Did I Screw Up?

[msmob]

Hooray! Mobe finally admits that a lot of poor Russians and Ukrainians actually exist and they are the bulk of the population. Giving lie of course to the notion put around by some on here that their financial circumstances of day to day Russian & Ukrainian people are much the same as ours.

Trench,

You are already firmly in the RWD camp of posters who cannot remember what they have posted - let alone what *I* have posted, before ..

Your 'mistake' is thinking you can tip up in UA / RU and seem like a wallet to be tapped and an upgrade ..

Many Russians / Ukrainians own their own apartments and have a Dacha  - they have a roof over their heads .. 

'Carry on'

[Boethius]

I've been thinking more about what I said SF and I'm thinking that chances are you stood outside the shops as you felt a 'request' would be coming and in all honesty it probably was and would have happen whether you were in the shop or not. I still think it was a mistake standing outside as it would have personafied the distrust and her respect for you slide.

Him not going into the store is irrelevant.  Most FSUM don't go shoe shopping with their girlfriends/wives.

I have heard that a woman requesting stuff is part of dating gameplay over there (from a Russian lady member of this forum). Now I know also that some FSW will give a guy sex in return for a good meal out as a form of returning the favour. It could well be having thought about it that some women take this on a vice versa basis. That if a guy wants sex then he should be prepared to return the favour in terms of buying her stuff, giving her money, etc. Not necessary a fixed deal or set amount, just a kind of unspoken code, i.e so it does not sound like it is an unsavoury escort type of relationship/deal.

These are not common in Ukraine, only among a certain subset of individuals. 

In any case I think the pushing for sex early on could have been the biggest mistake followed by giving into her demands. Even if it is part of dating gameplay a good negotiator will always hold out and give little away. I think that you gave away such big sums of money (for her at least) has probably made her lose all respect for you and the relationship is a non-runner in the long term. I would say take the experience of all of this and get out there and fish again.

Relationships are not a zero sum game.

This post was composed without the aid of google.

[HoundDaddyLee]

Well, in that case, nice to see you banging your head in the forum, HDL.   Been way too long.

Hi Jon,


I read here often, just stay silent mostly. Don't need the aggravation. But will pop in from time to time.


HDL

[Boethius]

Your 'mistake' is thinking you can tip up in UA / RU and seem like a wallet to be tapped and an upgrade ..

Many Russians / Ukrainians own their own apartments and have a Dacha  - they have a roof over their heads ..

Quite. 


I know that FSUW are not as enamored of the West as they were in the 1990's.  There is a realization now, that life in the West is different, but not better.


This post was composed without the aid of google.

[BillyB]

As far as wages and cost of living goes, it's much higher in Kiev than other parts of Ukraine.

It is true if the K1 visa is approved.  The petitioner cannot apply for another K1 for 2 years.

You are correct. If Scarface's k-1 is approved, he needs to cancel it before it gets approved otherwise he will have a waiting period.

Nothing precludes him from dating internationally.

If Scarface's k-1 is currently approved, then cancels it, gets back on the saddle and meets a new foreign woman and wants to do a k-1, she will have close to a 3 year wait before she can come to America. Two years waiting for when Scarface can apply for a 2nd k-1 and a year wait for her own k-1 to be processed. Hopefully Scarface's k-1 is not approved yet should he choose the same path. Marrying a woman in her country is another option if k-1 isn't currently available.

[krimster2]

"There is a realization now, that life in the West is different, but not better. "

chivo deavotchka maya?

are you kidding me?
remember I lived there...

the difference between an upper class American neighborhood and the average neighborhood in Ukraine
is the difference between the earth and sky
AND YOU KNOW THIS

compare the houses, shops, infrastructure here:

http://www.trulia.com/TX/Shenandoah/77380/

vrs Ukraine, and tell me one is not 1,000 times better than the other
I guess being 1,000 better is different
I remember myself the feeling of shock seeing all this after 3 years in Ukraine
you feel it, when you come here!!!!

[Boethius]

You forget that I lived there as well, for longer than did you, and I speak the language flawlessly.

You are discussing things that are overall, unimportant, and fail to see the gestalt.  The language, the culture, the perception of being part of a whole in your homeland.

Had you truly lived there, you would understand that you were a foreigner, and would always be.  You lived looking through your window, and you measure by what you perceive as important.

