Opinion Regarding Tiger Woods

[JohnDearGreen]

Dears, I wonder how is Tiger Woods related to the men who search Russian Woman?

I realize that he might be a big star in the U.S., but a number of people, especially in Russia, have no idea about what he is, not to say cannot tell a word about him and his relationships...

Lily,
There is one golf country club in Moscow.  I don't know of any more.  I read that someone built a driving range in Kyiv, but there are zero golf courses in Ukraine.   So there are probably about 200 guys in Moscow that might care, but the other millions and myself probably don't.  As Luda or someone said, if you take anything to extremes it becomes bad.  Tiger went over the edge with competitiveness, and other things.

I'm sure there are many married men that make trips to FSU looking for girlfriends, but I wouldn't say that they are similar to the Tiger ordeal.  Tiger might act more like some wealthy Russian married men.

[GQBlues]

That is not why he is no longer my favorite modern era golfer.

1.  Golf is a game of integrity and grace.  This concept extends beyond the ropes, and there he failed miserably.  

2.  Golf is a gentleman's game.  He is no gentleman.

As an avid golfer, one only has to wonder then how can Bobby Jones be held as the game's pinnacle of greatness. If I am not mistaken, when it was evident he was having a bad day at St Andrew's years ago, he took all his clubs and broke them then proceeded to finish his rounds like a careless rabid dog and completely lambasted the crowds and Directors of the tournament.

Yet, when Bobby Jones is spoken of today, he's revered as the sport's truest definition of a gentleman. When in fact, he had the fairway temper of a hungry wolf. Tiger, compared to him, is a helpless 6-week old puppy. That's a joke. Hogan was a womanizer. That's also a joke. Like Payne Stewart after them, these guys are held as gentlemen and heroes of this game. LOL.

Billy Payne likely knows what was good for Augusta. The players themselves are also privy to each other's temperament, grace, and camaraderie which none of us are privilege enough to witness or know. However, I know for a fact, based on player interviews and remarks, Phil Mickelson for some strange reason is hated more by his peers than Tiger.

Remember the time when he and Vijay Singh almost got into a fisticuff and their dislike of one another is still apparent even till now? Vijay just cannot be in the same room as Phil, and Vijay is as reserved as they come. They had one pairing since then and even Johnny Miller remarked how the tension was as thick as the Georgia summer humidity. Did you know about that?

Phil Mickelson is so dislike amongst his peers than they do Tiger. For what, who knows? One would easily think that these players see far more of these two than any of us here combined. Steve Stricker, Kenny Perry, Sean O'Hair, Jim Furyk, Anthony Kim, Luke Donald, Notah Begay, KJ Choi, David Duval, Hunter Mahan, heck even John Daly...etc. all publicly and readily admits to being friends with Tiger Woods. When was the last time you heard ANYONE said that about Phil Mickelson? Maybe that doesn't say anything about Phil as a person to anyone...but you know, it does to me.

Everytime and anywhere there's a tournament to play and players are practicing, how many times have you seen Phil practicing by himself? LOL. None, right? The guy has to have Bones, Harmon, Stockton, Peltz, and Leadbetter around him...maybe to get better, or maybe just to have ANYONE around him. LOL.

As for Tiger's remark with the media...well, that's the media. There was hardly a mention of Tiger actually spending 3 hours signing autographs leaving him with only an hour to practice before his rounds on Friday & Saturday. That's the media for you. Peter Usterhius, an English gentleman to boot, had to go out of his way during the post-round interview (in which questions are asked of players to assess their just concluded round) simply to ask Tiger what he thought of the plane that flew by that carried the banner sign: "Tiger: Is it Bootyism?" What was the point in that? Was that really an appropriate question at that juncture? Especially from an alleged gentleman? He used to be a PGA player of the game. Respected too.

As for his remark regarding his play, I agree with him. The media  (not the public) do in fact made a big deal of too many things, but such is life. You can hardly expect anyone, even Tiger, to walk with a pep when things are out of whack on a very important tournament, let alone a Major.

Remember Westwood's remark during the '08 Ryder Cup about the fans? Remember the story I told you about how he sandbagged his last putt at the Chevron Challenge last year to enable Graeme McDowell a chance to get into this year's Masters? That wasn't very sportsmanlike, is it? Yet you use him as somehow a beacon of courtesy and decency on this thread.

