Russian Women Discussion

RWD News From the Front => Ukrainian Front Discussion => Topic started by: JayH on October 19, 2017, 05:25:48 PM

Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: JayH on October 19, 2017, 05:25:48 PM
  The battle for Ukraine to extract itself out of the Soviet Union has continued long after the disintegration of the FSU  as Soviet Russia and Putin's kleptocracy has fought to maintain control and influence over Ukraine.Ukrainians fought a bloody battle on the streets of Kyiv and now in  an ongoing war in eastern Ukraine in the desire for freedom and a democracy.

  My fundamental observation is contained in this sentence  quote "Ukrainian civil society has reason to be proud of what it has accomplished to date."end quote .The question some still ask is "what has changed"? Well-- a lot has changed- but progress is still too slow -- a point most agree on.

  Progress in Ukraine is clearly discernible on many fronts, but it is in danger. Incomplete reforms threaten to undermine the credibility of ‘new forces’ and lead to the disillusionment of millions of Ukrainians. This would open the way for revanchist and populist forces to hijack Ukraine’s transformation agenda.


  Nearly four years on from its Euromaidan revolution, Ukraine is fighting for survival as an independent and viable state.

   This report makes the case for increased Western support, and argues the EU has been too timid in applying its unprecedented political mandate to drive forward post-2014 reforms in the country.                   

  The report, which includes policy recommendations, assesses Ukraine’s position and prospects, and examines its double existential threat: resisting Russian interference, and the fierce internal contest to determine its own political, institutional and civic future.     

  The report covers six critical areas: geopolitics and security in the context of the conflict with Russia; European integration and the demands of the Association Agreement; economic reform; governance, democratization and the media; the role of civil society in reforms; and efforts to combat corruption.   

The Struggle for Ukraine

http://www.chathamhouse.org/sites/files/chathamhouse/publications/research/2017-10-18-struggle-for-ukraine-ash-gunn-lough-lutsevych-nixey-sherr-wolczuk.pdf

http://www.chathamhouse.org/publication/struggle-for-ukraine

http://f1.media.brightcove.com/7/2848955551001/2848955551001_5600139110001_5600112311001.mp4?pubId=2848955551001&videoId=5600112311001

A quick read summary of issues is here--


Five Things to Know about the Problems Facing Ukraine


(1) Ukraine is currently fighting two separate battles.

(2) Seven per cent of Ukraine’s internationally recognized territory has either been annexed by Russia or is controlled by pro-Russian separatists.

(3) Ukraine has struggled to weaken the grip of vested interests and establish a rules-based market economy domestically.

(4) The outcome of Ukraine’s protracted domestic battle with corruption will ultimately define its future.

(5) The Euromaidan protest in late 2013 was triggered by the Ukrainian government’s suspension of plans for closer integration with the EU.




http://medium.com/chatham-house/five-things-to-know-about-the-problems-facing-ukraine-27c2b22f5074


The struggle for Ukraine: a detailed analysis of reform and failure after Euromaidan


Ukraine’s principal challenges
1. Security and defense

2. Reforms. Eurointegration

3 Economic reforms

4 Democratization and governance

5 Human capital and civil society

6 Anti-corruption reforms

Recommendations

To strengthen security,To advance EU integration,To boost economic and political reform,



http://euromaidanpress.com/2017/10/20/the-struggle-for-ukraine-a-detailed-analysis-of-reform-and-failure-after-1991/
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: JayH on October 20, 2017, 06:42:36 PM
I have linked this article here because it is a summary of some history that led to much of the content of the above articles.
This is quite a good summary in such a short space.
Russia’s attitude has roots in the revolution — and in the famine that killed 13 percent of Ukrainians.


Why does Putin want to control Ukraine? Ask Stalin.



In 2014, Russian officials looked with horror at the young people waving European flags and calling for democracy in Kiev’s Maidan Square and were determined to make sure such a movement would never spread to Russia itself: A mass anti-corruption protest — particularly one that ends with occupation of the dictator’s palace — is what Russia’s corrupt oligarchs fear most. Putin witnessed exactly that kind of “chaos” as a young KGB officer in Dresden in 1989, when the fall of the Berlin Wall struck him as catastrophic. He now blames protests against him on “foreign agents” and Hillary Clinton.

But the need to control Ukraine also has important roots in Russia’s historical memory, and the KGB’s. Turbulence in Ukraine hits panic buttons, because anarchy in the Soviet Union’s agricultural heartland has nearly destabilized Moscow more than once. Perhaps the best way to explain Putin’s paranoia and covetousness toward Kiev is this: Russia remembers those moments well.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/why-does-putin-want-control-ukraine-ask-stalin/2017/10/20/800a7afe-b427-11e7-a908-a3470754bbb9_story.html?hpid=hp_no-name_opinion-card-f%3Ahomepage%2Fstory&utm_term=.85cc61a6d83d

http://www.kyivpost.com/article/opinion/op-ed/anne-applebaum-putin-want-control-ukraine-ask-stalin.html

If you have a problem reading the previous links-- it should be possible to read in full here ---

http://www.cetusnews.com/news/Perspective-%7C-Why-does-Putin-want-control-Ukraine--Ask-Stalin-.SkgypvuBFw6Z.html

Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: jone on October 20, 2017, 07:04:06 PM
I have linked this article here because it is a summary of some history that led to much of the content of the above articles.
This is quite a good summary in such a short space.
Russia’s attitude has roots in the revolution — and in the famine that killed 13 percent of Ukrainians.


Why does Putin want to control Ukraine? Ask Stalin.



In 2014, Russian officials looked with horror at the young people waving European flags and calling for democracy in Kiev’s Maidan Square and were determined to make sure such a movement would never spread to Russia itself: A mass anti-corruption protest — particularly one that ends with occupation of the dictator’s palace — is what Russia’s corrupt oligarchs fear most. Putin witnessed exactly that kind of “chaos” as a young KGB officer in Dresden in 1989, when the fall of the Berlin Wall struck him as catastrophic. He now blames protests against him on “foreign agents” and Hillary Clinton.

But the need to control Ukraine also has important roots in Russia’s historical memory, and the KGB’s. Turbulence in Ukraine hits panic buttons, because anarchy in the Soviet Union’s agricultural heartland has nearly destabilized Moscow more than once. Perhaps the best way to explain Putin’s paranoia and covetousness toward Kiev is this: Russia remembers those moments well.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/why-does-putin-want-control-ukraine-ask-stalin/2017/10/20/800a7afe-b427-11e7-a908-a3470754bbb9_story.html?hpid=hp_no-name_opinion-card-f%3Ahomepage%2Fstory&utm_term=.85cc61a6d83d

http://www.kyivpost.com/article/opinion/op-ed/anne-applebaum-putin-want-control-ukraine-ask-stalin.html

If you have a problem reading the previous links-- it should be possible to read in full here ---

http://www.cetusnews.com/news/Perspective-%7C-Why-does-Putin-want-control-Ukraine--Ask-Stalin-.SkgypvuBFw6Z.html

Putin controls 'part' of Ukraine.  At a tremendous cost.  But he has permanently driven a wedge between the Ukrainian and the Russian peoples.  The only way Ukraine would ever ally with Russia is if the country was forced to through subjugation.

I would be interested in knowing, if anyone could provide the numbers - the economic output of the Donbas before the war and presently.   And, the cost (or drain) on the Russian economy by Krim.  Brent Crude is now at $57 a barrel.  But the major oil producers are predicting 2018 as having a significant drop in prices again, with Brent Crude hovering around $45. 

Russia mortgaged its economy in the oil sale to China.  It continues on, with infrastructure and economic development suffering.  At the same time, Putin continues to invest heavily in military spending, last week proclaiming that he had the best weapons in the world.  Of course, one of the only true items of export, aside from Russian oil is Russian weapons.  Quite honestly, my take is that the Israelis have the best military technology in the world, presently.  Economic and efficient.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: JayH on October 25, 2017, 03:39:28 PM

The elephant in the room for all issues in Ukraine is Russia. The battle to get Russia out of Ukraine is ongoing -- and not just the battle for physical territory in eastern Ukraine and the Crimea.
Russia is intent on preventing Ukraine succeeding as a democracy .

Why Ukraine’s Next Revolution Won’t Be on the Streets

But the run-up to the 2019 elections will be troublesome. Russian meddling in Ukraine’s political system is growing. “I see a heightened crisis in Ukraine because [Poroshenko] has decided to take on [Dmytro] Firtash,” he said. Firtash has worked closely with the Kremlin. “There is a serious criminal investigation [into Firtash] by the general prosecutor. And [Firtash] is funneling serious money to political rivals to undermine Poroshenko.”


This is an extension of the Kremlin’s 2014 strategy designed to reverse the Revolution of Dignity and prevent it from spreading. “Moscow wants to create a neo-Russian republic in eastern and southern Ukraine as a '[blockage] to the Maidan,” he said.

http://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/ukrainealert/why-ukraine-s-next-revolution-won-t-be-on-the-streets
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Brasscasing on December 13, 2017, 06:24:07 PM
There ya go, Jay...

Canadian arms makers get OK to sell to Ukraine

..."The Liberal cabinet has given the green light for Canadian defence contractors to sell weapons to Ukraine in a watershed decision which a senior official of that country hopes will influence the Trump administration to follow suit.

The embattled eastern European country has been added to Canada's automatic firearms country control list."...

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/canada-ukraine-weapons-1.4446891

Better late than never, I guess.

Whether it actually happens or not is a different story. The current federal government is notorious for saying one thing and doing another, but we'll see.

Brass
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: JayH on January 18, 2018, 05:38:26 PM

This is quite an interesting read. It touches the various issues and is quite a good summary.

The alienation of Ukrainians and the bleak prospects for rebranding them as “Little Russians” belie the notion of Russian success in Ukraine.

Little Hope for “Little Russia”

Current analysis of Russian foreign policy largely depicts—whether with approbation or anxiety—a Kremlin going from strength to strength. With a grab-bag of low-cost, low-risk measures, Russia has reputedly confounded the West, exacerbating our internal divisions, interfering in our elections, and in some cases perhaps even affecting the outcome. Moscow has supposedly snatched Georgia and Ukraine from the clutches of NATO, seized the initiative throughout the Middle East, and enhanced Russian positions in virtually every corner of the globe. Ah, how quaint now sound the recent dismissals of Russia as just a regional power, or “a gas station masquerading as a country!” The Russians have risen from their knees, and we suddenly perceive with alarm that they are ten feet tall.

However, this vision of a rising—or rampaging—Russia needs a serious rethinking at least as far as Moscow’s goals in Ukraine are concerned. The assessment of Russian success in Ukraine is largely rooted in two suppositions: a) that Russian military interventions in Ukraine (as well as in Georgia in 2008) are long-overdue comeuppance for past NATO enlargement and just punishment for Western perfidy; and b) that Russian military action was required to thwart a Western plot to pull Ukraine into NATO in 2014, and prevented the emergence of a serious long-term threat to Russian security.

Neither of these suppositions makes any sense.


http://www.the-american-interest.com/2018/01/17/little-hope-little-russia/
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: BillyB on January 18, 2018, 05:47:26 PM



That's the big headline for today Jay? You're slipping. Ukraine just passed a bill to get the occupied regions back. Russia says it's a violation of the Minsk peace accords. Back to war?




http://www.yahoo.com/news/ukrainian-parliament-passes-bill-occupied-territories-121358340.html
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: msmob on January 19, 2018, 03:18:27 AM


That's the big headline for today Jay? You're slipping. Ukraine just passed a bill to get the occupied regions back.

NO, they haven't .. the Headline is misleading

1/ It re-iterates that the regions under 'rebel control' are 'occupied'

2/ It does not rule out the use of military force

Funnily enough Russia thinks as you do ;)

http://www.rt.com/politics/416319-ukraine-minsk-deal-donbas-russia/ (http://www.rt.com/politics/416319-ukraine-minsk-deal-donbas-russia/)

"New Kiev  law marks shift ‘from sabotage to burial’ on Minsk deal – Russian senator"
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: JayH on February 01, 2018, 04:41:05 PM
This is an assessment that I mostly agree with --please read the whole article  and not just the sample included.
I accept that many Americans here do not like Trump being criticised -- but what is going on in America right now ( & for the last 18 months)  is playing right into Putin's hands. The Russian international strategies have and are working way beyond any expectation.
  Obama sat on his hands over his last 4 years and never recognised the immense threat of Russia -- certainly Obama fiddled at the edges --the mistake was he totally underestimated Russia and it's intent.
  Now --Trump does nothing about Russia ( certainly nothing of any real consequence) -- it is a HUGE mistake.
The clock is ticking.


How Ukraine can build an army to beat Putin

Putin must destroy Ukraine as it exists now. To leave it intact is to destroy himself and his ambitions. He must win because of his war crimes: the mass graves, the torture in Donbas and Crimea, and the MH17 shootdown. All will put him firmly into The Hague as a war criminal. He must win because Ukraine is flourishing as a nation and it shows him as a failure. He must win because the truth will destroy him and Russia.

Putin must invade or subdue Ukraine. He is not yet ready, but the evidence of his preparation is stark. He continues to reinforce, fight and kill in the Donbas. He continues to test new equipment, people and methods in Syria. He reinforces Crimea. He reinforces Kaliningrad to block Western reinforcement. He stockpiles equipment in Belarus. He continues to reequip the army, especially with tanks and modern technological systems. All this is far beyond any peacetime needs. He spends precious national money on the military he needs elsewhere. He continues to train for a strategic war in the west – which means Ukraine cannot escape this and will be a prime target. The Russian MOD says openly in the media that they need three more years to reequip the army in western Russia with tanks and to train troops. This time must not be wasted by Ukraine.


http://www.kyivpost.com/article/opinion/op-ed/glen-grant-ukraine-can-build-army-beat-putin.html
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Anotherkiwi on February 01, 2018, 05:03:55 PM
That's a terrific article by someone who really knows what he's talking about - it's well worth the time taken to read it.  Also, there are a couple of extremely well-written comments from people who obviously have military experience.

Thanks, Jay!  :thumbsup:
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: JayH on February 01, 2018, 05:25:02 PM
That's a terrific article by someone who really knows what he's talking about - it's well worth the time taken to read it.  Also, there are a couple of extremely well-written comments from people who obviously have military experience.

Thanks, Jay!  :thumbsup:

Agree --there is a lot in it.
Generally speaking -I like to see the "big picture" fix in anything I do -- and not waste too much time on putting a finger in   the dyke! Ukraine was left no choice but to deal with immediate "small picture" issues first.The time comes to change gear -- and that is now.

One of the many plus points made in article is about younger battle experienced officers be put in command of fighting troops.That is in contrast with how it was back in early 2014 when seniority and rank was THE only factor.  I have seen first hand  how good and respected the younger new generation of leadership is received  -- both my the men they command -- and  as the reports filter back to their home towns( or based city/towns) the reception given on return from the east tells the story.

The morale of Ukrainian troops is now high -- and that must be used to advantage.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: kynrazor on February 01, 2018, 06:52:27 PM
Putin must destroy Ukraine as it exists now. To leave it intact is to destroy himself and his ambitions. He must win because of his war crimes: the mass graves, the torture in Donbas and Crimea, and the MH17 shootdown. All will put him firmly into The Hague as a war criminal. He must win because Ukraine is flourishing as a nation and it shows him as a failure. He must win because the truth will destroy him and Russia.

I thought Putin's intention was to prevent Ukraine's accession to the EU? In that case he's already largely succeeded.

If his intention was to declare war on Ukraine, that would be wasting Russia's already strained economic resources and I do not see how it's possible to win such a conventional war anyway. At best it will be a war of attrition for Russia. Double stupid.

Putin must invade or subdue Ukraine. He is not yet ready, but the evidence of his preparation is stark. He continues to reinforce, fight and kill in the Donbas. He continues to test new equipment, people and methods in Syria. He reinforces Crimea. He reinforces Kaliningrad to block Western reinforcement. He stockpiles equipment in Belarus. He continues to reequip the army, especially with tanks and modern technological systems. All this is far beyond any peacetime needs. He spends precious national money on the military he needs elsewhere. He continues to train for a strategic war in the west – which means Ukraine cannot escape this and will be a prime target. The Russian MOD says openly in the media that they need three more years to reequip the army in western Russia with tanks and to train troops. This time must not be wasted by Ukraine.

More like he's modernising the Russian military as he rightly should. Defending Russia and neutralising insurrections has always been very expensive as they have had too vast amounts of land and not enough mobile troops to properly cover it.

And on top of this, they've been distracted by the Syrian adventure, are still retro-modernising their aging military assets, still has yet to successfully establish their own silicon valley, with majority of their universities having inadequate funding and producing mostly sub-par scientific research (vital for military industrial powerhouse), etc etc.

Despite all this, you still think Russia has the appetite to conquer Ukraine? Seriously?

Unless the Russian Government has lost all sense of rationality, this is probably not going to happen.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: BillyB on February 01, 2018, 07:37:11 PM
I thought Putin's intention was to prevent Ukraine's accession to the EU? In that case he's already largely succeeded.



Putin decided to play a long game. He's being patient. He'll continue to destabilize Ukraine hurting it's economy. People will be disillusioned that a Pro Western Ukrainian president can get the job done. Russian propaganda will have some effect. In time, the Ukrainian people will eventually vote in another guy Putin can buy.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: jone on February 01, 2018, 07:55:37 PM
I would not be surprised to see a substantial investment by Western powers into Ukrainian infrastructure.  While it is a risk, it is one that would thwart Putin.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: JayH on March 22, 2018, 08:58:38 PM
A summary point I have been making --enable Ukraine not only to defend itself, but also to rescue Europe


How the US Can Shore Up Ukraine’s Vulnerabilities in the Black Sea

Given Putin’s widening of the war against the West, it should be clear that multi-dimensional resistance to his efforts must be increased lest he continue to believe that he need merely push against the West to expose its weakness and ensure a Russian victory. The ideas advanced here should become part of a new program to enable Ukraine not only to defend itself, but also to rescue Europe by its example.

http://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/ukrainealert/how-the-us-can-shore-up-ukraine-s-vulnerabilities-in-the-black-sea
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: JayH on March 22, 2018, 09:14:53 PM
I would not be surprised to see a substantial investment by Western powers into Ukrainian infrastructure.  While it is a risk, it is one that would thwart Putin.

There has been via the IMF   and  increased and increasing private investment over this last 4 years . I wrote 4 years ago how much was changing post Maidan -- and the rate of change is accelerating. There are so many positive indicators now --it is almost exciting.

That said ,it is been a hell of a time for everyday Ukrainians with huge leaps in costs of utilities ( at the behest of the IMF) - but--  considerable ground work has been happening that will be a foundation for future growth.
The biggest problem and hurdle that MUST be addressed  --is the ongoing corruption at the highest levels. Somehow --Ukraine needs to put the structure in place for a zero tolerance  approach to ending corruption.

Unfortunately -- with American leadership mute & hamstrung ( see-I said something nice about Trump!) over dealing with Russia -- there is an opportunity going begging. I would tie military and political aid & support from the US ( & EU) to internal reforms on corruption   ie guarantee Ukrainian independence if Ukraine can join western standards  of management of the country.

By far the easiest way to deal with Russia for the west--is to ensure a free & democratic Ukraine  succeeds as a democracy. The pressure that will apply to Putin's Russian kleptocracy would be immense from within Russia --once Russians see what is possible.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: tfcrew on April 09, 2018, 06:53:11 PM
Quote
The war in Ukraine is more devastating than you know
 by Cynthia Buckley, Ralph Clem, Jarod Fox and Erik Herron  April 9 at 7:00 AM
The fighting in eastern Ukraine’s Donbas region is entering its fifth year. More than 10,000 people have been killed in this persistent conflict; 2,800 were civilians. Nearly two million people have been internally displaced or put at risk if they remain in their homes.Today, the Donbas war is among the worst humanitarian crises in the world, with frequent attacks occurring from both sides across the oblasts (provinces) of Donetsk and Luhansk. Before the war, this compact, heavily urbanized and industrialized region held nearly 15 percent of Ukraine’s population (6.6 million) and generated 16 percent of its gross domestic product. (http://www.beratergruppe-ukraine.de/download/TN/TN_04_2014_en.pdf) Now it’s a war zone. And our research has documented that, as its hospitals and medical facilities are destroyed — perhaps even targeted — its citizens are being deprived of basic health-care services, echoing Syria’s .....
http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/monkey-cage/wp/2018/04/09/the-war-in-ukraine-is-more-devastating-than-you-know/


 
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: krimster2 on April 09, 2018, 07:30:12 PM
live map here

http://ukrstream.tv/en/liveuamap

lot of activity around Mariupol today, yesterday 2 Russian armored brigades entered southern Ukraine from the east so the pretense of the Russian army not officially being there is no longer being "played" 

my nephew's iphone still has him stationed in Rostov so his brigade is not on the move yet

which card will Putin play first, Syria or Ukraine, I'm predicting that one will be a distraction for the other...
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: krimster2 on April 09, 2018, 09:59:58 PM
when Putin makes his move on Ukraine he will also take the remainder of Republic of Georgia and Atlantic Richfield's Pipe-line
simultaneous attack north from Krim, west from Donbas, East from Transnistria to Odessa South towards Kiev
at least one will be a diversion
I think everything east of the dnipro will be seized along with southern Ukraine
the war will last less than 2 weeks and involve the entire Russian military
there will be a "major event" that triggers the invasion...

afterwards a new potsdam to divvy up Ukraine
should Western Ukraine continue as an independent nation or be absorbed by its neighbors
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: msmob on April 09, 2018, 10:47:23 PM
live map here

http://ukrstream.tv/en/liveuamap

lot of activity around Mariupol today, yesterday 2 Russian armored brigades entered southern Ukraine from the east so the pretense of the Russian army not officially being there is no longer being "played" 

my nephew's iphone still has him stationed in Rostov so his brigade is not on the move yet

which card will Putin play first, Syria or Ukraine, I'm predicting that one will be a distraction for the other...

The OSCE monitoring mission is strangely silent on this.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: krimster2 on April 10, 2018, 12:03:53 AM
their positions are too far away for them to directly observe the U/R border where they cross
haven't seen their press reports regarding secondary sources of info...

my sources from within the Russian military tell me Russia has been gearing up for a "blizkrieg" on Ukraine for quite some time
Putin's window of opportunity is exactly the length of time that Trump is in office...

Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: JayH on April 10, 2018, 01:16:24 AM
live map here

http://ukrstream.tv/en/liveuamap

lot of activity around Mariupol today, yesterday 2 Russian armored brigades entered southern Ukraine from the east so the pretense of the Russian army not officially being there is no longer being "played" 



They did not actually enter Ukraine.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: JayH on April 15, 2018, 11:38:05 AM
Russia's imperialistic attitude towards independent Ukraine has turned an instinctive ally into an aggrieved adversary - and Vladimir Putin must personally accept much of the responsibility for the collapse of Kremlin influence in Moscow's traditional geopolitical heartlands


Russian retreat from Ukraine is a tale of unforced Kremlin errors and self-defeating imperial hubris

The ultimate example of Russia’s tone-deaf approach to Ukraine came in spring 2014, when Kremlin efforts to partition the country via hybrid military intervention left Moscow’s influence on Ukrainian affairs at historic lows and Putin's dreams of a new Eurasian empire in tatters. This blunder was to prove the final nail in the coffin of Russia’s Ukraine policy, but it was very much in line with all that had gone before. The decision to engineer pro-Russian uprisings inside Ukraine in early 2014 reflected Moscow's long-held but deluded belief that Russian-speaking Ukrainians would flock to the Kremlin banner when the time was right. It was the culmination of Russia's refusal since 1991 to recognize the nation-building dynamics at work in independent Ukraine.

Remarkably, Russia remains apparently incapable of learning from these failures. In early March 2018, the Kremlin once more succeeded in briefly uniting Ukrainian society against it. On this latest occasion, Moscow abruptly cut gas supplies to the country at a time when temperatures were averaging minus fifteen degrees. Ordinary Ukrainians responded to the emergency by rallying round and dramatically reducing their energy consumption. This allowed the population to survive unscathed, but many will remember how close Russia’s actions brought them to potential humanitarian catastrophe. Yet again, Moscow demonstrated its unrivaled ability to mobilize the Ukrainian population while simultaneously shooting itself in the foot.

It is hard to avoid the conclusion that for reasons rooted in its own sense of national identity, modern Russia simply cannot accept the idea of an independent Ukraine. This would go some way towards explaining Moscow’s otherwise irrational refusal to treat Ukraine as a fully sovereign nation, despite the obviously detrimental effect such posturing has had on Russian influence. It would also help make sense of Russia’s apparent need to belittle Ukrainian statehood aspirations while depicting Ukrainian patriotism as an extremist menace


http://bunews.com.ua/opinion/item/opinion-russian-retreat-from-ukraine-is-a-tale-of-unforced-kremlin-errors-and-self-defeating-imperial-hubris
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: alex330 on May 07, 2018, 09:07:49 AM
How Ukraine can build an army to beat Putin

Ukraine can develop new weaponry with funding from countries like Saudi Arabia....

http://www.defense-aerospace.com/articles-view/release/3/189623/ukraine-releases-more-data-on-hrim_2-srbm.html (http://www.defense-aerospace.com/articles-view/release/3/189623/ukraine-releases-more-data-on-hrim_2-srbm.html)

Putin better hurry up....
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: krimster2 on May 07, 2018, 09:40:24 AM
<krimster2>
daily departures from NAS Sigonella, Italy, multiple USAF Northrop Grumman RQ-4B (10-2043) with super advanced AI optics flying surveillance mission over eastern Ukraine

stay sharp boyz!!!


big build-up!!! on both sides!!!!

is it for show?
or will Putin “break bad” again?

if Trump is impeached, will Putin attack eastern Ukraine in force?
is the media campaign in Russia assuring Russians that when they’re disconnected from SWIFT that “all will be well”, part of the information campaign for this war?

Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: alex330 on May 19, 2018, 12:38:09 PM


The Ukrainian naval infantry will in many ways follow the United States Marine Corps as the most perfect model for long-term development.


“From my point of view, the U.S. Marine Corps is undoubtedly the best trained and most combat potent element of the U.S. military, which is able to wage the 5th and the 6th generation warfare – not only on the ground, but also offshore, in the air, and so on.”


http://www.kyivpost.com/ukraine-politics/general-yuriy-sodol-marines-bring-hope-ukraines-naval-revival.html




Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: krimster2 on May 19, 2018, 12:41:00 PM
we're going to need a lot more monuments for dead soldiers in Ukraine
a whole lot more...



Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: alex330 on May 19, 2018, 12:43:58 PM
At least they erect monuments rather than hide their dead in shame.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: alex330 on May 26, 2018, 09:10:12 PM
The Ukrainian Armed Forces conducted their first live-fire test of the Javelin anti-tank missile system provided by the United States as part of its defense aid package to the country.

http://youtu.be/yVM2SUmoxAY

http://www.kyivpost.com/ukraine-politics/ukraines-armed-forces-test-javelins-video.html (http://www.kyivpost.com/ukraine-politics/ukraines-armed-forces-test-javelins-video.html)
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: krimster2 on May 27, 2018, 06:34:05 AM
unfortunately, as part of the deal
javelins have to be stored in special "monitored" facilities
so they don't end up on the black market in the middle east
there are facilities for this
one's in kharkov
i know where they are
Russians know where they
when the kakashka goes down, those monitored facilties are all gonna be rubble in the first 3 min

so back to RPGS

Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: JayH on April 28, 2019, 12:42:28 PM
Another  Mc standing up for Ukraine

America Must Stand with Ukraine Against Russia[/b]

Michael McCaul: Washington should increase foreign military sales and security assistance to Ukraine.




http://nationalinterest.org/feature/america-must-stand-ukraine-against-russia-54437
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: JayH on September 20, 2019, 07:23:26 PM

In Ukraine, They  Sing a Lullaby that Gives Russians the Creeps


Ukrainian sense of sefl is stronger than ever.

On September 19, 2019, on social media  pages of some Ukrainian volunteers, bloggers, and activists featured pictures with a concise caption, “SLEEP,” which was drawn in red on the background of a heap of coal.

 It turned out that these pictures came from a new video by a Ukrainian singer, Anastasiya Shevchenko, and that video, based on her song, “A Lullaby for an Enemy,” not only touched the hearts of Ukrainians but also sent shivers down the spine of Russians.

 It is interesting that in the past, Anastasiya Shevchenko was a fighter and a paramedic of the Third Company of the Battalion number one of the Ukrainian Kulchytsky National Guard.

“Deep in my soul, I feel pity for our enemies. When you see people, who come to die in some other people’s land, then you understand just how badly they live in their own.
It is easier for them to sleep forever in other people’s land than to survive in theirs.

That’s why today I sing this lullaby for the enemy,” – wrote Anastasiya .
In their comments to the video, many viewers wrote that this is very heart-rending and powerful, and that it sounds like a spell or a black magic.

“Very strong. Makes you almost shiver. One can make this into a horror video and put it on at the demarcation line in the Donbas,” wrote one YouTube user.

“It’s even more than shivers down one’s spine. Every nerve and every little hair on your body reacts to this. Very, very strong!” – said another listener.

“It’s only us Ukrainians who can call our enemies воріженьки (the diminutive form of a noun, the way one calls a small child) and sing a lullaby to them when we kill them. Ukrainians are my amazing nation, talented, musical, and worthy of a better living. One feels electricity spreading over the skin when one listens to this woman sing. Glory to Ukraine!” – yet another listener stressed.

The song does sound like a spell in Ukrainian. Yet, specifically for Russians, the video has subtitles in red, which resemble traces of blood on the black coal of the Donbas. If you liked this “lullaby,” please, forward a link to this song to the Russian occupiers of Ukraine. Let them listen to it and then sleep for all eternity.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=4&v=40WD9RDAMVc


http://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=4&v=40WD9RDAMVc


“Year after year
I sing this lullaby to you
Obey my word
Sleep

I pity you, my enemy
Pity that you chose to walk down this road
You walk toward your death like a lunatic
Sleep

Leave your anger and leave your fatigue
There is no more need
You will drown forever in your sleep
Sleep

You will sleep forever in this cold soil
To you, it will be like this womb of mine
You are my captive forever
Sleep

You wanted this land
Now mix with it
You are my land now
Sleep

One Can Make This into a Horror Video and Put It on at the Demarcation Line”

http://informnapalm.org/en/in-ukraine-they-began-to-sing-a-lullaby-that-gives-russians-creeps-a-video/
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: krimster2 on September 20, 2019, 08:15:33 PM
yes, I make up silly stories!
like the silly story of Zelensky working on behalf of Kolomoisky...

that’s crazy!!!

so please explain this photo, taken 10 days ago in Ukraine...
please explain why the former head of the NBU is being physically attacked at both home and abroad, AND for what reason....

http://www.kyivpost.com/ukraine-politics/ex-nbu-head-gontareva-decries-persecution-after-arson-attack-hit-and-run.html

http://www.kyivpost.com/ukraine-politics/house-of-ex-nbu-head-gontareva-burned-down-in-molotov-cocktail-attack.html

Putin has put pressure on Trump to go after Kolomoisky’s assets in the USA...
to put pressure on Kolomoisky....

instead of being in jail Kolomoisky is working out a deal over Privatbank with  Zelensky!!!
he is going to have the bank returned to him!!!!!  it’s already 90% negotiated
he is going to give up in oil company in return!!!!!

http://www.ft.com/content/beddb1cc-d885-11e9-8f9b-77216ebe1f17

Kolomoisky wants the ex-head of the NBU OUT OF THE WAY
to do his Cyprus syphon extortion SCHEME all over again!!!!! 
ask Wilbur Ross how that one works!

when the house of cards collapses, Russian political engineering is waiting....
to start crying “zhids”!!!!!   zhids!!! they crashed the economy!!!!!!
hundreds of titushki begin attacking synagogs and Jews in the street...
Jews ask for international help
Russian army is in Odessa in 100 hours after crossing border
to save Ukraine from fascists!
game over. man..


ahahahahahahahahaha

because I will have a Russian Passport tovarish, and will be registered at a prestigious address in Moscva...
and you on the other hand are going to have to start going to Moldova from then on JayJay!!!
and leave malenkaya Rossiya to me, horrosho!

hope you remembered the dingo treats when you went grocery shopping...
must SUCK to have to do your own shopping and cooking and stuff like that, HUH? 
I, on the other hand, have a whole bunch of women EAGER to serve me...




Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Boethius on September 22, 2019, 02:15:44 PM
http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=22223.msg517990#msg517990 (http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=22223.msg517990#msg517990)


The "propaganda" for Ukraine is so strong, she has to sing it in Russian.


This post was composed without the aid of google.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: ML on September 22, 2019, 02:27:07 PM


 “A Lullaby for an Enemy,” not only touched the hearts of Ukrainians but also sent shivers down the spine of Russians.

Sorry, but there is probably nothing that Ukraine or Ukrainians can do that will send shivers down spine of Russians.

Only hope would have been if Ukraine had kept nuclear weapons.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: krimster2 on September 22, 2019, 03:17:55 PM
so a couple of months after the military director of the battalions commits suicide
Zelensky withdraws all of the military force the battalions had stationed in the East...

a month ago Zelensky replaced the Prime Minister who was also Jewish, with a non-Jew
to turn it down a notch

too many Jews will make the soup unappealing to Goy tastes...

everyone’s just waiting for Putin to make the call, the military is 100% ready!
if Trump is not re-elected then Putin’s window shuts next November...
Nord Stream will be ready by then...

the collapse of the current western liberal attitude in Ukraine
will occur after the collapse of Ukraine, and Ukraine will shift far right to Russia
if you are Ukrainian, what can you put your faith and hopes in?
there will be only one thing Tovarisch...
and things are gonna go back to the way they’ve always been
and always will be in little Russia
Ukrainians are to Russians
what the Irish are to the English...
a hardy breed of serfs...


Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: ML on September 22, 2019, 04:25:15 PM
Ukrainians are to Russians what the Irish are to the English... a hardy breed of serfs...

Actually serfdom was more prevalent in Russia than in Ukraine.
A consequence of the much richer farm land in Ukraine.

This also was a cause of the Holodomor directed at Ukrainians because they were more resistant to
communism and collective farming than most other parts of the growing Soviet Union.
They were more resistant because they had a class of well to do (relatively) farmers (kulaks) who had never been serfs, unlike the widespread surfdom in Russia.
The kulaks were separated into three categories: those to be killed immediately, those to be sent to prison, and those to be deported to Siberia or Russia Asia.

Russians are more accepting of centralized control and even dictatorship because of their history of being serfs.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: krimster2 on September 22, 2019, 04:39:17 PM
some would disagree with what you wrote, and some wouldn't
here's a short reference regarding Ukrainian peasantry

http://www.encyclopediaofukraine.com/display.asp?linkpath=pages%5CS%5CE%5CSerfdom.htm

the village where I established Rancho Del Krimster, was a former Soviet agricultural workers village
like a migrant workers camp but on a permanent basis
people who lived here were second class citizens in the Soviet Union
you can do WTF you want here and everyone will be too scared to complain about it!!!

one of my wife's relatives was arrested for being a kulak in the soviet period, because he owned a chandelier and two cows!
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: msmob on September 22, 2019, 10:33:39 PM



This also was a cause of the Holodomor directed at Ukrainians

Except that the 'Holodomor' decimated populations in what is / was clearly Russia...

Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: JayH on September 23, 2019, 12:16:07 AM
Except that the 'Holodomor' decimated populations in what is / was clearly Russia...

Oh?
It is one thing playing the forums fool to get attention -- but joining that nonsense about the Holodomor   just shows what a complete and utter idiot you are.

Summary says Soviet propaganda-- but clearly RUSSIAN PROPAGANDA. There has been a mountain of material posted on this forum   about the Holodomor in UKRAINE and the act of genocide against the people of Ukraine.

Denial of the Holodomor

Denial of the Holodomor is the assertion that the 1932–1933 Holodomor, a man-made[1] famine in Soviet Ukraine,[2] did not occur[3][4][5][6] or diminishing the scale and significance of the famine.[7] This denial and suppression of information about the famine was made in official Soviet propaganda from the very beginning until the 1980s.


 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denial_of_the_Holodomor
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: msmob on September 23, 2019, 01:06:20 AM
Are the Kuban or Smolenskaya oblast in Ukraine, JayH?

I only ask as one of Russian partner's Grandparents were from these parts of RUSSIA and also suffered extreme hunger, hardship property confiscation during the same period...

The 'Holodomour' was NOT confined to what is modern day Ukraine..though that SSR was the worst effected.

'Foolish' is your near constant copying and pasting of stuff without checking authenticity or suggesting 'untruths' when you simply prove you are clueless.

I am simply pointing out that not only Ukrainians suffered..adding sawdust to bulk out potato mash.

Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: krimster2 on September 23, 2019, 06:25:26 AM
jayH, WTF man?
were you were staring at the toilette flushing in the wrong direction again?

Mobers is 100% correct, Holodomor, was very prevalent in southern Russia
but in Russia, we pronounce it Golodomor

at the same time, Stalin had another mass starvation under way primarily in Russia
that involved shutting down factories which resulted in workers losing their ration cards
and sharing the same fate

mobers wasn't denying holodomor, horrosho
but you were SAYING he was
which is a VERY old Soviet "trick"

very clever...
but, not clever enough.....

jayh, why do you beg us to beat you all the time?
I assume you're a masochist and you enjoy our torment
why else would you come here and make these pitiful embarrassing attempts to challenge us
which ALWAYS end in your complete and total humiliation
please tell me the undoubtedly sad and tragic tale of WHY do you keep doing this

i'm all ooshkie cobber!
start from the beginning...



Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Boethius on September 23, 2019, 12:07:27 PM
No, Holodomor was coined for, and is used specifically for the mass murder of millions of Ukrainian peasants.  It is restricted to starvation in Ukraine, Kuban, and the Don region.  All these regions were, at the time, populated predominantly by ethnic Ukrainians.  The term "Holodomor" was first used by diaspora Ukrainians.

There were other regions that suffered collectivization and mass starvation as well, including the Northern Caucasus, the Volga Region, the South Urals, Western Siberia, and Kazakhstan.  All of these areas also were heavily populated by ethnic Ukrainians, although they are not part of the Holodomor. 

This post was composed without the aid of google.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: krimster2 on September 23, 2019, 02:15:09 PM
the Golodomor was a part of the wider Soviet famine of 1932–33...
it was a part of the same “greater” famine

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_famine_of_1932%E2%80%9333

anyway, what everyone in Russia tells me is that it’s all propaganda spread by provokateurs
because Stalin was a strong leader, strong like stalnoy, who saved the Soviet Union from Fascism...
and strong leaders are good!
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Boethius on September 23, 2019, 02:28:44 PM
No, the Holodomor is specific to the regions I mentioned.  There are hundreds of scholarly articles written on this, many of which describe the event as a genocide of the Ukrainian people.  I am not certain it was an intended as a genocide, my views on this have fluctuated, but at this time, there is no definitive proof, historically, one way or the other. 


This post was composed without the aid of google.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: krimster2 on September 23, 2019, 07:09:50 PM
I suspect that to the victims, our opinions are of absolutely no importance...
 
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Boethius on September 23, 2019, 08:27:06 PM
Hmm, I'm not so certain.  I've known dozens of victims, some of whom are still alive.  The attitude toward the event differs among those who stayed in Ukraine, and diaspora survivors.  However, the acknowledgment and remembrance of their suffering is something that resonates with them.


This post was composed without the aid of google.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: ML on September 23, 2019, 10:04:27 PM
Wife tells of ancestors who survived Holodomor by eating mostly honey and onions.
Those who came to confiscate grains, potatoes, vegetables, fruits and any other food didn't bother with the onions and didn't know about the honey.

They also went to railroad tracks because sometimes passengers would throw them pieces of bread.

Each time the confiscators came to take any grains, etc., they would exclaim . . .

"Why are you still alive!!"
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: krimster2 on September 24, 2019, 05:27:53 AM
I admit to a sloppy linguistic practice of affixing my own unique labels to things...
I don't call school shootings, "School Shootings", I call them"Columbines"
same thing with Russian famines....
I don't call it "The Great Soviet Famine of 1932-1933" which the Golodomor was a part of...
I just call it Golodomor, sloppy, yes, I know....
apologies for any hurt feelings   

famines
pogroms
war
genocide
financial collapse

let the good times roll Ukraine


Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Boethius on September 24, 2019, 12:55:53 PM
It's Holodomor.  The letter "ґ" was removed from the Ukrainian alphabet under Soviet policies of Russification, replaced by the Russian "г" sound.  In Ukrainian, "г" has an "h" sound, not a "g" sound.  Russified Ukrainians don't know this either. 


This post was composed without the aid of google.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: krimster2 on September 24, 2019, 01:29:00 PM
oichen manoga things Russified Ukrainians don't know, eta pravda!!!
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: ML on September 26, 2019, 10:57:19 AM
Distinguished President, Your Excellencies, Ladies and Gentlemen!

On behalf of Ukraine, I congratulate you, Mr. President, on having been elected President of the 74th session of the UN General Assembly. Ukraine supports the implementation of all ambitious priorities of this year's Assembly.

Let us be honest, everyone present here has different interests, views, values and problems. But there is one thing that unites us all. Each of you, ladies and gentlemen, had the first speech from this rostrum.

Please recall your feelings at that moment. Every one of you, respected and honored today, was once a beginner yet a sincere world politician. And then, a cocktail of pragmatism, skepticism and harsh geopolitical reality has not yet managed to quench your passion, romanticism and unwavering belief that the world can be changed for the better.

Remember how important it was to tell the problems and troubles of your country and your people to the world back then. How important it was to be heard.

I have the same feelings today.

Let me tell you one story. The story of a person for whom "being heard" has become the meaning of life. For this man had a divine voice. He was called one of the best baritones and countertenors in the world. His voice was heard at Carnegie Hall in New York, Notre Dame Cathedral, Covent Garden in London and Grand Opera in Paris. Each of you could have personally heard his incredible singing. But unfortunately, there is one thing that will not allow you to do so. I’ll show you. It looks like this. 12.7 millimeters that not only stopped his career, but also stopped his life. It costs 10 dollars. And, unfortunately, today on our planet it is the value of human life.

There are thousands of such stories, millions of such bullets. Welcome to the XXI century. A century of opportunities. Where instead of "being heard" you have an opportunity to be killed.

The name of the man I’ve told you about was Wassyl Slipak. He was a Ukrainian, a soloist of the Paris National Opera who was killed in Donbas defending Ukraine from the Russian aggression.

The war in Donbas has already lasted five years and five years have passed since Russia annexed the Ukrainian peninsula of Crimea. Despite the existence of international law and hundreds of organizations designed to defend it, our country defends its own sovereignty and territorial integrity with weapons in its hands and losing its citizens.

More than 13 thousand people killed. 30 thousand wounded. One and a half million people were forced to leave their homes. Every year, these monstrous numbers are heard here, but with one correction - every year these numbers get bigger.

The end of the war, the return of all the occupied Ukrainian territories and the prevailing of peace are my tasks. But not at the cost of our citizens' lives, not at the cost of freedom or the right of Ukraine to its own choice.

That is why we need the support of the world. I understand: everyone present here has their own state concern and other people's problems should not worry you more than your own. But in today's world, where we live, there is no longer someone else’s war. None of you can feel safe when there is a war in Ukraine, when there is a war in Europe.

And it can be fatal to think that this does not concern you and will never affect you. You can't think of the global and close your eyes to the details or, as it may seem, even trifles. Because that's how the foundation for the two world wars was laid. And tens of millions of human lives became the price of inattention, silence, inaction or unwillingness to sacrifice one's ambitions. Have humanity started to forget these dreadful lessons of history?

Ukraine remembers them. And Ukraine has always demonstrated its willingness to provide peace in a civilized way. And took steps towards international security. For example, when it gave up its nuclear capability, which at the time was larger than in the UK, France and China combined.

Because it seemed to us that we were all building a different, new world. Where you do not need to have a nuclear weapon to be heard. Where you will be respected for deeds, not for nuclear warheads.

After all, in this "new" world, our country has lost part of its territories and is losing its citizens almost daily.

That is why, if not Ukraine than who has the right to speak today about the need to rethink and revise current world rules?

Of course, we do not question the authority of international institutions, in particular the United Nations. But we must admit that the mechanisms are not flawless. They start failing and therefore need an update

United Nations. But let's be honest - are nations really united today? And even if so, what exactly unites them?

Disasters and wars.

We always hear calls for fair change, just promises, announcement of new initiatives from this highest platform in the world. It is time to make sure that they are always backed by real deeds. Because in the modern world, where the human life costs 10 dollars, words have been devalued long ago.

Let us remember the goal of the UN’s establishment in 1945? To maintain and strengthen peace and international security. But what shall we do when the very basis of international security is at stake?

For any war today - in Ukraine, Syria, Libya, Yemen or any other corner of the planet, regardless of the number of casualties - is the greatest threat to the entire civilization. Because in 2019, homo sapiens still resolves conflicts by killing. Throughout its existence, humanity has been constantly finding new ways to overcome distance, transfer information, cure diseases.

And only one thing remains unchanged: contradictions between nations and states are still resolved not by words, but by missiles.

Not by word. But by war.

Don't think that war is far away. Its methods, technology and weapons have made our planet not so big anymore. And today, the time I spent on the last paragraph is enough to destroy the Earth completely.

This means that each leader is responsible not only for the fate of his own country, but also for the fate of the whole world. In my opinion, we all need to realize that a strong leader is not the one who, without batting an eyelid, sends thousands of soldiers to death. A strong leader is the one who protects everyone's life.

Now let us answer ourselves - what do our meetings give to humanity? If for someone it is only a political theater where they play a role and declare light intentions, which are then crossed out by dark actions?

It's not just a rostrum. And not a scene. And seven and a half billion inhabitants of the planet are not just spectators, but direct participants in real life. The basics of this life scenario are laid here. And today it depends on everyone present whether it will be life at all.

Honestly, I would really like to call this speech “15 minutes that changed the world”. But I am well aware that changing something that has existed for thousands of years is simply impossible in 15 minutes. And behavioral theories say that war is an integral part of human nature. But the world is changing and people are changing with it. And if we once learned writing, mathematics, invented the wheel, penicillin and conquered space, humanity still has a chance.

Being aware of danger for civilization, we must generate other meanings. And fight for a new human mentality where aggression, anger and hatred will be atrophied feelings.

Ladies and Gentlemen! On this day, September 25, Erich Maria Remarque died. And 90 years ago the world saw his novel “All Quiet on the Western Front”. I recall the words from its preface: "This is an attempt to tell about a generation crippled by war. About those who fell victim to it, even fleeing shells". And 90 years ago the world saw another novel. It's Ernest Hemingway's "A Farewell to Arms". Here's a quote from it: “War cannot be won by victories. The one who wins the war never stops fighting…”.

The world must remember: every next crippled generation is a path to a new war. Which is impossible, just impossible to win with victories.

Someone says now: “There will be no World War III. It will be the last one”. I hope this phrase is an awareness of the threat to the planet, not an announcement.

Thank you!
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: msmob on September 27, 2019, 04:41:06 PM
The former actor continues to impress me.


Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Boethius on September 27, 2019, 04:49:43 PM
Why are you impressed by someone who has installed all of Kolomoisky's people to the levers of power in Ukraine?


This post was composed without the aid of google.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: JayH on September 27, 2019, 04:59:16 PM
Why are you impressed by someone who has installed all of Kolomoisky's people to the levers of power in Ukraine?


This post was composed without the aid of google.

Like too much in this world-it is about compromise (s)
He is doing a lot right --he has the peoples mandate and needs to run with it.

His handling of Trump was outstanding -- sucking up and not offending in a really tricky situation for him and Ukraine.

That said --I  am thinking so far so good-- but I want to see real results and reforms.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: krimster2 on September 27, 2019, 06:05:18 PM
"the former actor continues to impress me."

what do you mean "former"?

seriously, how do you rob 5 billion dollars from a country the size of Ukraine (kolomoisky/privatbank)...
and not only do you NOT go to jail!!!
but instead, the government bails out the bank
AND GIVES IT BACK TO YOU AGAIN!!!!!

CHIVO bela malchick?
what cho talkin 'bout Willis?

Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Boethius on September 27, 2019, 08:21:25 PM
Like too much in this world-it is about compromise (s)
He is doing a lot right --he has the peoples mandate and needs to run with it.

His handling of Trump was outstanding -- sucking up and not offending in a really tricky situation for him and Ukraine.

That said --I  am thinking so far so good-- but I want to see real results and reforms.


Zelensky is there to enrich himself, just like all the other past presidents.


The only person who truly knows what he wants is Kolomoisky.  He now controls the SBU.  He is trying to legalize his wealth, which is why he returned from exile in Israel, where he couldn't be extradited back to Ukraine. 


There was a photo last week of a meeting of Zelensky and his top ministers, with Kolomoisky beside Zelensky, like the cat that just ate the canary.  I am not optimistic.


This post was composed without the aid of google.



Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: krimster2 on October 07, 2019, 08:12:18 AM
Dear Readers!


Ukraine is not dead yet!!
but...
Molly K. McKew  says we oughta call a Priest...

so don't y'all forget now! Donbas coal is gonna be called Novo Russiya coal in about another year or so...
please make all the necessary changes to your lexicons, spossiba!

http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2019/10/06/putin-trump-zelensky-phone-call-229243

told y'all this was comin' now didn't I?

and now from Krimster Maps prepared especially for our esteemed Readers!


this map well help our Dear Readers familiarize themselves with the pipelines BEFORE they start hearing about them on the news!!!

Say What?
the latest scuttlebut is shutting off gas to Ukraine at the end of 2020....
Ukraine can re-route some gas from Poland and Romania, but only get about 50% of it's needs
and it would lose 3 billion/yr in gas transit fees, plus hundreds of millions in stolen gas, all lost...
that transit fee represents 3% of GDP, shutting off 50% gas supply could shrink the economy another 20% in a matter of months....

then....

PrivatBank and the NBU implode!!!!

then...

oh...
and Right Sector is planning a coup at this very moment while the anti-capitulation protests are going on!!!!

Putin is already at the 50% point for launching "The Operation" the biggest use of military force by Russia since WWII to liberate Kiev from fascists....
biggest variable is Trump...
and fear of a Democratic Presidential backlash

Ukraine military is so weak in the East, that if Russia launched a full attack the size of its last military exercise against Ukraine...
it would be 24 hours at most before Kyiv and ODESSA (the main target!) fell....

GUESS WHAT???

In a couple of more years, y'all are gonna be spelling Kiev again!!!!!!
ahahahahahahahahaha


average age of Ukrainian soldier in the East is 40!!!!
young Ukrainians are NOT signing up for this war!!!!
there's almost NO support among the young...
EXCEPT...
for the "battalions"

BUT...
the GRU assassinated its military leader to replace him with a pro-Russian puppet
and Zelensky used him to withdraw all the battalions from Novo Russiya
now Zelensky has agreed to hand over Novo Russiya to Russia...

so Novo Russiya will either end up like Transnistria or be eventually incorporated into Russian territory like Georgia in 2008 and Crimea in 2014
either way, huge step forward for Putin!!!!
BUT, I don't believe this will be the end of the story...
DO YOU?
ahahahahahaha!!!!!

I told y'all that Putin was the rude beast slouching towards Bethlehem, would you see it...
because, folks, he ain't gonna stop after Ukraine....
in 2024, they make him king...
Emperor of The Russian Federation
and he founds a new state recognized  aristocratic class based on hereditary oligarchy
he does this to gain the votes in the Duma to be king
and everyone in "all the Russias" bow down to their new lords and masters

foreigners in Ukraine, you'd best be gone before the shooting starts...
because when it does, all air and rail will be shutdown on the first day...

please find one of the safety passes that are posted on walls and billboards
and present it and yourself to the nearest anti-fascist coalition soldier
please remember to have your passport handy









Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: krimster2 on October 14, 2019, 10:19:56 AM
dear Readers!

do not be distracted by all the press in the Western Media a few weeks from now about the meeting between Jarred Kushner, Rick Perry and Ukraine President Zelensky in Brussels...

it’s a distraction....
but...
when it’s revealed that it was the USA that pressured Zelensky for the Steinmeier formula
and then later it will be revealed that Putin pushed Trump to do this...
it will further undermine Ukrainian popular support for Zelensky...

BUT...
the MOST IMPORTANT thing is happening this week in Kyiv!!!
yeah Kyiv!!!!

this week a judge will decide if kolomoisky has Privat Bank returned to him...
this is WHAT’S IMPORTANT!
because Putin’s plan will ONLY work if kolomoisky has the bank returned to him...

and once again, I gotta say, "Putin is a gawd damned genuis"!

http://www.kyivpost.com/business/lawyers-say-judge-hearing-privatbank-case-heavily-biased-in-favor-of-kolomoisky.html

since it’s pretty much a done deal...
then I guess everyone will just have to take kolomoisky's word that he won’t start looting Privat Bank or the NBU next month...

BUT...
if he does, then it’s one step away from “GAME OVER!” for Ukraine....
to save it from fascism that erupts in the chaos of economic collapse
oh the horrors being perpetrated by Russian paid titushki and prvocateurs...

AND THE BEAUTY OF IT!!!!
NO RESCUE WILL BE COMING FROM THE WEST this time!!!....

UKRAINE IS JUST LAYING THERE, WAITING FOR PUTIN TO TAKE IT!!!!!