This post was composed without the aid of google.

[jone]

It seems the belts are coming off.......

[Boethius]

No, I'm not trying to vilify krimster.  The reality is, if you were not born in the FSU, you are a foreigner, and always will be. 

Your way of thinking, no matter where you were born, is to some degree formed by where you were raised.  To the average Ukrainian, being able to buy one of the houses in krimster's link is not the be all and end all in life.  Most FSU individuals in the West who do not marry Westerners self segregate in FSU centred communities.  What they value is different, in degrees, to what the average "Westerner" values.  Their societies are formed around different values, and function differently, to certain degrees.  It has been argued that this is partly why FSU individuals in the West have a disproportionately high suicide rate.  That's been studied in Russia and Ukraine, and has been reported on in newspapers, sort of as a cautionary tale.  I'm not certain that's fair, as one could argue that a person who emigrated was already someone who was seeking something different, couldn't find it at home or abroad, and therefore, is just generally unsatisfied in life. 

krimster is assuming what a person wants is based on his experiences and desires. 

This post was composed without the aid of google.

[krimster2]

gozpedy...

the pursuit of happiness is life’s main objective...
and this pursuit is much easier in a society that offers Whole Foods compared to society that offers a stoolchik and some samachkee...

to say that the pursuit of happiness is unimportant and irrelevant to the never ending exodus from Ukraine, is 100% FALSE...

what is more important than material well being and the associated mental well being this produces?

the people who want this feeling the most, aren’t those who are already wealthy
it’s those who are poor

so I say you are OBVIOUSLY wrong!

my rose colored glasses went away after about a year of living there
I was the only parent who would stay after dropping their kids off at school who would comb the playground for needles and broken vodka bottles before I returned home...

people who live in a wasteland dream of living where the grass is green
it’s as simple as that


“The language, the culture, the perception of being part of a whole in your homeland.”

sorry to say, I never felt part of ANY homeland...
except the one where I hung my coat

but tell me BO, what could have possibly caused you to give up on the glorious rodina
and return to a capitalist society with a coincidentally much higher standard of living
which obviously based on your comments was a HUGE loss for you to overcome to accept the decadent consumer west at the expense of losing your rodina...
how do you cope with the great suffering this must have caused you?

[Boethius]

the pursuit of happiness is life’s main objective...
and this pursuit is much easier in a society that offers Whole Foods compared to society that offers a stoolchik and some samachkee...

I can walk to a corner store or outdoor market from MIL's apartment in Kyiv and find the same foods I could at Whole Foods, at a tenth of the price.  Sure, if I were a Ukrainian pensioner, there'd be times in the year I couldn't afford grapes, or peppers, but eating wholesome fresh food is not really a concern for most Ukrainians.

what is more important than material well being and the associated mental well being this produces?

You look at this from a very narrow, and limited perspective.

the people who want this feeling the most, aren’t those who are already wealthy it’s those who are poor

so I say you are OBVIOUSLY wrong!

Were this true, there would be no happy monks.  My grandmother, God rest her soul, lived hand to mouth her entire life, and was one of the most contented people you could meet.  I've met plenty of "filthy rich" individuals who were miserable.  Money can buy you comfort.  It can't buy you happiness.

my rose colored glasses went away after about a year of living there
I was the only parent who would stay after dropping their kids off at school who would comb the playground for needles and broken vodka bottles before I returned home...

people who live in a wasteland dream of living where the grass is green
it’s as simple as that

Proof that you approached this from your own, Western perspective.

but tell me BO, what could have possibly caused you to give up on the glorious rodina
which obviously based on your comments was a HUGE loss for you to overcome to accept the decadent consumer west at the expense of losing your rodina...
how do you cope with the great suffering this must have caused you?

Ukraine is not my batkivshchina.  I am living in my homeland, the one that formed me, the one of which I am a product.  I'm just pointing to the fact that how people think is formed by their environment.  It's obvious to me that you don't understand Ukrainian thinking.  What you assume is important for them is not always the case.  Many of them find life in the West empty.  I'm not saying one way is right, the other is not, just that your way is not the only way, and it's not what everyone desires.

This post was composed without the aid of google.

[Frrrrrrt]

Guys, Boethius and Krimster, do you talk about whole Ukraine or certain areas? The thing is, I'm pretty much agree with both of you, but only in one case: if you Boethius talk about capital and few big cities and you Krimster about province. Those posts seem not as opinion of people who glass half full/half empty, but as conversation of people who speak about 2 absolutely different areas and different situations.