What about Sergio Garcia spitting inside the cup after retrieving the ball when he was having a bad day. Bubba Watson's profanity towards another player, etc...Don't even get me started with Colin Mongomerie / John Daly / Ian Woosnam / even John McEnroe...LOL.

When I think of folks like Michael Jordan, I think of his basketball dominating skills. Not the huge chip on his shoulders that went all the way back from his high school days. Those moments in his life that he wrestled with that he now confessed is what made him the player he is/was.

As for all the background on Tiger's personal life, likely a case damned if you do and damned if you don't. I would bet much of the decisions made during the past 5 tumultous months in his life and love were likely made by professional PR people and family.

As for me, I separate the person from the sport figure. I love Magic Johnson and what he brought to the game. It doesn't mean I supported his wonton disposition at every city's hotel they used to stay in that ultimately caused him to contract HIV. And yes, when I do watch David Letterman these days, I still find him pretty funny.

Outside of Tiger, I hope David Duval do find his game again. On the course, Tiger is still my man because of the shots like he did for his approach on the first day of this Masters at hole #9. No one, not even Phil at his greatest moment can manufacture that type of shot. Those types of creativity is why I will always be a Tiger Woods fan.

[Gator]

As an avid golfer, one only has to wonder then how can Bobby Jones be held as the game's pinnacle of greatness. If I am not mistaken, when it was evident he was having a bad day at St Andrew's years ago, he took all his clubs and broke them then proceeded to finish his rounds like a careless rabid dog and completely lambasted the crowds and Directors of the tournament.

You wrote a lot.  Being a Southerner and a golfer, the name Bobby Jones is dear to me so I will comment.  And the name Bobby Jones is very appropriate considering that he created and founded the Masters tournament, on the course he co-designed with Alister MacKenzie.

Yes, Bobby had anger management problems when young.  He had the nickname “club thrower.”  Regarding the St. Andrews incident, this is a handy reference.

www.viewsmagazine.com/img/articles/bobby_jones1.pdf

The story can be summarized as follows:  After a series of bad holes and taking five shots to reach the green at the Par 3 11th, Bobby Jones tore up his scorecard at St. Andrews in 1921, exclaiming his dislike for the course.  The local press wrote  "Master Bobby is just a boy, and an ordinary boy at that."

His worst anger display came at the 1922 US Open when he made a bad shot and threw his club, hitting a female spectator.  The USGA sanctioned him with expulsion. 

Bobby got over his anger and returned to win both the British Open and Amateur titles at the Old Course, setting a 4-day scoring record that stood for almost 30 years. 

It is said that Bobby mastered the game at age 12, but did not master himself until he was 21. Hence his expression,  “Golf is played on a 5-inch course, the space between the ears.”

The St. Andrews incident came when Bobby was 19, not 34 as is Tiger.  Did you know that Bobby retired from competition at the age of 28.  Maybe Tiger will change too and once again ingratiate if not endear himself.

The reverence for Bobby  was earned in so many ways.  For example, he was highly respected for his sportsmanship, as exemplified by a 1925 incident:

From Wiki,

Early in his amateur career, he was in the final playoff of the 1925 U.S. Open at the Worcester Country Club. During the match, his ball ended up in the rough just off the fairway, and as he was setting up to play his shot, his iron caused a slight movement of the ball. He immediately got angry with himself, turned to the marshals, and called a penalty on himself. The marshals discussed among themselves and questioned some of the gallery whether they had seen Jones's ball move. Their decision was that neither they nor anyone else had witnessed any incident, so the decision was left to Jones. Bobby Jones called the two-stroke penalty on himself, not knowing that he would lose the tournament by one stroke. When he was praised for his gesture, Jones replied, "You may as well praise a man for not robbing a bank."

[GQBlues]

Good for Bobby!

Yes, that act was certainly admirable to say the least. So much credit was given to Bobby Jones for that act even to this very day, and deservedly so. A gift that keeps on giving. The media still talk about that every chance they get. Funny that...not too many of them will waste the same bandwith to speak about a more recent acts of same and remind people who Mark Wilson and JP Hayes are. Their acts were no more than 2-3 years ago and their situations were no less significant than Jones'. Maybe the popularity isn't as significant? After all, what has Hayes and Wilson really done and really, who are they? The media, oh well...

