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Author Topic: US and taxation  (Read 14124 times)

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Offline Anotherkiwi

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Re: US and taxation
« Reply #50 on: August 27, 2016, 02:40:29 AM »
Good points, Kiwi. Another outrage in the States......inheritance tax. WTF business is it of the federal government as to what a parent wills to child?!

In other parts of the world it is known as death duties - slightly different, in that it's the estate that is taxed, rather than the beneficiaries directly.  Same result, though - the gubmint gets the lolly.

Offline fathertime

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Re: US and taxation
« Reply #51 on: August 27, 2016, 05:00:11 AM »
Good points, Kiwi. Another outrage in the States......inheritance tax. WTF business is it of the federal government as to what a parent wills to child?!


If we want to reel in unearned dynasties a bit, we should have an inheritance tax at some point.  If we want people to advance on their own merit rather than being born into massive unearned wealth, then inheritance tax can help...just a bit.  Currently a married couple is able to exclude around 11 million prior to any tax.  I have no big problem with that because I feel it can do two things in theory.
1.  Help fund the govt.
2.  Put a stick in the spokes of at least some unearned wealth, and transfer it to the working folk.


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Offline fathertime

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Re: US and taxation
« Reply #52 on: August 27, 2016, 05:02:27 AM »
Cop out?! Really?! What's your justification for taxing a person making 250K at a rate 2-3X higher than a person a person making 40K annually?

Lemme guess.... "Spread the wealth", right?


Somebody ends up having to pay for everything from schools to bridges to the military...the highest earners are benefiting most and are taxed at a higher rate...the way it has to be.


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Offline Darth_Budda

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Re: US and taxation
« Reply #53 on: August 27, 2016, 05:13:02 AM »

Somebody ends up having to pay for everything from schools to bridges to the military...the highest earners are benefiting most and are taxed at a higher rate...the way it has to be.


Fathertime!


I agree,,, The Wealth of the world is not made by one person.. It is made and influenced by the society as a whole.

A highly progressive income tax is needed.. 
A flat Tax as some on the Far Right want, would only work if we also had income equality...

We need a government of action to fight for working families!
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Offline Boethius

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Re: US and taxation
« Reply #54 on: August 27, 2016, 07:19:13 AM »
Most Western countries impose a tax on death.  Unlike most Western countries, the U.S. has a huge exemption before tax is imposed.
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Offline BorisS

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Re: US and taxation
« Reply #55 on: August 27, 2016, 07:21:05 AM »
This is just absolutely insane and insulting. The IRS needs to have their proverbial tea dumped on their front lawn a la Boston Harbor a few centuries ago. Ridiculous.....


It's not the IRS. It's Congress. The tea should be dumped where it belongs. The IRS just enforces the law as it concerns the federal income tax passed by Congress.

Online 2tallbill

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US and taxation
« Reply #56 on: August 27, 2016, 10:37:04 AM »

It's not the IRS. It's Congress. The tea should be dumped where it belongs. The IRS just enforces the law as it concerns the federal income tax passed by Congress.

I disagree, there is a corrosive group think at the IRS. You usually have to take them
to tax court to get them to follow the law. They write their own regulations then they
enforce them as if they were the law. Then when they lose in court they selectively
enforce the law as determined by the boundaries of that court. So if a regulation is
determined repeatedly to be illegal by a federal court in say New Hampshire, they
would stop enforcing their illegal regulation there but they would continue to enforce
it in Arizona and all other areas not within the territorial boundaries by that court.   

They are a bad and corrupt organization and they need to be abolished and a
different organization needs to take it's place with none of the old players in it.
Don't believe it? call and ask for tax advice from their "free taxpayer assistance
phone line"
They might recommend that you file married filing separately or
some other terrible advice.

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Offline BorisS

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Re: US and taxation
« Reply #57 on: August 27, 2016, 10:59:22 AM »
I disagree, there is a corrosive group think at the IRS. You usually have to take them
to tax court to get them to follow the law. They write their own regulations then they
enforce them as if they were the law. Then when they lose in court they selectively
enforce the law as determined by the boundaries of that court. So if a regulation is
determined repeatedly to be illegal by a federal court in say New Hampshire, they
would stop enforcing their illegal regulation there but they would continue to enforce
it in Arizona and all other areas not within the territorial boundaries by that court.   

They are a bad and corrupt organization and they need to be abolished and a
different organization needs to take it's place with none of the old players in it.
Don't believe it? call and ask for tax advice from their "free taxpayer assistance
phone line"
They might recommend that you file married filing separately or
some other terrible advice.


