Some questions

[Kuna]

Hi all,

One thing I have learned here is not to stereotype people and not to generalize. I am just wondering if the comparison betwen Asian women and American women (eating for example) fall into the trap of stereotyping and generalizing though.

Also, one of the thing I read for the international dating is because of the feminist movement. The argument is that men are fed up with the independence and demands of American women as a result of women's movement. Is that true in your individual cases? I am assuming you all dated American women before. What are the general turn-offs for you?

Ada

Ada,

I definitely wouldn't want a wife who wasn't independent and able to voice her opinions.  A girl who isn't independent usually needs to be continually entertained, and that becomes tiring. I would want my partner to go out, build her life, be free to create and innovate and develop her own personal experiences... but, I want her to also come home and "nurture" the family too.  The definition of nurture is something we could discuss for hours!

I'm uncomfortable when comparing Western Women with Russian women.  There MUST be good and bad everywhere. If you'd like to know what I find a turn-off, I'm sure you could find some of these traits in both the West and FSU.

The things that turn me off...

Lack of desire to have a family is a big turn-off for me;
Laziness;
Dishonesty;
Anyone that shows disrespect for their family, especially their parents;
Poor personal hygiene;
Wanton promiscuity;
Drugs and too much booze;
An unbalanced approach to work/career and family life;
A victim mentality;
etc

The thing is, not all Western Women display the above traits, but the ones I've been dating at home were not the type of girls I want to settle down with.

I've just chosen to look further afield for someone who is more compatible with my ideals.

Kuna

[jb]

Also, one of the thing I read for the international dating is because of the feminist movement.

I'm having some trouble with that statement.

I've never dated a woman which I would describe as a member of the feminist movement.  At least one who would define a feminist as someone who believes in the superiority of the female.  Oh,,, I've met them,,, but as soon as I realized they were a woman intent on wearing the pants in a house,,, they were shown the door.  I truly believe there are far more "traditional" AW around than there are femininazis.  Not every AW wants to rule the roost and dominate her husband.   There are however, IMHO, too many AW walking around with a sense of entitlement that is not deserved.  This, I believe, is the chief reason a thinking man will expand his search boundaries, however if he's not careful he'll end up with a RW who thinks she's entitled to live in a Beverly Hills 90210 sort of life.

I think the effects of feminism, from what I've seen, create a tendency for men to use this as a reason to justify his own poor decision making.   Mainly as an excuse to go to an economically depressed country and chase young shirts.  The irony is that by the time those same young skirts have reached the age where the comparable AW was flexing her muscles, the RW will be doing the same thing and the poor dumb fantasy driven AM will be back in the same old boat wondering what happened to that sweet, innocent, and submissive RW.  Russian women are not doormats. 

My wife is as feminine as can be, yet she also possesses the strength to be her own person.  We had both lived alone and independently for a good long while before we became a couple.  We had both proved to ourselves that we were capable of sailing the ship singlehandedly.  We had also both discovered it was lonely work to do so.   The beauty of a good marriage is that a partnership evolves where mutual support is readily at hand.  That goes for AM/AW marriages as well.  With the AM/RW marriage it takes a bit longer because of the cultural adjustments the Russian woman must undergo before becoming sufficiently Americanized to pull her own freight.  I know that "Americanized" is a dreaded word, even a dirty word to some, but it's gonna happen eventually, to even the slowest RW in the pack. 

If any man thinks he can marry a RW and suddenly become "the man" of the house that he was never able to achieve with an AW, he needs to put the crack pipe down and make some much needed behavioral changes to himself first.  The problem most likely did not stem from a feminist AW, but from a severe lack of backbone on his part. 

[Jooky]

Interesting.

I'm not one to typically generalize or criticize American women as a whole. I never ran away from American women or towards some Russian fantasy. I disagree with the contradictory bull I often read about all American women being fat, materialistic, too picky and blah blah blah.

But this statement here strikes a nerve with me and makes me think:

The argument is that men are fed up with the independence and demands of American women as a result of women's movement.

What a ridiculous argument. 'Independent and demanding' is a contradiction. Only control freaks are running away from independent women, and they are running in the wrong direction for sure. It's the demanding women that normal men are tiring of.

My personal experience in America is that the feminist movement has fostered a generation of dependant and demanding women. Many women of my generation or younger were raised to rebel against activities that were associated in the past with the 'traditional' woman: cooking, sewing, gardening and caring for a home and focus on career goals instead, or more likely a glamorous life. Women are prompted to challenge and demand from men, to take but not give. All you need to do is pick up some woman's magazine from the grocery store or flip on the television and you will see.

