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Author Topic: Why was MH 17 on that course ?  (Read 74093 times)

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Offline Boethius

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Re: Why was MH 17 on that course ?
« Reply #125 on: September 21, 2014, 07:33:11 PM »

Welcome to the forum, Brass!  Great to see you posting here.

After the fall of communism, the biggest mistake Boris Yeltsin's regime made was not to disband the KGB altogether. Instead it changed its name to the FSB and, to many observers, morphed into a gangster organisation, eventually headed by master criminal Vladimir Putin. - Gerard Batten

Offline JayH

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Re: Why was MH 17 on that course ?
« Reply #126 on: September 21, 2014, 07:49:57 PM »
How much time and forum space is going to be wasted on answering the absurd? It is about 99% plus certain the any way you look at it putin and russia is responsible for those deaths.
In the same way we have about 5/6 on the forum who attempt to rationalise and justify every action of russia ( in every circumstance--not just over Ukraine) and the amount of time and effort going into replying to their childish nonsense really is a waste of everyone else's time.
A couple of particular posters who divert every thread possible to be about THEM- to make themselves the centre of attention when we should be treating them with the contempt they deserve -leave them to their ignorance. :cluebat:
SLAVA UKRAYINI  ! HEROYAM SLAVA!!!!
Слава Украине! Слава героям слава!Слава Україні! Слава героям!
 translated as: Glory to Ukraine! Glory to the heroes!!!  is a Ukrainian greeting slogan being used now all over Ukraine to signify support for a free independent Ukraine

Offline calmissile

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Re: Why was MH 17 on that course ?
« Reply #127 on: September 21, 2014, 08:12:40 PM »
Glad to see you safely made it home.  You will need to find a thread to tell us what's going on at ground level.  Which cities were you in, etc.

Glory to Ukraine.
Doug (Calmissile)

Offline BillyB

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Re: Why was MH 17 on that course ?
« Reply #128 on: September 21, 2014, 08:51:03 PM »
Ukraine should have CLOSED the airspace totally.



The ongoing fight over there is touching Russian borders. If a few missiles in this war cross over into Russian airspace, should Russia close all their airspace to civilian aircraft? I doubt Putin will do that over your concerns.
Fund the audits, spread the word and educate people, write your politicians and other elected officials. Stay active in the fight to save our country. Over 220 generals and admirals say we are in a fight for our survival like no other time since 1776.

Offline Boethius

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Re: Why was MH 17 on that course ?
« Reply #129 on: September 21, 2014, 09:05:51 PM »
Ukraine should have CLOSED the airspace totally.


Airspace has never been closed in any conflict zone.  Flights traverse conflict zones all over the world every day.  It is only above Ukraine, where terrorists are hired mercenaries, bandits, thieves, and criminals, that a plane was brought down.  This is likely because most other terrorists don't have a powerful state handing them such powerful weapons.
After the fall of communism, the biggest mistake Boris Yeltsin's regime made was not to disband the KGB altogether. Instead it changed its name to the FSB and, to many observers, morphed into a gangster organisation, eventually headed by master criminal Vladimir Putin. - Gerard Batten

Offline calmissile

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Re: Why was MH 17 on that course ?
« Reply #130 on: September 21, 2014, 09:25:05 PM »

Airspace has never been closed in any conflict zone.  Flights traverse conflict zones all over the world every day.  It is only above Ukraine, where terrorists are hired mercenaries, bandits, thieves, and criminals, that a plane was brought down.  This is likely because most other terrorists don't have a powerful state handing them such powerful weapons.

A humerous response to the topic, but relevant.     ;D

http://www.expatua.com/forum/index.php?topic=14504.0;topicseen

Link did not work so here it is..... from expatua.com

Dear Germans:

Yes, we are sorry that the Russian government invaded Ukraine and supplied a missile system and personnel and training that allowed them to shoot down a civilian aircraft. We are sorry we do not have a strong army and are not a member of NATO and we are sorry Europe is leaving us to stand alone against the Russians who used to occupy half your country and treated you like dogs. So, yeah "our bad" for not preventing this person from firing the missile, we were a bit short handed on soldiers and equipment to reach this individual in time.

