be the point of no return for 99% of women... If she stops you at that point, there is definitely something wrong.


Don't think that religious women don't like sex. Some of them like sex a bit too much and they need that religion to sort of keep them in check a bit. If she happens to be the type who doesn't believe in intimacy before marriage I am quite surprised that she would sleep in the same bed with you...
Title: Re: Russian/Ukranian women - views on sex before marriage?
Post by: Gator on August 10, 2012, 07:52:09 AM
 :welcome:  Joe,
 
Very interesting. 
 
You have met her four times in Europe and also in Kiev.  And no sex! Every person is different, yet this seems extreme. 
 
If she were a teacher, 21-yo and had never left her provincial city, I could believe this is possible but not likely.  In contrast, she is 26-yo, has a  high level professional job and travels around Europe as part of her business.   
 
I reread your long post and in my second reading it became clear.  You wrote:
 

...sleeping in each others underwear ....



RW don't respect men who sleep in women's underwear.    :D
 
Of course this is not your true meaning about sleeping in underwear.  However, it does illustrate a point, namely few RW  take the   initiative with regard to sex, especially the first time.  So you need to be more of a man, especially one who knows what to do.  (see Ranetka's post)
 
You like this woman and it seems she likes you.  You have been timid all this time, so be careful not to suddenly become a rabid wolf.  My suggestion - share a fine bottle of wine  in the evening in your room and have a direct conversation that progresses to candid discussions of her feelings for you, her attitude about sex, her past relationships, etc.  Perhaps she likes you but not enough to prompt thoughts of marriage, and she is not a woman who does buddy sex.
 
BTW, my Cossack woman has an attractive friend in her early 40s who is still  a virgin.  She has no interest in sex, and is rather naive, believing in her 30s that penises were all the same size until the Cossack woman explained otherwise.    Remarkable but true.
Title: Re: Russian/Ukranian women - views on sex before marriage?
Post by: Faux Pas on August 10, 2012, 08:15:39 AM
To the OP:


I think by now the lady might be worried that you have some problems in sex department. Take my advise or not but I would recommend next time you are together do not wait for her to start, make a strong move until she either plays along or says no. And if she says no you can ask why and it all will be clear :-) Good luck.

Likely there is a lot of truth here. Joe, there is also likely a lot of truth somewhere in the middle of your perception about her and her religious beliefs and the opinions of your friends.

I haven't heard you state you making positive sexual moves toward her while she is obviously putting you in the position (no pun intended  :D) to do so.

She is religious and a bit moralistic, thats all good  but, she is still a woman and I imagine full of sexual energy. It is up to you to make those moves. What are you waiting for? Permission slips rarely ever happen. You've been on two trips and you've failed (IMHO) two tests. She's not sleeping in a bed with for the rest. Seems she is a bit on the prudish side but, thats not a bad thing. You haven't done your part. Fess up and tell your friends that you haven't and don't fail your next test
Title: Re: Russian/Ukranian women - views on sex before marriage?
Post by: Muzh on August 10, 2012, 08:28:08 AM
Joe, listen to the ladies.

Based on what you wrote, I'm siding with your buddies.
Title: Re: Russian/Ukranian women - views on sex before marriage?
Post by: ML on August 10, 2012, 04:08:50 PM
. . .   believing in her 30s that penises were all the same size . . . .

I trying to imagine how she came to talk about this, given her background as you presented it.

Can't quite see how it  came about.
Title: Re: Russian/Ukranian women - views on sex before marriage?
Post by: JoeS421 on August 10, 2012, 04:19:41 PM
Belvis, what you say makes sense. This is very hard to call without knowing the 2 people involved. Also there may be something in her past that prevents her from getting intimate... (rape?). Who knows? I think that they need to communicate about this. 1.5 years is way too long and a good talk is definitely due.

Hi guys,

I will definitely communicate with her about this.  I don't think she has experienced being sexually assaulted or anything like that, otherwise she wouldn't be sharing a hotel room with me in the first place.  But I will have this chat with her...
Title: Re: Russian/Ukranian women - views on sex before marriage?
Post by: lakecreek on August 10, 2012, 05:02:30 PM
I know someone who had this problem once and it took him a while to find out that she had an STD. She was scared that she was going to give to him. Now I have Europeans and Russians are not into the whole condom thing. At this point you should be going to check in on why she is not having sex with you.
Title: Re: Russian/Ukranian women - views on sex before marriage?
Post by: JoeS421 on August 10, 2012, 05:13:20 PM
Hi everyone,

Thanks for the feedback so far!  Just a few things I thought I would mention:

On my trips to Kiev, we do not sleep in the same room or bed, since she lives with her mother and I get my own place when visiting her city.  We have only slept in the same bed twice in two trips (to Norway and Switzerland).  And we have cuddled in bed a few times before, and she tried sleeping on top of me once, but we couldn't get in a comfortable position so usually now we sleep on our sides of the bed, but sometimes get close and sleep right next to each other during the night.

It seems that the majority of people here are just telling me to grow a pair and make a move!   ;)  I just assumed that she was really religious and prudish until earlier this week when she sent me photos in a bikini for the first time - is she sending me a message to make a move, or seeking to continue a scam?  We'll find out  ;)

However, since I will be visiting her in Kiev, we don't plan to be sleeping in the same bed, so I am thinking of other ways I can bring up this conversation...  Anyway I won't be leaving until the 24th so I'll give it some thought about this.

Thanks,
Joe
Title: Re: Russian/Ukranian women - views on sex before marriage?
Post by: I/O on August 11, 2012, 01:24:15 AM
Now I have Europeans and Russians are not into the whole condom thing.
110% Bullsch!t.
 
Quote
believing in her 30s that penises were all the same size
They're not? You sayin' my mother lied to me all those years?  :'(
 
Title: Re: Russian/Ukranian women - views on sex before marriage?
Post by: Shadow on August 11, 2012, 04:57:22 AM
Now I have Europeans and Russians are not into the whole condom thing.
Correct. Most of us just dress it on the appropriate part instead of going in  the whole thing. ;)
Title: Re: Russian/Ukranian women - views on sex before marriage?
Post by: remiel6 on August 11, 2012, 06:46:35 AM
upon further discussion with my wife she has concluded that at 26 she thinks there is no way your lady is a virgin so either you need to make a move, or she is liking the nice vacations.
Title: Re: Russian/Ukranian women - views on sex before marriage?
Post by: Ranetka on August 11, 2012, 07:23:20 AM
upon further discussion with my wife she has concluded that at 26 she thinks there is no way your lady is a virgin so either you need to make a move, or she is liking the nice vacations.


A good friend of mine was a virgin until 36.



Title: Re: Russian/Ukranian women - views on sex before marriage?
Post by: Jumper on August 11, 2012, 09:57:37 AM
Hi everyone,

Thanks for the feedback so far!  Just a few things I thought I would mention:

On my trips to Kiev, we do not sleep in the same room or bed, since she lives with her mother and I get my own place when visiting her city.  We have only slept in the same bed twice in two trips (to Norway and Switzerland).  And we have cuddled in bed a few times before, and she tried sleeping on top of me once, but we couldn't get in a comfortable position so usually now we sleep on our sides of the bed, but sometimes get close and sleep right next to each other during the night.

It seems that the majority of people here are just telling me to grow a pair and make a move!   ;)  I just assumed that she was really religious and prudish until earlier this week when she sent me photos in a bikini for the first time - is she sending me a message to make a move, or seeking to continue a scam?  We'll find out  ;)

However, since I will be visiting her in Kiev, we don't plan to be sleeping in the same bed, so I am thinking of other ways I can bring up this conversation...  Anyway I won't be leaving until the 24th so I'll give it some thought about this.

Thanks,
Joe


You are asking general questions,but they are  about an individual, so everything is just speculation.
Since generalities are all that can be given, it likely isn't much use for a particularly individual and you need to both talk to her,and read her actions.
(which are always more important than someones words)

Generalities:
1.Women that sleep with you, and on top of you , are not *just friends*.
:popcorn:
I'm not sure what else she should do to initiate sex, besides just going for it!
but those are generally big green lights ,not red or yellow!! lol
and if you then made an advance ,and were declined, you certainly should ask why and expect a straight answer.
If you dint make an advance she was probably hurt and wondering why you arn't attracted to her.

2.Women you have met several times, who are into you, that have already slept in the same bed with, and you are visiting their city and have an apartment(flat) , would generally
be coming to this apartment and spending time with you.including sleeping there.
(at this juncture generally having sex with you , lets be slightly realistic)

Again you are asking for generalities.

Diversion from those generalities ,can mean any number of things..
good ,bad or indifferent.

but without any doubt a women that sleeps on top of you, that doesn't want sex with you is
a pretty  unusual scenario.  :rolleyes:

There could be a thousand explanations, but the 2 main ones that come to mind are:

You just completely missed the boat,and she's wondering what the heck is wrong with you.
 
She has some  reasons for avoiding that level of intimacy with you.
Those reasons could be past history,moral/ethical,simply personal, or some hidden agenda of playing you.

Bottom line is your actions ,,seem to be lack of action..
her actions show some interest..she slept with you and on top of you.


The  odd part is you not making a normal move to get an *answer*
and the fact you seem to think a woman that has slept with you before,  wouldn't want to be with you in your Kyiv flat,for at least that same level of companionship,if not furthering it.


you seem to be approaching visiting her there as something  that might not be at least as intimate as prior trips? why?

Shes probably a decent girl more confused about this, than you are,
or shes having fun playing you a bit.
The real issue is that in either case ,by now it  should be completely obvious to you which it is.
Posters on the forum board sidelines , don't know either of you.


Title: Re: Russian/Ukranian women - views on sex before marriage?
Post by: ML on August 11, 2012, 09:58:14 AM

A good friend of mine was a virgin until 36.

How many years can the Virgin Mary claim?
Title: Re: Russian/Ukranian women - views on sex before marriage?
Post by: SANDRO43 on August 11, 2012, 10:44:33 AM
How many years can the Virgin Mary claim?
At least 1,500 years ;D: her "perfect virginity" was officially proclaimed as church dogma during the 2nd Ecumenical Council held at Constantinople in 553 - more if the dogma can be considered to have a retro-active effect :-\ .
Title: Re: Russian/Ukranian women - views on sex before marriage?
Post by: Eduard on August 11, 2012, 10:46:35 AM

but without any doubt a women that sleeps on top of you, that doesn't want sex with you is
a pretty  unusual scenario.  :rolleyes:

That depends... was she on her back or on her stomach when she was sleeping on top of him?  :P


I've travelled with a good number of men to meet FSU women and in some cases some of the brightest, most successful men were clueless when it came to women. So they needed some coaching... No biggie. Joe will learn. He is still young and even if things don't work out with this lady there are thousands of others out there.
Title: Re: Russian/Ukranian women - views on sex before marriage?
Post by: Faux Pas on August 11, 2012, 11:37:37 AM
At least 1,500 years ;D: her "perfect virginity" was officially proclaimed as church dogma during the 2nd Ecumenical Council held at Constantinople in 553 - more if the dogma can be considered to have a retro-active effect :-\ .

There is a belief that Jesus had brothers and sisters. Unless they too were of immaculate conception it was a lot less than that  :D
Title: Re: Russian/Ukranian women - views on sex before marriage?
Post by: Jumper on August 11, 2012, 11:42:43 AM
That depends... was she on her back or on her stomach when she was sleeping on top of him?  :P


I've travelled with a good number of men to meet FSU women and in some cases some of the brightest, most successful men were clueless when it came to women. So they needed some coaching... No biggie. Joe will learn. He is still young and even if things don't work out with this lady there are thousands of others out there.


Ed,  agreed.
And everyone is at their own pace. Nothing wrong with that..
its just his friends are probably overly paranoid simply because shes a FSU girl,
but they also have a legitimate concerns looking at his overall situation?


I just never can imagine a scenario where a woman slept on top of me, that I dint find out
about  her level of sexual interest, whether I was a teenager, or 36 yo man?
well unless I was in a coma.lol
(which I have been, so that could have happened I suppose? I mean the hot  candy strip'er  was really friendly and slipped me her number when I regained consciousness) :)




Title: Re: Russian/Ukranian women - views on sex before marriage?
Post by: I/O on August 11, 2012, 02:34:18 PM
That depends... was she on her back or on her stomach when she was sleeping on top of him?
Either way, she's keen...........either way. :o
Title: Re: Russian/Ukranian women - views on sex before marriage?
Post by: Jumper on August 11, 2012, 03:04:42 PM
I/O

well,  I was thinking Ed meant to say it was important whether , Joe was sleeping on his back or stomach.
Otherwise you'd think at least she'd naturally know his level of sexual interest,even if he isn't sure about hers?

;D


 

Title: Re: Russian/Ukranian women - views on sex before marriage?
Post by: Eduard on August 11, 2012, 03:47:50 PM
I/O

well,  I was thinking Ed meant to say it was important whether , Joe was sleeping on his back or stomach.
Otherwise you'd think at least she'd naturally know his level of sexual interest,even if he isn't sure about hers?

