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Author Topic: The Russian/Syrian connection thread  (Read 253525 times)

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Offline Belvis

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Re: The Russian/Syrian connection thread
« Reply #100 on: October 02, 2015, 10:35:53 AM »
Iraq since the removal of Hussein has been unstable, due to continued sectarian violence, but that had subsided.  Most of this is the result of al Maliki.  I think you can compare it, in some ways, to the instability in Russia in the aftermath of the collapse of the USSR.  The difference in Russia is, a form of government had existed, and the population was not armed to the teeth.

You can't see the wood for the trees. Mailiki may be a good man, bu we're talking about nations. If a ruler is a good man but tens of thousands of his citizens died I don't care about his personal qualities.  Let him be the bad guy who would save his people from self-destruction. Yeltsin was a good man for West, but Russians almost hate him because his times were times of misery for large part of population.
 

Offline Boethius

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Re: The Russian/Syrian connection thread
« Reply #101 on: October 02, 2015, 10:38:08 AM »
Communist welfare mothers can live on food stamps that doesn't make the communist
welfare mothers parents poor does it? Both his grandparents had decent paying jobs
and his grandmother was vice president of a bank.

His grandparents weren't poor or lower middle class


His Grandmother worked essentially as a bank secretary when Obama was growing up.  His Grandfather was off and on employed.

In Hawaii they always had a blend of different racial backgrounds and his school was
no different. He was writing his Cinderfella piece for a book and it wasn't true.



You forget the times.  There weren't a lot of African Americans in Hawaii in the 1970's.  It's changed a lot since Obama left.  In any event, if you read his book, you would know that this was his feeling.


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Offline Boethius

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Re: The Russian/Syrian connection thread
« Reply #102 on: October 02, 2015, 10:40:35 AM »
You can't see the wood for the trees. Mailiki may be a good man, bu we're talking about nations. If a ruler is a good man but tens of thousands of his citizens died I don't care about his personal qualities.  Let him be the bad guy who would save his people from self-destruction. Yeltsin was a good man for West, but Russians almost hate him because his times were times of misery for large part of population.


I never stated Maliki was a good man.  Also, tens of thousands were not dying during his tenure.  The Sunnis' beef was being shut out of power/decision making.


The times of misery in Russia were the result of the corruption and inefficiency that preceded the collapse of the USSR. 
After the fall of communism, the biggest mistake Boris Yeltsin's regime made was not to disband the KGB altogether. Instead it changed its name to the FSB and, to many observers, morphed into a gangster organisation, eventually headed by master criminal Vladimir Putin. - Gerard Batten

Offline Gator

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Re: The Russian/Syrian connection thread
« Reply #103 on: October 02, 2015, 12:17:53 PM »

True, but note, by the time the US had decided to arm Syrian rebels, the civil war had already started.

The  civil war had its start long before Obama, Bush, Clinton, Reagan, Carter, etc.  There was unrest even before Assad's father Hafez  seized power as a dictator around 1970.  He was the ruler before Saddam Hussein took control in Iraq, and his single-party rule was about as ruthless as Saddam's.  Bashar is considered even more cunning and ruthless than his father. 

Besides the lack of democracy and the long-term bad economy of Syria, another factor for unrest is religion.  The Assad family are Alawites, a Shia oriented minority  in a country that is about 75% Sunni.  So this civil war did not suddenly start with the Arab Spring, the formation of diverse opposition groups, and the first shots fired by those groups.   

As far as arming Syrian rebels, the US is a minor contributor.  It seems the UK and France have done more, and those two are dwarfed by the Saudis and other Arab states. 


Quote
  You could lay this at the feet of the neocons as well.  One of the points made in Project for a New American Century was that by removing Saddam Hussein, the seeds of democracy would be sown in the Middle East.   

Congratulations for being one of the last persons still blaming Bush    I believe even Obama has stopped blaming Bush in his speeches.   Yet your point has some merit.  The opportunity to establish democracies was one of two key reasons for Bush invading Iraq.  How well did that work?  Bad intelligence and analysis by Bush and his staff.  The other reason - establish a permanent base for US troops.   We had that, yet Obama gave it away, allowing Russia to now have  the only permanent military base in the region.  Belvis's quote is appropriate:  "The road to hell is paved with good intentions".

