Is my Russian wife cheating on me or am I overreacting?

[Boethius]

The underlying cause of about 90% of divorces in Ukraine was, and remains, substance abuse.  Not because of one party's "unhappiness" or "unfulfillment".  It is a very different mindset.

Misha, I said it was when he first arrived here and that things have changed in ten years.  But, the bottom line is it is many here expressed the same attitude. 

[kievstar]

Boethius, I will have to disagree as I have lived in Ukraine in past 5 years  and most of the divorces were due to jealous husbands, financial issues, marrying to young, drinking, and cheating husbands / wives.  Drinking is not the leading cause nor is husbands not wanting to take care of children.  May have been 10 years ago but Ukraine is very different today than it was in 2004 (pre Orange Revolution) and especially 10 years ago.  Now your social circle maybe higher level as you do perform legal work in Ukraine and maybe your focused on the rich Ukraine men who have women who are very dependent on them. 

There is a very good article on divorces in Ukraine which I will try to find again.  They examined more than 10,000 recent divorces and cause of it.   

Here is a recent stat on divorces being about 50% of marriages.  And many marriages are never legalized in Ukraine and majority of these marriages end to without being tracked.  A trick of someone with money or wanting a short-term marriage that will never be recorded. 

http://www.kyivpost.com/nation/40100

[BillyB]

The underlying cause of about 90% of divorces in Ukraine was, and remains, substance abuse.  Not because of one party's "unhappiness" or "unfulfillment".  It is a very different mindset.

Substance abuse usually happens because of unhappiness or lack of fulfillment in one's life. If the man is a drunk before marriage, a woman shouldn't be marrying him.

I've heard it before and RM would probably tell us that their wives drove them to drink. I've met a few laid back easy going RM in the States and their wives are controlling, grumpy, and gossip machines.

Lots of men don't go home to their wives who nag and prefer to spend their time with the boys at night.

[Misha]

The underlying cause of about 90% of divorces in Ukraine was, and remains, substance abuse.  Not because of one party's "unhappiness" or "unfulfillment".  It is a very different mindset.

Or perhaps substance abuse was the most convenient reason as it would automatically elicit sympathy  :evil:

[mies]

Broethius, you realize your speaking for every woman and man in Ukraine 10 years ago?

Would a woman only divorce her husband if he was drinking? What about if he beat up the family, mental abuse, lazy and don't work and committing adultery? Is drunkenness to blame for all that? Maybe the husband is just a deadbeat and being drunk, lazy and abusive is just part of his character?

Why would divorce only occur when only he is drinking? Why is women the only ones divorcing? Do men divorce their wife if she does something bad or neglects the family and is useless or does he continue to feed her?

BillyB, regarding Ukrainian culture, Broethius is 100% right, and you are wrong. Your "what if" just does not work in Ukrainian culture. Ukrainian and Russian women are particularly known for their inclination to tolerate any bad habits or inappropriate behavior from their husbands, only to have "trousers at home" or "father for children". Only during the last 10-15 years the attitude is somewhat changing. Plus - many divorces that you quote as statistics aren't initiated by women - they are initiated by men, and not because their wives were cheating, but because men had affairs and wanted to change the woman in the house. Or at least this is my impression. Up until my 20yo age, there were only three families in my social circle that were divorcees. Just think of it - 3 families - from hundreds of my schoolmates, another hundreds of neighbors, tens of my parents' colleagues and acquaintances, all the people i've encountered in daily life - doctors, nurses, etc etc etc. Moreover, among all those people there were total zero of women who had a child without official father, born not in marriage.

Regarding your comment about "grumpy and controlling wives" and "nice RM husbands" who have to drink because their wives make home stay intolerable - this is the very typical self-soothing of drinking men. I start wondering if you possibly also have issues with drinking. Any specialist dealing with unhealthy families - with drinking man and co-dependent wife will tell you that drunkars always pity themselves trying to solicit pity from people around. And the only way to "save" the alcoholic - is to stop pitying him. The common mistakes of wives is that they are grumpy when husband "comes home on ears" (literally translating from Russian), but next day they start pitying him.

Here is an example of a grumpy russian wife exercising her control of her nice husband:

"Не пущу" Vladimir Yegorovich Makovsky, oil on canvas, 1892.

[BillyB]

Ukrainian and Russian women are particularly known for their inclination to tolerate any bad habits or inappropriate behavior from their husbands, only to have "trousers at home" or "father for children". Only during the last 10-15 years the attitude is somewhat changing.