I'm shocked :-) I work for a Federal Agency. Not the IRS. We have several former IRS employees that now work at my agency. Their description of the working conditions there were illuminating. Intense pressure due to under-manning and under-funding led to intense pressure for employees. To a man (and woman) they are all good people and employees. The high turnover rate leads to the hiring of under-trained employees. Especially in the front line customer service units. Due to its purpose the IRS will never be popular. I am for a simplified tax system. As long as it's fair. Whatever that means. :-) It may even involve scrapping the IRS altogether.


On a personal note when I was going through my divorce in the mid 2000's I got some great advice from an IRS employee that saved me some pretty big money. But, I will admit they were not a front line employee.



« Last Edit: August 27, 2016, 12:44:05 PM by BorisS »

Offline GuppyCaptain

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Re: US and taxation
« Reply #58 on: August 27, 2016, 12:05:19 PM »

Somebody ends up having to pay for everything from schools to bridges to the military...the highest earners are benefiting most and are taxed at a higher rate...the way it has to be.


Fathertime!

Bullshit. Please explain how the highest earners benefit the most?

Offline Boethius

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Re: US and taxation
« Reply #59 on: August 27, 2016, 12:31:02 PM »
High income earners receive more in government spending than do lower income or middle class taxpayers. There is a lot of research on this. However, in proportion to the tax they pay, they receive less.
After the fall of communism, the biggest mistake Boris Yeltsin's regime made was not to disband the KGB altogether. Instead it changed its name to the FSB and, to many observers, morphed into a gangster organisation, eventually headed by master criminal Vladimir Putin. - Gerard Batten

Offline Slumba

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Re: US and taxation
« Reply #60 on: August 27, 2016, 01:37:42 PM »
High income earners receive more in government spending than do lower income or middle class taxpayers. There is a lot of research on this. However, in proportion to the tax they pay, they receive less.


ummm, what exactly does this mean? 

Those under the middle class line get benefits of one kind or another; they are not net taxpayers (in USA).  Those at some level of middle class and higher, are net taxpayers.

e.g. calculations like this one:  http://www.zerohedge.com/article/entitlement-america-head-household-making-minimum-wage-has-more-disposable-income-family-mak
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Offline Boethius

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Re: US and taxation
« Reply #61 on: August 27, 2016, 03:40:58 PM »
I read academic papers in the area as part of my work. Zerohedge doesn't qualify.

Someone paying, say, $115,000 in tax may receive $85,000 in government benefits. Someone paying $15,000 in tax may receive $21,000 in government benefits. The first person receives more, but less in proportion to what he pays in tax.
After the fall of communism, the biggest mistake Boris Yeltsin's regime made was not to disband the KGB altogether. Instead it changed its name to the FSB and, to many observers, morphed into a gangster organisation, eventually headed by master criminal Vladimir Putin. - Gerard Batten

Offline GuppyCaptain

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Re: US and taxation
« Reply #62 on: August 27, 2016, 09:41:04 PM »

A flat Tax as some on the Far Right want, would only work if we also had income equality...

Why? A flat tax is the utter definition of "fairness". What could be more fair than everyone contributing THE SAME PROPORTION OF THEIR SALARIES?! Everyone contributed a tenth or a quarter or whatever amount it may be. That's "fair".

Income equality? You mean like extreme socialism? Is it now not PC for one person to earn more than the other?

Offline GuppyCaptain

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Re: US and taxation
« Reply #63 on: August 27, 2016, 09:45:29 PM »

If we want to reel in unearned dynasties a bit, we should have an inheritance tax at some point.  If we want people to advance on their own merit rather than being born into massive unearned wealth, then inheritance tax can help...just a bit.  Currently a married couple is able to exclude around 11 million prior to any tax.  I have no big problem with that because I feel it can do two things in theory.
1.  Help fund the govt.
2.  Put a stick in the spokes of at least some unearned wealth, and transfer it to the working folk.


Fathertime!

So a big inheritance is now "unearned wealth" and needs to be taxed heavily?! YHGTBSM!!!! You and your line of thinking have gone off the deep end.

Offline Boethius

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Re: US and taxation
« Reply #64 on: August 27, 2016, 10:01:42 PM »
Why? A flat tax is the utter definition of "fairness". What could be more fair than everyone contributing THE SAME PROPORTION OF THEIR SALARIES?! Everyone contributed a tenth or a quarter or whatever amount it may be. That's "fair".