So yes, Bush made a mistake with what he did in Iraq.  I assert  Obama has made a mistake everywhere in the Middle East.  This is Obama's legacy, and is no longer Bush's fault.  Obama and Hillary can not blame it on Bush.   The implications of Obama's and Hillary's mistakes  are more troubling for long term stability than Bush's mistake in Iraq.  Will Obama try to do something in his final year  to correct the mess, or will he let it fester while preparing for a life of privilege, leisure and wealth as a retired US President? 

Offline Muzh

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Re: The Russian/Syrian connection thread
« Reply #104 on: October 02, 2015, 01:05:39 PM »
I don't think Iraqis feel comfortable to die from a lack of power sharing, just because   they have not ruthless government. You raise the issue in manner that moral qualities of a government is higher priority for you than the  human lives. I suppose the starting point must be  well-being of the nation, not  moral character  of the rulers of this nation. In this way tens of thousands Iraqis can not express their satisfication from the not so ruthless government because they are all dead.


Ah, you are referring to Putler and Yanukonvict, right?  ;)
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Offline Muzh

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Re: The Russian/Syrian connection thread
« Reply #105 on: October 02, 2015, 01:16:10 PM »
You can't see the wood for the trees. Mailiki may be a good man, bu we're talking about nations. If a ruler is a good man but tens of thousands of his citizens died I don't care about his personal qualities.  Let him be the bad guy who would save his people from self-destruction. Yeltsin was a good man for West, but Russians almost hate him because his times were times of misery for large part of population.
 


And then came the shirtless man showing his macho pectorals and the whole country chanted: You Da Man!!!!
To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason, and whose philosophy consists in holding humanity in contempt, is like administering medicine to the dead. Thomas Paine - The American Crisis 1776-1783

Offline jone

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Re: The Russian/Syrian connection thread
« Reply #106 on: October 02, 2015, 01:38:11 PM »

And then came the shirtless man showing his macho pectorals and the whole country chanted: You Da Man!!!!

Ya, dere, man!

Just like they revered Joseph Jughashvili.  He was such a nice guy, just murdered 30 million of his own people. 

You and me.  We're just statistics.

Hey, I know.  We can start a five year plan for Syria!  They'll be in the pink in no time!
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Offline fathertime

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Re: The Russian/Syrian connection thread
« Reply #107 on: October 02, 2015, 01:39:53 PM »


So yes, Bush made a mistake with what he did in Iraq.  I assert  Obama has made a mistake everywhere in the Middle East.  This is Obama's legacy, and is no longer Bush's fault.  Obama and Hillary can not blame it on Bush.   The implications of Obama's and Hillary's mistakes  are more troubling for long term stability than Bush's mistake in Iraq.  Will Obama try to do something in his final year  to correct the mess, or will he let it fester while preparing for a life of privilege, leisure and wealth as a retired US President?


I wouldn't focus on blaming individual leaders, and saying who has the most blame...BUT if I have realized that Obama has been in a pickle due to what Bush did.  After expending and borrowing trillions of our dollars for Middle East wars that have produced mostly rancor, distrust, and death, Obama no longer really had that option.  He would have been stonewalled, and/or run out of town on a rail.  The right wing would have mercilessly undermined him,and the left would have scorched his remains....


I say, "Go Europe!"  Get off your ass and fix the problem in the Middle East.



Given much of history, the world's people must shudder when they think of Europe 'fixing' problems....the results invariably have entailed a healthy dose of deaths.  I say, let them solve their own problems, and quit trying to exploit them.


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Online 2tallbill

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Re: The Russian/Syrian connection thread
« Reply #108 on: October 02, 2015, 01:42:35 PM »
This is Obama's legacy, and is no longer Bush's fault.  Obama and Hillary can not blame it on Bush.   The implications of Obama's and Hillary's mistakes  are more troubling for long term stability than Bush's mistake in Iraq.  Will Obama try to do something in his final year  to correct the mess, or will he let it fester while preparing for a life of privilege, leisure and wealth as a retired US President?

