The Propaganda War

[missAmeno]

Who said RESIST was BETTER than REBEL?   I think it is a more accurate way of describing what is happening.    Resist who?  The Russians and the Ukraianians that support the separatist movement. ...who else?

Did you really write 'Ukrainians resist russians and ukrainians supporters of separatist movement'?

Do you actually understand how many ukrainians and how many russians and ukrainians supporters of separatist movement?

[missAmeno]

Rest of the report here: http://www.osce.org/ukraine-smm/122920

That is a joke by the way. First who is this individual who was able to pay $10K cash on the same day in ukraine's war zone? Only russian apologists could listen/read this and believe it is a true (as they need any justification they are able to find). OSCE by themselves have to record anything they observe including what they have been told, that is their job but for god's sake those who read should be capable of thinking too.

GQB, when you read OSCE try to distinguish between 'we have seen/been able to observe' and 'we have been told', it kind of helps (specially to those with limited knowledge of Ukraine).

[Muzh]

Interesting perspective for an all out war from a Russian studies researcher.

[missAmeno]

Well, one of his neighbors in Omsk is creating a big stink.

Muzh, it may be worth for them to contact Груз -200 из Украины в Россию (easiest way through facebook probably)
They have lists of some who died and actually seeking contact with relatives.

As well as Центр звільнення полонених (also easy to contact through facebook). These guys doing amazing work in Ukraine and I am pretty sure if approached in right way they could check if missing person held in Ukraine.

[fathertime]

Needlessly antagonistic.  Take this as a warning

[fathertime]

There is no proof that the U.S. orchestrated the events in Ukraine.

Even if there was zero evidence that we could find, that still doesn't mean too much.  How much evidence did we have regarding the failed attempted rescue of James Foley? This may have required up to 100 troops, and probably another 100 or more knew about it...despite this we (the public) never heard a thing about it, until James Foley was later beheaded.   Despite what some thing down thread, this govt. of ours may be incompetent at times, but they are still capable of keeping things, and sometimes rather large things from the public. 


Now that people can see what the govt. is capable of, it isn't too far a stretch to think they could have been involved in Ukraine, Syria, Iran, Libya, and the list goes on.  They can cover many or all of their tracks for a while, but there is little more than zero confidence in what they say.  It is a concequence of earlier omissions.   As for me, I can't say for sure, but yeah I think the USA helped foment in Ukraine and we shouldn't have done that.


Fathertime!   

[missAmeno]

Yes. Because from that picture you posted doesn't tell me anything other than a silly label saying it's ammunition. These trucks were at the border a FULL WEEK and had both the Ukrainians/ICRC inspecting them.

You mean those 36 (or was it 34?) trucks that were allowed to be inspected?
To give you one more hint -> mortar ammunition, rest I hope someone as bright as you could find out by himself.

Good. Then tell me exactly what it means and how it applied to my assertion.

It means you haven't read what I posted

Radars is but one of the equipment being accused of 'trucking' back to Russia. The eastern region of Ukraine had been manufacturing a lot of Russian weaponry and technology. These are classified, intelligence material. As to whether or not the Russians took them back is still left for evidential due process. and Like I said, if they did, then I can't honestly say I blame them because the truth of the matter is, had it been USA, UK, France, Israel, etc...they will undoubtedly do the exact same thing.

And this means not only you haven't read what I posted by also you have no idea what I posted about.

It took 8 years for Ukraine to develop Kolchuga and simple fact that Russia was one of export countries doesn't give them right to rob Ukranian factories and steal technology.

No it isn't. How many 'STATE ADMINISTRATION BUILDING are there in Luhansk? You're just being coy to avoid a direct line of questioning.

You see when you try you can be more specific. Now I know you talking about Luhansk administration building.

I will post about it when i have time (too late now and in the morning have to wake up early)

I don't. You ask me to be specific but you like remaining vague.

I give you hint



But I hope what behind him on photo I posted earlier you are bright enough to guess by yourself.

I am amazed at how ordinary Ukrainian citizens just bought into the whole *investigation result* on who was behind the Kiev sniper attacks.

Well what evidence do you have to contrary? And before you post me idiotic russian propaganda bare in mind I seen enough to know in what direction bullets were going as well as know Maidan well enough and buildings on it. Russian BS can buy only net expert that never have been on Maidan.

[GQBlues]

That is a joke by the way. First who is this individual who was able to pay $10K cash on the same day in ukraine's war zone? Only russian apologists could listen/read this and believe it is a true (as they need any justification they are able to find). OSCE by themselves have to record anything they observe including what they have been told, that is their job but for god's sake those who read should be capable of thinking too.

