Novosibirsk Doesn't Believe in Tears: TwoBit's Sixteen Days In Novosibirsk

[dogspot]

TwoBit,

First off, excellent TR. Reads like a book.

I spent a month there in Novosibirsk this past winter so your description of the locations, along with Jooky's recommendations, all make me long to return. My fiancee is from there (she recently moved to SPb) so I am certain I will have the opportunity to be there during the warmer months on future visits.

I also think it's cool that you have taken the time to learn the language. This has also become an interest of mine over the past year and even more so over the past few months. I am determined to be able to hold conversation with my future mother in law (a great woman who speaks no English). My lady speaks excellent English and loves learning more from our daily communication. Likewise, she not only appreciates my desire to learn her native tongue, but she tutors me for an hour a day via Skype. This has added a fantastic new demention to our relationship (although she can be pretty hard on me and my pronunciation). It seems that your love of language might also drive you to find a lady who has similar desires as you in this regard. Which brings me to this question: Do you hope to find a woman who speaks English? Is it important that she has a desire to learn or, if she already has English abilitites, to improve by communicating with you?

Thanks again for sharing abut your time on the ground in Novosib. I hope you enjoy your time there and best of luck finding your future Mrs. TwoBit

[ML]

If a man writes to 1000 ladies on his 1st trip, then what will he do if the 1st trip is not successful?   Write back to the same 1000 ladies and tell them he is sorry they were not one of his 1st round draft choices, but he would like to meet her on his 2nd trip?

Seems like it would be better to start earlier, write 20 letters at a time to the ladies you like best, until you have enough for your 1st trip.  Leave the others for your 2nd or 3rd trip...

That is not the way it works.  Two Bit did it exactly right.  There are many dead profiles on these sites.  The response rate can be anywhere from 5 to 20%.  So you have to start very big, get a few responses, narrow  them down (they will also narrow you down) and end up with a reasonable number to meet.

[ML]

 I still need to figure out what happened to Anastassia from yesterday.  After digging through all my emails and notes, I figured it out: I put the wrong number in my cell phone number for Anastassia!  I entered Anastassia’s name but used Yulia’s phone number.  

It takes good organizational skill to pull off a VM trip.  You  lucked out this time; it could have been a disaster, the type where you lose both gals!!  :-)

I don’t say anything about moving it from 7, I’m just like “Let’s meet at 8 by the Lenin statue on Lenin’s Square”.  

Anastassia doesn’t question why I didn’t contact her yesterday and agrees to meet at 3 pm.

Good ploy.  Many of the folks in FSU aren't that much into keeping absolute schedules/times, so this helped you in the instance at hand.

I don’t know why she’s asking, she’s knows the answer and she’s just being catty.

Yes, she is, after all, a woman.

I meet Anastassia at 3 pm.  I had a great email exchange with her: her writing was interesting and she was quite educated.  Right as soon as I meet her, though, I sense that something is just “off” about her.  

So then you were thanking your stars you weren't on a VO trip.

[Seeker]

I personally wouldn't want to deal with the stress of TwoBit's adventure.  But we each know our own limits and what we can feel comfortable with, and what we feel in control of.

My next visit is in less than a month.  I am doing the WNVN type of approach.  So far at least.  I guess I prefer to be a tourist in awe of the history and culture. 

If someone comes along that fits with me I am not going to send her home.  And I am open to suggestions (in another thread, not TwoBit's)

But I am not sure I could deal with the stress of what you are doing.  And I am a logical person.  The schedule wouldn't be my problem.  For me it would be the feelings.  I am a romantic too.

But we each choose our own path, and know what we are comfortable with.  Good luck to you TwoBit.  I hope it goes well for you.

[I/O]

So, I am officially a dumbass.

Simply a juggler in a VM circus dropping a ball. It happens.

[TwoBitBandit]

Which brings me to this question: Do you hope to find a woman who speaks English? Is it important that she has a desire to learn or, if she already has English abilitites, to improve by communicating with you?