A couple years ago, Ukraine and Russia had a 65%-67% divorce rate in their country. If you look at todays statistics, they have a 40%-43% divorce rate. If todays numbers are true then you and Broethius are incorrect that marriages in the past stuck together better. The new generation of women values marriage and probably tolerates bad behavior from men better than the old fashion ladies thus the divorce rate is declining fast. Check your government's statistics. They don't lie...or do they.

I don't believe the divorce rate can drop 20%+ in 2 years. I think the Ukrainian and Russian government is putting out wrong info so that people can feel good about getting married again in their country. Their population is declining after all and that's not good for any nation.

The old 65%-67% divorce rate is more believable and it contradicts what you are saying that RW/UW tolerate bad behavior. Many RW and UW will drop you in a second if she doesn't like something about you.

[groovlstk]

When my husband first came here, I took him on a trip through the Western provinces and down into several US states, where I have family.  He had an opportunity to meet a lot of people, as I had family or acquaintances in most of the places we visited.  One of the things he commented on was that Canada and the U.S. are "throw away" societies.  He meant relationships.  The ease with which couples, particularly those with children, divorced and found new partners was shocking to him.  This was rare in the FSU, unless one party was drinking.  It has become more common, as has adultery, but it certainly is still not the norm.

This is certainly true, and in the past I've seen quite a few bedraggled men arrive here complaining that the "throwaway society" mentality in the West is one of the reasons they are looking for a wife in Russia or Ukraine.

But is it really a bad thing? Or just the lesser of two evils? I grew up in a big, very conservative Roman Catholic family, and 30 years ago divorce was a huge stigma and many couples stayed together long after any benefits for themselves and/or children had passed. Domestic violence was tolerated as long as there were no serious injuries, and the despair of a living in a loveless marriage was attributed to God's will.  

[mies]

The new generation of women values marriage and probably tolerates bad behavior from men better than the old fashion ladies thus the divorce rate is declining fast.

Billy, what always amuses me is the arrogance of foreigners who know little about the matter, yet try to prove me that I know nothing about my country. Please, feel free to continue.

1990 d(3.7/1000) m(9.3/1000)
1999 d(3.5/1000) m(6.9/1000)
2008 d(3.6/1000) m(7.0/1000)

1) where do you see a decline of divorce rate vs. marriage rate?
2) where do you see 70% divorce rate?
Source:

http://stat6.stat.lviv.ua/PXWEB2007/Dialog/varval.asp?ma=000_0311&ti=0311%2E+%CA%B3%EB%FC%EA%
B3%F1%F2%FC+%E7%E0%F0%E5%BA%F1%F2%F0%
EE%E2%E0%ED%E8%F5+%F8%EB%FE%E1%B3%E2
+%F2%E0+%F0%EE%E7%EB%F3%F7%E5%ED%FC&path
=../Database/POPULATION/1/03/&lang=1

it would be helpful if you quote your sources too.

[Misha]

Up until my 20yo age, there were only three families in my social circle that were divorcees.

In the small Catholic town where I was growing up divorce was nonexistant. There were ZERO divorces in my social circle twenty years ago. What does this say? Well, I know that growing up women had few choices. Few of my friends' mothers worked. Even if they had left their husbands, there was not really anywhere for them to go. In other words, many tolerated less than perfect marriages. Is this is a good thing? I would say that the results were mixed. Some probably were better off staying together, some should have divorced decades ago.

Let's keep in mind that in Soviet times it was quite difficult to get an apartment and there was a lot of social pressure to keep married. If a woman chose to leave her husband, where would she go? Or where would the husband go? They couldn't exactly sell their apartment and buy a new one could they  :evil: In other words, the social pressures and economic forces keeping couples together in Soviet times would have been similar to those keeping husbands and wives together in my small rural village.

[mies]

In the small Catholic town where I was growing up divorce was nonexistant. There were ZERO divorces in my social circle twenty years ago. What does this say? Well, I know that growing up women had few choices. Few of my friends' mothers worked. Even if they had left their husbands, there was not really anywhere for them to go. In other words, many tolerated less than perfect marriages. Is this is a good thing? I would say that the results were mixed. Some probably were better off staying together, some should have divorced decades ago.

Let's keep in mind that in Soviet times it was quite difficult to get an apartment and there was a lot of social pressure to keep married. If a woman chose to leave her husband, where would she go? Or where would the husband go? They couldn't exactly sell their apartment and buy a new one could they  :evil: In other words, the social pressures and economic forces keeping couples together in Soviet times would have been similar to those keeping husbands and wives together in my small rural village.

is 300'000 a small town? Would it help if I say that part of our family lives in Kyiv, and same situation with divorces and marriages can be observed in their social circle as well?