GQB, when you read OSCE try to distinguish between 'we have seen/been able to observe' and 'we have been told', it kind of helps (specially to those with limited knowledge of Ukraine).

LMAO!

The acronym stands for "Organization for Security and Co-Operation in Europe". You have problems with the way they post their report, write to them. I am not writing anything * additional* to what they report. I had hoped YOU were bright enough to know that.

...You mean those 36 (or was it 34?) trucks that were allowed to be inspected? To give you one more hint -> mortar ammunition, rest I hope someone as bright as you could find out by himself....

OY! "give me one more hint", LOL. I was also hoping you were bright enough to understand it DOESN'T take a FULL WEEK to inspect all 280 trucks parked side by side all in the same area. Your silly little picture with red circles and labels mean ZERO. I will pretend  your silly little *proof* have an ounce of merit and say "Wow! look at that, they ARE carrying weapons! OMG!" (LOL), then who's fault is that? Ukrainians and the ICRC were there an ENTIRE week!

Besides, Kiev had been accusing Russia to be sending weapons and armory since the conflict began, why would Russia all of the sudden decide to *sneak* weaponry under the guise of 'humanitarian aid" in trucks that were to be inspected before it crossed the border for an ENTIRE WEEK?

Make sense now? Your government is making a mockery of all of you for even presenting something as idiotic as that silly little picture with funny looking red circles, arrows, and the words *ammunition*.

...It means you haven't read what I posted...

Deflection 1 - Section A: Avoidance 1.2

...
And this means not only you haven't read what I posted by also you have no idea what I posted about.

It took 8 years for Ukraine to develop Kolchuga and simple fact that Russia was one of export countries doesn't give them right to rob Ukranian factories and steal technology....

No. You're the one who didn't get the point. For Ukraine to manufacture ANYTHING slated for Russia for their military, it would be classified. It will bear military securities...Ukraine DOES not have or retains exclusivity to it or them.

....
You see when you try you can be more specific. Now I know you talking about Luhansk administration building.

I will post about it when i have time (too late now and in the morning have to wake up early)...

Deflection 2 - Section B: Avoidance 1.3

...I give you hint...But I hope what behind him on photo I posted earlier you are bright enough to guess by yourself...

LMAO! Another YOUTUBE proof. Kiev really does have a fascination for youtube, no? I'm from Hollywood MissA. In my town, we can make this dude look like he's talking from the top of Everest, maybe even on Mars. All we really need to have is some ' green' background. Hell we can even make it look like he's standing on the very same spot on the street in Ferguson where Mike Brown got punked.

...
Well what evidence do you have to contrary? And before you post me idiotic russian propaganda bare in mind I seen enough to know in what direction bullets were going as well as know Maidan well enough and buildings on it. Russian BS can buy only net expert that never have been on Maidan....

I didn't realize PM Paet and Catherine Ashton were actors and were working for Russia. 

[Anotherkiwi]

Hoist by their own petard, wouldn't you say?

4.  (U) During a press briefing January 22 in response to a question about Ukraine's request for a MAP, the MFA said "a radical new expansion of NATO may bring about a serious political-military shift that will inevitably affect the security interests of Russia."  The spokesman went on to stress that Russia was bound with Ukraine by bilateral obligations set forth in the 1997 Treaty on Friendship, Cooperation and Partnership in which both parties undertook to "refrain from participation in or support of any actions capable of prejudicing the security of the other Side." 

I'm pretty sure that the Russian support for the separatists at this time is directly contrary to what is quoted here.  And, to continue directly on with the quoted speech:

The spokesman noted that Ukraine's "likely integration into NATO would seriously complicate the many-sided Russian-Ukrainian relations," and that Russia would "have to take appropriate measures."  The spokesman added that "one has the impression that the present Ukrainian leadership regards rapprochement with NATO largely as an alternative to good-neighborly ties with the Russian Federation."

What one gives with one hand, one taketh away with the other.  You cannot prattle on about upholding obligations under a Treaty between two countries and then threaten to change the rules of that Treaty just because the other party decides that it wants to join another Treaty which involves other countries, especially if the latter group (NATO in this case) aren't threatening the party of the first part!  Added to which, who said that joining NATO and staying friends with Russia are mutually exclusive?  NATO's charter/vision/mission statement doesn't include anything about destroying Russia.

2014: Enter - Nuland's cookie festival and tap...

There's many more points and info in between, but I judge you can exercise due diligence on your own.

And so say all of us!