Reality is that few people end up with rewarding careers. Somewhere around 30 percent of our adult population have a college degree. Sounds like a lot, but that means 70 percent don't. Even amongst that group, how many are following their dreams? Face it, this country is full of women (yes, and men) who are Wal-Mart checkers, data entry clerks, telemarketers and permanent temp job workers. Amongst the vast majority of our population that is not pursuing fulfilling careers there is much resentment, anxiety and depression. Too many people have been raised incapable of enjoying a simple life. They all wanted to be rock stars, and they can't.

Reality is that tasks that have been shunned as menial and unworthy of attention are just a necessary part of normal life. Managing a household is important and involves proper budgeting. Properly raising children is crucial. These are not menial or subservient roles.

What I have seen too often are women unfulfilled in their careers, incapable of caring even for themselves and overly demanding and dependant on the men in their lives. They are unable to make a bed or balance a checkbook. They are confused and needy, not financially, but emotionally. Far from being truly independent and despite the easy life we lead in America, they depend on pills, psychiatry, self help manuals and the voodoo of Oprah and Dr. Phil to get them through the day.

Now, this certainly does not apply to all American women, and I've enjoyed the company of woman who were attractive, enjoyable, intelligent and interesting despite possessing above mentioned flaws. In the end though, it's always been easy for me to walk away from a relationship headed nowhere. There is too much take and not enough give, an attitude that American feminism has produced. It has nothing to do with equality or independence.

Independent and undemanding sounds good to me. How about independent and giving? Is that too much to ask for?

[KenC]

Hi all,

One thing I have learned here is not to stereotype people and not to generalize. I am just wondering if the comparison betwen Asian women and American women (eating for example) fall into the trap of stereotyping and generalizing though.

Also, one of the thing I read for the international dating is because of the feminist movement. The argument is that men are fed up with the independence and demands of American women as a result of women's movement. Is that true in your individual cases? I am assuming you all dated American women before. What are the general turn-offs for you?
Ada

Ada,
I didn't seek a RW because I was "fed up" with American women.  Nor did I ever really have an issue with the feminist movement before I married a RW.  But now I am both "fed up" with AW and take great issue with the feminist movement after being involved with a RW for over 8 years (married for over 7).

The feminist movement in America has de-feminized women.  In their quest to become equal, they have lost much of the feminine allure and feminine characteristics.  American women have not only become equal but they have become the same as men.  Some how Russian women have achieved equality to men without losing any of their femininity.  They are equal but different to men.

I think the biggest difference in how AW and RW handled their equality status lies in how that equality was obtained.  In Russia, it was an immediate and forced change due to Communism.  It was BINGO! one day all workers were equal in the government's view.  There was no debate, no gradual changing of opinions, just all workers are now equal.  In America it was a gradual change coming from a groundswell of a country changing their opinions on the subject.  Equality for women in the workforce here came slowly over time with many different agendas and no one set direction.  We Americans got some of it right and some of it wrong.

When the women of Russia immediately became equal to men in the workforce, they sought ways to maintain their difference from men.  Sure they wore the same work clothes and performed the same job functions as men during the work day, but  they couldn't wait to come home after work to put on their feminine attire and apply their make up.  They fought hard to maintain their femininity.  This concept has become ingrained in their culture now.

Conversely, in America the slow evolution into equality of women in the workforce came about in a very different manner.  The AW confused "equality" with "sameness."  They litterally fought to wear the pants in the workforce.  The line between being equal became blurred with becoming more masculine.

Simply stated; Russian women have mastered the art of being strong and yet still feminine while American women have not.  Now that I have experienced this difference over an 8 year period, I find most American women very unappealing.  If something should happen to my marriage and I found myself back in the dating pool, I would never seek out an American woman for a life's partner because I now have experienced something much better.
KenC

[jb]

KenC,

Interesting that you single out the "Work Force" area as an area of contention.  It's true that everywhere you go in Russia there are monuments glorifying the woman worker in the CCCP.  Everything from T-72 main battle tank builders in the Great Patriotic War, to road building and ditch digging.  These were jobs about as unfeminine as you can get.  In a society where there was a shortage of men laborers, Russian women did indeed pick up the slack.  Russian women are famous for this.  However I doubt this was the origins of their equality.  I think it lies closer to the home fires.  Russian women have always been the mistress of the family as wife and mother.  This, I believe is the key to understanding the difference between AW and RW.  Russian men were smart enough to cede that equality to their wives, as it rightly belongs to the female.

