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Author Topic: Corruption in Ukraine & Moldova  (Read 305 times)

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Online Trenchcoat

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Corruption in Ukraine & Moldova
« on: June 26, 2022, 11:34:41 PM »
So both Ukraine & Moldova have gotten EU candidate member status, however apart from the state of their Economies as not good the other issue they supposedly both need to address if they are to get any further is Corruption.

So the question is will Ukraine & Moldova ever beat their problem with Corruption?

Both Ukraine & Moldova seem apparently bad as each other both ranking around 122 on the perception of corruption scale which is pretty bad for corruption. Here is a link to a map that indicates corruption throughout the world:

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_Perceptions_Index

Only Russia comes in as possibly worse of nearby neighbours. Neither Ukraine or Moldova have seemingly got on top of corruption over the last few years and Ukraine not necessarily a lot better after Maidan in 2014 than before. Here is an article about the situation of corruption in Ukraine:

http://www.cato.org/commentary/whitewashing-ukraines-corruption

Some good points I think in the article one being that although there is great sympathy for the plight of the people of Ukraine and justifiable anger at what Russia has done despite perception as Ukraine as a beacon of Democracy and integrity it is not a whole lot better than Russia on that score with the current situation masking the underlying problems of democracy & corruption in the country.

While EU countries are not corruption free of course, Italy has some corruption but not nearly as bad, it's still pales in comparison to Ukraine. The question I think is, are legitimate businesses ever going to want to invest in Ukraine with a corruption problem that seems unsolvable?

I personally can't see them wanting to, sure some massive companies like McDonald's that have a huge clout and likely know how to go about dealing with problems will do. I don't see that many others particularly smaller concerns that tend to be essential in large numbers to boost an economy significantly will do. Odds are all the corruption in Ukraine & Moldova will scare them away. I myself have pondered the idea of business opportunities in Ukraine & Moldova of late but have now come to the conclusion that it's a situation worth keeping away from as it's just too corrupt to risk it. That of course and possibly a smashed post war economy quite possibly not aiding a good economic environment in which to invest.

Of passing interest Turkey also has an issue with corruption who also want to be EU members. Georgia though is a surprise, they do better on corruption than Ukraine, Moldova and Turkey but don't yet have EU candidate status though I believe they only just applied recently. Their democracy situation in Georgia though is of course dodgy with the recent fix up of the last General Election there.

So my thoughts are at the moment is that the southern Balkan EU member states are probably better to do business in than Ukraine as despite any good intentions that country is likely always going to be too risky to risk investing in I think.
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Offline Chelseaboy

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Re: Corruption in Ukraine & Moldova
« Reply #1 on: June 27, 2022, 03:20:47 AM »
There has been, and still is,a heavy post FSU Russian influence in both Ukraine and Moldova.


I suspect this is a large cause of the high corruption level in both countries.


If Ukraine wins this war i foresee the Russian influence declining markedly through arrests and deportations...and of course some Russian collaborators are currently being assassinated in Ukraine with a lot more to follow as the war progresses.


All this will lead to a reduction in corruption in Ukraine....but the war needs to be won by Ukraine first.
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Online Trenchcoat

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Re: Corruption in Ukraine & Moldova
« Reply #2 on: June 28, 2022, 08:00:31 AM »
There has been, and still is,a heavy post FSU Russian influence in both Ukraine and Moldova.


I suspect this is a large cause of the high corruption level in both countries.


If Ukraine wins this war i foresee the Russian influence declining markedly through arrests and deportations...and of course some Russian collaborators are currently being assassinated in Ukraine with a lot more to follow as the war progresses.


All this will lead to a reduction in corruption in Ukraine....but the war needs to be won by Ukraine first.

I'm not so sure CB, I get the impression that corruption is deep and widespread, pretty endemic in the country. I'm also doubt whether it's a Russian thing. The number of Russians in the country that identify solely as Russians (apart from the invasion force) I'm going to guess isn't all that high. For sure there are Russian speaking areas of Ukrainians who speak mostly Russian maybe even Russian ancestry but I'm doubtful that any if that is the case.