;D
Bravo, Jumper! I didn't think of that one!  :D
Title: Re: Russian/Ukranian women - views on sex before marriage?
Post by: Ludmila on August 11, 2012, 10:38:05 PM
OP, as well as other inexperienced younger guys,
Eduard is giving you invaluable information. I couldn't say it better than him. Do listen to Eduard.
But most important thing is that he explained the concept-- like "pre-feminizm man would".
Russia isn't a feministic country, and it demonstrates itself in miriads of things. Behavior in different situations-- in the restaurant, among friends, colleagues, etc. This doesn't mean to say they are shy and obedient like asians are. Still, MAN IS EXPECTED TO BE PRO-ACTIVE IN SEX, RELATIONSHIPS, ACTIONS. Moreover, somebody up the thread said you should kind of repeat your approaches 3 times ( to make sure she agrees, because she may want to play a little bit implying " I am not that easy to be taken. You have to really show you are into me"). A decent RW, unlike an AW, is rarely pro-active, leadng in sex and relationships.
Only, American guys in their 20ies and thirties may have forgotten or don't know how the pre -feministic man acts. Just exactly as Eduard described. May be, watch those old movies.
I am quoting Eduard again :
Most Russian women that I knew liked to be taken, passionately, slightly forcefully, like a traditional pre-feminizm man would.
That said, a number of other reasons that the posters mentioned before are important to bear in mind have to be cleared up  :
scamer; free trips while she thinks you're a stand-by ( she may have another guy) ; STD;  may be she wants to show you she's a prude and doesn't easily have intimacy before marriage.
Does she have a sex appeal? Does she wear slightly provocative clothes?
Have you watched  a film together when characters are in romantic intimate relationship ? What is her reaction to that?
Do you say complements to her as far as her looks ? If yes, does she react in a shy way or looks at you, responds with body movements?
It is impossible to explain everything here. You will learn it yourself. And read all that Eduard advises once again. He is writing about what PRECISELY is expected.
Best to you.
Title: Re: Russian/Ukranian women - views on sex before marriage?
Post by: JoeS421 on August 12, 2012, 03:51:50 AM
Hi Jumper, thanks for the long post.


There could be a thousand explanations, but the 2 main ones that come to mind are:

You just completely missed the boat,and she's wondering what the heck is wrong with you.
 
She has some  reasons for avoiding that level of intimacy with you.
Those reasons could be past history,moral/ethical,simply personal, or some hidden agenda of playing you.

Bottom line is your actions ,,seem to be lack of action..
her actions show some interest..she slept with you and on top of you.

I hope I've haven't missed the boat, otherwise, it seems that her sending me a picture of her in a bikini for the first time recently seems to be a signal.   :)  She comes across as conservative and prudish sometimes, but as many posters have pointed out, that doesn't mean the door is closed.

And we're still in touch and making plans with each other - of course, the possibility is for the free trips, but I'm going to be admanant about this - no more trips on my dime (By that I mean - I'll see her in her city, I'm not paying for her to travel anywhere) until I have this issue resolved.   :crackwhip:

The  odd part is you not making a normal move to get an *answer*
and the fact you seem to think a woman that has slept with you before,  wouldn't want to be with you in your Kyiv flat,for at least that same level of companionship,if not furthering it.

Yes, I may have been too timid.   :wallbash:  However, I the Oslo trip was our first together and I didn't make a move because I wanted to demonstrate to her that I can be trusted, and that I'm not only interested in her for sex...  The Switzerland trip we had a real aggressive schedule and both of us just were extremely tired after traveling around all the time.  Plus, I had a good friend kill his chances with an American woman he really likes by trying too hard to get her into bed too quickly.  He is still beating himself up over it even now.    :cluebat:

you seem to be approaching visiting her there as something  that might not be at least as intimate as prior trips? why?

Well, this time I'll be seeing her in her city and I'll have my own place since she lives with her mom.  But as many people have already pointed out - just invite her up to my place!  Simple.

Shes probably a decent girl more confused about this, than you are,
or shes having fun playing you a bit.
The real issue is that in either case ,by now it  should be completely obvious to you which it is.
Posters on the forum board sidelines , don't know either of you.

Again, thanks for the long post.  This is my first relationship with a FSU woman, so that's why maybe seem to be asking these question.  But thanks to everyone on the board for your responses!
Title: Re: Russian/Ukranian women - views on sex before marriage?
Post by: JoeS421 on August 12, 2012, 03:56:17 AM
That depends... was she on her back or on her stomach when she was sleeping on top of him?  :P

I've travelled with a good number of men to meet FSU women and in some cases some of the brightest, most successful men were clueless when it came to women. So they needed some coaching... No biggie. Joe will learn. He is still young and even if things don't work out with this lady there are thousands of others out there.

Hi Eduard,

I was on my back, and she was on her stomach with her arm around me.   And I had my arm around her as well.

Thanks for the posts, this is being really informative!
Title: Re: Russian/Ukranian women - views on sex before marriage?
Post by: JoeS421 on August 12, 2012, 04:13:53 AM

Ed,  agreed.
And everyone is at their own pace. Nothing wrong with that..
its just his friends are probably overly paranoid simply because shes a FSU girl,
but they also have a legitimate concerns looking at his overall situation?


Well, when I told my friends how we met and where she's from, they were like "Oh, it's a scam", and were admanant about it, despite my attempts to explain that not every single FSU lady is a scammer.   However, there is a concern she might be using me, so that's why I'm going to find out for sure.  If we are going to be romantic partners, and possibly life partners, with everything that entails - then everything is fine.  If not, we are still friends, but no more trips on my dime.  I need to confirm this - but the majority here seem to think that I have a chance, but it's up to me to make the move - and I haven't done so yet.
Title: Re: Russian/Ukranian women - views on sex before marriage?
Post by: I/O on August 12, 2012, 04:16:21 AM
the majority here seem to think that I have a chance, but it's up to me to make the move - and I haven't done so yet.
That's a pretty fair summary.
Title: Re: Russian/Ukranian women - views on sex before marriage?
Post by: Eduard on August 12, 2012, 06:38:45 AM
That's a pretty fair summary.
+1
Title: Re: Russian/Ukranian women - views on sex before marriage?
Post by: BillyB on August 12, 2012, 07:40:57 AM
 
Joe, make the move and she'll stop you when she's at her limit. Don't worry she's going to think you're a rapist. You need to worry if she thinks you're a sexual dud who can't get it up.
 
Your goal is marriage or just taking exotic trips with beautiful women? How many years you spent with this woman without talking about sex or other important issues? Time is wasting and important issues aren't addressed.
 
Assuming the lady is a virgin or have sex only with her husband, you NEED to ask her her views on sex within marriage. If she is a virgin, she will probably tell you that she doesn't know if she'll enjoy it or not. Risky! You two may not be compatible and most likely one of you will be disappointed if one of you require sex more than the other. What she needs to tell you is that regardless if she gets pleasure from sex, she gets pleasure for making her husband happy. Anything less that that, beware.
Title: Re: Russian/Ukranian women - views on sex before marriage?
Post by: JoeS421 on August 12, 2012, 08:09:57 AM
OP, as well as other inexperienced younger guys,
Eduard is giving you invaluable information. I couldn't say it better than him. Do listen to Eduard.
But most important thing is that he explained the concept-- like "pre-feminizm man would".
Russia isn't a feministic country, and it demonstrates itself in miriads of things. Behavior in different situations-- in the restaurant, among friends, colleagues, etc. This doesn't mean to say they are shy and obedient like asians are. Still, MAN IS EXPECTED TO BE PRO-ACTIVE IN SEX, RELATIONSHIPS, ACTIONS.

Hi Ludmila,

Thanks for the reply, it is always nice to hear things from the female perspective! 

I have stated earlier that people here seem to think that I have a chance, but I need to make the first move.  Maybe I am used to American women, but usually that I make the move after receiving some signals to go ahead (example: one previous g/f showed me pictures of her in a bra anad jeans in her photo album on our second date when I went to her place for the first time.  Another previous g/f who was a friend of mine before we dated - I knew she was interested when she started spending time with me exclusively and started crashing at my place without asking or my inviting her).  However, with previous relationships, we usually sleep in the same bed a few times before getting intimate.  Maybe this is related to the rule of three, which IO mentioned and you refer to below.

Moreover, somebody up the thread said you should kind of repeat your approaches 3 times ( to make sure she agrees, because she may want to play a little bit implying " I am not that easy to be taken. You have to really show you are into me").

Wow, well said.  Maybe your sentence above sums up exactly what's going on...  Anyway, this upcoming trip will be the third time I will be seeing her since the first time we stayed in the same room together.

A decent RW, unlike an AW, is rarely pro-active, leadng in sex and relationships.

Which results in me, an AM, thinks she is coming across as prudish, leading me to be cautious and delay making a move in order to avoid upsetting her.  Maybe this whole thing is a cultural misunderstanding.  :rolleyes:

That said, a number of other reasons that the posters mentioned before are important to bear in mind have to be cleared up  :
scamer; free trips while she thinks you're a stand-by ( she may have another guy) ; STD;  may be she wants to show you she's a prude and doesn't easily have intimacy before marriage.

All points that have to be taken into account:
Scammer: she never asks me for money nor ever asks me to buy her anything.  If she is a scammer in the traditional sense, this is one heck of a long con.

Stand-by: If there's another guy in the picture, what are some warning flags I should be watching out for?  Cancelling dates at the last minute or being unavailable for long stretches of time frequently?  She has let me handle her smartphone before, and I could have snooped through her messages but I didn't.  Likewise, she has handled my smartphone too.

STD: only way to find out is to have a talk about it

Prudeness: Again, this is the feeling that I get - she prays every evening before bed and prays on her knees every time we visit a cathedral, she does not find jokes about off-color topics funny.  She told me that she really dislikes the stereotype that Ukrainian women are all prostitutes, and told me that she is a normal person.  She also has said that she does not understand people who have no moral standards.

It is impossible to explain everything here. You will learn it yourself. And read all that Eduard advises once again. He is writing about what PRECISELY is expected.
Best to you.

Thanks Ludmila.  Also one more thing I should mention is that she asks if I like certain men's clothes she points out, and she wanted to know if she could have some input with my clothes choices.  In my experience, the serious relationships I have had involved my g/f wanting to have significant input on my wardrobe.   8)
Title: Re: Russian/Ukranian women - views on sex before marriage?
Post by: Eduard on August 12, 2012, 08:19:08 AM
Also one more thing I should mention is that she asks if I like certain men's clothes she points out, and she wanted to know if she could have some input with my clothes choices.  In my experience, the serious relationships I have had involved my g/f wanting to have significant input on my wardrobe.   8)
This is a very good sign.
Title: Re: Russian/Ukranian women - views on sex before marriage?
Post by: ML on August 12, 2012, 12:14:58 PM
I have stated earlier that people here seem to think that I have a chance, but I need to make the first move.  Maybe I am used to American women, but usually that I make the move after receiving some signals to go ahead (example: one previous g/f showed me pictures of her in a bra anad jeans in her photo album on our second date when I went to her place for the first time.  Another previous g/f who was a friend of mine before we dated - I knew she was interested when she started spending time with me exclusively and started crashing at my place without asking or my inviting her).  However, with previous relationships, we usually sleep in the same bed a few times before getting intimate.  Maybe this is related to the rule of three, which IO mentioned and you refer to below.

Yes, always good to the signals from the gal, but your view of signals is a bit different than mine.

A gal in bed with me is always a signal that there is going to be sex!!

Only exception would be that it was a first date, we had previously discussed that there was only one bed, and there was the agreement that there would be no sex.

Aside from that, sharing a bed means sex.  The real signals come earlier when she announces she is going to go take a shower.

Sometimes it is good  to have a little bit of fun with a gal and pretend you don't understand her signal . . . but not forever !!   8)

i.e.  You are on sofa making out and she pulls her shirt up out of her jeans or skirt.  You do nothing.    She unbuttons top of her blouse.  You do nothing. 
She unbuttons top of her jeans.  You  do nothing.
Title: Re: Russian/Ukranian women - views on sex before marriage?
Post by: DKMM on August 19, 2012, 12:16:14 AM
Joe,
1st of all, don't listen to your well meaning but clueless US buddies.  They have NO idea what they are talking about. 
I'm pretty sure I know what's going on but first please answer some questions.
Have you discussed marriage?  If so, who brought this up?  How did that conversation go?  Are you in love or feel like its going to be love if you feel intimate?
Title: Re: Russian/Ukranian women - views on sex before marriage?
Post by: DKMM on August 19, 2012, 02:45:05 PM
Joe PM'd me so I will not discuss what he said privately but I think my reply should be public as there is nothing inappropriate about what I'm about to say. 
I'm sticking with my initial assumption, she is just inexperienced, unsure and conservative (shy is another word).  I've dealt with this type of lady and I did not understand it at first either.  its up to you how to handle it, but handle with care it it will blow up in your face.  It does not hurt to push things a bit, she is waiting for your lead but more than anything she is waiting to know if she has a real future with you.  If you want this to work, more time will be needed with her and find a way to show her you are serious in your intentions. 
 
While the American friends tell you she's a scammer (they ALL say this and they are 100% wrong in your case), her Russian friends are all telling her you are just going to use her for fun and move on.  She has nowhere near the confidence and "nothing to lose" attitude you are used to with American women.  Your fear is getting scammed.  Her fear is getting used and dumped with a face losing "I told you so" from her negative friends. 
 
I cannot emphasize how important it is to know this.
Title: Re: Russian/Ukranian women - views on sex before marriage?
Post by: Eduard on August 19, 2012, 04:03:17 PM
Joe PM'd me so I will not discuss what he said privately but I think my reply should be public as there is nothing inappropriate about what I'm about to say. 
I'm sticking with my initial assumption, she is just inexperienced, unsure and conservative (shy is another word).  I've dealt with this type of lady and I did not understand it at first either.  its up to you how to handle it, but handle with care it it will blow up in your face.  It does not hurt to push things a bit, she is waiting for your lead but more than anything she is waiting to know if she has a real future with you.  If you want this to work, more time will be needed with her and find a way to show her you are serious in your intentions. 
 
While the American friends tell you she's a scammer (they ALL say this and they are 100% wrong in your case), her Russian friends are all telling her you are just going to use her for fun and move on.  She has nowhere near the confidence and "nothing to lose" attitude you are used to with American women.  Your fear is getting scammed.  Her fear is getting used and dumped with a face losing "I told you so" from her negative friends. 
 