As for hypocrisy, morality, decency, and second chances; yes its fitting this all happened at Augusta and once again, Tiger brought it all on.

Anyway, for now and this year, it's TPC, Pebble, St Andrew's, and Whistling Straits are left on tap. Fore!

[Gator]

Anyway, for now and this year, it's TPC, Pebble, St Andrew's, and Whistling Straits are left on tap. Fore!

Just like life - all of us have other opportunities in front of us.

And I believe your man Tiger (formerly my man) will eventually change to someone more affable.  And he will still win more majors, many more.

[Turboguy]

I have always had a lot of respect for Bobby Jones.   His anger management may not have been the best but he was never reported to throw his club in the same type of places Tiger did.   Otherwise most everyone feels he was a true gentleman who made a lot of contributions to golf and dealt with a lot of adversity in his personal life but persevered to do a lot of good with his life.   Actually my first woods had his name on them which made me a little more aware of him.

I have no doubts that Tiger will win a lot of tournaments in what is left of his golf career.  I don't think his earnings will ever recover totally but he will still have his fans and there will still be sponsors willing to give him big bucks.  I don't think his image will ever recover totally but many will forget all this in time.

As much as he impacts tv viewers I still think Arnie did more to popularize golf.  As good as Tiger is I think there were others who could have given him a run for his money in their hay day.  A lot of his popularity was based on the public perception of him which has changed.  Perhaps Kobe still sells a lot of shirts but did he ever have the clean cut image that fans unknowingly gave to Tiger?

[kievstar]

Tiger's earnings will be more than ever.  He is just getting into golf course building.  Drop the wife and he picks up 50%. More people pay attention to Tiger now than before.  He really should go with the bad guy image.

Tiger's health will determine if he wins anymore majors.  He is not in great health.  Reminds me of Nadal in tennis.  2 years ago I was telling people in Switzerland Nadal would be the man.  I was quickly told Nadal holds the racket wrong and swings to wildly which will lead to all kinds of injuries.  They were right.  I have heard the same thing about Tiger as his swing is not correct for his body type.  He has changed his swing a lot.  Go through the majors and you will find that Tiger usually wins because of his play on par 5's.  Once his distance goes he no longer has his advantage.  He set an alltime record at the masters for par 5 play but still lost by numerous strokes.  His body will not be able to handle him swinging like that.

I always like the underdog so will be rooting against him. 

Phil is not well liked since he would never hangout with the players and for past 15 years told everybody he would rather be with his wife and kids than players lounge.  Golf is a good old boy network and when Phil shuns the players you can see the resentment.   There are a lot of golfers banging women on the side.  Tiger is not the only one.  But Phil just did not want to be around people like that.  This was discussed on the Rome show yesterday. Mark O'meara is another womanizer not sure if he was / is married or not.  But Mark was the guy to take Tiger under his wing back in the 1990's when a famous golfer caused some issues with Tiger at the Masters back in the 1990's. 

But Tiger has made me more interested in watching the majors now.  In the long run Tiger's women will be good for golf.

[GQBlues]

 His anger management may not have been the best but he was never reported to throw his club in the same type of places Tiger did. 

..."But just prior to that, dissatisfied with his approach shot, Bobby (Jones) had thrown his club back toward his bag, lying on the ground near the gallery. The club glanced off the bag, bounced up, and hit a female spectator in the lower leg… Walker [USGA President] warned: "You will never play in a USGA event again unless you learn to control your temper."

It fascinates me to no end how our own personal biases can look at the same infraction in different shades of pale.

Otherwise most everyone feels he was a true gentleman *who made a lot of contributions to golf* and *dealt with a lot of adversity* in his personal life but persevered to do a lot of good with his life.

   

[Gator]

GQ,

It is okay to still like Tiger.  That is your prerogative.  You are not alone. 

However, please don't defend Tiger by saying he is no worse than the next golfer. 

I expect Tiger's PR consultants will use the Masters as a learning experience for him.  He will be better at Sawgrass.