We understand your "issue" is with the fact that flights were allowed over the "conflict zone". Please note that this is common practice in many "conflict zones" around the globe. Sadly on that day a poorly trained Russian Proxy Soldier mistook your high flying aircraft for a Ukrainian bomber that doesn't exist, or a supply plane that was clearly much to high to attempt a landing a few miles away. Yes, it is our bad for the pilots to agree as well as the entire aircraft industry to go ahead and fly this route without protest.

We are sorry that we were unable to secure the crash site and your loved one's bodies were robbed of their precious belongings while the Russian Proxy Soldiers left their bodies to rot until they decided they had to look like they were doing something constructive other than taking selfies and counting foreign currencies and passing the cosmetics they found off to their girlfriends to model on the internet.

We are sorry that this letter is in bad taste, but we felt that since your attempt to sue our government over this mishap is just as tasteless and stupid, hence our response.

In the meantime, we will be preparing a case against Germany to sue you for WW1 and WW2. We are particularly displeased with the conduct of your armed forces last time they "vacationed in Ukraine".

Sincerely,

E. Atme
Any Town, Ukraine

« Last Edit: September 21, 2014, 09:28:46 PM by calmissile »
Doug (Calmissile)

Offline JayH

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Re: Why was MH 17 on that course ?
« Reply #131 on: September 21, 2014, 09:41:54 PM »

Airspace has never been closed in any conflict zone.  Flights traverse conflict zones all over the world every day.  It is only above Ukraine, where terrorists are hired mercenaries, bandits, thieves, and criminals, that a plane was brought down.  This is likely because most other terrorists don't have a powerful state handing them such powerful weapons.

Mrs B -you are getting careless-- to even make minor concession that it is anyone other than russia itself responsible is actually helping perpetrating the lies the kremlin attempts to promote.  The so called "terrorists" "separists""rebels" are either regular russian military or paid thugs & mercenaries doing the work of russia because putin is too much of a coward to tell the people of russia that he has declared war on Ukraine and is 100% responsible for the deaths and destruction  in Ukraine.
SLAVA UKRAYINI  ! HEROYAM SLAVA!!!!
Слава Украине! Слава героям слава!Слава Україні! Слава героям!
 translated as: Glory to Ukraine! Glory to the heroes!!!  is a Ukrainian greeting slogan being used now all over Ukraine to signify support for a free independent Ukraine

Offline southernX

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Re: Why was MH 17 on that course ?
« Reply #132 on: September 21, 2014, 09:53:12 PM »
it would be very interesting to know who is connected/associated  to the law firm around this guy presenting this case

i woult think they should also be naming euro control      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurocontrol
as potentially culpable if there serious ,

the whole lawsuit  smacks to me of a propoganda/maskirovka  effort to lay the blame on ukraine pre the final report coming out

SX
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Offline Doll

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Re: Why was MH 17 on that course ?
« Reply #133 on: September 22, 2014, 03:35:24 AM »

The ongoing fight over there is touching Russian borders. If a few missiles in this war cross over into Russian airspace, should Russia close all their airspace to civilian aircraft? I doubt Putin will do that over your concerns.
It the state of war? By all means.
 He doubts Purin will! Ha-Ha

Offline Doll

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Re: Why was MH 17 on that course ?
« Reply #134 on: September 22, 2014, 10:12:31 AM »

Airspace has never been closed in any conflict zone.  Flights traverse conflict zones all over the world every day.  It is only above Ukraine, where terrorists are hired mercenaries, bandits, thieves, and criminals, that a plane was brought down.  This is likely because most other terrorists don't have a powerful state handing them such powerful weapons.
Then they should have closed it!

Offline Doll

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Re: Why was MH 17 on that course ?
« Reply #135 on: September 22, 2014, 10:15:22 AM »
it would be very interesting to know who is connected/associated  to the law firm around this guy presenting this case

i woult think they should also be naming euro control      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurocontrol
as potentially culpable if there serious ,

the whole lawsuit  smacks to me of a propoganda/maskirovka  effort to lay the blame on ukraine pre the final report coming out

SX
What maskirovka? It is not Russia but Netherlands is doing law suit.
Trust me, if there were any evidence that Russia did it- they would be very loud (I mean EU and USA).
If they are keeping their mouths shut- then it is NOT Russia.