I cannot emphasize how important it is to know this.
some good points, except I personally don't know any really conservative women who would sleep on top of a man in a nightie... Things may still work out for them IMO if Joe makes the right moves on his next visit.
Title: Re: Russian/Ukranian women - views on sex before marriage?
Post by: Faux Pas on August 20, 2012, 08:25:06 AM
I stated it earlier and appears it's worth repeating:

Joe, this woman isn't scamming you. From your descriptions the reason(s) you haven't had sex with this lady isn't her, it's you. The next time you find yourself in the company of this woman, specifically in bed, put it all out there and make the move. If she didn't feel good about you and trust you, she would never have been in a bed with you in the first place.

It would appear you are waiting on the trumpets to sound and the angels to sing before you move to close the deal. She can't draw you any clearer picture than she already has. You are way past the mysterious RW stage. Now it is only boy meets girl. Exactly the same as with any other woman you've slept with.

Your American buddies don't know shit. That I'll agree with. You don't appear to be very experienced yourself. That's not a slam or an insult just an observation. There is nothing wrong with this woman. She's done everything she can to give you the green light. You just have to recognize it and go. She's into you
Title: Re: Russian/Ukranian women - views on sex before marriage?
Post by: JoeS421 on August 26, 2012, 08:54:58 PM
Hi everyone, here is a summary of how this trip went:

My flight was delayed by four hours, so by the time I got in (connection through Frankfurt messed up) we had cancelled plans to meet on Friday night since I got in at midnight and met up the following day.  When we met, we kissed, although she kissed me on the side of the lips.  We had a good day, first of all, she booked and paid for a two hour session just for me at the local spa, since it was my birthday recently.  I thanked her and we kissed on the lips, and she said "you have lipstick all over you" and wiped it off my face, which explains why she didn't kiss me on the lips full on when we met.  So I had the massage session, then afterwards we went a historical park west of Kiev.  We had a good time, had a good chat (one of the things we talked about as she is worried about her mother's retirement since her mom is 49 and there is a lot of ageism in the Ukranian workplace and the pensions aren't much - so her and her mom are having a debate about looking after her mom's future.  Her father had a stroke and is in hospital in Russia, although he is doing better.  So she said there are a lot of headaches for her at the moment)  She hasn't asked me for a penny or anything, we were just talking and she was asking me for advice or what do people do for investments in the western countries.  Also we bought tickets to a old style cooking show at the park, but we couldn't attend because they had a full house but they were still selling tickets.  She argued with the ticket seller, who initially refused a refund but eventually caved in.  So walked around the park, holding hands a lot both on her initative and mine.  While waiting for the taxi back, I embraced her, and she put her head on my shoulder for a while until we realised we couldn't see the arriving taxi like this   ;)

We then had dinner at a restaurant where I took her to dinner where we first met, and talked some more about various things, and we both recalled good times about the trips we have taken together.  Like usual, we looked into each other's eyes a lot and I moved in close to her (we were sitting side by side) and started touching her a bit and she touched me a few times although it seemed I was the one who was showing most of the affection.  We had a good dinner, and good conversation.

Before I invited her to my hotel, earlier last week she mentioned that her mother is out of town and she has to look after the dog herself?  Before I said anything about coming over, she did mention that she had to make sure the dog is all right, and asking me what time should we meet tomorrow.  I asked her isn't your girlfriend from work at home helping you with the dog, but she said her friend was not over during the weekend and over the weekend it is just her at home.  I just continued the conversation and she mentioned that she did want to get home before sunset because there have been several crimes in her neighbourhood recently.  I offered to walk her back to her place to make sure she is all right, but she thanked me and declined saying that just as long as she gets back in daytime, she's all right. 

Since it was only 7:30, I asked if we were going anywhere else after dinner, and she said she would like to but she had to get back, since the dog has been in the house all day and with her mom on vacation, someone has to look after him.  I then mentioned that she is invited to stop by the hotel since I had a gift for her (which I do) and she asked could she come by tomorrow (Sunday).  She said normally she would invite me to her place and her and her mom would cook for me, but with the dog all alone she has to get back.  I got the restaurant bill, and I guess I've accepted the fact that she's not staying over, so I didn't push it any more and walked her to the metro stop.  During this time, I tried showing a bit of affection, like embracing her as we were on the metro escalators, but noticed that she didn't embrace me fully in return, and didn't kiss me straight on the lips (maybe she reapplied her lipstick when I was in the bathroom?).  We waited on the platform together, since my train was southbound and hers was northbound.  I tried being more affectionate (hence all the posts on my thread about how FSU women expect the man to show initiative), when she said "I'm not used to showing affection in public, and someone I work with could see us".  I asked her, "What's wrong with that, I have told my friends and colleagues about you" and she said "if they find out I am dating a foreign man, they could terminate my employment" (her words) since they had an experience with a woman who married an Australian and left the firm very soon after.  She also said that if they found out she was dating me, they would talk bad things about her behind her back (you know how the stereotypes are, same reason I have only told a few select friends on how she is from Ukraine - I have stereotypes to deal with at home too).  She said "I understand that it is more diverse where you come from, but this is Ukraine."  Finally I understood her aversion to public displays of affection in Kiev
(she is more affectionate when we are in another city), and just talked with her about our plans for tomorrow and I acted more discreet...   When her train came, she embraced me, kissed me on the lips, and said Bye.  I then walked her to her train, even though mine had pulled in on the opposite platform.  She said "you're going to miss your train" and I was like "I'll get the next one, I just want to say bye again"  We kissed on the cheek, and said bye and I ran to get my train.

I wanted to let you know how the last day of the trip went.  We took a day trip to Chernihiv, and saw the sights there.  I'll just get to the important parts, we were walking in the park where they had churches and she was visiting them and praying inside each one.  We were walking and holding hands, and I brought up the subject of religion.  I asked her about her comment last time I saw her about wanting a Catholic wedding, since she grew up Russian Orthodox.  She said she believes in God, and that worshipping Him through the Catholic or Orthodox churches is the same.  However, Catholicism does not recgonize divorce, so it makes people not rush into a wedding, and it makes sure people who get married know each other well.  We then went into a conversation about the couples we both know (my friends and her friends), and both about people who rushed into marriage and those who took their time or lived together before marriage.  I asked her if she is okay with living with someone before marriage, or would she prefer to be married before living with someone.  She said that living together before marriage is for a "different type of woman" (her words) than her.  She said it is like being a housewife without any rights, it is all right for the guy though, but for the girl it is different.  This gave me some insight into her line of thinking, so I thought that asking her about us and our future is definitely going to be on the cards tonight.

So we get back to Kiev, have a nice dinner and dessert, she is in a good mood and looking/flirting with me.  After dinner, she was going to say goodbye but I told her I have the gift pack for her so she called a taxi that would take us by the hotel and then to her place.  While we were waiting for the taxi, I told her that I had a great weekend and that I wanted to have a talk about us and our future.  I told her that she is pretty, smart, fun to be with, et cetera and I can see myself spending my life with her.  She smiled, laughed but got a little bit nervous.  I asked her, "However, there are times when you hold back on affection and intimacy, and I need to know what you feel about me."  She just said "I'll have to think about it, I was not expecting to have this conversation".  I then replied with "How do you feel about me?  Just tell me and be honest, as I have been honest with you."  She said, "I like you, but I have to think about the future", but then the taxi came and she said we can talk at the hotel.  We rode the taxi back, she was still smiling at me, so it seemed there was no change in her mood.  We get to the hotel and my room, and I show her the gift pack.  She hugs me, kisses me on the lips several times and says thanks.  I then resume the conversation we had earlier, I offer her a seat, she sits on the bed and I sit next to her.  I explained to her that "I'm not asking you to marry me right now"  She breathed a sigh of relief and she smiled and said, "Ok, because I was scared" and she thought she was on the spot right then and there.  I said that "I understand you want to get to know someone really well before marrying them.  I feel the same way, so I am not asking for marriage right now."  I explained to her since it was last June when we first met, and I thought that after seeing each other for a year, I wanted to take our relationship to the next level, possibly on the way to becoming life partners.  I wanted to become serious girlfriend and boyfriend, but I didn't think of those exact words in the moment.  (Do you think I should mention that in my next email, to explain what I meant?)  She then said, "I like you, I just need to think - can I write you?"  I said sure, I thought that she needs time to collect her thoughts and make sure she uses the correct English words.  We kissed on the lips again, then I walked her to the waiting taxi, and paid the fare then I thanked her for the weekend and said our good byes with a cheek kiss.  She said good bye and also promised to write me.

Obviously I have to await her email before I can finish commenting, but a few things I want to say would be "I need to make sure you are serious about me before I spend any more major outlays on you."  Thanks to everyone for your input!
Title: Re: Russian/Ukranian women - views on sex before marriage?
Post by: Eduard on August 27, 2012, 07:10:25 AM
Joe, I think this is more of a "friends" thing for her and she doesn't have any romantic feelings for you. This trip proved it beyond doubt IMO.
If I were you I'd start looking for a woman who will be into you romantically. You've given this relationship more than enough time IMO and acted as a perfect gentleman. Keep her as a friend and start looking for another woman.


Once she feels that you are slipping away she may still come around and suddenly will become interested in you romantically. In the words of a famous Russian poet A. Pushkin: "Чем меньше женщину мы любим тем больше нравимся мы ей" which translates: "The less we love a woman the more she is attracted to us".


Many women are like that, especially if they are attractive and are used to getting plenty of male attention. Once she feels that she's got competition and you have less of a romantic interest in her she may become more aggressive and try to win you back. Whether or not this happens, you should still persue other women and I'm sure that you can find the right one for you. You will be much happier finding a woman with whom you will have MUTUAL attraction and romantic feelings.  Who will shake with excitement and cry the tears of happiness when you tell her that you would like to spend the rest of your life with her and propose marriage.
Title: Re: Russian/Ukranian women - views on sex before marriage?
Post by: TheTraveler on August 27, 2012, 07:29:08 AM
I explained to her that "I'm not asking you to marry me right now"  She breathed a sigh of relief and she smiled and said, "Ok, because I was scared" and she thought she was on the spot right then and there.

never a good sign when she's relieved to learn that you're not going to propose.
 
Title: Re: Russian/Ukranian women - views on sex before marriage?
Post by: Faux Pas on August 27, 2012, 07:41:49 AM
Joe are you sure this is the same woman that slept on top of you?

True, in her hometown she would be more inclined to stay away from your hotel room. I took your earlier descriptions as she was a bit conservative, maybe religious. You seemed to be the wet blanket of the two and scared to make a move.

You might now be a product of your earlier "inaction". Quite likely, she laid it out there on the other trips and her firecracker never went "ka-boom". You didn't make it happen. Either she didn't want you too and has you right where she wants you, she did want you too and you didn't now the powder is wet. It might be too late to turn this around. You last chance would be a sincere heart to heart and a ravishing of each others bodies.

OTOH, everything thing in your latest recap from this lady is all brick wall. Quite cold actually. She sounds like a wonderful hostess but, nothing even remotely interested romantically. It may be because of your history, it may be that she never was. Public displays, yeah okay, give her that one but, her zest to get to the dog? C'mon, you've traveled 5K miles. You've slept together and (for your side) pent up sexual frustration. She's rushing home (home alone) to see about the dog? She might as well just text earlier in the evening that she had to stay home and wash her hair. You should do some serious thinking about salvaging your trip IMHO
Title: Re: Russian/Ukranian women - views on sex before marriage?
Post by: Hammer2722 on August 27, 2012, 07:45:35 AM
I agree with Ed here. I really don't think she is into you romantically. She likes you and that is about it. I say keep writing her but start looking for someone else. I truely believe in the saying: " You will surely know when a FSU woman is attracted to you" and it doesn't take 2 years of dating and letter writing.
Title: Re: Russian/Ukranian women - views on sex before marriage?
Post by: Belvis on August 27, 2012, 09:05:56 AM

never a good sign when she's relieved to learn that you're not going to propose.
Yes, not a good sign. One-way street. I think I experienced to date for a long time a similar woman. Finally we get down in a bed but immediately after we split. This woman realizes you're a good man and no replacement at her hands so she can not move on without a solid reason. She is trying to be into you with her mind so far as she is not with her heart.  It's a pity to move on the young attractive lady, however we all have a limited life span to spend it for somebody who may be never love you.
Title: Re: Russian/Ukranian women - views on sex before marriage?
Post by: Misha on August 27, 2012, 09:52:37 AM
Keep her as a friend and start looking for another woman.



Sound advice.
Title: Re: Russian/Ukranian women - views on sex before marriage?
Post by: GoodOlBoy on August 27, 2012, 09:54:17 AM
..... mother is out of town and she has to look after the dog herself?.......  make sure the dog is all right, ........ helping you with the dog....... she had to get back, since the dog has been in the house all day,....... but with the dog all alone

Dude, what's up with the "dog"?
He's getting more action than you. :rolleyes:
I call BS on this chick!
 
I don't mean to be harsh with you Joe, but this girl is jerking your chain.
The "dog" is probably some guy named Sergei or (substitute whatever).
 
You seem like a really nice guy.
 
Some guy's just aren't cut out for this deal, sorry Joe but you may be one of them.
 
GOB

PS.... If there really was a dog (and there wasn't), a normal date with an FSUW wouldn't end at 7:30pm (unless she's a minor?)

Since it was only 7:30, I asked if we were going anywhere else after dinner, and she said she would like to but she had to get back, since the dog........
Title: Re: Russian/Ukranian women - views on sex before marriage?
Post by: ML on August 27, 2012, 10:31:34 AM
Thank heavens you are there on a WMVM trip Joe.

This would be  a disaster if you were on a WOVO.
Title: Re: Russian/Ukranian women - views on sex before marriage?
Post by: JoeS421 on August 27, 2012, 10:49:42 AM
Thanks for the advice guys!  Yes, I can tell she is only interested in being friends at the moment.  Which is fine, but no more trips on my dime, and her birthday is in a few weeks - Instead of sending flowers like I did last year, she is just getting a text message from me, and that's it.  I'm moving on, but wanted to share my experiences for the newbies.
Title: Re: Russian/Ukranian women - views on sex before marriage?
Post by: Eduard on August 27, 2012, 10:55:37 AM
Instead of sending flowers like I did last year, she is just getting a text message from me, and that's it.  I'm moving on
Good plan, Joe!
Title: Re: Russian/Ukranian women - views on sex before marriage?
Post by: GoodOlBoy on August 27, 2012, 11:16:28 AM
her birthday is in a few weeks - Instead of sending flowers like I did last year, she is just getting a text message from me, and that's it.