If invading Iraq was Bush's fault (and it was) then Qaddafi ending his weapons program
and participating in reducing terror was on Bush too. So killing Qaddafi is totally on
Team Obama/Hillary and turning the area into a bloodbath is theirs too. Team Obama/Hillary
were so inept in Libya that their own diplomat was murdered there and they blamed the
whole thing on a Youtube video. Incompetence and ineptitude mixed with lies exemplifies
the Obama/Hillary Libyan bloodbaths.

Bush had an excellent relationship with Egypts President Hosni Mubarak who was frequently
helping on the war on terror. So team Obama/Hillary destroyed that relationship and turned
the area into a bloodbath for factions that lived peaceably in Egypt for hundreds of years.
Now death and mayhem.

Team Obama/Hillary gave hundreds of millions of dollars to various factions and bad actors
in Syria most of whom aren't even participating. You have to be especially incompetent to
do that. 

Blame Bush for getting involved in the first place but blame Obama for screwing everything
up in the region.

« Last Edit: October 02, 2015, 01:44:32 PM by 2tallbill »
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Offline fathertime

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Re: The Russian/Syrian connection thread
« Reply #109 on: October 02, 2015, 01:55:43 PM »
Weapons - Yes, but not to a significant degree. 

Bombed - Yes, but ISIS.   What's wrong with that?  No bombing of Asad's military. 



We don't know for sure what we have given away, and what we have 'accidentally' allowed to fall in the hands of ISIS.


Maybe we haven't bombed his military directly, but we have enabled others to attack it...I doubt we ever much bombed ISIS when he was fighting against Assad units, which is not surprising. 


In addition to this, when the USA comes out publicly like we have, it can be very impactful in that it discourages people who might side to fight with with Assad...the thought of fighting an internal revolution is one thing, but the thought of taking on the US military whereby you won't even see the bombs until you are dead is another.  So overall I think our stance has probably changed the entire dynamic...


  I gather you have no problem with Russia being able to DRIVE THE AGENDA?   That is what Russia can do with Obama's slow retreat from the Middle East.  I believe it is time for Europe to take the lead to 1)  counter Russia and 2) balance the forces at play in the Middle East to bring stability.  Europe is importing far more of the Middle Eastern oil than the US, and Europe is receiving the refugees created by conflicts in the Middle East.  So Europe, add the Middle East to Ukraine as a place where you need to step up.   


I don't think Russia is going to be driving the agenda more than we already are.  I'm not sure how much that is either.    Driving agenda's  must be a new age form of imperialism in the region.   Outside countries should have let Syria's uprising play out, instead of trying to affect it's outcome. 


Fathertime! 




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Offline Muzh

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Re: The Russian/Syrian connection thread
« Reply #110 on: October 02, 2015, 01:58:17 PM »

So yes, Bush made a mistake with what he did in Iraq.  I assert  Obama has made a mistake everywhere in the Middle East.  This is Obama's legacy, and is no longer Bush's fault.  Obama and Hillary can not blame it on Bush.   The implications of Obama's and Hillary's mistakes  are more troubling for long term stability than Bush's mistake in Iraq.  Will Obama try to do something in his final year  to correct the mess, or will he let it fester while preparing for a life of privilege, leisure and wealth as a retired US President?


Yep, and the housing collapse, and climate change, and the gun violence in America, and the invasion of Ukraine, and Burkina Faso, and my neighbors bad odor, etc. all Obama's fault.


Feel free to add more.  ;)
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Offline Gator

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Re: The Russian/Syrian connection thread
« Reply #111 on: October 02, 2015, 04:10:21 PM »

Given much of history, the world's people must shudder when they think of Europe 'fixing' problems....the results invariably have entailed a healthy dose of deaths.

That was the old Europe before the EU.  The new Europe operates under ISO standards to make life better for everyone. 


 
Quote
I say, let them solve their own problems, and quit trying to exploit them.


Why didn't I think of that!  The Arab nations have an impeccable record of  working together and resolving their conflicts. 

Arab states could not work together when many obtained their independence in the aftermath of WW I.  In 1948 they could not work together to defeat a very much smaller Israel.   Please give me one good example of Arab states working together to accomplish something significant.  I would say the best example is OPEC, yet it has no teeth today.       