Offline Brasscasing

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Re: Why was MH 17 on that course ?
« Reply #136 on: September 22, 2014, 11:05:52 AM »
What maskirovka? It is not Russia but Netherlands is doing law suit.
Trust me, if there were any evidence that Russia did it- they would be very loud (I mean EU and USA).
If they are keeping their mouths shut- then it is NOT Russia.

As far as the lawsuit goes it's going to be difficult for the petitioners to get around this...

http://pbs.twimg.com/media/BswiJaEIcAEo7eg.jpg:large

This guy works for the GRU and making statements like...

“17.07.2014 17:50 (Moscow Time) Report from the militia.

‘In the area of Torez, we have just shot down an AN-26 airplane, it is scattered about somewhere by the Progress coal mine.

We warned them – don’t fly ‘in our sky.’

Here is a video confirmation of the latest ‘bird drop.’

The bird fell beyond the slag heap, it did not damage the residential sector.

Civilians were not hurt.

There is also information about a second downed airplane, apparently an SU.’”

An argument could be made that due to the plane being shot down in Russian held Ukraine, Ukraine wasn't in control of that airspace corridor in the first place...

The EU and U.S. have the information and I'd guess a lot more. SX is correct (and Billy elsewhere) IMO that this is part of a deflection or headline grabbing campaign (my reasoning being that if there was the slightest chance of a successful suit, in other words Ukraine being culpable, it would have been a class action suit involving all the victims families or the Dutch government itself filing the suit on behalf of the victims families).

Putin (Kremlin) is getting nervous. It's only a matter of time until something substantial regarding who squeezed the trigger on the airliner gets leaked or comes to light.

Brass
...Build the wall. Even Heaven has a gate...

"Because without America there is no free world" ~ Canada Free Press

Offline Brasscasing

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Re: Why was MH 17 on that course ?
« Reply #137 on: September 22, 2014, 11:10:31 AM »
Welcome to the forum, Brass!  Great to see you posting here.

Hi Boe.  :)

Brass
...Build the wall. Even Heaven has a gate...

"Because without America there is no free world" ~ Canada Free Press

Offline Doll

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Re: Why was MH 17 on that course ?
« Reply #138 on: September 22, 2014, 11:36:44 AM »
Brass, for 101st time- NO social site can be evidence.
None.
There are (or were) the experts working on it who have not SIBMITTED ANY  results of their investigation.
Not a single thing.
After 2 months!
« Last Edit: September 22, 2014, 07:22:40 PM by Doll »

Offline GQBlues

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Re: Why was MH 17 on that course ?
« Reply #139 on: September 22, 2014, 12:28:42 PM »
tsk, tsk, tsk...lot's of noises and *evidence* but the cool 30 mil is still sitting & waiting for a claimant. 5 days have passed and no RWD old fart had so far become 30 million dollar richer, LOL.

Shame.

In the meantime, what we know about the tragedy so far...

1. The US had since distanced itself on every facet of this tragedy. It isn't out-of-line to assume that their own 'evidentiary information' caused them to declare a) no direct link to Russia, and b) removed itself from the body of investigators considering the US have the most-advanced investigative team and tools in the world.

2. 43 Malaysian passengers and crew, including ownership of the airplane, yet Malaysia is excluded from the investigation team thereby not privileged to inspect or investigate even that of the recording of the black box, which is the sole property of the Malaysian government.

3. One implicated suspect to this tragedy, the government of Ukraine, is one of the signatory to the August 8, 2014 'Non-Disclosure Agreement'. If evidence reveal Ukraine was guilty and responsible for the downing MH17, without Ukraine's consent, it will never be held accountable for its crime since the information will not be released.

I will add to this is what the Human Rights Investigation have reported so far....

HUMAN RIGHTS INVESTIGATION

MH17 Investigation – What we know
August 8, 2014 — 7 Comments

In this post I will try to summarise the main facts about the MH17 investigation to date, for the benefit of people who don’t want to wade through pages of evidence, much of which is incomplete and complicated.