A job in Russia is just a job,,, but the family is the cornerstone of society.  One must never overlook the importance of the wife and mother in the hierarchy of the family when looking within Russian culture.  It is the thing which makes them so beautiful.  I think many AW have lost sight of how important the role of wife and mother is to the society, thus they have lost the dignity of the role in life they were destined to play.

[Kuna]

A job in Russia is just a job,,, but the family is the cornerstone of society.  One must never overlook the importance of the wife and mother in the hierarchy of the family when looking within Russian culture.  It is the thing which makes them so beautiful.  I think many AW have lost sight of how important the role of wife and mother is to the society, thus they have lost the dignity of the role in life they were destined to play.

... and THIS is why I'm crossing borders to hopefully find a future wife...

[jb]

Kuna,

... and THIS is why I'm crossing borders to hopefully find a future wife...

As long as you are able to find compatability you will be okay. Frankly, I'm glad you are as you are.  Being the odd man out is always tough.  With your Ukrainian background you should be a shoe in.  Just keep the weary eye out, don't get suckered.

[ScottinCrimea]

     I agree with many of the comments offered here.  In addition to AW's becoming more like men in contrast to being equal to them, they also expect the men to become more like them.  I can tell you first hand that RW's are very strong and independent when necessary, but they are not afraid to defer the head of the house role to their husbands if he's worthy of the role.  They would much prefer the role of wife and mother.
     After living in Ukraine for a couple of years and then coming back to the US to visit, one of the first things that stood our for me was how overweight most of the women were and how sloppily they dressed, in many cases trying to hide the extra weight.  I don't see many real stay at home moms anymore. If they are not working outside the home, they are out shopping and having lunch with the girls, going to the gym or buying fast food for when the kids and hubby get home.  They are not at home cleaning, cooking, washing clothes, etc.  There is a real sense of entitlement.  I don't see this with most RW's.  Of course I see the same slopiness in the AM's.  Baggy shorts, shirts not tucked in, flip flops as formal footwear....
     My wife did have one bad experience this week.  The dog needed to go out for a walk so she just slipped a coat on over her pajamas and took him out.  Unfortunately the neighbor's dog was out and in heat and ours began to chase the other with my wife in hot pursuit.  She ended up running down the main street for three blocks and through the crowded park before she caught up with him, all in only pajamas and a coat.  Probably would have been overdressed in the US.
     In my case my wife had to take a leadership role in the family at first because I didn't speak the language well and knew nothing about how to get even some of the most basic things done.  As I have learned the language and how things work here, she has been more than happy to defer the decision making and many of the tasks to me.  Of course I'm smart enough to recognize her intelligence and skills and seek out her advice.  I think most good husbands uinderstand that the wife is really the boss and that she is just letting him play the role. As long as we both get what we need and want, I'm fine with that.

[KenC]

KenC,

Interesting that you single out the "Work Force" area as an area of contention.  It's true that everywhere you go in Russia there are monuments glorifying the woman worker in the CCCP.  Everything from T-72 main battle tank builders in the Great Patriotic War, to road building and ditch digging.  These were jobs about as unfeminine as you can get.  In a society where there was a shortage of men laborers, Russian women did indeed pick up the slack.  Russian women are famous for this.  However I doubt this was the origins of their equality.  I think it lies closer to the home fires.  Russian women have always been the mistress of the family as wife and mother.  This, I believe is the key to understanding the difference between AW and RW.  Russian men were smart enough to cede that equality to their wives, as it rightly belongs to the female.

A job in Russia is just a job,,, but the family is the cornerstone of society.  One must never overlook the importance of the wife and mother in the hierarchy of the family when looking within Russian culture.  It is the thing which makes them so beautiful.  I think many AW have lost sight of how important the role of wife and mother is to the society, thus they have lost the dignity of the role in life they were destined to play.

jb,
Are you speaking about the make up of the Russian family structure?  It is kind of ironic to me that my own (Russian) family was matriarchal in nature and so is Lena's.  Both of my babushkas were ball busters and ruled their families with an iron fist.  My own Mother was similar, but unfortunately she married a hard headed Russian man and there was a constant power struggle for most of their marriage.  I just don't know how common it is for the woman to be the head of the family in Russia.
KenC

[jb]

KenC,

Fairly common, I suspect, men are allowed to make the big decisions, i.e., are we going to build a space ship to go to the moon kinda stuff, women reserve the right to decide what we are going to eat for supper tonight.