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Re: The Russian/Syrian connection thread
« Reply #112 on: October 02, 2015, 04:30:42 PM »

I don't think Russia is going to be driving the agenda more than we already are.  I'm not sure how much that is either.    Driving agenda's  must be a new age form of imperialism in the region.   

It seems you do not understand the meaning of "driving the agenda."   This is what Hitler did in the 1930s Germany.  Most Germans would have  considered themselves then as peaceful people, yet the Nazis as a minority party  seized power and led Germany to  invading much of Europe. 

It is difficult to explain this to you because you see Putin as someone who is not trying to make Russia great again as a military power.  Nope, you think of him as someone who will negotiate win-win solutions.  You do not see him as the 800-lb Gorilla.  The gorilla has now entered the room (the Middle East) and who knows the long-term implications.  And we can do little to stop him. 



Quote
Outside countries should have let Syria's uprising play out, instead of trying to affect it's outcome. 

Great idea, do nothing.  That is largely what the US has done (Example:  Obama drew a red line, told Assad not to cross it, Assad crossed it, and Obama did nothing).  Even without boots on the ground and with minimal weapons from the US,   it seems  the opposition groups had Assad on the run.  Russia entered to protect Assad, and I guarantee they will now turn this around.  I can only imagine the reprisals in store for the opposition groups as Assad's forces regain the territory.   

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Re: The Russian/Syrian connection thread
« Reply #113 on: October 02, 2015, 04:34:10 PM »

Feel free to add more.  ;)

1.  Divisiveness - Failing as a leader to cross the aisle.  Instead taking steps that made the far right intractable. 

2.  Racial relations taking a step backwards. 

Offline Muzh

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Re: The Russian/Syrian connection thread
« Reply #114 on: October 02, 2015, 04:55:40 PM »
1.  Divisiveness - Failing as a leader to cross the aisle.  Instead taking steps that made the far right intractable. 

2.  Racial relations taking a step backwards.


LMFAO


Boy, I tell you. It is true that Americans have the shortest political memory in the world. Or is it that they forget on purpose so it will fit their needs?
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Offline fathertime

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Re: The Russian/Syrian connection thread
« Reply #115 on: October 02, 2015, 07:22:14 PM »
 
Why didn't I think of that!  The Arab nations have an impeccable record of  working together and resolving their conflicts. 

Arab states could not work together when many obtained their independence in the aftermath of WW I.  In 1948 they could not work together to defeat a very much smaller Israel.   Please give me one good example of Arab states working together to accomplish something significant.  I would say the best example is OPEC, yet it has no teeth today.     
An state such as Syria can solve it's problems or not solve them. It is not up to us to create a wider war or determine the outcome. 


It seems you do not understand the meaning of "driving the agenda."   This is what Hitler did in the 1930s Germany.  Most Germans would have  considered themselves then as peaceful people, yet the Nazis as a minority party  seized power and led Germany to  invading much of Europe. 



And how are you relating Germany to the current situation in Syria?


It is difficult to explain this to you because you see Putin as someone who is not trying to make Russia great again as a military power.  Nope, you think of him as someone who will negotiate win-win solutions.  You do not see him as the 800-lb Gorilla.  The gorilla has now entered the room (the Middle East) and who knows the long-term implications.  And we can do little to stop him. 


I understand what you are saying, but there is no 'explaining' because I don't accept your explanations. For many we (the USA) is seen as the 800 pound gorilla. We entered the room a while ago, another 800 pound gorilla is also entering now, so neither will get all it would like to. 


Great idea, do nothing.  That is largely what the US has done (Example:  Obama drew a red line, told Assad not to cross it, Assad crossed it, and Obama did nothing).  Even without boots on the ground and with minimal weapons from the US,   it seems  the opposition groups had Assad on the run.  Russia entered to protect Assad, and I guarantee they will now turn this around.  I can only imagine the reprisals in store for the opposition groups as Assad's forces regain the territory.   