I think it would be cool to find someone that spoke English, but it's not in my top ten list of qualities.  I do care about intelligence, though.  My thinking is that anyone with above-average intelligence can become fluent in another language given enough time.

[Misha]

It can be done, but it can take years and it can make culture shock that much more difficult to bear.

[Blues Fairy]

I think it would be cool to find someone that spoke English, but it's not in my top ten list of qualities.  I do care about intelligence, though.  My thinking is that anyone with above-average intelligence can become fluent in another language given enough time.

I've know quite a few very intelligent people with zero language aptitude. The powers of abstract thinking, though paramount in language learning, do not guarantee success.  Musical ear and good memory are better guarantees - though not 100% either.  

[Sculpto]

TBB.. excellent report!

Your comments about keeping them guessing etc and establishing value.. right on the money... absolutely gold stuff..

Having game and knowing when to use it is absolutely critical..

[TwoBitBandit]

Elena (date from last night) sent me an SMS this morning asking if I made it home OK.  Then on mamba she sent me this message

Хотела сказать, что мне действительно было очень приятно удивиться и познакомиться с тобой! Ты очень приятный и интересный человек!

(Translation: I wanted to say that it was really interesting to see and get acquainted with you.  You're an very pleasant and interesting person.)

It was kind of surprising.  It was pleasant enough to spend time with her and the conversation was interesting, but she seemed not to be that attracted to me.  I didn't pick up any of the signs I normally look for like flirtatious eye contact, playing with her hair and various objects, downward-looking/submissive eyes, licking her lips, touching me, brushing my hand, etc.  Did I misread the situation, and she's attracted but just not "flamboyantly flirtatious"?  Is she just bored this week and fishing for a date just for something to do?  Or is she stringing me along just for amusement?  Or maybe she's just got that "New York Female Lawyer" sort of agro attitude toward dating?

It's one of the challenges to dating in another culture.  Even though I've spent a fair amount of time in the FSU, the girls here are sometimes a little more difficult to read than ones in my own culture.

What do y'all think?

[I/O]

What do y'all think?

What I think (FWIW) is, the rot I've heard constantly preached for years about you being left in no doubt if a RW is into you is just that, rot. Don't throw the baby out with the bath water.

[SMS60]

What do y'all think?

TR is good and interesting. But I have to ask one question.

Where do you find the desire to post on a forum while on vacation? I dont get it. So many women to meet and activities to do. Why sit around typing on a computer?

[Blues Fairy]

Did I misread the situation, and she's attracted but just not "flamboyantly flirtatious"?  

Quite possibly. People are different; on our first face-to-face meeting, my husband avoided eye contact almost the entire day; later he told me he had found me very beautiful and was afraid to stare too much.   

[ML]

My thinking is that anyone with above-average intelligence can become fluent in another language given enough time.

I have heard/read that there is an inverse relationship between intelligence and ability to learn a foreign language (other things such as age held constant).
Something about those who can think most logically have trouble because many language rules are illogical.

[ML]

 It was pleasant enough to spend time with her and the conversation was interesting, but she seemed not to be that attracted to me.  
It's one of the challenges to dating in another culture.  Even though I've spent a fair amount of time in the FSU, the girls here are sometimes a little more difficult to read than ones in my own culture.

We all know that first dates are a real crap shoot.  And it can happen within our own culture also.  So I wouldn't place too much emphasis on what happens on a first daste; unless the person were quite rude, had some odd habit you could never accept (picking nose in public, etc.!).  I have had some 'so, so' first dates that later warmed up quite a bit.

If any time at all in your schedule, don't pass up chance for second date with a gal who sends you such a message.

[ML]

I personally wouldn't want to deal with the stress of TwoBit's adventure.  But we each know our own limits and what we can feel comfortable with, and what we feel in control of.