I completely agree with your remark about "nowhere to go to" reason. Though I do not agree with the "social pressure" argument. If a family lives in crumpled apartment, three generations together - will parents look favorably on the idea of bringing a young husband or wife into the house, and invite a fourth generation in? 

[Misha]

is 300'000 a small town? Would it help if I say that part of our family lives in Kyiv, and same situation with divorces and marriages can be observed in their social circle as well?

And? Your point being? Anecdotal evidence from 20 years ago is anecdotal evidence. If I would have visited thousands of small towns across Canada, I would have observed the same phenomenon.

I completely agree with your remark about "nowhere to go to" reason. Though I do not agree with the "social pressure" argument. If a family lives in crumpled apartment, three generations together - will parents look favorably on the idea of bringing a young husband or wife into the house, and invite a fourth generation in? 

Exactly. And, there are many cases where wives in Russia will tolerate much more than they want because of problems with housing. Let's say the couple lives in an apartment that belongs to the husband's parents. If she divorces him, what does she get? Not much. Sure, she might be able to sue, but if he has more money and better connections, her odds would be far from good  :evil:

[BC]

Billy, what always amuses me is the arrogance of foreigners who know little about the matter, yet try to prove me that I know nothing about my country. Please, feel free to continue.

It's more than just that mies.. Here a bunch of primarily divorced guys (myself included) trying to define what causes FSU divorces. Is kind of silly IMHO.

[Misha]

It's more than just that mies.. Here a bunch of primarily divorced guys (myself included) trying to define what causes FSU divorces. Is kind of silly IMHO.

Feel free then to read this article: http://www.svobodanews.ru/content/transcript/1741154.html

An excerpt:

Ирина Лагунина: Статистика разводов в России растет. В среднем на 10 браков приходится в последнее время от 8 до 6 разводов. В списке основных причин - алкоголизм или наркомания (51%), отсутствие жилища (41%) и средств к существованию (29%), вмешательство в дела семьи тещи и зятя (18%), невозможность иметь детей (10%). Любопытно, что неверность в списке причин разводов в России практически не фигурирует, то есть это как бы не повод для развода. Впрочем, статистика разводов в России упоминается часто, но что такое развод вблизи, крупным планом, об этом говорится реже. Между тем, это не лишено интереса - развод по-русски, тем более что в России отношение к браку и, соответственно, к разводу, пока остается в большой степени патриархальным. Над темой работала Татьяна Вольтская.

Some highlights:

• In recent years in Russia, for every 10 marriages, there were 6 to 8 divorces. These statistics, of course, would not include those who lived together and then separated with getting divorced (with or without children)
• The main causes listed for divorce: alcohol/drug abuse (51%); lack of housing (41%); not enough to survive (aka lack of money) (29%); interference of mother or father-in-law (18%) and inability to have children (10%).

Sure, infidelity and incompatibility don't really factor in, but this might be an indicator of the greater financial stresses that most Russian couples have to endure.

[mies]

Let's say the couple lives in an apartment that belongs to the husband's parents. If she divorces him, what does she get? Not much. Sure, she might be able to sue, but if he has more money and better connections, her odds would be far from good  :evil:

not exactly. There exist a social/state institute of "прописка". If the person has it in a specific dwelling (even if the dwelling belongs to parents) this individual can't be just "thrown away" at the streets. For example, my parent's apartment belongs to my parents, however while i was on the documents as "assigned" to this apartment - they could not sell the apartment without my approval. Also, many families were getting "apartment upgrade" after they had new people joining the household. For example - some families would take their remote lonely relatives from villages and "assign" them to the apartment, then if the amount of sq meters per household member was less than standard - the family qualified for upgrade. Same idea with the quantity of children. If there were 2-3 children in the family - family/parents were getting bigger apartment, and thus - their children had a right (of ownership) over the portion of this apartment. Hence - after divorce women with kids could sue with the ex's parents and ex, and get their portion of the apartment. Then they were "exchanging the apartment" - one 3 bedroom apartment for 2 apartments 1-bedroom each.
I am not a lawyer, and law is my weakest side, so I will not be able to quote any civil code articles. But if you are interested - i'm sure you can find all the documents/laws/codes online.

And? Your point being? Anecdotal evidence from 20 years ago is anecdotal evidence. If I would have visited thousands of small towns across Canada, I would have observed the same phenomenon.

my point is not an anecdotal evidence. My town isn't really small, Kyiv (which is the second example i used) - is the capital of Ukraine and one of 5 biggest cities in the country.