HE’S COMING!!!!

the recent exercise showed that Russian units were mixed in with an exercise that took place on the Belarus border with Ukraine...

see the helpful diagram
=================================================================
ATTENTION! EVERYONE TO GET FROM STREET!

In the case of anti-fascist liberation forces coming to your neighborhood in Ukraine and you’re a Western tourist, I’d recommend the following:

Forget about trying to leave, airports, rail, major roads will all be shutdown in the first few hours.
The border cross-points will be dangerous because many will be mined and booby trapped...
So stay put!!!

I would have your suitcase packed and be ready to quickly evacuate.....
if you have a passport, hold it clearly in your hand and approach the nearest anti-fascist coalition soldier and you will be safely escorted to your embassy

in the case of heavy artillery attacks DO NOT shelter inside Ukrainian apartments, especially basements, they’re death traps, it’ll be months before someone will dig your body out...
instead, scout around in the immediate vicinity where you live for an emergency bunker, like a drain-pipe for instance...

Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: jone on October 14, 2019, 10:44:06 AM
Can I put my pop-up Ukrainian doll in my suitcase?
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: krimster2 on October 14, 2019, 05:01:05 PM
what I'd certainly DO if I were you man, I mean if you TRULY care....
is go to a welding shop that does TIG welding and score a small tank of helium for about $100 or so...
inflate your seks kukla with the helium...
and just LET HER GO MAN!!!!
LET HER BE FREE!!!!!

do this and you will be soaring in the clouds with her
set your seks kukla free....

We got seks kuklas in the corn flour, seks kuklas in the corn
seks kuklas in the bedroom,  seks kuklas in the barn
We got seks kuklas drivin' Cadillacs to Washington Dee Sea
When I set my seks kuklas free

yeeee- haaaaaaa!!!!

now speakin just for me and some people from Tennessee
we got a thing or two to tell ya'll
this lady may have stumbled, but she ain't NEVER fell!
and if the RUSSIANS, they don't like it...
they can all go STRAIGHT TO HELL!

hahahahahahahahaha!!!!!! dumb phuque Yankees got PLAYED!!!!
hard to imagine anyone dumber...
they STILL haven't caught on to the CON!!!
but they will SOON learn about it....
but OOPS!!!
too late!!!!
hahahahahaha!!!





Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: krimster2 on October 17, 2019, 07:08:50 AM
today the court in Kyiv deferred its finding to this instead
case No. 826/7432/17

http://www.ukrinform.net/rubric-economy/2707462-nbu-appeals-against-court-decision-about-illegality-of-privatbanks-nationalization.html

IMF negotiation with Ukraine has ALREADY failed because of this....
this is already a firm win for Putin against Ukraine...

the public mood in Kyiv is tense and anxious even now....
a lotta anti-capitualtion protests been goin on you see...


Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: msmob on October 17, 2019, 08:38:28 AM
today the court in Kyiv deferred its finding to this instead
case No. 826/7432/17

http://www.ukrinform.net/rubric-economy/2707462-nbu-appeals-against-court-decision-about-illegality-of-privatbanks-nationalization.html

IMF negotiation with Ukraine has ALREADY failed because of this....
this is already a firm win for Putin against Ukraine...

the public mood in Kyiv is tense and anxious even now....
a lotta anti-capitualtion protests been goin on you see...

Krimster,

When is the case against the Russian arm of Privatbank ? ;)

Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: krimster2 on October 17, 2019, 10:05:45 AM
B&N Bank acquired 100 percent of Moskomprivatbank's shares from Ukrainian PrivatBank

Moskomprivatbank has an estimated value of $168 million, which includes a subordinated loan.

B&N Bank received a $336 million loan from Deposit Insurance Agency to maintain Moskomprivatbank's liquidity and implement a project related to the creation of the credit institution's independent information technology infrastructure.

The Central Bank of the Russian Federation also approved the rehabilitation procedure of Moskomprivatbank, under which B&N Bank will act as an acquirer. The Central Bank imposed temporary administration on Moskomprivatbank in March, at which point DIA was assigned as Moskomprivatbank's temporary administrator.

Moskomprivatbank shareholders will elect new governing bodies during an upcoming general meeting. Control will be carried out under B&N Bank's control after new governing bodies are elected.



as you can see from this recent video, Americans are just about able to see what's ACTUALLY going on now....
http://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow/watch/trump-ukraine-scandal-spawns-counterintelligence-investigation-71442501867

and remember, I told ya'll here, before the whistle blower story was public...

Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: krimster2 on December 05, 2019, 09:15:53 AM
so when y’all see groups of smiling Russian soldiers takin selfies on Potemkin Stairs...
that’s the time when I’ll be making my next trip to Odessa as well...
now remember tovarish , don't forget to say, "spossiba veteran" on Victory Day, horrosho!

I have my eye on a kino studio there, but UNFORTUNATELY I am not high enough in the organizatsiya to be “allowed” to buy it....

technically, at the moment, I’m a nobody, cuz I ain’t a citizen of the Russian Federation...
I’m just a “consultant” who works “pod stolom”....
most of the time, I figure out an angle to make money so that it doesn’t come out of my patron’s pocket...
he tends to appreciate the thoughtfulness of this approach...

but in a couple of years, I WILL be a Russian citizen...
AND I will even be allowed to change my name to a new Russian sounding name...
I will essentially have a new identity thanks to the Russian government!!!!
spossiba bolshoi!

so in order to get the studio, I’ve had to bring it to the attention of my patron
and offer him a partnership in it...
I knew he’d be interested because he has a daughter the same age as one of mine...

he has the judicial and United Russia and FSB connections to just grab the company outright in court... and this is basically what he will do, file a bogus law suit and then seize the company from its Ukrainian owners in the new Russian property court, we will just be one of a thousand similar cases...
we each have to put into escrow the amount needed to cover all the payoff costs, which totals $500,000.... not too bad for a company worth 10 million.....
but...
right after this happens, we will have to make a large payment to a special Russian “Rare Violin” purchase program through an offshore bank in Latvia....
AND THEN, I will be part owner, and give myself a vice presidency position...
but...
I am also hoping to “piggyback” my own side deal on top of this through the same process...
for getting 80 hecters of land that borders the Akkerman fortress south of Odessa...
and build the Villa Del Krimster there....
and if I’m successful in making all the connections for doing the side deal, then I'll just be doing more and more..

this is how I am laying the foundation for my future family dynasty in Russia...

Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: jone on December 05, 2019, 09:26:27 AM
What a fanciful tale.   Imagine, dividing the war spoils before the war. 
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: ML on December 05, 2019, 09:29:26 AM

he has the judicial and political and FSB connections to just grab the company outright in court... and this is basically what he will do, file a bogus law suit and then seize the company from its Ukrainian owners in the new Russian property court, we will just be one of a thousand similar cases...

And you will be able to look your daughters in the face !!  ??
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: krimster2 on December 05, 2019, 09:37:21 AM
"And you will be able to look your daughters in the face !!  ??"




this WAS ALL MY OLDEST DAUGHTER'S IDEA IN THE FIRST PLACE!!!!

this is how BIZNESS gets done in Russia moy droog...
if it wasn't me, it'd just be someone else doin it...

we live part-time in Russia now...
so I teach my daughters to be as hard as nails and as "cut-throat" as they can be...




"What a fanciful tale.   Imagine, dividing the war spoils before the war.  "

it's ALWAYS done this way... it's not as ad-hoc as you think...
everyone in Russia knows what's coming for Ukraine at the end of next year...
that's all the GazProm execs talked about at my home during Thanksgiving...



Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: jone on December 05, 2019, 12:25:44 PM
Wonder how all of those tanks will enjoy meeting the Javelin missiles that the US just provided Ukraine?   Absent a full scale war, including air bombardments, Putin will not have his way.   And if Putin does proceed with an all-out war, then Ukraine will have significant support from the US and European allies.   

Personally,  I think ole Krimster is smoking the whacky weed.  We've heard his predictions like this before.   But I've always noticed his political prognostications do not, typically, come through.   My guess is that the first thing NATO countries would do to an all out war by Russia and against Ukraine is that they would turn off the oil spigots from Russia and let Russia choke on their own bile.   Europe has had five years, now, to prepare for Russian belligerence.    Russia is, after all, a third world country with a big gas can.  And the Europeans know all too well about allowing other European countries the ability to make war on their neighbors.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: krimster2 on December 05, 2019, 02:40:19 PM
Trump supporters say the dumbest stuff ever...
a Javelin will never be launched in Ukraine...
half of Ukraine's military will surrender the first day...

North Stream was done with Europe's cooperation, just so this could happen...
Europe is switching to Russia....
Putin controls ALL the pipelines to Europe, it's why he's in Syria...
Putin will call Trump and tell him what to do and say when he takes Ukraine just like all the OTHER CALLS...
Russian mob is already moving into Odessa and displacing Ukrainian one...
your president is done now and on borrowed time, Putin KNOWS EXACTLY how long Trump will be in Office
and Trump's last day is Putin's deadline for taking Ukraine...
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: jone on December 05, 2019, 02:46:59 PM
Perhaps you've only been reading your own posts.   I am castigated on this forum because I do NOT support Trump.  But then, your head has not been seen for a long time on this forum.   It disappeared a long time ago.   But we know where it is.  Why don't you pull it outta there?

I find it absolutely amazing that you support the fringe liberal element here in the United States, but when you walk off the plane in Russia you turn all radically ultra conservative despot supporter.   And yet, you see no disparity between the two positions.    :rolleyes:
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: krimster2 on December 05, 2019, 04:15:27 PM
“Why don't you pull it outta there?”


yeah, you’re right...
my wife and her GF have had enough...
BUT...
now, it's my turn, oh boy oh boy....

"And yet, you see no disparity between the two positions."

nothing to do with ideology
my only ideal in Russia is to make money...
and it's an incredible place for that!!!

Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: BillyB on December 09, 2019, 05:53:12 PM

Ukraine and Russia has meeting in Paris and agree to ceasefire among other things before end of 2019.

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/ukraine-russia-agree-on-full-ceasefire-in-east-ukraine-before-2019-end-communique/ar-BBY0n2s?ocid=spartanntp
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: krimster2 on December 09, 2019, 08:00:35 PM
ever hear of the Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact...
you don't think Russia would EVER do something like that again do you?
isn't the treaty a great cover story for when you DO invade....
do you know that 7% of Ukraine's territory IS ALREADY under Russian occupation....

if you're a foreigner in Ukraine
just remember this...
when you hear that Russia has cut off the gas to Ukraine....
RUN!!!! FORREST RUN!!!!

Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: msmob on December 09, 2019, 08:41:59 PM

do you know that 7% of Ukraine's territory IS ALREADY under Russian occupation....



Most of us do .. it's just the Kremlin that suggests, otherwise .... ;)

Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Trenchcoat on December 18, 2019, 05:53:18 PM
ever hear of the Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact...
you don't think Russia would EVER do something like that again do you?
isn't the treaty a great cover story for when you DO invade....
do you know that 7% of Ukraine's territory IS ALREADY under Russian occupation....

if you're a foreigner in Ukraine
just remember this...
when you hear that Russia has cut off the gas to Ukraine....
RUN!!!! FORREST RUN!!!!

Do you think it will amount to a prelude to invasion? rather than just an economic war?

According to the map in this article Ukraine doesn't buy Gas of Russia, I think they couldn't afford it and were behind in payments & Russia cut them off for aligning themselves too closely to the west/EU. So now it is just used to carry gas to Europe in exchange for a carrier fee. I'm guessing this is more than the trouble of paying Ukraine a carrier fee even if the carrier fee is worth a bit to Ukraine.

http://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bloomberg.com/amp/news/articles/2019-12-18/u-s-concedes-defeat-on-nord-stream-2-pipeline-officials-say

What do you think the EU's/Germany's response will be if Russia invade Ukraine, will they trade embargo the gas coming through to Germany from Russia? Trade Embargo on a larger scale? Visa restrictions? Or not much that amounts to anything at all?

Or will Russia just leave Ukraine to wallow in it having outlived their usefulness to Russia?

Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: krimster2 on December 18, 2019, 06:53:21 PM
the pipeline was built BECAUSE of the invasion
if Trump can't get sanctions reversed, than Putin has NO OTHER choice than to seize Ukraine...
but he needs to wait a bit more...

Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Trenchcoat on December 22, 2019, 03:52:55 PM
http://thefinancialexpress.com.bd/world/europe/russia-gas-export-pipeline-in-jeopardy-as-trump-signs-sanctions-bill-1576925827?amp=true&__twitter_impression=true
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: msmob on January 11, 2020, 01:48:14 AM
Trench,

Tell us about the Gas pipe that crosses under the Black Sea and via Turkey and Bulgaria that means Gazprom don't have to pay transit fees to Ukraine for 13 billion cubic metres ...?


http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-01-08/russia-opens-natural-gas-link-to-turkey-amid-u-s-opposition (http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-01-08/russia-opens-natural-gas-link-to-turkey-amid-u-s-opposition)


Google failed you as you THOUGHT you knew !


Mind you there'll soon be another pipeline delivering Azerbaijan's  gas to GR., Italy etc.,

Turkey is be the new Ukraine re being a key nation re transiting gas routes and distribution... 

Turkey and RU need to remain fwends





Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: 2tallbill on February 02, 2021, 11:41:35 AM
International investigation into Ukraine war crimes
http://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/ukrainealert/international-investigation-into-ukraine-war-crimes-is-kremlins-worst-nightmare/
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Grumpy on February 02, 2021, 08:24:44 PM
I am sure the women of Luhansk are grateful that Putin saved them from my advances. :wallbash:
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Trenchcoat on April 03, 2021, 05:58:46 AM
So yes following on from comments on the other thread it seems that an invasion force may be building on Ukraines border and who knows an invasion may be imminent:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/04/02/biden-calls-ukrainian-president-show-support-amid-russia-military/amp/

Fortunately Biden has made a 'phone call' so I'm sure all will be fine lol.

We've been here a year or two back when it looked like Russian tanks might start rolling down Kiev's city roads. So who knows if anything will come of it this time.

This time the virus will have seen of most foreigners from Ukraine so not as much chance they'll be caught up in the cross fire and so provoke further outcry from the west. The Russian economy I hear is soon to go into deficit so maybe a take over of Ukraine will provide the resources it needs. Historically Russia no doubt sees Ukraine as part of its territory and indeed it's history. I would be surprised if Russia would just amass tanks and troops at its border without reason as it must cost a lot of money & bother to organise it all and if for no reason?

I think Biden is seen as weaker than Trump so Putin may be a bit opportunist here. It would be a pain for Ukraine to go as then I would have to pay for a visa so I'm just sitting tight and hoping all will be well :)
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Grumpy on April 03, 2021, 07:54:08 AM
An estimated 4,000 Russian troops have been deployed to the border with Ukraine, according to the New York Times, citing an unnamed U.S. official. The paper also reported that in response to the troop buildup, the U.S. military’s European Command has raised its alert level to its highest setting — “potential imminent crisis.”

Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskiy said Thursday that 20 Ukrainian servicemen have been killed so far in 2021 — including four earlier this week in the deadliest single confrontation for months — and another 57 injured.

Four Ukrainian servicemen were killed and seven injured in fighting earlier this week, the most deadly military incident in the conflict so far this year.

http://www.themoscowtimes.com/2021/04/02/ukraine-says-russia-massing-troops-on-border-us-warns-moscow-a73448

http://www.themoscowtimes.com/2021/04/02/explainer-why-are-tensions-between-russia-and-ukraine-ratcheting-up-a73457
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Trenchcoat on April 03, 2021, 09:36:34 AM
An estimated 4,000 Russian troops have been deployed to the border with Ukraine, according to the New York Times, citing an unnamed U.S. official. The paper also reported that in response to the troop buildup, the U.S. military’s European Command has raised its alert level to its highest setting — “potential imminent crisis.”

Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskiy said Thursday that 20 Ukrainian servicemen have been killed so far in 2021 — including four earlier this week in the deadliest single confrontation for months — and another 57 injured.

Four Ukrainian servicemen were killed and seven injured in fighting earlier this week, the most deadly military incident in the conflict so far this year.

http://www.themoscowtimes.com/2021/04/02/ukraine-says-russia-massing-troops-on-border-us-warns-moscow-a73448

http://www.themoscowtimes.com/2021/04/02/explainer-why-are-tensions-between-russia-and-ukraine-ratcheting-up-a73457

You mean the Moscow Times not New York Times ;)

I read that but think they'll be wanting to go in with way more than 4,000 troops so I reckon that's either an early build up figure or inaccurate as from Moscow.

This article in the Mirror seems to give a pretty good idea of how it's likely to go down:

http://www.google.com/amp/s/www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/fears-grow-war-month-after-23847274.amp

So they reckon by around early May it'll all be in position attacking from the Black Sea, Normandy landing style to hit Ukraine in the South and thereby avoid the risk of getting their forces hemmed in and stuck moving up the narrow Crimean peninsula. At the same time they'll move in from the North of Ukraine to get behind Ukrainian forces fighting in the East of Ukraine, cut them off and surround them. They could also try to move up the Crimean peninsula and push forward in the Donbass also if they find they need to put extra pressure on Ukrainian forces.

My guess is that by now Kherson girl is deeply regretting not getting with Yours truly as who knows how badly the Ukrainian people may fair in all off this.

The article speculates whether this may escalate into a pan European or World War. I personally doubt it, I think if the invasion goes ahead Ukrainians will be left to their fate. I can't see Biden getting involved nor the EU. Ukraine is not a member of the EU nor NATO so they'll likely duck out of it. Now that Ukraine is becoming surrounded the only route for help to come will be through the EU/western Ukraine and I very much doubt they'll get any help there. At most the response will very likely be more Sanctions on Russia and Russia will take Ukraine. It's generally the most logical thing to do. I think Russia mainly sees taking Ukraine as taking back it's historical territory. I don't think they'll try it on with EU member states. Possibly Georgia may come after, Belarus is pretty much in their pocket anyway so that will be about it I reckon.

Whether this will mean a new iron curtain and an end to us western guys going to the FSU for women who knows, could be in jeopardy it's looking.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Trenchcoat on April 04, 2021, 01:56:04 AM
This news article takes a different view arguing that it is more to put pressure on Ukraine, the US, etc and to test US resolve to see if they will back Ukraine much or leave it to it's own devices:

http://www.aa.com.tr/en/europe/ukraine-does-not-expect-russian-attack-in-donbas/2197483#

I'm not so sure, it may be a little uncertain how far the US, NATO and the west may back Ukraine but I believe Krimster was right when he said the last military manoeuvres were to test reaction of Ukraine, etc. This time I doubt it unless they are going to come back later for a third time but this time seems as good an opportunity as any. The virus will keep a lot of foreigners away including flights etc plus it means Ukraine is weaker because of it at the moment. It also means because of lockdown most people will be indoors anyway so potentially less civilian risk to life as essentially Putin will still want a functioning populated area.

I think whatever is said in the west at the end of the day won't amount to real support on the ground. Only western troops being moved into Ukraine would support any real intention to help Ukraine in my opinion and I don't see that happening. If it did Russia would have to decide whether it would attack and almost certainly spark a pan European or World War conflict or leave it be. I think he would be more likely to leave it be in that case but I don't think the west will want to risk being drawn into a major conflict by posting troops to Ukraine.

In fairness to be honest I don't think Ukraine is worth risking a pan-European or World War over, territory changes hand all the time throughout history but the places and the land remain. It would be a shame for us guys to see Ukraine go as a country but I don't think it's worth a World War or similar over, the loss of human life would be too high a price to pay for that I believe. We would just have to come to accept that things may be different there in future I believe.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Shadow on April 04, 2021, 03:59:30 AM

In fairness to be honest I don't think Ukraine is worth risking a pan-European or World War over, territory changes hand all the time throughout history but the places and the land remain. It would be a shame for us guys to see Ukraine go as a country but I don't think it's worth a World War or similar over, the loss of human life would be too high a price to pay for that I believe. We would just have to come to accept that things may be different there in future I believe.
Russia probably has the same opinion. With Crimea they have their Black Sea port, which is the main thing they need to keep.The rest of the country would mainly be a burden on about al resources.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Trenchcoat on April 04, 2021, 06:52:22 AM
Russia probably has the same opinion. With Crimea they have their Black Sea port, which is the main thing they need to keep.The rest of the country would mainly be a burden on about al resources.

I'm not so sure, if they took Ukraine it would give them a more direct route to Crimea. On a resources side of thing the East of Ukraine is more industrial, coal in the disputed region, tank factory around Kharkiv and Shipbuilding and sea trade routes around Nikoleav, Kherson & Mariupol. The west of Ukraine is agricultural so of some use but is likely where most resistance would grow up in the form of freedom fighting terrorist style of group.

Personally I would like to see Ukraine remain but it looks possible that Putin may invade particularly if no foreign power comes to Ukraine's aid. Ukraine is kind of hanging out there a bit as it's not in the EU nor NATO. I personally don't like the idea of it joining the EU as the EU tends to make countries dry boring places by getting them to follow all their many rules. On the other hand Ukraine is kind of exposed by itself. Georgia is about the only other country in Ukraine's position and in itself is too small & weak to offer Ukraine any meaningful help. It's why I think all of the breakaway republics should have formed their own separate Union/Organisation when they broke away from Russia/Soviet Union in the first place I think.

Anyway, will probably just have to wait and see what developments happen I guess.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: ML on April 04, 2021, 09:22:24 AM
I think if there is a large invasion of Ukraine by uniformed regular Russian Army personnel, there will develop a very large non-military resistance force that will inflict substantial pain on the Russian soldiers.

Over time, that pain may become too large for the Russian public to accept it.

Now just why this resistance did not develop in Crimea . . . I don't have a good answer other than fact that well over half of Crimea was populated by ethnic Russian folks.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Shadow on April 04, 2021, 11:22:06 PM
I'm not so sure, if they took Ukraine it would give them a more direct route to Crimea. On a resources side of thing the East of Ukraine is more industrial, coal in the disputed region, tank factory around Kharkiv and Shipbuilding and sea trade routes around Nikoleav, Kherson & Mariupol. The west of Ukraine is agricultural so of some use but is likely where most resistance would grow up in the form of freedom fighting terrorist style of group.

As Ukraininan politicians have been ore interested in filling their pockets than developing their country, anything there is outdated and would need large investments to get up to date.Russia would not put in effort to get a possible war conflict for a country that has little to offer and would at least partially remain rebellious.
As for Ukraine joining the EU, it will be a long time. Only when country like Bulgaria and Romania and the Baltcs have their population up to a higher standard new cheap labour will be needed. At that time a country like Ukraine would be the new source of cheap laour.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Trenchcoat on April 05, 2021, 03:07:59 AM
As Ukraininan politicians have been ore interested in filling their pockets than developing their country, anything there is outdated and would need large investments to get up to date.Russia would not put in effort to get a possible war conflict for a country that has little to offer and would at least partially remain rebellious.
As for Ukraine joining the EU, it will be a long time. Only when country like Bulgaria and Romania and the Baltcs have their population up to a higher standard new cheap labour will be needed. At that time a country like Ukraine would be the new source of cheap laour.

Some good points Shadow. Difficult to judge Putin's motives some have suggested it could be more political to do with Russian elections:

http://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/ukrainealert/is-putin-about-to-launch-a-new-offensive-in-ukraine/

Though I always thought they rigged them anyway. Ambition could be more territorial than economic, to look more powerful and retake strategic Black Sea ports (other than Crimea which I believe allowed them to base their fleet there prior to takeover). I think as far as the economy goes there's probably not much in it either way. Putin would almost certainly be hit by harder sanctions. On the flip side Ukraine still has some resources worthwhile but like you say they would require investment to make them worthwhile.

Russian Elections are on the 19 September 2021 so for it to help Putin out in anyway some sort of military victory would be needed before then. I think it's too early for posturing to beef up support for the elections as after months of it they would see Putin and his allies in Parliament as just full of it with no real action. So there could be a high chance of action occuring but to what extent who knows.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Trenchcoat on April 05, 2021, 03:27:04 AM
I think if there is a large invasion of Ukraine by uniformed regular Russian Army personnel, there will develop a very large non-military resistance force that will inflict substantial pain on the Russian soldiers.

Over time, that pain may become too large for the Russian public to accept it.

Now just why this resistance did not develop in Crimea . . . I don't have a good answer other than fact that well over half of Crimea was populated by ethnic Russian folks.

I think it could indeed end up another Afghanistan but only if Putin tries to take the whole country. Most of the East of Ukraine was pro-Russian, Russian speaking maybe even many ethnic Russians. So there maybe less so, my guess is that it would mostly come from the west, Lviv, Odessa and probably including up to Kiev.

Putin could just try and take the Donbass Region in despute and claim it's to protect Russian citizens there, etc, etc, excuse, excuse. He would unlikely get any real internal resistance in that territory. He could try to take a bit more such as Mariupol, Kharkiv where our Japs is or even further to try to link territory up to the north of Crimea.

I think the fact that they have bothered to spend millions building a bridge from current Russian territory to Crimea might suggest that is less likely as why bother to go to that trouble unless plan changes over the years.

My guess is that he may just try to take the disputed territory and possibly a bit more such as Kharkiv & Mariupol as they are right near it so could be deemed to be disputed also. That way Putin will likely avoid a larger conflict and long term resistance forces by just confining himself to this area. Once Ukraine's forces are defeated/gives up the fight the situation he will see as sorted and another election victory for his party. As they say he seems to favour small quick wars to help electoral success.

By taking the disputed region it will make the territory both Ukraine & Russia hold a more compact front on which to base their armies.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Trenchcoat on April 05, 2021, 01:33:10 PM
Well, a lot of DIY stores around where I am were selling out of sand and cement over this Easter weekend. Could be people constructing Nuclear fallout shelters in case this Russian/Ukraine thing goes that way. Krim could have been right all along with an inside track on it all. Putin is an old KGB guy, cold & calculating and probably still wants to win the cold war, this he may see as his final moment to do so. At his age he probably wouldn't care if the while world went nuclear.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Shadow on April 05, 2021, 11:45:18 PM
Well, a lot of DIY stores around where I am were selling out of sand and cement over this Easter weekend. Could be people constructing Nuclear fallout shelters in case this Russian/Ukraine thing goes that way. Krim could have been right all along with an inside track on it all. Putin is an old KGB guy, cold & calculating and probably still wants to win the cold war, this he may see as his final moment to do so. At his age he probably wouldn't care if the while world went nuclear.
I see that Putin and Biden had a good talk. People in fear will band together and forget their differences.That was the main target of the Cold War.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Trenchcoat on April 06, 2021, 02:07:07 AM
I see that Putin and Biden had a good talk. People in fear will band together and forget their differences.That was the main target of the Cold War.

Looks like so far the US, UK and EU are just offering their support without anything more tangible than words of comfort.

http://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/world/2021/apr/05/eu-sounds-alarm-at-russian-troops-ukraine-border-moves

This report states that artillery has been moved from as far away as Siberia and that the build up and manoeuvres are not in line with the usual type of troop rotations.

I guess in about a months time we'll see what Putin is after.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Trenchcoat on April 08, 2021, 09:36:00 PM
Latest news is that Russia may actually be far more advanced along its preparations to invade Ukraine than thought with an invasion possibly coming within days!!!

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/russia-ukraine-crisis-could-explode-23879639.amp

Stands to reason as the best time for them to be ready to attack is at the beginning off Spring as soon as the worst of the cold weather is out the way. That gives them maximum time to succeed in an invasion before Winter when the weather might make it harder. So gives most time in case of any unforeseen set backs. Scale and logistical bother make it look like Putin is serious about invading Ukraine and so a high likelihood he isn't bluffing.

Highly doubtful that western nations reassuring words will be backed up with military forces for Ukraine.

In any case Ukraine will need far more than a few plane fills of British paratroopers to make any difference, either that or they were really just sex tourists dressed up to parachute into Ukraine after too long without women ;D

Ukraine has apparently called up all its reserves but they'll likely pale in comparison to the numeracy of the Russian forces not least to say of the huge Russian hardware amassing at the border.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Shadow on April 08, 2021, 11:28:32 PM
Most successful Russian operations were in winter, as no Western military is trained to survive that long time.As for invasion plans, I guess some attempt to turn the people away from their COVID induced misery.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: BillyB on April 09, 2021, 08:26:00 AM



Biden doesn't have the support of many Americans and is a weak President. Europe won't do anything without America. I'm not surprised Russia and China feel this is a great time for expansion.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: ML on April 09, 2021, 08:38:20 AM


Biden doesn't have the support of many Americans . . . .

Even excluding voting fraud . . . Joe has the voting support of 70-80 million Americans.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: BillyB on April 09, 2021, 09:31:35 AM



There's different levels of support. In my younger days I would join the military for my country's benefit regardless if a Democrat or Republican was president. I not only think Biden is illegit, our government is also corrupt at many levels and on both sides of the political fence. I would not join the military to fight a war Biden engages in. China and Russia understand we are more split than ever. Politicians are not interested in uniting us. They certainly won't ask us to accept a court process with a jury of 12 citizens to prevent riots. Russia, China and the Democrats want to divide and conquer us. It's not going to happen overnight but it's started.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Trenchcoat on April 09, 2021, 09:46:02 AM


Biden doesn't have the support of many Americans and is a weak President. Europe won't do anything without America. I'm not surprised Russia and China feel this is a great time for expansion.

I agree that Europe won't do anything without the US. The UK's army is too small to stand up to Russia's army for long so I don't see us deploying there by ourselves. It's only our nukes that keep the Russians off our soil. I don't see any mainland European army deploying there either. It would take several European nations to put up a credible force and I don't see the co-ordination or will to do that. End of the day whatever goes down in Ukraine European nations will just be glad it's not happening in their soil nor need to get involved.

Biden has to realise that he's back in the old cold war situation where he needs to counter Russia (and China) or lose allies and influence one by one. I don't get the impression he has quite fallen in yet and will likely stand helpless on the sidelines on this one.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Boethius on April 09, 2021, 10:48:01 AM
Most successful Russian operations were in winter, as no Western military is trained to survive that long time.As for invasion plans, I guess some attempt to turn the people away from their COVID induced misery.


Weather is not a huge factor in that particular region.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Grumpy on April 09, 2021, 01:31:27 PM
Efforts to resolve the long-running war in Eastern Ukraine have all so far failed.
There have been ceasefires, and then, almost inevitably, violations of ceasefires.
But a major flare up in fighting between Russian-backed separatists and Ukrainian troops is now threatening to escalate the conflict beyond anything we've seen so far.
Russia is reportedly massing its troops at the border and warning NATO not to send military support to Ukraine.
But the alliance - and the United States - have made it clear Kiev will not be left alone if Russia launches an offensive in the region.

http://youtu.be/AJVraYmfosY
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Trenchcoat on April 09, 2021, 07:02:57 PM
Efforts to resolve the long-running war in Eastern Ukraine have all so far failed.
There have been ceasefires, and then, almost inevitably, violations of ceasefires.
But a major flare up in fighting between Russian-backed separatists and Ukrainian troops is now threatening to escalate the conflict beyond anything we've seen so far.
Russia is reportedly massing its troops at the border and warning NATO not to send military support to Ukraine.
But the alliance - and the United States - have made it clear Kiev will not be left alone if Russia launches an offensive in the region.

http://youtu.be/AJVraYmfosY

Putin is making this statement as he is 'hopeing' that NATO troops won't be sent. If the west makes it clear that they are sending in NATO troops then that would thwart his plans. So his warning is a bluff, to us in the west it really means 'send in NATO troops' as if we go along with what Putin 'warns' then he'll get what he wants and invade Ukraine. Right now I can't see the west actually putting troops on the ground though. Time is one one issue as we would have to move any NATO troops stationed in Europe there another is will to do anything like that which I think most western leaders are lacking, this giving Putin a free hand.

Quickest stop gap support would be to send in lots off hand held anti-tank & anti-plane gear, rocket launchers or similar. A lot of local resistance using this gear could strike heavy losses on the Russians but equally would make the Russians pound civilian areas where these resistance fighters would be holed up.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Grumpy on April 10, 2021, 09:54:13 AM
http://youtu.be/5884ceMgZE0
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: ML on April 10, 2021, 12:48:00 PM
Don't they do build ups every year or so ?
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Trenchcoat on April 10, 2021, 03:57:27 PM
http://youtu.be/5884ceMgZE0

That's a huge amount of tanks Grumpy, my guess is that they would easily swamp Ukraine's army and they would be utterly annihilated. Only a big army force moving in to support Ukraine's is likely to be able to possibly counter that sort of enormity of forces and I don't think such a force will be able to mobilize in time.

If Russia is seeking to attack then I think the only chance Ukraine has got is to get another country or two on board who will actually be willing to put troops on the ground as quick as they can then hope that ours the Russians off in terms of them not wanting to strike against other countries in the process of invading Ukraine. Either that or Ukrainians just hope the Russia will leave them with the bulk of their country if they invade. I still reckon that Ukrainians themselves would be best of with hand held rocket launcher type of stuff using hit & run type of tactics.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: 2tallbill on April 10, 2021, 05:17:03 PM
Don't they do build ups every year or so ?

They usually do a big war games thing in Late Summer
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Grumpy on April 10, 2021, 07:18:15 PM
"Some of the Russian military moves have a long-term feel. Russian troops and military hardware are at a recently constructed camp near Voronezh, about 155 miles from the Ukrainian border, according to the Moscow-based Conflict Intelligence Team, which monitors Russia’s military and security services.
Russia is also relocating the 56th Guards Air Assault Brigade to Feodosia in Crimea."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/russia-ukraine-military-biden-donbas/2021/04/09/99859490-96d3-11eb-8f0a-3384cf4fb399_story.html

I would be very careful where I visited in Russia. Too easy to inadvertently witness a troop movement and get accused of spying.

Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Trenchcoat on April 11, 2021, 02:00:16 AM
They usually do a big war games thing in Late Summer

A must see event for tourists surely :D
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Grumpy on April 11, 2021, 08:04:14 AM
A more banal explanation is that Moscow is pressurising Kiev to break the stalemate in the so-called Minsk peace process – after the latest Donbas ceasefire collapsed. Putin enjoyed a big, but fleeting, ratings boost after Crimea’s annexation. Last month, he used a lavish televised rally marking its seventh anniversary to recapture lost popularity.

It seems he failed. Russians are preoccupied with the coronavirus pandemic (and the incompetent official response), falling incomes, and a worsening socio-economic outlook. More than ever, Putin’s Soviet empire restoration project appears irrelevant, especially to younger people.

Putin is under fire at home from supporters of the much-persecuted opposition activist, Alexei Navalny, and over corruption allegations. Only 32% of Russians trust their president, according to a recent Levada Center poll. Seen this way, the Ukraine build-up looks like a calculated distraction for domestic political purposes.

Yet Putin may also be deliberately testing US and European resolve. He will not have forgotten how George W Bush pledged undying support to Georgia’s newly democratic government in 2005, then ducked out when war erupted with Russia in 2008.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/apr/11/china-v-russia-v-america-is-2021-the-year-orwells-1984-comes-true

"Politicians are like prostitutes, they go with whoever pays the most money."
Donetsk separatist fighter 
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: BillyB on April 11, 2021, 10:11:49 AM

But the alliance - and the United States - have made it clear Kiev will not be left alone if Russia launches an offensive in the region.






Before the 2016 election, Trump said Russia isn't going to invade Ukraine if he was President. Did Biden recently say something to that effect? Russia and China wants more real estate. The question is when is the best time to get this real estate and it's best they do it at the same time. Both Russia and China has bribed Biden and family and have compromising video and photo evidence of their crimes. They expect Biden to be soft against anything they do.




Don't they do build ups every year or so ?




Sometimes it's training exercises, sometimes is saber rattling, and sometimes it'll turn into a Crimea/Eastern Ukraine. When an invasion sized force is sitting next door to a border, it make those living on the other side of the border nervous. Putin knows very what it does to people when you point a loaded gun to their heads.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Grumpy on April 11, 2021, 12:51:38 PM
Russian Armed Force is reportedly deploying its Iskander (NATO Reporting name: SS-26 Stone) missile systems with R-500 extended-range ground-launched cruise missiles in areas near Voronezh, which’s 250 kilometers away from the border with Ukraine’s Kharkiv and Luhansk regions.
Iskander-K is the latest variant in the Iskander series of missiles. The missile system is equipped with two types (9M728 and 9M729) of extended-range ground-launched cruise missiles.

Russia says that the Iskander cruise missile has a range of just less than 300 miles, at the same time, military analysts stressed that they can have a range of more than 3000 km similar to ship-based Caliber- analog.

Russian official sources claim that the R-500 missile carries a conventional 500 kg warhead or nuclear warhead with a yield of around 10-50 kT. It is likely that there are several different conventional warheads, including cluster, fuel-air explosive, and bunker-busting. The missile can overcome enemy air defense systems while offering high-probability of failure-free operation in countermeasures environments. It has a target accuracy of 5m to 7m and operates even in fog or low visibility.

http://defence-blog.com/news/army/russia-deploys-iskander-systems-with-extended-range-missiles-to-ukrainian-border.html

The Russian Navy is sending 10 vessels, a mixture of landing craft and small gunboats, from its Caspian Sea Flotilla to the Black Sea. The deployment is ostensibly part of a larger series of readiness drills, but comes amid a continuing and worrisome Russian military buildup near the country's borders with Ukraine.

http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/40103/russian-gunboats-head-to-the-black-sea-to-join-troop-buildup-near-ukraine

Yesterday, the U.S. Air Force also sent two B-1B bombers from Ellsworth Air Force Base in South Dakota on a long-range, round-trip mission to the Aegean Sea, just south of the waterway leading into the Black Sea. The ostensible reason for these sorties was to “showcase the U.S. commitment to European security," which would seem to be related, at least in part, to the situation developing along the Russia-Ukraine border. It's also worth noting that the Air Force previously disclosed that a mission that B-1Bs conducted in the Black Sea region last year effectively saw those aircraft train to decapitate Russia's Black Sea Fleet.

Two US destroyers are deploying to the Black Sea.

http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/40118/turkey-confirms-u-s-destroyers-are-headed-for-the-black-sea-amid-russia-ukraine-crisis

Links to several more interesting reports on those pages.

Given the amounts of nuclear capable weaponry being amassed in the region, how long will it be before the Don Bass is turned into a radioactive wasteland?
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: BillyB on April 12, 2021, 09:20:51 AM
Yesterday, the U.S. Air Force also sent two B-1B bombers from Ellsworth Air Force Base in South Dakota on a long-range, round-trip mission to the Aegean Sea, just south of the waterway leading into the Black Sea. The ostensible reason for these sorties was to “showcase the U.S. commitment to European security," which would seem to be related, at least in part, to the situation developing along the Russia-Ukraine border. It's also worth noting that the Air Force previously disclosed that a mission that B-1Bs conducted in the Black Sea region last year effectively saw those aircraft train to decapitate Russia's Black Sea Fleet.



Before the US Air Force sends high value bombers in a war zone, they need to achieve air superiority. To achieve that we need to shoot down every Russian jet and bomb every radar and anti aircraft battery on the ground. Putin knows nobody in our government is going to do that. If he goes after more land, the punishment he'll get is sanctions.


Another option is Biden can loan Ukraine some voting machines and help with their elections promising Putin he will get the puppet he wants to run Ukraine next election in exchange for backing down.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Trenchcoat on April 15, 2021, 12:54:10 PM
I think you're right Billy, sanctions would work more expedient than a much more costly war situation with Russia. Some suggest that all this troop build up is Putin trying to get present sanctions dropped and to stop Ukraine's military engaging in a new stronger offensive into the Donbass. Biden has punted forward a Summit with Putin and he has agreed apparently so could be something to that.

Meanwhile, preparations for an invasion continue at pace:

http://www.standard.co.uk/news/world/russia-invasion-ukraine-war-assault-vehicles-troops-b929750.html?amp
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Grumpy on April 20, 2021, 03:18:23 PM
http://www.reuters.com/resizer/juROOWHHMd49Co01goaDDpmRIug=/960x0/cloudfront-us-east-2.images.arcpublishing.com/reuters/APVF6YCFKZM5BAUBVBOSXDJF4M.jpg

http://static.politico.com/dims4/default/998f4ba/2147483647/resize/1160x/quality/90/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fstatic.politico.com%2Fd3%2F72%2F5d2fa8fa4b7dae0f0e32881f090e%2F6598296.jpg

The Pentagon has scrapped a potential Black Sea transit by two Navy destroyers this week due to concerns about escalating tensions between Russia and Ukraine, according to two U.S. officials familiar with the plans.

Earlier this month, the Navy notified Turkey, which manages traffic through the Bosporus and Dardanelles straits leading to the Black Sea under the 1936 Montreux Convention, that they were tentatively planning a routine transit by the two destroyers, according to a U.S. defense official.

U.S. officials note that President Joe Biden has repeatedly reaffirmed Washington’s commitment to Ukraine’s territorial integrity and recently approved an additional $125 million worth of lethal aid to help the country defend its borders, including two armed patrol boats and counter-artillery radar.

And NATO Secretary General Jens Stoltenberg said Wednesday during a joint press conference with Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin and Secretary of State Antony Blinken that the organization has increased its military presence in the Black Sea region, including with additional air policing and naval presence.

“We are committed to assisting Ukraine with its self-defense needs,” he said.

http://www.reuters.com/article/ukraine-crisis-usa-turkey-russia-int/u-s-cancels-warships-deployment-to-black-sea-turkish-diplomatic-sources-idUSKBN2C12U3

http://www.politico.com/news/2021/04/15/us-navy-ukraine-russia-tensions-481897
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: japtats on April 20, 2021, 03:51:46 PM
I would warn against going to Ukraine for the time being . I am relocating, I just stayed for my tattoos , but now things are getting tense in Ukraine . There is also a new strain of Corona , so if you don't get bombed by Russia , maybe Corona will kill you instead .

Honestly , in my opinion, people are better off going to Russia . My experiences in Russia has always been better , more friendly to foreigners , less scam attempts , more genuine connections .
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Grumpy on April 20, 2021, 04:26:39 PM
I would warn against going to Ukraine for the time being . I am relocating, I just stayed for my tattoos , but now things are getting tense in Ukraine . There is also a new strain of Corona , so if you don't get bombed by Russia , maybe Corona will kill you instead .

Honestly , in my opinion, people are better off going to Russia . My experiences in Russia has always been better , more friendly to foreigners , less scam attempts , more genuine connections .

Siberia or the far northern cities, maybe. I may be a bit paranoid, I worry about being in the wrong place at the wrong time as chess master Putin moves his military around. Diplomats and other staff being kicked out of, or arrested in several countries.    Do you want to be accused of espionage and held in an exchange deal for Boris Badov?  Western  Ukraine or Moldova might be safer.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Trenchcoat on April 21, 2021, 12:27:19 AM
I would warn against going to Ukraine for the time being . I am relocating, I just stayed for my tattoos , but now things are getting tense in Ukraine . There is also a new strain of Corona , so if you don't get bombed by Russia , maybe Corona will kill you instead .

Honestly , in my opinion, people are better off going to Russia . My experiences in Russia has always been better , more friendly to foreigners , less scam attempts , more genuine connections .

What about your girl Japs? Are you still with her?
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: GQBlues on April 21, 2021, 08:59:04 PM
Why we keep sticking our neck into other peoples problem is simply beyond me. Ukraine is not a NATO member, and if the EU is so desperate to establish a new source of commerce, let them stick their own kids for a change. Sheeesh.

A Democrat gets into office, and here we go again. Ukraine was a mess during Obama’s admin, it stop being a US mess the last 4 years, then less than a year of another Democratic president, here comes that mess again.

Can you folks now understand that ‘we’ really didn’t have anything to do with that silly civil war of 2014?

Right! 🙄

http://youtu.be/XM62PIYYGFs
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: japtats on April 22, 2021, 05:53:38 AM
Siberia or the far northern cities, maybe. I may be a bit paranoid, I worry about being in the wrong place at the wrong time as chess master Putin moves his military around. Diplomats and other staff being kicked out of, or arrested in several countries.    Do you want to be accused of espionage and held in an exchange deal for Boris Badov?  Western  Ukraine or Moldova might be safer.

Not paranoi, everything that can go wrong, will one day go wrong. People weigh out the risks, and the severity of being wrong. Low chance of Ukraine being turned into Russia's warzone vs the West, but there is a risk. Me and the GF are positioning ourselves away from the conflict, to give us time to go if things turn south . More chance of Russia bombing people than being accused of being a spy, but there are mercenaries in the East of ukraine, western solider ready to act when told to.

I have no idea why Russia wants to take more of ukraine,and aggravate the west. Ukrainians just want to be left alone, out of Russia's reach. I been all over ukraine, all share the same view. But Russia likes to post on their news outlets that Ukrainians are destroying their own country, and Russians buy what the media tells them.

It is a very sad situation, but everyone thinks they are ready to fight, until they get punched in the face. Russia and China won't last vs USA and the rest of the West. Even USA itself can handle the two of those countries, if it came out to an all out war.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: ML on April 22, 2021, 09:54:02 AM
Russia and China won't last vs USA and the rest of the West. Even USA itself can handle the two of those countries, if it came out to an all out war.

Are you talking about the same country that lost the war to tiny North Viet Nam?
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Trenchcoat on April 22, 2021, 10:15:01 PM
As we likely all know by now Russia is pulling it's troops back from Ukraine's border:

BBC News - Russia to pull troops back from near Ukraine
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-56842763

Nothing to stop him moving them back at a moment's notice though seems to be a lot of bother to do all of that for not much reason not to mention the cost, could even be a ruse before an invasion to take Ukraine off guard, we shall see I guess.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: japtats on April 23, 2021, 07:16:32 AM
Are you talking about the same country that lost the war to tiny North Viet Nam?

If it is a war of soldiers/tanks vs soldiers/tanks, then yes. If it is a war based on a formulae, won't lat long. Remember what america did with a formulae e=mc^2, made a nuke? There is anti matter bombs (an example, but producing that much anti matter to make a blast is too expensive), just an example how science and formulaes can change everything, really quickly.

I am sure America have developed some weapons and defences that would wipe Russia and China out, they just don't show their cards. If people knew what weapons America had, they could reverse engineer on how to produce it. Better to keep it at bay, release it when needed.

We are in a different age, where things are becoming scientifically interesting. Get the science right, then there is no war, just a location that will be taken off the map.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: ML on April 23, 2021, 09:09:16 AM
Russia said it may pull back troops from Ukrainian border because it has effectively demonstrated its ability to defend the Russian homeland.

This makes sense, since it was well known that Ukraine was preparing to invade Russia.

But Russia said it will keep all the heavy artillery in place to 'practice' firing later in  the year.

- - - -

As a side note, before Russia signaled intent to pull back some troops:

I had received notice that I would be recalled to active duty (but in an undercover role) to help this invading Ukrainian force.
I would be provided a special mobile phone over which my wife would interpret between myself, the Ukrainian soldiers, and any captured Russian soldiers.

The Pentagon had determined (I don't know how) that she had fluency in English, Ukrainian and Russian languages.

I had inquired if I would receive extra hazardous duty pay . . . but hadn't received any info back yet.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Grumpy on September 11, 2021, 05:11:19 PM
http://youtu.be/Ez_zvVZEbvw
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Boethius on October 26, 2021, 10:45:40 AM
All internet connections to Ukraine currently are down.  Rumours are there was an attempted coup, but there is no confirmation yet.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: ML on October 26, 2021, 06:49:26 PM
WOW this jumped out at me as something very  scary.

But my google search uncovered nothing.

Wife has talked to people in Ukraine via Skype all day as this is her birthday.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: John Gaunt on October 27, 2021, 03:22:09 AM
I haven’t heard anything to suggest that.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: BC on October 27, 2021, 05:10:34 AM
Have been online with folks I work with in UA all yesterday and today.

No issues noted.

Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Trenchcoat on October 31, 2021, 06:16:51 AM
Well according to recent reports Russia's troops are on the move again. Putin is pulling tanks from Siberia in the direction of Ukraine apparently according to this article:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10147369/Russian-westbound-gas-supply-Yamal-Europe-pipeline-comes-halt.html

Not sure what he's after this time or whether the oil pipelines will play a part. Seems a lot of fuss to keep moving troops on such a large scale around unless you intend to do something with them.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: ML on October 31, 2021, 09:49:30 AM
Well according to recent reports Russia's troops are on the move again. Putin is pulling tanks from Siberia in the direction of Ukraine apparently according to this article:

Ooooopps . . . I guess he doesn't know that China poses a much bigger risk to Russia (in the long run) than Ukraine ever will.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Trenchcoat on November 02, 2021, 06:02:57 PM
Ooooopps . . . I guess he doesn't know that China poses a much bigger risk to Russia (in the long run) than Ukraine ever will.

You could be right ML, China is a big military and economic power now right on Russia's doorstep. They may have a few common issues against the west but with Chiba getting so strong and Russia renewing it's military technology they could end up seeing each other as a threat.

Latest news on Ukraine & Russia's new military build up:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10156359/Ukrainian-President-Zelensky-corners-Biden-COP26-royal-reception-discuss-tensions-Russia.html
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Trenchcoat on November 06, 2021, 12:23:14 PM
Russia still has its build up of troops near Ukraine which is becoming a concern for the US:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10172613/Biden-sends-CIA-Director-Bill-Burns-Moscow-warn-Putin-building-troops-Ukraine-border.html

Apparently article states Ukraine has a problem with energy also. Guessing their gas and electricity supply is worse than ours.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Trenchcoat on November 12, 2021, 07:28:07 AM
Looks like this could be it! Russia looks like it's sizing up to invade Ukraine, looking like it could really happen this time:

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/russia-brink-ukraine-invasion-thousands-25442398

With the virus, energy issues etc and now the Russkies amassing huge forces to invade Ukraine it looks like Ukrainians are really in for one hell of a winter. Probably best to avoid a trip out there at the moment. Looking like Krimster's predictions could be coming true.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Chelseaboy on November 12, 2021, 08:48:55 AM
Russia has now sent paratroopers into Belarus,whilst we're now sending troops into Poland.


Looks like the build-ups in Eastern Europe are accelerating amid warnings from the USA and UK about Russian forces building up on the Ukraine border.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Trenchcoat on November 13, 2021, 02:52:48 AM
Russia has now sent paratroopers into Belarus,whilst we're now sending troops into Poland.


Looks like the build-ups in Eastern Europe are accelerating amid warnings from the USA and UK about Russian forces building up on the Ukraine border.

Some think Putin is just making mischief. Belarus is unhappy at EU sanctions against it and is causing the migrant problem some say to get back at EU sanctions against it. The EU is looking to create an EU army with around 5,000 soldiers towards 2025 so that it can act independently abroad where it needs without the unanimous agreement if all member states. It's still got to go through the EU Member states for approval. I personally think it is too small and doesn't answer the problem the EU has in its border at home namely Russia. At the moment it's still NATO picking up the can and is of course this time. Belarus is threatening to cut gas supplies to Europe also.

So whether they are just staying all of this to get concessions who knows? Last time it was possibly about sanctions on the Baltic sea pipeline from Russia to Germany. It looked like it may have got them lifted. Don't know if this is all about getting sanctions on its neighbour Belarus lifted, seems a lot of bother for that.

It looks like Russia has cut some lines that can detect submarines from Norway:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10196799/Norwegian-undersea-surveillance-network-capable-detecting-submarines-cables-cut.html

Possibly they are gearing up for an Invasion of Ukraine to some extent. All depends on whether they make a move this time or another phoney war. Some say Russia has been left feeling humiliated and weak from its USSR days where it held a lot more territory and it wants some of that territory back. Others say that territory could be more of a burden on its economy than much of a help. I can't see them taking over large amounts of territory with NATO doing nothing though. Will have to wait and see if they actually make a move this time.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Chelseaboy on November 13, 2021, 01:20:45 PM
15,000 Polish troops have been deployed to the border with Belarus....just 20 miles from where Russian Paratroopers landed.


8.500 Ukrainian troops have been deployed to the border with Russia.


USA Vice President Kamala Harris says the USA is" looking at the tools it has" after a day of rapid-fire developments.


Meanwhile UK fighter jets were scrambled to see off two Russian bombers close to the UK....again.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Boethius on November 13, 2021, 01:36:45 PM
The deployment of Polish troops is due to the migrant crisis Lukashenko has created.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Chelseaboy on November 13, 2021, 01:48:46 PM
Harris has spoken with Macron and says "On the issue of Belarus and what is happening at the border with Poland we are very concerned about that and closely paying attention to it."