I disagree that we have done little, if Russia hadn't entered the fray, Assad probably would have eventually fallen, and I think we have been the deciding factor as I explained earlier.  We, other Western nations have carried out 1000's of sorties in an effort to boast rebel forces, that is a lot.  Supplying weapons, while destroying opposing weaponry is also a big deal.  The psychological factor of fighting the USA is also a big deal and has probably scared a lot of Assad loyalists away.  In addition to all of this, we have been organizing and trying to train rebel forces...and who knows what other special operations missions we have undertaken.   It is probably because the so called moderate rebels aren't very strong or numerous, that they haven't already taken over. 
We didn't need to enter this fray by doing so we have invited others to do the same, now oppositional forces are also entering.    Many Syrians don't want us there, and I'd wager most Americans also want us to butt out.


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The Russian/Syrian connection thread
« Reply #116 on: October 03, 2015, 01:32:34 PM »
It's my opinion that Obama doesn't care what happens in Syria. I am sure he cares
more about leaf blower emission regulation or taking over every rain puddle in the
USA far more than if a half million die in Syria. He would love to take on a zillion
refuges and dump them in a red state.



Obama says Syria 'is not some superpower chessboard contest'

President Obama defended his response to the growing crisis in Syria on Friday by pointing to the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, cautioning against a commitment that risks drawing the U.S. into a new quagmire in the Middle East.

Obama appeared determined to take on critics whom he portrayed as impatient and ignorant of the complexity of the warring factions in Syria. He laughed off suggestions that Russian airstrikes in recent days against fighters opposed to President Bashar Assad, an ally of Moscow’s, have President Vladimir Putin looking stronger than Obama in Syria.

He acknowledged that U.S. strategy, particularly his program to train and equip Syrian fighters to counter Islamic State extremists who have taken over parts of the country, has been less successful than he had hoped. But a deeper military engagement won’t necessarily result in success, Obama warned.

Like the Assad government, Putin does not seem to be drawing a distinction among Syrian rebel groups or to steer around any that might be backed by the U.S.-led bombing campaign in Syria.

Obama advisors say they take Putin at his word that he wants to stop the spread of the Islamic State extremists and to eradicate their safe havens in Syria. The White House insists that the only way to fight the spread of the Islamic State is for Assad to leave power and to defuse the political turmoil surrounding him.

Here is the entire story
http://www.latimes.com/world/la-fg-obama-syria-russia-20151002-story.html
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Re: The Russian/Syrian connection thread
« Reply #117 on: October 03, 2015, 05:05:04 PM »
Congratulations for being one of the last persons still blaming Bush    I believe even Obama has stopped blaming Bush in his speeches.   Yet your point has some merit.  The opportunity to establish democracies was one of two key reasons for Bush invading Iraq.  How well did that work?  Bad intelligence and analysis by Bush and his staff.  The other reason - establish a permanent base for US troops.   We had that, yet Obama gave it away, allowing Russia to now have  the only permanent military base in the region.  Belvis's quote is appropriate:  "The road to hell is paved with good intentions".

So yes, Bush made a mistake with what he did in Iraq.  I assert  Obama has made a mistake everywhere in the Middle East.  This is Obama's legacy, and is no longer Bush's fault.  Obama and Hillary can not blame it on Bush.   The implications of Obama's and Hillary's mistakes  are more troubling for long term stability than Bush's mistake in Iraq.  Will Obama try to do something in his final year  to correct the mess, or will he let it fester while preparing for a life of privilege, leisure and wealth as a retired US President?

The result would have been the same even with US troops on the ground.  It just would have occurred at a different time.

You cannot occupy a country (because that is what the invasion and occupation of Iraq was), kill and displace millions of its citizens, and expect stability.  The roots of ISIS are at the feet of the Bush administration, because it was the Bush administrationthat decided to disband all state organs, and remove Baathists from any position of power.  That disenfranchisement of the minority Sunni population is what lead to ISIS.  This has been written about extensively by experts, but here is one good overview, from an insider -

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/dec/11/-sp-isis-the-inside-story


Belvis, you should read the link as well, as it tends to negate your assertion of the "stability" an Assad regime will supply.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2015, 05:17:56 PM by Boethius »
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Re: The Russian/Syrian connection thread
« Reply #118 on: October 03, 2015, 05:13:13 PM »
It's my opinion that Obama doesn't care what happens in Syria.