[Kuna]

A friend of mine married a lovely girl here in Oz... Short hair, harsh face, often wore pants...   

She told him he could make all the big decisions, she would make all the small decisions, and she'd let him know when it was a big decision.   ???

[Jet]

I am just wondering if the comparison betwen Asian women and American women (eating for example) fall into the trap of stereotyping and generalizing though.

One thing my wife comments on from time to time is physical appearance of American women. We were out to dinner last night and she pointed out a woman across from us. She said "Don't look at the clothes, the extra weight, or the hairstyle, look at the shape of her face and the size of her shoulders.... She is a beautiful woman underneath all that mess, why wouldn't she take a little bit of time each day to take care of her self? After all the responsibility is only hers."

When I looked closely, she was absolutely right. This woman had all the makings of a true natural beauty; the almond shaped eyes, the high cheekbones, long legs, etc... If she'd drop maybe 25 pounds, bother to get her hair done, use a little makeup, and throw on a dress, she'd be a real knockout, but instead she'll probably wander through the rest of her days as a dumpy looking house Frau, jealous of all the hotties that turn her husband's head, never coming to the realization that she has everything she needs to become one of them rather than wallow in envy.

Liliya is NOT the health freak that some of the forum wives are. She hates vegetables, and would gladly choose a cheesesteak or McDonald's over broiled chicken or fish. That does not mean that she "lets herself go". She's actually about 10lbs lighter than she was when she arrived in the US 3 1/2 years ago. She makes it a point to take care of herself and indulges in everything in moderation. She absolutely positively will not leave the house without her hair done, and being dressed nicely. I tell her often "Don't worry so much, you look fantastic!" and her standard reply is "By the time YOU notice that I am not looking fantastic it will already be to late"

This is, stereotypically speaking the big difference between American women and Russian women as I see it. The Russian women I've met adhere very strongly to the old adage that says "You never get a second chance to make a first impression" whereas many American women (and men) seem to reserve this only for very special occasions, and do not apply it to day to day life. :noidea:

[KenC]

The American feminist movement was as much about de-valuing men as it was about increasing the status (value) of women.  Russian women appreciate (value) good men much more than AW.  And their criteria is a lot less superficial than AW.  AW have been taught by feminists that they do not need a man.  I have never heard of a RW that didn't want a good man in her life.
KenC

[smsmsmsm]

Hi all,

Thanks for the thoughtful reply. Some feminists would critique that you hold traditional and conservative views about marriage and family. It is also argued that men who are involved in international dating and marriage tend to be more conservative. Is that true? How would you describe your political position? Liberal, conservative, center, etc. I am using some rather broad terms here, so feel free to challenge that.

Ada 

[TexasBoar]

How would you describe your political position?

I'm a Green Libertarian with Anarchist tendencies.

Or maybe an Anarcho-Libertarian with Green tendencies.  It depends.  Old School Texas Democrat---Hightower, Ivins---comes pretty close.

Socially centrist, environmentally leftist, fiscally conservative, but a believer in the duty of civilized governments to provide a safety net . . . just not a hammock.

FWIW, I think there's a difference between traditional and conservative views of marriage, even though believers in both tend to use the two terms interchangeably. 

~Boar

[Gator]

Ada,

I am a "tweensy", neither liberal nor conservative, but vacillate too much to be a "moderate".You will find all types here.  Any attempt to introduce politics quickly disintgrates as those from opposite poles start jumping upon each other.

There is a "poll" function with this board.  You pose a question and provide the poster multiple choices.  The responses are not scientific; nevertheless, it may help to focus the reader.

[Bruce]

Gator, good idea to do a poll to help her, though if she read through the "Anything Goes," column she would find out we are as a group way more over the place than I would like  .  Maybe I'll make a quick poll to show you what Gator means.

[jb]

from Texas Boar: Old School Texas Democrat---Hightower, Ivins---comes pretty close.

You are not toooooo far left then, at least you didn't mention Miriam Amanda (Ma) Ferguson.  Texas' first woman Governor 

Texans are a fairly conservative bunch, regardless of how they vote in the National elections.  I've never been able to see much difference between a Texas Dixiecrat and a Republican when it comes to balancing a budget.  Both seem to like to have the money in hand before they spend it.

Boar, seeing as how you and me live in Corpus Christi on the coast, we have to be pretty "Green" environmentally since we are downstream of everybody.  Every drop of water that arrives here in the Nueces River has been used and reused by somebody else and then flushed back into the river before we get to drink it again.   What a thought...