Income equality? You mean like extreme socialism? Is it now not PC for one person to earn more than the other?

Flat taxes are regressive. Most tax policy experts reject them.

As capital and labour become more fluid, taxation may have to change. One proposal gaining some traction is progressive consumption taxes.
After the fall of communism, the biggest mistake Boris Yeltsin's regime made was not to disband the KGB altogether. Instead it changed its name to the FSB and, to many observers, morphed into a gangster organisation, eventually headed by master criminal Vladimir Putin. - Gerard Batten

Offline GuppyCaptain

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Re: US and taxation
« Reply #65 on: August 27, 2016, 10:06:51 PM »
Flat taxes are regressive. Most tax policy experts reject them.

As capital and labour become more fluid, taxation may have to change. One proposal gaining some traction is progressive consumption taxes.

How are they regressive? They are the epitome of fairness. I wholeheartedly agree with a consumption tax. Combine that with a flat tax and I think it's fair to all tax payers in that everyone gets taxed proportionately equally. For those with more disposable income to buy goods and services, they are taxed on the consumption of those goods and services.

Unfortunately, it won't happen as we have too many people in this country that think the well-off/rich need to be penalized for their success and their tax money needs to be the proverbial tit that feeds the low income earners and those that chose to sit on their ass and suck on the nipple of government handouts and programs.

I'm thinking somewhere else for retirement because this country's going to shit and will only continue to get worse in this sense.
« Last Edit: August 27, 2016, 10:14:33 PM by GuppyCaptain »

Offline Boethius

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Re: US and taxation
« Reply #66 on: August 27, 2016, 10:08:30 PM »
So a big inheritance is now "unearned wealth" and needs to be taxed heavily?! YHGTBSM!!!! You and your line of thinking have gone off the deep end.

There are a lot of wealthy capitalists, such as Bill Gates, David Shaw, George Soros, and John Sperling, who agree with FT. All are self made billionaires, though Gates did come from wealth.

After the fall of communism, the biggest mistake Boris Yeltsin's regime made was not to disband the KGB altogether. Instead it changed its name to the FSB and, to many observers, morphed into a gangster organisation, eventually headed by master criminal Vladimir Putin. - Gerard Batten

Offline fathertime

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Re: US and taxation
« Reply #67 on: August 27, 2016, 10:12:06 PM »
Bullshit. Please explain how the highest earners benefit the most?


Who are the ones with the big swimming pools, fancy women, fine cars, servants, etc etc?



So a big inheritance is now "unearned wealth" and needs to be taxed heavily?! YHGTBSM!!!! You and your line of thinking have gone off the deep end.
   Of course a big inheritance is UNEARNED WEALTH.  The child or other heir did not earn the money, so it is a given that it is unearned by the heir who would enjoy the fruits of the untaxed money.   


I suppose in a perfect world nothing would need to be taxed, all the bridges would build themselves, and all the schools and military would self-fund. Since that isn't the case, the taxes can start with YOU...if you want to pay extra, so a 100 million dollar child heir can receive the full 100 million instead of only 65 million that is your choice.  I think it better for the hard working of our society to pay a little less, and the heirs of the mega-wealthy to pay a little more. If you want to defend the mega-wealthy then you obviously can, but I think they will be more than ok regardless, and I want to see the wealth gap drop some, and will support polices that help that happen...because I think it is better for society as a whole.


Fathertime!   
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Offline Boethius

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Re: US and taxation
« Reply #68 on: August 27, 2016, 10:21:25 PM »
How are they regressive? They are the epitome of fairness. I wholeheartedly agree with a consumption tax. Combine that with a flat tax and I think it's fair to all tax payers in that everyone gets taxed proportionately equally. For those with more disposable income to buy goods and services, they are taxed on the consumption of those goods and services.

Unfortunately, it won't happen as we have too many people in this country that think the well-off/rich need to be penalized for their success and their tax money needs to be the proverbial tit that feeds the low income earners and those that chose to sit on their ass and suck on the nipple of government handouts and programs.
O
I'm thinking somewhere else for retirement because this country's going to shit and will only continue to get worse in this sense.

Flat taxes affect the poor disproportionately.

I live in a jurisdiction that, until recently, had a flat tax. It doesn't stimulate the economy and it is deleterious to stable government revenue.