[BillyB]

Obama is many things but truthful is not on the list.  In fact, he may be the most deceitful President since Nixon, yet Nixon was a pro who accomplished much. 

I detest the man, yet I give him good marks for what he has done so far in Ukraine.  You do not want to hear my grades for his policies in Iraq, Egypt, Libya, etc.  With regard to foreign policy, the man is an amateur.

I agree with you on Obama's character. His approval rating is the worst of modern presidents so we are not alone.


I disagree with you on what Obama has done in Ukraine. If Obama's goal is not to intervene he is doing a bad job. If his goal is to stop Putin, he is doing a bad job. Putin can make Obama look like he made bad decisions in the future. If Putin decides to pull a Hitler, be patient for the first few years and then go all out militarily on multiple countries, tens of millions can die. The economies of many countries can be shattered. Obama, like the Europe in the 30's, will be accused of doing too little to deter the aggressors.


Pertaining to the situation in Ukraine, Putin is more of control of how Obama is to be judged than Obama himself. Sanctions may have seemed to slow Putin down but Putin is still going after his objective.

[Gator]

Are you getting this yet?

I will give you my understanding of your position. But first, I ask:  I do not think anyone can sit on the fence now.  Are you for Ukraine and the efforts of its democratically elected government to defend its sovereign land, or do you support Putin and his efforts to destabilize Ukraine? 

Now, to your position.  I can understand the support given to Russia by our Russian members, explained by nationalism and propaganda (the title of this thread).   What intrigues me are the positions taken by you and Shadow. 

Even though Shadow is European and 154 of his countrymen were slaughtered by the malfeasance of Russia and pro-Russian insurgents, Shadow seems to have the same pro-Russian sentiments as our Russian members.  He supported Russian invasion of Georgia and the annexation of Crimea.  Today, like my 15-yo stepson, he perhaps is pleased with the Russian escalation of the conflict, namely an invasion by over a thousand regular Russian ground troops into the Mariupol region.  Evidently Shadow has strong ties with Russia.  And I guess Manny is the same.

I consider your position not as baffling as Shadow's.   Let me try.

Your position seems to derive from the ouster of the pro-Russian Yanukovych.  I gather you are more offended by the manner  in which he was ousted (e. g., civil unrest, possibly not following ) rather than the policy direction taken by his democratically elected replacement to seek closer ties with Europe.   

Surely something concerns you more than apparently not following parliamentary procedure.  Robert's Rules of Order are important, yet people are dying in protecting their sovereign land against invaders.  And I assume what drives you the most is in your mind the US government started this by playing a heavy role in ousting Yanukovych, even though there is no direct proof of such.  This is confirmed when you wrote earlier:   "My beef in this entire stupidity is the illegal overthrow of a legitimate government (coerced, manipulated, supported, orchestrated) by my own government for our own geopolitical advantage like we did in Yugoslavia."

Let us assume you are correct, the CIA played the Ukrainian people to include starting and fomenting the deadly Euromaidan protests.   However, that is done and the Ukrainian people have elected a new President.   Russia who for centuries has treated Ukraine as a vassal state is responding by first annexing a large part of Ukraine's sovereign territory and now invading  directly on a limited scale another large part of Ukraine.  What say you about Russia today?

[Muzh]

A protest, brought to you by your friendly CIA.

[Muzh]

More propaganda, brought to you by your friendly CIA and Hollywood.

[Muzh]

Heh, they know they are next.

[Muzh]

Heh, the filthy lying bitch, right, comrades?

[Muzh]

Heh, I'm ptretty sure he is lying too. Maybe reading a script provided by the friendly CIA.

[Muzh]

Brought to you by the CIA and Hollywood. You can see Steven Spielberg here.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QiZMLhVehjk&feature=youtu.be

[Muzh]

It's amazing how the CIA works. So much disinformation has even confused members of Putin's cabinet.

[Boethius]

Even if there was zero evidence that we could find, that still doesn't mean too much.  How much evidence did we have regarding the failed attempted rescue of James Foley? This may have required up to 100 troops, and probably another 100 or more knew about it...despite this we (the public) never heard a thing about it, until James Foley was later beheaded.   Despite what some thing down thread, this govt. of ours may be incompetent at times, but they are still capable of keeping things, and sometimes rather large things from the public. 


Now that people can see what the govt. is capable of, it isn't too far a stretch to think they could have been involved in Ukraine, Syria, Iran, Libya, and the list goes on.  They can cover many or all of their tracks for a while, but there is little more than zero confidence in what they say.  It is a concequence of earlier omissions.   As for me, I can't say for sure, but yeah I think the USA helped foment in Ukraine and we shouldn't have done that.