Regarding Phil and whether he is liked by his fellow golfers, Kievstar is correct in that Phil would rather spend his time with his wife.  I respect his family values and his diplomacy, even if he is perhaps an insincere sycophant.  One radio commentator referred to him as the Eddie Haskell of golf.   

Will I root for Phil?   Yes, if battling Tiger.  No, if battling Freddie, Ernie, Retief, Kenny and a few others.


Turbo,

Bobby Jones was just 20 years old when the GQ quoted incident occurred.  He quickly learned to control his temper.  Part of growing up, becoming a better man.

[GQBlues]

FWIW-

Gator-

Huge difference between liking someone and being a fan of an athlete's talent and skills. I thought I made those separation clear in my earlier posts. I do not know Tiger Woods, the person, on any personal level to determine if I like him as a person or not.

I highly doubt kievstar knows Phil Mickelson, or yourself, well enough to make such a definitive statement as to why Phil is disliked by his peers. To say the reason for that is because he doesn't want to hang out with the boys because he's married is pure speculation, and is insulting the likes of Kenny Perry, Stricker, Furyk, et all. Unless he has facts to back up what he stated, as well as you, then please indulge me.

Sports Illustrated conducted a poll back in 2007 from the PGA players themselves on who they would rate as most favorite and least favorite playing partner -  regardless of marriage status, LOL. Here's the result. You can guess placements.

"...In the most-popular playing partner poll, Phil Mickelson didn't receive a single vote. In the least-popular playing partner poll, Tiger Woods didn't receive a single vote...."

A year before that, here's the 2006 GQ Magazine list of 10 Most Hated Athletes.

I am not a Phil fan although I'm happy for him when he wins for no other reason than he's from SoCal.

As for age/temper, the discussion was about outbursts and tempers, and not age. To submit Bobby Jones' age as an excuse for his outburst and temper hardly makes a reasoned point.

[Gator]

GQ,

The information your provided is amusing.  Yes, Rory should be recognized as the worst.

These reports confirm what I heard yesterday from a sports commentator and wrote earlier- Phil is the Eddie Haskell of golf.     Phil still is a devoted family man, and that was the stark contrast with Tiger, other than 'whooping' him.

If this is about who is the better golfer, I agree that Tiger is indeed a better golfer than Phil.  So if you are a fan of Tiger simply because of his ball striking skills, why not be a fan of the man Sam Snead called the "The greatest striker of the ball."  That man would be Moe Norman (a real life 'Tin Cup' or 'Baggar Vance' type of character).  So there is more than just pure talent.

As for age/temper, the discussion was about outbursts and tempers, and not age. To submit Bobby Jones' age as an excuse for his outburst and temper hardly makes a reasoned point.

I agree, age is not an excuse for a disturbing act.  Will you accept it as a reason for an immature act?  The point is that the man whose reputation you questioned did indeed behave like a brat, yet he quickly improved to master his emotions and excel at sportsmanship.   

Tiger is 14 years older now than when Bobby  threw that club.   And Tiger has been coached since his infancy for this place in history.  He seems to be pissing it away.

An integral part of golf is its intriguing history.  Please be careful of an icon such as Bobby Jones.  I don't know if you have time to read in depth; if not, rent a copy of "Stroke of Genius."

And if you search for a true gentleman of the game, I suggest Byron Nelson.

Have you yet made a pilgrimage to Scotland?  I have done two trips to Ireland, and they were a joy.  I once played in the Member-Guest at Ballybunion.  The Irish taught me a lot about the essence of the game.  Had too many pints, tapped some strange (divorce was pending), and somewhere have a photo of me buggering the life-size statue of Bill Clinton that stands in front of the police station.  The Ballybunion people had little nice to say about Bill because he cheated at golf.  Imagine that.

[Gator]

Perfect timing by SNL

http://www.hulu.com/watch/141555/saturday-night-live-masters

[GQBlues]

Slammin' Sammy was well ahead of my time. Prior to Tiger, Freddie was the man for me, still is. As Johnny Miller eloquently described his swing ""

But Tiger reinforced my appreciation of his skills last weekend when he made look so easy. Under the conditions he was in, plus the wind, to birdie that hole was just absolutely incredible. He literally swung at 10 o'clock and hook it to 5 o'clock right at the teeth of that wind, and land that ball 6 feet from the pin for a birdie. Absolutely phenomenal!