Sounds like a good plan Joe.
You may also want to send her a Russian e-card (free :D ):
 
http://cards.mail.ru/search/ListPiP.html?gid_list=gid1%2Cgid2%2Cgid3&gid1=24&gid2=39&gid3=80 (http://cards.mail.ru/search/ListPiP.html?gid_list=gid1%2Cgid2%2Cgid3&gid1=24&gid2=39&gid3=80)
 
GOB
Title: Re: Russian/Ukranian women - views on sex before marriage?
Post by: TheTraveler on August 27, 2012, 01:32:56 PM
her birthday is in a few weeks - Instead of sending flowers like I did last year, she is just getting a text message from me, and that's it.

if burning your bridge is the plan... that should do it.
Title: Re: Russian/Ukranian women - views on sex before marriage?
Post by: JoeS421 on August 27, 2012, 01:35:53 PM
Many women are like that, especially if they are attractive and are used to getting plenty of male attention. Once she feels that she's got competition and you have less of a romantic interest in her she may become more aggressive and try to win you back. Whether or not this happens, you should still persue other women and I'm sure that you can find the right one for you. You will be much happier finding a woman with whom you will have MUTUAL attraction and romantic feelings.  Who will shake with excitement and cry the tears of happiness when you tell her that you would like to spend the rest of your life with her and propose marriage.

Exactly right!  Even if she does come crawling back, she needs to really prove herself before I will consider it.  Like other people have pointed out, Ms. Right will not get scared nor freaked out when she thinks I am proposing or even talking about marriage.
Title: Re: Russian/Ukranian women - views on sex before marriage?
Post by: JoeS421 on August 27, 2012, 01:37:41 PM

if burning your bridge is the plan... that should do it.

Interesting comment - Guys, what do you think?  A text message is too impersonal?

I want to still be friends, but more importantly - show her that just because she does not have romantic feelings for me does not mean the end of the world for me.  I will still talk with her and I can deal with this - I am a bigger person.
Title: Re: Russian/Ukranian women - views on sex before marriage?
Post by: JoeS421 on August 27, 2012, 01:39:45 PM

Dude, what's up with the "dog"?
He's getting more action than you. :rolleyes:
I call BS on this chick!
 
I don't mean to be harsh with you Joe, but this girl is jerking your chain.
The "dog" is probably some guy named Sergei or (substitute whatever).
 
You seem like a really nice guy.
 
Some guy's just aren't cut out for this deal, sorry Joe but you may be one of them.
 
GOB

PS.... If there really was a dog (and there wasn't), a normal date with an FSUW wouldn't end at 7:30pm (unless she's a minor?)

Hi GOB,

There really is a dog, I have seen pictures of him and her friends have mentioned it too.  However, you guys are right, I was a little miffed that she went home so early, especially since I came so far and endured two three hour plus flight delays (Travel tip for everyone here: AeroSvit sucks) to see her...
Title: Re: Russian/Ukranian women - views on sex before marriage?
Post by: JoeS421 on August 27, 2012, 01:42:07 PM
Joe are you sure this is the same woman that slept on top of you?

True, in her hometown she would be more inclined to stay away from your hotel room. I took your earlier descriptions as she was a bit conservative, maybe religious. You seemed to be the wet blanket of the two and scared to make a move.

You might now be a product of your earlier "inaction". Quite likely, she laid it out there on the other trips and her firecracker never went "ka-boom". You didn't make it happen. Either she didn't want you too and has you right where she wants you, she did want you too and you didn't now the powder is wet. It might be too late to turn this around. You last chance would be a sincere heart to heart and a ravishing of each others bodies.

OTOH, everything thing in your latest recap from this lady is all brick wall. Quite cold actually. She sounds like a wonderful hostess but, nothing even remotely interested romantically. It may be because of your history, it may be that she never was. Public displays, yeah okay, give her that one but, her zest to get to the dog? C'mon, you've traveled 5K miles. You've slept together and (for your side) pent up sexual frustration. She's rushing home (home alone) to see about the dog? She might as well just text earlier in the evening that she had to stay home and wash her hair. You should do some serious thinking about salvaging your trip IMHO

Or she slept on top of me to keep up a romantic impression?  Anyway, I'm home now as I had the conversation I wanted to have...
Title: Re: Russian/Ukranian women - views on sex before marriage?
Post by: Faux Pas on August 27, 2012, 01:50:06 PM
Interesting comment - Guys, what do you think?  A text message is too impersonal?

I want to still be friends, but more importantly - show her that just because she does not have romantic feelings for me does not mean the end of the world for me.  I will still talk with her and I can deal with this - I am a bigger person.

My personal experience is, friendship rarely succeeds where romance has failed. Doesn't really matter where the woman is from. That is probably more my fault than theirs and while I have had a few over the years that did turn into a friendship, it was certainly the exception and not the rule.

There is a relatively common consensus on this board and others that with a RW once she is sure no romantic possibilities are in the offing, she'll cut it off post haste with no further communication or further clues. I haven't personally experienced that but, I have read it often here.

Life is short. If it's not going to work out with a woman for whatever reason, why waste any more time or expense in wondering what could'a, should'a would'a? Move on. Don't even waste a text. Many relationships don't work out for millions of reasons and nobody has to be at fault. Somethings are not meant to be. If she wishes she can contact you, and you can deal with it how you see fit. FWIW
Title: Re: Russian/Ukranian women - views on sex before marriage?
Post by: Manny on August 27, 2012, 01:57:52 PM
I have always observed that if sex doesn't happen on the first visit, it isn't likely to.

While there will always be exceptions, that is a safe general rule of thumb to work with.

After all these visits, she either just isn't that into him, or he isn't experienced enough to read the signs and make it happen when previously invited.

Really, with this woman, if it was going to happen, it would have done so by now. Religion or not. Irrespective of who didn't read whose signs.

I have always maintained that guys should be well experienced with local women before even considering the FSU. Women are women at the end of the day. FSU women are not from Jupiter; they are like most other European women when it comes to sexual attitudes. They want love and affection as any woman from anywhere does.

From what I read above, this woman gave her green light a few times and the OP ignored it. She will imagine him impotent or not attracted to her by now. She will be confused at all these trips and visits but no action. She will wonder what she did wrong or why he doesn't instigate something beyond the odd teenage-style peck on the cheek here and there.

At this late stage its hard to salvage without frank conversation. No innuendoes or suggestions, just simple questions. Perhaps an explanation for his inaction.

Although, based on what I have read, and with the greatest respect to the OP, he isn't ready for FSU women just yet. He should date locally and get more experience with women than he appears to have right now.

FSU women are not a get-out-of-jail-free card for the socially inept or those inexperienced with women. Quite the opposite, in fact.
Title: Re: Russian/Ukranian women - views on sex before marriage?
Post by: TheTraveler on August 27, 2012, 02:02:45 PM
Exactly right!  Even if she does come crawling back, she needs to really prove herself before I will consider it.  Like other people have pointed out, Ms. Right will not get scared nor freaked out when she thinks I am proposing or even talking about marriage.

i'll offer up another theory...
 
this is a very old-fashioned, inexperienced, and highly-religious girl.
 
and she went up to your hotel room to receive her 'gift', suspecting (perhaps even hopeful) that it was an engagement ring.  and then when you sat her on the bed and told her that you were not proposing marriage, but mentioned living together, her proud side spoke up, and she told you she was 'relieved'.
 
as for equating cautious with living together... seems i read somewhere that chances for divorce go up for couples who live together before marriage.  so proposing living together is really being the opposite of cautious (where marriage is concerned), right?
 
it's possible that this relationship is in a catch-22.  you don't want to ask a girl to marry you unless you've first had sex with her... and she doesn't want to have sex before marriage (or maybe before engagement).  i don't see where the cycle breaks.
 
hey, it's just a possible theory.
Title: Re: Russian/Ukranian women - views on sex before marriage?
Post by: TheTraveler on August 27, 2012, 02:14:04 PM
Although, based on what I have read, and with the greatest respect to the OP, he isn't ready for FSU women just yet. He should date locally and get more experience with women than he appears to have right now.

manny, i always suggest to (inexperienced?) guys like the OP that they land a few slumpbusters before embarking on this journey!
 
Title: Re: Russian/Ukranian women - views on sex before marriage?
Post by: OlgaH on August 27, 2012, 02:26:49 PM

i'll offer up another theory...
 
this is a very old-fashioned, inexperienced, and highly-religious girl.
 
and she went up to your hotel room to receive her 'gift', suspecting (perhaps even hopeful) that it was an engagement ring.  and then when you sat her on the bed and told her that you were not proposing marriage, but mentioned living together, her proud side spoke up, and she told you she was 'relieved'.

TheTraveler, what religious you are talking about?  :-\ :D I doubt any very old-fashioned, inexperienced, and highly-religious girl would go to a man's hotel room or his apartment, more over sit on his bed , unless the man is her relative - brother or father). Also a very old-fashioned, inexperienced, and highly-religious girl usually follows the old-fashioned and highly-religious rules of engagement  :)
Title: Re: Russian/Ukranian women - views on sex before marriage?
Post by: Manny on August 27, 2012, 02:29:18 PM

manny, i always suggest to (inexperienced?) guys like the OP that they land a few slumpbusters before embarking on this journey!


I had to Google that term as I never encountered it, but now I get it, yes, I agree - that would do more good than harm.
Title: Re: Russian/Ukranian women - views on sex before marriage?
Post by: I/O on August 27, 2012, 02:41:22 PM
if sex doesn't happen on the first visit, it isn't likely to
Agreed. I tended to limit it to the first hour - I'd stretch that to a day in extreme cases.  ;D
Title: Re: Russian/Ukranian women - views on sex before marriage?
Post by: Gator on August 27, 2012, 07:09:18 PM
She's rushing home (home alone) to see about the dog? She might as well just text earlier in the evening that she had to stay home and wash her hair.

 :ROFL:
 
There is only one good guideline - would you continue to pursue such a woman if she lived in your city?  Hopefully not.  So why do it just because she is a RW?  RW are not that different to lower your threshold.   And IMO the attraction should be stronger than with an AW because of the geographic separation.
 
Why be friends?   Is she "friend" material?   By that I mean is there sufficient intellectual connection between the two of you to warrant a platonic relationship?   Being different or strange does not count, and you have described some behavior that I find strange for RW.   
 
And surely you do not waste your time on such drama and mystery.
 
If you harbor some thought that you might get "some" in the future, forget it.   
Title: Re: Russian/Ukranian women - views on sex before marriage?
Post by: Belvis on August 27, 2012, 11:20:18 PM
her birthday is in a few weeks - Instead of sending flowers like I did last year, she is just getting a text message from me, and that's it.  I'm moving on, but wanted to share my experiences for the newbies.
Text message instead of  flowers is a sign of resentment. The break can be done in a more fine way: either flowers with Good Bye words (gentleman way) or full ignoring (dramatic way). Just random thoughts  :).
Title: Re: Russian/Ukranian women - views on sex before marriage?
Post by: JoeS421 on August 28, 2012, 12:04:47 AM
I have always observed that if sex doesn't happen on the first visit, it isn't likely to.

Really?  It is common experience for the first time you see her in person to sleep with her?  I admit I'm not the most experienced person in the world, but I have never known a woman to sleep with you on the first meeting in person or the first date unless she was a professional...  In most recent serious relationships, it happened on the second visit, 6th date (UW living in NY), or with a local woman who I was friends first beforehand (slept together on the night we established we would both like to start dating)

From what I read above, this woman gave her green light a few times and the OP ignored it. She will imagine him impotent or not attracted to her by now. She will be confused at all these trips and visits but no action. She will wonder what she did wrong or why he doesn't instigate something beyond the odd teenage-style peck on the cheek here and there.

Well, there were a few yellow lights in there as well.  I tried to kiss her with tongue, but she wouldn't open her mouth, and on our first trip together, I had a little bit of a cold, and she gave me a back rub (with my shirt on).  However, when I went to return the favor, she asked me not to be on top of her and just be on her side...  That's what confused me a bit.
Title: Re: Russian/Ukranian women - views on sex before marriage?
Post by: Ade on August 28, 2012, 12:19:35 AM
Really?  It is common experience for the first time you see her in person to sleep with her?  I admit I'm not the most experienced person in the world, but I have never known a woman to sleep with you on the first meeting in person or the first date unless she was a professional... 


Yes, but he's not talking about the first date. He's talking about the first visit which will, generally, be longer than a day and will therefore span multiple dates for extended periods.


I tend to agree with Manny on just about everything he said.
Title: Re: Russian/Ukranian women - views on sex before marriage?
Post by: Muzh on August 28, 2012, 06:42:01 AM
Exactly right!  Even if she does come crawling back, she needs to really prove herself before I will consider it.  Like other people have pointed out, Ms. Right will not get scared nor freaked out when she thinks I am proposing or even talking about marriage.

Joe, let's get something straight.

She will never come crawling back. None of these ladies will.

Hope that helps.
Title: Re: Russian/Ukranian women - views on sex before marriage?
Post by: GoodOlBoy on August 28, 2012, 06:49:14 AM
Joe, I asked my wife last night to review your thread.
At first glance she said several "au hospity's (sp)" followed by the typical RW eye rolling.  :rolleyes:
 
After she finished your painful thread, I asked her to post her thoughts here on RWD, but she declined.
 
So I will try to summarize her statements for you:
 
First words out of her mouth (no kidding): "Tell man to forget about RW. Find fat AW and have lots of sex".
 