[jone]

With a name like Krimster, it would be difficult to figure out where his base of operations was.

[krimster2]

Gozpedy!!!

it is ironic that you emphasize the idealist observation that human experience is dependent on the perceptions from our environment, while I emphasize the importance of real-world conditions, in terms of socioeconomic interactions...

so what we have here, ain’t just a failure to communicate, no!
Borgia Moy!, Nyet!
it’s a full blown classic case of Dialectical Materialism versus the Hegelian Dialectic!!!!
and I think we all know how that argument turned out, right?
so based upon precedent, I have to say, sorry Bo, but Dialectical Materialism, based on the importance of real-world conditions of socioeconomic interactions is a better approach that uses knowledge and not feelings to gauge the world...

as a lawyer, you know that for you to evaluate my  level of knowledge of life in Ukraine, is purely conjectural....

I know what culture shock feels like, I’ve felt it many times....
and one of the biggest I ever felt, was when I came back to the USA after 3 years in Ukraine
I moved into a wealthy gated neighborhood in The Woodlands, Texas
It was a shock
How clean and organized everything was
EVERYONE lived in a mansion and drove a BMW or Mercedes, all cars were brand new
electricty, gas, water worked all the time!
mail was always delivered, garbage always collected, not one piece of trash on the street
all the grocery stores were “elitny”
it felt like the streets were paved with gold...
that was my perception, I imagine for some poor village girl like my wife it would be overwhelming
but then...
that is one of the reasons I married a village girl in the first place

when it comes to the ladies...
krimster is not a durachit', nyet!

I live the high life of a country gentleman, thanks to my two Russian cooks/housekeepers
I actually have 3, but only 2 are full time and one is just part time

so I have freshly laundered, scented and ironed clothes daily...
elaborate and exotic meals prepared and brought to me
and the house and office are spotless

and I have Russian women EAGERLY and ENTHUSIASTICALLY doing this for me every day....
and you tell me, I don't know life in Ukraine...
REALLY...
how'd I get this harem then?
cuz I thought I got it by totally using my knowledge of "Life in Ukraine"!!!
and what good is knowledge, if you can't apply it towards some goal
like living a life of total ease and luxury...
uhhhhhhmmmm hmmmmmmm...

finger snap and now over to VK and uvidet Russki boy!!
yalky palk ludie!

[msmob]

Frrrt!

Do not forget to introduce yourself.

I only ask as your posting style reminds me of someone.

[Boethius]

Guys, Boethius and Krimster, do you talk about whole Ukraine or certain areas? The thing is, I'm pretty much agree with both of you, but only in one case: if you Boethius talk about capital and few big cities and you Krimster about province. Those posts seem not as opinion of people who glass half full/half empty, but as conversation of people who speak about 2 absolutely different areas and different situations.

I am referring not only to Kyiv, but to zadrepane selos from Central Ukraine to the Western border, as these are areas I know well.


This post was composed without the aid of google.

[Boethius]

http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=23966.msg519023#msg519023

Ukraine 2019 is not Ukraine 1999, or even Ukraine 2008.

This post was composed without the aid of google.

[krimster2]

slovo tvoyey mamma!

last year over 100,000 people were leaving Ukraine each month...
based on this alarming statistic, it sounds a lot like the “same ole’ Ukraine” to me...

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/brain-drain-devastating-ukraine-n976936

[Boethius]

But those are not UW leaving to marry WM.  They are Ukrainians leaving to work in Europe, predominantly, Poland.  Poland's language and culture are similar, certainly, not foreign, to a Ukrainian.  Even in the Soviet period, there were towns in Poland that were ethnic majority Ukrainian.  In 2017, 662,000 Ukrainians moved to the EU, and of that number, 585,439 moved to Poland. The other EU countries with large (in relation to their size) Ukrainian immigrant populations are the Czech Republic, Hungary (there are a significant number of ethnic Hungarians in the Western Ukrainian border region), Slovakia, Lithuania, and Estonia.  Then, of course, there are literally millions of Ukrainians who emigrate to Russia.  Culturally, all of these countries are similar to Ukraine.  Other than Hungary (and as I noted, it is Hungarian Ukrainians moving there), all of the languages are similar to Ukrainian, so functioning within that country is a given from Day 1. 