I'll make it to Pebble Beach this year as long as I meet wifey's condition that we can go only if we stayed at Ragged Point Inn, an incredibly romantic hideaway along the coast south of Big Sur. I may even manage to get a photo with Tiger hopefully holding the trophy National once again.

You should try to make it........

[Gator]

I may even manage to get a photo with Tiger hopefully holding the trophy National once again.

Las Vegas bookmakers will have Tiger the heavy favorite to win.  Did he not set the US Open scoring record at Pebble years ago?

[kievstar]

I listen to Jim Rome most days and the information about Phil came from his show and golf analysts.  I tend to think there right on about Phil.  Jim Rome is the #1 sports radio show in USA after 10 am and he has the top golf analysts on all the time.   You can listen to old tapes of the Rome show on his website. Rome is a Cali boy as well.  Surprised you do not listen.  When it comes to sports I will debate that more than RW topics.  I spend maybe 15 minutes a day here maximum and the other board but more than 3 hours on sports forums a day.

I have actually met Phil since he is a big sponsor of my former company - KPMG.  I have met Tiger before too and not impressed. I would rather hangout with John Daly but do not know him.  Hard to invite John to executive seminars for speaking.

Tiger's favorite course is Pebble.  He should win it easily if healthy. 3 of the 4 majors are on Tiger's favorite courses this year.

[GQBlues]

Las Vegas bookmakers will have Tiger the heavy favorite to win.  Did he not set the US Open scoring record at Pebble years ago?

He won by 15 shots. It would've been more had he not miss a 6 footer and a 5 footer on that weekend's Saturday. I think he only managed a 1-under 71 or something like that...If he wins at least 3 times more at Augusta, he'll own just about every record at the course.

Anyway, it's announced today that the divorce is finally getting wrapped up. Apparently had been in the works for sometime now. Gives another perspective to Tiger's woes over the weekend.

I think this is the best thing for Elin under the circumstances. Maybe Tiger too. I can't comment on the kids.

Before Tiger got married, I used to remember watching him practice by himself after each and every round until sundown. Then always be the first ones out on the practice facilities in the morning before teeing out. Since he got married, he never did that as much as he did before. Maybe now the divorce will get him back to just being Tiger. Get Nicklaus' Major record, win at the Riviera at least once (he never won at the Riviera even back in his hgh school days IIRC), and then just wrap all these up and call it a career.

btw Gator- I just now saw the photo you posted. That's a great pic, but.....graphite shaft?  

[GQBlues]

I listen to Jim Rome most days and the information about Phil came from his show and golf analysts.  I tend to think there right on about Phil.  Jim Rome is the #1 sports radio show in USA after 10 am and he has the top golf analysts on all the time.   You can listen to old tapes of the Rome show on his website. Rome is a Cali boy as well.  Surprised you do not listen.  When it comes to sports I will debate that more than RW topics.  I spend maybe 15 minutes a day here maximum and the other board but more than 3 hours on sports forums a day.

Kievstar-

Rome's cool. I used to listen to him too when I used to commute to work, but he got more tiring to me than Mark & Brian. You have to remember, Rome's not anymore privileged to info despite having a full staff of analysts and feeders than Howard Stern. That excert from the link I posted basically explains what I'm trying to say...

Last August at the PGA Championship at Baltusrol, in New Jersey, a reporter turned to a golfer on the tour and said of Phil Mickelson, “Man, the fans here love Phil.” The golfer replied, “They don’t know him the way we do.” It blew our minds a little when we heard this, since Mickelson ranks among the most admired golfers in America. But today the same reporter makes his case bluntly: “Phil Mickelson literally has no friends out there. He annoys everybody.”

I doubt Jim Rome and his staff have full knowlege of Phil's personality as much as the PGA players who share clubhouse lockers with these guys.

This whole public persona thing, as you know, can be misleading. John Edwards went on public TV to deny his affair and gave out a sob story how it pains him to worry about his breast-cancer stricken wife, who urged him to campaign for the preliminary while she underwent therapy. Then embarked on his campaign trails with his assistant. People voted for this man believing he's such a caring, loving family man. The rest, as we all know now, is history.