Sorry about this next one dude, but she (like most RW) is very blunt.
 
She said you missed to many of your dates "sex signals".
She was wondering if there is something wrong with you (sexually)?
 
She also agreed with Manny's statement:
 
I have always observed that if sex doesn't happen on the first visit, it isn't likely to.

 
With a sly smile on her face she said to me, "Remember our first meeting in Greece Rick"?  >:D
 
As far as the topic of religion goes, she actually became agitated and said: "Man (Traveler) knows nothing about Russia!!" "We don't have this stupid "highly religious" there that he talks about!!"
 
I know what she is referring to, because she has been here in the GoodOl' USA for more than 7 years and has been to my Episcopal church many times on Sunday's.
 
She associates our churches here in the GoodOl' USA with a lot of built in guilt and punishment for those who practice smoking, premarital sex, drinking  :rolleyes: and just about everything else enjoyable in life.  ;D
 
GOB
 
BTW.... My wife is now a civil servant and has worked here for more than 6 years. She is very familiar with the American way of thinking and their "lingo". One thing that she despises about the American work force is the number of squealer's (rat's) that we have here.  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Russian/Ukranian women - views on sex before marriage?
Post by: Gator on August 28, 2012, 06:53:39 AM

So I will try to summarize her statements:
 
First words out of her mouth (no kidding): "Tell man to forget about RW. Find fat AW and have lots of sex".
 
Sorry about this next one dude, but she (like most RW) is very blunt.
 
She said you missed to many of your dates "sex signals".
She was wondering if there is something wrong with you (sexually)?

 


 :D :D :D :D
Yes, straight and direct as expected from a RW.
Title: Re: Russian/Ukranian women - views on sex before marriage?
Post by: Gator on August 28, 2012, 07:01:44 AM
It is common experience for the first time you see her in person to sleep with her?

Joe, you are not hopeless, yet it is clear that you need more experience. 
 
If you are still interested in RW, you should know a few things.  A three-date rule is often discussed among men looking for a serious relationship with RW.  My experience is that RW are no different than AW, just younger  ;) .   
 
The two of you are adults with hormones and feelings, so if things fall in place and you make her feel comfortable, it could happen soon, real soon.
 
OTOH even if she likes you but just feels lousy, or your apartment does not make her feel comfortable, or she knows you are on a VM trip, sex will probably not happen.   
Title: Re: Russian/Ukranian women - views on sex before marriage?
Post by: Hammer2722 on August 28, 2012, 07:08:56 AM
I think it all comes down to the fact that Joe needs to do some serious reading here on RWD. Joe, I recommend you read as many TR's and topics about FSU women here that you can. Educate yourself before you plan a next trip and I think you can be successful. Good luck.
Title: Re: Russian/Ukranian women - views on sex before marriage?
Post by: Shadow on August 28, 2012, 07:47:43 AM
  However, when I went to return the favor, she asked me not to be on top of her and just be on her side...  That's what confused me a bit.
Perhaps a weight difference would explain that one?
Title: Re: Russian/Ukranian women - views on sex before marriage?
Post by: GoodOlBoy on August 28, 2012, 07:51:53 AM
She said you missed to many of your dates "sex signals".
She was wondering if there is something wrong with you (sexually)?

Joe, my wife made these statements (not to be malicious) because of your opening post:
 
We sleep in the same bed, kissing each other goodnight and she plays with my hair in the morning, and she gives me a back rub since my allergies are bothering me at the time. However, we do not have sex, I do not make a move and although she sleeps in her lingerie and takes her bra off for comfort reasons,.....

And to prove my point about Marina's American lingo prowess.....
 
She is very familiar with the American way of thinking and their "lingo".

She stated:
 
"30 yo man should have "boner" with naked RW in same bed and use it for 5 hours!"  >:D
 
GOB
 
Title: Re: Russian/Ukranian women - views on sex before marriage?
Post by: Misha on August 28, 2012, 08:09:35 AM
However, we do not have sex, I do not make a move and although she sleeps in her lingerie and takes her bra off for comfort reasons, she sleeps face down and wraps a towel around her whenever she goes out of bed so she doesn't show me anything.


For the life of me, I do not understand why you did not make your move  :o  Besides, people have a tendency to turn around in their sleep  >:D  Nonetheless, if a RW is attracted to a man, she will occasionally be the one making the move if she wants him and is not moving along fast enough  :-X
Title: Re: Russian/Ukranian women - views on sex before marriage?
Post by: Aloe on August 28, 2012, 08:10:07 AM

Quote
We sleep in the same bed, kissing each other goodnight and she plays with my hair in the morning, and she gives me a back rub since my allergies are bothering me at the time. However, we do not have sex, I do not make a move and although she sleeps in her lingerie and takes her bra off for comfort reasons,.....
What?! What kind of castrated behavior is that? If a woman did not wanna have sex with you, she wouldn't sleep in the same bed with you. She is there, almost throwing herself onto you, and you don't make a move? I mean, she went in your bed, she has nothing on save for panties, how much more obvious does she need to act? I met a guy like that. Actually twice. Both time lost a little respect for them. I mean come the fluff on, i am here, in your bed, almost naked, and you don't make a move? WTH is wrong with you? No really, WTH?? What else is she supposed to do to get more obvious??
Lol
Title: Re: Russian/Ukranian women - views on sex before marriage?
Post by: Misha on August 28, 2012, 08:16:28 AM
 :offtopic:


Aloe, nice to see you posting.


Now, back to your regular scheduled programming  :)


 :offtopic:
Title: Re: Russian/Ukranian women - views on sex before marriage?
Post by: Aloe on August 28, 2012, 08:17:51 AM
If a woman wants you to respect her religion and attitude of no sex before marriage and whatnot, she just won't get into your bed. That's it. IF she is in your bed in her panties, that is pretty much her throwing herself onto you. Your not acting on it, is shameful and might even make her wonder if you even find her attractive at all. That is a totally bizarre behavior on your part, a local man would have made 3000 moves by then. I bet she finds you weird and a bit unmanly because of this. Definitely funny and amusing.


Title: Re: Russian/Ukranian women - views on sex before marriage?
Post by: Aloe on August 28, 2012, 08:23:17 AM
:offtopic:


Aloe, nice to see you posting.


Now, back to your regular scheduled programming  :)


 :offtopic:
Lol thanks. I just can't believe what i'm reading, why the hell would he not make a move??
The 2 guys i mentioned were also foreigners btw. No FSU man would ever behave this way. Must be the result of years of emancipation. But a very weird bizarre unmanly beaten into the corner scared trembling with tail between his legs kind of result. I mean, how much more obvious can she possibly get??
Title: Re: Russian/Ukranian women - views on sex before marriage?
Post by: Aloe on August 28, 2012, 08:27:01 AM
That being said, i do not condone FSU men behavior of making their moves at any possible moment however inappropriate it may be, day and night, in all kinds of unexpected situations and then not taking no for an answer and persisting and annoying you as hell.
But not making a move when she's in your bed in her panties is the exact opposite end. Somewhere in the golden middle would be nice.
Title: Re: Russian/Ukranian women - views on sex before marriage?
Post by: Misha on August 28, 2012, 08:27:47 AM
IF she is in your bed in her panties, that is pretty much her throwing herself onto you.


I agree with you. Under the same circumstances, I must confess, that I would have tried and tried and if by morning there was no sex, I would have been looking for someone else  :-X
Title: Re: Russian/Ukranian women - views on sex before marriage?
Post by: GoodOlBoy on August 28, 2012, 08:29:09 AM
Must be the result of years of emancipation.

Emasculation maybe ??

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y5OdQGbVNa4
 

 
GOB
 
PS....  :welcome:  back Aloe. It's good to see you!
Title: Re: Russian/Ukranian women - views on sex before marriage?
Post by: ML on August 28, 2012, 09:08:56 AM
I still think many of you are being a bit hard on (pun intended) the OP.

Yes, I fault him very much for continuing with this woman.

However, I  do not fault him for not trying  to be more forceful in having sex with  this woman.

Remember, I am a guy  who many here accuse of being a sex addict and worse.

But look at things he said:

She did not give real kisses in many situations; she would  not even start a French  kiss; she would not let him assume the most comfortable position for giving her a back rub; she took all her clothes with her into bathroom and came out  fully clothed; etc., etc., etc.

Yes, I am a sex addict; but I have shared a bed with women wherein we agreed there would be no sex.  We shared the bed because there were none other conveniently available.  I can do this.  However, I would not continue doing it over an extended period of time.

So I cannot fault the OP for not being more forceful in seeking sex during the times he described. 
I can only  fault him for continuing with this woman much, much too long.
Title: Re: Russian/Ukranian women - views on sex before marriage?
Post by: Eduard on August 28, 2012, 09:12:18 AM

Emasculation maybe ??


 

 
GOB
 
PS....  :welcome:  back Aloe. It's good to see you!
That's a good video! One thing that really bothers me about American women is that so many of them totally act and have an aura of a man. Very little femininity there. Being around RW is always like a breath of fresh air. The last straw with AW for me was when I was still single at a local night club. The band started playing a song that I really liked. It had a nice groove and I just started dancing by myself. There were 2 women also dancing close to me. One of them kept staring at me and then moved closer and started dancing around me giving me flirty stares. She was about 30 yo not beautiful but cute, probably a 7. This was a pretty unusual situation (a woman flirting and coming to dance with me without me even asking) so I was enjoying myself but playing it cool, not making any moves toward her and just moving to the music. Then she turns her back to me, bends over and starts grinding her ass against my crotch. Being a gentleman I didn't want to deprive her of any positive emotions so I didn't back away and continued dancing allowing her to have her way with me. Then, after about a minute of that I put my hands around her waist. I couldn't believe what happened next!
She stood straight and turned around facing me. Her eyes were filled with anger and she yelled at me: "I can touch you and do what I want, but don't you put your hands on me!" She really got in my face and I just walked off the dance floor. This was just the last straw in a chain of many bad experiences, and not the first negative experience with local AW here in Tampa Bay, FL. But to me this woman was an allegory of what most single AW are nowdays. Needless to say I went the RW path from that point on.
Title: Re: Russian/Ukranian women - views on sex before marriage?
Post by: GoodOlBoy on August 28, 2012, 09:18:56 AM
Then she turns her back to me, bends over and starts grinding her ass against my crotch. Being a gentleman I didn't want to deprive her of any positive emotions so I didn't back away and continued dancing allowing her to have her way with me. Then, after about a minute of that I put my hands around her waist. ........ she yelled at me: "I can touch you and do what I want, but don't you put your hands on me!"

Ed, obviously you did not read the sign as you entered the "gentleman's club".  :rolleyes:
 
DO NOT TOUCH THE DANCERS! (unless your putting dollar bills in their panties  >:D ).

Your lucky you didn't get bounced!
 
GOB
Title: Re: Russian/Ukranian women - views on sex before marriage?
Post by: ML on August 28, 2012, 09:22:23 AM

Emasculation maybe ??

Quite an interesting post by you.

This video starting at 1:57 describes perfectly quite a number of the male posters here who are virtually indistinguishable from the female posters.
Title: Re: Russian/Ukranian women - views on sex before marriage?
Post by: GoodOlBoy on August 28, 2012, 09:26:40 AM
This video starting at 1:57 describes perfectly quite a number of the male posters here who are virtually indistinguishable from the female posters.

Yeah, at 2:20 I thought about someone else who post's on this forum.  :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
 
GOB
Title: Re: Russian/Ukranian women - views on sex before marriage?
Post by: Gator on August 28, 2012, 09:30:10 AM

Ed, obviously you did not read the sign as you entered the "gentleman's club".  :rolleyes:
 
DO NOT TOUCH THE DANCERS! (unless your putting dollar bills in their panties  >:D ).

Your lucky you didn't get bounced!
 
GOB

You beat me to the punch.   If Eduard were not at a gentleman's club, she was confused,   thinking she was doing her day job of lap dances at a bikini club in Tampa.    Explanation:   If the club serves alcohol, the woman must keep her bikini on and a man can not touch her with his hands.  OTOH if the club does not serve alcohol she can be completely nude and you can fondle her popka and implants.
Title: Re: Russian/Ukranian women - views on sex before marriage?
Post by: Gator on August 28, 2012, 09:34:13 AM
JoeS,
Since we tried to help you, maybe you can give us some advice. 
 
How do you treat your case of Epididymal Hypertension  (otherwise known as blue balls)?
 
http://www.netdoctor.co.uk/interactive/discussion/Epididymal-Hypertension-Blue-Balls-or-edema-t61296-f10.html (http://www.netdoctor.co.uk/interactive/discussion/Epididymal-Hypertension-Blue-Balls-or-edema-t61296-f10.html)
 
 
Title: Re: Russian/Ukranian women - views on sex before marriage?
Post by: Faux Pas on August 28, 2012, 09:37:29 AM
I mentioned early in this thread that she wasn't in his bed for the rest. Joe mentioned in the beginning that he wasn't very experienced with women, much less RW. I would think a "lightening up" would be in order.

One would hope as probably this woman thought, that Joe would read her signals and the natural progression of boy meets girls would kick in and take over. It didn't happen. Joe most likely had a raging boner and some self control many of us do not have. He played the gentleman which is admirable and is paying the price. The woman thinks there is something wrong with him, her or both. He's home now and he has learned a very valuable lesson and gained some experience he was lacking. Is it necessary to rub his nose in it especially, after the fact?

ML, I have several times slept in a bed with a woman and agreed to no sex. By the day light hours every time, I had broken my promise. In every instance I had sex and never had any intention of keeping the promise. The games people play
Title: Re: Russian/Ukranian women - views on sex before marriage?
Post by: Belvis on August 28, 2012, 09:39:08 AM

Yes, I fault him very much for continuing with this woman.