Pity she's not so concerned about the illegal migrants flooding into the UK....aided by Macron,with French warships filmed shadowing the migrants into UK waters.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Trenchcoat on November 13, 2021, 05:01:11 PM
I don't think we'll have any concerns about Russian troops crossing into Poland, we've sent out 10 of our troops to Poland to see them off. I very much doubt they'll be able to top that.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Trenchcoat on November 17, 2021, 12:08:20 AM
Brexit Britain taking full advantage of the situation in Ukraine to boost its Naval sales :D

http://news.sky.com/story/uk-signs-deal-to-help-boost-ukraines-navy-in-the-face-of-increased-threat-from-russia-12470490

More jobs and money brought into the country by this one :)
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Trenchcoat on November 20, 2021, 03:06:21 AM
President Zelensky is no longer the popular boy he once was with Ukrainians more interested in other matters than a pretty boy with a cheesy smile:

http://www.thedailybeast.com/a-covid-19-crisis-and-putins-war-push-ukraine-to-breaking-point

Covid still hitting Ukraine hard at the moment, Russian tanks on the border looking set to move in and of course colder temperatures now hitting Ukraine with gas being a problem to get hold off.

http://www.euractiv.com/section/global-europe/interview/analyst-eu-must-force-gazprom-to-supply-gas-to-russia-ukraine-border/
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Trenchcoat on November 22, 2021, 11:35:35 AM
Latest reports on the Russia/Ukraine situation. A Ukrainian General reckons Russia may invade around January time, plan your dating trips carefully guys ;D Can't think what Kherson girl would be thinking now with Russian tanks amassed on the border, from the article it looks like the Russians could come in from every which way!

http://www.google.com/amp/s/www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10229427/amp/Russia-preparing-INVADE-Ukraine-end-January-Kiev-General-warns.html
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Boethius on November 22, 2021, 11:45:59 AM
She's probably thinking "Maybe I will meet a handsome young soldier.  Thank goodness I didn't weigh myself down with that middle aged British idiot who thought buying me goods worth a day of wages should result in eternal gratitude."
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Trenchcoat on November 22, 2021, 02:45:18 PM
She's probably thinking "Maybe I will meet a handsome young soldier.  Thank goodness I didn't weigh myself down with that middle aged British idiot who thought buying me goods worth a day of wages should result in eternal gratitude."

Lol, during WWII enemy soldiers invading into a country often meant that the local girls were going to be met with rape. I'm sure though we are living in more enlightened times now, perhaps.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Chelseaboy on November 22, 2021, 02:51:48 PM
She's probably thinking "Maybe I will meet a handsome young soldier.  Thank goodness I didn't weigh myself down with that middle aged British idiot who thought buying me goods worth a day of wages should result in eternal gratitude."


I'm sure all young women who's country is about to be invaded by another country think they may meet a handsome young soldier. :rolleyes:


German women were very well-treated by the invading Soviet forces weren't they ?


Estimates are that up to 2 million German women were raped by Soviet soldiers.


According to historian William Hitchcock many of the women were raped up to 60 or 70 times.


Let's hope the rapists were all young and handsome eh ? :rolleyes:
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Boethius on November 22, 2021, 02:58:54 PM
There are Ukrainian soldiers as well.


First, I doubt rather highly that Russia is readying an invasion of Ukraine.  Second, no matter what is stated, these peoples, other than in Western Ukraine, largely think of themselves as one. 
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Chelseaboy on November 22, 2021, 03:07:59 PM
There are Ukrainian soldiers as well.


First, I doubt rather highly that Russia is readying an invasion of Ukraine.  Second, no matter what is stated, these peoples, other than in Western Ukraine, largely think of themselves as one.


If there is an invasion Ukrainian soldiers will be too busy fighting for their lives to be interested in chasing a  bit of totty.


Tanks rolling down toward you will be a bit of a passion killer.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Boethius on November 22, 2021, 03:13:47 PM
Stories from WWII suggest that's inaccurate.  Plus, there isn't going to be an invasion.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: ML on November 22, 2021, 04:36:37 PM
German women were very well-treated by the invading Soviet forces weren't they ?

Soviet forces 'invaded'  Germany ???

Did USA forces also invade Germany ?
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: ML on November 22, 2021, 04:37:56 PM

Estimates are that up to 2 million German women were raped by Soviet soldiers.

What are the estimates of Soviet women raped by German soldiers earlier in the war ?
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Chelseaboy on November 22, 2021, 05:30:13 PM
German women suffered the largest mass rape in history  ...this was from Soviet soldiiers...google it and read it for yourself.


SOVIET war correspondent Natalya Gesse said Soviet soldiers were raping females from eight to eighty.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Rosco on November 23, 2021, 03:55:50 AM
For what it's worth, I cant see an invasion happening. In fact it sounds absurd.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Boethius on November 24, 2021, 01:21:25 PM
It's not absurd.  It is unlikely, but a decade ago, so was a Russian invasion of Crimea, and so was Russian backed forces shooting a European plane full of civilians out of the sky.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Rosco on November 24, 2021, 02:59:27 PM
It's not absurd.  It is unlikely, but a decade ago, so was a Russian invasion of Crimea, and so was Russian backed forces shooting a European plane full of civilians out of the sky.

A couple of debatable things said above but without getting into those discussions again, I guess I’m saying that I’d bet my virtual house on an invasion, not happening.

Time will tell.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Trenchcoat on November 25, 2021, 10:23:29 PM
British troops moving into Germany, looks like things are hotting up:

http://www.ft.com/content/1c56235e-dcc6-4505-851c-8e904b46339b

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/british-army-returns-to-germany-in-face-of-russian-threat-bhs7lmnsv
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Trenchcoat on November 26, 2021, 10:54:27 AM
Possible Russian dirty tricks going down in Ukraine:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10245811/amp/Russia-plotting-coup-Ukraine-December-Ukranian-president-makes-dramatic-speech.html

Might be the least bloodiest way out for them if it did go down.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Trenchcoat on December 06, 2021, 04:09:57 PM
More news on further troop build up on Ukraine's border:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10279477/Ukraine-Russia-border-Satellite-images-reveal-Putins-troop-build-continues.html

They reckon early 2022 for an Invasion. What are the odds an Invasion might take place on New Year's Day or possibly even Christmas Day?
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Trenchcoat on December 06, 2021, 11:14:43 PM
An interesting article on the current state of affairs on the Ukrainian front line:

http://www.nytimes.com/2021/12/06/world/europe/ukraine-russia-war-front.html

Looks like the sh*t could really hit the fan soon.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Chelseaboy on December 07, 2021, 02:48:03 PM
It's now making headline news on both the BBC and Sky News...the general feeling seems to be the talks today between Biden and Putin haven't really de-escalated the situation.


Putin has made demands and was basically told to do one.


The Sky reporter in Washington reported that there WILL be NATO ( including USA ) military boots on the ground in Ukraine if Russia invades.It won't be the same situation as when Russian troops invaded Crimea,and all the west did was impose economic sanctions on Russia.


NATO troops will also build-up in former FSU countries such as Latvia.


USA is said to have an understanding with Germany that the Nord Stream 2 pipeline will be shut if Russia invades Ukraine.


Seems NATO has had a gutful of Putin's posturing.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: ML on December 07, 2021, 08:51:52 PM

USA is said to have an understanding with Germany that the Nord Stream 2 pipeline will be shut if Russia invades Ukraine..

And here I thought Germany and some other European countries needed that gas.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Trenchcoat on December 08, 2021, 01:18:12 PM
It's now making headline news on both the BBC and Sky News...the general feeling seems to be the talks today between Biden and Putin haven't really de-escalated the situation.


Putin has made demands and was basically told to do one.


The Sky reporter in Washington reported that there WILL be NATO ( including USA ) military boots on the ground in Ukraine if Russia invades.It won't be the same situation as when Russian troops invaded Crimea,and all the west did was impose economic sanctions on Russia.


NATO troops will also build-up in former FSU countries such as Latvia.


USA is said to have an understanding with Germany that the Nord Stream 2 pipeline will be shut if Russia invades Ukraine.


Seems NATO has had a gutful of Putin's posturing.

I'm not sure how many troops NATO has stationed out there but my guess is that it may well be too few to go up against Russia's army if it came to that. A few thousand troops scattered here and there isn't likely to be enough is my thinking. I reckon that the US, UK, etc need to mobilise and move a lot of troops over to form an army strong enough to stand a chance of stopping Russian troops. Otherwise they could either be sat watching on the sidelines in the EU or be wiped out by superior numbers.

My guess is that they really need to move into Ukraine in big numbers if not already (which I doubt) as otherwise Russia's army will likely easily overun Ukraine's without Ukraine inflicting enough damage. If that scenario goes down then pointlessly losing Ukraine's army may make winning all the harder.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: JohnDearGreen on December 08, 2021, 09:24:43 PM
If that scenario goes down then pointlessly losing Ukraine's army may make winning all the harder.
The goal of the moment is to create instability, not to take Ukraine.   The buildup cost Putin $130 million, but he can afford it.  More debt borrowing for Ukraine.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: GQBlues on December 09, 2021, 05:48:04 AM
The Sky reporter in Washington reported that there WILL be NATO ( including USA ) military boots on the ground in Ukraine if Russia invades.

NATO, lol. Since when did Ukraine become a NATO member?

You get a democrat back at the WH, and here we are, and there goes Victoria Nuland back in Kiev continuing what ‘we’ (US) started in 2014.

I can only hope Biden’s dementia stays true to form and Hunter is too busy milking China’s cow so they won’t waste any American kids life anymore halfway around our globe. No blood for oil and all that talk, remember? Hell, if any, let antifa volunteer, even blm. Do an Obama move. Just keep the media out of it, and bomb the crap out of Russia and take over the country, Libya style. Oh wait, Russia have more guns than Libya. Lol.

Does no one even see the irony in this? For almost two years your politicians got most of you so scared of dying, they had you and your lot submit to an experimental soup injected in your bodies yet, in a moment’s whim and greed, they won’t hesitate to send you or your lot get your brains blown out fighting for their zany political gamesmanship.

If Europe wanna grab Ukraine’s market as their own, let them sacrifice their vaccinated kids for their politicians gain. Outside of the UK, I seriously doubt any of them have the fortitude stupidity to do so, LMAO.

Georgia is a much smaller nation than Ukraine, they stood up to Russia with no ones help, sheeesh. They got smoked but at least they are still a free country today. Me hopes they leave Ukraine alone. They wanna be free from Russia, let them fight for it. Let Georgia be their inspiration.

Plus remember what happened at the onset of the civil war, at their darkest moment when Ukraine soldiers desperately needed supplies like food, arms, accessories, etc. The US sent them things like MREs, night vision goggles, etc. Guess what happened to them? Yup, it hit the black market. That should clearly tell you what you’re dealing with.

Besides, the reality is, trying to help and save Ukraine from Russia only renders Ukraine ripe for China. Out…fire…frying pan. I mean look at the case with Italy. Italy is now merely renting their country from its new landlord - China. In some ways, the US is heading in the same direction. Give Hunter some time and we can be there in no time at all.

Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: fathertime on December 09, 2021, 07:57:36 AM

Besides, the reality is, trying to help and save Ukraine from Russia only renders Ukraine ripe for China. Out…fire…frying pan. I mean look at the case with Italy. Italy is now merely renting their country from its new landlord - China. In some ways, the US is heading in the same direction. Give Hunter some time and we can be there in no time at all.

I haven't been keeping track.   In what way does china own so much of Italy? 
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: fathertime on December 09, 2021, 08:26:19 AM
NATO, lol. Since when did Ukraine become a NATO member?

You get a democrat back at the WH, and here we are, and there goes Victoria Nuland back in Kiev continuing what ‘we’ (US) started in 2014.

 

I'm not sure what we really have to offer Ukraine.  "Made in China" goods, that enrich mostly china with a little cut to the US companies.     Of course I have read that we are threatening the nord stream 2 if russia makes one false move. That way we can get back to selling our expensive natural resources to europe. 

Fathertime! 

Fathertime!
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: GQBlues on December 09, 2021, 09:39:25 AM
I'm not sure what we really have to offer Ukraine.  "Made in China" goods, that enrich mostly china with a little cut to the US companies.     Of course I have read that we are threatening the nord stream 2 if russia makes one false move. That way we can get back to selling our expensive natural resources to europe. 

Fathertime! 

Fathertime!


None. Who said we have anything to offer Ukraine other than be a Russian PITA? The same way Russia made CUBA one for us.

But China can certainly chomp at the bits. Not too many places in the world that is as arable as Ukraine. Perfect place to harvest their love of their scared tofu, and raise pigs. Ever had the delicious Tofu with Pork? Yum, baby! China already owns 13 million hectare of Ukraine's farm land. That's literally 9% of Ukraine's farmland, LMAO. This way they won't have to rely on the US & Brazil for soy imports. It'll be cheaper in Ukraine, and with another 40+ million consumer to buy Chinese goods - win, win baby.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: ML on December 09, 2021, 10:51:02 AM
China already owns 13 million hectare of Ukraine's farm land. That's literally 9% of Ukraine's farmland, LMAO.

Are you sure of this ?
I think lease rather than own as Ukraine still has prohibition against foreign ownership of farm land.

Even just today over breakfast wifey was telling of her concern about her inheritance of farm land when her parents pass away given her USA citizenship.  But if Ukraine gets around to overturning their law against dual citizenship, she will be in the clear.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: GQBlues on December 09, 2021, 11:21:33 AM
Are you sure of this ?
I think lease rather than own as Ukraine still has prohibition against foreign ownership of farm land.

Even just today over breakfast wifey was telling of her concern about her inheritance of farm land when her parents pass away given her USA citizenship.  But if Ukraine gets around to overturning their law against dual citizenship, she will be in the clear.


It probably depends on whom you ask. Ukraine will likely tell you the deal was a 50-year lease. For China, OTOH, it's an outright ownership, as in 'it's bought' and paid for. Then there's the missing *000*s. China believes its 3,000,000 hectare, while Ukraine (KSG Agro) insists it's a mere 3,000.


 :P


http://www.businessinsider.com/chinas-disputed-deal-to-farm-5-of-the-ukraine-2013-9 (http://www.businessinsider.com/chinas-disputed-deal-to-farm-5-of-the-ukraine-2013-9)

http://www.scmp.com/news/china/article/1314902/ukraine-become-chinas-largest-overseas-farmer-3m-hectare-deal?module=perpetual_scroll_0&pgtype=article&campaign=1314902 (http://www.scmp.com/news/china/article/1314902/ukraine-become-chinas-largest-overseas-farmer-3m-hectare-deal?module=perpetual_scroll_0&pgtype=article&campaign=1314902)

http://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/china-claims-to-have-bought-a-huge-chunk-of-ukraine-41509/
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: GQBlues on December 20, 2021, 09:50:44 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JrMiSQAGOS4
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Boethius on December 20, 2021, 04:25:20 PM

It probably depends on whom you ask. Ukraine will likely tell you the deal was a 50-year lease. For China, OTOH, it's an outright ownership, as in 'it's bought' and paid for. Then there's the missing *000*s. China believes its 3,000,000 hectare, while Ukraine (KSG Agro) insists it's a mere 3,000.

http://www.businessinsider.com/chinas-disputed-deal-to-farm-5-of-the-ukraine-2013-9 (http://www.businessinsider.com/chinas-disputed-deal-to-farm-5-of-the-ukraine-2013-9)

http://www.scmp.com/news/china/article/1314902/ukraine-become-chinas-largest-overseas-farmer-3m-hectare-deal?module=perpetual_scroll_0&pgtype=article&campaign=1314902 (http://www.scmp.com/news/china/article/1314902/ukraine-become-chinas-largest-overseas-farmer-3m-hectare-deal?module=perpetual_scroll_0&pgtype=article&campaign=1314902)

http://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/china-claims-to-have-bought-a-huge-chunk-of-ukraine-41509/ (http://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/china-claims-to-have-bought-a-huge-chunk-of-ukraine-41509/)

By law, agricultural land in Ukraine can be leased, but not sold, to foreigners.  In fact, even Ukrainian citizens could not own large tracts of land before July 1, 2021.  The law was changed on that date to allow Ukrainians to own up to 100 hectares of land.  Sales to foreigners are still prohibited, and the law can only be changed by referendum.  So, the land is leased no matter what the Chinese say they believe.

Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Trenchcoat on January 09, 2022, 09:01:12 PM
So it looks like it's all up this month or so on whether anything will happen about Ukraine:

http://news.sky.com/story/ukraine-nato-prepares-for-possible-russian-invasion-as-diplomats-fear-talks-will-fail-12512624

If talks fail then who knows possibly some sort of invasion in February maybe. The article seems to think it may be a limited invasion, maybe they are thinking just into the Donbass. That however I think would show Russia as invading territory with its own troops and taking what is not theirs. Currently they have been fighting that war by proxy so that would be a hostile stance for just a small piece of territory likely provoking full scale sanctions and possibly a new cold war.

So if the stakes are high might Putin go for more, if he invades Donbass then Ukraine's military could likely see itself as facing no alternative but to take them on as best as possible. So possibly might Russia take the whole of eastern Ukraine or all of Ukraine?
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Chelseaboy on January 12, 2022, 11:14:23 AM
After a four hour meeting with Russians today..things are not looking good.


NATO's Secretary General Mr Stoltenberg said after talks had finished that there is a "real risk for a new armed conflict in Europe" but that the Alliance "will do what we can to prevent any such scenario ".


"If Russia once more uses force against Ukraine and further invades Ukraine then we have to seriously look into the need to further increase our presence in the eastern part of the Alliance."









Meanwhile there are reports that Russia has been flying Helicopters to the Ukrainian border to airlift troops into Ukraine after mild weather has transformed the normally rock-hard frozen ground at this time of year into a muddy quagmire in which the Russian Tanks cannot roll into Ukraine.




Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Trenchcoat on January 12, 2022, 03:29:38 PM
After a four hour meeting with Russians today..things are not looking good.


NATO's Secretary General Mr Stoltenberg said after talks had finished that there is a "real risk for a new armed conflict in Europe" but that the Alliance "will do what we can to prevent any such scenario ".


"If Russia once more uses force against Ukraine and further invades Ukraine then we have to seriously look into the need to further increase our presence in the eastern part of the Alliance."









Meanwhile there are reports that Russia has been flying Helicopters to the Ukrainian border to airlift troops into Ukraine after mild weather has transformed the normally rock-hard frozen ground at this time of year into a muddy quagmire in which the Russian Tanks cannot roll into Ukraine.

Looks like Ukraine's luck is in with the mud CB. If Ukraine has any sense they'll try adding to it as best they can. It probably won't be enough to stop Russia's army but it may put them off if it looks like they will get an awkward time of it.

Looks like NATO is just threatening to load up troops on the bordering nations if Ukraine is invaded then and not intervene in Ukraine. I'm not sure that is going to be enough as it's more or less saying they are going to stand by on the side lines.

Mixed messages still coming if Russia will invade or not, NATO's position on the side lines seems pretty set now.

Possibly Russia may run out of steam in terms of moving towards an Invasion. Can't see there is much for Russia to gain now unless they really are intent on invading Ukraine, NATO isn't seeming ready to do deals or keep out the border states. My guess is if Russia's army stays put in the coming days/weeks then there may be a good chance they going to invade as otherwise they've nothing to gain by sitting there if they aren't getting anything from NATO.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Trenchcoat on January 12, 2022, 04:08:57 PM
Thinking this through a bit more I reckon there could be pretty good chance Russia may invade. If Putin isn't going to get what he wants out of NATO then they've essentially called his bluff, if he is bluffing then he'll pull his troops away, that's going to cause him embarrassment though, possibly humiliation. In the summer he stuck more to the exercises excuse but this time he's been telling Ukraine/the west that they are there because of NATO's expansion as he see's it.  If he backs down and pulls troops this time for the second time he's lost and that manoeuvre won't work again unless he really does invade. So it may push him towards invading, Ukraine is essentially there for the taking now that NATO says it is going to stand by, so it's just the Russian army against Ukraine's army. Ukraine's army probably won't last long on that score. They've got arms and training from the west in recent years so may cause Russia's army some damage but ultimately they're a lot weaker than Russia's army.

Possibly Russia may wait to see if the mud will dry but odds are they could invade pretty soon. That's not great for me of course as if Ukraine becomes Russian I'll need to pay for a visa to visit. Belarus is difficult & more expensive to get to so that leaves just Georgia, pretty religious apparently and the stans further away so more time and expense there.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: John Gaunt on January 12, 2022, 10:22:37 PM
Thinking this through a bit more I reckon there could be pretty good chance Russia may invade. If Putin isn't going to get what he wants out of NATO then they've essentially called his bluff, if he is bluffing then he'll pull his troops away, that's going to cause him embarrassment though, possibly humiliation. In the summer he stuck more to the exercises excuse but this time he's been telling Ukraine/the west that they are there because of NATO's expansion as he see's it.  If he backs down and pulls troops this time for the second time he's lost and that manoeuvre won't work again unless he really does invade. So it may push him towards invading, Ukraine is essentially there for the taking now that NATO says it is going to stand by, so it's just the Russian army against Ukraine's army. Ukraine's army probably won't last long on that score. They've got arms and training from the west in recent years so may cause Russia's army some damage but ultimately they're a lot weaker than Russia's army.

Possibly Russia may wait to see if the mud will dry but odds are they could invade pretty soon. That's not great for me of course as if Ukraine becomes Russian I'll need to pay for a visa to visit. Belarus is difficult & more expensive to get to so that leaves just Georgia, pretty religious apparently and the stans further away so more time and expense there.
Trench, stop thinking....
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Chelseaboy on January 13, 2022, 10:33:13 AM


Possibly Russia may wait to see if the mud will dry but odds are they could invade pretty soon. That's not great for me of course as if Ukraine becomes Russian I'll need to pay for a visa to visit. Belarus is difficult & more expensive to get to so that leaves just Georgia, pretty religious apparently and the stans further away so more time and expense there.


Have you thought about Serbia ?


English is widely spoken there.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Trenchcoat on January 13, 2022, 03:03:53 PM

Have you thought about Serbia ?


English is widely spoken there.

Nope, that's a good thought of yours on the surface of it CB. Serbia aren't in the EU and if they speak English then a viable option. Only problem is on Fdate they are very few women on there, only two in the 29-39 age category, non smoker, without children and with photo, and they've been on there a fair number of days ago.

Main problem at the moment is that I'm running out of women who I see as possiblities in Ukraine and that is if continues to exist as Ukraine. You'd think that they would be cramming onto Fdate with an economy which must be wreaked now because of the virus and with the Russians knocking at their door staring oblivion in the face, but no.

I can see the possibility of girls of the former Eastern Bloc countries coming back onto the market in future years now that the UK have left the EU and with the EU now struggling with its debt:

http://www.politico.eu/article/eu-plans-to-tax-its-way-out-of-recovery-debt/

Poland, Hungary and recently even Romania have been having fall outs with the EU. I think that now the money is running out and what amounts as further corporate taxes rise by the EU plus the realisation that it could take decades to make inroads into paying off the debt well good chance they'll leave. Even if not the desire to get in with a UK guy & the UK may be a bit of a pull.

For me I'll chomp on with Ukraine & Fdate for the time being. Keep thinking off VK but never really been able to utilise that one for dating to date.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Jumper1 on January 13, 2022, 06:15:57 PM
If Russia takes ukraine by force, exactly how long until they take Belarus, czech rep,etc
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Trenchcoat on January 13, 2022, 09:18:50 PM
If Russia takes ukraine by force, exactly how long until they take Belarus, czech rep,etc

Think the idea at the moment is if Russia take Ukraine then NATO will immediately move up a lot of its forces to the border of Poland, Slovakia, Hungary, Romania, Moldova and the Baltic States with Russia. Belarus is close enough aligned to Russia for Putin to not be too concerned there.

That will bring a new Iron Curtain down with it just being shifted further west than the old one. Once Russia takes Ukraine they probably won't want to give it up by negotiating with NATO for it to pull back it's forces. NATO will say it's in response to Russian Invasion of Ukraine. Russia won't likely attack the new line drawn in the sand as NATO forces will already be there.

Odds are under such a scenario is that Finland will join NATO also since if Ukraine is taken they will fear being next with history being what it is.

NATO of course will be committed to defending along that new iron curtain otherwise the risk is being pushed however far back Russia wishes. Who will come of the winner of there is one in such an event who knows. Like I say unlikely I think at least. Russia going into Ukraine there could be a fair chance of that happening as said earlier to my mind at least.

If the talks break down Russia could see it as their issues have not been resolved over NATO expansion, etc and invade Ukraine. Could be the real thing this time. Not sure how Ukrainian girls on the ground feel about it. They'll be in the firing line unless they can refugee it in time over the border to the EU especially now they have reasonably easy tourist visa free access.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: fathertime on January 13, 2022, 10:57:35 PM
Think the idea at the moment is if Russia take Ukraine then NATO will immediately move up a lot of its forces to the border of Poland, Slovakia, Hungary, Romania, Moldova and the Baltic States with Russia. Belarus is close enough aligned to Russia for Putin to not be too concerned there.

That will bring a new Iron Curtain down with it just being shifted further west than the old one. Once Russia takes Ukraine they probably won't want to give it up by negotiating with NATO for it to pull back it's forces. NATO will say it's in response to Russian Invasion of Ukraine. Russia won't likely attack the new line drawn in the sand as NATO forces will already be there.

 
I do not think Russia is going to do very much in Ukraine, let alone the rest of the nations you mentioned.   

Fathertime!   
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Trenchcoat on January 15, 2022, 12:57:58 AM
I do not think Russia is going to do very much in Ukraine, let alone the rest of the nations you mentioned.   

Fathertime!

Well according to latest thinking they reckon Russia could invade within days!

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10404745/Fears-grow-Vladimir-Putin-stage-fake-attacks-troops-justify-Russian-invasion.html

So a false flag operation as a pretext to invade a bit like Japan's excuse to invade China before WWII. A recent cyber attack on Ukraine's government website signalling a possible prelude to an attack. Putin is now an old man at 69 years so I doubt he cares too much as he's only likely got so long left. NATO have essentially left Ukraine to be hung out to dry by not moving in troops so Putin may well take a gamble and see if it can be easily taken.

At the moment I'm messaging a Ukrainian girl who lives about in the middle of Ukraine. I've just messaged her back asking how she feels about the situation with Russian forces out there, not the most romantic message to send I guess but it's pretty relevant at the moment. I don't know if anyone here has any word from Ukrainians on the ground out there but I'm guessing it can't be a great feeling for them. Potentially at any point Russia could invade and all sh*t is likely to break loose. Russia is likely to give it all it's got including unleashing it's weapons of mass destruction onto both the Ukrainian army and the local population, huge big missiles, massive loss of life I'm guessing.

Western nations I think know that their own people won't support any NATO action in Ukraine certainly not by going to fight themselves or any children, family, etc of theirs. We don't have a cohesive or good enough society these days in which many people feel invested enough to stand up for and fight. A guy in western society looking around him today only has the offering of fat women, career women that are competing against him for jobs that he needs to make him worthy in the eyes of women, women having the upper hand in terms of family & divorce courts, etc. With all of that most guys will walk and I somehow doubt the career women will want to step into the breach even if only to pose for Instagram photos of themselves in combat gear. Nope Ukraine invasion and new iron curtain looks on the cards to my mind.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Chelseaboy on January 15, 2022, 08:15:46 AM
You can't blame western people for not being interested in fighting for Ukraine.


The only people who have any interest are a few blokes trying to avoid the pro-daters and scammers out there in finding a potential wife.


I wouldn't want my 23 year-old son being sent out there to fight and quite possibly get killed.


Are you going out there to fight Trench ?


I know a few Brits did when Russian separatists tried to take the Donbas region.


The only thing i feel the west ,and in particular the USA and UK ,have let Ukraine down with is the Budapest Memorandum as we're not honouring it by sitting on the sidelines.


I can imagine there'll be quite a few Ukrainian hotties heading for Poland .
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Davo on January 15, 2022, 08:50:40 AM
I’ve chatted with a couple of Russian friends.... Both think Putin won’t cross the boarder and is just posturing for western attention....  He’ll keep playing war games on the border and it will eventually amount to a non-event.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Boethius on January 15, 2022, 02:05:37 PM
Why does he need Western attention?  This is all for internal consumption, not Western attention. 
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Davo on January 15, 2022, 04:22:10 PM
Why does he need Western attention?  This is all for internal consumption, not Western attention.

You’re right, but I’ve seen enough state run tv to see he uses western media and events like the NATO summit on this issue as propaganda. He relies on western reactions to build a wall between his citizens and the west.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Trenchcoat on January 15, 2022, 04:36:18 PM
You can't blame western people for not being interested in fighting for Ukraine.


The only people who have any interest are a few blokes trying to avoid the pro-daters and scammers out there in finding a potential wife.


I wouldn't want my 23 year-old son being sent out there to fight and quite possibly get killed.


Are you going out there to fight Trench ?


I know a few Brits did when Russian separatists tried to take the Donbas region.


The only thing i feel the west ,and in particular the USA and UK ,have let Ukraine down with is the Budapest Memorandum as we're not honouring it by sitting on the sidelines.


I can imagine there'll be quite a few Ukrainian hotties heading for Poland .

I don't blame your son for not wanting to fight for my sex life in Ukraine CB :D

Seriously Ukraine was stupid to give up those Nukes, they wouldn't have lost Crimea or faced the problems in the Donbass or the threat of Russian Invasion had they not done so. Literally there was nothing to stop Ukraine from holding onto them they didn't have to agree but they are a foolish mistake and made their country a weakling as a result. As you rightly say the Budapest Memorandum is not being honoured is proving useless.

I won't be going out there to fight for Ukraine and I don't expect an other westerner too. The first girl I met in Kiev, a pretty and tall blonde girl from Mariupol told me she had no interest in it all, to her the civil war was all between oligarchs fighting for power. She had even asked me for a first class train ticket as she didn't want to mix with soldiers in second class lol. I did of course there was little difference to me and of course second class train travel out there is not great being often cramped with others, pretty much all natives. Anyhow I get the impression that a lot of the women won't stay around for loyalty sake out there, they'll most likely run to the EU border and over. My impression is their loyalty to men is not great our there and they tend to regard themselves as superior social status.

End of the day if Putin takes Ukraine then yes Ukrainian girl hotties in Poland who are displaced may be a good place to hunt :) I'm not sure how the EU is going to fair long term, they've taken on a lot of debt due to the virus so if member states become discontent who knows.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Trenchcoat on January 15, 2022, 04:55:14 PM
I’ve chatted with a couple of Russian friends.... Both think Putin won’t cross the boarder and is just posturing for western attention....  He’ll keep playing war games on the border and it will eventually amount to a non-event.

He pulled away last Summer but that was under the pretext that it was a 'training exercise' that and it sounds like he had some sanctions lifted so he could finish his oil pipeline, Nordstream.

This time the training exercise wasn't mentioned and he has stated his issues with NATO and has been kind of threatening military intervention. With NATO saying they will stand on the sidelines it kind of leaves him with an invite to invade almost. Unless Putin has something to walk away with he'll look weak and cowardly like he has lost. He won't want to keep doing that. NATO has basically sat still not giving him anything to walk away with and not moving in to protect Ukraine either.

Possibly he might be able to climb down slowly over time by moving troops away bit by bit but I'm not sure if withdrawing will be easy for him without something to show for it. Obviously NATO don't want to just give into his demands they need something in return but at the moment they are hanging Ukraine out to dry as not important enough to fight over, possibly not but it can't be very heartening for many Ukrainians.

I think both Russians and Ukrainians will have their own opinions with many probably thinking it won't happen because it hasn't done so before in the past three decades. I kind of think that is complacent thinking. Let's say Putin invades and he suffers the highly unlikely outcome that his forces do not do well, he's essentially got not a lot to lose, Russia is highly unlikely to lose any territory, hIs position may be at risk but he's getting on now anyway. On the opposite side if he wins and takes Ukraine, as is the likely outcome then he will be seen as securing his place in history for Russia and reverse some of the embarrassment of the loss of the USSR.

I'm guessing this is one for the bookies as at the moment it seems a real toss up.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Trenchcoat on January 15, 2022, 10:35:57 PM
One interesting thing about this all actually is why does Russia only have around 100,000 soldiers on Ukraine's border. Russia's army apparently amounts to more than a million soldiers. I'm not saying they couldn't accomplish it with the troops they have, Ukraine has a bit over 100,000 soldiers in all they can field but Russia has far greater weaponry. My guess is that Russia would focus on using their missiles to take out a lot of Ukraine's military before moving ground forces in so they wouldn't necessarily need a lot of troops. Still invading & holding a country I would imagine would be better to have a lot more ground troops at hand. I guess they can move more in later but still interesting that they haven't moved more in up front I'm thinking.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Trenchcoat on January 17, 2022, 10:51:00 PM
Just a late night thought. If this thing does kick off with Ukraine and Russia it could leave many single girls for us western guys as most soldiers are male. A terrible thought I know but we live in a world of uncertainty but also of logic. End of the day anything can happen to anyone.

Back in the day part of the MOB reasoning for more women to men was previous wars but as time passed that obviously became less so and reasons such as alcoholism, drugs, cold winter, general health/living standards, unemployment, crime, etc became more likely explanations. If this war does kick of proper then the the war element may once again take greater prominence.

Apparently the UK has just shipped some anti-tank rocket launcher stuff to Ukraine's army and is showing them how it all goes down. The Germans want no part in it and are refusing RAF flights over Germany, think it's the planes delivering the stuff. Guessing the Germans are nder the Russians thumb a bit with the new gas pipeline, etc.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Davo on January 17, 2022, 11:25:17 PM
There’s actually a shortage of women until age 40.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Trenchcoat on January 18, 2022, 12:06:27 AM
http://www.nytimes.com/2022/01/17/us/politics/russia-ukraine-kyiv-embassy.html

Russia moving out it's Embassy staff, I'm doubting this is just a bluff, could well be prelude to a Russian Invasion.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Trenchcoat on January 18, 2022, 04:49:59 PM
Some overall news of the situation:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10415817/amp/White-House-says-Russian-invasion-Ukraine-come-point.html

Apparently Ukraine is calling up 130,000 reservists to bolster it's existing troops so all to play for.

My guess is that I doubt Russia is doing all of this just over NATO expansion issues. They seem to be going a bit overboard for all of that if anything causing themselves a lot of ill-feeling over the all their activities. My bets are placed on this being the real thing. Likely when the ground hardens which will probably align with their preparations being complete they'll move in. So probably days to a week or two away.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Chelseaboy on January 19, 2022, 05:24:45 AM
Ukraine now has 251.000 troops and 900,000 reservists.


It's going to be a bloodbath for Putins troops if they invade,could be a Stalingrad in reverse for them.....although Sea and Air superiority will probably eventually see a Russian victory.


But at what cost to the Russian people and economy.?


Will be interesting to see what Poland does if Russia does invade Ukraine...there is no love for Russia there,and they are pretty close to the Ukrainians,and of course a false flag operation involving Poland would mean NATO having to put boots on the ground against Russia...that's all it takes and this is how situations escalate.


Could be why Germany is terrified of getting involved ..showing mad Vlad what good little citizens they're being for him.Sadly for them they'll have no choice if NATO does get involved.


Poland won't want to see Russian influence growing on their borders....and with all the unrest and turmoil within Belarus's population i'm not sure their troops will be up for getting involved.


The USA seems to think Putin is going to attack Kiev through Belarus.If so that would leave Russian troops exposed to any potential attacks on their rear from Polish troops and cutting them off.


By attacking Ukraine Putin could bring his worst fears to fruition,with NATO attacking Russia from many  positions.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: fathertime on January 19, 2022, 08:16:35 AM
Ukraine now has 251.000 troops and 900,000 reservists.


It's going to be a bloodbath for Putins troops if they invade,could be a Stalingrad in reverse for them.....although Sea and Air superiority will probably eventually see a Russian victory.


But at what cost to the Russian people and economy.?

I believe had Russia wanted to attack Ukraine they would have done it very quickly and with surprise on their side.      Nowadays no large nation like Russia would allow itself to get into a war where they would suffer substantial casualties as it seems would be the case in Ukraine.   

Russia doesn't seem to be that desperate a nation, so there is little need to change the dynamics much, the US appears to be more desperate which begs the question of what is REALLY going on behind the scenes.
Fathertime!   
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: GQBlues on January 19, 2022, 09:45:30 AM
If Ukraine would like independence from Russia, they have the right to repulse Russia and fight & die for their independence. American kids need not die unnecessarily anymore for our politician and military complex's agendas. Ukraine's kids can and should die for their freedom.


Europeans want to monopolize additional market in Ukraine, like they involved us in Libya (that country is still a wasteland full of chaos and mayhem, while Europeans are skimming its oil).


I'm tired of this 21st century European colonialism. The difference between now and then is the US had become its mercenarial stooge to do the killing and dying for them.


Live DC conference about Ukraine..


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eyy8ZOHtGGQ
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Boethius on January 19, 2022, 10:26:56 AM
Ukraine already is independent.  So a Russian invasion would be an invasion of a sovereign nation.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: GQBlues on January 19, 2022, 11:21:11 AM
Ukraine already is independent.  So a Russian invasion would be an invasion of a sovereign nation.


Great! They can then do whatever it takes to preserve it. This is NOT an American affair. No American should die for that cause. Not one..


Europe want to expand their market to support their unsustainable internal societal social programs, then they should sacrifice their kids for a change.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: GQBlues on January 19, 2022, 11:21:44 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lmxoSYq-Ufc
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Chelseaboy on January 19, 2022, 11:51:25 AM

Great! They can then do whatever it takes to preserve it. This is NOT an American affair. No American should die for that cause. Not one..


Europe want to expand their market to support their unsustainable internal societal social programs, then they should sacrifice their kids for a change.


Doesn't the Budapest Memorandum make this a USA and UK affair ?


and no, as i've stated on here before, i don't want my 23 year-old son sent out there to fight.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Chelseaboy on January 19, 2022, 12:06:32 PM
Wow....10-15,000 Americans living in Ukraine.


I wonder how many to get killed by Russian invading troops/Airstrikes to get USA troops on the ground there ?
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: GQBlues on January 19, 2022, 12:43:35 PM

Doesn't the Budapest Memorandum make this a USA and UK affair ?

Exactly. Neither countries should not have instigated, involved itself and participated in the 2014 Ukraine instability that prompted the civil war. To believe moving to expand NATO in Russia's doorstep and not have Russia consider that a threat to its sovereignty, is being shortsighted and not consider what the US did in the Cuban missile crisis.

Quote
and no, as i've stated on here before, i don't want my 23 year-old son sent out there to fight.

As it should be.


Quote
It is illogical to assume that Moscow should view comparable Western machinations differently. The blunt truth is that the United States and its allies intruded into a traditional Russian sphere of influence—indeed, into a zone that Moscow considers essential to national security. U.S. leaders should recognize that their conduct has violated an implicit Russian equivalent of the Monroe Doctrine. The West needs to back off before it triggers what former Soviet leader Mikhail Gorbachev aptly described in a recent speech as a new Cold War.
http://www.defenseone.com/ideas/2014/12/us-needs-recognize-russias-monroe-doctrine/100557/ (http://www.defenseone.com/ideas/2014/12/us-needs-recognize-russias-monroe-doctrine/100557/)

The 4 Principle of the Monroe Doctrine:

1. The United States would remain neutral in European affairs and not get involved in European conflicts.
2. The United States would not interfere with current European colonies in the Western Hemisphere.
3. No European nation would be allowed to establish a new colony in the Western Hemisphere.
4. If a European nation would try to interfere with a nation in the Western Hemisphere, the United States would view that as a hostile act and respond accordingly.

The US still regard this doctrine as valid as recently as the '90s.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Trenchcoat on January 19, 2022, 03:55:53 PM

Doesn't the Budapest Memorandum make this a USA and UK affair ?


and no, as i've stated on here before, i don't want my 23 year-old son sent out there to fight.

I'm not sure on the ins & outs either of the Budapest Memorandum. It sounds like to me all sides, US, UK, RUSSIA, etc just all jointly agreed to keep out of Ukraine. Obviously Russia is threatening to ignore that agreement with their invasion and has already done so to sone extent with their involvement in East Ukraine and takeover in Crimea. So the 'assurances' given that all would keep out of Ukraine were essentially useless. For once I'm feeling sorry for Ukrainians being duped into such a foolish move, thought they were more streetwise than that, feel they have kind of been played for fools.

Anyhow from the brief stuff I've read don't think there was necessarily anything to underpin it or others coming to their aid. Sounds like it was all about good intentions that amount to not very much.

I personally would be in favour of sending all our fat women over there. They can bear their flabby rears at the Russians until they can take no more and be forced to withdraw >:(
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Trenchcoat on January 19, 2022, 04:04:47 PM
Wow....10-15,000 Americans living in Ukraine.


I wonder how many to get killed by Russian invading troops/Airstrikes to get USA troops on the ground there ?

I'm surprised there are so many Americans living in Ukraine, guess it must have caught on among them how lovely it is for the women there. With a good income/independent income a good life can be had there. There a guy can be way up the pecking order with the women on what is just a low or average salary in the UK/US.

I'm guessing the Americans and any other foreigners will flee beforehand or when it happens (assuming it happens). I think we can safely assume a fair amount will be caught unawares and be there when/if it all goes down and wonder why there are always those types around. It will be like in the movies with the US guys shouting out that they are American citizens and waving their passports around as if of high importance and as if anyone cares.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Trenchcoat on January 19, 2022, 04:33:24 PM
Latest is that Russia could send more troops to the Ukrainian border which of course they could having more than a million soldiers to call upon:

http://news.sky.com/story/amp/ukraine-us-warns-russia-could-double-troop-numbers-on-border-at-short-notice-and-launch-attack-12520202

Other than that it looks like they are sending six large naval ships to the Black Sea/Ukraine. They've just passed the UK and it's pretty certain they are going that way.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10417951/Six-Russian-landing-ships-sail-past-Britain-sparking-speculation-bound-Ukraine.html


My guess is that if the Russians invade Kyiv and Kharkiv will be primary targets as both are real bear the Russian border so large key cities to take that are close with reach. Kyiv important as the largest city, capital and seat of power, Kharkiv as second largest city and tank manufacturer as I'm sure we all know. With both cities being so close to the Russian border odds on they will fall first and pretty quickly. In which case I can rest easy calling Kyiv, Kiev again and Kharkiv, Kharkov ;D. Unfortunately for Ukraine the geography as an independent state doesn't seem to favour them with an attack from Russia. Losing your two biggest cities likely within days if not hours is not good. If they are strong enough to keep them away and get the Russians bogged down then they will be doing very well I think but that I think is probably highly unlikely.

After that there is Odessa but I believe Russia still has some troops around Moldova, Nikolaev & Kherson are near Crimea so all three probably won't last long. Possibly if Ukraine can hold up the Russians in the bottleneck in Crimea they might slow them but it looks like the Russians may do amphibious landings, possibly parachute drops. That just leaves Central and western Ukraine and while a few fairly large cities there not a lot to work with. Odds are Russia may well start with missile attacks which Ukraine apparently doesn't have a lot of defence against then they'll move in with their troops if it all goes ahead. I can't personally see why they would be going to all this bother just for posturing.

I personally think Ukraine's military would likely fold pretty quickly under such an onslaught. Being blown to bits by missiles first then the heavy Russian armour moves in. Odds are what little may be left of Ukraine's army may run in the face of such overwhelming firepower and destruction. It could all be over fairly swiftly within a week or so with little time or ability for Ukraine to call forward reserves because of Russia's army advancing so quickly. That how I would see it likely unfolding I think.

Personally I would much rather Ukraine go on existing as an independent state. I personally think they would be best being given sone nukes back for that to happen. Unfortunately that would likely breach the nuclear non-proliferation treaty.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Chelseaboy on January 19, 2022, 04:54:22 PM
I'm surprised there are so many Americans living in Ukraine, guess it must have caught on among them how lovely it is for the women there. With a good income/independent income a good life can be had there. There a guy can be way up the pecking order with the women on what is just a low or average salary in the UK/US.

I'm guessing the Americans and any other foreigners will flee beforehand or when it happens (assuming it happens). I think we can safely assume a fair amount will be caught unawares and be there when/if it all goes down and wonder why there are always those types around. It will be like in the movies with the US guys shouting out that they are American citizens and waving their passports around as if of high importance and as if anyone cares.


Well the Americans are not living there for the lovely climate are they.


I've been in Kiev in November and it was freezing with the wind cutting through you like a knife..flew back to London and everyone was wearing t-shirts and shorts in the warm sunshine.


Seems Ukraine has become the new Thailand,presumably with Odessa as the new Bangkok,full of old and fat Americans shacked up with young strippers ( bar girls ).
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: rwd123 on January 19, 2022, 05:19:29 PM
I'm no military strategist but there's questionable value in an armed invasion so I doubt it.

The primary intent of the RF is to repel NATO. With an existing internal conflict and dishonoring of the Minsk Protocol, Ukraine cannot become a member of NATO. A similar but not identical incident occurred with Georgia back in 2008.

In an all-out war the RF is equipped with operational hypersonic missiles and ICBMS, and has the world's best air defense systems (S-500). It's also shown itself to be competent in Syria (particularly in comparison to the USA military). Europe would be screwed as it would collapse economically with no Russian energy. The RF economy is more resilient due to existing sanctions so, while it would suffer, comparatively would be better placed. Current inflationary pressures may push the price of energy products (oil, gas) well above current prices. RF prefers hybrid warfare using propaganda, cyber attacks, demographics, and trade flows. China does the same thing, as does the USA (though less in terms of demographics). Both sides will prefer to play dirty games than enter a hot war.

Western powers are prodding the RF as the global banking system is utterly broken, western countries are indebted and failing. They need to create enemies - either with an invisible enemy (Covid and "anti-vaxxers") or a visible one ("evil Russians"). Don't worry you won't own anything and you'll like it as your immune system is utterly destroyed after your seventh booster shot.

This is a conflict provoked by the West that will ultimately be won by the East. Blinken and co. are playing a game of chicken... who do you think will blink first?





Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Trenchcoat on January 19, 2022, 05:31:27 PM

Well the Americans are not living there for the lovely climate are they.


I've been in Kiev in November and it was freezing with the wind cutting through you like a knife..flew back to London and everyone was wearing t-shirts and shorts in the warm sunshine.


Seems Ukraine has become the new Thailand,presumably with Odessa as the new Bangkok,full of old and fat Americans shacked up with young strippers ( bar girls ).

Odessa draws many Americans, I went there a few years ago and saw a fair few Americans obviously out to try their luck. The cities on the coast can have a climate more like the UK during the winter but Kyiv being further to the north likely less so. Odessa's advantage tends to be that many Turks visit which few Ukrainian girls like, even despise so us western guys can come off as a way more attractive option. As usual there is the industry girls and scammers which is supposedly big there but apart from possibly Lviv/western Ukraine is elsewhere, Nikolaev, Kyiv, Kharkiv probably Kherson. Odessa has a lovely feel to it and a nice beach, though a bit overcrowded, etc. If I were living abroad in Ukraine it would likely be where I would base myself, not too far to the border if the Russians attack and there is time to drive, train or run for it, good weather, the beach, good shops, pretty enough looking in the city centre, just about large enough to get a fair amount of women up or get some across from Nikolaev, Kherson, etc.

By comparison Lviv a nice touristy medieval city centre but no beach, a bit too small to get many women up and risk of Russian armies quickly coming down from Belarus even though near the Polish border. No other reasonably large cities nearby to get many girls up and fewer interested in leaving due to it being Ukraine's patriotic centre and nice natural surroundings, a slight western feel to the city.

Kiev very Urban city like, I like it but I prefer Odessa more I think, been there a few times now. A lot of the women there are more wealthy so likely expecting more, big city life. Some living on the outskirts be ok. Likely to be over run pretty fast as so close to the Russian border so mass panic likely to ensue possibly be hit by many missiles also so I would avoid.

Above all I wouldn't risk a plane journey out a very high risk gamble with life if any do indeed fly, very likely to get shot down by the Russians.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Trenchcoat on January 19, 2022, 06:09:45 PM
I'm no military strategist but there's questionable value in an armed invasion so I doubt it.

The primary intent of the RF is to repel NATO. With an existing internal conflict and dishonoring of the Minsk Protocol, Ukraine cannot become a member of NATO. A similar but not identical incident occurred with Georgia back in 2008.

In an all-out war the RF is equipped with operational hypersonic missiles and ICBMS, and has the world's best air defense systems (S-500). It's also shown itself to be competent in Syria (particularly in comparison to the USA military). Europe would be screwed as it would collapse economically with no Russian energy. The RF economy is more resilient due to existing sanctions so, while it would suffer, comparatively would be better placed. Current inflationary pressures may push the price of energy products (oil, gas) well above current prices. RF prefers hybrid warfare using propaganda, cyber attacks, demographics, and trade flows. China does the same thing, as does the USA (though less in terms of demographics). Both sides will prefer to play dirty games than enter a hot war.

Western powers are prodding the RF as the global banking system is utterly broken, western countries are indebted and failing. They need to create enemies - either with an invisible enemy (Covid and "anti-vaxxers") or a visible one ("evil Russians"). Don't worry you won't own anything and you'll like it as your immune system is utterly destroyed after your seventh booster shot.

This is a conflict provoked by the West that will ultimately be won by the East. Blinken and co. are playing a game of chicken... who do you think will blink first?

I disagree, while Russia enjoys it's game of dirty tricks I think Putin is eager to use his shiny new army. Most of Russia's old Soviet weaponry has been replaced by the latest advanced weaponry. I would guess Russia is at the height of its military rejuvenation of its replacement of old equipment with new equipment. The west the impression I get is in a more piecemeal situation, some older stuff, some newer, both varying capability. Added to that they have said they won't send in NATO troops. While that keeps us out of a WWIII situation (for now most likely) it means that Russia is presented with an almost certain clear decisive win if they go into Ukraine. Notice Russia hasn't backed off or stayed the same since they made this announcement but has in fact increased its military presence around Ukraine, ships sent to Black Sea, military sent for war games exercises in Belarus, more troops overall, etc. It's basically giving Putin the green light to attack Ukraine. Putin is getting towards being an old man now at 69 and after ruling Russia for 20 years he wants to get somewhere with it all aside a better economy and a few small gains. His looking for his place in the history books and for that taking back lost territory as he likely sees it is the sure way to do it.

You're right in the west's back being up against the wall with its indebtedness, the US couldn't afford to go on in Afghanistan so it tells Putin they can't afford a military adventure in Ukraine for long. The rest of the west is in much the same situation, the EU just can't get it together, it never really has effectively much on any front but it can't even agree with itself or members on a tiny army of a few thousand men that would be largely be way too small anyway. It has an agreement if one member is attached the rest will go to it's aid. I don't think Putin will attack an EU country as NATO tends to cover some EU countries anyway so it would likely bring the whole lot against him. I don't think he's too bothered about them, they are small each alone and not necessarily that Russian, Ukraine however I think is very much in his sights.

My guess is that after Ukraine, Georgia will be next, soft easy targets first.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Trenchcoat on January 19, 2022, 06:27:45 PM
Current UK travel advice for Ukraine:

29th Dec 2021 - valid to today

"Since late March 2021, there has been a pattern of Russian military build-ups near Ukraine’s eastern border and in illegally annexed Crimea. Since the beginning of November 2021 there has been significant media coverage of heightened tensions between Russia and Ukraine.

The situation in Kyiv and other areas outside Donetsk and Luhansk is generally calm. However, events in Ukraine are fast moving. Make sure you are ready to change your plans quickly if you need to. You should remain vigilant throughout Ukraine, monitor the media and this travel advice regularly, subscribe to email alerts and read our advice on how to deal with a crisis overseas. You should keep your departure plans under close review. Renewed military action anywhere in Ukraine would greatly reduce British Embassy Kyiv’s ability to provide consular support."

Personally I think it should just say do not travel and get out if already in Ukraine. It does however say you need to try and get out quick if needed although the situation may be fast moving. Also as a result can't necessarily rely on embassy support.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: fathertime on January 19, 2022, 08:03:47 PM
I'm no military strategist but there's questionable value in an armed invasion so I doubt it.

The primary intent of the RF is to repel NATO. With an existing internal conflict and dishonoring of the Minsk Protocol, Ukraine cannot become a member of NATO. A similar but not identical incident occurred with Georgia back in 2008.

In an all-out war the RF is equipped with operational hypersonic missiles and ICBMS, and has the world's best air defense systems (S-500). It's also shown itself to be competent in Syria (particularly in comparison to the USA military). Europe would be screwed as it would collapse economically with no Russian energy. The RF economy is more resilient due to existing sanctions so, while it would suffer, comparatively would be better placed. Current inflationary pressures may push the price of energy products (oil, gas) well above current prices. RF prefers hybrid warfare using propaganda, cyber attacks, demographics, and trade flows. China does the same thing, as does the USA (though less in terms of demographics). Both sides will prefer to play dirty games than enter a hot war.

Western powers are prodding the RF as the global banking system is utterly broken, western countries are indebted and failing. They need to create enemies - either with an invisible enemy (Covid and "anti-vaxxers") or a visible one ("evil Russians"). Don't worry you won't own anything and you'll like it as your immune system is utterly destroyed after your seventh booster shot.

This is a conflict provoked by the West that will ultimately be won by the East. Blinken and co. are playing a game of chicken... who do you think will blink first?

I agree with this analysis.  The US enjoys creating trouble for russia and provoking.  Probably part of their plan to disrupt Nordstream 2.  That way, we can sell our products for higher prices. 

In addition, I suspect Russia could unleash a blitzkrieg and level practically all of Ukraine before even entering the country if it wanted to.    The worldwide consequences would be too great for them to do that though.
 

Fathertime!   
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Trenchcoat on January 20, 2022, 12:43:01 AM
I agree with this analysis.  The US enjoys creating trouble for russia and provoking.  Probably part of their plan to disrupt Nordstream 2.  That way, we can sell our products for higher prices. 

In addition, I suspect Russia could unleash a blitzkrieg and level practically all of Ukraine before even entering the country if it wanted to.    The worldwide consequences would be too great for them to do that though.
 

Fathertime!   

Blitzkrieg is exactly what I think the Russians have on their cards and what they will do. They have the forces built up just for that. They don't care about the international community, they have a big enough internal market they already have sanctions so more won't harm them that much possibly the west such as Germany just as much. I fire see them hammering Ukrainian forces with missiles all at once everywhere. They may even hit the cities, if they do it will likely be all of the big major ones all at the same time. Ukraine forces won't know what hit them. The tanks and army and the rest will then move in and Ukraine will be hit so hard and fast they won't have time to regroup and organise reserves, panic will ensue and they'll flee.