[Gator]

btw Gator- I just now saw the photo you posted. That's a great pic, but.....graphite shaft?  

You got me.    

10 years ago I had a much faster swing and enjoyed hitting the ball far (7 iron went 170).  Now, I have rifle shafts and I swing with more control (7 iron goes 150) and my handicap has dropped to a 10.

Considering my advanced age, I am contemplating whether to switch to R-flex graphite on G-15 Ping irons.  Not yet, however.

I think this is the best thing for Elin under the circumstances. Maybe Tiger too. I can't comment on the kids.

Kids always suffer the most, especially if she moves them to Sweden.  That will be a highly contested point in the divorce if there is a divorce. 

Tiger was not ready to be married and drive his kids to Krispy Kreme wearing THE GREEN JACKET.  [Phil, the eyeglasses and doughnuts make you look like a geek.]

 http://chronicle.augusta.com/news/metro/2010-04-13/mickelson-orders-treats-excites-staff?v=1271209348

[Gator]

I would rather hangout with John Daly but do not know him.  Hard to invite John to executive seminars for speaking.

Yes, that would be absurd unless it was a NASCAR convention or a fried chicken restaurateur's' convention. 

John Daly is Joe Sixpack's favorite player.  What a waste of special talent.  A bigger downfall than what Tiger is enduring.  Alcohol abuse.  :evil:  Hope he can get back on track while he still is at a playable age.

[GQBlues]

Considering my advanced age, I am contemplating whether to switch to R-flex graphite on G-15 Ping irons.  Not yet, however.

Distance for the sake of accuracy? Why not just club-up? But what do I know. I'm just now finding out about the benefits and science behind all these MOI flex ratings.

Tiger was not ready to be married and drive his kids to Krispy Kreme wearing THE GREEN JACKET.  [Phil, the eyeglasses and doughnuts make you look like a geek.]

LOL. 2 statements made that I thought was hilarious:

Mickelson ordered a dozen each of glazed, chocolate and mixed donuts, she said.

Of course, Like a good father, he restricted his kids to one each so 9 for himself. Sacrificially and likely the chocolate ones.

"I thought it was Fuzzy (Zoeller) coming back through,"

LOL!!!! I'm surprise Craig Stadler didn't make the list. Here's the proverbial list of the fattest PGA players. Phil unfortunately didn't rate in the top-10 this time. He made the 13th. Could be that Krispy Kreme wasn't yet franchised when the poll was taken.

I played with Duffy Waldorf before along with my ex-employer. His Dad was our corporate lawyer and I got snagged to fill in their 4-some. Of course, my game back then was criminal. Made Duffy chuckle a couple of times though.

[GQBlues]

Whowoudathunkit!

Just because Tiger committed to Quail Hollow yesterday doesn't mean Gator's new man had to commit today, too 

[Gator]

Whowoudathunkit!

Just because Tiger committed to Quail Hollow yesterday doesn't mean Gator's new man had to commit today, too 

Yeah, my "new man" Phil is feeling his oats.  Tiger may set him back a peg.  However, if Phil beats him again...... :zappedhim:  It would be splendid for golf if such a rivalry developed.  Before Tiger's sex revelations, he had no rival.

Regarding weight, wasn't Phil at one time referred to as Phil Nippleson because part of his extra weight was not very masculine. 


As a 13-yo kid in Charlotte, I would take my 16-ga shotgun and hunt quail in the fields and woods of what became Quail Hollow decades later.  Had no bird dog - just walked around and flushed them.  That required some quick reflexes.

[GQBlues]

Regarding weight, wasn't Phil at one time referred to as Phil Nippleson because part of his extra weight was not very masculine. 

I thought it was 'Tits' Mickelson? Borne out of Stevie's story of a fan yelling from the gallery as Phil and Bones walked by during a tournament, "Hey Phil! Nice 'tits', man!"

Actually, it always make for a great show anytime the top-10 players play.

[GQBlues]

Phil 'snowman to halve the hole' Mickelson is utterly useless....

#!%#! Europe. Cheaters!   Go U-S-A!!

[tfcrew]

How far they fall...

http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/golf-devil-ball-golf/tiger-woods-melts-down-spectacular-fashion-pebble-beach-001223966.html