My thoughts at the moment are that while people are hopeful of an improvement post Ukraine winning against Russia I personally have become somewhat more pessimistic. I think corruption has become so ingrained in Ukraine that it's become part of life, it's culture in a way, same true of Moldova & Russia. Moldova is a small country so with help it might be easier to sort out possibly. Ukraine though I foresee a lot of the post war reconstruction efforts likely coming to grief over corruption and bad management. Possibly even a lot of money that has been promised not even coming forth due to those reasons and when it gets there potentially the international community not being as willing. It's the sort of stories we've heard of other places in the past so I wouldn't be surprised if what we've heard to date doesn't come to much in the end on that front. I kind of see Ukraine cranking on as it's always done with only the odd change along the way but overall no real difference.

I think for sure there is likely a lot of Ukrainians themselves who engage in corruption that it's likely a mode of operating out there. Paying tax of course or rather the not paying of taxes being what many maybe most Ukrainians engage in, then others engaging in bribes, organised crime possibly and the rest. The Oligarch set up seems to be one group against another/others and odds are the vying for their personal interests will continue post war would be my assumption.

I'm not really that up on the ins & outs and detail of corruption up there. Krim has been great opening our eyes to some of what goes on as an overview and I know Boethius has made some interesting contributions here and there also. I looked up, 'corruption in Ukraine' on Amazon and it came up with a few books, not sure what the best buy is in terms of the authors depth of knowledge on the subject, I'll probably just go for the cheapest and see what they say.
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Offline Chelseaboy

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Re: Corruption in Ukraine & Moldova
« Reply #3 on: June 28, 2022, 08:43:20 AM »
Ukraine has a population of 44 million.


Of those, Ethnic Russians living in Ukraine are 11-12 million...that's around 25% of the entire population.


That tells me all i need to know about the Russian influence in Ukraine.


As for non-payment of taxes,well plenty of Brits do that too.


In fact there are plenty of Brits claiming state benefits doing cash-only work on the side...so they're thieving both ways.


Plenty of organised crime here too...with the selling of illegal Drugs being a particularly large source of income and manpower...county lines being a prime example.


Then we have the sex grooming gangs all around the UK...and the human trafficking gangs.


Does that make our society as corrupt as Ukraine's..or more so  ?
« Last Edit: June 28, 2022, 09:12:32 AM by Chelseaboy »
Just saying it like it is.

Online Trenchcoat

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Re: Corruption in Ukraine & Moldova
« Reply #4 on: June 28, 2022, 11:57:00 AM »
Ukraine has a population of 44 million.


Of those, Ethnic Russians living in Ukraine are 11-12 million...that's around 25% of the entire population.


That tells me all i need to know about the Russian influence in Ukraine.


As for non-payment of taxes,well plenty of Brits do that too.


In fact there are plenty of Brits claiming state benefits doing cash-only work on the side...so they're thieving both ways.


Plenty of organised crime here too...with the selling of illegal Drugs being a particularly large source of income and manpower...county lines being a prime example.


Then we have the sex grooming gangs all around the UK...and the human trafficking gangs.


Does that make our society as corrupt as Ukraine's..or more so  ?

Not sure whether those mentioned identify as ethinic Russians or Ukrainian-Russians. I know this came up as a topic before and some dispute how they see themselves.

I know there are problems here but I don't see it as an endemic problem that is persuasive throughout society here. I know a lot of those on benefits really are on the make these days. Many buy posh cars then go claim housing benefits, trade crypto currency or like you say do work on the side. In the past you had to really watch out doing that as if found out they would come down hard on you. These days I'm not sure if they even investigate it much unless something obvious comes to light. Back in the day you got the impression that someone up to that game would always be looking over their shoulder. I've never cheated on anything like that, benefits, tax, etc as they used to go real hard on you if found out.

The impression I get with, Ukraine, Moldova & Russia is that if you invested in anything as a foreigner it would be swindled by any means possible pretty quickly. Like has been said on here before a subsequent case of grabbing anything of value, profiteering from it and when they've made  a lot of money pegging it out of the country to launder their ill gotten gains in a western country to legitimise their gains.
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Offline Grumpy

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Re: Corruption in Ukraine & Moldova
« Reply #5 on: July 05, 2022, 07:23:35 PM »
 I suspect Transniester is included in Moldova's numbers. LPR, DPR, and Crimea included in Ukraine's numbers. This would be what the international recognized borders include. When you have lawless areas not under government control included, the corruption is bound to worse.  Maybe Trench should worry about corruption in Londongrad.
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