When he wanted to bomb the Syrian regime after the first chemical attacks, he was stymied by Congress.
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Re: The Russian/Syrian connection thread
« Reply #119 on: October 03, 2015, 06:14:16 PM »

When he wanted to bomb the Syrian regime after the first chemical attacks, he was stymied by Congress.

Not exactly, while congress didn't like the idea (both parties), he was stymied by his own
secretary of state, then by himself during his Sept 10, 2013 speech asking congress to wait.
You could argue that by putting pressure on Assad that he agreed to eliminate his chemical
weapons, but I think everyone knows it pretty much happened by an accidental comment
by John Kerry.

Here is a timeline

December 23, 2012: The first allegation of  chemical weapons use was reported.
September 9, 2013 suggestion by U.S. Secretary of State John Kerry that Syria turn
over all of its chemical weapons and it wouldn't be bombed
September 10, 2013 Obama made a speech from the East Room about Syria asking
Congress to wait.
September 14 2013 Russia negotiated "Framework for Elimination of Syrian Chemical
Weapons," which calls for the elimination of Syria's chemical weapon stockpiles
 
Obama's words on Sept 10th 2013
"I have, therefore, asked the leaders of Congress to postpone a vote to authorize the
use of force while we pursue this diplomatic path.  I’m sending Secretary of State
John Kerry to meet his Russian counterpart on Thursday, and I will continue my own
discussions with President Putin.  I’ve spoken to the leaders of two of our closest allies,
France and the United Kingdom, and we will work together in consultation with Russia
and China to put forward a resolution at the U.N. Security Council requiring Assad to
give up his chemical weapons, and to ultimately destroy them under international control."

read the entire Obama Sept 10 2013 speech here
http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2013-09-10/news/chi-transcript-of-obama-syria-speech-20130910_1_chemical-weapons-sarin-gas-assad/3
« Last Edit: October 03, 2015, 06:18:44 PM by 2tallbill »
FSUW are not for entry level daters
FSUW don't do vague
FSUW like a man of action. Be a man of action 
If you find a promising girl, get your butt on a plane.
There are a hundred ways to be successful and a thousand ways to f#ck it up
Just kiss the girl, don't ask her first. Tolerate NO excuses!

Offline BillyB

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Re: The Russian/Syrian connection thread
« Reply #120 on: October 03, 2015, 07:20:14 PM »

Independent nations can make their own choices, and if they 'want a friend' and choose Iran, Russia, or even the US then that is one thing....but it isn't up to us to force a very bloody regime change to gain advantage, and if we do, then we are not in any position to cry out when another nation does something similar. 



America, Russia and Iran have friends in every nation. If America doesn't want to support their friends, Russia and Iran will gladly support their friends. How many friends to we and they have in Syria? Just look at the 4+ million refugees. How many of those refugees moved to a NATO nation or have the desire to do so and how many of those refugees are banging down Russia's and Iran's doors to get in their nations? It's clear the majority of the people living in the Middle East do not want to be governed by leaders friendly to Russia or Iran.


I say, "Go Europe!"  Get off your ass and fix the problem in the Middle East.



Many Europeans have a problem with America being the world cop. Obama doesn't want to be the world cop and they like him for that. The Middle East problems didn't get fixed over there, so the problems(refugees) come to Europe. Denmark was giving $1700 a month to asylum seekers but had to make cutbacks to discourage refugees from coming.


Obama has almost 2 terms to help bring stability to the Middle East. He failed.
Fund the audits, spread the word and educate people, write your politicians and other elected officials. Stay active in the fight to save our country. Over 220 generals and admirals say we are in a fight for our survival like no other time since 1776.

Offline BillyB

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Re: The Russian/Syrian connection thread
« Reply #121 on: October 03, 2015, 08:10:34 PM »
6,800 American families who will never see their loved ones, and the hundreds of thousands of wounded now being stiffed by the VA.