Look at most low tax jurisdictions, and they are not great places to live if you are poor, old, or foreign and hence, not entitled to government programmes.
After the fall of communism, the biggest mistake Boris Yeltsin's regime made was not to disband the KGB altogether. Instead it changed its name to the FSB and, to many observers, morphed into a gangster organisation, eventually headed by master criminal Vladimir Putin. - Gerard Batten

Offline LiveFromUkraine

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Re: US and taxation
« Reply #69 on: August 27, 2016, 10:53:39 PM »
Guppy, I was originally against the death tax.  Only until I saw how some of these wealthy people use their resources to meddle in politics, immigration, etc..  that I changed my mind.

Take a look at the Soro's leaks if you need examples. 

It's not good for society to allow a small amount of people to pass down that type of wealth from generation to generation.  We aren't talking about wealth in itself but the power that comes with that type of wealth.



I look at this as a monopoly.  There are good reasons why monopolies are bad for our society and therefore illegal. 
« Last Edit: August 27, 2016, 10:59:40 PM by LiveFromUkraine »

Offline Darth_Budda

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Re: US and taxation
« Reply #70 on: August 28, 2016, 05:54:27 AM »
Why? A flat tax is the utter definition of "fairness". What could be more fair than everyone contributing THE SAME PROPORTION OF THEIR SALARIES?! Everyone contributed a tenth or a quarter or whatever amount it may be. That's "fair".

Income equality? You mean like extreme socialism? Is it now not PC for one person to earn more than the other?

I am a Socialist/Communist...
I believe either through the Ballot or the Gun.. Oligarchs will be destroyed...

Humans do not need Kings or oligarchs to run their lives...

Their is enough resources in the universe, all humans should be able to live a dignified life.

The rich benefit most from taxes in general..
The taxes pay for the military..
the military protects their global investments...
On top of all the other benefits the rich get. Like Special treatment for crimes...
Poor people go to jail.. Rich people pay a fine...

Regardless of your political ideology.. 

These times are a changing.....

 
We need a government of action to fight for working families!
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Offline GuppyCaptain

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Re: US and taxation
« Reply #71 on: August 28, 2016, 09:31:28 AM »
I am a Socialist/Communist...

 

You lost me with that right there. Everything afterwards sounded to me like that schoolteacher in Charlie Brown  ::)

Offline Slumba

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Re: US and taxation
« Reply #72 on: August 28, 2016, 09:40:04 AM »
There are a lot of wealthy capitalists, such as Bill Gates, David Shaw, George Soros, and John Sperling, who agree with FT. All are self made billionaires, though Gates did come from wealth.

And they will never have to worry about estate taxes because they themselves, have set up legal methods to avoid such taxes.

Tell me again, how much estate taxes have the Rothschilds, all based in EU or UK, paid?
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Offline fathertime

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Re: US and taxation
« Reply #73 on: August 28, 2016, 11:17:19 AM »
And they will never have to worry about estate taxes because they themselves, have set up legal methods to avoid such taxes.

Tell me again, how much estate taxes have the Rothschilds, all based in EU or UK, paid?


The mega wealthy have helped make the Estate tax less effective than it should be.  It still produces some revenue for the government though.  If the mega rich weren't able to have so much influence on the estate tax it would likely produce more revenue, and as LFU mentioned it could reduce the monopoly they have on making our laws, to their benefit. 

For now it affects around 1 in 500 estates, and it only takes on average around 1/6th of the estate.  So it isn't very significant even for those that do get hit. 


Fathertime!   
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Offline Boethius

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Re: US and taxation
« Reply #74 on: August 28, 2016, 11:38:36 AM »
And they will never have to worry about estate taxes because they themselves, have set up legal methods to avoid such taxes.

Tell me again, how much estate taxes have the Rothschilds, all based in EU or UK, paid?


Since the amount of tax an individual pays is private, we can't know how much has been paid in taxes by the Rothschilds.


The wealthy do pay tax, even with tax planning.  Tax planning can minimize the tax they pay, but it won't eliminate it, particularly not for a billionaire, unless he/she gives the bulk of his/her estate to charity.


Given the size of the US exemption (over $5 million currently), which means most Americans are not going to pay an estate tax, I don't understand this knee jerk resistance to this tax.
After the fall of communism, the biggest mistake Boris Yeltsin's regime made was not to disband the KGB altogether. Instead it changed its name to the FSB and, to many observers, morphed into a gangster organisation, eventually headed by master criminal Vladimir Putin. - Gerard Batten

 

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