On my VM trip to Kharkiv, I experienced no stress at all.
It is all a function of a person's ability to multi-task, etc.
Some can, some can't.

A good supervisor in charge of a large department with many subordinates involved in wide ranging projects has to do this type of juggling on a daily basis.

[Daveman]

Well, the trip is to find out if there's anyone worth the effort of continuing communication, right?

If you were one of those guys attempting to come out of a trip with a fiancée then this lady probably wouldn't work out.  Part of  'having game' (that phrase always cracks me up) is the ability to recognize personality types/quirks.  She may not be into you at all... but then again...She may be shy, nervous, aloof and analytical, feel strange because she knows (intuitively) that she's one meeting of many, needs time and space to think and become comfortable in her own way without feeling pressure to turn an acquaintance into an intimate acquaintance at the initial meeting. 

My answer would be her follow up messages could be merely polite, or it could be a sign of genuine interest in you as a person and perhaps more.  A few more dates with her won't kill your schedule and would give her a little time to relax and then you'll see/know more.  Go with your gut.  If you like her, then have a couple more meetings with her. If you really get the feeling that she's not into you, then move on and don't waste time with her.

[ML]

My answer would be her follow up messages could be merely polite,

That concept is unknown to FSU people who are really not interested in you.

[Gator]

Simply a juggler in a VM circus dropping a ball. It happens.

My nomination for Best Description of the Year.

[Gator]

I've know quite a few very intelligent people with zero language aptitude.

One of the best speakers I have heard was an Iranian with Level 3 of 5 English.  His choice of simple words in combination with timing and feeling were impeccable, and far more compelling than my next meeting with an arrogant Oxford grad.  What a contrast.

[Gator]

I didn't pick up any of the signs I normally look for like flirtatious eye contact, playing with her hair and various objects, downward-looking/submissive eyes, licking her lips, touching me, brushing my hand, etc.  Did I misread the situation...What do y'all think?

My opinion is that you have been:  a) reading too many "How to" books and b) thinking too much. 

She simply may be smart enough to realize that she is just one woman of many on your long dance card.  So why get revved up.

What does you gut say?  It craves for more, yes, because I recall that you liked this woman for some reason.  Learn more by spending more time with her.  Just one more dance will not hurt. 

If you do dance again, I would not be shy about asking her.  Then she says she likes you and she wants to spend more time with you!   You like her too.  And then you squirm because this destroys your juggling plan.  How you can fit her in?   And you wonder what if you start really liking her!  What about all these unknown women waiting for me to show up?  Ain't love grand!

[TwoBitBandit]

TR is good and interesting. But I have to ask one question.  Where do you find the desire to post on a forum while on vacation? I dont get it. So many women to meet and activities to do. Why sit around typing on a computer?

You can't date girls 24 hours a day.  (If it was possible, I'd probably try it!  It sounds like fun!)  You can't date girls at twenty minutes after midnight (like it is now) or at 8 am.  Most of them work, so you can't really meet them before 5pm or 6pm.  The only hours realistically available for dating most women are 5pm-10pm on weekdays, and 1pm to midnight on weekends.  Even on the weekends, evening dates are more romantic and give you a better frame.

Writing a trip report once a day between midnight and 1:00 am is actually helpful.  It helps me collect me thoughts and chill out a little bit.

[TwoBitBandit]

I have heard/read that there is an inverse relationship between intelligence and ability to learn a foreign language (other things such as age held constant).  Something about those who can think most logically have trouble because many language rules are illogical.

Coming from a lower middle class family, I was in the unfortunate position of having to put myself through college.  Fortunately, due to some fluke of nature, I was gifted with an IQ of 141 and a high aptitude for mathematics.  (I took calculus when I was a sophomore in high school and aced it.)  To put myself through school in my first year, I took a position as a work-study tutor in math.  I had predicted that my hardest task would have to explain how to apply Green's Theorem (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green's_theorem) or how to integrate a product of sines and cosines.  The truth was that all the students that had reached second-semester calculus were smart enough to figure that stuff out on their own.  The hardest thing I had to do was to explain to a liberal arts major that when you multiplied two negatives you got a positive.  I remember her counter-argument: "Wouldn't multiplying two negative numbers be even MORE negative?"