Politically I've always been an Independent, although the Dems haven't put up a candidate I've had any confidence in for a good long while.  Like lots of others, I often find myself voting for the lesser of two evils.  I didn't like LBJ, but thought he was the better alternative.  I really wanted to and should have voted for Goldwater.  I somehow knew Nixon was a crook just by looking at the man, and Jimmy Carter would not have been my first choice either, (I thought Gerald Ford was a stumble bum) Ronnie Regan the actor scared me silly, although he ultimately proved to be more competent than I had given him credit for.  I personally knew and liked George Bush Senior, trusted him too.  I didn't know his son and didn't have a reason not to trust him.  I still think he's a very honorable man with the best interests of the Country at heart.  9-11 has been a terrible burden to place on the shoulders of any man.

I don't approve of the Kennedy/Kerry style of tax-and-spend, I don't believe a budget should be balanced on the backs of the working middle-class or that budget saving should be extracted from the savings of the elderly retired folks.  I believe promises made by the government, to the people, should be kept, hence my deep and abiding respect for Newt Gingrich.  It's too bad he wrote that book and didn't declare all the income.  I think he'd have gone on to greater things without that mess up.  But I think that was a political hatchet job anyway. 

[BC]

Politically I've always been an Independent, although the Dems haven't put up a candidate I've had any confidence in for a good long while. 

jb going soft on us? I would have never guessed...  hehe...

-just pokin   

[Jooky]

Some feminists would critique that you hold traditional and conservative views about marriage and family.

And some people would take that as a compliment, but this sort of hollow critique leads nowhere. You might as well critique one's choice of religion or favorite color.

It should be obvious to any semi-conscious human taking a quick glimpse at modern society that contemporary views about marriage and family just aren't working out. What the solution is who knows? Nobody here is going to single handedly derail social evolution. What we can do is make the best out of our own personal situations and stand up against criticism for that in which we firmly believe.

It is also argued that men who are involved in international dating and marriage tend to be more conservative.

I would argue that those researching 'international dating' tend to be more 'liberal' and would like to involve politics where they don't belong, but in my experience the above statement is false. The men involved in seeking Russian wives range in their political views.

And you can add another Anarchist Libertarian to your poll. Ha ha.

[BillyB]

I'm central-conservative. I agree with Jooky, men here come from range in many different political views. We have guys here that are extremely to the left.

Ada, you must remember the women the guys in this forum are pursuing plus the women guys are pursuing in China or Vietnam. They come from a Communist or former Communist country that taught their people to think to the left, where religion is weak and abortion is accepted at much higher levels than in the States. It's not an ideal place for a ultra-conservative, bible thumping male to search for a wife.

[BillyB]

 Ronnie Regan the actor scared me silly, although he ultimately proved to be more competent than I had given him credit for. 

Reagan is the single most important man outside the FSU responsible for the Iron curtain coming down. If you're happily married to an FSU woman, give him some thanks. If you're not happily married to an FSU lady, blame yourself.   Reagan is responsible for allowing the immigration of thousands of religious FSU families to the States and he's the one that said "Trust but Verify" pertaining to the Communist's arms agreement with America.

[KenC]

Reagan is the single most important man outside the FSU responsible for the Iron curtain coming down. If you're happily married to an FSU woman, give him some thanks. If you're not happily married to an FSU lady, blame yourself.   Reagan is responsible for allowing the immigration of thousands of religious FSU families to the States and he's the one that said "Trust but Verify" pertaining to the Communist's arms agreement with America.

Billy,
Let us not forget that Regan also scared them Commies silly with his fake Starwars program! :hairraising: :hairraising: :hairraising:
KenC

[smsmsmsm]

Thanks for sharing. Very thoughtful.

I am interested in politics. I can't refrain myself from asking this question. What do you think of Hilary for 2008? Is America ready for a female president?

OK. Beyond this, based on your experiences, why do you think foreign women join the introduction agencies? What are the reasons?

Ada

[Michelangelo]

I think the two party system has failed in America. 

I get disgusted at both parties following the "party line," even when it's bad for the country.  I can't find agreement with either party; rather, I agree with about half with each. 

Simply put, the extreme views of both the left and right turn me off.

Thus, I suppose I'll label myself as a moderate Independent.

Hillary?  She can't be elected. 

Her support for the misguided Iraq war put her as being central or conservative, but the other side will paint her as a liberal and succeed.