[BillyB]

Billy, what always amuses me is the arrogance of foreigners who know little about the matter, yet try to prove me that I know nothing about my country. Please, feel free to continue.

1990 d(3.7/1000) m(9.3/1000)
1999 d(3.5/1000) m(6.9/1000)
2008 d(3.6/1000) m(7.0/1000)

1) where do you see a decline of divorce rate vs. marriage rate?
2) where do you see 70% divorce rate?
it would be helpful if you quote your sources too.

Mies, the numbers are only as accurate as what the government wants to provide. They can alter the numbers if they want to better reflect on their country. I can't read your chart but here's a link to some numbers from 2005. At the time Russia had around 60% divorce rate. The numbers used in this study weren't guessed, they were obtained from countries who submitted their "facts" to the United Nations. This forum has gone over divorce numbers many times with many links available.

http://encarta.msn.com/media_701500518/marriage_and_divorce_rates.html

It's more than just that mies.. Here a bunch of primarily divorced guys (myself included) trying to define what causes FSU divorces. Is kind of silly IMHO.

Don't be bias. What about the divorced women going over what causes divorces? You don't think what I said causes FSU divorces is valid or do you too believe alcohol is solely to blame? What does being divorce have to do with quoting sources and what we hear from RM? Do you prefer to hear about divorce from guys who's never been married or married guys who never been divorced?

I've seen quite a few bedraggled men arrive here complaining that the "throwaway society" mentality in the West is one of the reasons they are looking for a wife in Russia or Ukraine.
 

They've read too much agency hype and didn't do their homework. If staying married is their #1 goal, they need to focus on a Muslim woman or look in India which has divorce rates in the single digit.

[Gator]

Is there an intrinsic difference in the causes for divorce in the FSU and the West?  I don't know; I am just asking.


 

• The main causes listed for divorce: alcohol/drug abuse (51%); lack of housing (41%); not enough to survive (aka lack of money) (29%); interference of mother or father-in-law (18%) and inability to have children (10%).

Sure, infidelity and incompatibility don't really factor in, but this might be an indicator of the greater financial stresses that most Russian couples have to endure.

In America the leading cause is "irreconcilable differences."  This is a "no-fault term" substituted for almost every cause to avoid lengthy court battles.  Divorce attorneys have reported causes as:

In most general terms, the causes of divorce (and arguably the cause of any relationship dissolution) involve a breakdown or lack of communication, compromise, and/or commitment. Family legal experts cite the following factors as major causes of divorce: poor communication, financial problems, lack of commitment, dramatic changes in priorities, and infidelity. Causes of divorce may also include physical, mental or emotional abuse, substance abuse, lack of conflict resolution skills, unmet needs, failed expectations, and significant discrepancies in parenting.

Source:  http://www.onlinelawyersource.com/divorce/family-law/children/index.html

AW frequently explained their divorce as, "We just grew apart".  In my years of dating RW, not one RW ever explained her divorce in terms such as "We just grew apart."[/list]

[mies]

Mies, the numbers are only as accurate as what the government wants to provide.

sure, the "method of scientific poke" or as we say in Russian метод научного тыка combined with iterated urban tales and forum gossips - give much more accurate numbers than official state statistics (which - meaning official state statistics, - by the way, cannot be different from what is submitted by the state to UN).

Billy, did you at least try to look on what link are you giving me???
Ukraine      marriage rate N/A     divorce rate 3.90

How do you presume the divorce rate in % vs. marriage rate from this 2005 data? How do you infer a trendline? I am nearly speechless.

[BillyB]

Billy, did you at least try to look on what link are you giving me???
Ukraine      marriage rate N/A     divorce rate 3.90

How do you presume the divorce rate from this 2005 data? How do you infer a trendline? I am nearly speechless.

I didn't supply the numbers for Ukraine on that UN study and the study does not give % of divorce unlike other studies. That's one of many studies that can be found on the internet.

 For the second time I'll say there are links that have been supplied numerous times in the past on this forum that showed FSU countries, except Muslim ones, that are or that are near top on the charts for divorce based off the number those countries provided. 67% for Russia and 65% for Ukraine was the highest % I've seen for those 2 countries at one time. The last few years the divorce rate for Ukraine and Russia took a nose dive into the low 40's. That can be googled.

[Misha]

In my years of dating RW, not one RW ever explained her divorce in terms such as "We just grew apart."[/list]

When the economy improves significantly in Russia and women have the same economic opportunities as men, you will see many more Russian women getting divorced and saying that they "just grew apart" IMHO. Then again, when that happens, you won't have many RW dating WM  :evil:

[mies]

I didn't supply the numbers for Ukraine on that UN study and the study does not give % of divorce unlike other studies. That's one of many studies that can be found on the internet.