It was then that it dawned on me that everyone's mind didn't work like mine.

Even though Russian grammar is complicated and has lots of exceptions, it makes sense to me.  I can tell you why you say "я видел двух солдат" and "я видел двадцать два солдата" but not "я видел двадцати двух солдат".  I can tell you about all sorts of obscure rules of Russian grammar: about why the prefix не- can be combined into one word with passive past-tense participles but not with adjectives, and why you can't use verbal adverbs to combine two clauses with different subjects.  But I realize that not everyone can do that.

I've know quite a few very intelligent people with zero language aptitude. The powers of abstract thinking, though paramount in language learning, do not guarantee success.  Musical ear and good memory are better guarantees - though not 100% either.

I don't have a good memory at all.  I make up for my weak memory with discipline and lots of flash cards.  (My weak point in Russian is in vocabulary, but my grammar is very accurate.)  Trying to figure out where the F I put my car keys and cell phone is a daily ritual with me.

I don't have a musical ear at all.  I've been taking ballroom dance lessons and one of my biggest problems is that I can't figure out the timing in music unless it has a lot of drums.  I can't really hear the soft sign in Russian: I have to figure out the different between мат and мать and лож and ложь through context, and can't pronounce the difference at all.  I can't ever pronounce a work that starts with ц correctly: nobody understands me when I try to say царь.  Words that start with ж are also difficult, I have to say that letter like I'm constipated... otherwise I pronounce it like з.

Nevertheless spent four hours on a date with a girl talking only in Russian with 95% comprehension and I've awed people with my knowledge of Russian. Russians know that their language is difficult, and many people have told me that they've never met a foreigner that speaks as well as me.  So, it's not just memory and musical ear, although I agree that those things are helpful and they'd help me if I had them.

At first I thought that people who can't learn another language are simply lazy.  But I'm also aware that I have unusually high aptitudes in some areas, and not everyone can do what I do.  (lest anyone think I'm boastful, I suck at lots of things, and especially at hand-eye coordination...)  I know a woman who teaches Russian full-time at the Defense Language Institute in Monterey, California.  She says that some people, no matter how hard they try, simply can't learn another language.  There is a required aptitude for learning a language well, especially a difficult one like Russian, but I don't know how you can characterize what is required.

[TwoBitBandit]

My opinion is that you have been:  a) reading too many "How to" books and b) thinking too much. 

She simply may be smart enough to realize that she is just one woman of many on your long dance card.  So why get revved up.

What does you gut say?  It craves for more, yes, because I recall that you liked this woman for some reason.  Learn more by spending more time with her.  Just one more dance will not hurt. 

If you do dance again, I would not be shy about asking her.  Then she says she likes you and she wants to spend more time with you!   You like her too.  And then you squirm because this destroys your juggling plan.  How you can fit her in?   And you wonder what if you start really liking her!  What about all these unknown women waiting for me to show up?  Ain't love grand!

Thanks Gator and everyone else who responded to my question.  I probably will try to meet her again.

I have a rule with women, which is this: I always trust my intuition.  Every time I've run into a big incompatibility with a woman, I always had an intuition about it beforehand and ignored it.  The problem is with this particular woman I'm drawing a blank... which is unusual for me.

[Blues Fairy]

There is a required aptitude for learning a language well, especially a difficult one like Russian, but I don't know how you can characterize what is required.

Nobody really knows.  The area on the frontal lobe that controls language development is only the size of a credit card, and ALL the languages you'll ever learn will be concentrated there.  It's still unclear how it's correlated with overall intelligence.  I suppose targeting intelligent women is a benefit in itself, good language aptitude being a welcome bonus.