Ukrainians are presently thinking under the assumption that they have already been fighting Russia's army since 2014. I think they vastly underestimate what Russia's army is really like, they haven't really been hit by their army to date, no big missiles, very few heavy tanks, etc. When/if they do they are going to be annilalated fast in very large numbers. I don't think they'll withstand it.

If anything Ukraine needs to bring up all its reserves now possibly even conscription to have the armies behind the front line armies ready which it will need. It will also need to space these troops out so they aren't taken out all in one by a missile. In addition they should organise guerilla groups of fighters, cells led by at least one trained army guy if not more of local population volunteers. Have stashes of weapons located in fairly remote locations in the ground that only the cell leaders will know where they are. Once Ukraine is over run by Russia these cells become active and move to action. Make Ukraine like another Afghanistan is the only way to do it I reckon.

Putin doesn't want to see Ukraine become any sort of NATO linked state. He'll see the only way to do that is to attack and conquer Ukraine. Trust me odds are that he'll move in. Ukraine's army as it stands at the moment is still way too weak to withstand a Russian attack they really need to throw everything they've got into it now to stand any chance. 40 something odd million people in Ukraine and most of them are complacently sat on their todd, the Ukrainian government need to get them into action.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Chelseaboy on January 20, 2022, 06:05:32 AM
I don't see a blitzkrieg where major cities in Ukraine would be targeted.


The reason being there are probably millions of pro-Russians/Russians living in those cities and killing them would cause huge ramifications for Putin..with riots in Russia's cities.


It would make him a target of assassination attempts for sure.


Imagine you're a Russian in Moscow with family in Ukraine and Putin has just wiped them out..how would you react ?


I know how i'd react.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Chelseaboy on January 20, 2022, 11:39:38 AM
The UK is understood to have gifted 2000 of The Next Generation Light Anti-Tank Weapon ( NLAW),which is described by its manufacturers as "the first ever single soldier missile system that rapidly knocks out any main battle Tank in just one shot by striking it from above "to Ukraine this week.


So,that will be the Russian Tanks out of the game...their Tank crews will be crapping themselves right about now : ))



Russia ain't happy about it LOL.


The Russian Embassy to the UK posted on twitter "It is crystal clear that UK shipment of lethal weapons to Ukraine will only fuel the crisis ".


As if them sticking 100,000 troops on the Ukrainian border hadn't already fueled the crisis. :rolleyes:


So come on USA we're doing our bit..it's time for you to step up too instead of your President saying he believes Russia is going to invade Ukraine and doing nothing about it....or is your leader going to dither and show Putin how weak the President of the USA truly is.?
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: GQBlues on January 20, 2022, 01:40:04 PM
As if them sticking 100,000 troops on the Ukrainian border hadn't already fueled the crisis. :rolleyes:


So come on USA we're doing our bit..it's time for you to step up too instead of your President saying he believes Russia is going to invade Ukraine and doing nothing about it....or is your leader going to dither and show Putin how weak the President of the USA truly is.?

The US should give a sh1t about this, or Ukraine, because...?

Do you honestly believe your country, or the US, would tempt a bloody conventional war at the least, or worst a nuclear war - over Ukraine? LMAO!

Elaborate your response please. Especially since Germany had already expressed no interest in any diplomatic or any type of economic sanctioning - much less military assistance (despite the EU primarily benefitting and salivating over the economic potential at getting Ukraine's consumers) against Russia - regardless of what RF does.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Chelseaboy on January 20, 2022, 02:45:28 PM
The US should give a sh1t about this, or Ukraine, because...?



Because of the Budapest Memorandum.


Or are you happy for the rest of the World to realize the word of the USA is worthless regarding future talks with other countries  about Nuclear Arms de-escalation.?




Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Chelseaboy on January 20, 2022, 02:54:59 PM

Do you honestly believe your country, or the US, would tempt a bloody conventional war at the least, or worst a nuclear war - over Ukraine? LMAO!

Elaborate your response please. Especially since Germany had already expressed no interest in any diplomatic or any type of economic sanctioning - much less military assistance (despite the EU primarily benefitting and salivating over the economic potential at getting Ukraine's consumers) against Russia - regardless of what RF does.


As you're so concerned about a nuclear war ,just remember countries like North Korea will see how the USA stood by and let Russia take over Ukraine,IF the invasion happens, despite the Budapest Memorandum,,,,so NO chance of them ever giving up their Nuclear Arms as Ukraine did...making the World a more dangerous place.


Germany had no part in the Budapest Memorandum....the USA and the UK did.





That's why the USA needs to give a shit....maybe you need to read up on it.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: GQBlues on January 20, 2022, 04:17:03 PM

Because of the Budapest Memorandum.

LMAO!

1. Budapest is a Nuclear Proliferation Treaty. Both the UK/US should have kept their noses off and not interfere in Ukraine's affairs. Their internal interference in 2014 Ukraine was a hostile act towards Russia.
2. Whether you realize this or not, if there ever was ANY SERIOUS interest in any military engagement with Russia because of any 'so-called' violation of the treaty', wake-up as there actually was a military conflict, and a territorial take-over of Ukraine back in 2014/2015. Did you see any UK/US enforcement of the treaty? LMAO!!!

Monroe Doctrine much?


Quote
Or are you happy for the rest of the World to realize the word of the USA is worthless regarding future talks with other countries  about Nuclear Arms de-escalation.?

You must've been napping under a snow cave in the polar region in recent 2-3 decades.

Besides, who the phuck cares what the 'world' thinks of the US.

Whatever happened to EUROs silly huffing and puffing 'no blood for oil' BS?
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: GQBlues on January 20, 2022, 04:18:16 PM

As you're so concerned about a nuclear war ,just remember countries like North Korea will see how the USA stood by and let Russia take over Ukraine,IF the invasion happens, despite the Budapest Memorandum,,,,so NO chance of them ever giving up their Nuclear Arms as Ukraine did...making the World a more dangerous place.

Germany had no part in the Budapest Memorandum....the USA and the UK did.

That's why the USA needs to give a shit....maybe you need to read up on it.


LMAO!! Go send your kid ASAP! Show us your conviction dude! The Russians are coming!!!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rdUb0FxGbOo
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: GQBlues on January 20, 2022, 05:23:09 PM
Sheeesh..even Ukrainians themselves are working with Russia!!! LMAO!

http://apnews.com/article/joe-biden-vladimir-putin-ukraine-europe-russia-9c2e340dc7f23f58c2b05391dae37275 (http://apnews.com/article/joe-biden-vladimir-putin-ukraine-europe-russia-9c2e340dc7f23f58c2b05391dae37275)


To think Chelseaboy is dead set in sending his kid into this quagmire to prove his conviction, baby! Funny.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Trenchcoat on January 20, 2022, 05:29:17 PM
I don't see a blitzkrieg where major cities in Ukraine would be targeted.


The reason being there are probably millions of pro-Russians/Russians living in those cities and killing them would cause huge ramifications for Putin..with riots in Russia's cities.


It would make him a target of assassination attempts for sure.


Imagine you're a Russian in Moscow with family in Ukraine and Putin has just wiped them out..how would you react ?


I know how i'd react.

For me 50/50 chance that they do or don't. Theoretically it's best to have reasonably intact cities and industry when taking over territory that way it's economy isn't smashed with you having to rebuild it. The way the population feels is another factor you highlight, they are going to hate Putin/Russia if they kill their family especially as civilians on the other hand it may I instill fear useful for control. Odds are it may make the region harder to control with resistance building up.

The history of Russia tends to them not giving much care however, in the 20s or 30s I think it was that Ukraine suffered a famine and many died as a result of early forced collectivisation failures. I don't think the Russians cared much about that. Then of course all the state repression of later years, surpressing the Cossacks etc. While many Ukrainians are ethnic Russians in the East they may well identify as Russian speaking Ukrainians. Putin is a cold KGB guy my guess is that he has little care for who they are, if they end up in the way with Ukrainian fighters seeking the cities for cover where there is more protection and can bed in to fight easier in the buildings then he could well let those missiles fly and be damned whether they hit soldiers or civilians.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Trenchcoat on January 20, 2022, 05:48:25 PM
The UK is understood to have gifted 2000 of The Next Generation Light Anti-Tank Weapon ( NLAW),which is described by its manufacturers as "the first ever single soldier missile system that rapidly knocks out any main battle Tank in just one shot by striking it from above "to Ukraine this week.


So,that will be the Russian Tanks out of the game...their Tank crews will be crapping themselves right about now : ))



Russia ain't happy about it LOL.


The Russian Embassy to the UK posted on twitter "It is crystal clear that UK shipment of lethal weapons to Ukraine will only fuel the crisis ".


As if them sticking 100,000 troops on the Ukrainian border hadn't already fueled the crisis. :rolleyes:


So come on USA we're doing our bit..it's time for you to step up too instead of your President saying he believes Russia is going to invade Ukraine and doing nothing about it....or is your leader going to dither and show Putin how weak the President of the USA truly is.?

Those anti tank missiles/rocket launchers may help to up the casualties the Russians sustain and make it a harder, longer, bloodier fight. Many may well be taken out by Russia hitting Ukrainians army en-masse with missiles but with 2000 being gifted many soldiers with them might well avoid the missile strikes and be able to fire back when the Russian tanks roll forward.

Hopefully all this military weaponry we are gifting the Ukrainians will stand us eager young(ish) bucks in favour with Ukrainians if we ever get out there again ;D
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Chelseaboy on January 20, 2022, 06:12:24 PM
Sheeesh..even Ukrainians themselves are working with Russia!!! LMAO!

http://apnews.com/article/joe-biden-vladimir-putin-ukraine-europe-russia-9c2e340dc7f23f58c2b05391dae37275 (http://apnews.com/article/joe-biden-vladimir-putin-ukraine-europe-russia-9c2e340dc7f23f58c2b05391dae37275)


To think Chelseaboy is dead set in sending his kid into this quagmire to prove his conviction, baby! Funny.


You seem to be shitting yourself over there..scared you'll get called-up and sent to Ukraine to fight ? LMAO.


Don't worry,seeing as you seem to lack reading comprehension,no-one is talking about NATO military engagement/ boots on the ground as part of the Budapest Memorandum....the USA and UK just needs to make sure the Ukrainians are armed sufficiently to defend themselves which the UK is doing.


As i said in the original post,before you started having your nervous breakdown about military engagements involving the USA and UK, when is the USA going to step up and do the same ?


By the way it's common knowledge there are plenty of pro-Russian Ukrainians in Ukraine...who do you think the Ukrainian troops have been fighting for the last eight years in Ukraine ?...Do keep up.LMAO.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: GQBlues on January 20, 2022, 06:21:30 PM

You seem to be shitting yourself over there..scared you'll get called-up and sent to Ukraine to fight ? LMAO.


Don't worry,seeing as you seem to lack reading comprehension,no-one is talking about NATO boots on the ground as part of the Budapest Memorandum....the USA and UK just needs to make sure the Ukrainians are armed sufficiently to defend themselves which the UK is doing.


As i said in the original post,before you started having your nervous breakdown, when is the USA going to step up and do the same ?
.

Another stuck in first gear. Speaking of reading comprehension issues, sheesh. Get with it, will you? LMAO!

That’s what happens when the mouth is faster than the brain. Wake up, you shouldn’t be opining over things that which you’re obviously clueless with.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/opinion/editorials/ct-edit-ukraine-20171226-story.html?outputType=amp
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Chelseaboy on January 20, 2022, 06:34:50 PM
That was four years ago....and what's happened since ?


I assume you did check the date of that article ? LMAO.


The arms you supplied helped the Ukrainians to fight some pro-Russian terrorists,which the article clearly says ...talking about reading comprehension .LMAO


Where's the arms to fight 100,000 Russian troops and Tanks and Bombers and Fighter Aircraft ?


At the risk of repeating myself....do keep up.


Tick Tock.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: GQBlues on January 20, 2022, 07:00:53 PM

You seem to be shitting yourself over there..scared you'll get called-up and sent to Ukraine to fight ? LMAO.


Don't worry,seeing as you seem to lack reading comprehension,no-one is talking about NATO military engagement/ boots on the ground as part of the Budapest Memorandum....the USA and UK just needs to make sure the Ukrainians are armed sufficiently to defend themselves which the UK is doing.


As i said in the original post,before you started having your nervous breakdown about military engagements involving the USA and UK, when is the USA going to step up and do the same ?


By the way it's common knowledge there are plenty of pro-Russian Ukrainians in Ukraine...who do you think the Ukrainian troops have been fighting for the last eight years in Ukraine ?...Do keep up.LMAO.

I don’t mean to humiliate you publicly but do tell, since you keep bringing up the silly Budapest Memorandum as your silly sticking point, where exactly does it say the US or the UK, is in anyway obligated to arm Ukraine?

Here are the 6 contents of that memorandum. Entertain me since English is your native language:

Quote
Respect Belarusian, Kazakh and Ukrainian independence and sovereignty in the existing borders.

Refrain from the threat or the use of force against Belarus, Kazakhstan and Ukraine.

Refrain from using economic pressure on Belarus, Kazakhstan and Ukraine to influence their politics.

Seek immediate Security Council action to provide assistance to Belarus, Kazakhstan and Ukraine if they "should become a victim of an act of aggression or an object of a threat of aggression in which nuclear weapons are used".

Refrain from the use of nuclear arms against Belarus, Kazakhstan and Ukraine.
Consult with one another if questions arise regarding those commitments.
.

This time, do yourself a favor and think before you post.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: fathertime on January 20, 2022, 07:25:21 PM
The UK is understood to have gifted 2000 of The Next Generation Light Anti-Tank Weapon ( NLAW),which is described by its manufacturers as "the first ever single soldier missile system that rapidly knocks out any main battle Tank in just one shot by striking it from above "to Ukraine this week.

Now that these weapons are all over Ukraine, I wonder how long before that technology winds up in Russian/Chinese hands.    Since I'm not a believer that Russia is going to be attacking Ukraine, there has to be some secondary gains they are vying for.  Perhaps this is one of many of those gains. 

Fathertime!   
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Trenchcoat on January 20, 2022, 08:04:25 PM
Ukraine now needs so anti missile intercept missiles. That is desperately needed to nullify Russia taking out a lot of Ukraine's army in one fell swoop with lots of missile strikes on them. They then stand a chance of holding off the Russian troops a hell of a lot longer than being over run by them pretty quickly I reckon. Whether any of the stuff the Russians get their hands on eventually who knows, most technology gets pretty old quick anyway and they probably have their own similar versions it's not like there a nation playing technology catch up anymore as I see it.

My guess is that the Russians will launch an attack as soon, or soon after those six large naval ships they sent reach the Black Sea, no point in launching an attack before they get there with reinforcement from them several days away as I see it. Looks like the time it will take them to get there is probably around a week at a guess, so in about a week's time or so. So as many predict around the beginning of February perhaps.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Chelseaboy on January 21, 2022, 07:27:39 AM
I don’t mean to humiliate you publicly but do tell, since you keep bringing up the silly Budapest Memorandum as your silly sticking point, where exactly does it say the US or the UK, is in anyway obligated to arm Ukraine?

Here are the 6 contents of that memorandum. Entertain me since English is your native language:
.

This time, do yourself a favor and think before you post.





If anyone has humiliated himself on this thread that would be you .


1) You're the guy who started waffling on during your panic attack about USA military engagement with Russia,including possible Nuclear attacks,over Ukraine...no-one else...you.


2) You're the one who claimed i'd be happy for my son to fight in Ukraine when i had stated twice on here previously that i do NOT want my son out there fighting...so you can stop your lying BS .


3) You're the one who attempted to hold up Germany as an example of non-help through the Budapest Memorandum when in fact they were not involved with the Budapest Agreement.


4)You're the one who held up Trump sending some arms to Ukraine in 2017 to help the fight against Ukrainian pro-separatists as an example of helping Ukraine NOW against 100k Russian troops on their border.


On every point you've been made to look a fool  and your tactic is to try and deflect your foolishness by switching to something else.


That doesn't work with me sonny boy.


We can all see the kind of person you are with your statement about why should the USA give a shit about Ukraine.


Now,regarding the Budapest Memorandum and back to my point in post 215 about why the USA needs to give a shit....you see i preempted you yet again...go back and read it again so it sinks in this time.


"Under the agreement the signatories offered Ukraine "security assurances".
Whether or not the Memorandum sets out legal obligations the difficulties that Ukraine has encountered since early 2014 may cast doubt on the credibility of future security guarantees that are offered in exchange for non proliferation commitments."

Now..security assurances don't just mean the USA and UK won't attack Ukraine..it also means we will do what we can to protect the sovereignty of Ukraine.
Standing by and watching Russia invade Ukraine,which you want the USA to do, isn't protecting the sovereignty of Ukraine.
So the UK has sent 2000 anti-Tank missiles to Ukraine this week plus military personnel to train the Ukrainian troops how to use them....and we've gifted these missiles.
Now what has Biden done ..apart from talking hot air.?

I suggest you read properly what i post in future as it becomes tiresome having to repeat myself to you as if i'm talking with a child.



Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Chelseaboy on January 21, 2022, 07:53:09 AM
Ukraine now needs so anti missile intercept missiles. That is desperately needed to nullify Russia taking out a lot of Ukraine's army in one fell swoop with lots of missile strikes on them. They then stand a chance of holding off the Russian troops a hell of a lot longer than being over run by them pretty quickly I reckon. Whether any of the stuff the Russians get their hands on eventually who knows, most technology gets pretty old quick anyway and they probably have their own similar versions it's not like there a nation playing technology catch up anymore as I see it.

My guess is that the Russians will launch an attack as soon, or soon after those six large naval ships they sent reach the Black Sea, no point in launching an attack before they get there with reinforcement from them several days away as I see it. Looks like the time it will take them to get there is probably around a week at a guess, so in about a week's time or so. So as many predict around the beginning of February perhaps.


I agree that Ukraine needs those missiles and also SAM systems to help defend against Russian aircraft.


They may already have these...who knows ?


If not maybe the USA/Biden might actually do something instead of just talking.


The World is watching and taking note of who stepped-up when needed....the Brits have.


Putin is watching and seeing who's weak and who isn't.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: GQBlues on January 21, 2022, 07:55:47 AM

If anyone has humiliated himself on this thread that would be you .


1) You're the guy who started waffling on during your panic attack about USA military engagement with Russia,including possible Nuclear attacks,over Ukraine...no-one else...you.


2) You're the one who claimed i'd be happy for my son to fight in Ukraine when i had stated twice on here previously that i do NOT want my son out there fighting...so you can stop your lying BS .


3) You're the one who attempted to hold up Germany as an example of non-help through the Budapest Memorandum when in fact they were not involved with the Budapest Agreement.


4)You're the one who held up Trump sending some arms to Ukraine in 2017 to help the fight against Ukrainian pro-separatists as an example of helping Ukraine NOW against 100k Russian troops on their border.


On every point you've been made to look a fool  and your tactic is to try and deflect your foolishness by switching to something else.


That doesn't work with me sonny boy.


We can all see the kind of person you are with your statement about why should the USA give a shit about Ukraine.


Now,regarding the Budapest Memorandum and back to my point in post 215 about why the USA needs to give a shit....you see i preempted you yet again...go back and read it again so it sinks in this time.


"Under the agreement the signatories offered Ukraine "security assurances".
Whether or not the Memorandum sets out legal obligations the difficulties that Ukraine has encountered since early 2014 may cast doubt on the credibility of future security guarantees that are offered in exchange for non proliferation commitments."

Now..security assurances don't just mean the USA and UK won't attack Ukraine..it also means we will do what we can to protect the sovereignty of Ukraine.
Standing by and watching Russia invade Ukraine,which you want the USA to do, isn't protecting the sovereignty of Ukraine.
So the UK has sent 2000 anti-Tank missiles to Ukraine this week plus military personnel to train the Ukrainian troops how to use them....and we've gifted these missiles.
Now what has Biden done ..apart from talking hot air.?

I suggest you read properly what i post in future as it becomes tiresome having to repeat myself to you as if i'm talking with a child.

So what you’re saying is you’re really clueless. The memorandum content were clearly laid out to you, so instead of just covering subject points and concisely elaborate within it, you instead gave your personal idiotic rambling that have ZERO to do with the subject at hand. Resorting to 5,000 words nonsense did not deflected from this obvious fact about your stupidity.

Now run along child. You’re obviously way in over your head. Don’t let your tucked tail trip you over. Idiot.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Chelseaboy on January 21, 2022, 08:03:12 AM
So what you’re saying is you’re really clueless. The memorandum content were clearly laid out to you, so instead of just covering subject points and concisely elaborate within it, you instead gave your personal idiotic rambling that have ZERO to do with the subject at hand. Resorting to 5,000 words nonsense did not deflected from this obvious fact about your stupidity.

Now run along child. You’re obviously way in over your head. Don’t let your tucked tail trip you over. Idiot.

Like I told


Err no they were not my personal ramblings idiot.


I suggest you read Wiki,..the point i made about credibility in my previous post to you was taken word for word from there .


Once again you've shown what a fool you are LMAO.


It's clear the UK Government agrees with me...despite all your idiotic ramblings...and i'd back them over some clueless nobody posting on a forum :rolleyes:



Now chew on that dopey.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Chelseaboy on January 21, 2022, 09:19:34 AM
Those anti tank missiles/rocket launchers may help to up the casualties the Russians sustain and make it a harder, longer, bloodier fight. Many may well be taken out by Russia hitting Ukrainians army en-masse with missiles but with 2000 being gifted many soldiers with them might well avoid the missile strikes and be able to fire back when the Russian tanks roll forward.

Hopefully all this military weaponry we are gifting the Ukrainians will stand us eager young(ish) bucks in favour with Ukrainians if we ever get out there again ;D





You might want to get out there quick.


I've just watched the BBC news and their correspondent in Kiev said the British are particularly popular in Ukraine now after our gift of the 2000 anti-Tank missiles to them


Wear a Union Jack tie or something and you'll be feted as a hero out there..Ukraine fathers offering their daughters in marriage to you.whilst attracting admiring glances from plenty of hotties .  :popcorn:
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: GQBlues on January 21, 2022, 10:06:09 AM
Released on December 15, 2009, written by Volodymyr Vasylenko:

http://day.kyiv.ua/en/article/close/assurances-without-guarantees-shelved-document (http://day.kyiv.ua/en/article/close/assurances-without-guarantees-shelved-document)


"Idealizing the Budapest Memorandum cannot and must not be a “step” in the shaping of Ukraine’s foreign policy"


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...To start with, negotiations on security guarantees for Ukraine as a state that had voluntarily forsaken the world’s third largest nuclear arsenal were held not only in Budapest and not only in December 1994. Begun in April 1992 and held first with the US and then with the UK, Russia, and France, the talks ended on December 5, 1994, with the signing of the Budapest Memorandum on Security Assurances, whereby Ukraine became a party to the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty. In addition to Ukraine’s President Leonid Kuchma, this document was signed by Russian President Boris Yeltsin, US President Bill Clinton, and UK Prime Minister John Major.

China gave Ukraine security guarantees unilaterally in the governmental statement dated December 4, 1994, as did France in a declaration that was handed in to Ukraine’s delegation together with a covering letter signed by President Francois Mitterand on December 5, 1994.

As it follows from the Memorandum and the above-mentioned unilateral acts, the five nuclear states, permanent members of the UN Security Council, did not make any special commitments with respect to Ukraine – they only reaffirmed their commitment, in accordance with the principles of the UN Charter and the CSCE Final Act, to respect the independence, sovereignty and the existing borders of Ukraine, to refrain from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of Ukraine, as well as from economic coercion designed to subordinate to their own interest the exercise by Ukraine of the rights inherent in its sovereignty and thus to secure advantages of any kind. Besides, they reaffirmed their commitment to seek immediate United Nations Security Council action to provide assistance to Ukraine should it become a victim of an act of aggression or an object of a threat of aggression in which nuclear weapons are used, and their commitment not to use nuclear weapons against any non-nuclear-weapon state party to the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons.

The only specific obligation that the three nuclear states – the US, Russia, and the UK – took was that they “will consult in the event a situation arises which raises a question concerning these commitments.” This means that the aforesaid nuclear states must take part in these consultations at Ukraine’s demand. However, the Memorandum has no clauses that set out the procedure of convening and conducting such consultations, making and implementing decisions, or explain the nature of sanctions against the potential offender.

The documents in which China and France gave Ukraine security assurances do not call for an institution of mandatory consultations. The Chinese declaration only says about the government’s inclination to a “peaceful settlement of differences and disputes by way of fair consultations.” The declaration of France does not mention consultations at all.

Therefore, the form and content of the Memorandum and the above-mentioned unilateral acts show that, unfortunately, the Budapest talks on giving Ukraine security guarantees did not eventually result in a comprehensive international agreement that creates an adequate special international mechanism to protect our national security. Tellingly, the authentic English-language copies of the Memorandum use the term “security assurances” which is far weaker than “security guarantees.” The unilateral declaration of France also speaks about “security assurances” (assurances de securite) rather than security guarantees....

Learn, Chelseaboy. Learn.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: fathertime on January 21, 2022, 10:53:32 AM
The world is a cruel place.   From a tactical standpoint, I'd suspect the US would like to make sure Russia pays dearly for Ukraine.  Given that, we are probably willing to send as much assistance to Ukraine as we can get away with.  Our goal wouldn't necessarily be to save Ukraine, but to ensure that Russia incurs casualties and costs.  By doing this, it increases the chances that Ukraine would suffer increased casualties as well.   We would be using Ukrainian armed forces to satisfy our own ends.  Ultimately Ukraine will have to defend and fight for themselves.   I'm still convinced that this will not turn into a full-scale military conflict. 

As usual, I don't think the US has a leg to stand on.  We have directly/indirectly fueled discord poverty in unfavored nations the world around, which I suspect has caused deaths/suffering in the millions. 

Fathertime! 
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Trenchcoat on January 21, 2022, 12:55:11 PM

I agree that Ukraine needs those missiles and also SAM systems to help defend against Russian aircraft.


They may already have these...who knows ?


If not maybe the USA/Biden might actually do something instead of just talking.


The World is watching and taking note of who stepped-up when needed....the Brits have.


Putin is watching and seeing who's weak and who isn't.

I read somewhere of recent that Ukraine is weak on anti-missile equipment. My guess is that they also don't have much if anything on SAM's either. Like you say they need both to avoid Russia gaining easy air superiority as that would be a disaster in any hope of holding them off. Ukraine doesn't have as much or likely as good an airforce as Russia so they won't get far with that. Looks like Ukraine's best bet is to acquire some decent anti-missile equipment and SAM's to defend against the threat from the air. I think if they had that then Putin might start to reconsider attacking Ukraine. A bloody fight is not what he would be keen on I think. To date Ukraine has presented itself as a relatively easy and vulnerable target with NATO proclaiming they won't go in ripe for the taking. The anti-tank missiles we gave them will help look a little more difficult for the Russians to fight but I don't think it's necessarily enough. The Russians still possess awesome firepower and could still likely demolish Ukraine's army very quickly. They really need to combat the sir threat to avoid being pounded, obliterated and whoever left fleeing. Ukraine is presently almost surrounded so a long line to have to defend. The Russians only need to punch a hole through one area along that line, pour in and roll their whole line up from attacking from the rear and it'll be pretty much all over fir Ukraine.

After Ukraine, Russia will be very dominant in the Black Sea and Georgia will be cut off from aid from the west. Georgia will be the next soft target too far removed to help. After that probably the stans, Putin already had a foothold in Kazakhstan so he can use that as leverage, again more soft targets and former republics of the USSR. The former Eastern Bloc countries I don't think he is too concerned about, their not necessarily in his eye. Possibly Finland if they remain outside of NATO. That's the way I see it anywhere.

This is definitely a situation that needs to be fought by proxy as far as the west is concerned. Using NATO would risk WWIII so not worth that. Equiping Ukraine with some stuff similar to that of a western nation gives it the ability to at least mount a credible defence and Putin won't be keen on attacking someone who may not just roll over as easily as they first appeared.

I think for sure though this will help us UK guys abroad in giving them the anti tank stuff. Being seen as allies and friends helps rather than being seen as foreigners who they don't feel any connection with.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Trenchcoat on January 21, 2022, 01:07:12 PM
The world is a cruel place.   From a tactical standpoint, I'd suspect the US would like to make sure Russia pays dearly for Ukraine.  Given that, we are probably willing to send as much assistance to Ukraine as we can get away with.  Our goal wouldn't necessarily be to save Ukraine, but to ensure that Russia incurs casualties and costs.  By doing this, it increases the chances that Ukraine would suffer increased casualties as well.   We would be using Ukrainian armed forces to satisfy our own ends.  Ultimately Ukraine will have to defend and fight for themselves.   I'm still convinced that this will not turn into a full-scale military conflict. 

As usual, I don't think the US has a leg to stand on.  We have directly/indirectly fueled discord poverty in unfavored nations the world around, which I suspect has caused deaths/suffering in the millions. 

Fathertime!

Exactly, while a protracted military struggle may see the Russians off in the end this is about giving the Russians va hard time of it by causing them more casualties. The anti-tank stuff the UK sent will cause more casualties on the Russian side most likely. But in making Ukraine stiffer competition to beat it is like you say likely to make it a lot more bloody and hence miserable for Ukrainians. I kind of can't help feel a bit bad by sitting in a 'safe' country and discussing how these poor people are going to face being torn to pieces. While it's not my fight nor that of my nation or the US/NATO it doesn't feel great to sit back and potentially view the happenings that could quite likely unfold with an armchair view of things :popcorn: End of the day these are real people like all of us that are going to suffer real bad and I for one wouldn't like to be stuck in that situation. Families torn apart, loved ones lost, etc.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Trenchcoat on January 21, 2022, 11:04:59 PM
An interesting article here from an interview with residents of Kharkiv on the situation:

http://news.sky.com/story/russia-ukraine-crisis-if-someone-tries-to-take-our-freedom-again-we-will-fight-back-ukrainians-say-as-tensions-continue-12522010

Looks like beneath the surface a lot of people may be pretty worried, I don't blame them. This is in a city quite far east in Ukraine as you all know so probably a lot of Russian speakers/original ethnic Russians. I think the article rightly draws attention to whether the Ukraine Military will be able to cope with the Russian Army as it will likely be a lot harder and probably faster hitting than they have had to date. On that point of course the Russians would get the first strike in as they would attack first since Ukraine of course won't attack Russia as that would be bringing the problem on themselves for certain and the lack the capability to do it well and they won't want to give the Russians the excuse. So odds are that Ukraine's military could be blown to bits in the first strike leaving little left to fight with my guess would be.

The article gives some sterling account of Ukrainians resolve but that may unfortunately count for little at the end of the day I'm thinking. A destroyed army won't have any resolve.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Chelseaboy on January 22, 2022, 06:46:03 AM

 >:D

The humiliation continues....LMAO!

1. Plagiarism is not a very cool thing to do, you know. Only idiots do that. If you can't put together a coherent statement on your own, and you have a need to resolve to cut/paste, give some reference/s.

2. If you relied on WIKI, allow me to reinforced what I suspected about you - a barking dog void of any significant bite. I say that because the very source of information you relied upon cited the following:



So now that you've successfully made a total mockery of yourself, please stop digging. I'm certain your public display of stupidity has become painfully obvious now.
 :blowkiss: 


I was entertained.


You can posture and squirm and swerve and attempt to deflect and spin as much as you like...trolls do tend to do that .


Your credibility on here is zilch.


You have been shown to be incorrect and lacking on any knowledge on many of your points..as i listed previously.


Even worse than any of that i have shown you to be a liar with your comment about my son...so anything you've previously posted or will post in the future can be taken with a pinch of salt.


Your public humiliation and exposure as a liar is complete.


I'm well aware what the word assurances mean by the way...and so does the UK Government..which is why they've gifted the 2000 anti-Tank Missiles to Ukraine  :rolleyes:


They know a bit more about the Budapest Memorandum than some drooling trolling nobody posting on here



 :)
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: John Gaunt on January 22, 2022, 07:32:10 AM
 :popcorn:
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Admin on January 22, 2022, 12:11:32 PM
Stick to the issues and do NOT resort to petty personal insults. Continued behaviour of this sort will result in the topic being locked.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: GQBlues on January 22, 2022, 01:03:08 PM

You can posture and squirm and swerve and attempt to deflect and spin as much as you like...trolls do tend to do that .


As you can see, personal petty insult is apparently not allowed...accusation of squirming and swerving and calling one a troll, IMO, is personal insult. Do you agree Chelseaboy?

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Your credibility on here is zilch.


Close to another personal insult, but I'll let that slide.

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You have been shown to be incorrect and lacking on any knowledge on many of your points..as i listed previously.

Oh really?!? Let me bold those questions for better clarity:

Can you please show me how you addressed what I asked before then - PLEASE. You kept referring to the Budapest Memorandum as the justification of the US and the UK sending arms to Ukraine - which I asked VERY CLEARLY, even provide you the 6 contents of the memorandum to please show me, or explain, where in the memorandum explicitly mentioned that.

Quote
Even worse than any of that i have shown you to be a liar with your comment about my son...so anything you've previously posted or will post in the future can be taken with a pinch of salt.


The comment about your son derived from your attempt at bravado about going forth with reckless abandon and cheering for the exacerbating in getting Ukraine in an armed conflict against a far more superior nation that would likely result in untold thousands of casualties. It's akin to finding delight in a bloodbath, and with such emotions and bravado, methinks maybe you'd change your mind and request deployment of your kid, is all. Is this an option to you, or no?  UK arming Ukraine, you believe levels the field against Russia? Can anyone arm them enough to survive a war with Russia?

Quote
Your public humiliation and exposure as a liar is complete.


Oooppsss...there you were, resorted to another personal insult it seems...

Quote
I'm well aware what the word assurances mean by the way...and so does the UK Government..which is why they've gifted the 2000 anti-Tank Missiles to Ukraine  :rolleyes:

English is your native tongue, so it please point out where in the 6 contents of the memorandum cited that. It is written in English, bruddah.  :devil:

Assurance used in the cited contents relates to compliance of the bulleted contents. Again, where did it even suggested any form of military assistance. Your personal definition and usage of the word ‘Assurance’, which unfortunately webster and the rest of the English dictionary available, in hard cover or online - disagree with you. But nice try.

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They know a bit more about the Budapest Memorandum than some drooling trolling nobody posting on here


LMAO! *THEY* Who are *they*? Are you referring to WIKI? I just gave you it said about ‘military assistance’! LMAO! Again, it’s written in English, man.

And are those MORE personal insult you resorted to again?

Quote
:)


Back at yah, baby  >:D
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: GQBlues on January 22, 2022, 01:04:47 PM
Stick to the issues and do NOT resort to petty personal insults. Continued behaviour of this sort will result in the topic being locked.


Hi Dan-

Did you just looked at my post, deleted it, after receiving the email notification, and totally missed the instigated post/s prompting these exchanges? I'm not accusing of any bias around here, as I keep these things in check.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Trenchcoat on January 22, 2022, 03:15:55 PM
Well after US talks have twice failed it looks like the UK is giving it a go:

http://news.sky.com/story/ukraine-crisis-moscow-accepts-uk-talks-invite-amid-fears-russian-invasion-is-imminent-12522361

I don't really hold out any hope here possibly just an attempt to say we've tried and possibly a stalling action in case the Russians decide to attack early before their fleet have arrived in the Black Sea before the Ukrainian military have really gotten to grips with how to use those anti tank rocket launchers we sent them. They arrived in the country about a day ago now, my guess is that they now need to decide where they will be dispersed among Ukrainian troops. They'll no doubt need them along the whole of the Ukrainian border except that which borders Poland. 2000 anti tank rocket launchers care going to take time to distribute after deciding where they go then there is training the troops on how to use them, that may not take too long depending upon complexity, maybe an instruction manual or You Tube video.

So I'm going to guess they have about decided upon distribution and will be sending the stuff off to the front in the next day or so. So possibly after the weekend Ukrainian troops might start getting to grips with the stuff at best. Still that leaves Ukraine with problems of Russian air superiority and no doubt other issues that still need addressing.

The Tory MP mentioned in the article that he reckons conflict is inevitable and I'm thinking he is probably right.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Trenchcoat on January 22, 2022, 03:23:26 PM
I'm guessing there are a lot of people in general not just on this forum who have people they know out in Ukraine, friends, family, in-laws, etc who may be in harm's way in a possible Russian Invasion. Anyone here concerned about people they know out in Ukraine who might end up having to face such a scenario?

Worst case I think will be if it ends up with Ukraine's cities being bombarded and hence shelled out. Many civilian casualties likely, homes destroyed. Then of course all the places we've visited over the years no longer as they were.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Grumpy on January 22, 2022, 03:32:23 PM
The US embassy in Ukraine has requested the evacuation of all non-essential staff amid increasing fears of an imminent Russian invasion and the arrival overnight of arms deliveries promised by President Joe Biden, according to a CNN report.

US evacuations are likely to start “as early as next week”, the US cable news network said, citing a source close to the Ukrainian government. It marks the embassy’s shift in focus towards “helping Ukraine bolster its defences in the face of growing Russian aggression”.

The embassy in Kyiv also said on Twitter that the first batch of fresh US assistance had arrived in Ukraine, which includes weaponry described as “200,000 pounds of lethal aid, including ammunition for the frontline defenders of Ukraine”.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/jan/22/us-embassy-in-ukraine-requests-staff-evacuation-amid-war-fears
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Chelseaboy on January 22, 2022, 06:18:19 PM
Well done the USA for stepping-up also.


It will anger GQBlues of course because he says the USA shouldn't "give a shit" about Ukraine..maybe influenced by having a Russian wife.


I'm well aware other members of this forum have Russian and Ukrainian wives but have kept a dignified silence over the ever more disturbing developments between Russia and Ukraine...some may have family members actually involved,so let us hope for everyones sake that the situation calms down and common-sense prevails to prevent war breaking out between the two countries.


Well done to Estonia,Latvia and Lithuania too for supplying US made Anti-Tank and Anti-Aircraft missiles to Ukraine today.


Personally i feel that the better armed Ukraine is the less chance Putin will invade.


In another development the German Navy Chief Vice Admiral Kay-Achim Schoenbach has had to resign after making pro-Russian/Putin comments.


 
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Trenchcoat on January 22, 2022, 06:44:38 PM
Indeed Grumpy, sone here will be the other side of the fence in having Russian wives/partners. While Russia's actions don't necessarily represent their standpoint for some it may not be an easy one if their other half is from the other side.

The US evacuating the families of its Embassy staff is symbolic I think. To me it looks like they are all gearing up for what may be the inevitable.

Recent update on that Russian Armada:

http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/43965/russias-landing-ships-are-headed-to-the-mediterranean-to-join-a-growing-armada

Confirms they are headed in the direction of the Med/Black Sea. If they first conduct military exercises in the Med before moving to the Black Sea then guessing possible invasion of Ukraine could very potentially be around early February, so not long.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Trenchcoat on January 22, 2022, 10:32:46 PM
Indeed the $200 million of US ammo etc will no doubt cone in handy for Ukraine.

The Baltic States are sending Ukraine anti-tank and anti-aircraft equipment, US made, the anti-aircraft stuff it will no doubt desperately need. Whether it will be enough or sufficient to take out a lot of Russian military planes who knows, they would need to I think.

http://www.voanews.com/a/blinken-authorizes-baltic-countries-to-send-us-weapons-to-ukraine/6408170.html
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Chelseaboy on January 23, 2022, 04:32:23 AM
Indeed Grumpy, sone here will be the other side of the fence in having Russian wives/partners. While Russia's actions don't necessarily represent their standpoint for some it may not be an easy one if their other half is from the other side.

The US evacuating the families of its Embassy staff is symbolic I think. To me it looks like they are all gearing up for what may be the inevitable.

Recent update on that Russian Armada:

http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/43965/russias-landing-ships-are-headed-to-the-mediterranean-to-join-a-growing-armada (http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/43965/russias-landing-ships-are-headed-to-the-mediterranean-to-join-a-growing-armada)

Confirms they are headed in the direction of the Med/Black Sea. If they first conduct military exercises in the Med before moving to the Black Sea then guessing possible invasion of Ukraine could very potentially be around early February, so not long.


NATO has announced they will also be sending ships to the Med to conduct large-scale military exercises "Neptune strike 22" starting Monday for an initial two week period.
These will include the US Aircraft Carrier USS "Harry Truman".


The Netherlands has announced they will also be sending arms  if requested by Ukraine.


In Ukraine civilians are volunteering for Territorial Defense Battalions and are training to fight a Guerrilla war if Russia invades.


Deputy PM Dominic Raab said today that it's "extremely unlikely " that British troops will be sent to Ukraine,but that the UK will do whatever else is necessary if Russia invades Ukraine.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: GQBlues on January 23, 2022, 06:30:40 AM
ZIP. Nothing but hot air.

But the flip side to this is I’m glad I’m able to make significant progress in educating and enlightening greater understanding of what the Budapest Memorandum was really all about. It was in English after all.
 
Colonialism continues.

 ;D
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: fathertime on January 23, 2022, 11:52:20 AM
Well done the USA for stepping-up also.



Personally i feel that the better armed Ukraine is the less chance Putin will invade.
 
This seems like a dog and pony show. 
Russia leadership isn't stupid, they would have known the likelihood of additional arms being sent to Ukraine.  Despite this, they continued to delay their 'invasion', until presumably Ukraine was armed better.    Doesn't make sense, hence I don't think a genuine invasion was ever on the table as a real option.    I hold that had Russia really wanted to take over Ukraine militarily they would have done it in a flash.   They would have left no time for the west to pound their chest about preventing an invasion, that wasn't going to actually happen.  If all this is correct, then who knows what REALLY this is all about? 

Fathertime!
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Boethius on January 23, 2022, 03:29:55 PM
The Budapest Memorandum was prepared in English, Ukrainian, and Russian.  It does not commit the US, or Britain, to defend Ukraine in the event of an attack.  Russia has already breached the Treaty, and continues to do so.  What current actions prove, is that Iran and North Korea would be foolish to give up their nuclear programs.



Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Trenchcoat on January 24, 2022, 08:45:19 PM

NATO has announced they will also be sending ships to the Med to conduct large-scale military exercises "Neptune strike 22" starting Monday for an initial two week period.
These will include the US Aircraft Carrier USS "Harry Truman".


The Netherlands has announced they will also be sending arms  if requested by Ukraine.


In Ukraine civilians are volunteering for Territorial Defense Battalions and are training to fight a Guerrilla war if Russia invades.


Deputy PM Dominic Raab said today that it's "extremely unlikely " that British troops will be sent to Ukraine,but that the UK will do whatever else is necessary if Russia invades Ukraine.

Ukraine military must have seen my advice in here CB ;D

I think if Ukraine can show the Russians that they have a credible defence against many of their attacks and an invasion could prove very costly to their military then the Russians might decide not to invade. The anti-tank rockets help a lot with that and if they can get anti aircraft stuff from the Baltic States that can help also. Having a strong guerilla warfare/terrorist network already set up ready to combat the Russians may help also. Holding territory as the victor while still being attack on a long term basis, well they've been there before with Afghanistan and it's no joy. In the end a lot of occupying nation's end up pulling out of territory they won due to it just becoming too much trouble for it too control. If the Russians also think that they will have to shell a lot of the cities thereby leaving an economic wasteland that they inherit and problems they may think twice also.

I think sending weapons to Ukraine is our and their best course of action. Talk of troops on the ground has re-emerged somewhat in the UK but I think that will cause more problems by dragging us into the conflict and causing casualties on our side which will be damaging at home. As rightfully said it is ultimately Ukraine's fight.

Just a case of seeing whether it will be enough for the Russians to back of now. Apparently both sides have been calling forward more manpower and arms so that can be a dangerous situation also, kind of arms race like. Just a question of holding tight I guess.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Trenchcoat on January 25, 2022, 01:27:05 AM
Well I say it's not our fight but for some it appears so:

http://news.sky.com/story/ukraine-crisis-the-britons-fighting-in-the-trenches-against-russians-after-starting-new-lives-12524652

Apparently it seems a good way to get a Ukrainian girl. Both these Brits are fitted up with Ukrainian wives (or to be). They've bought a house in town and are ready to defend Ukraine. Like me the guy barely speaks any Russian but that didn't stop him. So there could be go in this idea, become a war tourist earn the admiration of a local girl and hope the Russians don't attack blowing all troops to pieces in an instant.

Hmmnn.... I will have to sit and think on this one :-\

Apparently I can get residency/citizenship for life and move to the picturesque and tranquil Shirokino practically for free! :D
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Chelseaboy on January 25, 2022, 05:46:51 AM
The Budapest Memorandum was prepared in English, Ukrainian, and Russian.  It does not commit the US, or Britain, to defend Ukraine in the event of an attack.  Russia has already breached the Treaty, and continues to do so.  What current actions prove, is that Iran and North Korea would be foolish to give up their nuclear programs.


Which was my original point back in post 215 about other countries now not trusting the west regarding de-escalating their Nuclear weapons build-ups,  in response to GQBlues asking why the USA "should give a shit about Ukraine ", who then launched his tirade of attempted deflection posts....which didn't work. :)
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Chelseaboy on January 25, 2022, 05:58:43 AM
Well I say it's not our fight but for some it appears so:

http://news.sky.com/story/ukraine-crisis-the-britons-fighting-in-the-trenches-against-russians-after-starting-new-lives-12524652 (http://news.sky.com/story/ukraine-crisis-the-britons-fighting-in-the-trenches-against-russians-after-starting-new-lives-12524652)

Apparently it seems a good way to get a Ukrainian girl. Both these Brits are fitted up with Ukrainian wives (or to be). They've bought a house in town and are ready to defend Ukraine. Like me the guy barely speaks any Russian but that didn't stop him. So there could be go in this idea, become a war tourist earn the admiration of a local girl and hope the Russians don't attack blowing all troops to pieces in an instant.

Hmmnn.... I will have to sit and think on this one :-\

Apparently I can get residency/citizenship for life and move to the picturesque and tranquil Shirokino practically for free! :D



Would you fancy spending weeks/months in freezing cold snow-filled trenches .?


I'm not sure you'd meet the kind of girl you like in a place like that..or be paid the money to attract her on your R&R in Odessa  :)



Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Chelseaboy on January 25, 2022, 06:58:43 AM
Boris Johnson has just stated in the Commons that after talks last night Germany will not go ahead with Nord stream 2 if Russia invades Ukraine.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Chelseaboy on January 25, 2022, 09:31:18 AM
GB News has just been speaking to a Ukrainian who works for the Kyiv Independent and he said 32% of Ukrainians are signing-up for the Territorial Defense Batallions.


He also confirmed how popular the Brits are now and the UK is the most popular country outside Ukraine. :)


The anti-tank missile delivery is the talk of Ukraine and how it was so needed and the timing of it.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: fathertime on January 25, 2022, 09:52:01 AM
Boris Johnson has just stated in the Commons that after talks last night Germany will not go ahead with Nord stream 2 if Russia invades Ukraine.

Which (In my opinion) makes it a given that Russia isn't and never intended on invading Ukraine.  So if that is the case what is really going on is a curiosity (To me). 

Fathertime! 
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Trenchcoat on January 25, 2022, 12:42:10 PM

Would you fancy spending weeks/months in freezing cold snow-filled trenches .?


I'm not sure you'd meet the kind of girl you like in a place like that..or be paid the money to attract her on your R&R in Odessa  :)

Yeah you have a point CB, unfortunately for Ukraine I'm not one who does well in cold weather so need warmer climates to operate. Shame as I reckon I could have turned any potential battle around for them ;D

To be honest I'm more a one man army type of guy, operating with others as a unit would just rain on my parade.

Noticed what you said below CB that is surely great news for us Brits assuming Ukraine as a country survives of course. Hopefully now they will stop scamming us and see us in a better light :)

Reckon making good on potential good will out of our country's support is probably better going as a civilian to (hopefully) enjoy the favour of the women rather than spend time in the trenches and potentially miss out on a lot or all of that.

What you say is true also, they never showed the women they were with in the report, lol!
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: GQBlues on January 25, 2022, 02:57:41 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DKf0_vi2zLE
Ahhh! Such nervous Nelly talk! What can happen? It isn't like the bombs will be exploding in America! All the dying will happen in Ukraine, and all these zealots pushing for war will get their wishes fulfilled. So I'm not even sure why EU's Josef Borrell is so nervous. After all, Ukraine is armed with British fish and chips, er..sorry anti-tank pellets. And with brass-balled Biden around, nothing can stop the home of the brave (as long as we're fighting somewhere else, heheh). So let's flatten Kyiv!!!


You just gotta love the great U-S-of-A, man!!! Especially when Democrats are ruling. I mean look at how deserted Libya's beaches had become these days!! Look at all the construction going on in Iraq and Afghanistan? We love fighting for our country and freedom on someone else's country!!!! Nothing like having another country's stooged to die for our military's benefit now, infrastructure industries later.


Hell, even the UK have a lot of economic interest with a flattened Kyiv. Imagine all the construction that will be needed when the smoke clears! LMAO. Why else would they be sending arms and push the Ukrainians into a war they can't possible win.[size=78%].[/size]
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Trenchcoat on January 25, 2022, 08:50:38 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DKf0_vi2zLE
Ahhh! Such nervous Nelly talk! What can happen? It isn't like the bombs will be exploding in America! All the dying will happen in Ukraine, and all these zealots pushing for war will get their wishes fulfilled. So I'm not even sure why EU's Josef Borrell is so nervous. After all, Ukraine is armed with British fish and chips, er..sorry anti-tank pellets. And with brass-balled Biden around, nothing can stop the home of the brave (as long as we're fighting somewhere else, heheh). So let's flatten Kyiv!!!


You just gotta love the great U-S-of-A, man!!! Especially when Democrats are ruling. I mean look at how deserted Libya's beaches had become these days!! Look at all the construction going on in Iraq and Afghanistan? We love fighting for our country and freedom on someone else's country!!!! Nothing like having another country's stooged to die for our military's benefit now, infrastructure industries later.


Hell, even the UK have a lot of economic interest with a flattened Kyiv. Imagine all the construction that will be needed when the smoke clears! LMAO. Why else would they be sending arms and push the Ukrainians into a war they can't possible win.[size=78%].[/size]

Well the Ukrainians might finally get rid of their Soviet concrete block apartments I guess. I think you're right though GQ that there is potential in destruction being wrought in Ukraine for some western nations potentially. That seems an awful thought but it's how some of the top people in the west think though, US, UK and the rest. It's kind of ironic that Ukraine sees the west as their saviours, allies what they want to get close to but what they see on the face of it isn't necessarily all of what the west is. Underneath there can be those real wealthy elite who may see more self satisfying motives for themselves.

Rebuilding itself is not in itself bad but not really caring if a conflict occurs where much misery is likely to entail to open up those rebuilding opportunities is another matter I think. My thoughts are if that came about then those wealthy western elites would be after a big stake in the investment in any future Ukraine. Ukraine wouldn't have any further option but to accept Western dominance of its country or be left with a wasteland. Essentially they would be trading Russian dominance for Western dominance and suffering a war over it. I guess it could even end up my calling in life, helping in rebuilding Ukraine if it went that way.

Anyhow this article reckons we could know whether there may be an imminent attack from Russian movements mobilizing to attack pattern:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-60120217.amp

So satellite images may give us the first insight, missile units moving into position, missiles firing etc, just how much advance warning that may be detected is unclear but it's likely to be pretty short earning before it happens I'm guessing but I guess any warning is better than none. Possibly we might get the heads up from any talk of a possible attack being 'very imminent' from the US or UK government before it happens I'm guessing.

Still no certainty of an attack, Russia seems to be after the west addressing so of it's concerns perhaps. I still can't see why they would go to such a build up just over their concerns though in the way they have. Russia invaded the Crimea and an incursion into the Donbass before and along with fleet movements, etc it kind of looks like they may want a lot more Ukrainian land this time, quite possibly all of it.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Boethius on January 26, 2022, 01:57:28 AM
The West didn't amass troops on Ukraine's border.  They didn't send provocateurs across the border in preparation for an invasion or war games.  The West wasn't responsible for cyber attacks on Ukraine, or other countries (Canada's office of Global Affairs, for example, after a statement on the ongoing conflict).
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Chelseaboy on January 26, 2022, 02:43:50 AM
Well the Ukrainians might finally get rid of their Soviet concrete block apartments I guess. I think you're right though GQ that there is potential in destruction being wrought in Ukraine for some western nations potentially. That seems an awful thought but it's how some of the top people in the west think though, US, UK and the rest. It's kind of ironic that Ukraine sees the west as their saviours, allies what they want to get close to but what they see on the face of it isn't necessarily all of what the west is. Underneath there can be those real wealthy elite who may see more self satisfying motives for themselves.

Rebuilding itself is not in itself bad but not really caring if a conflict occurs where much misery is likely to entail to open up those rebuilding opportunities is another matter I think. My thoughts are if that came about then those wealthy western elites would be after a big stake in the investment in any future Ukraine. Ukraine wouldn't have any further option but to accept Western dominance of its country or be left with a wasteland. Essentially they would be trading Russian dominance for Western dominance and suffering a war over it. I guess it could even end up my calling in life, helping in rebuilding Ukraine if it went that way.