Fathertime!

Not every world event is orchestrated by the U.S.  We now have proof that Russian troops have entered Ukraine.  There is proof of advanced weaponry being used, observed by journalists.  That is in addition to journalists noting the same during the so called "humanitarian convoy".


Since Day 1, I have posted reports, by pro Russia demonstrators, who openly stated they'd been trained by Russian security forces, and were being paid as much as $80 a day to foment unrest.  In Donbass, paid mercenaries flooded the region.  The "Peoples' Republics" of Lugansk and Donetsk were controlled and directed not by locals, but by Russian nationals, all with known ties to the FSU.  Now, we have a reported 1,000 Russian troops on Ukrainian soil, all while the Putinistas continue to assert America is behind this conflict, and Russia "will not invade".  Treaties mean nothing to this Russian government, and the West looks on, impotently, while war is ignited once again on European soil.


The reason Ukrainians on this forum have stated Russia is behind this, not the US, is because we know our history.  We need only look back to over three centuries to note Russia's duplicity in its dealings with Ukraine. 

[Boethius]

OY! "give me one more hint", LOL. I was also hoping you were bright enough to understand it DOESN'T take a FULL WEEK to inspect all 280 trucks parked side by side all in the same area. Your silly little picture with red circles and labels mean ZERO. I will pretend  your silly little *proof* have an ounce of merit and say "Wow! look at that, they ARE carrying weapons! OMG!" (LOL), then who's fault is that? Ukrainians and the ICRC were there an ENTIRE week!

No, Ukraine was not allowed to inspect all vehicles.  Some crossed in terrorist controlled territories. 

Journalists who viewed the truck contents noted many were almost empty.  So, was this a PR stunt for domestic (Russian) consumption, or an exercise to provide the terrorists with support?

Besides, Kiev had been accusing Russia to be sending weapons and armory since the conflict began, why would Russia all of the sudden decide to *sneak* weaponry under the guise of 'humanitarian aid" in trucks that were to be inspected before it crossed the border for an ENTIRE WEEK?

As I noted, not all the trucks were inspected, and Russia did not allow all trucks to be inspected.  In fact, it parked them at military depots in Russia, and refused Ukrainian officials access to them.

Throughout, the Russians claimed they were coordinating through the ICRC.  That was not true.

http://news.nationalpost.com/2014/08/14/russian-aid-convoy-heads-toward-rebel-held-territory-ignoring-ukraines-demands-for-an-inspection/

No. You're the one who didn't get the point. For Ukraine to manufacture ANYTHING slated for Russia for their military, it would be classified. It will bear military securities...Ukraine DOES not have or retains exclusivity to it or them.

No, Ukraine does have exclusivity on weapons systems it develops on its soil, with its resources.  The work of the factory, and its equipment, may be classified, but that is for Ukraine, not Russia, to decide.


Russia supplied a part to Ukraine for its tanks.  A few years ago, it refused to supply the part any longer, and Ukraine had to redevelop its tanks to deal with this.  It retained exclusivity to the part.  Same with Ukraine's factories.  Theft is theft.  I am beginning to think this is what the "humanitarian aid" was about.

[GQBlues]

No, Ukraine was not allowed to inspect all vehicles.  Some crossed in terrorist controlled territories...

 

Boethius-

You know when you Google-search for information hoping to find that would support your point, you should at least do one of two things...a) read and understand the content of your selected article; and b) search diligently. You're one of the *more* objective person I knew of on this site, albeit, and understandably, driven by your emotions of late. As a lawyer, you should know, or should have known, that such tendencies can very easily make you lose any sense of objectivity.

I cite:

1. 

Ukrainian border guards began on Thursday to inspect a Russian truck convoy carrying aid earmarked for humanitarian relief in eastern Ukraine that has been stranded at the frontier between the two former Soviet republics for nearly a week.

2. 

"I can confirm that at 2:15 p.m. (1115 GMT/7.15 a.m. EDT) the Ukrainian side began border-customs formalities relating to the Russian humanitarian cargo," border guard spokesman Andriy Demchenko told Reuters.

3. 

"We are ready to roll with this convoy, there has been a last-minute delay. We are hopeful that it will be resolved shortly," ICRC spokesman Ewan Watson told Reuters.

4. 

"Last-minute decisions from the Ukrainian side have delayed the process," he said, declining to elaborate.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/08/21/us-ukraine-crisis-russia-convoy-idUSKBN0GL13M20140821

5. 