1. The evidence suggests MH17 was downed by a BUK surface to air missile.
2. The missile launch site isn’t certain but there is a good chance it is south of Shizhne.
3) The BUK could have been launched by pro-Russian or pro-Kiev forces.
4) The most likely scenarios are a mistake by the rebels or a false flag operation by a group of pro-Kiev operatives.
5) The Ukrainian Security Service claim that the downing was a false flag operation to give Russia a reason to go to war is not credible.
6) We know one BUK on a trailer travelled from Donetsk to Snizhne on the day of the downing, but it wasn’t necessarily this BUK which downed MH17. The Ukrainian Interior Minister published footage of a very similar trailer with a BUK with missile missing, which he claimed was filmed in Krasnodon, near the Russian border. In fact it was filmed in Lugansk, in what it appears was an area held by pro-Kiev forces.
7) Even if it was this BUK, it is not certain this BUK was controlled by the rebels or by Ukrainian forces.
8 ) It is certain that the Ukrainian Security Services (SBU) have repeatedly published false information to implicate Russia in the downing.
9) The SBU intercepts show the rebels communications have been severely compromised so rebel operations are subject to manipulation (giving false orders, infiltration of agents etc), which is going to make ascertaining responsibility for firing the missile very difficult.

10) Regarding Russia’s alleged participation in providing the BUK, providing the crew or allowing the BUK to travel to Russia after the downing, no concrete evidence of this has been provided by any party.
11) The Ukrainian authorities should have closed their air space to civilian air traffic on the 14th (when they say they intercepted a rebel claim to have a BUK) or on the 15th at latest when they closed down the airspace for military aircraft (other than a bombing raid on Snizhne).
12) Western political leaders bear a heavy burden of responsibility for allowing the Ukrainians to bomb civilians in the east of Ukraine with impunity.


(Update 9/8/2014)
(Update 7/8/2014 with information based on uamaps.com)

http://humanrightsinvestigations.org/2014/08/08/mh17-investigation-what-we-know/

Here's another of their report: http://humanrightsinvestigations.org/2014/08/10/mh17-debris-field/)
2 notable notations in the content...

a) The investigation is highly politicised and we have seen how this leads to faulty investigations which assign responsibility to the wrong people. An example in point was the Lockerbie disaster. The investigation and trial saw a probably innocent Libyan official convicted, largely due to the USA undermining international justice by paying a “witness” to give crucial evidence at trial.

b) The site has not been secured by a neutral party. The rebels have had control of the site and it is possible they could have planted or removed evidence. If pro-Kiev forces do gain control of the site, this problem will be doubled as they would likely use the opportunity to steer the investigation towards condemnation of Russia.

c) The chronic lack of security at the site, which Ukrainian forces have been trying to gain control of, despite a Security Council resolution ordering them not to, makes the investigators job more difficult.

Lastly, if the rebels were guilty of this tragedy, why would Poroshenko sit directly with their leaders ad-haste when he refused to before this tragedy, and almost right at the time of the Dutch report, and offer them self-governance and almost all other original demands by the rebels?

These facts, and the waiting/sitting $30 mil, are both damning and telling...
« Last Edit: September 22, 2014, 12:35:34 PM by GQBlues »
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Offline GQBlues

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Re: Why was MH 17 on that course ?
« Reply #140 on: September 22, 2014, 12:29:18 PM »

You failed to answer the questions.  What you have posted is widely known, just as much about MH17 is widely known.  But the specific questions have not been answered.



Riiiiiiight!
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Offline Brasscasing

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Re: Why was MH 17 on that course ?
« Reply #141 on: September 22, 2014, 01:43:54 PM »
Brass, for 101st time- NO social site can be evidence.
None.
There is (or was) the experts working on it who have not SIBMITTED ANY  results of their investigation.
Not a single thing.
After 2 months!

Doll, I'd disagree with you regarding no social site can be evidence.