Anyhow this article reckons we could know whether there may be an imminent attack from Russian movements mobilizing to attack pattern:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-60120217.amp (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-60120217.amp)

So satellite images may give us the first insight, missile units moving into position, missiles firing etc, just how much advance warning that may be detected is unclear but it's likely to be pretty short earning before it happens I'm guessing but I guess any warning is better than none. Possibly we might get the heads up from any talk of a possible attack being 'very imminent' from the US or UK government before it happens I'm guessing.

Still no certainty of an attack, Russia seems to be after the west addressing so of it's concerns perhaps. I still can't see why they would go to such a build up just over their concerns though in the way they have. Russia invaded the Crimea and an incursion into the Donbass before and along with fleet movements, etc it kind of looks like they may want a lot more Ukrainian land this time, quite possibly all of it.


So..if Russia invades and flattens Ukraine...as you think they will....how will that provide work for Western companies.?


The whole point of Putin invading would be to extend the Russian territory again,as he's already done with Crimea.


Any re-building would be done by Russian companies.as was the bridge from Russia to Crimea  :rolleyes:


Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Chelseaboy on January 26, 2022, 02:49:48 AM
The West didn't amass troops on Ukraine's border.  They didn't send provocateurs across the border in preparation for an invasion or war games.  The West wasn't responsible for cyber attacks on Ukraine, or other countries (Canada's office of Global Affairs, for example, after a statement on the ongoing conflict).


Don't let facts spoil someone else's narrative.


The West didn't take Crimea either...
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Chelseaboy on January 26, 2022, 03:22:04 AM
A former member of the Ukrainian Government was interviewed on Sky News last night in Kiev and he was saying he's a bit puzzled by all the current rhetoric coming from the West....as are all the senior Ukrainian politicians he has spoken with .


He said those Russian troops have been on our borders for the last seven years..nothing has changed.....so why  all the talk about invasion now ?


The President of Ukraine was saying the same thing on tv a week ago.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Trenchcoat on January 26, 2022, 04:00:44 AM

So..if Russia invades and flattens Ukraine...as you think they will....how will that provide work for Western companies.?


The whole point of Putin invading would be to extend the Russian territory again,as he's already done with Crimea.


Any re-building would be done by Russian companies.as was the bridge from Russia to Crimea  :rolleyes:

Oh, yeah I meant they only likely gain if the Russians are pushed out of Ukraine somehow after the supposed attack. It will be unlikely if Russia takes Ukraine of course. My guess is the Russians will just set up make shift accomodation for any of the displaced population to sleep in. Though a lot would tend to focus on how many survive Vs buildings left intact.

Kind of weird thinking that things could be that way. Part of me thinks the logic all suggests Putin wishes to invade but part also thinks they wouldn't really risk killing so many people, risk destroying so many peoples homes and ruining so many of their lives, would they?

It's all kind of a bit bizarre.

When you think a lot of this all came about because the EU back in 2014.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Faux Pas on January 26, 2022, 05:46:52 AM
A former member of the Ukrainian Government was interviewed on Sky News last night in Kiev and he was saying he's a bit puzzled by all the current rhetoric coming from the West....as are all the senior Ukrainian politicians he has spoken with .


He said those Russian troops have been on our borders for the last seven years..nothing has changed.....so why  all the talk about invasion now ?


The President of Ukraine was saying the same thing on tv a week ago.

Exactly. The the West and the MSM has started pounding the war drums focused on the Ukrainian border since Biden has been in office. One only needs to question why? "Russia, Russia, Russia" Russian troops have been there for 7 years. Russian puppets have been in charge of the Ukrainian government since the break up of the FSU. Why would Putin, love him or hate him need to invade Ukraine now? The answer is he doesn't and never has.

If you understand that NATO is the army of the Rothchilds and the WEF, that also includes the US, things might begin to get more clearer. If you look closely you'll see that Putin's Russia have been blamed for everything from Hillary losing the election to the release of secret emails and documents to war in the Middle East. Of course none of the worlds media is going to discuss this aspect. It's a case of what they are not telling us being more important than what they are telling us. Ukraine means nothing to either side of the conflict it is only where both sides are drawing the proverbial line in the sand. The Rothchilds through NATO intend to pound Putin into submission and Putin standing up to it. The deaths and destruction of Ukraine means not one wit, to either side
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: fathertime on January 26, 2022, 07:14:38 AM
Exactly. The the West and the MSM has started pounding the war drums focused on the Ukrainian border since Biden has been in office. One only needs to question why? "Russia, Russia, Russia" Russian troops have been there for 7 years. Russian puppets have been in charge of the Ukrainian government since the break up of the FSU. Why would Putin, love him or hate him need to invade Ukraine now? The answer is he doesn't and never has.

 
You have changed your tune big time. 
Of course, I agree that the US is fomenting as much as it can.

If you understand that NATO is the army of the Rothchilds and the WEF, that also includes the US, things might begin to get more clearer. If you look closely you'll see that Putin's Russia have been blamed for everything from Hillary losing the election to the release of secret emails and documents to war in the Middle East. Of course none of the worlds media is going to discuss this aspect. It's a case of what they are not telling us being more important than what they are telling us. Ukraine means nothing to either side of the conflict it is only where both sides are drawing the proverbial line in the sand. The Rothchilds through NATO intend to pound Putin into submission and Putin standing up to it. The deaths and destruction of Ukraine means not one wit, to either side
Oh my, 'the Rothchilds'....reminds me of the good old 'pied piper' type argument again!     Well overall something is fishy, and the public doesn't hear the real truth, that I'm convinced of.



Fathertime! 
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: fathertime on January 26, 2022, 07:20:55 AM
A former member of the Ukrainian Government was interviewed on Sky News last night in Kiev and he was saying he's a bit puzzled by all the current rhetoric coming from the West....as are all the senior Ukrainian politicians he has spoken with .
 
Probably has to do with Nordstream 2 and energy money....anything we (The US) can do to try to enrich ourselves at others unnecessary expense.

He said those Russian troops have been on our borders for the last seven years..nothing has changed.....so why  all the talk about invasion now ?


The President of Ukraine was saying the same thing on tv a week ago.
Interesting that the president of Ukraine would be saying that, when he his nation is receiving some freebee weaponry.

Fathertime!

Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: GQBlues on January 26, 2022, 10:08:45 AM

Quote
Facts

LMAO! That's certainly the most (mis)used word on this board the past 6-7 years running.

Probably has to do with Nordstream 2 and energy money....anything we (The US) can do to try to enrich ourselves at others unnecessary expense.
Interesting that the president of Ukraine would be saying that, when he his nation is receiving some freebee weaponry.

Fathertime!


You think? Germany's new social democrat administration are hedging on bailing out of any NATO's war drums. Much to the chagrin of the *protectors* of democracy and peace, of course (a.k.a. the US and the UK, NATO top-brass, which technically is still the US and the UK - LMAO), though not as much as the rest of the alliance. Heck, even Ukraine seem too placid about what's going on along their borders in comparison to news coming from the US.

Instead of sending arms and beating their war drums. Germany is setting up hospitals in the Baltics, and even in Kyiv, instead. Again, much to the angst of the symbols of peace and democracy, LMAO!. Smart move actually. One flip of the switch in Moscow, millions of Germans would instantly freeze. By the way, the word *German* needs changing. According to the US's snowflakes and numbnuts, that is just plain shameful!!! They really need to look into this soon and make changes. They should be referred to as Gerpersons from now on! Bastards, I say!!!!

Even the so-called *serious economic sanctions* BDB, the brain dead Biden - leader of the world's symbol of peace and democracy, had been waving it around like a warning stick on Moscow by threatening to shut down dollar currency against Russia (SWIFT). Germany isn't kosher to the idea either. The largest economy in EU/Europe - if that happens, Germany will be the first to stumble even before Moscow feels a ripple. But hey, its Biden. You didn't really expected him to had thought this through, did you?

Then, like a predictable stooge, flexing his 80-year muscle by calling 8,500 soldiers to be at readiness. He plans on having the first unit for immediate deployment made up of the Army's fiercest LGBTQs, blacks, Mexicans, and the Unvaccinated. Masks On!!! They will be needed to defend our country and freedom halfway around the phucking globe despite the fact Ukraine had nothing to do with $12.00 Dodger Dogs, $400.00 SOFI Stadium Parking spots, Kanye&Kim's divorce, $5.00/gal gasoline and keeping Fauci on the federal payroll.

The UK is not any better. They're sending arms and 30 'elite' fish-eating, beer-guzzling fighters to teach 45 non-English speaking Ukrainian soldiers how to use 2,000 anti-tank missiles, written in English; to neutralize the 20 Russian tanks amassed along the border. Further provoking an escalation for war over a country and its people who is being used as a dispensable pawn like they don't even matter.

Seriously, doesn't it seem rather strange that there doesn't seem to be any confrontational, heated, damning words and calls for war between Kyiv/Moscow-Zelensky/Putin that you see and read here? Yet western media is literally flooding languages of war about the 'evil empire's' imminent invasion, and plans of eating little children & *grandmas lined-up with flowers in their hands* of Ukraine.

But seriously-II, forget that for every action nets a reaction. Because in the end, it matters not who trips first, Ukraine will most certainly loses *YUGELY* if this war comes to fruition. Regardless of the why/who/how.

Having CNN/ABC/MSNBC around, who needs Al-Jazeera/RT around.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Boethius on January 26, 2022, 10:24:43 AM
A former member of the Ukrainian Government was interviewed on Sky News last night in Kiev and he was saying he's a bit puzzled by all the current rhetoric coming from the West....as are all the senior Ukrainian politicians he has spoken with .


He said those Russian troops have been on our borders for the last seven years..nothing has changed.....so why  all the talk about invasion now ?


The President of Ukraine was saying the same thing on tv a week ago.


There have been troops on the border since the last invasion of Ukraine by Russia.  However, the numbers have increased dramatically in the past 10 months.  Further, there were no Russian troops on Ukraine's border with Belarus in the past. 


I think those statements are intended for Putin, not the West.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Boethius on January 26, 2022, 10:26:21 AM
Probably has to do with Nordstream 2 and energy money....anything we (The US) can do to try to enrich ourselves at others unnecessary expense.


The US doesn't have enough natural gas to keep Europe supplied.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Boethius on January 26, 2022, 10:33:41 AM
. By the way, the word *German* needs changing. According to the US's snowflakes and numbnuts, that is just plain shameful!!! They really need to look into this soon and make changes. They should be referred to as Gerpersons from now on! Bastards, I say!!!!

I know you're being facetious, but German comes from Latin - Germanus.  "Vir" is "man" in Latin, so no correlation.

Quote
Seriously, doesn't it seem rather strange that there doesn't seem to be any confrontational, heated, damning words and calls for war between Kyiv/Moscow-Zelensky/Putin that you see and read here? Yet western media is literally flooding languages of war about the 'evil empire's' imminent invasion, and plans of eating little children & *grandmas lined-up with flowers in their hands* of Ukraine.

It doesn't seem strange at all.  Ukraine is the country that will bear the brunt of any bellicosity, so avoiding it is in Ukraine's best interests.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: BC on January 26, 2022, 11:15:22 AM
One flip of the switch in Moscow, millions of Germans would instantly freeze. By the way, the word *German* needs changing. According to the US's snowflakes and numbnuts, that is just plain shameful!!! They really need to look into this soon and make changes. They should be referred to as Gerpersons from now on!

Germans are well prepared and have huge amounts of LNG and other fuel reserves.  IIRC 4th in the world. Although the reserves are somewhat depleted, they have enough energy to get them to summer.  They mothballed a number coal electricity plants as well instead of trashing them. They already produce about half of their electricity from renewable sources. Sure, it could get tough but they won't freeze. Certification of NordStream2 is on hold until at least June, giving them a bit of leverage as well.

Their military stance remains defensive in nature, along with supporting UN missions and humanitarian efforts for obvious historical reasons.  It will remain that way unless a direct threat is present, or article 5 of the NATO treaty is invoked.

They have been working for years to make the German language more gender neutral.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Trenchcoat on January 26, 2022, 03:32:00 PM
I remember a a couple of years ago a member seemed certain that war would follow the virus. He was convinced that Russia planned to invade Ukraine and that it would happen in February. It didn't happen in the year he suspected but he seemed certain that it would be coming in a future that time of year and seemed to have the inside track, perhaps he did. Could be that this is the time and could be this February.

While signs point to an invasion to me, I still wonder if the Russians are really willing for mass devastation to unfold on their doorstep at their doing. Even if they get the land of they are left with cities to rebuild it might not be such a great edition to the Russian Federation. Possibly I guess population could move into Russia but Ukraine's economy would be truely busted I'm sure.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Davo on January 26, 2022, 04:27:32 PM

While signs point to an invasion to me, I still wonder if the Russians are really willing for mass devastation to unfold on their doorstep at their doing. Even if they get the land of they are left with cities to rebuild it might not be such a great edition to the Russian Federation. Possibly I guess population could move into Russia but Ukraine's economy would be truely busted I'm sure.

Come on trench.... You’re hoping the invasion will happen and the economy crashes, so those hot young, mini skirt wearing models will be less picky about which man helps them escape Ukraine 😜
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Trenchcoat on January 26, 2022, 04:39:54 PM
Come on trench.... You’re hoping the invasion will happen and the economy crashes, so those hot young, mini skirt wearing models will be less picky about which man helps them escape Ukraine 😜

Lol, thought never crossed my mind ;D

Seriously though personally my situation is more suited to Ukraine not getting taken over by Russia in many ways. Possibly it might ignite a ban on westerners being able to visit Russia not to mention no visa-free independent Ukraine anymore. I personally would genuinely be horrified to see devastation being brought on Ukrainian people, some have been nice during my time there and it's not nice to see anyway.

If anything is going to happen odds are it will likely be in February, possibly early February. This article tells us that more Russian naval ships are out to conduct military drills:

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/russian-warship-flotilla-spotted-off-norway-probably-bound-for-irish-coast-1.4786382

3rd - 8th Feb near Cork, Ireland they reckon. Could that co-inside with a Russian attack on Ukraine? A case of basing naval ships near western countries as a safeguard against any thought of western countries moving in to help Ukraine in a snap change of mind.

Boris Johnson can't seem to decide whether to send troops in or not in recent reports. I personally don't think he will send troops into Ukraine it's too much of a gamble I reckon.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: GQBlues on January 26, 2022, 05:24:04 PM

So..if Russia invades and flattens Ukraine...as you think they will....how will that provide work for Western companies.?


That's a toughie (http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/us-finalizing-plans-to-divert-gas-to-europe-if-russia-cuts-off-supply/ar-AAT7PuJ?ocid=mailsignout&li=BBnb7Kz)...let me think.

Too bad the Nord Stream 2 project was so close to finishing. Dammit!!
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: fathertime on January 26, 2022, 06:04:25 PM

That's a toughie (http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/us-finalizing-plans-to-divert-gas-to-europe-if-russia-cuts-off-supply/ar-AAT7PuJ?ocid=mailsignout&li=BBnb7Kz)...let me think.

Too bad the Nord Stream 2 project was so close to finishing. Dammit!!
Since all us numbskulls have concluded it's all about Nord Steam 2/money, I would assume all the key countries in this also know. IF what we are saying is correct, then what does each country get for playing along with the charade.   Assuming there is no invasion, I wonder who is going to be the real loser in this 'fracas'. 

Fathertime! 
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: GQBlues on January 26, 2022, 06:35:52 PM
I know you're being facetious, but German comes from Latin - Germanus.  "Vir" is "man" in Latin, so no correlation.

Hhhmm…here I thought it was Germani.

Besides, there’s nothing facetious with current social progressive attitude in the US today. Sarcastic? Maybe.

Quote
It doesn't seem strange at all.  Ukraine is the country that will bear the brunt of any bellicosity, so avoiding it is in Ukraine's best interests.

Not sure how this related to what I said. ‘Strange’ was used to compare the distinct difference in the seeming attitude displayed so far by Kyiv/Zelensy vs the near-panicked coverage by the US media.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Trenchcoat on January 26, 2022, 08:34:11 PM
Apparently the UK Defence Chief thinks a Russian-Ukraine war is inevitable. He also is certain that there are a large number of Russian spies & special forces already in Ukraine, so the clock is ticking:

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/special-forces-bid-save-brits-26048368.amp

The SAS are apparently over there practicing for an evacuation of British citizens.

Ordinary Ukrainians seem to be finally jumping up and getting involved in fighting for their nation including this old Mother:

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/ukrainian-mum-buys-huge-rifle-26047160

Looks like she really went nuts and shelled out on some of the best gear going! Arms dealers must be making a fortune out all of this. With so much panic buying of guns & gear going on they might be a shortage of weaponry to buy soon like our big toilet paper crises.

Could mean though that more chance of the Russians just dumping their huge hyper thermal nuclear missiles on Ukrainian cities completely leveling them.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Trenchcoat on January 26, 2022, 10:03:16 PM
This Ukrainian General reckons that Ukraine may be most likely to be invaded around the 20th Feb when the Winter Olympics end and Russian war games in Belarus. Maybe, apparently the Winter Olympics are in China.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/ukrainian-general-hints-potential-date-26054672

I'm still not so sure, it's feasible but they may just end any war games early and not care about the Olympics and attack. The longer the Russians wait the longer the west have to send some decent anti aircraft and anti missile stuff.

He reckons an attack is not inevitable. After getting everyone worked up it might of course come to nothing.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: John Gaunt on January 26, 2022, 10:19:38 PM
This Ukrainian General reckons that Ukraine may be most likely to be invaded around the 20th Feb when the Winter Olympics end and Russian war games in Belarus. Maybe, apparently the Winter Olympics are in China.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/ukrainian-general-hints-potential-date-26054672

I'm still not so sure, it's feasible but they may just end any war games early and not care about the Olympics and attack. The longer the Russians wait the longer the west have to send some decent anti aircraft and anti missile stuff.

He reckons an attack is not inevitable. After getting everyone worked up it might of course come to nothing.

Trench, you seem to the only person getting worked up about this.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Trenchcoat on January 26, 2022, 11:40:54 PM
Trench, you seem to the only person getting worked up about this.

If you see the article on Ukrainian civilians buying guns then you'll see that Ukrainians are getting worked up. I think this situation has interesting elements to it such as foreign fighters getting involved etc.

I think for sure though that for us on this board that it's probably getting to the point where not a lot more will happen unless the Russians actually do go in. I think it's pretty much at the point where there is little more to get worked up on and we just sit this one out and wait and see.

I'll probably continue to contact Ukrainian women but don't think I'll be visiting until Russian troops have stood down. Hopefully Ukrainians won't end up going crazy fighting each other with all their arms they've bought themselves by then.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Trenchcoat on January 27, 2022, 03:45:22 AM
Apparently, it's possible to join the Ruskies as well as a foreign fighter:

http://coffeeordie.com/foreign-fighters-ukraine-russian-invasion/

Towards the end of the article it tells us about 1,300 have done so mainly from Germany, Serbia, etc.

So take you're pick, anyone here thinking of joining up on either side? Or out in Ukraine at the moment?
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Nightwish on January 27, 2022, 05:43:30 AM
Come on trench.... You’re hoping the invasion will happen and the economy crashes, so those hot young, mini skirt wearing models will be less picky about which man helps them escape Ukraine 😜

no no no, if Russia in some way annexes Ukraine he would be forced to pay for Visa to visit, that is out of the question for the piss poor Trench, he told us so many times now.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: John Gaunt on January 27, 2022, 08:40:18 AM
no no no, if Russia in some way annexes Ukraine he would be forced to pay for Visa to visit, that is out of the question for the piss poor Trench, he told us so many times now.

I think you’ve hit the nail on the head. :thumbsup:

Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: GQBlues on January 27, 2022, 10:37:17 AM
Ka-Ching!!!!!

Here we go fellas! We are again in desperate need to feed the beast! Screw the citizens of Ukraine! The US is in supersonic gear to hasten this war and push you guys in the brink of massive devastation. Regardless of what Ukrainians or even Zelensky feels about their situation, the US is the ultimate judge of their welfare.

ONE DAY after the meeting held, this happened:

Russia-Ukraine Crisis Deescalating As NATO Countries Break From Bellicose US-UK Stance

http://zububrothers.com/2022/01/25/russia-ukraine-crisis-deescalating-as-nato-countries-break-from-bellicose-us-uk-stance/

Yet Nanci Pelosi didn't want to waste any time at all, despite the sentiment expressed about de-escalation.

"..hastening a war-friendly posture without opportunity for dissent as concerns over a military invasion abound."

http://theintercept.com/2022/01/25/ukraine-defense-bill-democrats/ (http://theintercept.com/2022/01/25/ukraine-defense-bill-democrats/)

Whenever there's a *bipartisan* teamwork legislated by our politicians, WORLD WATCH OUT!!! The US desperately need to protect our liberty and freedom and cash in at your expense.

Cute.

This is what the other aisle is saying and believe about the situation in Ukraine:

Quote
Ukraine’s NSC Sec. Danilov tells BBC_UA he doesn’t expect an imminent invasion and doesn’t share “the panic,” which he connects to “geopolitical and domestic” processes in the West: “The buildup of Russian troops [at the Ukrainian border] isn’t as rapid as some claim”[/color]

http://twitter.com/atanessi/status/1485668665211199492]http://twitter.com/atanessi/status/1485668665211199492

Quote
Another top Ukraine official says there's no imminent threat of a new Russian invasion. Danilov of @ NSDC_ua says West has it wrong. So is West blowing this out of proportion? Does US have intel it's not sharing with Kyiv? Is Kyiv deliberately downplaying?"

http://twitter.com/ChristopherJM/status/1485680489591721997

If any of you still believes 2014 was a grassroot movement, go hug Fauci in the hallways. It took longer than planned, but those deplorables decided to get someone else in 2016 other than Hillary at the helm. But that's all behind us now, so onward to the show.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Trenchcoat on January 27, 2022, 03:09:41 PM
Russian Amphibious naval ships have entered the Med and look to be heading to the Black Sea:

http://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/russian-landing-ships-enter-the-mediterranean-sea/
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: fathertime on January 28, 2022, 06:52:15 AM
According to good old CNN, Ukraine has had about enough of the US trying to fan the flames of war.    So if Ukraine is fed up with us, why are we still there pretending to 'defend' them? 

New discord between Ukraine and US plays right into Putin's hands

New signs of a fracture between the US and Ukraine over the imminence of a possible Russian invasion could seriously undermine President Joe Biden's muscular front against Vladimir Putin in their escalating standoff.

Frustration in Kyiv has mounted in recent days over escalating US rhetoric on the crisis, even as Moscow pours more troops into positions near the Ukrainian border. Washington and its allies have been waging an unusually open and vocal public relations warfare campaign -- an approach that primarily appears rooted in genuine fears of a major conflagration in Ukraine.


  http://www.cnn.com/2022/01/28/politics/president-joe-biden-zelensky-putin-russia-ukraine/index.html  (http://www.cnn.com/2022/01/28/politics/president-joe-biden-zelensky-putin-russia-ukraine/index.html)

Fathertime! 
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: GQBlues on January 28, 2022, 07:00:33 AM
The US/UK desperately need another ‘war’. It’s been 4 long months! Flatten Kyiv so we can again flood the region with weapons of war.

Ka-Ching!
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Trenchcoat on January 28, 2022, 11:11:53 PM
According to good old CNN, Ukraine has had about enough of the US trying to fan the flames of war.    So if Ukraine is fed up with us, why are we still there pretending to 'defend' them? 

New discord between Ukraine and US plays right into Putin's hands

New signs of a fracture between the US and Ukraine over the imminence of a possible Russian invasion could seriously undermine President Joe Biden's muscular front against Vladimir Putin in their escalating standoff.

Frustration in Kyiv has mounted in recent days over escalating US rhetoric on the crisis, even as Moscow pours more troops into positions near the Ukrainian border. Washington and its allies have been waging an unusually open and vocal public relations warfare campaign -- an approach that primarily appears rooted in genuine fears of a major conflagration in Ukraine.


  http://www.cnn.com/2022/01/28/politics/president-joe-biden-zelensky-putin-russia-ukraine/index.html  (http://www.cnn.com/2022/01/28/politics/president-joe-biden-zelensky-putin-russia-ukraine/index.html)

Fathertime!

FT, Ukrainians are shitting themselves and are starting to crack psychologically. It's not just Zelensky, the funny man who no longer seems to find things so cheerful, Ukrainian girls I message online well at first they were acting not so concerned, now they are increasingly overtly showing their distress. It's got to be a distressing situation being surrounded by the military of a much more powerful neighbour particularly as time gets on and the build up gets steadily larger.

I think Zelensky is partly right in what he says I don't think the west care that much in whether the situation gets wound up so that both Russia and Ukraine get into a more tense situation.

That said Ukraine wanted help so they were partly to blame on that one also I think. The military equipment help might well end up causing Ukraine worse problems as a result unless they get lucky and Russia is dissuaded by it. Last night I was watching a demo of the anti-tank stuff we sent them, they have just begun training with it. I'll be honest, it was ok but I'm not so sure the range is all that brilliant on it, not for modern warfare where a tank can blast away from a distance away. It will probably take out some tanks and when it hits home it seems to do that but unless it can fire further away then I'm not so sure. I'm no expert on that stuff, the range was a fair distance just not really far from what I could make out.

Possibly Zelensky might be catching onto the fact that he could well end up in the pocket of either the US camp or Russia in terms of Ukraine being controlled by a puppeteer from behind the scenes. Sure they want NATO but my guess is that they won't be so keen on US money interests holding sway in Ukraine and calling the shots. They're best hope is in avoiding war happening otherwise either the US or Russia could become their new masters.

Ukraine becoming the playground of the US, an interesting prospect.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: John Gaunt on January 29, 2022, 06:25:02 AM
FT, Ukrainians are shitting themselves and are starting to crack psychologically. It's not just Zelensky, the funny man who no longer seems to find things so cheerful, Ukrainian girls I message online well at first they were acting not so concerned, now they are increasingly overtly showing their distress. It's got to be a distressing situation being surrounded by the military of a much more powerful neighbour particularly as time gets on and the build up gets steadily larger.

I think Zelensky is partly right in what he says I don't think the west care that much in whether the situation gets wound up so that both Russia and Ukraine get into a more tense situation.

That said Ukraine wanted help so they were partly to blame on that one also I think. The military equipment help might well end up causing Ukraine worse problems as a result unless they get lucky and Russia is dissuaded by it. Last night I was watching a demo of the anti-tank stuff we sent them, they have just begun training with it. I'll be honest, it was ok but I'm not so sure the range is all that brilliant on it, not for modern warfare where a tank can blast away from a distance away. It will probably take out some tanks and when it hits home it seems to do that but unless it can fire further away then I'm not so sure. I'm no expert on that stuff, the range was a fair distance just not really far from what I could make out.

Possibly Zelensky might be catching onto the fact that he could well end up in the pocket of either the US camp or Russia in terms of Ukraine being controlled by a puppeteer from behind the scenes. Sure they want NATO but my guess is that they won't be so keen on US money interests holding sway in Ukraine and calling the shots. They're best hope is in avoiding war happening otherwise either the US or Russia could become their new masters.

Ukraine becoming the playground of the US, an interesting prospect.

Meanwhile, in the real world, Ukrainians are pretty calm and just getting on with life as normal.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Trenchcoat on January 29, 2022, 07:41:13 AM
Meanwhile, in the real world, Ukrainians are pretty calm and just getting on with life as normal.

They are getting on with life as best as normal as that's all they can do really. They are trying to remain calm of course but it's more a mask that is beginning to slip.

Here is the latest from a Putin insider who reckons that Ukraine would be finished within 48 hours:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10454611/Putins-build-forces-Ukraine-border-biggest-Cold-War-says-USs-general.html

With the devastating weapons at Putin's hands he may well be right.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Chelseaboy on January 29, 2022, 07:49:18 AM
Yet with all these devastating weapons Russian armed forces were defeated in Afghanistan . :rolleyes:


15,000 of their armed forces  were killed out there before they had to withdraw.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: fathertime on January 29, 2022, 08:44:43 AM


Ukraine becoming the playground of the US, an interesting prospect.

I don't think it will get to that point.  I don't think anybody wants that, aside from the US.

They are getting on with life as best as normal as that's all they can do really. They are trying to remain calm of course but it's more a mask that is beginning to slip.

Here is the latest from a Putin insider who reckons that Ukraine would be finished within 48 hours:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10454611/Putins-build-forces-Ukraine-border-biggest-Cold-War-says-USs-general.html

With the devastating weapons at Putin's hands he may well be right.

This will not happen either. 

Yet with all these devastating weapons Russian armed forces were defeated in Afghanistan . :rolleyes:


15,000 of their armed forces  were killed out there before they had to withdraw.
In recent times, war isn't what it could be.   For example, Russia could completely annihilate Ukraine.  The US could have wiped out every single person in Iraq/Afghanistan and avoided defeat.  It just doesn't seem to work that way anymore.  Militarily Partial victory, partial loss is all nations seem to strive for. 

Fathertime! 
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: John Gaunt on January 29, 2022, 09:24:03 AM
They are getting on with life as best as normal as that's all they can do really. They are trying to remain calm of course but it's more a mask that is beginning to slip.

Here is the latest from a Putin insider who reckons that Ukraine would be finished within 48 hours:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10454611/Putins-build-forces-Ukraine-border-biggest-Cold-War-says-USs-general.html

With the devastating weapons at Putin's hands he may well be right.
Yes, the Daily Mail is such a great news source.  :clapping: :clapping:
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: John Gaunt on January 29, 2022, 09:26:36 AM
Yet with all these devastating weapons Russian armed forces were defeated in Afghanistan . :rolleyes:


15,000 of their armed forces  were killed out there before they had to withdraw.
Traditional war fighting and weaponry is not much use against asymmetrical warfare and insurgencies.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: GQBlues on January 29, 2022, 09:28:51 AM
Due to the anticipated massacre of the Ukrainian troops, despite being armed with highly ineffective near-obsolete British anti-tank missiles. France, in partnership with Canadian 'Tony Starks'-like war making wizards, decided to immediately shipped their highly secretive anti-tank weaponry. It is held by the Pentagon as the 'Equalizer'.


1,000 arrive late Friday afternoon, with 3,000 more in transit.


The first line of rehearsals were immediately conducted to put the fear on the Russian troops amassed along the frontline. Videos were uploaded on social media as part of propaganda campaign by the western powers. Pentagon intelligence have compiled proofs that both troops on the frontline are taking photos and videos of their locations, along with classified intelligence of troops movements, to their girlfriends on Tik Tok, Instagram and Facebook.


Here's the first devastating drill that took place last evening: Caution: For the weak of heart, please do not watch.


http://youtu.be/0owMuOuIuRw (http://youtu.be/0owMuOuIuRw)
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: John Gaunt on January 29, 2022, 09:29:04 AM
I don't think it will get to that point.  I don't think anybody wants that, aside from the US.

This will not happen either. 
In recent times, war isn't what it could be.   For example, Russia could completely annihilate Ukraine.  The US could have wiped out every single person in Iraq/Afghanistan and avoided defeat.  It just doesn't seem to work that way anymore.  Militarily Partial victory, partial loss is all nations seem to strive for. 

Fathertime!
When the enemy is the population at large who do you reply heavy weaponry against?
Tanks are of no use against an enemy that fights from the shadows.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: fathertime on January 29, 2022, 09:41:56 AM


Here's the first devastating drill that took place last evening: Caution: For the weak of heart, please do not watch.


http://youtu.be/0owMuOuIuRw (http://youtu.be/0owMuOuIuRw)

Did it explode on them afterwords?  The panicked scream indicates danger.

Fathertime!
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: GQBlues on January 29, 2022, 10:33:14 AM
Our world is in turmoil. Ukraine had once again became the knot in the political tugging rope between global forces that constantly shun any sense of moral, responsibility, integrity and respect especially to the less advanced countries we label as 3rd world.

While Ukraine can not be classified as 3rd world, its current plight of having to balance its alliance today put it in a very unenviable, compromising and dangerous predicament.

Is an alliance with Russia really all that bad? Historically, it was both bloody, yet fulfilling. More or less depending on your perspective.

Is an alliance with Europe going to be good or bad? Historically, you need not look back a hundred years and understand the genocidal experience Ukrainians have had to endure at the hands of Europeans.

What about the US? Well, while there hasn't been much history with the US, Ukrainians need to simply excuse themselves in projecting what an alliance is like with the US, but just look at the many south American nations still skimming for survival much less prosperity in the shadows of Uncle Sam. Personally, especially the last quarter century, heightened in the past 10; American in my eyes, have completely lost what it ever stood for as that beacon on a hill.

All of these madness by the power nations against countries still reeling from the colonial era continues today. Albeit in many varying covert ways. Citizens of these nations have been blinded by their respective government it commits against humanity in so many varying forms.

The US bombing of the aid worker and his entire family, in the act of providing aid to the needy, and simply classified as an honest mistake. US soldiers caught pissing over dead Afghan Taliban soldiers in front to Afghans and children and laugh about it. These soldiers come home and are celebrated as heroes, thanks for their 'services'. We wonder why, Afghans didn't seem to be fully on board with the US showing them our type of democracy. As an America, the once United States, I laid witness front and center how 'we' conduct and orchestrate 'democracy', we force to everyone, here, I don't take long anymore to not take this seriously anymore either.

Terrorists, Jihadists, Pirates, etc...our societies have labeled these militants as the legions of evil these days. How can these demons behave this way in the 21st centuries. Refugees of global commerce...

Pirates. Remember the Somalian pirates? Ever wonder why Somalians have the need to become 'pirates'? Breaking maritime international law by capturing civilians/commercial ships, boarding it under artillery, demanding ransom?

So I ask, what would you do as an ordinary Somalian trying to feed your famished family when your own fishing grounds you once relied upon have all become sterile, if not hazardous to fish on? Western media have never told European citizens outright exactly why there are Somalian pirates terrorizing waters in and around their nation. Complicit in dumping their nuclear, toxic waste on Somalia, along with other African nations, are Germany, Italy, and France. Nations chiefly behind *sustainable energy, climate change/global warming initiatives, etc.../Paris Accord/ Kyoto Treaty*. Same nations that will brag to you about 'advancing their societies like no other.

What they won't tell you, just as it was in the documentary Darwin's Theory, and in some respect what is happening in Ukraine today - the fate that may befall upon them; trade its citizens their criminal complicity in exchange for weapons of war. Europeans dumped their toxic/nuclear waste in these countries territorial waters. Paving the way for future of these nations to remain at the mercy of the 'elite' amongst us.

http://theecologist.org/2009/mar/01/somalia-used-toxic-dumping-ground (http://theecologist.org/2009/mar/01/somalia-used-toxic-dumping-ground)

http://www.inigerian.com/environmental-racism-dumping-europes-toxic-wastes-in-africa-other-poor-countries/ (http://www.inigerian.com/environmental-racism-dumping-europes-toxic-wastes-in-africa-other-poor-countries/)

So yes, in the end I do feel so sorry for Ukraine, it matters not whether this war actually breaks out. Because either way, they are in a situation to having to choose to partner with the Devil they know, and the Devil they don't.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: fathertime on January 29, 2022, 07:14:32 PM

What about the US? Well, while there hasn't been much history with the US, Ukrainians need to simply excuse themselves in projecting what an alliance is like with the US, but just look at the many south American nations still skimming for survival much less prosperity in the shadows of Uncle Sam. Personally, especially the last quarter century, heightened in the past 10; American in my eyes, have completely lost what it ever stood for as that beacon on a hill.


5 years ago this site would have had another riot when I made similiar statements.  Nowadays many of the same posters know it is mostly true. 

Fathertime! 
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Trenchcoat on January 29, 2022, 09:42:27 PM
In theory instead of spheres of influence I think the old Eastern bloc countries would be better off as neutral zone classified do neither Russia nor NATO have any influence over either, they can't be a part of NATO nor the Russian Alliance. Both essentially agree to keep out, those countries may band together to form their own joint defence force or may call on either NATO or Russia if one of them were to invade. In addition Russia would have to agree not to conduct Invasion scale of exercises near their border, NATO too obviously as well.

I also think that the former Eastern Bloc countries would be better off in their own East European Union rather than the EU. They basically have a different culture to west European countries and trying to get them to fit into that straight jacket isn't good for them or the EU. I think a lot of this goes back to wrong choices made in the nineties at the end of the cold war/break up of the USSR. One of those was Ukraine giving up all of its nuclear missiles, to my mind they should have kept about a hundred of those missiles of the 5000 or so. In that way they wouldn't be were they are now but still have something of a reasonable size to deter any aggression.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: BC on January 30, 2022, 07:16:51 AM

In theory instead of spheres of influence I think the old Eastern bloc countries would be better off as neutral zone classified do neither Russia nor NATO have any influence over either, they can't be a part of NATO nor the Russian Alliance. Both essentially agree to keep out, those countries may band together to form their own joint defence force or may call on either NATO or Russia if one of them were to invade. In addition Russia would have to agree not to conduct Invasion scale of exercises near their border, NATO too obviously as well.

And who would decide what these sovereign states should do or not do? Russia and the US?  Funny thoughts Trench but a bucket full of nothing.

Quote
I also think that the former Eastern Bloc countries would be better off in their own East European Union rather than the EU. They basically have a different culture to west European countries and trying to get them to fit into that straight jacket isn't good for them or the EU.

Total BS. EU is as diverse as it gets with 24 or so official languages just to mention one point. It is an economic and political union with political, legal and trade frameworks, not a cultural one.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: GQBlues on January 30, 2022, 08:14:08 AM
5 years ago this site would have had another riot when I made similiar statements.  Nowadays many of the same posters know it is mostly true. 

Fathertime!

True. 5 years ago, you were part of the silly ‘resistance’ on this board who subscribed, advance and spread *misinformation / disinformation* aka fake news, skimmed from mainstream media like CNN, MSNBC trying so hard to subvert the 2016 election result. Posted many of those fake news as support of their ‘proof’.

Yeah, I remember. All your posts, and others, are still here.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: fathertime on January 30, 2022, 08:41:00 AM
True. 5 years ago, you were part of the silly ‘resistance’ on this board who subscribed, advance and spread *misinformation / disinformation* aka fake news, skimmed from mainstream media like CNN, MSNBC trying so hard to subvert the 2016 election result. Posted many of those fake news as support of their ‘proof’.

Yeah, I remember. All your posts, and others, are still here.

I don't think so.  I don't think I disputed Donald Trump won the election in 2016.  I recall thinking he DID win the election.   I do remain suspicious of what his surrogates did behind the scenes although he did win the election, by any means necessary....which is typical for US elections. 

I was referring to comments made regarding what the US was doing globally, mostly in the Obama years so it would have been 2014-2016 era. 

Fathertime! 
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: BC on January 30, 2022, 09:03:01 AM
Did it explode on them afterwords?  The panicked scream indicates danger.

Fathertime!

Looks scary, but actually more dangerous walking across a crosswalk.  Such can and does happen with any weapons system.  There are multiple safety systems to prevent detonation.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: BC on January 30, 2022, 09:04:53 AM
Yeah, I remember. All your posts, and others, are still here.

Maybe show instead of tell.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: fathertime on January 30, 2022, 09:19:54 AM
Looks scary, but actually more dangerous walking across a crosswalk.  Such can and does happen with any weapons system.  There are multiple safety systems to prevent detonation.

Yeah, either way.....I think I'd crap my pants if that 'dud' dropped 3 feet from me

Maybe show instead of tell.
I'm curious what he can come with it, using words of mine, in context.   Probably a mostly false statement he made.  That said, I'm sure I posted some articles regarding trump and how his surrogates were accused of courting Russia.   I still believe that is probably true, yet the election happened because Trump had a lot of support from key states (At the time), in the US.    Four years later, he lost some of that support, and awakened others to vote, and Biden is at the helm now. 

Fathertime! 
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: GQBlues on January 30, 2022, 09:48:33 AM
Maybe show instead of tell.

Cute.

I'm curious what he can come with it, using words of mine, in context.   Probably a mostly false statement he made.  That said, I'm sure I posted some articles regarding trump and how his surrogates were accused of courting Russia.   I still believe that is probably true, yet the election happened because Trump had a lot of support from key states (At the time), in the US.    Four years later, he lost some of that support, and awakened others to vote, and Biden is at the helm now. 

Fathertime! 

It’s been said, answers are closer than they appear. One just needs to be a bit more focus.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Trenchcoat on January 30, 2022, 10:17:32 AM
And who would decide what these sovereign states should do or not do? Russia and the US?  Funny thoughts Trench but a bucket full of nothing.

Total BS. EU is as diverse as it gets with 24 or so official languages just to mention one point. It is an economic and political union with political, legal and trade frameworks, not a cultural one.

Most (but not all) of the Eastern Bloc countries are Slavic and most have had the Soviet culture become a part of their culture, Patriarchy, Stoic, working people, hardness, and the men prone to alcoholism.

Their ways and outlook are pretty similar. The EU is a west European contrived concept full of west European values. It was formed as the EC/EEC during Soviet times and even when it became the EU after the fall of the Soviet Union the Eastern Bloc countries didn't join until way later in the 21st century.

"It is an economic and political union with political, legal and trade frameworks, not a cultural one."

That is what a lot of countries don't like or didn't/don't want, first the UK now Poland, Hungary and Romania don't want. The EU are ignoring culture band trying to weld everyone into the same boring non-culture of their bureaucratic requirements. People didn't really want a union in many parts of Europe they just wanted an association. By spreading itself over many different cultures the EU has caused itself problems with being an effective organisation for its member states. The EU actually worked way better when it was just western Europe, it was small enough to take its member considerations into account, it may not have been perfect but it worked more effectively for its members. The EU expanding to the Eastern Bloc is really where it couldn't focus on being effective for its members and turned into a bloated power hungary with little interest in what its members wanted.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Boethius on January 30, 2022, 03:05:08 PM
Stop with the inaccurate stereotypes, Trench.


Slavic culture is not monolithic. 
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: fathertime on January 30, 2022, 03:32:35 PM


It’s been said, answers are closer than they appear. One just needs to be a bit more focus.

(http://i.discogs.com/FxZmRpIXHGbihvdXhxwJlr7mhRxbGjq7CqAc0C9x5PU/rs:fit/g:sm/q:90/h:529/w:600/czM6Ly9kaXNjb2dz/LWltYWdlcy9SLTM4/NDM1OTMtMTUzNTkw/NDY1NS02OTExLmpw/ZWc.jpeg)

Fathertime! 
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Trenchcoat on January 31, 2022, 05:18:08 AM
Stop with the inaccurate stereotypes, Trench.


Slavic culture is not monolithic.

I know they're not all the same or necessarily that similar but even a related connection coupled with the Soviet times, working class culture it will give some similarities in my view.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Boethius on January 31, 2022, 12:19:24 PM
Well, your view would be wrong.


You picked up the term "working class" from my posts, and you misunderstand it.


Poland, for example, was very different, culturally, from Russia.  So was East Germany.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Trenchcoat on February 01, 2022, 01:03:12 AM
Well, your view would be wrong.


You picked up the term "working class" from my posts, and you misunderstand it.


Poland, for example, was very different, culturally, from Russia.  So was East Germany.

Originally yes but didn't the Russians eliminate the Polish Army Officer corps during Soviet times. That and WWII and likely the usual Soviet system placed on them would make their outlook somewhat similar moreso than western Europe I would have thought. Add in the usual Soviet concrete block Architecture, etc and it's all shapes them I believe.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Boethius on February 01, 2022, 11:02:03 AM
Nope.  Poland was not like the USSR.  Ever.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Trenchcoat on February 02, 2022, 10:24:05 AM
Kind of thinking we might have put off the Russians on this whole invasion thing. I think the combination of the anti tank, etc gear and the large numbers of civilians wiling to take up arms may have swung it. End of the day if Russia trues to obliterate cities in Ukraine with its missiles it will destroy the population and the housing. Russia doesn't really have a growing population so it doesn't help it much to inherit a wasteland if blown apart cities and industry and few people to be there.

Even if Russia were to pick through it piece by piece it would likely be a problem.

Looks like Putin is moving more towards what minor agreements may be made with the west as a face saving way out in my opinion. Still no certainties I guess, just a case of seeing what comes it seems.

Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: GQBlues on February 03, 2022, 09:46:29 AM
With the latest US attempt to further provoked war in Ukraine, it incoherently moved 3,000 troops to Romania yesterday. Why is this incessant need to place Ukraine in an unenviable predicament to be at the center of this mindless confrontation.


Sen. Josh Hawley this week asked this very obvious obsession. He proclaimed that if war can be avoided by agreeing to abide by Russia's request that Ukraine cannot be made a member of NATO, a sentiment broadly shared by many western European alliance, why is it so hard for us (the US) to see this through? Ukraine can still be whatever it wished to be without having to be a NATO member. Especially considering it will be front and center of a devastating war as a consequence.


The US instigated a 2014 coup to open this avenue. It resulted in an ugly civil war. Ukrainians dearly suffered for it. Now that you have pretty much the same DC players at the helm, we are taking the next step we sprung in 2014. This is simply madness.


Yesterday, when asked about Josh Hawley's statement, Jen Psaki's response at the press briefing was to accuse Hawley as parroting Russian propaganda. Had the US really changed its ideal this dramatically? Have we really sunk this low?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oiy9KOR4PfY[/c]


WTF?
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Boethius on February 03, 2022, 09:59:29 AM
Why should Russia get to decide if Ukraine, an independent sovereign nation, can, or cannot join NATO?  Had Putin not sent troops to the Georgian border in 2008, and invaded Crimea in 2014, there likely would be calls to disband NATO. 


There was no "coup" against Yanukovych.  He abused his position, and people demonstrated.  Had he not fired on crowds, he likely would have been able to end his term in office.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: GQBlues on February 03, 2022, 10:07:55 AM
Why should Russia get to decide if Ukraine, an independent sovereign nation, can, or cannot join NATO?  Had Putin not sent troops to the Georgian border in 2008, and invaded Crimea in 2014, there likely would be calls to disband NATO. 


Ukraine can be what it wants, on its own. They, alone, should go right into the heart of Russian front today. Why has it not done so? Do you know? You seem to speak for all Ukrainians. You should be out there along with them charging the Russia frontlines, not in the cold comfort of Canada thousands of miles from the hot zone.


I don't see Georgia 'suffering' today by not becoming a NATO member, do you?

Quote
There was no "coup" against Yanukovych.  He abused his position, and people demonstrated.  Had he not fired on crowds, he likely would have been able to end his term in office.


Your opinion. Based on all the unfolding events, then and now, reality dictates otherwise.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Boethius on February 03, 2022, 10:22:58 AM
I'm not speaking for anyone.  But I am telling you what Ukrainian polls say.  There was no desire by Ukrainians to join NATO in 2014.  Until Russia invaded Crimea.  There would be no need for NATO if Russia was not a bellicose expansionist regime. 


Georgia has a "frozen conflict" on its border to today, thanks to Russia.


No, it's not my opinion.  The demonstrations against Yanukovych initially were funded by Tymoshenko and were insincere.  But, they grew because he became too arrogant, which is something, given it's Ukraine.  It wasn't instigatged by the US, although the US certainly swooped in for their own interests.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: GQBlues on February 03, 2022, 10:47:03 AM
I'm not speaking for anyone.  But I am telling you what Ukrainian polls say.  There was no desire by Ukrainians to join NATO in 2014.  Until Russia invaded Crimea.  There would be no need for NATO if Russia was not a bellicose expansionist regime. 

Wrong. If Google can't help you with this, research 2008 Bucharest NATO conference. I'll make it easier for you: http://www.jstor.org/stable/48505017 (http://www.jstor.org/stable/48505017)

Quote
For the first time since NATO’s creation, the USA was defeated at an alliance summit with regard to a priority goal it had set—the inclusion of Ukraine and Georgia in NATO. That is the most notable fact about the Bucharest Summit that history will record. Yet most Western media reports surprisingly omitted this momentous failure. The summit also revealed increased tensions between the US and Russia accompanied by new intra-European divisions, which narrowed the EU’s scope for action. The EU is indeed paralysed by a new East–West crisis whose most visible manifestation was Moscow’s recognition of the independence of South Ossetia and Abkhazia.


In conference with Georgia and Ukraine prior to the summit, Bush moved to further the aliiance by offering MAP (membership action plan) for the inclusion of Georgia and Ukraine. It was broadly rejected by notable NATO members then, as they do today. Notably Germany. A British diplomat attending the summit said: There's little appetite amongst member to inherent a east/west conflict if Ukraine became a member of NATO.

Quote
Georgia has a "frozen conflict" on its border to today, thanks to Russia.


Its borders doesn't keep Georgia from being, and doing, what it wants. Same goes for Austria, Sweden Finland, Ireland, etc...Latvia, Estonia, Lithuania have, for all intents and purposes, a 'frozen conflict' as well, whatever that means

Quote
No, it's not my opinion.  The demonstrations against Yanukovych initially were funded by Tymoshenko and were insincere.  But, they grew because he became too arrogant, which is something, given it's Ukraine.  It wasn't instigatged by the US, although the US certainly swooped in for their own interests.

It is simply that, an opinion. You can add in whatever anecdotes you want to further bungle that up, like I said, simply watching unfolding events then and now - reality dictates otherwise.[/quote]
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: SteveInBoston on February 03, 2022, 02:30:11 PM

Ukraine can be what it wants, on its own. They, alone, should go right into the heart of Russian front today. Why has it not done so? Do you know? You seem to speak for all Ukrainians. You should be out there along with them charging the Russia frontlines, not in the cold comfort of Canada thousands of miles from the hot zone.


I don't see Georgia 'suffering' today by not becoming a NATO member, do you?


Your opinion. Based on all the unfolding events, then and now, reality dictates otherwise.

Yes, Ukraine should be what it wants, on its own.  I agree 100%.

It would be nice if a neighboring country didn't amass troops on it's border and make demands of it, tell it what it should do or be invaded.

T was in Donesk in 2014, demonstrating in the streets until Yanukovych forces initiated a crackdown.  She fled from her home to Mariupol and was there when the conflict broke out. She is against violence but she did what she could - donate supplies, help with logistics, whatever.  And she will return to volunteer again if Russia invades, though Mariupol basically doesn't have much of a chance.  She'll travel to where she can and do what she can.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Boethius on February 03, 2022, 03:18:34 PM
http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=22223.msg561882#msg561882

Just because you use google, don't assume everyone else does.  My information comes from reading Ukrainian newspapers, and Ukrainian polls.  Not google.

Your American centric perspective is demonstrated yet again.  Whether Bush, or anyone else wanted Ukraine to join NATO is irrelevant.  Ukrainians never wanted to join NATO.  Even today, with a threat of invasion, only 54% of Ukrainians would be willing to join NATO.  There are over 4 million Ukrainians living in Russia.  Most Ukrainians use Russian as their primary language.  Most read Russian papers. Russia remains Ukraine's largest trading partner.  While Ukrainians want stronger ties to the EU, perceiving them as less authoritarian than Russia, Russia will always remain important to Ukraine.  That's a geographical and hence, political and economic reality.  Were there no threat of Russian invasion, I can guarantee the desire to join NATO would move back to the less than 20% territory it was at before 2014.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: GQBlues on February 03, 2022, 04:21:12 PM
http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=22223.msg561882#msg561882 (http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=22223.msg561882#msg561882)

Just because you use google, don't assume everyone else does.  My information comes from reading Ukrainian newspapers, and Ukrainian polls.  Not google.

LMAO! I'm not stupid enough to use Google. Hence I never bought into the Steele Dossier et al. I know many here did.

Quote
Your American centric perspective is demonstrated yet again.  Whether Bush, or anyone else wanted Ukraine to join NATO is irrelevant.

It's only irrelevant because you were ignorant of the 2008 Bucharest Summit. But nice attempt to deflect. Feel free to rewrite history that Bush (the US) singlehandedly, unbeknownst to both Ukraine and Georgia, that there were inscribed to be NATO members because the US said so, LMAO. Funny at how hard you try.

Quote
Ukrainians never wanted to join NATO.  Even today, with a threat of invasion, only 54% of Ukrainians would be willing to join NATO.

Considering it was Zelensky who lit this current fire with Russia by re-advancing Ukraine's aspiration for a NATO membership last June, despite that message (Zelensky's) was met with ambivalence by NATO's leadership, even by Blinken. Yet, here is where Ukraine is today.

Like I said, Ukraine can be what it wants to be - freely. Hell, little Georgia did what it aspired in 2008, and Georgia was in a far more disadvantage position in all angles than Ukraine is today - alone. They should tell the US/Brits et al to back off, and that they'll confront the evil empire themselves and earn their own way to a 24 hour fitness club membership, or any club membership they sought.

Quote
There are over 4 million Ukrainians living in Russia.  Most Ukrainians use Russian as their primary language.  Most read Russian papers. Russia remains Ukraine's largest trading partner.  While Ukrainians want stronger ties to the EU, perceiving them as less authoritarian than Russia, Russia will always remain important to Ukraine.  That's a geographical and hence, political and economic reality.  Were there no threat of Russian invasion, I can guarantee the desire to join NATO would move back to the less than 20% territory it was at before 2014.

Which was my very point when I initially said the US's stupid posturing today is only inciting deeper level of confrontation. Ukraine will pay dearly in this stupidity IF it doesn't declare removing itself from any aspiration of a NATO membership themselves. The best that can happen to Ukraine, forget Russia and the US, is to listen to what many of the NATO alliance believe - find a way to remove any talk of MAP while saving face, and not make NATO look weak at the same time in today's geopolitical condition.

Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Trenchcoat on February 03, 2022, 04:47:10 PM
Well we've done it again! Called out another planned false flag operation by Pootin:

http://news.sky.com/story/amp/ukraine-russia-tensions-moscows-plans-ruined-after-us-and-britain-call-out-possible-invasion-12532256

Maybe time for yours truly to go on holiday to Ukraine, I'll get to see lots of people running around in fatigues, will make for interesting sight seeing :D
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Chelseaboy on February 03, 2022, 06:34:28 PM
Maybe NATO needs to start amassing hundreds of thousands of troops in Estonia and Latvia on the border with Russia..along with Tanks and missile systems and backed by squadrons of Bombers and Fighter aircraft...enough to flatten St Petersburg..just for months of exercises of course.


Make sure the build-up is all filmed ....and then keep repeating we have no intention of invading Russia.


See how Putin likes it being done on his doorstep...the very thing he fears.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: fathertime on February 04, 2022, 06:49:32 AM
When the US senate agrees on something you can be sure it is something stupid. 

Senators close in on 'mother of all sanctions' bill against Russia

A bipartisan group of senators is within striking distance of a deal on a bill that would impose crippling sanctions on Russia for its hostilities against Ukraine.

"We are finding the path forward very clearly," said Sen. Jim Risch, top Republican on the Foreign Relations Committee, indicating that the White House and other key agencies were involved in the negotiations to agree on a deal ahead of any potential invasion by Russia, which has amassed more than 100,000 troops on Ukraine's border....
 

 http://www.yahoo.com/gma/senators-close-mother-sanctions-bill-224201318.html  (http://www.yahoo.com/gma/senators-close-mother-sanctions-bill-224201318.html)


Fathertime!
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: fathertime on February 04, 2022, 06:55:53 AM
Well we've done it again! Called out another planned false flag operation by Pootin:

http://news.sky.com/story/amp/ukraine-russia-tensions-moscows-plans-ruined-after-us-and-britain-call-out-possible-invasion-12532256

Maybe time for yours truly to go on holiday to Ukraine, I'll get to see lots of people running around in fatigues, will make for interesting sight seeing :D

My own belief is that this is US false flag, calling out a made-up Russian 'false flag'.    If Russia wanted to create a false flag it would have happened quickly.   

I think you should go to Ukraine now; most people are concerned about what might happen, but not you.  Babes falling at your feet, you will capture the cream of the crop, especially if you tote along the stockpile of toilet paper from the pandemic.

Fathertime! 
 
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: GQBlues on February 04, 2022, 09:22:38 AM
My own belief is that this is US false flag, calling out a made-up Russian 'false flag'.    If Russia wanted to create a false flag it would have happened quickly.   

Gee, of course it is. Tonkin Gulf - the Sequel. Expect anything different?

Just last weekend, Ukraine-based reporters had told of a major and angry Kyiv pushback against Biden for repeatedly firing warmongering rhetoric, and publishing heinously wrong assessments regarding current Kremlin plans and intent. Even the public announcement of deploying 2,000 soldiers to 'eastern Europe' in preparation for 'imminent Russian invasion' was admonished. Kyiv claimed their intelligence is polar opposite to the US's intelligence reports. This event was *almost* taken off US-based media reporting.

Instead, you now you have this story about US intelligence's 'Russian false flag' fable.

Our current US administration is ferrying the unsuccessful attempt by the same party (previous) administration's mission.

The US's military complex is in desperate need of this potentially massive profit infusion (http://inthesetimes.com/article/ukraine-russia-raytheon-lockheed-martin-general-dynamics-weapons-industry). We have a HUGE need to get these war machine wheels in motion. The sooner, the better. 2014 delay was simply troublesome.

Here's a pretty darn good example of the way the *US media/military complex/DC* conduct these things:

Look at this Politico Newsflash (http://www.politico.com/newsletters/national-security-daily/2022/01/18/psaki-russia-could-at-any-point-launch-an-attack-in-ukraine-495761). Then look at the picture I uploaded below. The current news link was immediately edited and 'removed' the notation " Presented by Lockheed", soon after initial release. But they weren't fast enough. It was caught on video as the picture below displays.

If there's any doubt, scroll way down the article and you'll see this little tidbit:

"Lockheed Martin's LMXT is built...."
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Trenchcoat on February 05, 2022, 04:22:31 AM
This report seems to suggest that Russia might have be bearing the completIon of its invasion plans:

http://news.sky.com/story/the-final-pieces-three-new-signs-of-russian-invasion-plans-for-ukraine-12533199

An interesting report and it looks from the surveillance pics included that it definitely looks like an invasion scale of set up. My guess is that Russia is only interested in utilizing a certain number of troops as it takes more effort to move more troops into position and they need the rest to guard the other borders particularly to guard against NATO troops on its border.

There are certainly signs they might be an invasion whether Russia has a strategy to take Ukraine without blowing it to bits I don't know, whether they care who knows. If they are intent on obliterating cities with their hyper thermal missiles then it would be a horrendous act of genocide which I don't think will be forgotten.

I know before I thought early Feb around the 4th-8th or so could be a possible invasion date. It's around that now, possibly just a case of the fleet assembling in the Black Sea and a few other final preparations then maybe?

Possibly Russia has been encouraged with how they seemed to do quite well in Syria and think it will be a quick easy fight possibly with the Ukrainian army losing heart once it's smashed along with civilians and them throwing bin the towel thereby avoiding use of its hyper thermal missiles. Looks like we might find out soon either an invasion or sone sort of small diplomatic get out for Russia to climb down without losing face I reckon.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: fathertime on February 05, 2022, 08:07:49 AM

I know before I thought early Feb around the 4th-8th or so could be a possible invasion date. It's around that now, possibly just a case of the fleet assembling in the Black Sea and a few other final preparations then maybe?
Invasion isn't on the table...never really has been.    No surprise element takes war of this kind off the table in my opinion.   There would be no months long obvious build up.

Fathertime!
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Trenchcoat on February 05, 2022, 09:48:37 AM
Invasion isn't on the table...never really has been.    No surprise element takes war of this kind off the table in my opinion.   There would be no months long obvious build up.

Fathertime!

You could be right though possibly they don't need surprise. With their superiority with missiles that is probably all they need. The tanks and ground troops just left to go in to mop up and most of all be stationed on the conquered territory.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: ML on February 05, 2022, 11:45:37 AM
Story focused on Kharkiv, Ukraine

http://tinyurl.com/2p97bn36
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: ML on February 05, 2022, 11:47:53 AM
There’s something oddly familiar about the Ukraine situation, perhaps because it’s part of an ongoing story involving Eastern Europe and the West. During and after the Second World War, the Soviet ruler Joseph Stalin regarded the boundaries and governance of Poland as a matter of great importance.  Stalin regarded Poland’s geography as inseparable from Russian security—much as Vladimir Putin, the current Russian leader, regards Ukraine, which shares a twelve-hundred-mile border with Russia. Stalin reminded Roosevelt that, “the Soviet Union is entitled to seek in Poland a Government that would be friendly to it.”
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Trenchcoat on February 06, 2022, 01:44:03 AM
There’s something oddly familiar about the Ukraine situation, perhaps because it’s part of an ongoing story involving Eastern Europe and the West. During and after the Second World War, the Soviet ruler Joseph Stalin regarded the boundaries and governance of Poland as a matter of great importance.  Stalin regarded Poland’s geography as inseparable from Russian security—much as Vladimir Putin, the current Russian leader, regards Ukraine, which shares a twelve-hundred-mile border with Russia. Stalin reminded Roosevelt that, “the Soviet Union is entitled to seek in Poland a Government that would be friendly to it.”

Soviet Troops had of course occupied Poland as the Nazis were defeated so I'm guessing it stands as common sense that he would install a friendly government. For Russia Ukraine gives it a long border to defend but for Ukraine also. In addition it's right in the way of an easy route south to the Black Sea. I think overall Putin regards certain areas as Russian, namely Belarus and Ukraine. Both regions were Russian under Catherine the Great but prior had other rulers. Both countries contain Russian speakers, likely Russian descendants and Cities have to a large extent been seen as historically Russian, Minsk, Kiev, Odessa, etc. Not do much Lviv which though had been Lvov under Russia was also known as Lemburg under Austria-Hungary.

End of the day I'm not stating these areas should be under control of Russia, there is plenty of argument either way. Plenty of times the area of Ukraine has been independent and other areas part of Poland, etc. I think Ukraine in the west has a distinct part of it that isn't really Russian. While I enjoyed Lviv a lot of it and it's people came across as fairly westernised to me.

Anyhow latest is that reports from the US seemingly think that Russia is 70 percent ready to invade:

BBC News - Ukraine tensions: US sources say Russia 70% ready to invade
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-60276342

Fathertime thinks they would do a surprise attack if they were going to invade. I'm not so sure as this report points out they need certain conditions to get their heavy weapons in plus of course you can only get so much along a road or railroad at a time. It can't all just magically appear at once or drip flow to the border and attack a piece at a time, that tends not to be a great setup for success.

Still a wait and see situation. This time feels a lot more real than last Spring when the Russians were at their 'training'. A lot more war games, in preparation perhaps, and more intensity to the build up I think. Could well be as one Ukrainian General predicted mid to late February around the end of the Olympics perhaps. Guess will have to see, could come any moment for all we know.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Boethius on February 06, 2022, 11:18:05 PM
It's only irrelevant because you were ignorant of the 2008 Bucharest Summit. But nice attempt to deflect. Feel free to rewrite history that Bush (the US) singlehandedly, unbeknownst to both Ukraine and Georgia, that there were inscribed to be NATO members because the US said so, LMAO. Funny at how hard you try.


No trying on my part.  You have a poor understanding of what occurred. 


Yushchenko was president of Ukraine during the Bucharest Summit.  He wanted Ukraine to be considered for NATO membership in the future.  Ukrainians have never supported joining NATO.  Never, until 2014.  That's a fact. 


G.W. Bush did state that NATO membership would be in the cards in the future. Bush and Obama have both held this out for Ukraine.  Only Trump said it will never happen.


Ukrainians have never been big on NATO membership.  Their presidents, adhering to kozachestvo (read about it - very important in Ukrainian history, and explains the mentality of Ukrainian politicians) did.  But it would never have occurred, as constitutionally, it has to be approved by Ukrainian voters.

Quote
Considering it was Zelensky who lit this current fire with Russia by re-advancing Ukraine's aspiration for a NATO membership last June, despite that message (Zelensky's) was met with ambivalence by NATO's leadership, even by Blinken. Yet, here is where Ukraine is today.


See above.

Quote
Like I said, Ukraine can be what it wants to be - freely. Hell, little Georgia did what it aspired in 2008, and Georgia was in a far more disadvantage position in all angles than Ukraine is today - alone. They should tell the US/Brits et al to back off, and that they'll confront the evil empire themselves and earn their own way to a 24 hour fitness club membership, or any club membership they sought.


LOL.  Well, your understanding is very flawed.  See above.

Quote
Which was my very point when I initially said the US's stupid posturing today is only inciting deeper level of confrontation. Ukraine will pay dearly in this stupidity IF it doesn't declare removing itself from any aspiration of a NATO membership themselves. The best that can happen to Ukraine, forget Russia and the US, is to listen to what many of the NATO alliance believe - find a way to remove any talk of MAP while saving face, and not make NATO look weak at the same time in today's geopolitical condition.


Ukrainians have no aspirations for NATO membership.  When all you can muster, even after an invasion, is 54% support, it's just not going to happen.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Trenchcoat on February 07, 2022, 01:20:01 AM
French President on his way to Moscow to try his hand at diplomatic resolution. Macron comes across as kind of arrogant so unless arrogance is what is needed then I don't hold out much hope.

Yesterday news of British SAS arriving in Ukraine to help train Ukraine forces in counter espionage/insurgency, etc. About a hundred in all, my guess would be that British troops training Ukrainians in anti-tank stuff are still out there. Danger being of course that Russia launches an attack while our forces are out there and kills some of them. That could then lead to a declaration of war potentially by the UK/NATO.

Russia certainly looks like it's readying itself for an invasion. These are apparently the crucial weeks that will see if it occurs or not. The ground starts to harden with frost making it a lot easier for heavy vehicles to move without churning up the ground and getting stuck. Russian ships in Syrian port at the moment to refuel & restock from their long journey around from the Baltic. Most likely next move will be to the Black Sea in the next few days. My guess is that it's all going to co-inside and cone together at once then just a case of whether or when they go ahead. Odds are they won't wait too long for the ground to thaw and will go off almost straight away.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/over-100-british-elite-troops-26150282.amp

They kind of look a bit Star Wars like in the pic lol :D

This report states that Russia will be ready to attack by 15th February so quite possible I guess. They reckon an attack could take place within the next ten days:

http://www.thesun.co.uk/news/17562199/sas-commandos-ukraine-russia-invasion/
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Chelseaboy on February 07, 2022, 02:58:53 AM
So British  elite battle-hardened troops,the best of the best, are now being sent to Ukraine....could be the thin end of the wedge,as they're the ones who set-up ground bases in conflict zones for everyone else.


"Over a hundred " could mean anything...enough to let the Russians know that they're there ,but keeping them guessing exactly how many have been sent in...it's the SAS/SBS way of doing things.


Boris Johnson did warn at his press conference whilst in Kiev that this potential conflict would be a military disaster for Russia and the World.


Seems that lines are starting to be drawn now.


The balls now in mad Vlad's court.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Trenchcoat on February 07, 2022, 05:35:20 AM
So British  elite battle-hardened troops,the best of the best, are now being sent to Ukraine....could be the thin end of the wedge,as they're the ones who set-up ground bases in conflict zones for everyone else.


"Over a hundred " could mean anything...enough to let the Russians know that they're there ,but keeping them guessing exactly how many have been sent in...it's the SAS/SBS way of doing things.


Boris Johnson did warn at his press conference whilst in Kiev that this potential conflict would be a military disaster for Russia and the World.


Seems that lines are starting to be drawn now.


The balls now in mad Vlad's court.

Indeed CB, a retired Russian General has come out against Putin warning him not to invade:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10484417/Top-hardline-Russian-general-warns-Putin-NOT-invade-Ukraine-accuses-criminal-policy.html

He was fired by Putin back in 2001 so could be sour grapes. Still if he thinks Putin is set to mount an invasion then he will likely have a fair idea of what indicates an invasion.

My thoughts are perhaps the SAS have been sent in on a humanitarian mission to rescue as many hotties as possible if Russia invades ;D

I see the travel advice from our foreign office has finally changed to a don't travel unless essential line. So indicating the strong possibility of a Russian Invasion it seems.

http://www.gov.uk/foreign-travel-advice/ukraine
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: GQBlues on February 07, 2022, 05:56:42 AM

No trying on my part.  You have a poor understanding of what occurred. 


Yushchenko was president of Ukraine during the Bucharest Summit.  He wanted Ukraine to be considered for NATO membership in the future.  Ukrainians have never supported joining NATO.  Never, until 2014.  That's a fact. 


G.W. Bush did state that NATO membership would be in the cards in the future. Bush and Obama have both held this out for Ukraine.  Only Trump said it will never happen.

I’m glad To see I was able to educate you again. LMAO.


Quote
Ukrainians have never been big on NATO membership.  Their presidents, adhering to kozachestvo (read about it - very important in Ukrainian history, and explains the mentality of Ukrainian politicians) did.  But it would never have occurred, as constitutionally, it has to be approved by Ukrainian voters.

See above.


LOL.  Well, your understanding is very flawed.  See above.

Ukrainians have no aspirations for NATO membership.  When all you can muster, even after an invasion, is 54% support, it's just not going to happen.

LMAO.

http://www.ukrinform.net/rubric-polytics/3241106-zelensky-expects-discussion-of-ukraines-map-prospects-to-begin-at-nato-summit-in-june.html

See above.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: GQBlues on February 07, 2022, 10:37:10 AM
 :exploding:

Matt Lee is a reporter from Associated Press. He is the perfect example of what real journalism in the US used to be like. Matt Lee was also the same reporter that was highly critical and deeply suspicious about the US's deep involvement in Ukraine's 2014 coup and ensuing civil war.

Here is Matt Lee exposing further US's BS, and its effort to lit the fire of war and military engagement in the current volatile situation along Ukraine's borders.


http://tinyurl.com/y23bpr3k

He asked the State Department to provide actual proof of the US's allegations about Russia's 'false flag' plan, which the US claimed to be a declassified intelligence, Ned Price not only cannot do so, but got very defensive and literally just told Matt Lee to simply 'take his word' for it.

We're suppose to just believe all the crap coming out of this white house? WTF?!? Here's a perfectly good example of the trash coming out of this current administration:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_AvpQT_4zpI
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: fathertime on February 07, 2022, 04:15:14 PM
We (The US) were already trying everything we could to prevent the Nord Stream 2 from being completed...and everybody important knows it.

I suspect that the US has done something not publicized much in the US to give Russia enough heartburn to amass troops near Ukraine.  So far none of our tricks have stopped the pipeline, and I suspect this one will either. 

Biden insists Nord Stream 2 will be halted if Russia invades Ukraine

President Biden insisted Monday that the Nord Stream 2 pipeline from Russia to Germany would be brought to an end if the Kremlin chose to launch a renewed military invasion of Ukraine.

"If Russia invades, that means tanks or troops crossing the border of Ukraine again, then there will be no longer a Nord Stream 2. We will bring an end to it," Biden said at a joint press conference with German Chancellor Olaf Scholz. "I promise you we will be able

 to do that."....


http://tinyurl.com/3evvv9x5
Fathertime! 
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: GQBlues on February 07, 2022, 04:47:42 PM
They (US administration) are as full of phsyt then as they are full of phsyt now. Jen Psaki when reporters drilled her, including Matt Lee, about US interference in Ukraine in the aftermath of the coup...they won't give a phsyt how many Ukrainians die for their greed now, as they didn't before...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jW1WDbDX7wE&t=192s











Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: ML on February 08, 2022, 09:15:43 PM
Sounds like a nice way to live.

Thanks to the Russian supporters who are enjoying inflicting this pain.

http://tinyurl.com/58e6rxzu
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: tfcrew on February 08, 2022, 11:07:47 PM
What about the Biden family's financial involvement in Ukraine that is constantly swept under the rug every time it crawls out?
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Trenchcoat on February 10, 2022, 01:31:28 AM
What about the Biden family's financial involvement in Ukraine that is constantly swept under the rug every time it crawls out?

No doubt a lot of vested interests from Biden & others in the US, the UK also I wouldn't mind betting. The UK seems particularly interested in this fight and I doubt it's because of the number of guys marrying Ukrainian women or for the benefit of UK sex tourists. My guess is that there is good money to be made out there. If the US/UK can get control of Ukraine and pull the strings from behind the scenes then they can get in a lot of US/UK companies, investment, etc and get lucrative deals. They will of course get their way in pretty much all that happens in Ukraine. On the plus side it may finally get rid of corruption if Ukraine is being controlled by the US/UK. On the other that may make it a lot more like western nations which is probably not good for us western guys going over there for girls, who knows.

Ukraine may have oil & gas it is thought, apparently exploration is needed and then extraction. It has been offering out contracts to tender for this mainly taken up by small companies but progress appears slow. So it may be one area the US/UK hope to get into.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Trenchcoat on February 10, 2022, 08:44:54 AM
Recent reports are that Russia & Belarus are conducting training for 10 days together. Putin's yacht has sailed for Kaliningrad from Germany to avoid being impounded by sanctions if Russia invades Ukraine. So both could be quite telling, that Russia intends to invade Ukraine but that it probably won't happen until at least 10 days time. So after the end of the Olympics on the 20th Feb could be about the time they may invade. That ties up with the time that Ukrainian General thought they might invade. Having messaged women out in Ukraine recently apparently it's getting quite stressful for them out there at the moment which is understandable really I guess.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: GQBlues on February 10, 2022, 10:55:23 AM
DOD rejected the recent letter request by Military Reporters & Editors Association sent of February 5, 2022 (http://militaryreporters.org/2022/02/military-reporters-editors-association-calls-for-the-resumption-of-embeds/); to embed journalist with US troops in the eastern flank/deployment.



Just like they rejected Libya bombing embedment.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Trenchcoat on February 10, 2022, 05:14:15 PM
Looks like the writing is on the wall now, Bisen is now telling Americans to get the hell out of Ukraine:

http://news.sky.com/story/us-president-joe-biden-says-american-citizens-should-leave-ukraine-now-12538715

I was astonished to hear how many Americans there are in Ukraine, many, many sex tourists with the same idea as me of living there no doubt, their lives potentially being turned upside down.

My guess this new announcement wouldn't have come without the US having some big tell tell warning signs coming in. Ukraine likely to lose out on a lot of revenue from the his action but then again if it all becomes Russian territory then that won't really matter I guess.

More bad news for Ukraine here:

BBC News - Ukraine tensions: Russia accused of sea blockade
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-60340232

Looks like Russia's fleet has arrived in the Black Sea now which was their supposed destination sailing around Europe from the North Sea.

http://news.usni.org/2022/02/08/six-ship-russian-navy-amphibious-group-attack-sub-approach-black-sea-as-warships-mass-in-the-mediterranean

Looks like all their forces are now converging in place, a few exercises then quite likely the invasion it's looking. Russia blockading Ukraine's sea ports will harm their economy for as long as it lasts of course. I kind of called it a few weeks ago that Russia's fleet arriving in the Black Sea would likely be the last piece falling into place before an attack. Looks like their present war games will co-inside with those in Belarus, so a few days then it all begins.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Chelseaboy on February 11, 2022, 08:41:38 AM
Ben Wallace ..UK Secretary of State for Defence speaking at a press conference in the British Embassy in Moscow has just said he doesn't think British people need to leave Ukraine.


He also said there are no plans to send Special Forces Troops to Ukraine..and not to believe everything you read in the media.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Jumper1 on February 11, 2022, 08:51:43 AM
No doubt a lot of vested interests from Biden & others in the US, the UK also I wouldn't mind betting. The UK seems particularly interested in this fight and I doubt it's because of the number of guys marrying Ukrainian women or for the benefit of UK sex tourists. My guess is that there is good money to be made out there. If the US/UK can get control of Ukraine and pull the strings from behind the scenes then they can get in a lot of US/UK companies, investment, etc and get lucrative deals. They will of course get their way in pretty much all that happens in Ukraine. On the plus side it may finally get rid of corruption if Ukraine is being controlled by the US/UK. On the other that may make it a lot more like western nations which is probably not good for us western guys going over there for girls, who knows.

Ukraine may have oil & gas it is thought, apparently exploration is needed and then extraction. It has been offering out contracts to tender for this mainly taken up by small companies but progress appears slow. So it may be one area the US/UK hope to get into.

The money to be made out there is it's completely corrupt.
   Government officials need ways to launder the money they *cough steal.
Ukraine's a perfect place for that, and well versed in it.


Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Trenchcoat on February 12, 2022, 12:14:57 AM
Ben Wallace ..UK Secretary of State for Defence speaking at a press conference in the British Embassy in Moscow has just said he doesn't think British people need to leave Ukraine.


He also said there are no plans to send Special Forces Troops to Ukraine..and not to believe everything you read in the media.

Looks like the Foreign Office has now since decided otherwise:

BBC News - Russia-Ukraine crisis: UK nationals told to leave Ukraine
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-60355311

http://www.gov.uk/foreign-travel-advice/ukraine

Bisen gives US citizens 48 hours to leave as the US military won't be allowed to intervene to evacuate it's citizens after that and commercial flights may no longer be available:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10503325/amp/Americans-48-hours-leave-Ukraine-military-WONT-rescue-Steps-warnings.html

What all those agency girls who are reliant on western guys money are going to do who knows 🤷

Starting to look pretty telling from all of this I'm thinking.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Chelseaboy on February 14, 2022, 02:52:12 PM
British officials estimate that a further 14 Russian Battalions headed to the Ukraine border today..each Battalion containing about 800 troops.


This would take the number of Russian forces on the Ukraine border to over 150,000.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Trenchcoat on February 14, 2022, 04:36:46 PM
British officials estimate that a further 14 Russian Battalions headed to the Ukraine border today..each Battalion containing about 800 troops.


This would take the number of Russian forces on the Ukraine border to over 150,000.

Yeah to my mind it's definitely an invasion that is intended. The rest of the Russian army no doubt held back to defend Russia's extensive borders, especially to safeguard against any thought NATO might have if counterattacking.

As said in another post I think Russia's objective is to smash Ukraine's army with shelling and small missiles, move up to the key Ukrainian cities then bring about a negotiation with those willing to be a part of a new Pro-Russian Ukrainian government. They'll negotiate peace with Russia in its terms and the Russian army will withdraw. Likely Donbass & Lugansk will join the Russian Federation, Ukraine will agree that Crimea is Russian and Ukraine will not join NATO or the EU. Ukraine will likely grant access to Russia's Navy to use its port facilities in Odesa, Nikolaev, Kherson & Mariupol and other trade and political dealings. I think odds are Ukraine will change its city's names back to Russian version and probably the Orthodox church will rejoin Russia. So much as before 2014 just Ukraine more under the thumb of Russia.

I think Russia wants a conclusion to the separatist war in Eastern Ukraine, it us fed up of being in a stalemate with Russian soldiers listing their lives. Do yes I think Russia will invade Ukraine to deal with that along with other issues that it can see as bit being resolved any other way.

Precisely when Russia will attack, well it could be any time in the next few days. I'm not so sure of Wednesday but I think they are readying with finally movements before an attack now, around the end of the Olympics quite possibly. I'm guessing it's only days away now.

For us I largely go along with the line that it's not our fight, I have no connection out in Ukraine at present. I still wish to go to Ukraine in future though. Having thought this through it may not end up as bad for us as I thought. That of course doesn't feel great to say as Ukrainians could lose their lives but none of that is my wish or doing. I think there is a good possibility that a Pro-Russian Ukrainian government will keep the visa-free regime. I don't think that will bother Russia, it won't want Ukraine as an economic wasteland and I don't think it wants it as it's territory per se. Also Ukraine won't no longer be wanting to join the EU under a Pro-Russian Ukrainian government, hooray!!! They could quite likely Dutch the present tourist visa agreement they have for it's citizens with the EU, or the EU might because of the installation of a Pro-Russian government. So there may be possible up sides we haven't thought off. All a bit difficult to tell until it goes down but all may not be lost it us, my Odesa Dreams may still be on the table :)
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Trenchcoat on February 14, 2022, 05:26:06 PM
Yeah, this article about says it all, probably the one you saw CB:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10512661/amp/The-race-Kiev-Russian-forces-bid-topple-Ukraine-government-multi-axis-invasion.html

Reckons Russian forces are being boosted from 130,000 to 150,000 or more like you said CB. Apparently they reckon the Russians force is more composed for speed keeping the number down.

If the article is right and Ukraine has got most of their army in the east then Ukraine could be in for a quick defeat as Kyiv is going to be the main target. Possibly Russia may hope to target it and get to 'negotiating' with Pro-Russian elements to form a new government. Odds are though that they may have to go into Kyiv to kick out Ukrainian military elements. They may have to smash Ukraine's army in the east also to break it's will and stop it turning and coming towards Kyiv. I personally think Russia's luck would be in for it to be bloodless. I don't think Ukraine's military will stand down without being hammered first. It may come to the point where Russia decides to back out again if it looks like not enough of Ukraine's forces of influence will come over to make a Pro-Russian Ukrainian government possible. Many Ukrainians are known for being corrupt or out for what they can get regardless of the situation so maybe Russia will get what it wants. End of the day if Russia pushes it they may end up doing an Iraqi style regime change with their forces stuck in the country while they train a new force of Pro-Russian Ukrainian Army up to keep a new Pro-Russian Ukrainian government in power.

I think possibly also Russia may take a fair bit of land from Ukraine as it's own, in addition to Donetsk & Luhansk they may well take, Kharkiv all the way down to Mariupol to link up Crimea with the Black Sea. That will probably work for them as generally Russian speaking & Russian leaning part of Ukraine even if Russian aggression may aggrieve them they will likely be easier to control for Russia. Either that or a land tunnel agreement for Russia to access the Crimea although possibly they may not be so bothered about that now they have built a land bridge. I think a lot will depend on how it all goes down. Again Russia may not be too bothered about annexing large parts of Ukraine but more interested in a Pro-Russian Ukrainian government. If they can carry it out without too much blood lost then they will probably bank on being able to come to terms with the international community later. All depends on how it goes down during invasion as to the precise outcome I think.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Boethius on February 15, 2022, 01:19:50 AM
That will probably work for them as generally Russian speaking & Russian leaning part of Ukraine even if Russian aggression may aggrieve them they will likely be easier to control for Russia.


All those regions speak surzhik, not Russian, and they are predominantly ethnically Ukrainian.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Chelseaboy on February 15, 2022, 02:22:10 AM
Yeah, this article about says it all, probably the one you saw CB:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10512661/amp/The-race-Kiev-Russian-forces-bid-topple-Ukraine-government-multi-axis-invasion.html (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10512661/amp/The-race-Kiev-Russian-forces-bid-topple-Ukraine-government-multi-axis-invasion.html)

Reckons Russian forces are being boosted from 130,000 to 150,000 or more like you said CB. Apparently they reckon the Russians force is more composed for speed keeping the number down.

If the article is right and Ukraine has got most of their army in the east then Ukraine could be in for a quick defeat as Kyiv is going to be the main target. Possibly Russia may hope to target it and get to 'negotiating' with Pro-Russian elements to form a new government. Odds are though that they may have to go into Kyiv to kick out Ukrainian military elements. They may have to smash Ukraine's army in the east also to break it's will and stop it turning and coming towards Kyiv. I personally think Russia's luck would be in for it to be bloodless. I don't think Ukraine's military will stand down without being hammered first. It may come to the point where Russia decides to back out again if it looks like not enough of Ukraine's forces of influence will come over to make a Pro-Russian Ukrainian government possible. Many Ukrainians are known for being corrupt or out for what they can get regardless of the situation so maybe Russia will get what it wants. End of the day if Russia pushes it they may end up doing an Iraqi style regime change with their forces stuck in the country while they train a new force of Pro-Russian Ukrainian Army up to keep a new Pro-Russian Ukrainian government in power.

I think possibly also Russia may take a fair bit of land from Ukraine as it's own, in addition to Donetsk & Luhansk they may well take, Kharkiv all the way down to Mariupol to link up Crimea with the Black Sea. That will probably work for them as generally Russian speaking & Russian leaning part of Ukraine even if Russian aggression may aggrieve them they will likely be easier to control for Russia. Either that or a land tunnel agreement for Russia to access the Crimea although possibly they may not be so bothered about that now they have built a land bridge. I think a lot will depend on how it all goes down. Again Russia may not be too bothered about annexing large parts of Ukraine but more interested in a Pro-Russian Ukrainian government. If they can carry it out without too much blood lost then they will probably bank on being able to come to terms with the international community later. All depends on how it goes down during invasion as to the precise outcome I think.


BBC news saying that there are reports that Russia is pulling back some of it's troops from the Ukraine border this morning.


Lavrov has been pushing Putin to let diplomacy do it's work apparently.


The Russian media has been ridiculing the western media's claims that an invasion of Ukraine is imminent.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Trenchcoat on February 15, 2022, 03:11:56 AM

BBC news saying that there are reports that Russia is pulling back some of it's troops from the Ukraine border this morning.


Lavrov has been pushing Putin to let diplomacy do it's work apparently.


The Russian media has been ridiculing the western media's claims that an invasion of Ukraine is imminent.

If true it could just be a ruse though not sure how that would help. Just have to wait and see on that one I guess. This news report out today is an interesting one:

http://news.sky.com/story/russia-ukraine-crisis-protect-your-homeland-ukrainian-president-urges-politicians-who-have-fled-the-country-to-return-12542333

Apparently many business leaders, politicians, etc have cowardly fled Ukraine in fear of their lives and taking their money with them lol. They're not taking any chances and are putting their own lives and wealth first and let the rest of Ukrainians face any threat. Gaunty the President of Ukraine is asking for you to return! :D
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Trenchcoat on February 15, 2022, 03:31:16 AM

All those regions speak surzhik, not Russian, and they are predominantly ethnically Ukrainian.

As in mixed Russian with Ukrainian words or Ukrainian with mixed Russian words. In previous voting in Presidential Elections the Eastern regions of Ukraine always voted for the Pro-Russian candidate, indicating a preference towards Russia. So my guess is they wouldn't be too out of place annexed into Russia. Again I wouldn't wish it as it would mean a visa if I wanted to go there. My guess is that at most they would probably take Donetsk, Luhansk, Mariupol & Kharkiv and that would likely bit it and negotiate with Pro-Russian elements to put in control of the rest of Ukraine.

Surzhik can apparently take on other foreign language words. I've seen guys on You Tube mix Russian with English whenever they are stuck for the Russian word lol. Looks like it doesn't work too bad either.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Boethius on February 15, 2022, 03:35:42 AM
Nope.  Surzhik is spoken only in Ukraine, not Russia.  It is essentially a language in and of itself, neither Ukrainian nor Russian. 


Yanukovych only won overwhelming support in Crimea, Donestk and Luhansk. 
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Trenchcoat on February 15, 2022, 03:47:53 AM
This is the report that states a possible Russian withdrawal:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10513527/Putin-step-Russian-tanks-artillery-seen-moving-Ukraine-attack-positions.html

Apparently overnight the US has reported many Russian troops have actually moved closer to the border and that an attack looks likely by the weekend. After that Russia announced that sone troops had completed their exercises and were moving home. Doesn't seem like a lot, one unit in Crimea and one north of Ukraine's border. They could do easily move anywhere along the front line or back again. In recent days may more trips have arrived at the Ukrainian front so I'm not sure that it amounts to anything significant. Could be a likely ruse and Ukraine seems to be cautious in that also. Possibly might be to say, 'hey we were starting to move our army away after training then Ukraine chose to attack part of our army in a (false flag) unprovoked attack' and hence their excuse to attack Ukraine.

Another news paper article on the same:

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/ukraine-russia-war-invasion-live-26225775

Looks like US Intelligence is pegging the Russian Invasion of Ukraine to start at 3AM tomorrow morning!!!

Makes sense to do it in the early hours. The ground is probably frozen now so could all fit. Possibly now that time is out they may not but certainly the coming days look ominous for Ukraine.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: John Gaunt on February 15, 2022, 05:25:34 AM
If true it could just be a ruse though not sure how that would help. Just have to wait and see on that one I guess. This news report out today is an interesting one:

http://news.sky.com/story/russia-ukraine-crisis-protect-your-homeland-ukrainian-president-urges-politicians-who-have-fled-the-country-to-return-12542333

Apparently many business leaders, politicians, etc have cowardly fled Ukraine in fear of their lives and taking their money with them lol. They're not taking any chances and are putting their own lives and wealth first and let the rest of Ukrainians face any threat. Gaunty the President of Ukraine is asking for you to return! :D
WTF are you prattling on about now.
Your posts get more delusional by the day.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Chelseaboy on February 15, 2022, 05:27:46 AM
NATO Secretary General saying they see no signs of any de-escalation of Russian forces  on the ground on the Ukrainian border...despite what the Russian Defence Ministry  said earlier today.


Boris Johnson just said intelligence is telling him that Russia is now erecting large field hospitals in Belarus on the Ukrainian border.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Chelseaboy on February 15, 2022, 08:27:23 AM
Here we go...Putin has put up his pretext today for invading Ukraine,exactly as the west had warned..he claims Ukraine is committing mass human rights violations,including genocide in Donbas.


All sounds very much like Hitlers excuse for invading Czechoslovakia and we all know what happened after that.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: fathertime on February 15, 2022, 08:29:47 AM

Looks like US Intelligence is pegging the Russian Invasion of Ukraine to start at 3AM tomorrow morning!!!

Makes sense to do it in the early hours. The ground is probably frozen now so could all fit. Possibly now that time is out they may not but certainly the coming days look ominous for Ukraine.
Ok, so now the invasion is happening at 3am tomorrow.   I don't think so.  All downside for Russia to invade.  The US is probably trying to make Putin look weak by pretending they have stared him down.   I still think most of the world can see through the spin.   I guess we will know by 3am tomorrow!

Fathertime! 
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: GQBlues on February 15, 2022, 09:15:08 AM
LMAO!


Quote from: Zelensky
NATO is just a distant dream for Ukraine


Western phucking propaganda had brainwashed the vast majority of its population/s. With reports now revealing that Russia had began to move some of its equipment and troops away from the border.


The US immediately checked Kamala Harris' schedule to get an update on her main duty as White House email checker to see if any new emails came in this morning in her computer, and despite the State Department disliking the idea of pulling her away from what she does best as the United States Vice-President, they also recognize no one else in the white house can do a better job than Ms. Harris and decided to send her to the next best thing she does as vice-president, US Border Monitor. The US is dispatching her immediately to make sure Russia continues to demobilize its military along the border. Ms. Harris immediately grabbed an Arizona and Texas map to make sure she doesn't get lost.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Boethius on February 15, 2022, 10:46:21 AM
Did "Western propaganda" amass more than 130,000 troops along Ukraine's border?
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: GQBlues on February 15, 2022, 10:56:02 AM
Did "Western propaganda" amass more than 130,000 troops along Ukraine's border?


The imminent Russian invasion was. Hyperventilated and scared the bejesus out of everyone except the Ukrainians and Russians.

 >:D


Fear no more...Kamala Harris is on her way to the eastern border. Last seen closing in on El Paso....
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Jumper1 on February 15, 2022, 01:06:37 PM
Russia says they are pulling back troops from the border.

The games people play...
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Trenchcoat on February 15, 2022, 05:18:12 PM
Russia says they are pulling back troops from the border.

The games people play...

US Intelligence has since said that they haven't seen any obvious sign of troop withdrawal.

Putin has said to the German Chancellor that he does not wish for war.

What actually happens who knows.

A night time attack at 3am would probably be the best time. Russian forces could be closing in on Kyiv just as Ukrainians are waking up in the morning. I don't reckon it will be tonight though now that time has been spread about.

I think Putin may just be manoeuvring himself now to find a reason to attack. Just after saying he doesn't wish for war may not be the best time as so soon could look very shallow. My guess is if he wants to invade he'll give a good day or two and then make a move. Quite what the excuse will be who knows, possibly as CB suggests to stop the supposed 'genocide' in Eastern Ukraine. Would probably sound better and more justified than any false flag carry on.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Grumpy on February 15, 2022, 07:06:13 PM
U.S. recommends leaving Belarus  in addition to Ukraine.  Is Moldova the only "safe " fsu destination?   
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Davo on February 15, 2022, 10:59:43 PM
A transcript from the first page of our Russian embassy website..... It’s a long read.

Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov’s interview with Sputnik, Echo of Moscow, Govorit Moskva and Komsomolskaya Pravda radio stations, Moscow, January 28, 2022

Question: Will there be a war? We sent them our proposals, we waited for their response, and we got their response. Their answer did not suit us, which was to be expected. Before that, we said and made clear through different representatives that if their response does not suit us, we reserve the right to respond and protect our interests forcefully. Can you explain what that means and what are we going to do? We aren’t going to make McDonald’s illegal after all, are we? If I may quote my subscribers, they frame this question as follows: “When are we going to hit Washington?”, “Will there be a war?”, “How long are we going to procrastinate?”, “Will there be a war?”

Sergey Lavrov: If it depends on the Russian Federation, there will be no war. We don’t want wars, but we won’t allow anyone to trample on our interests or ignore them, either. I cannot say that the talks are over. As you are aware, it took the Americans and their NATO allies more than a month to study our extremely straightforward proposals that are part of the draft treaty with Washington and the agreement with NATO. We received their response only the day before yesterday. It is written in that typically Western style. In many ways, they are confusing the issue, but also providing kernels of rationality on secondary issues such as intermediate- and shorter-range missiles which were quite important for us at some point. When the Americans destroyed the INF Treaty, we urged them to listen to reason. President Vladimir Putin sent a message to all OSCE members suggesting that they join our unilateral moratorium when agreeing on verification measures. It was ignored. Now, it has become part of their proposals. Similarly, our initiatives that were introduced by the General Staff of the Russian Federation to conduct military exercises further away from the borders on both sides, to agree on a critical safe distance between approaching combat aircraft and ships, as well as a number of other confidence-building, deconflicting and de-escalation measures, were ignored. All of that has been rejected during the past two to three years. Now, they propose discussing this. That is, the constructive approach in these proposals has, in fact, been borrowed from Russia’s recent initiatives. I think that now, as we say in Russia, “we are getting somewhere.” To reiterate, most importantly, we should figure out the conceptual pillars that underlie European security.
In 2010 in Astana, and before that in 1999 in Istanbul, all presidents and prime ministers from the OSCE countries signed a package that contained interrelated principles to ensure the indivisibility of security. The West “ripped out” just one slogan from this package: each country has the right to choose its allies and military alliances. But in that package this right comes with a condition and an obligation on each country, to which the Westerners subscribed: not to strengthen their security at the expense of the security of others. With its mantra that the NATO open door policy is sacred and no one can say “no” to Ukraine joining the Alliance and that it’s up to Ukraine to decide, the West is, deliberately and openly, refusing even to acknowledge the second part of the commitments. Moreover, when Josep Borrell, Antony Blinken and many other colleagues of ours talk about the importance of sticking to agreed-upon principles in the context of the Euro-Atlantic security architecture, none of them ever mentions the Istanbul Declaration or the Astana Declaration. They mention the Helsinki Final Act and the 1990 Charter of Paris for a New Europe, in which there is no obligation not to strengthen one’s own security at the expense of others. Russia insisted on including this commitment in subsequent OSCE documents.
Today, as I made clear earlier, I am sending official requests to all my colleagues asking them directly to clarify how they are going to fulfill, in the current historical circumstances, the obligations that their countries have signed onto at the highest level. These are the matters of principle. Before we proceed to discussing individual practical aspects of European security, we want to see the West wriggle out of it this time.
I hope they will give an honest answer about what they have in mind when they implement these agreements in an exclusively unilateral manner that benefits them – again, completely ignoring that fact that the right to join alliances directly hinges on recognising that it is unacceptable to strengthen the security of some states at the expense of the security of others. Let’s see how they respond.

Question: If they give us the answer many experts are discussing, it will most certainly not suit us. Can it lead to a breakdown in relations? Everything we have been hearing recently from the Americans, and they are going to introduce sanctions against the leadership of our entire country, even against you…

Sergey Lavrov: What do you mean “even”? Are you saying I am not worthy of them?

Question: It has never happened in history. There has never been talk of sanctions against the Foreign Minister and the President. This is beyond the pale. Look at what is happening with our diplomats against this backdrop. Yesterday our Ambassador to the United States said that ultimately this might lead to something close to severing relations. As Anatoly Antonov said, our diplomats are simply being expelled although this is presented in a somewhat different way. What should we do? How will it look?

Sergey Lavrov: This is a multilayered question. I will start with the main point: What will we do if the West does not listen to reason? The President of Russia has already said what. If our attempts to come to terms on mutually acceptable principles of ensuring security in Europe fail to produce the desired result, we will take response measures. Asked directly what these measures might be, he said: they could come in all shapes and sizes. He will make decisions based on the proposals submitted by our military. Naturally, other departments will also take part in drafting these proposals.
Now the interdepartmental analysis of the responses received from the US and NATO is underway. Practically everyone knows what these responses are. I have made some remarks. I will note in passing that the American response is all but a model of diplomatic manners compared to NATO’s document. NATO sent us such an ideologically motivated answer, it is so permeated with its exceptional role and special mission that I even felt a bit embarrassed for whoever wrote these texts.
Our reply will be prepared. The proposals contained in our reply will be reported to the President of Russia and he will make a decision. We are developing our line at this point, including the steps that I mentioned.
As for the threats of imposing sanctions, the Americans were told, including during the presidential meeting, that the package you have just mentioned, the one that includes completely cutting off Russia from the West-controlled financial and economic systems, will be equivalent to severing relations. This was said directly. I believe they understand this. I don’t think this is in anyone’s interests.
Now a few words about their treatment of our diplomats. When I was in Washington several years ago, or, to be more precise, in December 2019, a deputy US Secretary of State under Michael Pompeo told my deputy in passing, before saying goodbye, that they were thinking of ways to streamline the functioning of our diplomatic missions on a reciprocal basis. He said American diplomats work abroad for three years. Then they are replaced, sent to a different country or returned to the central office in Washington. So they decided that our diplomats should also observe this term of three years and that’s it. We asked why we were told this on the sly and whether we were the only ones to hear it. We asked whether they had similar thoughts as regards other states, the answer was “no.”  No other country was supposed to be subjected to this experiment, just the Russian Federation. This is when we started yet another round of our diplomatic tit-for-tat. We said okay, you have a practice of sending diplomats to serve abroad for three years, and we have a practice of not hiring local personnel to work in our embassies. The Americans hired over 400 people (nationals of Russia and other countries, mostly CIS).
You probably followed this discussion. They started moaning and groaning “How come? Are you ‘unplugging’ us?” You wanted to be guided by the principle that you can do everything and impose on us what you think is right. We will do the same. This is yet another escalation of the crisis that was triggered by Barack Obama who revealed his genuine character. Three weeks before his departure from the White House, he decided to bind Donald Trump’s hands before slamming the door on the way out. He deprived us of five diplomatic properties and expelled dozens of diplomats who had to pack up all their staff with their families in three days. This was the beginning of it all.
We spoke about this again with Antony Blinken in Geneva, completing our conversation on European security. It is necessary to get back to normal in some way. We suggested starting from scratch and resetting everything to zero, beginning with this disgraceful, piddling move by Nobel Prize winner Barack Obama and everything that followed after it. Let’s wait and see. Another meeting is supposed to take place in the next couple of weeks. The Americans are now in a bargaining mood. They are telling us that they need 12 people serving the ambassador alone.  They argue that we must therefore exempt them from the quota that we establish on a reciprocal basis. We have explained to them that the agreed-upon quota is 455 people, both for them and for us. On our part, this is a gesture of enormous goodwill. The figure of 455 includes not only the employees of the bilateral diplomatic missions: the Embassy and two general consulates but also 150 people who work at our mission at the UN, which has nothing to do with our bilateral ties or any sense of balance. This was a goodwill gesture. However, we warned them that if they continue their obnoxious behaviour (I don’t know how else to describe their statements that if we don’t accept the guards for their ambassador immediately, they will ask Mr Antonov to leave the US), we still have the option of truly equalising our diplomatic presence.

Question: You know perfectly well that my questions are largely based on our radio listeners’ questions. Since we are talking about Russia-US relations, our listener Michael McFaul of California, a Stanford University professor, has sent a question for you. Why didn’t Russia try at least to get UN Security Council authorisation for the use of force if needed in Ukraine? Doesn’t Russia believe in the UN Security Council any longer? Why hasn’t Russia recognised the self-proclaimed Donetsk and Lugansk republics if they are facing the same risk as South Ossetia and Abkhazia in 2008?

Sergey Lavrov: To be honest, the questions are absolutely ignorant. Take the question about the UN Security Council. Did I get it right?  Why didn’t (past tense) Russia go to the UN Security Council for authorisation to use force if necessary? I will not even try to explain the futility of the phrase. The word “if” does not belong in the diplomatic practice in any country.
Regarding recognition, I think Mr McFaul, who had made a tremendous contribution to destroying anything constructive in Russian-American relations, just did not have time to read the Minsk agreements approved in February 2015. They are about preserving the unity and territorial integrity of Ukraine. The Donetsk and Lugansk People’s Republics had already declared independence several months prior to the Minsk meeting. Germany and France, who endorsed the text of the Minsk agreements with us and the Ukrainians, begged us, with Pyotr Poroshenko joining those requests, to persuade the leaders of the two republics to sign the Minsk agreements thus, in essence, changing the results of the spring 2014 referendum in Donbass. Mr McFaul should probably learn the contemporary history of the region. The issue of recognition must be considered in the context of our firm line to get the West to compel Kiev to abide by the Minsk agreements. Then everything will be all right, just as envisaged by this document endorsed by the UN Security Council.

Question: I think that the document we delivered to the United States surprised many of those who read it. It left many, myself included, feeling that Russia won in some kind of a war, while America lost. What I mean is the radical proposals contained in it like returning to NATO’s 1997 borders, etc. My question is, what was all that? It is obvious that the arguments must be really strong for the Americans to return to the 1997 terms or withdraw from countries where they feel so good, confident and comfortable? By all means, you clearly had something in mind. What was that, and what kind of a response did you expect to this letter? After all, the withdrawal must be swift. They were required to respond quickly.
We did our math. You are now working with your fourth US administration, since you became Foreign Minister during George W. Bush’s presidency. Are there any major differences between these teams? Can specific individuals actually make a difference in history as we were once taught, or not? Which of your counterparts did you work better with, and how are you getting along with the current “guys” compared to the previous administrations?

Sergey Lavrov: The proposals we delivered to the United States and NATO on December 15, 2021, may seem excessive only if the expert assessing them proceeds from the premise that “the Americans have already taken away everything there was all around you, so it is too late to make a fuss about it. Just accept it and try to keep the bare minimum they left you.”
What we want is fair treatment. I cited the commitments we all accepted at the highest level within the OSCE. Let me emphasise that presidents, including the US President, signed under these commitments promising that no one would seek to bolster one’s security at someone else’s expense. The United States claims that the right to choose alliances is sacrosanct. But we say, provided it doesn’t worsen the security situation for any other country. This is what you signed, my dear sirs.
They are now trying to present our proposals as an ultimatum, but we are there to refresh their memories and make sure that instead of equivocating they set forth in all honesty their interpretation of what their president signed up for. If he signed these documents while being confident that Russia would never be able to get what they promised, they must acknowledge that. This will be yet another confession on their part. We already reminded them about the promises they made verbally in the 1990s not to expand NATO, but in response they claimed that we got them wrong, that they did not want to mislead us and had little time to think because there were more urgent issues to deal with at the time. This is how they explained it, literally.
We are on our own territory. Michael McFaul has referred to the UN Security Council where the United States intends to discuss what we are doing regarding Ukraine and why we are not working to de-escalate the situation. This is what we hear from a person representing a country with military bases spread around the world, encircling the Russian Federation and the CIS, a country doing who knows what in Iraq (who invited them there?) and so forth. If the Americans want to discuss troop deployments, there are things to talk about. Everywhere we deploy our military forces, we do so based on a request from the host country. We fulfil the agreements we reach with host countries strictly in keeping with international law. Both Josep Borrell and Antony Blinken have been whipping up hysteria on the topic of escalation in Ukraine, demanding that we de-escalate, which has become a mantra of sorts for them, saying that they do hope that Russia chooses the “path of diplomacy.” I take them at their word. For many years after the end of the Soviet Union, we opted for the path of diplomacy. The Istanbul and Astana arrangements I had mentioned are the major outcomes of these diplomatic efforts: everyone undertook not to reinforce one’s security at the expense of others. After all, this was a commitment, a declaration, the supreme act of diplomacy. Use any word you like: compromise, consensus, agreement – anything. If diplomacy is what you stand for, start by delivering on what we already agreed upon.
It is not my intention to discuss our partners on a personal level, though there is much that could be said. Our motto is that we have to work with everyone, and work we do. I can say that I had smooth relationships with all my colleagues. We could always speak candidly with each other at all times even on increasingly divisive matters and on the differences our countries have in their relations with one another.

Question: You are a diplomat. You will never put it the way I’m going to put it right now. But I am a journalist and I can afford to.

Sergey Lavrov: I have said a few undiplomatic things before.

Question: True. But you didn’t say those things into a microphone during an interview. It’s just that we keep an eye on you and print your brilliant sayings on T-shirts.
We recently saved Kazakhstan. We may have to salvage things between Tajikistan and Kyrgyzstan. We have also preserved the peace in Karabakh and, generally speaking, in Armenia, too. We are endlessly saving our “exes.” What do we get in return?
Reporters from Komsomolskaya Pravda – colleagues of editor-in-chief Vladimir Sungorkin who is joining us from their studio – have unearthed a great story. They have investigated school textbooks used in former Soviet republics, including those we continue saving, to find out what they say about Russia, about the Soviet Union and about the Russian Empire. Quite a fascinating story. If you haven't read it, you’ll be amazed. Kassym-Jomart Tokayev reports to our President that Russian is widespread in Kazakh schools, and not only in schools. According to our information, this is not entirely true, or rather it is not at all true. Regarding Russians living in those countries, we have many, many harassment complaints. I'm not talking specifically about Kazakhstan, but about the former Soviet republics in general. We have heard many times that the Foreign Ministry is opposed to simplifying the procedure for obtaining Russian citizenship by Russians living in those countries. I know for sure that it is not. I discussed this with you, and I know your position. Moreover, you have recently played an active role in simplifying current laws. Can you tell us how long we will tolerate this kind of attitude towards our people? When will we start returning our people – the way the Greeks, Germans, Jews and many others are taking people back based on their ethnic identity? How will we defend the rights of our people who have found themselves stranded there after their country’s collapse, which was not something they wanted?