77,000 residency permits were issued to Ukrainians by Russia in 2018, and a further 81,000 Ukrainians took Russian citizenship.  That was all before the rules for Ukrainians to obtain Russian citizenship were loosened by Russia.

The majority of the Ukrainians in the EU eventually will return to Ukraine.  I don't believe that's the case for those in Russia.




Google was used to confirm the numbers of Ukrainians issued residency permits/citizenship in the EU and Russia.

[krimster2]

statistics from the DHS shows that there is NOW only half as many men who are willing to be visa sponsors then there was just 4 years ago!!

to a woman wanting to marry an AM....
the “fair market value” of such a man just doubled!!!
so his stock doubled in price compared to 4 years ago due to the drop in supply...

Ladies!
why carry the immigration load all by yourself, when a smart girl can just marry an American donkey and let him DO ALL THE HEAVY LIFTING for you...

it’s really very easy to get an American man to do whatever you want him to do!

smart Russian women will become hunters and get a visa and come here in Woodlands, Texas, go to a mid-size church in the richest zip code and look for men in dark suits and ties who are sitting alone in church....
these are the local oil men....
you accidentally bump into them on the way out of church...
and take it from there....

[ML]

Boe, Estonian language is in family with Hungarian and Finnish, and has nothing in common with Slavic languages.

[Trenchcoat]

Boe, Estonian language is in family with Hungarian and Finnish, and has nothing in common with Slavic languages.

Ooo... That's going to bite, she ain't going to take that well, lol

[Boethius]

if you combine K1 and K2 for the USA, you get maybe 5% out of the total population fleeing Ukraine each year, who instead of doing all that heavy immigration work on their own,
will simply get an American donkey to do it all for them!   
a VERY smart move!!!

There were less than 2000 fiance and spousal visas issued to Ukrainians for the US in 2017.  Of those, some will be FSUM in the US marrying FSUW, some will be women marrying men. 

The Ukrainian government keeps statistics on this, for all countries.  In 2018, 489 Ukrainians married foreigners from the US, Canada, and Mexico.  Of the 225,880 marriages in the country, 214,519 were to UM.  The highest number of marriages to foreigners was to Asia and the Middle East - 5,341.  I suspect the vast majority of that number is comprised of marriages to Israelis.

So, overall, a drop in the bucket.  North America is just not as attractive a destination as it was 15 years ago.

Boe, Estonian language is in family with Hungarian and Finnish, and has nothing in common with Slavic languages.

I know that.   However, about 25% of Estonia's population is ethnically Russian, and about a third of the population speaks Russian as their first language.  The eastern part of Estonia is largely Russian speaking.  Narva, for example, has a majority Russian population.  Tallinn is about 50% Russian speaking, although Russians are a minority there.  So, it is easy for Ukrainians to function in the country.  Moreover, the culture is still heavily influenced by the past, so it is not "foreign" to a Ukrainian.

This post was composed without the aid of google, but I did access a Ukrainian government portal for the marriage statistics.

[msmob]

Ooo... That's going to bite, she ain't going to take that well, lol

I read to the end and saw the Boethius had posted the riposte I was going to make to ML.

As for Trench,

Once again...wait a while to learn, rather than proving you haven't been to places.

[krimster2]

according to DHS for 2017 there were 32,998 K-1 visas approved that year

During the Trump Presidency, denials have increased, approvals have decreased, and pending cases have skyrocketed...

and this is reflected in the statistics....
so the decrease is NOT caused by a drop in demand but in supply....

what would happen to the price of oil if you cut it’s supply in half....
inelastic demand would mean the price would double....

guess what happened to the value of a 40 yr old AM visa sponsor in the Ukrainian MOB market in the last 3 years?  yeah baby, it went up!!!!

100,000 people are leaving Ukraine per month...
3% of the population per year
seeking to live an “empty life” in the west, away from dear Rodina

that’s a big market in search of an EZ solution
to all the difficulties of the immigration process
and the product I sold was very appealing to my market segment
poor single Ukrainian women in their mid 20s
I gave ALL my customers COMPLETE satisfaction...

and I have a salesman's "hunch", that comes from knowing the territory
that in another year or so, "market conditions"
are gonna change
even more to the AM's favor...