However, I  do not fault him for not trying  to be more forceful in having sex with  this woman.
The statements above are not quite consistent.
My guess is that if he tried to be more forceful (active) in having sex with  this woman then  results could be:
1) Sleepless intimacy. We would have nothing to discusss now.
2) Drama and following  quick termination of relationship.

I don't  think OP is guilty in not being very active with this woman. If she really liked him she would force him soon or later to have her.
Title: Re: Russian/Ukranian women - views on sex before marriage?
Post by: Faux Pas on August 28, 2012, 09:41:38 AM
Experience is something you don't get until just after you need it
Title: Re: Russian/Ukranian women - views on sex before marriage?
Post by: Ranetka on August 28, 2012, 09:53:43 AM
To the OP:


Do you know why people are harder on you now? Because you were given on the right advises before your trip but chose to ignore them. You were given the following advise


1. Make a move. You have not done it.
2. Talk to her. You did not. You could ask her "Why did not we have sex?" or "Does your religion allows sex before marriage, I am dying to make love to you". Or something along the lines. You asked her irrelevant question of would she lived with you before the marriage. She most likely can't anyway because she needs the visa.




Now she wrote you off. She was much more patient then I would.


Make sure you learnt you lesson. Good luck in future.
Title: Re: Russian/Ukranian women - views on sex before marriage?
Post by: Ranetka on August 28, 2012, 09:57:09 AM
Having said all of that ML has a point as well probably. However you were a fool, embarrassed and insulted her, sorry.
Title: Re: Russian/Ukranian women - views on sex before marriage?
Post by: Muzh on August 28, 2012, 10:42:39 AM
What?! What kind of castrated behavior is that? If a woman did not wanna have sex with you, she wouldn't sleep in the same bed with you. She is there, almost throwing herself onto you, and you don't make a move? I mean, she went in your bed, she has nothing on save for panties, how much more obvious does she need to act? I met a guy like that. Actually twice. Both time lost a little respect for them. I mean come the fluff on, i am here, in your bed, almost naked, and you don't make a move? WTH is wrong with you? No really, WTH?? What else is she supposed to do to get more obvious??
Lol

You go girl. Slap him over the head a little more. I think he needs that.

(This means I agree with you 100%)

There you go, Joe. No more questions for this witness.

On a very serious note Joe, the hardest part to do to have sex with a woman is to get her into bed (or any other location conducive for the hank-panky.)
Title: Re: Russian/Ukranian women - views on sex before marriage?
Post by: CDW on August 28, 2012, 10:47:28 AM
No sex before marriage = Goodbye   (same meaning)   :P
Title: Re: Russian/Ukranian women - views on sex before marriage?
Post by: Aloe on August 28, 2012, 11:26:33 AM
I didn't read the topic, i just opened it and saw that fragment i quoted, so i commented only on that. In light of what ML said, that she was unresponsive during the day, not holding hands or kissing, then i definitely agree, no sex then is logical.
Title: Re: Russian/Ukranian women - views on sex before marriage?
Post by: Muzh on August 28, 2012, 11:50:14 AM
I didn't read the topic, i just opened it and saw that fragment i quoted, so i commented only on that. In light of what ML said, that she was unresponsive during the day, not holding hands or kissing, then i definitely agree, no sex then is logical.

Oh no, no, no.

She got in bed with him and she was on top of him.
Title: Re: Russian/Ukranian women - views on sex before marriage?
Post by: GoodOlBoy on August 28, 2012, 12:32:36 PM
My last advice to the OP (I promise).

Since you are such an avid dog lover, I will give this advice accordingly.

Next time you are in bed with a half naked, beautiful RW any woman, UNLEASH the schnauzer!
 
Don't worry, he'll point you in the right direction.  >:D
 
GOB
Title: Re: Russian/Ukranian women - views on sex before marriage?
Post by: Eduard on August 28, 2012, 01:04:05 PM

You beat me to the punch.   If Eduard were not at a gentleman's club, she was confused,   thinking she was doing her day job of lap dances at a bikini club in Tampa.    Explanation:   If the club serves alcohol, the woman must keep her bikini on and a man can not touch her with his hands.  OTOH if the club does not serve alcohol she can be completely nude and you can fondle her popka and implants.
Gator!  :-*  Ironically the name of the club was Gator Club in Sarasota (you wouldn't happen to be the owner, would you?) and no it's not a strip joint, rather a local singles bar with live music and dancing downstairs and a lounge with pool tables upstairs. I don't think any one was confused, neither her or I. I think she was just being a modern American feminist woman who had to feel empowered and in charge. And by putting my hands on her waist I took that away from her...
Title: Re: Russian/Ukranian women - views on sex before marriage?
Post by: I/O on August 28, 2012, 01:37:59 PM
I don't think any one was confused, neither her or I.
No Ed, she was paid staff - it's not only the east where the rent-a-crowd system is used, just a bit more subtle in the west. Take that to the bank.
Title: Re: Russian/Ukranian women - views on sex before marriage?
Post by: Eduard on August 28, 2012, 01:58:55 PM
No Ed, she was paid staff - it's not only the east where the rent-a-crowd system is used, just a bit more subtle in the west. Take that to the bank.
Did I mention that she was there with a friend and they were pretty buzzed? Paid staff doesn't do that, plus I was a freqent visitor at that place in my single days so knew all the staff there pretty well. Also she was about a 7, really not the type of a girl that gets hired by a club to bring in guys.
Interesting how you guys always try to dig something up and find another angle or a hidden meaning in something that's pretty straight forward.  :D
Title: Re: Russian/Ukranian women - views on sex before marriage?
Post by: ML on August 28, 2012, 02:05:53 PM

Interesting how you guys always try to dig something up and find another angle or a hidden meaning in something that's pretty straight forward.  :D

Yes, I agree with you; this happens quite a bit of the time here.

But, I suppose it is only natural.  Readers don't know the entire story, so they are free to conjure up their own scenarios.

Plus, if we accept the simple, straight-forward situation, then there would be much less give and take here which might cause the board to dry up and wither away.

So maybe we should applaud these 'out of left field' ideas!!   8)

Anyway, back to your original story Ed . . . did she by any chance have a hole in the back of her jeans at one of two appropriate spots?  That is always a good clue in these situations as to how to proceed.
 
Title: Re: Russian/Ukranian women - views on sex before marriage?
Post by: I/O on August 28, 2012, 02:43:25 PM
Interesting how you guys always try to dig something up and find another angle or a hidden meaning in something that's pretty straight forward.
Way  :offtopic:  Ed, no angles, this is an area I do know something about (not much but enough). You know better than me, I wasn't there but you clearly missed something - two pretty close mates of mine own and run a string of night clubs and discos (separate operations) ...............................believe nothing of what you see and half of what you hear, then you'll get to the truth, maybe.  ;)
 
I'll give you a clue or 2 as to how the 'sleepers' are selected and operate. Nothing above 8.5 (if you want to use that sort of measure) as 1) they are far too expensive (here at least) to have enough of them to be effective, 2) the average punter sees them as untouchable, 3) generally they are hired in groups of twos and threes, 4) if they actually leave with a guy, they don't get paid, 5) their primary role is to attract guys to the dance floor and then move him around from girl to girl - that done for 20 minutes, he's a stud (in his mind) his blood rushes you know where and and he'll start spending at the bar which is actually the real deal. You're welcome to dismiss but you can be sure these operations are far more sophisticated than even many of the staff realise.
Title: Re: Russian/Ukranian women - views on sex before marriage?
Post by: Eduard on August 28, 2012, 03:07:25 PM
Way  :offtopic:  Ed, no angles, this is an area I do know something about (not much but enough). You know better than me, I wasn't there but you clearly missed something - two pretty close mates of mine own and run a string of night clubs and discos (separate operations) ...............................believe nothing of what you see and half of what you hear, then you'll get to the truth, maybe.  ;)
 
I'll give you a clue or 2 as to how the 'sleepers' are selected and operate. Nothing above 8.5 (if you want to use that sort of measure) as 1) they are far too expensive (here at least) to have enough of them to be effective, 2) the average punter sees them as untouchable, 3) generally they are hired in groups of twos and threes, 4) if they actually leave with a guy, they don't get paid, 5) their primary role is to attract guys to the dance floor and then move him around from girl to girl - that done for 20 minutes, he's a stud (in his mind) his blood rushes you know where and and he'll start spending at the bar which is actually the real deal. You're welcome to dismiss but you can be sure these operations are far more sophisticated than even many of the staff realise.
Mat, I DJed in dance clubs for about 20 years so I do have a clue... Trust me, this girl was just a customer. Anyhow I should be thankful to her for ending my chase of AW and finding my RW wife.  :D
Title: Re: Russian/Ukranian women - views on sex before marriage?
Post by: JoeS421 on August 28, 2012, 03:38:01 PM
Hi everyone,

I know a lot of people have been beating me up about my inaction when we were in bed together, but I should clear up a few things.  Firstly, she wasn't laying there topless with just panties on and in an inviting posture, she went out of her way preventing me from seeing her when she had no bra on, by wrapping a towel around herself pretty quickly and never straying from the face down position in bed.  And she didn't sleep on top of me directly, she had her head and arm on my chest.

In any case, she just sent me an email saying that because I tried to have public displays of affection over last weekend which made her uncomfortable, we have much different emotional needs and that it's not going to work out between us.  BS - I should send her a piece of my mind.  Like I said earlier, I'm moving on.

Thanks to all for your help though.  I have definitely learned from this..
Joe
Title: Re: Russian/Ukranian women - views on sex before marriage?
Post by: OlgaH on August 28, 2012, 04:14:11 PM
The last straw with AW for me was when I was still single at a local night club. The band started playing a song that I really liked. It had a nice groove and I just started dancing by myself. There were 2 women also dancing close to me. One of them kept staring at me and then moved closer and started dancing around me giving me flirty stares. She was about 30 yo not beautiful but cute, probably a 7. This was a pretty unusual situation (a woman flirting and coming to dance with me without me even asking) so I was enjoying myself but playing it cool, not making any moves toward her and just moving to the music. Then she turns her back to me, bends over and starts grinding her ass against my crotch. Being a gentleman I didn't want to deprive her of any positive emotions so I didn't back away and continued dancing allowing her to have her way with me. Then, after about a minute of that I put my hands around her waist. I couldn't believe what happened next!
She stood straight and turned around facing me. Her eyes were filled with anger and she yelled at me: "I can touch you and do what I want, but don't you put your hands on me!" She really got in my face and I just walked off the dance floor. This was just the last straw in a chain of many bad experiences, and not the first negative experience with local AW here in Tampa Bay, FL. But to me this woman was an allegory of what most single AW are nowdays. Needless to say I went the RW path from that point on.

Ed, difference between a RW and an AW in such case would be that a RW grinding her ass against your crotch would let you grab her in any position without any objection.  ;D BTW were you looking for your Russian wife in the Russian night clubs?  ;)
Title: Re: Russian/Ukranian women - views on sex before marriage?
Post by: GoodOlBoy on August 28, 2012, 05:34:15 PM
Ed, difference between a RW and an AW in such case would be that a RW grinding her ass against your crotch would let you grab her in any position without any objection.  ;D

Yeah OlgaH...... We know. :rolleyes:
 
GOB
 

 

 
Title: Re: Russian/Ukranian women - views on sex before marriage?
Post by: Eduard on August 28, 2012, 06:36:20 PM

Yeah OlgaH...... We know. :rolleyes:
 
GOB
well, some of these pictures seem a bit too much. Looks more like some hookers were invited to a  MOB agency "romance tour". Where were they taken, GOB?
Title: Re: Russian/Ukranian women - views on sex before marriage?
Post by: GoodOlBoy on August 28, 2012, 07:23:35 PM
Looks more like some hookers were invited to a  MOB agency "romance tour".

I don't know about that. They look like simple village girl's to me.  >:D 
 
 
Where were they taken, GOB?

In Ukraine Eduard.  :D
 
GOB
Title: Re: Russian/Ukranian women - views on sex before marriage?
Post by: ML on August 28, 2012, 07:50:00 PM
I have always observed that if sex doesn't happen on the first visit, it isn't likely to.

I saw a reference some time back to a document written to help FSUW who were romancing WM.  Likely someone here has the specific reference URL.

Can't quote the exact words, but the jist of it was:

Hold out on the guy for quite some time (during a first trip to visit you) so he will think highly of you.

But then fock him just before he leaves so he will be enticed to make a return trip.
Title: Re: Russian/Ukranian women - views on sex before marriage?
Post by: DKMM on August 28, 2012, 08:49:53 PM
This thread reminds me of the abuse I took on here when cutting my teeth years ago.  Made many of the mistakes Joe did, and also made the mistake of assuming blanket statements about RW behavior were somehow gospel on here.  I also had an experience that turned "into friends" but instead of writing her off we remain friends to this day (I'm still trying to hook her up but she needs a millionaire good looking young prince, PM me if you are one and I'll introduce you).  You could find my TRs from December 2006 and January 2007 and see similarities. 
There is no reason you cannot end up happily ever after with someone who does not sleep with you or even spend the night in your room the 1st trip you've been together.  I'm walking proof of that.  Other factors should be considered but only the person in that place knows what's really going on.
A good idea for someone in Joe's position would have been to ask to meet her parents.  He never elaborated on that, but the response would be a huge indication of her idea of their future together.   This is especially true for a lady in her mid 20's and still lives in her parents home.
My advice at this point in his trip he has nothing to lose and a lot to gain by making friends with her and at least understanding better of how things ended up like this. 
Title: Re: Russian/Ukranian women - views on sex before marriage?
Post by: GQBlues on August 28, 2012, 09:24:51 PM
...Made many of the mistakes Joe did, and also made the mistake of assuming blanket statements about RW behavior were somehow gospel on here...

The speed in which folks learn things like such, just like the FSUWs they speak of, is highly subjective.  ;)

Joe-

You got some good advice scattered around your thread, but when all is said and done only you know what's good for you.