Sergey Lavrov: This is several questions in one. As for relations with our neighbours, CSTO allies, CIS partners – we have a problem. Nobody is hiding this. It largely stems from the fact that the newly independent states, which left the Soviet Union and which had been part of the Russian Empire before that, have been given the first chance in a long historical period, the first opportunity to build their own national (the key word) states. They sometimes overdo it because they want to assert their national identity as soon as possible. Nobody would deny this. This always happens when great empires fall apart.
The Soviet Union was heir to the Russian Empire. In fact, it was an imperial entity, although softer and more humane than the British, French or other empires.
Some of the imbalances you are talking about would be inevitable in the current historical period. We certainly wish to avoid them and curtail them. This must be done by all means, including so-called soft power, and we need to allocate significantly more resources for it than now. Our ministry is active in lobbying for appropriate Government decisions and streamlining the state's activities on this track. But we are still far below the level that Western countries have reached in this respect. In addition to soft power, apart from diplomacy, bringing these problems up during meetings with our allies and partners – there is also reciprocity, which refers to considering our partners’ approaches to matters that are relevant to us when making decisions that affect them. This concerns labour migrants, economic assistance, and much more. Our economic systems are interconnected. The Eurasian Economic Union creates conditions, but it is up to the Russian Federation to make most of them a reality, and much more.
I do not see why this should rule out the development of friendly, allied, and very close – including personal – relationships with the elites of our neighbours. This whole situation is the result of a geopolitical catastrophe, the collapse of the Soviet Union. As Russian President Vladimir Putin said, 25 million people (maybe more) then found themselves abroad, outside their country overnight. We had no borders and no idea how to build ties. It took a titanic effort. Now the situation is more or less back to normal; it is clear who should be responsible for what. This is already a great achievement. But the problems you mentioned – our compatriots’ situation – should be addressed on a mutual basis.
I'll make a couple of points now. The first point is we should be more active and open in discussing human rights within the CIS, including the rights of non-titular ethnic groups – Russians in Kazakhstan, Kazakhs in Russia, Azerbaijanis in Armenia and vice versa (although there are very few of them left there). We have reached the following agreement with our CIS partners. Back when the Commonwealth was being created, its Charter included a provision on the CIS Commission on Human Rights as one of its bodies. However, we never got around to actually setting it up. At first, the idea was simple – the West should see that we also address human rights. But over the past few years, we have proposed materialising this statutory provision. There is a general agreement to launch the commission and an understanding that we will primarily deal with human rights issues in the CIS. It should be up to us, to all CIS countries, to make judgments about the human rights situation in our countries, not to Western agencies or bodies like the European Court of Human Rights, which has long lost the ability to rely on the principles of justice and which increasingly politicises its decisions every year.
Last year, the number of regional programmes exceeded 80, that is, apart from the federal programme, including in the regions of the Far East and Trans-Baikal Territory which we see as priority areas for those willing to move to the Russian Federation. I listed the major benefits that have been approved. I will say straight away that we wanted more. I believe that one’s family, parents and relatives having roots not only in the Russian Soviet Federative Socialist Republic but also in other republics of the Soviet Union must have relevance for being entitled to preferential access to citizenship.
We have to consider a number of issues that we would like to settle as soon as possible. The work has not been finished yet. We have now “capitalised” what we have agreed on at the current stage. The President approved the consensus that was reached. We will continue to work to further improve the process and ease conditions for acquiring citizenship. The more so that at President Putin’s direction, the United Russia party, our leading political force, formed a commission on international cooperation and assistance to compatriots abroad. It involves not only helping compatriots come to Russia but also in the sense in which we discussed your first question - so as to make them feel as comfortable as possible upon arrival.
A couple of days ago the Komsomolskaya Pravda newspaper ran an article about history textbooks published currently in the former Soviet republics. I will not comment on what Estonians, Ukrainians, Lithuanians and Latvians are writing in them. However, regarding the CIS countries, we have repeatedly told them that nationalists should not be given pretexts by exploiting difficult moments in our common history. It ultimately helped all the peoples inhabiting this huge geopolitical space to lay the foundation for building their statehood. While we acknowledge the newly independent states’ aspiration to self-determination which I mentioned, overheated assessments should be avoided as they obviously, and maybe intentionally, play into the hands of extremists and nationalists.
Last year, a decision was signed within the Commonwealth of Independent States on establishing an international association (commission) of historians and archivists from CIS member states. It will focus, among other things, on discussing the issues of our common history with an eye toward a constructive consideration of all matters. I don’t think there will be unified history textbooks, but guidelines will be produced to reflect a consolidated point of view and a variety of perspectives. We have a commission of historians with Germany, Poland and Lithuania. They release joint documents. I believe that a similar mechanism within the Commonwealth will operate much more constructively in view of our closeness in many organisations – CSTO, EAEU, CIS and SCO.

Question: To follow up on our relations with the United States, you just said that we will continue to work with them. A meeting with Antony Blinken will take place soon. However, now that we have their answer, many analysts, in fact, almost all of them, are saying that the United States and the Alliance members are unlikely to change their position on the main issues. They are saying that “the ball is in Russia’s court now, and we are ready for any scenario.” You are saying our President said that we would respond, and that the response is in the works. The Foreign Ministry is involved in this. Can we have a sneak peek at the direction in which our Foreign Ministry is going to move in order to shoot the “ball” back at them? Is it Latin America? Cuba, Venezuela, Nicaragua? Could it be Europe? Serbia? Maybe we can do something with Iran? Can you give us a hint about what our response should be like for these guys to sit down, use their heads and try to give us different answers to our main questions, rather than secondary ones?

Sergey Lavrov: If they insist on not changing their position, we will not change ours, either. It's just that their position is based on false premises and a flat-out misrepresentation of the facts. Our position is based on things that everyone has signed onto. I don't see any room for a compromise here. Otherwise, what are we supposed to talk about if they openly sabotage and misrepresent previous decisions? This will be a key test for us.
As for the “ball,” we are playing different games. They may be playing baseball, while we may be playing tipcat. What matters is not to try to shirk responsibility, which is exactly what our American and other NATO partners are doing now.
They will not succeed in dodging the question of why they are not complying with what their presidents have signed onto, namely, that it is unacceptable to strengthen one’s security at the expense of the security of others.
Regarding our relations with Latin America, Serbia, Iran, China and many other states that act decently in the international arena, are not trying to unilaterally impose anything on anyone and are always willing to seek mutually acceptable solutions to any issues. Our relations are not subject to the vagaries of life. They are quite comprehensive and cover economic, cultural, educational, and sports contacts. They also include military and defence cooperation in full compliance with international law. I assure you that no matter how developments unfold with regard to European security, we will continue to consistently expand these relations.
I would like to underscore that we are studying their response and we have already provided our initial assessments. It is not satisfactory with regard to the main issue: the West fails to honour its obligations in terms of indivisibility of security and ignores our interests, although we laid them out in an extremely straightforward and clear way
With regard to issues of secondary importance, they were shocked by us presenting these documents publicly. This helped change their negative attitude towards our previous proposals, including medium- and short- range missiles and working out de-escalation measures during the exercises. This means that the West understands only this kind of language, and we should continue in the same vein that we did when we put forward our initiatives. We are now focused on getting explanations. We cannot accept evasive answers when it comes to the indivisibility of security. The West is shirking its commitments just as it failed to deliver on its commitment not to expand NATO. But then (as it is now telling us) it was a verbal commitment. Now, written commitments are available. Respond to us in writing to our written demands. Explain how you fulfill the written commitments signed by your presidents.

Question: When it is necessary to come to the defence of Russian journalists that are subjected to certain restrictions in the US or Germany, and we know the story with RT, the Foreign Ministry is forcefully intervening and defending them both on and off the record, and not only Maria Zakharova but also at the level of ambassador, deputy minister and at your level. When it comes to the countries with which we have closer relations, your department is quite modest. It is enough to recall the case of the Komsomolskaya Pravda journalists and the end of their news office that is practically closed. Its chief is behind bars.
I would like to remind you of the murders of journalists. When our journalists were killed in Ukraine, the Foreign Ministry took a very tough, assertive position that was hard to ignore, but it was silent when our journalists were murdered in the Central African Republic (CAR). 
Here’s a question from our listener Dmitry Muratov from Moscow, a Nobel Prize winner and editor-in-chief of Novaya Gazeta. Without any additional investigation or operational measures, the new ambassador of Russia to the CAR named the murderers of the Russian journalists – the 3R group. The Foreign Ministry is aware of this but their families are not. The clothes of the journalists were burned as evidence, no investigation was conducted and the Foreign Ministry does not make any statements as regards the CAR leaders. Maybe, the Foreign Ministry should become more active in these cases with respect to both the Belarusian government and the CAR leaders?

Sergey Lavrov: You are right in saying that we must always defend the rights of Russian citizens, and not only journalists but every citizen, and the Americans have simply abducted dozens of them. We must also protect our journalists when there are obvious reasons for doing so. 
We expressed our concern over what was happening with the Komsomolskaya Pravda news office. We talked with Mr Sungorkin about this. As I understand, the matter concerns Belarusian citizens and a specific Belarusian citizen. This is a somewhat different story. Any country that allows dual citizenship follows its own laws if something happens on its territory. I don’t want to go into details but there are issues that require silence. We did quite a bit to persuade the Belarusian authorities to be understanding. Now their position is what it is, and I cannot argue against it. They are ready to open any news office but its employees have to be citizens of the Russian Federation.
We could also look at how Russian journalists are treated in the West and how their working conditions are dictated there. I think a request to employ Russian citizens in Russian media is not beyond the pale. We believe the rights of journalists must be respected without exception everywhere, including Belarus or any other CIS country. If these rights are openly violated, we will continue to raise questions about this.
As for the CAR, we are willing to convey any information we have to the families of the dead journalists. As for the culprits, as you know, the CAR authorities are conducting an investigation. I don’t want to excuse the acts of these murderers. I can only say that journalists should take precautions. If they had at least notified the Foreign Ministry and our Embassy that they were bound for a country with a domestic armed conflict and a terrorist threat, the chances of avoiding this tragedy would have been a bit higher. This was all the more important since they went there as tourists, without declaring the purpose of their visit. Let me repeat again that this is not an excuse but this creates additional security risks in such cases.
Therefore, I’d like everyone to know that we do want journalists to work all over the world, including hot spots. I remove my hat and bow to all those who do such reporting in flak jackets and helmets, and let me say something, in passing, to your colleagues in eastern Ukraine. Once again I am addressing, through you, those who may have some influence on Western journalism and the media. Why do journalists appear sporadically, once every six months, at best, on the Kiev-controlled side of the contact line in Donbass? Why is their reporting so spotty? It would be very interesting to see them there. On the other side of the contact line, our journalists show the results of the atrocities committed by the Armed Forces of Ukraine that are bombing kindergartens, outpatient clinics and residential areas and killing people. According to the OSCE, civilian casualties on the side controlled by Donbass defenders are five times higher than on the opposite side. This speaks for itself.
Let’s return to the Central African Republic. We again sent an inquiry to the CAR government when the information about this 3R group emerged. We will do all we can to bring this investigation to completion. As you know, their government is dealing with this. Let me emphasise once again that we want to know the truth. I would like to impress upon our journalist colleagues and friends the importance of notifying us about trips to hot spots (if you don’t trust the Ministry, I cannot force you to do this). Please do it for the sake of your own safety. It will help.

Question: Thank you very much for your support to our service in connection with what happened to Gennady Mozheiko. Our thanks go to Alexei Venediktov for bringing up this issue. Gennady Mozheiko has been in police custody for four months now and not even once has he been questioned. He’s just sitting there. I appealed to Belarusian President Alexander Lukashenko [for assistance] but, so far, there has been no response.
You were right in saying that it is not only a matter of journalists. Today, according to the Russian Embassy in Belarus, 457 Russian nationals are behind bars in Belarus. This is only what the embassy says, and I suspect the real figure is even bigger. Yesterday, another person – Russian national Vera Tsvikevich – was added to this list. She was detained only for taking, during the protests, a photograph of herself, a selfie, in a beautiful red dress with a patrol in the background. She was taken to prison for that. Judging by the precedents, she will be sentenced to two years in prison. Something needs to be done about this.
As for Belarus, we should have a very different relationship with them, as this is the Union State. Today, our journalists believe their work to be the most difficult in Belarus and not in Georgia or America, or Israel, and so on. We are constantly talking about the Union State, saying that we need to synchronise our legislation. What is in store for us, with regard to what I just said? Do we stand any chance of becoming a true Union State?

Sergey Lavrov: As for the Union State, you know, there are 28 union programmes that were approved last autumn...

Question: They have not been published, which is an interesting fact.

Sergey Lavrov: These are framework documents. They contain no secrets. They provide for work that has already started to flesh out each of the 28 programmes with specific and direct legal decisions in the economy, financial activities, transport, communications and so on. It is an important step towards consolidating economic assets. According to the two presidents, this work has to be completed in the next two to three years. This means embarking on the path to the Union State with much broader powers.
Yesterday, we saw off the newly-appointed Ambassador, Boris Gryzlov who was leaving for Belarus. I handed him letters of credence signed by the Russian President. This ceremony was attended by Belarusian Ambassador to Russia Vladimir Semashko. I recalled that our joint work also includes efforts to align the rights of the people of the two countries. Much has already been done. I believe 95 percent of rights have been aligned; however, the remaining outstanding issues in some areas need to be addressed as soon as possible. In particular, this includes the terms on which healthcare services or hotel accommodation are to be provided to people travelling privately. This is all very important for the daily life of people. 
But the question you asked is not about what the Union State will look like in the end. Even if the criminal legislation of the two countries has been unified in full, there will still be Russians detained in Belarus and Belarusians detained in Russia. Our embassy keeps a close eye on the course of legal proceedings involving detained Russian nationals. The law enforcement agencies and prosecutor general’s offices of the two countries stay in contact. I haven’t heard anything about Vera Tsvikevich. Is this today’s newspaper?

Remark: No. It was issued in 2020.
Sergey Lavrov: Why then did you say that she was added to this list yesterday?

Remark: She was detained yesterday. The newspaper is old but she was detained yesterday.

Sergey Lavrov: Is she on the staff of Komsomolskaya Pravda?

Remark: No, she is just a Russian national. I said that about 500 Russian nationals were serving sentence in Belarus.

Sergey Lavrov: Four hundred fifty-seven. So, she will be the 458th . We will be watching what happens to her, the way we do it in any other country. There are questions that require close cooperation between the law enforcement agencies. I would rather not talk about them now in public but such questions do exist. It is important that they are resolved in a manner characteristic of two allies or brotherly nations. We will invariably adhere to this line.

Question: Mine is not a question but an urgent request concerning the fate of the German RT channel. We have not faced such unprecedented and uncompromising pressure, actually not even pressure but a real ban on work, in any other country, not the US or the UK, as in the Federal Republic of Germany. It is all disguised with hypocritical statements by German leaders at different levels. Supposedly, they have nothing to do with the closure of the German YouTube channel. Even when we gained the largest audience in the history of the English-language YouTube among the world’s TV channels, we were not shut down. They didn’t dare. But the Germans did.  They pressured Luxembourg so as to have our licence denied even though practically everything had been agreed and done there. Ultimately, we were given the licence in Serbia. They pressured the European regulators – so we can’t broadcast with that licence either. Titanic efforts of hundreds of people who had been building the channel amid the pandemic, produced shows, won the audience – all that was in vain. The audience was sacrificed to interests. Nobody shows the German people what we show.
The only thing that can affect them (as was the case with the UK) is reciprocity, which you are more familiar with than we are. Deutsche Welle has not even been designated as a foreign agent, even though this status does not entail what it does in the US (criminal charges). In our country it is just a piece of paper and an occasion to shout about it. In fact, it does not entail anything. Foreign agents take interviews, they are invited to Russian President Vladimir Putin’s press conferences. To say nothing about shutting down Deutsche Welle here the way they shut us down in Germany. This also concerns other German media outlets. Please, help us.

Sergey Lavrov: You don’t need to persuade me. Just yesterday the Russian Embassy in Berlin demanded an explanation. Procedures are underway. This is not within the competence of the federal agency but of the regulator of the German states Berlin and Brandenburg. The embassy’s lawyers looked into precedents. The Axel Springer concern had faced a similar situation but they quickly got a licence.
The key here is that the Germans are trying to place their internal regulations, which allegedly prohibit the registration of state-run channels, above their commitments under the European Convention on Transfrontier Television. According to our information, their regulators are using various pretexts to justify the primacy of their national law. This won’t do. The result will be the same as the NATO enlargement – this is what they want so they won’t do the things they had promised somewhere else. The Germans know that reciprocal measures will follow. I raised this issue when German Foreign Minister Annalena Baerbock was here on a visit. I think she and her delegation heard it. I am going to have a telephone conversation with her today. I will definitely remind her.

Question: A scandal is unfolding in the United States. CNN published a report citing its own sources. In it, they alleged that the United States and Ukrainian presidents talked on the phone, with Joe Biden supposedly yelling at Vladimir Zelensky in an attempt to explain to him in a raised voice that unless he changes his position on Donbass, Kiev will fall and be pillaged, etc. CNN published this report on its website, but later removed it. Still, the scandal lives on. Both Joe Biden and Vladimir Zelensky are getting questions about this. In this telephone conversation, the President of the United States allegedly requested that the President of Ukraine urgently resolve the special status issue for Donbass.
If Kiev does decide to amend its constitution and grant Donbass a special status, will this affect Russia’s policy on Ukraine in any way? To be honest, you cannot trust these people. There are 720,000 Russian nationals there today, and in the future there could be even more of them. We do understand the threats they may face after obtaining a Russian passport. Are we ready for these eventualities? What will be Russia’s policy on the people’s republics?

Sergey Lavrov: We have always stressed the need to fully implement the Minsk agreements in good faith and following the sequence it sets forth. As my colleagues and I have been saying in our public statements, during the Geneva summit meeting in June 2021 between the Russian and United States presidents, Joe Biden said at his own initiative that he wanted to facilitate the implementation of the Minsk agreements, including in terms of granting an autonomous (this was the word he used) status to Donbass. He understands everything.
This is consistent with what the Minsk agreements say. The special status provisions they set forth cannot be subject to any equivocal interpretations. What needs to be done is clear. US Secretary of State Antony Blinken reassured me that they want to help implement the Minsk agreements. His under-secretaries said that the US would not join the Normandy format but still wants to help. If they do force Kiev (nobody else can do it), this outcome would suit us. So far, I find this hard to believe. They are playing a game by continuing to supply weapons. Some tend to interpret these deliveries as a support for those ready to engage in a senseless armed conflict. This is something many have to factor into their projections. In fact, hardly anyone wants this, but there is still a small group of people who stand to benefit from it, in one way or another.
Why are the Americans the only ones that can force Kiev into compliance? The Normandy format met in Paris at the level of political advisors to the four leaders. Deputy Chief of Staff of the Presidential Executive Office Dmitry Kozak travelled there. They agreed to take two more weeks to understand how they can move forward in carrying out the Minsk agreements.
France, Germany and the European Union name Russia as a party to the conflict. What kind of agreement can we reach in these circumstances? They are saying we must comply with the Minsk agreements. President Vladimir Putin and Dmitry Kozak have repeatedly stated that no one has ever given us an answer to the question of which specific provision we must comply with. The implication is that everything depends on Russia. It's like we snap our fingers and everything will come to pass.
Kiev realised that Berlin and Paris would not insist on it complying with the Minsk agreements. President Zelensky said he didn’t like the Package of Measures, but it was nonetheless important, because it keeps Western sanctions on Russia in place. That’s all there is to it: nothing but crude cynicism. Ukraine realises that it can do anything now. Vladimir Zelensky and his regime are being used (primarily by the Americans) to escalate tensions and to engage their underlings in Europe, who are playing along with the Americans as they pursue their Russophobic undertakings. The future of Ukraine is not Washington’s main goal in this particular case. It is important for the United States to escalate tensions around the Russian Federation in order to “close” this issue and then “deal with” China, as US political scientists are saying. How do they plan to “close” it? I have no idea. If there are any reasonable political strategists still out there, they must realise that this road leads nowhere.
The Americans are using Ukraine against Russia so openly and cynically that the Kiev regime itself is now scared. They are now saying there is no need to aggravate the discussion and are suggesting that the Americans keep down the rhetoric, and are also wondering why evacuate diplomats. Who is evacuating diplomats? The Americans and other Anglo-Saxons (Canada and the UK), meaning they know something others don’t. Perhaps, pending a provocation on their part, we should take precautionary measures with regard to our diplomats as well. We’ll see about that.
I have already answered the question about how we feel about the recently vocalised idea of recognising the Lugansk and Donetsk people's republics. My answer is straightforward: we must push for the implementation of the Minsk agreements. There’s a host of people out there who are ready to grab any excuse to remove blame from Kiev for the sabotage which it has been involved in for eight years now with regard to the document approved by the UN Security Council.

Question: You said that NATO Secretary General Jens Stoltenberg has lost touch with reality. Maybe you live in different realities? Today, he will give a live interview to Ekho Moskvy. Do you want to say hi to him or ask a question?

Sergey Lavrov: Serves him right.

Question: I looked through the list of the sanctions approved by the US Congress and Treasury last year. The absolute majority of them are associated with the name of Alexey Navalny, not Ukraine. The OPCW (independent German, French and Swedish labs) found traces of a poisonous substance in his blood, which clearly means that he was poisoned. The Foreign Ministry requested assistance. But Russia did not open a criminal investigation. Germany said in that case there would be no help. We are members of the OPCW. You have seen the report on Navalny. Do you continue to cooperate on this matter? We are in the minority in every single international European organisation. We are saying that the ECHR, PACE, the OSCE and the OPCW are Russophobes. Could it be that Russia is the one that is out of step?
Sergey Lavrov: I'll start off by saying that I watched Euronews yesterday. There was a story about the village of Dvani in Georgia, near the South Ossetian border. It is located in an area that Georgia considers its territory. The reporter said he was in the village of Dvani at the separation line, with the administrative border that Russia keeps fortifying behind him. A house owned by a Georgian “was burned down during the war.” The new one “came into the Russian military’s surveillance zone.” A local resident said that we were “abducting people in unfathomable ways.” A Georgian journalist said that he has been “working in the villages near the conflict zone for several years now” and that “14 years have passed since the war that forced the people to live in difficult circumstances ended. They are losing their lands and forest allotments almost daily. People are being kidnapped. Russian troops are detaining them,” etc. Then the reporter continued to say that “after the collapse of the Soviet Union, Georgia was the first among the former Soviet republics to experience an escalation of separatism and armed confrontation, and thousands of refugees are still unable to return home.”
He didn’t say, though, anything about what kind of separatism took root in Georgia even before the breakup of the Soviet Union. Zviad Gamsakhurdia was quite chauvinistic in his demands for Abkhazians to get out or to “georgify.” He believed South Ossetia residents did not deserve humane treatment. Nobody is saying anything about it. Then comes a brilliant phrase: “In 2008, when the conflict entered the hot phase, Russia took South Ossetia’s side.” This is Euronews, which touts itself as a channel of fair news and an epitome of diversity when it comes to presenting diverse viewpoints. They did not even mention how the fratricidal conflict began.
I’m saying this because you asked a question about the OPCW without mentioning the reference points that require clarification. If we state it the way you framed your question, then Michael McFaul and other unsophisticated listeners may get the impression that all of that is true. You are saying we asked the Germans to provide clarifications, and they wanted us to open a criminal investigation before they give us anything. What is that all about? Germany's obligations under the European Convention on Mutual Assistance in Criminal Matters are not dependent on whether a particular country opens a criminal investigation or not. Under our laws, a criminal case can be opened if there is corroborating evidence. This is in no way inconsistent with multiple instances of using this procedure in relations with many other countries. We have a lot of material which we circulate around the world. I’m sure reporters from Ekho Moskvy and other media outlets have access to it.
We are still waiting for an answer to our question about who flew in to pick up Alexey Navalny. Why the plane that flew to Omsk to pick him up was chartered the day before he fell ill. Why are there no answers to the purely specific and factual questions asked in the German Parliament: how come the pilot, who did not want Maria Pevchikh to take the bottle onboard, eventually let her do so? There was also a sixth passenger. These questions were asked at the Bundestag. Why is it impossible to question Ms Pevchikh? The Germans say she did not communicate with the blogger and did not visit him at the hospital. She wrote that she did. The bottle she brought along has not been shown to anyone. Our requests to run a joint examination of it are rejected. Allegations that illegal poisonous substances were found in Mr Navalny’s body began after no CWC-prohibited substances had been found by the Charité clinic, which is a civilian hospital. All of that was “discovered” at a clinic operated by the Bundeswehr in a matter of just three days. Before that, a similar scenario unfolded with the Skripal family. We insisted that the investigation must be grounded in hard facts, not “highly likely” assumptions. We cited facts that there are almost 150 patents for the infamous Novichok in the West, in particular, the United States. It was developed in Europe as well. Then Germany, France, Sweden and many other countries swore that they did not have this technology. Without the technology, it is impossible to detect this substance in the human body in three days. Any more or less experienced chemist is aware of that.
At first, the Germans told us that they would not give us the materials, because they constituted “classified military information.” How’s that? We are being accused of murder or attempted murder, and the information is classified. By definition, they should not have access to this technology if they are bona fide participants in the CWC. Then they began to say that they could give it to us, but Navalny says no. What's next? At the same time, his lawyer criticised Dmitry Peskov for accusing the blogger of collaborating with the CIA and demanded proof. What kind of proof? US intelligence officers came to see him at the hospital, which Dmitry Peskov mentioned. We are demanding proof behind the accusation of attempted murder, but we are then told that he does not want to.
We asked the OPCW to provide the results but were told that they could do so only with the permission of the Germans. The circle closed. Read carefully the paper released by the OPCW. It says that some substances were discovered that are similar in composition to other substances that are on the OPCW’s banned chemicals list. Not a word about Novichok. Neither the Germans, nor the French, nor the Swedes gave us the formula. It’s classified. The formula is the proof of whether this is true or pure deception and lies.
I am inclined to believe that so far the West has no grounds to accuse us. This is done for the purpose of instigating a provocation. I mentioned the day when a special flight was chartered to fly to Omsk to pick up Mr Navalny. The day before the poisoning, the Germans (according to the OPCW report) asked The Hague for assistance in conducting the investigation of this case. Then they said it was a typo, and everything actually happened later. There are many interesting things there. In early September 2020, the Germans contacted the OPCW. The OPCW Secretariat concealed this from us for several days. In hindsight, they confessed that the Germans allegedly asked them not to tell anyone. Doesn’t it all look suspicious? It does to me, and suspicions run deep. I encourage Ekho Moskvy and other radio stations’ listeners to go the Foreign Ministry’s website and read the material containing a vast number of legitimate questions that remain unanswered by the West to this day.

Question: The most popular question: will there be a war with Ukraine?

Sergey Lavrov: This is what we started off with. If it’s up to the Russian Federation, there will be no war. I do not rule out the possibility that someone out there would like to provoke hostilities.
According to the West, there are about 100,000 troops on the line of contact. The Kiev regime does not control most of these armed men. A significant portion of the units that are stationed there include the former volunteer battalions, current territorial defence units, and militia. MANPADS are already being handed out to them. The media are reporting this information. They are encouraged to bring along hunting rifles with them, because there aren’t enough MANPADS for everyone. This is a militaristic frenzy. I cannot rule out the possibility of someone losing it, just like that soldier who shot and killed five of his fellow servicemen.

Question: Why aren’t we talking with Vladimir Zelensky? He is one of us, a former Komsomol member with a background in Channel One.

Sergey Lavrov: He is also a “piano player.” President Vladimir Putin answered this question. If President Zelensky wants to talk about normalising bilateral relations that were damaged by the unilateral actions of his regime, actions to which we responded, Russia stands ready to do so. Let him come to Moscow, Sochi, or St Petersburg, wherever they may agree. But if he wants to discuss Donbass – please go to the Contact Group, which, according to the Normandy format’s decision, is in charge of all settlement issues directly between Kiev, Donetsk and Lugansk. When he says he won’t talk to us, this bodes ill for the domestic Ukrainian crisis. If he has something to offer in order to restore bilateral relations, the destruction of which Kiev, Vladimir Zelensky and his predecessor initiated, we are ready to consider his proposals. President Vladimir Putin has stated this in no uncertain terms.

Question: Another meme for a T-shirt from Minister Lavrov: “Please go to the Contact Group.”
Question: Are we going to evacuate our staff from Kiev as well?

Sergey Lavrov: We discussed this bout of insanity that is being fomented in Ukraine, primarily by the Anglo-Saxons and some Europeans. Dramatic claims that everyone must leave the place are part of this insanity. People who came there to tend to their business are urged to leave. Diplomats and their families are being taken home and non-core staff is being cut.
We cannot let it go unnoticed or turn a blind eye to it. If they are doing this (even though the Ukrainians haven’t asked them to), could it be that the Anglo-Saxons are up to something? The British particularly have a long track record in this area.

Question: This happened after you said something during a meeting with US Secretary of State Antony Blinken. What did you say or show to him? Immediately after the Geneva meeting, he started saying that diplomats should be evacuated. You must have done something.

Sergey Lavrov: You are mistaken if you think that I have lost the ability to understand what is happening around me. I didn't say anything to him. In a one-on-one conversation (I hope this will not offend him) he told me that if something happens, their people would be there... It sounded rather strange to me. That’s what I told him.
Take my word for it, we discussed nothing but security guarantees. Then I raised the issue of the unacceptable state of affairs with our diplomatic missions. I made a proposal which we eventually agreed upon. In a couple of weeks, another meeting between experts will take place. I can assure you that no threats were uttered. However, we cannot leave things without analysis. We are analysing them to see what stands behind the Anglo-Saxons’ actions.

Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Trenchcoat on February 15, 2022, 11:07:47 PM
U.S. recommends leaving Belarus  in addition to Ukraine.  Is Moldova the only "safe " fsu destination?

Moldova is apparently even poorer than Ukraine, even I would have a godlike presence there :D

Apparently Russia has hit Ukraine with cyber attacks, on its banking and on its defense organisation. It was generally thought this would happen before an attack. My guess is that its only going to be effective so long before the Ukrainians have their defense IT network up and running again otherwise the Russians will have to try and cyber attack again. Maybe a Russian attack is very soon, maybe 3AM Thursday night or similar.

Whatever the case Russia doesn't seem very sincere with their intentions to talk and reach an agreement with the West & Ukraine. After all why keep hitting Ukraine with cyber attacks like this?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10515943/Ukraine-hit-cyber-attack-targeting-ministry-defence-banks-alleged-Russian-hybrid-war.html

Apparently if anything Russia has added more troops rather than withdrawn any this article says:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10517169/Putin-stays-talks-sends-troops-Biden-says-war-risk.html

They reckon that they may carry out a false flag under the pretext that just as they were withdrawing they were attacked what I was thinking or the reason to attack as genocide in Eastern Ukraine as CB thought.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Chelseaboy on February 16, 2022, 03:03:05 AM
Ben Wallace confirmed this morning that there has been "no evidence" of any Russian de-escalation,that 60% of Russia's ground forces backed-up by Air and Naval power,continue to encircle Ukraine,and indeed that more military equipment and field hospitals are being installed on the border.


So it seems the Russians lied yesterday.


Who knew ?  :rolleyes:
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Trenchcoat on February 16, 2022, 03:59:07 AM
Ben Wallace confirmed this morning that there has been "no evidence" of any Russian de-escalation,that 60% of Russia's ground forces backed-up by Air and Naval power,continue to encircle Ukraine,and indeed that more military equipment and field hospitals are being installed on the border.


So it seems the Russians lied yesterday.


Who knew ?  :rolleyes:

So looks even more like they are getting fully prepared for an Invasion. That they lied and tried to pull a stunt seemingly suggests that they can't be trusted and are up to something. Possibly they may bring in more air support for their troops, so possibly an Invasion around the end of the Olympics may occur as one Ukrainian General seemed to think.

I also wonder if the Russians might end up permanently encamped around the Ukrainian border. Long term it will no doubt play havoc with the economy, flights will be a no go and if Russia continues to blockade Ukraine's ports that will have a particularly damaging impact on their economy. Possibly trying to cause enough economic damage to get Ukraine to bend to its will. The threat of a Russian Invasion all year round could take its toll on Ukrainian citizens also. Apparently it was reckoned that Putin could only keep his forces there till the end of Spring roughly due to cost but who knows perhaps that person was wrong. Main cost I would have thought would be in moving the army back and forth and on military exercises, firing missiles, etc. The rest of the cost surely is what Russia pays all year round anyway, the cost of service personnel and equipment.

I'm not sure that Russia would take in the cost of moving the army around like it has done for no purpose. They did last year but that looks like it was a trial run. This time the signs of an Invasion seem a lot more prominent. I'm still thinking Putin is on the last stage of preparing for an Invasion and just manoeuvring for a reason then will occur. Could be within days now.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: BC on February 16, 2022, 05:21:19 AM
All this reminds me of the ReForGer exercises in the 70's and 80's.  Convoys of of US tanks and military equipment filling the autobahns going east, Air Force fighters buzzing low enough to make dishes in the china cabinet shake, and soldiers setting up camp in your village.  I wonder how USSR felt about all that back then.  I was just a kid and it was quite a spectacle, later on not so much in the military having to put on gas masks and such during exercises.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: John Gaunt on February 16, 2022, 06:03:04 AM
So looks even more like they are getting fully prepared for an Invasion. That they lied and tried to pull a stunt seemingly suggests that they can't be trusted and are up to something. Possibly they may bring in more air support for their troops, so possibly an Invasion around the end of the Olympics may occur as one Ukrainian General seemed to think.

I also wonder if the Russians might end up permanently encamped around the Ukrainian border. Long term it will no doubt play havoc with the economy, flights will be a no go and if Russia continues to blockade Ukraine's ports that will have a particularly damaging impact on their economy. Possibly trying to cause enough economic damage to get Ukraine to bend to its will. The threat of a Russian Invasion all year round could take its toll on Ukrainian citizens also. Apparently it was reckoned that Putin could only keep his forces there till the end of Spring roughly due to cost but who knows perhaps that person was wrong. Main cost I would have thought would be in moving the army back and forth and on military exercises, firing missiles, etc. The rest of the cost surely is what Russia pays all year round anyway, the cost of service personnel and equipment.

I'm not sure that Russia would take in the cost of moving the army around like it has done for no purpose. They did last year but that looks like it was a trial run. This time the signs of an Invasion seem a lot more prominent. I'm still thinking Putin is on the last stage of preparing for an Invasion and just manoeuvring for a reason then will occur. Could be within days now.
More of Trenchies winning theories.
Mobilising an army incurs vast costs.
No country can afford to keep its armed forces mobilized for war for an extended period from peacetime positions.
Cost aside, it has all kinds of other implications affecting war readiness.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: BC on February 16, 2022, 06:10:14 AM
I'm not sure that Russia would take in the cost of moving the army around like it has done for no purpose.

Doesn't cost them a dime more than they already pay.  In fact, they profit from the spike in oil and energy prices.

Meanwhile, US and NATO are shelling out a bundle burning additional fuel, further helping to raise demand and fill Putin's pockets even more.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Jumper1 on February 16, 2022, 08:20:19 AM
US Intelligence has since said that they haven't seen any obvious sign of troop withdrawal.

Putin has said to the German Chancellor that he does not wish for war.

What actually happens who knows.

A night time attack at 3am would probably be the best time. Russian forces could be closing in on Kyiv just as Ukrainians are waking up in the morning. I don't reckon it will be tonight though now that time has been spread about.

I think Putin may just be manoeuvring himself now to find a reason to attack. Just after saying he doesn't wish for war may not be the best time as so soon could look very shallow. My guess is if he wants to invade he'll give a good day or two and then make a move. Quite what the excuse will be who knows, possibly as CB suggests to stop the supposed 'genocide' in Eastern Ukraine. Would probably sound better and more justified than any false flag carry on.

It why I said the games people play ....

On BOTH sides.

As far as your thoughts on attack timing.

1pm.3am 9pm ,makes zero difference in modern warfare.

Do you think military sleeps in hoping to fight after first coffee?

As far as the average citizen being in bed at 3am as he works a day shift.
Unless per organized that average citizens effect on initial invasion is fundamentally zero.

(Granted that same ordinary citizen in an occupied country resisting in organized guerilla warfare is devastating and a country cant be held if most citizens resist)

But initial.invasion timing if all.out war (and I still do not think that will occur) could be anytime the russian military wants it to be. And they could have already ,procrastination if it was their intent hurts them, so I just dont think its thecroot intent
They have far superior airpower and would take out communications first. Then mop up. Modern history shows this is less than 24 hours (typically much less) by any modern major power in initial conflict.(Iraq  or afganistan was on a scale of 100s of times the experoenced military personal and preparedness of Ukraine)
Now occupying it is a completely different issue.

This is posturing for effect ,and look how effective it has been?





Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: GQBlues on February 16, 2022, 08:53:24 AM
Our current hyperventilating administration's intelligence agencies went from *an imminent invasion as soon as within this week* to *an attack is still a distinct possibility*.

Blood, guts and gore, baby. The evil empire amasses thousands of military personnel and its war machines ready to pounce on poor military-inferior territories, conducting very provocative military drills, yadayada - and not expect a nation not to react about such displays of hegemony?

From the Korean peninsula, to the China seas, to the borders of Estonia, Kosovo and plenty other European nations, Somalia and the Congos, the Arabian peninsulas, the Persian gulf to the Barents sea...

WE (the US) really need to stop these *threats of imminent attack* upon other nations in our attempt to spread our brand of freedom (LMAO) and democracy (sic).


Proof? Ask yourself a very simple question: Which nation had bombed and invaded other nations in the recent past?
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Chelseaboy on February 16, 2022, 09:33:54 AM
Our current hyperventilating administration's intelligence agencies went from *an imminent invasion as soon as within this week* to *an attack is still a distinct possibility*.

Blood, guts and gore, baby. The evil empire amasses thousands of military personnel and its war machines ready to pounce on poor military-inferior territories, conducting very provocative military drills, yadayada - and not expect a nation not to react about such displays of hegemony?

From the Korean peninsula, to the China seas, to the borders of Estonia, Kosovo and plenty other European nations, Somalia and the Congos, the Arabian peninsulas, the Persian gulf to the Barents sea...

WE (the US) really need to stop these *threats of imminent attack* upon other nations in our attempt to spread our brand of freedom (LMAO) and democracy (sic).


Proof? Ask yourself a very simple question: Which nation had bombed and invaded other nations in the recent past?


Russia for a start..they invaded and bombed Georgia in 2008.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: GQBlues on February 16, 2022, 09:38:40 AM

Russia for a start..they invaded and bombed Georgia in 2008.

Very true. Ukraine in 2014, yes!

Russia= II
UK = http://www.mentalfloss.com/article/13019/there-are-only-22-countries-world-british-haven%E2%80%99t-invaded (http://www.mentalfloss.com/article/13019/there-are-only-22-countries-world-british-haven%E2%80%99t-invaded)
US = ??

How'bout the UK, grasshopper? The US?!? how'bout those peace and freedom-loving nations? If you get stumped, LOVE to help a bruddah out!
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Chelseaboy on February 16, 2022, 09:39:45 AM
On a Sky News live feed from Kiev a Ukrainian guy got quite emotional as he said Ukrainians are saying "God bless the Queen " for the support the UK is giving Ukraine.


Trench will be like a rock star if he can get over there this year. :)
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Chelseaboy on February 16, 2022, 09:43:55 AM
Very true. Ukraine in 2014, yes!

Russia= II
UK = ??
US = ??

How'bout the UK, grasshopper? The US?!? how'bout those peace and freedom-loving nations? If you get stumped, LOVE to help a bruddah out!


Yep we're just as bad..no argument from me about that.


Many Brits,including me,consider Tony Blair a war criminal for the invasion of Iraq based on fabricated info put out about WMD.


Millions over here protested about it at the time.


Blair didn't get sent down but instead made millions in after-dinner speeches in the USA. >:D
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: GQBlues on February 16, 2022, 09:46:21 AM

Yep we're just as bad..no argument from me about that.


Many Brits,including me,consider Tony Blair a war criminal for the invasion of Iraq based on fabricated info put out about WMD.


Millions over here protested about it at the time.


Blair didn't get sent down but instead made millions in after-dinner speeches in the USA. >:D


Mr. Tony Blair??? That's it? Are you sure?


http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/libya-civil-war-david-cameron-gaddafi-bombing-brexit-a8863306.html (http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/libya-civil-war-david-cameron-gaddafi-bombing-brexit-a8863306.html)
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Chelseaboy on February 16, 2022, 09:55:36 AM
I'm no fan of Cameron,but in fairness to him Libya attacked us first..with Lockerbie.


Libya and Gaddafi brought it upon themselves.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: GQBlues on February 16, 2022, 10:09:50 AM
I'm no fan of Cameron,but in fairness to him Libya attacked us first..with Lockerbie.

Libya and Gaddafi brought it upon themselves.

Really?! How'bout the colonization of Tripolitania? Does that count? Can colonization fall in the definition of an 'invasion'? Oppression, slavery, murder, rape, pillaging?

What do you think?


How'bout Afghanistan? What did that country ever do to the UK?
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Trenchcoat on February 16, 2022, 11:05:44 AM
Ukraine's problems have basically cone about because of the EU. There was a push in Ukraine prior to 2014 to look to EU membership, when the then Ukrainian President backed out an agreement that would have put Ukraine on the path to EU Membership that's when it all went south, Ukrainian unrest, overturning the Ukrainian government of the day and ousting the then Ukrainian President as he was seen as too aligned with Russia for some. The ever expansionist EU just couldn't hold back from seeking to expand further. Now they are stony broke and unable to thank god. Poland & Hungary are becoming discontent and in Ukraine joining the EU isn't as popular as it once was in any case. Anyhow the increasingly pro western anti Russian government from 2014 onwards has riled Russia up a lot. I think the new Ukrainian government after the unrest in 2014 should have been more conciliatory towards the ex-President and eastern Ukrainian regions then they wouldn't be in this mess.

On the other hand if they kept hold of a couple of hundred nukes they wouldn't be in this mess either. Both giving up all their nukes and trying to join the EU bad mistakes I think. Prior to 2014 Russia seemed content enough with the situation with Ukraine. I'm not saying it is right what Russia is doing, clearly it is not but I think bad policy mistakes have been made along the way both by Ukraine and the EU.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Chelseaboy on February 16, 2022, 11:19:39 AM
GQBlues,


If you're accusing British troops of rape,pillage and murder in Tripolitania i suggest you provide proof of this to the British Ministry of Defence....i'm sure they'll be intrigued by your evidence of this .


As for Afghanistan you can thank Tony Blair for that again.seems that his bum-licking of the USA made him a very wealthy man on the USA after-dinner circuit.


Of course Russia spent nine years killing people in Afghanistan,after they invaded in 1979, before the UK entered the country...i don't see you questioning them though.


I wonder why ?
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Boethius on February 16, 2022, 12:09:03 PM
Russia also has aided the al-Assad regime in Syria, rather successfully.  Unbothered by pesky concepts such as "human rights", they have allegedly killed more civilians than terrorists, in bombing campaigns that have used cluster bombs and white phosphorous bombs.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: GQBlues on February 16, 2022, 12:42:54 PM
GQBlues,

If you're accusing British troops of rape,pillage and murder in Tripolitania i suggest you provide proof of this to the British Ministry of Defence....i'm sure they'll be intrigued by your evidence of this .


Accused? LMAO. Fancy that, eh? Short/long term memory loss, bruddah?

Quote
As for Afghanistan you can thank Tony Blair for that again.seems that his bum-licking of the USA made him a very wealthy man on the USA after-dinner circuit.


It seems 'blaming' Blair is rampant in your line of thinking..in the US that's called 'passing the buck'. How did Mr. Blair come into such a powerful position again to cause the UK's bloody hand in Afghanistan again?


But giving Blair a break, what about UK's bloody period in Afghanistan BEFORE Mr. Tony Blair was even born?

Quote
f course Russia spent nine years killing people in Afghanistan,after they invaded in 1979, before the UK entered the country...i don't see you questioning them though.

I wonder why ?


Oh trust me, I'm not a Russia apologist, much less a Putin apologist. I have more than a dozen bricks on my hand myself based on the country I reside in currently. Since you and I are are discussing 'invasions' in this proverbial glass house, it looks as those you've conveniently (intentionally/ignorantly?) forgotten more than a few bricks yourself since you've been so loud about this current event, considering the VERY BLOODY British hands and legacy in the world - currently and in historical past, yah know...

The more things change, the more they remain the same.


 >:D
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Boethius on February 16, 2022, 12:47:38 PM
Why does the past matter, beyond us doing better in the future?

Do you think African Americans should receive reparations, as proposed, because of America's history with slavery?

Should first nations be compensated with more land?  More money? 

Should Arab countries pay reparations to Africans, Slavs, Americans, and the Europeans they enslaved?  Should the Turks?  How about the African traders who brought them to Arabs?  Should Belgium pay reparations to the Congolese for their rape of that country, which makes the Brits look like choirboys?  How about the Spaniards?  The Portuguese?  The Japanese?  The Chinese?  The list of those that are "innocent" is, in reality, non existent.  The only reason the Brits get singled out is because they were exceptionally successful.

We are a planet of predators, and no one comes to the dance with clean hands. 
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: GQBlues on February 16, 2022, 01:03:21 PM
Why does the past matter, beyond us doing better in the future?

Do you think African Americans should receive reparations, as proposed, because of America's history with slavery?

Should first nations be compensated with more land?  More money? 

Should Arab countries pay reparations to Africans, Slavs, Americans, and the Europeans they enslaved?  Should the Turks?  How about the African traders who brought them to Arabs?  Should Belgium pay reparations to the Congolese for their rape of that country, which makes the Brits look like choirboys?  How about the Spaniards?  The Portuguese?  The Japanese?  The Chinese?  The list of those that are "innocent" is, in reality, non existent.  The only reason the Brits get singled out is because they were exceptionally successful.

We are a planet of predators, and no one comes to the dance with clean hands.


Did you conveniently left off the people of first nations in Canada? How about the children of the 'Residential Schools' (http://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/jun/29/the-childrens-graves-at-residential-schools-in-canada-evoke-the-massacres-of-indigenous-australians)? These aren't exactly 'the past', you know. Rather pretty current actually.


I agree *WE ALL* must do better in the future. The first order for that is, quit throwing bricks at others when all the while neglecting our own demons. Unless we do that, then people simply chooses to be in denial and are too busy blowing hot air because they're either being purposely ignorant or are simply hypocrites.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Trenchcoat on February 16, 2022, 01:11:12 PM
Blinky reckons even more units being moved to the Ukrainian Front rather than away:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10519563/Secretary-State-Blinken-says-Putin-moving-critical-units-Ukrainian-border.html

Looks like they are massing for a major attack. Invasion likely very imminent!

Apparently the troops that were moved were moved back to their home base that is even nearer the Ukraine border than where they were. In the mean time Russia has moved up even more troops. Really does look like they are getting to the climax, their moving troops right up to Ukraine's border now.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Chelseaboy on February 16, 2022, 02:05:36 PM

Did you conveniently left off the people of first nations in Canada? How about the children of the 'Residential Schools' (http://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/jun/29/the-childrens-graves-at-residential-schools-in-canada-evoke-the-massacres-of-indigenous-australians)? These aren't exactly 'the past', you know. Rather pretty current actually.


I agree *WE ALL* must do better in the future. The first order for that is, quit throwing bricks at others when all the while neglecting our own demons. Unless we do that, then people simply chooses to be in denial and are too busy blowing hot air because they're either being purposely ignorant or are simply hypocrites.


I have no demons.


I've never invaded another country or killed,maimed ,pillaged or raped.


Have you ?
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: GQBlues on February 16, 2022, 02:21:01 PM

I have no demons.

I've never invaded another country or killed,maimed ,pillaged or raped.

Have you ?


For a fact, I know a bunch of 4th graders in US public schools that can actually manage a coherent debate compared to you. Run along...
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Chelseaboy on February 16, 2022, 02:31:35 PM

For a fact, I know a bunch of 4th graders in US public schools that can actually manage a coherent debate compared to you. Run along...


Interesting that you chose to deflect my question.


Well,just to inform you,as someone who has never invaded another country or killed,maimed.pillaged or raped, that means i have every right to question a leader ( Putin ) who has a history of sending troops in to do just that...and may be about to do the same again....whether you like my questioning him or not.


That doesn't make me a hypocrite...as i would be doing the same if it was British troops on the Ukraine border...plus i have no demons to prick my conscience.


But it isn't Brits it's Russian troops.....and it isn't the past ..it's in the here and now.


So you can sit there and rant at and mock the west all you like, the facts are it's Russian troops on the Ukraine border..not evil western powers.


Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Boethius on February 16, 2022, 03:22:47 PM

Did you conveniently left off the people of first nations in Canada? How about the children of the 'Residential Schools' (http://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/jun/29/the-childrens-graves-at-residential-schools-in-canada-evoke-the-massacres-of-indigenous-australians)? These aren't exactly 'the past', you know. Rather pretty current actually.


I didn't leave off first nations in Canada.  See my post. 


I did not refer to residential schools because residents and their survivors have been compensated.  I was involved in negotiating some of those settlements, a little more than a decade ago.  The number is over $50 billion currently.  Keep in mind, not all FN were in residential schools. 


Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: GQBlues on February 16, 2022, 03:31:37 PM

I didn't leave off first nations in Canada.  See my post. 

*Compensated* What a nice, comforting word to some. Is that what it is all about to you? Compensation for those who survived? Must be a 'common' word in the Commonwealth. LMAO. Prince Andrew, I'm sure, is feeling so much better of himself lately. Compensation.

Quote
I did not refer to residential schools because residents and their survivors have been compensated.  I was involved in negotiating some of those settlements, a little more than a decade ago.  The number is over $50 billion currently.  Keep in mind, not all FN were in residential schools.

 :-X  No. (Un)fortunately, not anymore. Not amongst us anymore either.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Chelseaboy on February 16, 2022, 03:34:18 PM
Touch a nerve? That's your reply?  >:D



LMAO! You must be kidding me/us? Holy Molly! Let me help you out as 'thinking' is obviously not your suit. Place the mouse cursor to the 'flag' underneath that gorgeous mug below my handle. A country's name will appear. Let me know if you need help with that, too.


Stars and Stripes. Home of the Brave. U-S-A! Ring a bell? Yes/No?



I'm well aware of the flags beneath posters handles..but not everyone bothers to change their flag when they move to another country....i don't when i live abroad for a period.


I've looked at all your posts on this thread....and not once have you questioned Putin or Russia about the build-up of military forces on Ukraine's border...not once.


All you do is castigate the USA/UK/NATO as if's it's us who have troops on Ukraine's border.


I wonder why ?
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: fathertime on February 16, 2022, 04:32:22 PM
I'm no fan of Cameron,but in fairness to him Libya attacked us first..with Lockerbie.


Libya and Gaddafi brought it upon themselves.
I don't blame countries like Libya that have little choice but to resort to 'terrorism'.  They will be massacred militarily, so they do what they have to do to still put up a fight.    They lost a lot of people/military prior to this Lockerbie incident, so they probably feel justified in doing SOMETHING to retaliate.    Western nations like the US and United Kingdom have been able to create a tough business environment for many nations and have been willing to use our military to enforce it.    By taking it to that level, it makes everybody a target. 

Fathertime! 
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: ML on February 16, 2022, 06:34:48 PM
I've never invaded another country . . .

What about your WMVM or WOVO incursions ?
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Boethius on February 16, 2022, 06:37:07 PM
*Compensated* What a nice, comforting word to some. Is that what it is all about to you? Compensation for those who survived? Must be a 'common' word in the Commonwealth. LMAO. Prince Andrew, I'm sure, is feeling so much better of himself lately. Compensation.

 :-X  No. (Un)fortunately, not anymore. Not amongst us anymore either.


Unlike the US, Canada entered into treaties with all its First Nations.  That's what all the court cases are about - the terms and conditions of those treaties. So, based on the treaties, it is, in fact, compensation that is relevant.


Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: fathertime on February 16, 2022, 08:43:31 PM


Looks like they are massing for a major attack. Invasion likely very imminent!
 
I've read this before, and before, and before!    Looks like the 3am attack yesterday didn't happen.

Fathertime!
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Jumper1 on February 16, 2022, 09:10:02 PM
Blinky reckons even more units being moved to the Ukrainian Front rather than away:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10519563/Secretary-State-Blinken-says-Putin-moving-critical-units-Ukrainian-border.html

Looks like they are massing for a major attack. Invasion likely very imminent!

Apparently the troops that were moved were moved back to their hone base that is even nearer the Ukraine border than where they were. In the mean time Russia has moved up even more troops. Really does look like they are getting to the climax, their moving troops right up to Ukraine's border now.

Just for you Trenchy

Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: John Gaunt on February 16, 2022, 11:08:30 PM
Just for you Trenchy
Don’t give him any ideas.  :naughty:
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: John Gaunt on February 16, 2022, 11:16:23 PM
I don't blame countries like Libya that have little choice but to resort to 'terrorism'.  They will be massacred militarily, so they do what they have to do to still put up a fight.    They lost a lot of people/military prior to this Lockerbie incident, so they probably feel justified in doing SOMETHING to retaliate.    Western nations like the US and United Kingdom have been able to create a tough business environment for many nations and have been willing to use our military to enforce it.    By taking it to that level, it makes everybody a target. 

Fathertime!

Seriously!!!
You’re condoning murder?
What next?
Will you also condone the mowing down of bystanders in Nice using a 19 ton truck by Islamic terrorists or what happened at Bataclan?
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Chelseaboy on February 17, 2022, 03:22:17 AM
The Ukrainian President has tweeted today;


"I appreciate the support of Great Britain and grateful to Boris Johnson for the unity with Ukraine ! This is very important for us,especially now ! Let's join forces to preserve peace . "


He has also thanked Lithuania in another tweet.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: GQBlues on February 17, 2022, 07:11:28 AM

Unlike the US, Canada entered into treaties with all its First Nations.  That's what all the court cases are about - the terms and conditions of those treaties. So, based on the treaties, it is, in fact, compensation that is relevant.