 For the second time I'll say there are links that have been supplied numerous times in the past on this forum that showed FSU countries, except Muslim ones, that are or that are near top on the charts for divorce based off the number those countries provided. 67% for Russia and 65% for Ukraine was the highest % I've seen for those 2 countries at one time. The last few years the divorce rate for Ukraine and Russia took a nose dive into the low 40's. That can be googled.

give me one reason to go through the "previously supplied numerous forum posts" while I can check official statistics much faster, and this data will be much more reliable? 65% for which year? What is 65%?

Let's say: for the year 2005
marriages: 7.1/1000 of population
divorces: 3.9/1000 of population
3.9/7.1*100= 54.9%

for 1999 and 2008 - the rate is about 50%.
for 1990: 3.7/9.3*100=39.8%

still no sign of 65%  

speaking of source reliability - I bumped today at the article which says that an infant was born in Russia who can talk minutes after delivery, and his first word was "papa"- right after infant opened eyes 

[BC]

Since statistics have absolutely no bearing on individuals, why even discuss it?

All I know is that

1. We got married
2. We may stay together until death do us part or we may part before that time.

As it regards WM/FSUW marriages, there may be different factors that either keep the marriage going i.e. WM too old to shop around so wants to keep her or that contribute to divorce i.e. just did not know each other well enough.

Italy makes a good example that there can be different factors involved in each country, even within the country:

Marital break-ups and separations were commoner in the more industrialised and richer north against the poorer south.

There were 6.2 separations and four divorces for every 1,000 marriages in the north in 2005, against 4.2 separations and 1.8 divorces in the south.

http://www.bio-medicine.org/medicine-news/Italys-Divorce-Rate-Jumps-74-Percent-in-10-Years-22404-1/

One could say that maybe it is because of economics, poor tend to stick together.. or maybe because couples down here tend to date for very long periods of time.. basically waiting until they have a house to live in?  Who knows..

What's this thread all about anyway? 

[BillyB]

still no sign of 65%  

Do you make your husband do all the work too? The things us men do have to do for women.   Here are a few links. Read about the abortion study in the last link. Contemplate the numbers next time you think about "throw away" society.

http://www.divorce.com/article/divorce-statistics

http://www.infoplease.com/world/statistics/international-divorce-rates.html

http://nodivorce.us/fvi.php

[BC]

Do you make your husband do all the work too? The things us men do have to do for women.   Here are a few links. Read about the abortion study in the last link. Contemplate the numbers next time you think about "throw away" society.

http://www.divorce.com/article/divorce-statistics

http://www.infoplease.com/world/statistics/international-divorce-rates.html

http://nodivorce.us/fvi.php

1995/1996 data.. wonder how relevant today.

Some more sources..

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/peo_div_rat-people-divorce-rate

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/hea_abo_percap-health-abortions-per-capita

Don't forget abortion data talks about 'legal abortions'...  wonder why.. comparing legal abortions in the US and RU may well be comparing apples and oranges, who knows.  Where does a US girl in trouble go?

I always thought it might be because abortion costs less in RU than birth control.

Why is Canada's abortion rate half that of US?

Fun part about statistics and the internet is you will always be able to find the data you want to see..

[Gator]

What's this thread all about anyway? 

Another example why people should not marry unless they want to have kids.   :evil:

Oooops! The OP and his wife have a 1-yo baby.

Oooops Again!  Psychiatrists assert that humans are hardwired to live as couples.

[BillyB]

1995/1996 data.. wonder how relevant today.

Some more sources..

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/peo_div_rat-people-divorce-rate

Didn't someone just say "what's this thread all about anyway?"

That link isn't a good indication of how many divorces are happening per marriages. I could easily say Americans value marriage and love each other enough to enter marriage more than other nationalities because we're doing it more often.

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/peo_mar_rat-people-marriage-rate

% of divorces/marriage is a better indicator of what's happening. With more marriages happening in America, there is an increase for divorce. Some people aren't marriage material such as those who want the single life, the mentally retarded, the bad, and the stupid. Life is tough but it's tougher if you're stupid. Same within marriage.

The links I provided were only to show Mies some numbers in the 60's%. I didn't care to link divorce statistics from every year or the current year. I know current divorce rate in Ukraine and Russia is 40% and 43%. I don't believe it dropped 20% in 2 years but it is what it is. The agencies can jump on this new fact and sell the idea FSU women are more likely to stay with you thick and thin. I agree, one must take a look at each person as an individual.