If, say for instance, someone places '#murder' on their twitter account and tweets "hey everyone just killed my mother-in-law and buried her in the backyard" with a selfie holding a bloody knife then removes the post 10 minutes later - and the police get hold of it through complaint or other means - You can pretty well bet there's going to be an investigation/inquiry and most probably a visit to MIL's residence to check up on her. And if MIL should turn up buried in the back yard and the suspect charged. I'm going to guess that tweet is going to end up as evidence. Yes, there'll be the usual challenges from the defense as to it's authenticity and relevance (proper thing) but it's still submitted as evidence.

In the real world there is a world wide manhunt now on for the executioner/murderer depicted in the ISIS videos. When he is caught part of the prosecution's case will ride on how he was identified using evidence gleaned from the visual/audio analysis of the videos posted on the ISIS social media accounts.

If the experts you're talking about are the crash investigators; haven't they already given a time frame of sometime next year for the full report? Which is about right for these kinds of investigations.

Brass
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Offline CanadaMan

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Re: Why was MH 17 on that course ?
« Reply #142 on: September 22, 2014, 01:54:16 PM »

Canadaman, I assume you believe there are at least four working theories:


1.   Ground-to-air missile fired by rebels/Russian crew.
2.   Ground-to-air missile fired by Ukrainian military.
2.   Air-to-air missile or cannon fire from a fighter jet.
3.   Other. 


Please assign a percentage probability to each, with the sum of the four percentages equaling 100%.




Gator this isn’t rocket science (pardon the pun).
We are living in a day and age when our every move is being photographed by some means by someone.

If the U.S. has satellites covering the world and in particular eastern Ukraine (a war zone in which they have direct/indirect interest) then they have evidence of who was responsible for the shootdown.

Their reticence in providing evidence of their claims speaks volumes.

I don’t buy the “can’t be released for security reasons” excuse that the U.S. government pulls whenever it is convenient for them.
If ever there was an urgent worldwide-interest situation/tragedy that screams “Show us the images!” this is it.

I am in agreement with most of the HUMAN RIGHTS INVESTIGATION findings posted by GQBlues.

As reported by others, this could be a false flag event. Compared to 9/11, this would be child’s play to accomplish (including Girkin’s ‘damning’ social media post).

As much as I would like to assign percentages to your four working theories, I can’t.
I just don’t have a strong conviction or feel for any of them.
I remain open-minded as to who was responsible.
I'm sorry if my reply disappoints you. :)

Offline AC

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Re: Why was MH 17 on that course ?
« Reply #143 on: September 22, 2014, 02:07:36 PM »
Mrs B -you are getting careless-- to even make minor concession that it is anyone other than russia itself responsible is actually helping perpetrating the lies the kremlin attempts to promote.  The so called "terrorists" "separists""rebels" are either regular russian military or paid thugs & mercenaries doing the work of russia because putin is too much of a coward to tell the people of russia that he has declared war on Ukraine and is 100% responsible for the deaths and destruction  in Ukraine.

Reading comprehension problems?  Please go back and read what she wrote more carefully.

Offline AC

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Re: Why was MH 17 on that course ?
« Reply #144 on: September 22, 2014, 02:19:09 PM »
Doll, I'd disagree with you regarding no social site can be evidence.

If, say for instance, someone places '#murder' on their twitter account and tweets "hey everyone just killed my mother-in-law and buried her in the backyard" with a selfie holding a bloody knife then removes the post 10 minutes later - and the police get hold of it through complaint or other means - You can pretty well bet there's going to be an investigation/inquiry and most probably a visit to MIL's residence to check up on her. And if MIL should turn up buried in the back yard and the suspect charged. I'm going to guess that tweet is going to end up as evidence. Yes, there'll be the usual challenges from the defense as to it's authenticity and relevance (proper thing) but it's still submitted as evidence.

In the real world there is a world wide manhunt now on for the executioner/murderer depicted in the ISIS videos. When he is caught part of the prosecution's case will ride on how he was identified using evidence gleaned from the visual/audio analysis of the videos posted on the ISIS social media accounts.

If the experts you're talking about are the crash investigators; haven't they already given a time frame of sometime next year for the full report? Which is about right for these kinds of investigations.

Brass

The social media site evidence is likely just one small piece of the overall pie of evidence, but an important one.  Not sure why anyone thinks it cannot be used as evidence.  IIRC plenty of various convictions have used it as evidence along with the other stuff.