One other thing you need to take with you. While it may appear the crowd is teeming with raging, raving, roving Casanovas bashing the gates of the FSU MOB - know you're NOT much further from all the rest. The truth is, most of these folks are likely closer to your likeness than the mirror reflects.
Title: Re: Russian/Ukranian women - views on sex before marriage?
Post by: Eduard on August 28, 2012, 09:34:02 PM
A good idea for someone in Joe's position would have been to ask to meet her parents.  He never elaborated on that, but the response would be a huge indication of her idea of their future together. 
excellent advice.
Title: Re: Russian/Ukranian women - views on sex before marriage?
Post by: Misha on August 29, 2012, 02:36:10 AM
They look like simple village girl's to me.  >:D 


 ::)
Title: Re: Russian/Ukranian women - views on sex before marriage?
Post by: The Natural on August 29, 2012, 03:47:41 AM
 On the topic of sleeping in the same bed with a hot woman, that reminds me of something that happened way back in the mid 90’s. I was visiting my elder brother which lived in Oslo at the time. We went out and had some drinks at a place and got to talk to two Polish girls and invited them to our table. They were in Oslo, working illegally (as Poland was not yet in the EU), cleaning houses.

Well, later on all of us went to my brother’s place and continued to drink and chat. One of the girls were smart and very interesting to talk to and the other not so smart but very good looking. Late into the night the hot girl wanted to go to bed and later on I also went to her bed as there wasn’t enough bedrooms for everyone. I don’t remember exactly what we agreed upon, except that my brother told me to only sleep and not try any funny business. So I went to bed, quite drunk and just proceeded to try and fall asleep. I noticed she touched me on the feet but thought I couldn’t be that lucky and it was probably accidental. I’m no Casanova now but were very unexperienced back then, so I can relate to that part of your experience.

Well, a little later she talked to me. She was wondering what was (not) going on as she said she was signaling me with her touch that she wanted some action. So we found something else to do in bed than sleeping. 
 
Really?  It is common experience for the first time you see her in person to sleep with her? 

   I can’t speak for others, but yes, of course, you sleep with her first opportunity you get and she will want that as much as you. Now, I’m not talking here about just any girl you met the same day, but when you have met online and talked a few months on Skype and you make a trip to go see her, not having sex at this juncture, is unthinkable for me. I suppose this certainty really is established when one first look for a suitable girl. Aside from ruling out would-be scammers and such, I also ruled out girls that seemed unaffectionate. Like this girl who was shocked when I sent her a photo of me bare-chested. So I let her go and found a girl much more suitable for me and I haven’t regretted that move at all. Life is short and you don’t want to waste time trying to find a girl that match you body and soul and get stuck, not finding out the body part of the question.
Title: Re: Russian/Ukranian women - views on sex before marriage?
Post by: JoeS421 on August 29, 2012, 11:30:10 AM
Hi DKMM, good to see you back

This thread reminds me of the abuse I took on here when cutting my teeth years ago.  Made many of the mistakes Joe did, and also made the mistake of assuming blanket statements about RW behavior were somehow gospel on here.  I also had an experience that turned "into friends" but instead of writing her off we remain friends to this day (I'm still trying to hook her up but she needs a millionaire good looking young prince, PM me if you are one and I'll introduce you).  You could find my TRs from December 2006 and January 2007 and see similarities. 

It seems like she has quite high requirements.  I don't suppose if you can share if you think her standards are too high?

A good idea for someone in Joe's position would have been to ask to meet her parents.  He never elaborated on that, but the response would be a huge indication of her idea of their future together.   This is especially true for a lady in her mid 20's and still lives in her parents home.

I can answer that.  When we were saying our goodbyes in Switzerland (when the level of affection was going down), I told her, "Tell your mother I said hi" she said "sure" and I said, "I hope to meet her someday."  She just kept a straight face, no smiles, and said "ok".  I thought that it sounded like she was just being polite and not overly enthusiastic.  Even though on this trip, she said she would invite me over if her mom was in town.  You guys think she was BSing?
Title: Re: Russian/Ukranian women - views on sex before marriage?
Post by: GoodOlBoy on August 29, 2012, 11:38:11 AM
You guys think she was BSing?

More importantly Joe, what do you think?

Apt. is empty..... Mom is not there (supposedly on a holiday  :rolleyes: )..... Just you, her and rover.  >:D

Get my drift?
 
GOB
Title: Re: Russian/Ukranian women - views on sex before marriage?
Post by: Jumper on August 29, 2012, 04:34:45 PM

It could be your earlier inaction on your past hurt her feelings, and she wasnt sure were she stood? Who knows now? only her.
You had a few trips, mostly they went backwards relationshipwise instead of progressing,
no big deal, it happens!
[size=78%] [/size]after several trips..this last trip sounds like Shes just not that into you come first to mind.
   (at least now,who knows about the past)

My own casonova experiences aside :D
Even Napolean Dynomite (or Barney Fife for the older crowd) could see she wasn't really acting like she was romantically interested this trip.(although before she seemed to be)

So, after several trips together, your very first day there,,
she goes home to tend the dog? early evening?  really odd,  ok.
lets say she really did have that obligation and no one to fill in...
but not invite you along?

Sorry not buying any of that! lol
Either my animal magnetism transcends all nationalities , or i've just dated hot wanton women, but no women i know, would go home early after being apart for long from someone they had any real interest in, certainly not the  first day this romantic interest was in her home city.

Explian she really needs to let the dog out .and invite him over , fix something to eat together,  and watch movies/tv or got for a walk? - maybe..

Call friends to go let the dog out. and ask to  go shopping? possibly.
or invite him over and things progress naturally-also very likely
Most any other scenario screams she isn't interested romantically.

The questions about how she really felt, should have been be asked before this last flight,as he already had many doubts.. and the first day there , when she bailed early , answered them without asking.
Move along and meet others


This isn't directed a joe, i think he understands better now,
but to those reading who find themselves in some similar situation,

If  you arn't sure, ASK (ask direct questions, no wiggle room)
If you have to ask,  then you know the answer.


Sorry but blanket statements do work most of the time. if you are the exception,
awesome.
Just keep in mind exceptions very seldom  have a bunch of internet questions about how their girl feels about them.
 :popcorn:

Title: Re: Russian/Ukranian women - views on sex before marriage?
Post by: Konfushus on August 30, 2012, 11:09:50 AM
Some of you guys really agree with those Emasculation videos? I find them pathetic. The real "manginas" are the dudes behind that video that blame feminism for their own inadequacies and think it's a man's prerogative to beat on women.
Title: Re: Russian/Ukranian women - views on sex before marriage?
Post by: newjason on September 03, 2012, 07:41:10 AM
Hi everyone,

I know a lot of people have been beating me up about my inaction when we were in bed together, but I should clear up a few things.  Firstly, she wasn't laying there topless with just panties on and in an inviting posture, she went out of her way preventing me from seeing her when she had no bra on, by wrapping a towel around herself pretty quickly and never straying from the face down position in bed.  And she didn't sleep on top of me directly, she had her head and arm on my chest.

In any case, she just sent me an email saying that because I tried to have public displays of affection over last weekend which made her uncomfortable, we have much different emotional needs and that it's not going to work out between us.  BS - I should send her a piece of my mind.  Like I said earlier, I'm moving on.

Thanks to all for your help though.  I have definitely learned from this..
Joe

Hey Joe.
I have been kinda following your story and I have kept quiet and refrained from commenting as I wanted to see how this was going to play out.  Although I saw this email from her coming, I was not sure how long it would take before she gave you the "dear John" letter.

You seem like a nice guy.
As a former member of the nice guy club, I can tell you that one thing is for sure,  being a nice guy and thinking it is noble and appealing is a load of crap IMO.
You have spent the better part of 2 years chasing after this girl and look what it got you.
I can imagine you are feeling pretty pissed off about now, and that is normal. 
You can blame her for being a user, or opportunist , or whatever you wanna call it, but at the end of the day,  you are the captain of your ship, so you know to take responsibility for your actions and you can come out of this a much better man because of it. If you do it right. If you keep your old habits, and continue to let this girl and others play you, It will be just more of what you have right now.

I know this sounds cliche, but your friends are usually right about things and especially things that you are too close to be able to see clearly.  You told yourself all kinds of crap and hoped and wanted and dreamed because you wanted in the girls panties. Your freinds did not have this handicap and were able to identify what was going on, and explain that to you.  We call them freinds because we trust that they have our best interest at heart, otherwise they would not be our freinds, right?

I find your story a little hard to believe, in that I can't envision you + her = no romance/sex.  There is something amiss, either she is way out of your league, or you are not attracted to each other, or some thing similar to that. You say that you spent all this time talking, in deep long meaningful conversations. Yet, you know very little about her views on the most important basic subjects. In all these conversations, you never expressed your desires or anything pertaining to sex, marriage, relationships, ect?  So what the fork were you talking about? If you had the connection, emotionally like you claim, you never expressed your feelings and desires over the phone, on web cam , or in person?  Do you not find her attractive? I assume you did. Why not tell her about what you are thinking?(long ago) specifically,  that you wanna take her home and let your doggy out and in, and out, and ... so on .
Do women find you attractive? Do you find women attractive?  If yes, then take some of that mr nice guy, leave it at home, and go out and get some. Don't fly across the world, and all that jazz, just get some strange. It will help you more than you can conceive at this point.

I was a nice guy to a fabulous woman, and well,  you should read about it in the  "Hi I'm Jason" thread.
It's educational for nice guys. :) entertaining too.  http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=14463.0 (http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=14463.0)

As for giving her an earfull of your mind,  It will not serve any purpose other than to further frustrate you.  She Dumped you.  You may want to say stuff like  ...
...displaying affection in public is not how you roll?  Then, why did you take the trips at all? you knew you would be seen with me. You knew we were bf/gf. ....
Why, is a question without an answer, just suffice it to say..  something like , ....
 I don't appreciate being your travel agency, caterer, and personal escort, only to be hosed when I ask serious questions of the heart.....
....  I feel that kind of behaviour is unacceptable and just plain not cool. Luckily there is Karma in the universe, and everything you give (or take) comes raging back to you 10x .  Good luck with that.  ....

Those are just some examples and I would suggest to you to keep your words and your attention and affections to yourself and begin forgetting about her. Otherwise she will be a Long term emotional anvil to you. No freindship exists now.  It's over and time to put it all in your rear view mirror.


read my thread and PM me if you like.

any time at all..
Jason
Title: Re: Russian/Ukranian women - views on sex before marriage?
Post by: BillyB on September 03, 2012, 11:18:40 PM

In any case, she just sent me an email saying that because I tried to have public displays of affection over last weekend which made her uncomfortable, we have much different emotional needs and that it's not going to work out between us. 


After 2 years you finally had a serious talk with her about a future together so she's feeling guilty and letting you go. The trips you took her on were fun but now that you expect something in return, she doesn't want to hurt your feelings.
 
You should have let her go before she let you go. Know when to say "when". Overwhelmingly most dates you have with women won't lead to marriage. Don't spend 2 years of uncertainty with a woman again. Because FSU long distance dating is different, if you meet another FSU woman, do not leave the FSU without understanding where you two are going. Have a serious talk with the lady on the first trip so you know if it's going somewhere or time to say goodbye.
Title: Re: Russian/Ukranian women - views on sex before marriage?
Post by: JoeS421 on September 04, 2012, 12:01:42 AM
if you meet another FSU woman, do not leave the FSU without understanding where you two are going. Have a serious talk with the lady on the first trip so you know if it's going somewhere or time to say goodbye.

That is great advice, and me and other newbies at this should keep that well in mind!
Title: Re: Russian/Ukranian women - views on sex before marriage?
Post by: It worked for me on September 07, 2012, 11:11:28 AM
I met my wife through an agency (will remain nameless) I had met a bunch of other nice ladies and had a hit and miss time really.

maybe yes, maybe no, maybe sex , I dont know !

I really think each individual lady should be measured in her own merits.

Some I had sex with , some I didnt,

there are no set rules and I found that sexy ladies who didnt want to have sex in the first couple of weeks (and after sushi) werent genuine and fell by the way side.

it helps if you look like Bruce Willis and own a bar !

when are you coming over ! ?

free shots after 11 !






Title: Re: Russian/Ukranian women - views on sex before marriage?
Post by: SANDRO43 on September 07, 2012, 03:30:24 PM
it helps if you ... own a bar! when are you coming over!? free shots after 11!
Where exactly? Empty invitation if you don't specify where your watering hole is located ;D.

BTW, is that AM or PM ;)?
Title: Re: Russian/Ukranian women - views on sex before marriage?
Post by: ML on September 07, 2012, 04:39:11 PM
I met my wife through an agency (will remain nameless) I had met a bunch of other nice ladies and had a hit and miss time really.

maybe yes, maybe no, maybe sex , I don't know !

So with some, you don't know if you had sex or not?

Must not have been oral sex . . . at least according to Barbara Bush.
Title: Re: Russian/Ukranian women - views on sex before marriage?
Post by: Scott_WWS on October 06, 2012, 06:36:08 PM
However, I the Oslo trip was our first together and I didn't make a move because I wanted to demonstrate to her that I can be trusted, and that I'm not only interested in her for sex... 

Joe, this is the first mistake that most guys make.  Wanting to demonstrate that you can be "trusted."  IE - being the "nice guy."

About two years ago I read David D'Angelo's "Double Your Dating," book.  Looking at it from a "I want to pick up on girls and get laid," angle, perhaps slightly lame, kinda like "The Pickup Artist."  But when taken for its "base" analysis of how women and men look differently at love and sex, its insights are invaluable.

A quick synopsis of D'Angelo's thesis is that women (deep down) desire drama and romance.  They want a traditional strong man who makes the moves.  This can be clearly seen by reading any of the FSU women's posts here - Ludmilla's post on page 2 or 3 wherein she says that  FSU women want to be taken, almost forcefully (we're not talking rape, we're talking a man who is confident and proactive).