Since Bush took us into the Iraqi war after 9/11, thousands of police officers died and hundreds of thousands injured right here in America . Should an American President, out of compassion, eliminate the role of police officer? It is wise to have police officers as it is wise to have soldiers. I know you don't approve of the Iraqi war but if a few thousand American soldiers died for your beloved Ukraine, you'd be happy it may save many more lives. Ukraine may explode just as Syria has with a result of 1/4 million dead and half the citizens of Syria displaced. Obama can't make the world perfect but he has a lot of power to save hundreds of thousands of lives even if it cost a few thousand American lives.
Fund the audits, spread the word and educate people, write your politicians and other elected officials. Stay active in the fight to save our country. Over 220 generals and admirals say we are in a fight for our survival like no other time since 1776.

Offline fathertime

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Re: The Russian/Syrian connection thread
« Reply #122 on: October 04, 2015, 09:08:48 AM »

America, Russia and Iran have friends in every nation. If America doesn't want to support their friends, Russia and Iran will gladly support their friends. How many friends to we and they have in Syria? Just look at the 4+ million refugees. How many of those refugees moved to a NATO nation or have the desire to do so and how many of those refugees are banging down Russia's and Iran's doors to get in their nations? It's clear the majority of the people living in the Middle East do not want to be governed by leaders friendly to Russia or Iran.




   
Does Russia even allow refugees from Syria?  I didn't think they did.   If millions flock to Europe and stay, it will be because they are allowed to, and presumably have an opportunity to make some money, or maybe they intend on living on the dole.  We, the US, didn't need to escalate the internal problem.  I'm not seeing the direct benefit, although, there might be a hidden and or embarrassing one that the public isn't generally aware of.  Fathertime!

« Last Edit: October 04, 2015, 09:18:03 AM by fathertime »
I just happened to be browsing about the internet....

Offline Gator

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Re: The Russian/Syrian connection thread
« Reply #123 on: October 04, 2015, 09:50:04 AM »
An state such as Syria can solve it's problems or not solve them. It is not up to us to create a wider war or determine the outcome. 

Why are you so anti-American when we have done so little in Syria, yet indifferent to Russia entering the conflict and destroying rebel groups seeking a free Syria?  Do you really not understand Putin's long-term motives and the implications for the West. 


Quote

I disagree that we have done little, if Russia hadn't entered the fray, Assad probably would have eventually fallen, and I think we have been the deciding factor as I explained earlier. 

So you are now in the camp that it is better for world stability if brutal dictators are allowed to stay in power, regardless of the domestic human suffering.  You are not alone.

I OTOH understand and support the noble goal Obama had to back opposition groups intent on replacing dictators with democracies.  The only problem is this is very messy in the Middle East with some bad possible outcomes,  and Obama has so far failed in its implementation, as would most who have attempted  this with restraint.  News for you:  Putin and Assad will advance with no restraints.

If Russia goes all in, the opposition groups will be diminished to small pockets of guerillas within a couple of years.  Do we let them collapse totally, or do we support them like Charlie Wilson supported the mujahedeen in Afghanistan. 



Quote
We, other Western nations have carried out 1000's of sorties in an effort to boast rebel forces, that is a lot. 

Statements like this show the depth of your ignorance.  The US has conducted no sorties against Assad.   Please show me accounts of where we have attacked Assad's forces.
 

Quote
The psychological factor of fighting the USA is also a big deal and has probably scared a lot of Assad loyalists away.

Ha Ha.  You can not be serious. If true,  explain Afghanistan and Iraq. 


Offline Gator

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Re: The Russian/Syrian connection thread
« Reply #124 on: October 04, 2015, 10:02:17 AM »
The result would have been the same even with US troops on the ground.  It just would have occurred at a different time.

Difficult to say.  If the majority Shia never share any power with the Sunni, then the same would have happened.  I was always in the camp of dividing Iraq into three countries.  The major problem is the Sunni have little oil in their territory and the Shia would have allied with Iran (which they seem to be doing anyway). 


At least a permanent US base would have stopped the ISIS invasion from Syria.   


Quote
This has been written about extensively by experts, but here is one good overview, from an insider -

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/dec/11/-sp-isis-the-inside-story


Belvis, you should read the link as well, as it tends to negate your assertion of the "stability" an Assad regime will supply.

I have read such accounts.  Educated Sunni would never support ISIS control of their region, nor would a majority vote for it if it were a choice vs. a democracy. 

 

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