The most important piece would likely be the crystal clear photos which the US spy satellites could provide; but because we do not wish for our enemies to know how good of results we can really get -- they might not be released due to "National Security" reasons.

Offline missAmeno

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Re: Why was MH 17 on that course ?
« Reply #145 on: September 22, 2014, 02:51:41 PM »
Ukraine should have CLOSED the airspace totally.

And русские твари should have stayed in russia

http://static.gazeta.ua/video/201/ljOdo8EPOYQ8.webm

Offline GQBlues

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Re: Why was MH 17 on that course ?
« Reply #146 on: September 22, 2014, 03:41:23 PM »
...Professor of aviation law Elmar Giemulla, who is representing three families of German victims, said that under international law Ukraine should have closed its air space if it could not guarantee the safety of flights. "Each state is responsible for the security of its air space," Giemulla said in a statement emailed to Reuters..

...Ukraine should have CLOSED the airspace totally.

They did, Doll.  ;) Apparently, for some reason, opened it again just before July 17th.


Airspace has never been closed in any conflict zone.  Flights traverse conflict zones all over the world every day.  It is only above Ukraine, where terrorists are hired mercenaries, bandits, thieves, and criminals, that a plane was brought down.  This is likely because most other terrorists don't have a powerful state handing them such powerful weapons.

Absolutely. But as Doll exclaimed prior, Ukraine should've closed it totally during this conflict, as Kiev apparently did a few days BEFORE the downing of MH17, but for some reason opened it for civilian flights unto the fateful day of the tragedy.

Ban introduced on civil flights over zone of military operation in eastern Ukraine

July 8, 2014, 9:06 p.m. | Ukraine — by Interfax-Ukraine

>>" Ukraine's State Aviation Service has extended the ban on civil flights to the entire zone of law enforcement operation in the east of the country, State Aviation Service chief Denys Antoniuk told Interfax-Ukraine on July 8...."<<

http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine/ban-introduced-on-civil-flights-over-zone-of-military-operation-in-eastern-ukraine-355201.html
Quote from: msmob
1. Because of 'man', global warming is causing desert and arid areas to suffer long, dry spell.
2. The 2018 Camp Fire and Woolsey California wildfires are forests burning because of global warming.
3. N95 mask will choke you dead after 30 min. of use.

Offline CanadaMan

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Re: Why was MH 17 on that course ?
« Reply #147 on: September 22, 2014, 03:47:33 PM »

The most important piece would likely be the crystal clear photos which the US spy satellites could provide; but because we do not wish for our enemies to know how good of results we can really get -- they might not be released due to "National Security" reasons.

Nice Catch-22 situation huh?

Can you think of one situation (just one) where the U.S. would make public, evidence gleaned from their spy satellites?


Offline CanadaMan

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Re: Why was MH 17 on that course ?
« Reply #148 on: September 22, 2014, 03:52:37 PM »
Lastly, if the rebels were guilty of this tragedy, why would Poroshenko sit directly with their leaders ad-haste when he refused to before this tragedy, and almost right at the time of the Dutch report, and offer them self-governance and almost all other original demands by the rebels?

Poroshenko has excluded those who might be responsible for the MH17 shootdown from any amnesty/pardon.

Offline JayH

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Re: Why was MH 17 on that course ?
« Reply #149 on: September 22, 2014, 04:23:57 PM »
Nice Catch-22 situation huh?

Can you think of one situation (just one) where the U.S. would make public, evidence gleaned from their spy satellites?

AC has the reason US have not released what they have.If you think about with all the other resources and information available it has laid a clear trail.US info would only lead to more anti-American dribble from the kremlin in an attempt to create even more confusion. As it is--it is best to leave those that seek to rationalise russian anti-social actions to exhaust themselves with their nonsense conspiracy theories.
SLAVA UKRAYINI  ! HEROYAM SLAVA!!!!
Слава Украине! Слава героям слава!Слава Україні! Слава героям!
 translated as: Glory to Ukraine! Glory to the heroes!!!  is a Ukrainian greeting slogan being used now all over Ukraine to signify support for a free independent Ukraine

 

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