I read this book and have been to Eastern Europe twice since and I can say that the change was 180 degrees.  I felt like I was "acting" when I was around the women in Ukraine, but I followed the script the book laid out and I really couldn't fight the girls off with a stick.  I felt like a chick magnet whereas a year older I couldn't get any attention.

D'Angelo points out that a woman who sees you as a life-partner will do everything she can to extend the time before sex.  This makes her more valuable as a partner.  A woman in this role "might" change to the role of lover, but not always.  A woman who comes into a relationship thinking that she is only a lover, can very easily become (or want to become) a life partner after sex.  You don't EVER want to come off as the life-partner type if you can come off as the lover-later to be life partner.

I suggest you pick up a copy, will be the best $30 you ever spent.  Or email me, I think I have it on .pdf - I could send you a copy.

In the end, by the time I "acted" the confident guy, I began to feel confident and later met this model-looking UA woman.  We went out on one date and she commented, "I find your confidence a real turn on."  I almost said, "Really?"  but instead said, "I know," and brushed it off.  Needless to say, our relationship went the love route and the door opened wide to a long term relationship if I wanted.

Can't say if she is a scammer or not, it is suspect that your vacations with her were to the two absolute most expensive countries in Europe.

Better off planning vacation over post-sex pillow talk than to wonder about it for 18 months...

take it for what it is worth... just my .02 cents...
Title: Re: Russian/Ukranian women - views on sex before marriage?
Post by: ML on October 06, 2012, 08:38:30 PM
. . . but I followed the script the book laid out and I really couldn't fight the girls off with a stick.

Ha Ha Ha
Title: Re: Russian/Ukranian women - views on sex before marriage?
Post by: jone on October 06, 2012, 09:46:04 PM
Gentlemen, Ladies, and Gentleman Joe,

The first thing I tell someone is that I CAN'T be trusted.  If you are with me, I am a passionate man so understand that if you continue to be with me, we WILL be intimate.  But I also tell a woman that I will not move forward unless I am taken with her and want her for a substantial relationship.  SO, tread lightly, but if we are involved, I am serious about it.  I am not a player, and I am looking for a permanent relationship.

I was in Harkov recently and was with a woman on three dates.  On the third date, I explained that I would like to kiss her.  We had spent a fun day together.  Her reaction was that it was too soon.  My reaction was that it wasn't soon enough.  I told her that we differed on our dating perspectives.  I thanked her and told her I would not be visiting her again.  I heard from her three times after that but would not respond. 

My friends would  say that I  was rather harsh on her, that I should have given her time to adjust to the idea of kissing, but my perspective was that if she didn't feel it, then the chemistry wasn't there and I should look for another, which I did and was happy that I had moved on. 

Good luck in the future, Joe, you are on the cusp of something big. 
Title: Re: Russian/Ukranian women - views on sex before marriage?
Post by: It worked for me on October 07, 2012, 05:40:32 AM
Im sorry but 3 dates and no kisses? Am I reading this right

obviously the attraction isnt there mate, move on

to all those newbies out there, dates are dates, either they work or they dont,

IF A GIRL LIKES YOU YOU SHOULD GET A KISS AT THE 1ST DATE !

Just because you like her and you are a foreigner DOESNT MEAN THEY ARE GONNA LOVE YOU !

take note please .....

Jonny
Title: Re: Russian/Ukranian women - views on sex before marriage?
Post by: Eduard on October 07, 2012, 05:41:24 AM
What so many men don't realise is the fact that women's thought process and logic works very different from ours.
Title: Re: Russian/Ukranian women - views on sex before marriage?
Post by: newjason on October 07, 2012, 07:13:56 AM
After hearing stories like this one, It makes me begin to wonder if some guys even have a thought process at all ..
All the logic you can shake a stick at is going to do you 1 iota of good when it comes to women.

Let your brain  ...

no never mind that.

 :wallbash:

Just  do what comes naturally, otherwise you are acting out of your character and not being yourself.
At the end of the day, that's all that you can do, just be yourself.
Title: Re: Russian/Ukranian women - views on sex before marriage?
Post by: CDW on October 07, 2012, 07:18:45 AM
I have known a girl who do not kiss before marriage!!! 
Title: Re: Russian/Ukranian women - views on sex before marriage?
Post by: newjason on October 07, 2012, 07:32:31 AM
because you married this girl?
Title: Re: Russian/Ukranian women - views on sex before marriage?
Post by: Daveman on October 07, 2012, 08:10:00 AM
I have known a girl who do not kiss before marriage!!!


... and then you woke up??   8)
Title: Re: Russian/Ukranian women - views on sex before marriage?
Post by: ML on October 07, 2012, 10:05:41 AM

On the third date, I explained that I would like to kiss her. 

A kiss is not something you explain about or ask permission.

A kiss is something you do.

Where do you guys come from???    ::)

I only talk about kissing when there is some humor involved.  Like . . .

I want to kiss you, but I can't decide on which lips.
 
Title: Re: Russian/Ukranian women - views on sex before marriage?
Post by: newjason on October 07, 2012, 11:35:13 AM
I agree ML.

If a kiss is that awkward that a guy needs to ask permission , then
I don't imagine sex will be anything resembling fun   LOL

Life is Supposed to be Fun people!
stop making it so hard for yourself.
Title: Re: Russian/Ukranian women - views on sex before marriage?
Post by: Eduard on October 07, 2012, 02:54:40 PM
A kiss is not something you explain about or ask permission.

A kiss is something you do.

very true. Less talk more action would work better.
Title: Re: Russian/Ukranian women - views on sex before marriage?
Post by: CDW on October 07, 2012, 05:21:39 PM
She wasn't my ex-gf or something like that.  We just wrote each other, and I stopped continuing.  It was many years ago.      If a girl does not believe kiss before marriage, then we do not have chemistry!!  So, no point continuing.

   
Title: Re: Russian/Ukranian women - views on sex before marriage?
Post by: jone on October 08, 2012, 11:57:44 AM
Is that really how a kiss happens?  You don't ask before you kiss the woman?  Oh, my gosh! Where have I been all my life?

For all of you funny guys out there, there are women who don't want to have to get penicillin after being with you on a first date.  These women are simply a little more conservative and need coaxing.  Initial reluctance is not necessarily the indicator of a frigid relationship.  (Did you watch "Friends with Benefits" and the five date rule?)   My observation in creating the aforementioned post is that if it aint happening, and you want it to, it is better to confront the issue and move on. 

Now, I am happy to be with some women just as friends.  The chemistry might be alot stronger if you don't push the intimacy issue immediately.  And sometimes it never happens and then you get to meet her girlfriends.  But, then, if it does develop, there is the basis for a relationship.

But, to each his own (or her own).

-j
Title: Re: Russian/Ukranian women - views on sex before marriage?
Post by: ML on October 08, 2012, 12:16:10 PM
Is that really how a kiss happens?  You don't ask before you kiss the woman?  Oh, my gosh! Where have I been all my life?

For all of you funny guys out there, there are women who don't want to have to get penicillin after being with you on a first date.  These women are simply a little more conservative and need coaxing.  Initial reluctance is not necessarily the indicator of a frigid relationship.

Exactly correct.  I have never asked before kissing a woman.

But . . . that doesn't mean that I quickly kiss every woman, or that I have even eventually kissed every woman I have been with.

However . . . I have kissed some women within 10-20 minutes of a first meeting.

It is all in the reading of the situation;  how things are progressing,  how much she is smiling, laughing at my silly jokes, sitting ass cheek to cheek rather than at some distance, leaning into me, if she tells me a sexy joke, if she is very forward in her talking.  It can be a million and one things.

But regardless; I never ask.   I have had very few turn to receive kiss on the cheek.

And your penicillin reference is not very valid.  In the absence of open sores or some such; a person can never tell if they might catch something from someone after a kiss.  So even after X + 1 dates, the kiss recipient may or may not need a shot of penicillin.
Title: Re: Russian/Ukranian women - views on sex before marriage?
Post by: Eduard on October 08, 2012, 01:04:38 PM
Is that really how a kiss happens?  You don't ask before you kiss the woman?  Oh, my gosh! Where have I been all my life?

For all of you funny guys out there, there are women who don't want to have to get penicillin after being with you on a first date.  These women are simply a little more conservative and need coaxing.  Initial reluctance is not necessarily the indicator of a frigid relationship.  (Did you watch "Friends with Benefits" and the five date rule?)   My observation in creating the aforementioned post is that if it aint happening, and you want it to, it is better to confront the issue and move on. 

Now, I am happy to be with some women just as friends.  The chemistry might be alot stronger if you don't push the intimacy issue immediately.  And sometimes it never happens and then you get to meet her girlfriends.  But, then, if it does develop, there is the basis for a relationship.

But, to each his own (or her own).

-j
Jon, I have to admit that I've never asked a woman if it was OK to kiss her either. Somehow I just knew that it was OK by reading a woman's body language and feeling the chemistry. I did get a cheek instead of the lips on one or two occasions, but I got over that!  8) I'm more of a "go with the flow" guy, not aggressive, but asking a woman if it was OK to kiss her could get very confusing IMO, since many women might say "no" when they actually mean "yes". Such is women's nature  :D
Title: Re: Russian/Ukranian women - views on sex before marriage?
Post by: jone on October 08, 2012, 01:41:13 PM
Ed,

You have a pretty good idea of who I am.  If I am asking a woman to kiss her, it is looking into her eyes and with my soul bared.    Have I done this?  Absolutely.  Has it ever failed?  No.  Maybe it's the presentation?

The post previous, that seemed to activate responses was simply the observation that because I had to ask about a woman's intentions I knew it was time to move on.  That seemed to be in line with the ongoing theme of these posts.

I am a one woman, one bride, one wife, type of guy.   I don't kiss many women.  I am neither a speed dater or a player.  And I don't talk about my conquests.  Hopefully I am the type of man that a woman would be proud to introduce to her family.

ML, as far as my penicillin comment, that was simply humor.  My humor might not be what it used to be, but everyone looking over my shoulder laughed.  I'm happy that you can get some women to kiss you after 10-20 minutes.  I don't, particularly agree with this M/O, but if it works for you, congratulations.

Hope you guys all have a great day!

-j
Title: Re: Russian/Ukranian women - views on sex before marriage?
Post by: Eduard on October 08, 2012, 02:20:32 PM
Ed,

You have a pretty good idea of who I am.  If I am asking a woman to kiss her, it is looking into her eyes and with my soul bared.    Have I done this?  Absolutely.  Has it ever failed?  No.  Maybe it's the presentation?

The post previous, that seemed to activate responses was simply the observation that because I had to ask about a woman's intentions I knew it was time to move on.  That seemed to be in line with the ongoing theme of these posts.

I am a one woman, one bride, one wife, type of guy.   I don't kiss many women.  I am neither a speed dater or a player.  And I don't talk about my conquests.  Hopefully I am the type of man that a woman would be proud to introduce to her family.

ML, as far as my penicillin comment, that was simply humor.  My humor might not be what it used to be, but everyone looking over my shoulder laughed.  I'm happy that you can get some women to kiss you after 10-20 minutes.  I don't, particularly agree with this M/O, but if it works for you, congratulations.

Hope you guys all have a great day!

-j
Jon, yes we spoke on the phone and I got a very good vibe from you. I think if we met and spent time together we'd really hit it off and become real good friends. Just to clarify, I wasn't criticising you or your method, I was just sharing my personal experience. We all do what works best for us, learn and adjust as we go in life.
Title: Re: Russian/Ukranian women - views on sex before marriage?
Post by: Vasilisa on October 08, 2012, 05:00:07 PM
I haven't read the whole thread, the first post only, from what I've heard so far she sounds very much like me and you sound very much like my ex husband, and the part about how important your friends' opinion to you proves that. Which makes me think, if you needed a thread you feel you are different, so leave her alone and move on.
Title: Re: Russian/Ukranian women - views on sex before marriage?
Post by: CDW on October 08, 2012, 05:44:47 PM
You all are missing the point.  I don't ask women to kiss.   When I wrote her letter ending with "kiss", she replied that she doesn't believe in kissing before marriage.     

WHY DO YOU ASSUME I ASK WOMEN IF I CAN KISS HER????  Did I mention I ask women????
Title: Re: Russian/Ukranian women - views on sex before marriage?
Post by: ML on October 08, 2012, 07:32:41 PM
You all are missing the point.  I don't ask women to kiss.   When I wrote her letter ending with "kiss", she replied that she doesn't believe in kissing before marriage.     

WHY DO YOU ASSUME I ASK WOMEN IF I CAN KISS HER????  Did I mention I ask women????

CDW, you were not the OP for  this thread.

And, the asking for kissing comments were directed toward Jone, not you.
Try to keep up here!!   8)
Title: Re: Russian/Ukranian women - views on sex before marriage?
Post by: It worked for me on October 10, 2012, 08:18:06 AM
dont think, just do it

when i meet a girl for the 1st time i kiss her..

its quite normal,

obv followed by "wow you look fantastic!"

eta proster )) j
Title: Re: Russian/Ukranian women - views on sex before marriage?
Post by: jone on October 10, 2012, 02:23:58 PM
that's a kiss, not a KISSSSSSSSSS!  The late, great, Robert Heinlein once wrote that kissing some women is better than getting laid by other women.  Women I have talked to say the same about some men.  Heinlein's character, Valentine Michael Smith, would empty everything from his mind but the woman he was kissing.  I've always tried to use this standard with the women I kissed.  For that reason, I am not a casual kisser.

But if you're in Odessa in November, I'll drop by and introduce myself and throw one back with you.

-j

"Kissing girls is a goodness, it beats the hell out of card games."
Title: Re: Russian/Ukranian women - views on sex before marriage?
Post by: Gator on October 10, 2012, 02:53:54 PM
Where is GQ?   He gets a big laugh from "how to kiss" threads.