The International Committee for the Red Cross (ICRC), which was supposed to monitor the aid mission, did not escort the convoy after it failed to receive "sufficient security guarantees from the fighting parties", it said in a statement. But ICRC staff members were reportedly with the aid supplies in Luhansk.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/aug/23/donetsk-ukraine-russia-vladimir-putin


See what happens is when you do what you just did, it places you at a distinct disadvantage the next time you try to make a point because it tarnishes your future attempt to be objective. I mean look at Muzh. He probably skipped his morning coffee and got all caught up Googling information. Emotion, while sometimes endearing, can be destructive to reason and logic. He'd get a heart attack if he isn't careful.

Luhansk, the targeted destination for this 'aid', was already under rebel control for months leading up to this moment just as pathways of travel from Russia. Why then even try to attempt to do *what they conceivable can do at any time*, under the guise of humanitarian flagship?

As for the 'shared' trade and co-op between Ukraine and Russia dealing with military ware, you can say whatever you want to say about it, but the bottom line is, the 'sensitivity and exclusivity' lies solely with Russia.

[Boethius]

See the second paragraph of my link.


Luhansk was not rebel controlled at the time the convoy rolled into town.  But areas to the south were. 


Russia was not concerned with providing "humanitarian aid" until it looked as if the conflict would be over.  That is what that "aid" was about.


Russia cannot have exclusivity over weapons systems owned, and produced, in another country. 

[GQBlues]

...I consider your position not as baffling as Shadow's.   Let me try....

No need, really. My position, sentiment and conviction about this conflict had been shared and expressed fairly clearly throughout this and other discussions. The opening summary of that last cable I shared already forewarned of events we are witnessing today, Gator. I'm surprised why people are *surprise* to the *unfolding* events that's being serve up with each passing day.

"In Ukraine, these include fears that the issue could potentially split the country in two, leading to violence or even, some claim, civil war, which would force Russia to decide whether to intervene."

That was back in 2008. 2 years before Yanukovich.

Any other insignificant verbal salvo between us minions, is simply that, insignificant. It is quite comical how, with every passing days, we all exchange links and social media installments relating to an event that was already scripted verbatim.

In terms of my personal opinion regarding the conflict? My sympathies to ALL the people of Ukraine. They suffer the pains of being pawns by the powers that be just as the millions that came before them in our world. My dismay and disappointment is nestled in the fact this still could have been prevented had *opportunities* been heeded during the course of where we are today. IMHO, undeniably, there had been numerous opportunities to change course.

But I do hope when this dust settles down, Ukraine will eventually rise and find itself in the best possible circumstances.

[Muzh]

No need, really. My position, sentiment and conviction about this conflict had been shared and expressed fairly clearly throughout this and other discussions. The opening summary of that last cable I shared already forewarned of events we are witnessing today, Gator. I'm surprised why people are *surprise* to the *unfolding* events that's being serve up with each passing day.

"In Ukraine, these include fears that the issue could potentially split the country in two, leading to violence or even, some claim, civil war, which would force Russia to decide whether to intervene."

That was back in 2008. 2 years before Yanukovich.

Hey cool and sexy dude, that is called a frozen conflict. You know what that is, right?

Any other insignificant verbal salvo between us minions, is simply that, insignificant. It is quite comical how, with every passing days, we all exchange links and social media installments relating to an event that was already scripted verbatim.

In terms of my personal opinion regarding the conflict? My sympathies to ALL the people of Ukraine. They suffer the pains of being pawns by the powers that be just as the millions that came before them in our world. My dismay and disappointment is nestled in the fact this still could have been prevented had *opportunities* been heeded during the course of where we are today. IMHO, undeniably, there had been numerous opportunities to change course.

But I do hope when this dust settles down, Ukraine will eventually rise and find itself in the best possible circumstances.

Yep, pawns of the evil CIA. The poor Russians just want to help their little brother and take care of them. What ingrates. 


BTW, I NEVER skip my morning coffee. 


And talking about emotions, keep thy in check. There's been a few posts that you seem to lose coolness.


Me? Well, when I see my wife crying and jittery fearing for her family, it bothers me.


As she says, the majority of the county has chosen their path. Why can't the Russians leave them alone? Of course, it's a rhetorical question. She has experienced the answer.


Remember Corazon Aquino, that nice little CIA lady?

[Muzh]

LMFAO


I'm listening to Vitaly Churkin addressing the UN security council and man, he sounds exactly like our cool and sexy dude. I wonder if Churkin has been receiving talking points from GQ.