There you go again. I’ve no idea how or why you make these broad statement that is simply shockingly false. You watch Rachel Maddow too much.

There are nearly 400 treaties made between the US government and it’s indigenous Native American tribes. Of which, IIRC, over 20 were broken inside of the year it was reconciled. Since you rely on Google too much, feel free to fact check my statement.

As for Canada, if you’re referring to the enactment/formation of TRC, crimes and racism in Canada still prevalently remains today. I can provide you mountains of proof of that statement if you like. Canada, like the US, is nothing more than a testament of what a horde of European white trash can do when given an opportunity to govern a territory. That is a fact, and a historical legacy of European strain.

To actually feel good claiming any monetary compensation is relevant as some form of reconciliatory tool in exchange for its evil deeds, is even more sinful and evil in itself. Share that reasoning to the survivors of the holocaust.

Canada even have an acronym for one of its genocidal acts, MMIWG. I’m certain you’re very familiar with that.

There’s no greater evil than absolute transgressions against the innocence of children.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: fathertime on February 17, 2022, 07:13:43 AM
Seriously!!!
You’re condoning murder?
What next?
Will you also condone the mowing down of bystanders in Nice using a 19 ton truck by Islamic terrorists or what happened at Bataclan?

Oh, quit being so dramatic and face reality.  Smaller nations with inferior technology may decide to use whatever means necessary to try to keep larger interlopers from trying to push them around.  Terrorism is all they have at times. 
Nothing much in the world is 'fair'.   A Hyena verses a lion.  The lion always wins.   Pack of hyena verses lion, hyenas may win.  Especially since they fight 'dirty' and come from behind to tear off Lion's balls while he is occupied with another of the hyenas. 

If YOU are condoning suppression of a nation, then you have to bear the consequences.   Why would you expect a smaller nation to just accept their fate without doing everything in their power to fight back.   The US kills women/children all the time, but it is deemed a mistake and is largely ignored. 

Fathertime!
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: GQBlues on February 17, 2022, 09:39:35 AM
Now that the February 16 Russian invasion of Ukraine had come and gone, crickets can be heard along the eastern border, reports US VP Kamala Harris. She laid witness to lines upon endless lines of grandmothers with flowers in their hands as the celebration of the coming spring and togetherness of one nation, one people festival. In between the festivities, multi-tasking US VP Kamala Harris had to excused herself to check if any emails arrived in her computer. One actually did. An email from Maria Zakharova, it said:


Privet durochka Harris,

With your assistance, I will call on all your media outlet to publish a full list of dates on which Russia will invade Ukraine for the year ahead, so Russian diplomats can schedule their vacations accordingly.

Spasiba.



Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Trenchcoat on February 17, 2022, 10:26:33 AM
Just for you Trenchy

That's a good one Jumper, would love to adopt a Ukrainian babe ;D
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Muzh on February 17, 2022, 11:55:22 AM


What Happens to Us if There Is War?


http://www.nytimes.com/2022/02/16/opinion/russia-ukraine-war.html (http://www.nytimes.com/2022/02/16/opinion/russia-ukraine-war.html)
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: tfcrew on February 17, 2022, 11:58:35 AM
(http://media.townhall.com/Townhall/Car/b/aria_c18844720220215120100.jpg)
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Trenchcoat on February 17, 2022, 12:38:20 PM
I've read this before, and before, and before!    Looks like the 3am attack yesterday didn't happen.

Fathertime!

It could happen tonight, it could happen any time in the next few days.

I didn't think it was likely to happen last night as that time was out so it took away any element of surprise. That and Putin would probably want to manoeuvre to an excuse for war particularly after he said he didn't want it to the German Chancellor. Theoretically he doesn't necessarily need an excuse, he could just say he's decided to take Ukrainian lands as he believes them Russian territory going back to Katherine the Great. Odds are though he'll probably source out one flimsy excuse.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/breaking-russia-ukraine-invasion-joe-26259442.amp

http://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/thousands-of-russian-troops-within-30-miles-of-ukraine-ready-to-invade-b983021.html

Bisen now thinks a war is inevitable. UK gov sources are now saying war is imminent if not inevitable. Apparently Russia has moved up troops to within 30 miles of Ukraine's border in recent hours. My guess is that they are going to make a dash for Kyiv, missiles aimed at any Ukrainian troops in the way then take up occupying land around Ukraine. They'll likely stay out the cities apart from possibly central Kyiv, cut off the rail & road routes and starve Ukrainians into submission. Ukraine's army in the east will probably be hammered by missiles into oblivion.

I personally think Putin is up for it.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Jumper1 on February 17, 2022, 03:01:30 PM
And why would it be inevitable?

Not one person on either side actually believes the dire *grievances * of either make war an inevitable.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Chelseaboy on February 17, 2022, 03:51:35 PM
It could happen tonight, it could happen any time in the next few days.

I didn't think it was likely to happen last night as that time was out so it took away any element of surprise. That and Putin would probably want to manoeuvre to an excuse for war particularly after he said he didn't want it to the German Chancellor. Theoretically he doesn't necessarily need an excuse, he could just say he's decided to take Ukrainian lands as he believes them Russian territory going back to Katherine the Great. Odds are though he'll probably source out one flimsy excuse.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/breaking-russia-ukraine-invasion-joe-26259442.amp (http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/breaking-russia-ukraine-invasion-joe-26259442.amp)

http://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/thousands-of-russian-troops-within-30-miles-of-ukraine-ready-to-invade-b983021.html (http://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/thousands-of-russian-troops-within-30-miles-of-ukraine-ready-to-invade-b983021.html)

Bisen now thinks a war is inevitable. UK gov sources are now saying war is imminent if not inevitable. Apparently Russia has moved up troops to within 30 miles of Ukraine's border in recent hours. My guess is that they are going to make a dash for Kyiv, missiles aimed at any Ukrainian troops in the way then take up occupying land around Ukraine. They'll likely stay out the cities apart from possibly central Kyiv, cut off the rail & road routes and starve Ukrainians into submission. Ukraine's army in the east will probably be hammered by missiles into oblivion.

I personally think Putin is up for it.


Putin might be up for it ...but his military might could soon be in deep trouble if he sends then in. ;D


Around a dozen Russian main battle tanks were filmed stuck in deep mud near the Ukrainian border in the Rostov region on 10th Feb and it took a civilian using an excavator to rescue them. ;D


Potential sitting ducks for those 2000 anti-tank missiles the Brits gave to the Ukrainians  :clapping:
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: fathertime on February 17, 2022, 03:53:56 PM

Bisen now thinks a war is inevitable.


I personally think Putin is up for it.

Bisen isn't a warrior and I believe he has ulterior motives. 

It's sad that governments are chiefed by the double tongues. There is no iron in his words of death for all Russia to see and so there is iron in his words of life. No signed paper can hold the iron. It must come from men. The words of Putin carries the same iron of life and death. 

(http://www.freedomsphoenix.com/Uploads/186/Graph/TenBears.jpg)
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Trenchcoat on February 17, 2022, 03:55:30 PM
And why would it be inevitable?

Not one person on either side actually believes the dire *grievances * of either make war an inevitable.

Because Putin isn't going to go to all the trouble of assembling such a force and put it into invasion position just for the joy of it. There's no sense to that, it's a waste without any gain.

In addition Putin has made out he was withdrawing forces when in fact he was doing the opposite. Why do that as a negotiating tactic? It has no sense to it, it would only breed distrust during any negotiation. It makes perfect sense if trying to cover for more troops to come in. He was found out and has been found out concocting false flag excuses for an invasion. He'll make inroads with something and when he will attack. I don't think he'll really care how flimsy something is as an excuse it could be drawn up on the back of a fag packet. He may not even bother that much with an excuse beyond his demands have not been satisfied and hence to protect Russia he needs to take back Ukraine.

I think most see now that his preparations are within their last few moments of readiness. The next stage is the order for the invasion, that is likely to come any day (or most likely night) now.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Trenchcoat on February 17, 2022, 04:00:59 PM

Putin might be up for it ...but his military might could soon be in deep trouble if he sends then in. ;D


Around a dozen Russian main battle tanks were filmed stuck in deep mud near the Ukrainian border in the Rostov region on 10th Feb and it took a civilian using an excavator to rescue them. ;D


Potential sitting ducks for those 2000 anti-tank missiles the Brits gave to the Ukrainians  :clapping:

All depends whether the ground has hardened since then by frost, etc.

Ukrainians best chance is probably to take the fight to the Russians, close in quick so they are too close for the Russians to use their missiles. Still the odds I doubt are good, even if they smash most of the Russian force Putin will probably bring in reinforcements. If Ukrainians attack first then they will give Putin the excuse he needs and a valid one at that.

Odds are Ukrainians will just have to endure whatever happens. If they can get a victory as you suggest CB then that would be a good one for Ukraine.

http://news.sky.com/story/ukraine-russia-crisis-world-leaders-fear-russia-is-creating-an-excuse-to-invade-ukraine-after-rise-in-attacks-across-disputed-donbas-regions-line-of-contact-12544212
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Chelseaboy on February 17, 2022, 04:18:31 PM
All depends whether the ground has hardened since then by frost, etc.



It hasn't..it's thawing...ripe for a slaughter of Russian tanks and troops stuck in deep mud. :clapping:


As for Russian reinforcements well if he's already lost the 60% of his troops he has on Ukraine's border i'm not sure how wise it would be to send the remaining 40% in..it would leave his military in a right old pickle..





As the BBC news crew were driving back from the Ukrainian border to Kiev today you can see where all the snow is thawing in the fields either side of the road...it'll be a quagmire ;D


Air power would be Russia's big advantage...so let's hope the Ukrainians have learnt how to use those SAM's Lithuania supplied them with well.

Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Boethius on February 17, 2022, 04:32:39 PM
There you go again. I’ve no idea how or why you make these broad statement that is simply shockingly false. You watch Rachel Maddow too much.

There are nearly 400 treaties made between the US government and it’s indigenous Native American tribes. Of which, IIRC, over 20 were broken inside of the year it was reconciled. Since you rely on Google too much, feel free to fact check my statement.

As for Canada, if you’re referring to the enactment/formation of TRC, crimes and racism in Canada still prevalently remains today. I can provide you mountains of proof of that statement if you like. Canada, like the US, is nothing more than a testament of what a horde of European white trash can do when given an opportunity to govern a territory. That is a fact, and a historical legacy of European strain.

To actually feel good claiming any monetary compensation is relevant as some form of reconciliatory tool in exchange for its evil deeds, is even more sinful and evil in itself. Share that reasoning to the survivors of the holocaust.

Canada even have an acronym for one of its genocidal acts, MMIWG. I’m certain you’re very familiar with that.

There’s no greater evil than absolute transgressions against the innocence of children.


Your country didn't enter into treaties with all bands.  Canada did, even though some of those treaties remain unfulfilled, and that is a travesty.  But that's not the point.  The point is, are you willing to fund all of these things?  Heck, why not make every person move back to the country of their ancestors, and let every nation sort things out.  No mixing of the artificial concept of "race".  No mixing even of the artificial concept of "ethnicity".


As for residential schools, yes, overall, they were horrid, as was the reason they were originally established.  But schools for non FN were no picnic at that time either.   In all, 150,000 children attended residential schools - not a huge number, given the total FN population.  I'm not dismissing it, and whether the school was bad or not depended very much on who was operating it.  I know FN individuals who don't have negative memories of residential schools.  But, most of them were close to "home".


No matter how much you google this, your knowledge will always be at best, superficial.  I have sat with elders.  I have worked with survivors.   I did a significant amount of FN work in the early to mid 2000's. The federal government still pays lip service to reconciliation, but all the real gains, other than treaty negotiations, have been made through court action.  Nevertheless, most survivors, and their descendants have stepped past this.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: GQBlues on February 17, 2022, 05:16:09 PM
Your country didn't enter into treaties with all bands.  Canada did, even though some of those treaties remain unfulfilled, and that is a travesty.  But that's not the point.  The point is, are you willing to fund all of these things?  Heck, why not make every person move back to the country of their ancestors, and let every nation sort things out.  No mixing of the artificial concept of "race".  No mixing even of the artificial concept of "ethnicity".


A croc, if not such a pointless statement. You made the allegations the US, unlike Canada, didn't have a treaty with its native Americans.

Quote
As for residential schools, yes, overall, they were horrid, as was the reason they were originally established.  But schools for non FN were no picnic at that time either.   In all, 150,000 children attended residential schools - not a huge number, given the total FN population.  I'm not dismissing it, and whether the school was bad or not depended very much on who was operating it.  I know FN individuals who don't have negative memories of residential schools.  But, most of them were close to "home".


BS! That policy began in the 1930s, ran nearly the rest of the century. Many of the children were kidnapped, taken without notice from their homes. Forced assimilation was the tip of the iceberg many of these kids faced. Being placed in these schools, and everything that happened after was evil. Many are still being recovered from mass graves.

Quote
No matter how much you google this, your knowledge will always be at best, superficial.  I have sat with elders.  I have worked with survivors.   I did a significant amount of FN work in the early to mid 2000's. The federal government still pays lip service to reconciliation, but all the real gains, other than treaty negotiations, have been made through court action.  Nevertheless, most survivors, and their descendants have stepped past this.

Funny. Steele Dossier / Russiagate and you deny you rely on Google. *Stepped past it* was a very predictable response considering, according to you, they already got paid monies.


 ::)  Imagine that.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Jumper1 on February 17, 2022, 07:41:26 PM

It hasn't..it's thawing...ripe for a slaughter of Russian tanks and troops stuck in deep mud. :clapping:


As for Russian reinforcements well if he's already lost the 60% of his troops he has on Ukraine's border i'm not sure how wise it would be to send the remaining 40% in..it would leave his military in a right old pickle..





As the BBC news crew were driving back from the Ukrainian border to Kiev today you can see where all the snow is thawing in the fields either side of the road...it'll be a quagmire ;D


Air power would be Russia's big advantage...so let's hope the Ukrainians have learnt how to use those SAM's Lithuania supplied them with well.

You seem* with the hand clapping  to want a war ,and glee at the thought of Ukrainians killing Russians.
Its odd.

I dont think  that's how any of that would go down, *if they choose a full.scale invasion in modern warfare.
The slaughter would be Ukrainian troops.

Sam's are fundamentally useless in the big picture

Russian air superiority is in no way challenged in both taking out communications or key targets for troop support by those Sam's.
You think in any of the major engagement the USA/uk forces have been in the last several.decades the countries dint have equally advanced ground to air systems for defense? How'd that work out?.

The Ukrainian airforce would be grounded or if they choose to fight , shot down within an hour of altercations.

The tanks arnt going to be bothered by the weather. Who is going to stop them.on the roads?
They wont roll in until.they need to clean up and until.its safe*
They arnt used that way unless the air cover is complete.why?, the average lifespan of a tank crew after active combat agaisnt a true full force(air/sea) military?
It's minutes.
Good thing  for Putin Ukraine wont have that typical major power abilty.

This seems a day dream.of  yours of prepared Ukrainians in guerilla war and competent military with full airforce etc.
It's not reality of a true modern full invasion occurs(which is doubtful)
It's a major nation with a huge advantage in air superiority, naval superiority , and shear military might  facing a small border countries forces, and once run over them.a general populace of mixed Russian/Ukrainian.
Most of the cough* Russian lead in troops will be likely be paid Chechnyans , (as it was stirring shit in donbass right?) the mix of families  Ukrainian to Russian is too great.

I spoke with my wifes cousin there, he said war? Who will we be fighting?ourselves? Or coworkers from.a couple years back? Or cousins that live in western Russia?
Noone wants that here.
Maybe we would fight chechycen mercenaries, but who knows?
He wasnt the least bit worried about any of it and hadnt heard that much about it.

Granted that might be different in western  Ukraine, but it would not matter.


I know I'm absolutely not rooting for war, and I know if there is a full scale one there it will absolutely be Ukrainian blood that will be the majority spilt.

Flippin muddy fields wont change squat about that. This isn't 1940.

Ask those along the northern route out of Kuwait a few decades back , about how this really  plays out in modern warfare in  anything but a video game.
Its over fundamentally in an hour.5 hrs at a stretch. No ground troops needed (other than occupying force later)

Im.sure you  have no military background, and that's fine,but don't wish for conflict on some daydream.of Ukrainian troops slaughtering Russian troops, it's insane  to think that would happen. 

Again I dint think Russia will invade,  if they do ,it might be skirmishes in donbass for effect.
If they choose to actually take ukraine. Then they will.period.


Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: John Gaunt on February 17, 2022, 11:26:53 PM
But, but, but, they did it too..........





Fathertime!

You’re beginning to sound like Moby now.

There is NO justification for murder.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Trenchcoat on February 18, 2022, 03:37:24 AM
"Moscow has said it could be "forced" to respond militarily if the US does not agree to its security demands"

Here it looks like our reason for Invasion is coming from Russia, similar to what I was saying they might do last night. Apparently Putin is going to oversee Russia's military exercises on the 19th. Whether that will mean war then or soon after who knows. Olympic closing ceremony is on the 20th. That Putin has carried on with these 'military exercises' through the Olympics when he could have chosen another time without Russia carrying on in the background makes me think even more that he is serious about invasion.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-europe-60428211
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Chelseaboy on February 18, 2022, 04:37:36 AM
You seem* with the hand clapping  to want a war ,and glee at the thought of Ukrainians killing Russians.
Its odd.

I dont think  that's how any of that would go down, *if they choose a full.scale invasion in modern warfare.
The slaughter would be Ukrainian troops.

Sam's are fundamentally useless in the big picture

Russian air superiority is in no way challenged in both taking out communications or key targets for troop support by those Sam's.
You think in any of the major engagement the USA/uk forces have been in the last several.decades the countries dint have equally advanced ground to air systems for defense? How'd that work out?.

The Ukrainian airforce would be grounded or if they choose to fight , shot down within an hour of altercations.

The tanks arnt going to be bothered by the weather. Who is going to stop them.on the roads?
They wont roll in until.they need to clean up and until.its safe*
They arnt used that way unless the air cover is complete.why?, the average lifespan of a tank crew after active combat agaisnt a true full force(air/sea) military?
It's minutes.
Good thing  for Putin Ukraine wont have that typical major power abilty.

This seems a day dream.of  yours of prepared Ukrainians in guerilla war and competent military with full airforce etc.
It's not reality of a true modern full invasion occurs(which is doubtful)
It's a major nation with a huge advantage in air superiority, naval superiority , and shear military might  facing a small border countries forces, and once run over them.a general populace of mixed Russian/Ukrainian.
Most of the cough* Russian lead in troops will be likely be paid Chechnyans , (as it was stirring shit in donbass right?) the mix of families  Ukrainian to Russian is too great.

I spoke with my wifes cousin there, he said war? Who will we be fighting?ourselves? Or coworkers from.a couple years back? Or cousins that live in western Russia?
Noone wants that here.
Maybe we would fight chechycen mercenaries, but who knows?
He wasnt the least bit worried about any of it and hadnt heard that much about it.

Granted that might be different in western  Ukraine, but it would not matter.


I know I'm absolutely not rooting for war, and I know if there is a full scale one there it will absolutely be Ukrainian blood that will be the majority spilt.

Flippin muddy fields wont change squat about that. This isn't 1940.

Ask those along the northern route out of Kuwait a few decades back , about how this really  plays out in modern warfare in  anything but a video game.
Its over fundamentally in an hour.5 hrs at a stretch. No ground troops needed (other than occupying force later)

Im.sure you  have no military background, and that's fine,but don't wish for conflict on some daydream.of Ukrainian troops slaughtering Russian troops, it's insane  to think that would happen. 

Again I dint think Russia will invade,  if they do ,it might be skirmishes in donbass for effect.
If they choose to actually take ukraine. Then they will.period.


I hope you're correct that Russia won't invade,and you may well be right...we'll see.




However,if they do,i see nothing odd about wanting Ukraine  to defeat the invaders.


That would require killing invading Russian military personnel yes ?


Or do you think if the Ukrainians stand there singing songs the Russians will turn round and go home ?


There is a misconception among many people,including you,that Ukraine has no possible chance against the mighty Russia..who couldn't even beat poorly armed fighters wearing sandals after nine years of trying ...somewhat later than 1940. :rolleyes:


"The small border country "Ukraine actually has the largest army in Europe...with 215,000 military personnel and they've been training for this for eight years with training provided by NATO.


As Ukraine has no Navy to speak of and a small Air Force i wonder what the largest Army in Europe has been training for ?


As for the SAM's you deride...well the Ukraine Air Force has lost many fighter-jets and Helicopters over Donbas....so many shot down by SAM's,that the Ukrainian President had to pull them out of the conflict there.


Additionally one third of a population of 40 million volunteered to train in guerilla warfare....that's a lot of people.






These are a people who've had to endure 14.000 people being killed in Donbas over the last eight years because of Russian-backed separatists, and saw Russia take Crimea from them.


A huge seller out there has been toilet paper with a picture of Putin on it.


You think they're going to roll-over to him ?


These are not Iraq troops who had no heart for a fight and just surrendered.


If Russia invades they may well take Ukraine..let's see if they can hold it.


If they don't hold Ukraine that will mean they've been defeated..just like they were in Afghanistan.


By the way i do have a military background..i was in the Fleet Air Arm with F-4's based at RAF Leuchars.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Chelseaboy on February 18, 2022, 04:51:53 AM
"Moscow has said it could be "forced" to respond militarily if the US does not agree to its security demands"

Here it looks like our reason for Invasion is coming from Russia, similar to what I was saying they might do last night. Apparently Putin is going to oversee Russia's military exercises on the 19th. Whether that will mean war then or soon after who knows. Olympic closing ceremony is on the 20th. That Putin has carried on with these 'military exercises' through the Olympics when he could have chosen another time without Russia carrying on in the background makes me think even more that he is serious about invasion.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-europe-60428211 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-europe-60428211)


The Russian Ambassador to the EU  Vladimir Chizhov said a couple of days ago that the Belarus exercises will end on the 20th February and the Russian military forces in Belarus will return to their bases on, or shortly after, that date.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: fathertime on February 18, 2022, 04:58:33 AM

It hasn't..it's thawing...ripe for a slaughter of Russian tanks and troops stuck in deep mud. :clapping:

...if russia was actually planning on invading...they would have already done it months ago with the element of surprise on their side.  They wouldn't wait until the situation became more difficult.     I don't believe Russia can afford to get involved in a military quagmire with little upside.  While this non-story continues to create headlines, I wonder what other stories are being largely ignored.  Nord Stream 2 seems to be moving along, China's belt and road is relentlessly moving forward.... all the while what great project are we in the US undertaking?

Fathertime! 


Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Chelseaboy on February 18, 2022, 05:20:47 AM
...if russia was actually planning on invading...they would have already done it months ago with the element of surprise on their side.  They wouldn't wait until the situation became more difficult.     I don't believe Russia can afford to get involved in a military quagmire with little upside.  While this non-story continues to create headlines, I wonder what other stories are being largely ignored.  Nord Stream 2 seems to be moving along, China's belt and road is relentlessly moving forward.... all the while what great project are we in the US undertaking?

Fathertime!


I agree with you..there is no logic in waiting until the country you plan to invade has been bringing in more arms to defend itself with.


Putin is many things but he isn't a fool.


The reason Putin took Crimea so easily is because he used the element of surprise.and moved quickly.


Why change what works ?
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Jumper1 on February 18, 2022, 07:26:41 AM

I hope you're correct that Russia won't invade,and you may well be right...we'll see.




However,if they do,i see nothing odd about wanting Ukraine  to defeat the invaders.


That would require killing invading Russian military personnel yes ?


Or do you think if the Ukrainians stand there singing songs the Russians will turn round and go home ?


There is a misconception among many people,including you,that Ukraine has no possible chance against the mighty Russia..who couldn't even beat poorly armed fighters wearing sandals after nine years of trying ...somewhat later than 1940. :rolleyes:


"The small border country "Ukraine actually has the largest army in Europe...with 215,000 military personnel and they've been training for this for eight years with training provided by NATO.


As Ukraine has no Navy to speak of and a small Air Force i wonder what the largest Army in Europe has been training for ?


As for the SAM's you deride...well the Ukraine Air Force has lost many fighter-jets and Helicopters over Donbas....so many shot down by SAM's,that the Ukrainian President had to pull them out of the conflict there.


Additionally one third of a population of 40 million volunteered to train in guerilla warfare....that's a lot of people.






These are a people who've had to endure 14.000 people being killed in Donbas over the last eight years because of Russian-backed separatists, and saw Russia take Crimea from them.


A huge seller out there has been toilet paper with a picture of Putin on it.


You think they're going to roll-over to him ?


These are not Iraq troops who had no heart for a fight and just surrendered.


If Russia invades they may well take Ukraine..let's see if they can hold it.


If they don't hold Ukraine that will mean they've been defeated..just like they were in Afghanistan.


By the way i do have a military background..i was in the Fleet Air Arm with F-4's based at RAF Leuchars.

Iraqi forces were the.4th largest in the world had  actively fought Iran for a decade were better prepared,and  far better equipped.

I'm not condoning invasion, I'm not hoping for one,  nor am I saying Ukraine hasn't prepared for this.

I am saying  oring thaw weather ,muddy fields would not  play a huge part ,and I am.saying with no equivalent air force they stand zero chance against a full.scale invasion (if one occured)
Yes Ukrainian air force lost to surface to air in what wasnot an all out war,let that sink in. Has any other major military's air been defeated by Sam's? No. Snd those are not going to stop russias air force from.taking out communications and strategic targets.

Now the aspect of occupying a country  long term is completely different , and that is completely dependent on the ,resolve, sufferage, or apathy of the people governed, as has been proven throughout history.

As far as Ukraine its been overrun and held long term  by a long list of invaders.
Do I think.if the populace entirely rejected russian governance  , they could oust them long term? Certainly.
But I'm not sure that's a realistic view of the population
This is a different scenario ,there are separatist ,it's not entirely unified ,its fundamentally the same people with many families and friends across borders.
There are of course a million factors,but the fact remains the Ukrainian government that the people have accepted over the last decades was always tied to the hip to Russia.This does play into it a lot.

I absolutely feel.ukraine should be
 Independent. I have relatives there.






Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Chelseaboy on February 18, 2022, 08:39:58 AM
A loud siren going off in Donetsk today,with a Russian-backed separatist leader telling residents to evacuate and go to Russia via buses.


Another Russian-backed separatist leader has told residents to evacuate Luhansk also.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Trenchcoat on February 18, 2022, 11:52:52 AM
A loud siren going off in Donetsk today,with a Russian-backed separatist leader telling residents to evacuate and go to Russia via buses.


Another Russian-backed separatist leader has told residents to evacuate Luhansk also.

Then that sounds like something very big is about to go down CB. Looks like we are definitely on the very brink of invasion of Ukraine to me. Odds are Putin as an ex-KGB guy is taking up the C-in-C for it rather than merely just leading the military training - there is no real need for him to lead the overall training which I any case is just a bs excuse to assemble their invasion force under it seems. Doubt it will be long till we see it all go down in Ukraine by the sounds of it.

Next 24-48 hours or so crucial I would say.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Muzh on February 18, 2022, 02:00:18 PM
Bisen isn't a warrior and I believe he has ulterior motives. 



Yep. The cohesion of democratic countries. 8)
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Muzh on February 18, 2022, 02:38:58 PM
...if russia was actually planning on invading...they would have already done it months ago with the element of surprise on their side.  They wouldn't wait until the situation became more difficult.     I don't believe Russia can afford to get involved in a military quagmire with little upside.  While this non-story continues to create headlines, I wonder what other stories are being largely ignored.  Nord Stream 2 seems to be moving along, China's belt and road is relentlessly moving forward.... all the while what great project are we in the US undertaking?

Fathertime!


Remember Anzincourt? How a superior army got its ass whipped by lesser forces? Almost same conditions months ago.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Chelseaboy on February 18, 2022, 03:05:57 PM
Biden just said he believes Putin has decided to invade Ukraine...and will do so in the next few days.


OSCE says the number of Russian troops surrounding Ukraine is now between 170,000 and 190,000...the biggest build up of troops in Europe since the second World War.


Of course if Russia does invade it will show the World what liars Putin and the Russians are,as they've been saying they're not going to invade Ukraine .
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Patagonie on February 18, 2022, 04:16:55 PM
Biden just said he believes Putin has decided to invade Ukraine...and will do so in the next few days.


OSCE says the number of Russian troops surrounding Ukraine is now between 170,000 and 190,000...the biggest build up of troops in Europe since the second World War.


Of course if Russia does invade it will show the World what liars Putin and the Russians are,as they've been saying they're not going to invade Ukraine .
My count has always been 12 divisions (180000 men) since mid january.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: ML on February 18, 2022, 04:34:16 PM

Remember Anzincourt? How a superior army got its ass whipped by lesser forces? Almost same conditions months ago.

You mean Azincourt in French spelling or Agincourt in English spelling ?
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: John Gaunt on February 18, 2022, 04:46:24 PM
Haha.  Got you to go low by merely challenging you! You like fellow submissive I reckon.    Poor guy. 
Fathertime!
Pah. There’s no taking the moral high ground when you side with murderers and terrorists, fella.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Patagonie on February 19, 2022, 05:48:35 AM
You mean Azincourt in French spelling or Agincourt in English spelling ?
lol, yep Azincourt
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Chelseaboy on February 19, 2022, 08:20:12 AM
Can someone explain to me why Ukraine would launch an offensive against Donetsk and Luhansk now and why they would be firing missiles into Rostov ?


We also have the ludicrous claim that Ukraine planted a car bomb under the Donetsk pro-Russian separatist leaders car,which conveniently exploded while he wasn't in it  :rolleyes:



All this while they have 190,000 Russian troops on their border and the Russian Navy off their coastline.


Well you would wouldn't you  :rolleyes:


Maybe the poster who says whatever the West says is propaganda can explain the Ukraine reasons for doing this.?


To me it just seems mad Vlad and the pro-Russian separatists are creating false flags around the Donbas region,whilst citing genocide there, to justify the Russian invasion of Ukraine...as i predicted they would.


Of course Russia never comes out with lying propaganda do they ? :cluebat:
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: ML on February 19, 2022, 10:26:05 AM
Can someone explain to me why Ukraine would launch an offensive against Donetsk and Luhansk now and why they would be firing missiles into Rostov ?
Of course Russia never comes out with lying propaganda do they ?

Quite simple.  Just ask a Russian or Russian lover.
Ukraine is actively attacking Russia on many fronts.
Their reason for doing so is to provoke Russian counterattacks which will bring USA to the Ukrainian rescue. 
Doesn't matter that USA has said it will not intervene militarily.

Get up to date here and think with a clear head !!
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: ML on February 19, 2022, 10:35:02 AM
Of course Russia never comes out with lying propaganda do they ?

And they never cheat or do anything dishonorable either.
Just ask any of their Summer and Winter Olympic teams.

But they do have a very distinct advantage in that they do not care how anyone thinks about them.

Unlike the crybabies during Donald's time who wailed . . . Oh my, the rest of the world is thinking bad about USA !!  :-(

Imagine the audacity of asking the Europeans to pay their agreed upon amounts into NATO.  Totally rude and unacceptable.  Better to let USA taxpayers take up the slack, so that we will be liked (actually hated less).
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Muzh on February 19, 2022, 12:55:32 PM
You mean Azincourt in French spelling or Agincourt in English spelling ?

Comme ci, comme ça
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: fathertime on February 19, 2022, 03:11:09 PM
It seems that Zelensky wants answers.  I would suspect that NATO isn't really interested in having Ukraine as a part of their commitment. 
Zelensky is also demanding that the US say exactly what the sanctions will be for Russia should they invade.   I wonder if Zelensky is speaking from his own mouth, or the US has asked him to make the statements.   


Zelensky: Ukraine wants 'clear' time frame for NATO membership

Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky on Saturday asked NATO and the European Union (EU) for a firm and "honest" answer on his country's prospects for entry into the alliance at the Munich Security Conference.....
 http://news.yahoo.com/zelensky-ukraine-wants-clear-timeframe-162724254.html?fr=sycsrp_catchall   (http://news.yahoo.com/zelensky-ukraine-wants-clear-timeframe-162724254.html?fr=sycsrp_catchall)

Fathertime! 
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Grumpy on February 19, 2022, 04:03:58 PM
Photo Essay:  (no big words to gaagle)

http://www.theatlantic.com/photo/2022/02/photos-ukraine-soldiers-and-civilians-prepare-possible-invasion/622841/

Link posted to avoid copyright issues and pictures too large for this websites format.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Trenchcoat on February 19, 2022, 04:26:46 PM
It seems that Zelensky wants answers.  I would suspect that NATO isn't really interested in having Ukraine as a part of their commitment. 
Zelensky is also demanding that the US say exactly what the sanctions will be for Russia should they invade.   I wonder if Zelensky is speaking from his own mouth, or the US has asked him to make the statements.   


Zelensky: Ukraine wants 'clear' time frame for NATO membership

Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky on Saturday asked NATO and the European Union (EU) for a firm and "honest" answer on his country's prospects for entry into the alliance at the Munich Security Conference.....
 http://news.yahoo.com/zelensky-ukraine-wants-clear-timeframe-162724254.html?fr=sycsrp_catchall   (http://news.yahoo.com/zelensky-ukraine-wants-clear-timeframe-162724254.html?fr=sycsrp_catchall)

Fathertime!

We've given them tank busting equipment that looks like it's really just soil pipes with a fancy end on, lets hope for their sake it's not! The Germans have given them Nazi style helmets to re-enact some great WWII battles with, what more could they possibly want???

Well I think the joining the EU prospect has now gone, a definite non-starter. EU Members won't want an entanglement issue quite so close to their doorstep. The EU doesn't have the money to take them onboard with the UK leaving and then the virus. There's no way the EU is going to take on Ukraine with all its issues. Only possible way would be for the EU to totally rethink it's economic model, basically to just have a free trade zone and stop trying to pass money from here to there, to basically stop requiring countries to be and get up to a certain level of economic development. I think the only reason Zelensky is wanting into the EU is first to get some military protection since a war one is deemed a war on all and secondly to help out the sh*t state Ukraine's economy must now be getting into - think cost of conflict, virus impact and now blockaded ports and no flights.

I personally don't think EU member states will want a member that will embroil them all in war. A definite no go on that one.

NATO well that might be an easier one for Zelensky to aim for but I think he is right in NATO members not wanting a a country that will immediately plunge them into a warm Remembering of course some of these members are in Eastern Europe so they'll be on the forefront of it all being hammered hard quite likely. It would of course bring objection from Russia and god knows how they would react, WWIII maybe?

I think Zelensky is basically losing it now, he's freaking out as  war is imminent and he knows it's not looking at all good and is without anyone to really help him out.

It really does look that Russia is starting to manoeuvre in Eastern Ukraine for a reason for war by stating that Ukraine is causing genocide by shelling people's homes so they basically had to step in, of course :-\

It looks like Russia has quickly moved up forces to bring the invasion force to 150,000 to 190,000 or more.

Basically Putin has never acted in a trustworthy way, dissenters being thrown out of windows, poisoned, jailed, executed, Russian athletes doping, intervention in Syria to prop up a vicious tyrant, etc, etc. I don't think Putin's intention fir Ukraine is to walk away, not this time, he's got it in to invade, he doesn't care about the west just what he wants to do so he'll invade for sure and I reckon we are very close to that now. A but more noise about the 'genocide' in the Donbas to sound like there is a significant problem there then he'll go in. Likely within a day or so I reckon, I just get the impression it's really, really close now!
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Trenchcoat on February 19, 2022, 04:40:04 PM
BBC News - Ukraine: Russia plans biggest war in Europe since 1945 - Boris Johnson
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-60448162
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: ML on February 19, 2022, 04:47:40 PM
Ukrainian President Zelensky speaks at Munich Security Conference, February 19, 2022

"Ukraine is longing for peace. Europe is longing for peace. The world is saying it doesn’t want any war, while Russia is claiming she doesn’t want to intervene. Someone here is lying," Zelensky said, before receiving a standing ovation.

Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Muzh on February 19, 2022, 05:25:46 PM

I personally don't think EU member states will want a member that will embroil them all in war. A definite no go on that one.



Kinda late for the Baltic states and Poland.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: fathertime on February 19, 2022, 06:17:40 PM
   

I think Zelensky is basically losing it now, he's freaking out as  war is imminent and he knows it's not looking at all good and is without anyone to really help him out.

  I don't think Putin's intention fir Ukraine is to walk away, not this time, he's got it in to invade, he doesn't care about the west just what he wants to do so he'll invade for sure and I reckon we are very close to that now. A but more noise about the 'genocide' in the Donbas to sound like there is a significant problem there then he'll go in. Likely within a day or so I reckon, I just get the impression it's really, really close now!

Despite what Biden is saying publicly, I think the US would be good with Russia taking a little bite out of Ukraine....just so long as it leads to sanctions and termination of the Nord stream 2.   With all the 'imminent' rhetoric coming from the US, my belief is we are trying to bait Putin.  When he doesn't invade it will be spun that we stared Russia/Putin down.  That would be our false consolation instead of shutting down the pipeline.
Perhaps seeing the phoniness of the US, nations like Brazil are standing with Russia. 

Fathertime!   

Fathertime! 
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: GQBlues on February 19, 2022, 06:20:54 PM
I feel incredibly bad for these Ukrainians. Joe Biden and his party NEED this war very badly. Both for military industry push and for their dying political state. A proxy war this magnitude, especially against the US's longtime boogeyman - Russia - will undoubtedly swing Americans attitude and sentiment this coming midterm election. Nothing like sacrificing Ukrainian blood, as far as the US is concerned, to boost ratings Biden/Harris desperately needs.

The US had now gone from 'we will not intervene and will direly sanction Russian if they attack - to "we will act swiftly and decisively if Russia attacked!". Now why exactly should 'we' be front and center in the silly conflict, is utterly beyond silly to me.


So next time you see a US serviceman, think twice before you thank them, make no mistake about this, they had become nothing more than just fucking paid mercenaries/murderers. They're not 'serving our nation', or 'protection our homeland'. Not thousands of miles from our border. They're being used as sacrificial pawns once again to advance our mindless political agendas.

Another thing I found mystifying in the Munich conference was, why the heck in the midst of all this, is Zelensky asking for 'significant economic assistance' from the US? WHAT-THE-FUCK-IS-THAT-ABOUT? What made the US a chief source of monies for Ukraine? Why the hell is the US automatically at the end of a carrot stick, and in a volatile time like this to boot?

Someone, maybe more than one, is getting played in a major way in this stupidity.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Jumper1 on February 19, 2022, 08:06:34 PM
Thank or dont thank whoever you want.

Not one has asked thanks.

Try to get a grip there, when someone joins any u.s. service, they are signing up to defend our country, or its interests abroad.
They have zero choice once in,so if an administration they joined under changes drastically, it's still their commander and chief .
It doesn't make them simply paid mercenaries just because u. s  foreign policy changes or sucks during their stint.
I think the usa makes horrid foreign policy choices..and should concentrate on issues internally
So i know and understand you'll have 486 justifications for that sentiment , , but
Flock  right off with that bs.

Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Jumper1 on February 19, 2022, 08:13:00 PM
As far as why money is brought up in regards to the* usa in Ukraine*, you really already know.
There is a standing pres (past vp) who had his son in a cushy job there with no skills, you had millions missing in various funds siphoned off and  passed thru one of the countries best at laundering money.
Russian collusion at its finest.
Ukraine is just another suicide,nothing ties up.old loose ends like a war


Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Trenchcoat on February 20, 2022, 03:32:06 AM

Kinda late for the Baltic states and Poland.

All are NATO countries also and have NATO troops stationed there. Putin won't invade those countries as they have a sitting NATO troop presence already there. The line has been drawn in the sand for those countries at their border. If Putin attacked them it would being in both NATO and the whole if the EU, essentially WWIII. That's a more difficult one for Putin as Britain, France & the US have nuclear weapons and NATO. & the EU much stronger military, so how would that play out for Putin? He doesn't know that even if he wins he wouldn't get nuked and lose, and at which point?

Putin will be familiar with the old Iron Curtain concept so I think he'll see a new Iron Curtain there. I think odds are he'll attack other weak countries like Georgia that are far easier to pick off and retake the Stans one way or another. For him that will be greater Russia back together again. The Eastern Bloc was always kind of an addition and previous to the Soviet Union not a part of Russia so I don't think he'll be too bothered about them.

Think also he'll have his work cut out stationing troops in those newly taken over countries and depending on how he goes about it keeping insurgencies and terrorism down so I don't think he'll have his hands free to worry about the former Eastern Bloc countries by that stage.

Winter Olympics end today so now just the wait and see. The end of the Olympics was thought by one Ukrainian General to be the likely moment, so tonight, tommorow night, who knows. Best scenario for us if they do invade is that any Puppet government that comes forward will have a degree of autonomy and not just be an extension of Russian government/territory. So Ukraine would be a bit like Belarus and with a bit of luck we'll still get the visa free situation.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: fathertime on February 20, 2022, 05:40:52 AM

Putin will be familiar with the old Iron Curtain concept so I think he'll see a new Iron Curtain there. I think odds are he'll attack other weak countries like Georgia that are far easier to pick off and retake the Stans one way or another. For him that will be greater Russia back together again. The Eastern Bloc was always kind of an addition and previous to the Soviet Union not a part of Russia so I don't think he'll be too bothered about them.
Another morning I wake up to no attack of Ukraine, the Stans, Georgia, etc....despite the US attempted agitation and involvement in a region we don't belong in.   I don't really think Russia needs to do any attacking.  If they stay their course, they are about to do well for themselves with their new pipeline. 

All that said, if they were facing sanctions, loss of pipeline, and financial war...well they may decide their best course is to go big and take all of Ukraine and it's resources.  Accept the consequences, align with their friend partners and write off the west.   As unjust as it is, the vast majority of Americans don't know/care about Ukraine, for most the nation is merely a pawn or a buzzword (If that) and the people in Ukraine would pay dearly for a little advancement on the chessboard.  People here for obvious reasons are far more attached to the situation, and rightfully so. 

When nations such as China/Russia start to make business headway in the world, the US is right there to try to thwart them.  With China we suddenly 'care' a great deal about ethnic minorities in their country.  My belief is this is all coming down the dollars/yuan/rubles.    We in the US haven't developed our own industries adequately and may no longer have the capacity to, so sticking sticks in the tires of other nations is our go to move recently.  Provoking conflict seems to be our preferred method of advancement....just so long as its other nations young people who are on the front line.   Meanwhile our young people are free to 'party', smoke dope, pose on instragram, and be tough guys in the rap culture! 

(http://image.freepik.com/free-photo/man-in-rapper-pose_1187-3375.jpg)

Fathertime! 
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Chelseaboy on February 20, 2022, 07:19:21 AM
Whilst i agree with a lot of your post...it's Russia who's doing all the provoking with all their miltary surrounding the Ukraine border.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Sailor291 on February 20, 2022, 08:21:59 AM
I feel incredibly bad for these Ukrainians. Joe Biden and his party NEED this war very badly. Both for military industry push and for their dying political state. A proxy war this magnitude, especially against the US's longtime boogeyman - Russia - will undoubtedly swing Americans attitude and sentiment this coming midterm election. Nothing like sacrificing Ukrainian blood, as far as the US is concerned, to boost ratings Biden/Harris desperately needs.

The US had now gone from 'we will not intervene and will direly sanction Russian if they attack - to "we will act swiftly and decisively if Russia attacked!". Now why exactly should 'we' be front and center in the silly conflict, is utterly beyond silly to me.


So next time you see a US serviceman, think twice before you thank them, make no mistake about this, they had become nothing more than just fucking paid mercenaries/murderers. They're not 'serving our nation', or 'protection our homeland'. Not thousands of miles from our border. They're being used as sacrificial pawns once again to advance our mindless political agendas.

Another thing I found mystifying in the Munich conference was, why the heck in the midst of all this, is Zelensky asking for 'significant economic assistance' from the US? WHAT-THE-FUCK-IS-THAT-ABOUT? What made the US a chief source of monies for Ukraine? Why the hell is the US automatically at the end of a carrot stick, and in a volatile time like this to boot?

Someone, maybe more than one, is getting played in a major way in this stupidity.

As someone that spent over 20 years proudly serving the United States Navy, I find your comments particularly ignorant and insulting.  I despise Sleepy Joe, but take great offense at you!!
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: GQBlues on February 20, 2022, 10:16:33 AM
As someone that spent over 20 years proudly serving the United States Navy, I find your comments particularly ignorant and insulting.  I despise Sleepy Joe, but take great offense at you!!

Ignorant?!? Remember arming the KLA, a group we classified as terrorists, so they could attack the Serbs, and when fighting breaks out, WE bombed Serbia’s civilians. For what? Break out Yugoslavia so NATO can advance. Who the heck do you think is aiding Saudi and Al Qaeda in Yemen? Al Qaeda ferchrissakes! Same phucking group behind 911. You know which group is also the recipients of US/ western arms being imported to Ukraine? The Azov militants.  Freaking neo-nazi group.

Biden is but a small part of the recent US murderous global excursion. You think my statement is offensive, have you ever considered what Libyans, Iraqis, afghans, Serbians et al think? Or such realities doesn’t bother your sensibilities much?

http://youtu.be/zSbFSMMI1UI

Yet, here we are again, front and center in stoking another unnecessary military engagement in matters that have absolutely no threat to us, yet making it all about us once more. At the expense of whose lives all over again?

You served for 20 years and you actually believe our global military excursions post WWII have all been for merit and honor?
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Trenchcoat on February 20, 2022, 10:48:52 AM
It's On!!!

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10532793/Secretary-State-Blinken-DoD-Chief-Austin-say-threat-Russian-invasion-deadly-serious.html

Apparently Putin has given the order to Invade now!

Russian troops have now received the order and are apparently finalising their first ground manoeuvres into Ukraine. Sounds like it will be any moment now, a matter of hours perhaps and they will cross they'll attack.

As far as I see it, it will be missile and air attacks first, knock out the small Ukrainian airforce and gain air superiority right away. Also target what they can off Ukrainian troops and installations on the ground including power stations.

The Winter Olympic closing ceremony has taken place now so it's only a matter of time it looks before Russian forces engage. My guess is that the Russian Generals will have a time agreed to begin the attack from all sides at once.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: GQBlues on February 20, 2022, 11:07:50 AM
Quote from: joe the idiot
"If Russia decides to invade, that would also have consequences here at home. But the American people understand that defending democracy and liberty is never without cost. "I will not pretend this will be painless."

The consequential reality here at home is, this idiot have no clue how to reverse the effects of nearly 8% inflation, record breaking crime, his dying political platform, numerous lawsuits being filed on student debts, etc.

Ukraine is a sacrificial token to serve his idiotic purposes. Who the fuck voted for this idiot!
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: John Gaunt on February 20, 2022, 12:37:14 PM
It's On!!!

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10532793/Secretary-State-Blinken-DoD-Chief-Austin-say-threat-Russian-invasion-deadly-serious.html

Apparently Putin has given the order to Invade now!

Russian troops have now received the order and are apparently finalising their first ground manoeuvres into Ukraine. Sounds like it will be any moment now, a matter of hours perhaps and they will cross they'll attack.

As far as I see it, it will be missile and air attacks first, knock out the small Ukrainian airforce and gain air superiority right away. Also target what they can off Ukrainian troops and installations on the ground including power stations.

The Winter Olympic closing ceremony has taken place now so it's only a matter of time it looks before Russian forces engage. My guess is that the Russian Generals will have a time agreed to begin the attack from all sides at once.
So says General Trench, the basement warrior.
From the Daily Mail so it must be true.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: fathertime on February 20, 2022, 03:06:29 PM
Ted Cruz what a political hack, war lover, and idiot.    I don't at all mind him calling out Bisen, but at least make some sense in making the argument.

How does his logic make sense here?   If Putin had taken Ukraine it would also be in possession of the pipelines and would not have needed nordstream 2.  , Russia probably would have made the pipelines a high priority so even if Ukraine destroyed some of it, they could have rebuilt pretty quick if they wanted to.  Numbnut cruz also fails to mention that Russian gas won't be bought in Europe regardless of which pipeline were used if he were to invade Ukraine.    Russia belt Nordsteam 2 to avoid the 2 billion in transit fees paid to Ukraine. They probably also don't want the US/Ukraine to hold their gas hostage during unrelated negotiations.   I can't blame them for wanting to have complete control over their natural resources.   

Cruz: Europe on 'verge of war' due to 'fecklessness of Joe Biden'

"The reason he's building the pipeline is that it skips Ukraine. It goes right around Ukraine. Why? Because the real insurance that Ukraine had against invasion is that Putin has to take his energy as natural gas in pipelines that go through Ukraine. Once he builds Nord Stream 2, he no longer has to worry about those pipelines," Cruz said
 http://www.yahoo.com/news/cruz-europe-apos-verge-war-180718873.html   (http://www.yahoo.com/news/cruz-europe-apos-verge-war-180718873.html)

Fathertime! 
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Muzh on February 20, 2022, 03:40:36 PM
Ted Cruz what a political hack, war lover, and idiot.    I don't at all mind him calling out Bisen, but at least make some sense in making the argument.

How does his logic make sense here?   If Putin had taken Ukraine it would also be in possession of the pipelines and would not have needed nordstream 2.  , Russia probably would have made the pipelines a high priority so even if Ukraine destroyed some of it, they could have rebuilt pretty quick if they wanted to.  Numbnut cruz also fails to mention that Russian gas won't be bought in Europe regardless of which pipeline were used if he were to invade Ukraine.    Russia belt Nordsteam 2 to avoid the 2 billion in transit fees paid to Ukraine. They probably also don't want the US/Ukraine to hold their gas hostage during unrelated negotiations.   I can't blame them for wanting to have complete control over their natural resources.   

Cruz: Europe on 'verge of war' due to 'fecklessness of Joe Biden'

"The reason he's building the pipeline is that it skips Ukraine. It goes right around Ukraine. Why? Because the real insurance that Ukraine had against invasion is that Putin has to take his energy as natural gas in pipelines that go through Ukraine. Once he builds Nord Stream 2, he no longer has to worry about those pipelines," Cruz said
 http://www.yahoo.com/news/cruz-europe-apos-verge-war-180718873.html   (http://www.yahoo.com/news/cruz-europe-apos-verge-war-180718873.html)

Fathertime!


Didn't you know that forcing Russia to ship its gas through Ukraine Hunter will get richer. Not to mention Kamala and Pelosi who have investments in what's-its-name gas company owned by Hunter.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Boethius on February 20, 2022, 04:25:00 PM
HAHA @Muzh. 


Ukrainians were siphoning a lot of Russian gas from the pipeline.  Kravchuk and Tymoshenko both became billionaires by stealing Russian gas.  That's the reason Russia decided to bypass Ukraine. 
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: ML on February 20, 2022, 06:23:44 PM
  Kravchuk and Tymoshenko both became billionaires by stealing Russian gas. 

I thought they only took enough to heat their homes.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Steven1971 on February 20, 2022, 06:53:19 PM
Interesting thread in the history of the Donbas.

http://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1495200579919958021.html
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Chelseaboy on February 21, 2022, 02:54:22 AM
It's On!!!

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10532793/Secretary-State-Blinken-DoD-Chief-Austin-say-threat-Russian-invasion-deadly-serious.html (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10532793/Secretary-State-Blinken-DoD-Chief-Austin-say-threat-Russian-invasion-deadly-serious.html)

Apparently Putin has given the order to Invade now!

Russian troops have now received the order and are apparently finalising their first ground manoeuvres into Ukraine. Sounds like it will be any moment now, a matter of hours perhaps and they will cross they'll attack.

As far as I see it, it will be missile and air attacks first, knock out the small Ukrainian airforce and gain air superiority right away. Also target what they can off Ukrainian troops and installations on the ground including power stations.

The Winter Olympic closing ceremony has taken place now so it's only a matter of time it looks before Russian forces engage. My guess is that the Russian Generals will have a time agreed to begin the attack from all sides at once.


Well it was with some trepidation i turned on the news this morning,expecting to see Ukraine in flames after General Trench's pronouncement with seeming relish that the invasion is on !!


Nope..no invasion..no Ukraine in flames....just seems Trench's hysteria took over again. :rolleyes:


The reality is that after a two hour phone call between Putin and Macron yesterday,they both agree that more dialogue over Ukraine is needed.



Of course the Russian-backed separatists in Donbas no doubt have other plans ,as it's clear what their agenda is by their recent dubious claims and actions.


Hopefully Putin won't get sucked in by them.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: BC on February 21, 2022, 05:52:41 AM
Saw that some of the folks that are being 'evaucated', aren't pleased by being sent to places far from home.

They are telling folks to stay instead.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Chelseaboy on February 21, 2022, 06:35:07 AM
No young men were evacuated anyway..they've been ordered by the Russian-backed separatists to stay and fight the fantasy incoming Ukraine attack in Donbas...while their young women have been sent over a 1000 km away to near Moscow.


A cynical person might say it's a convenient way to inject some more young and fertile women into an ageing Russian population...with their blokes stuck a 1000 km away.


The BBC filmed loads of young women,some with children, being piled into Buses...with some saying that with them being taken so far away it isn't looking short-term.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Trenchcoat on February 21, 2022, 08:13:11 AM
No young men were evacuated anyway..they've been ordered by the Russian-backed separatists to stay and fight the fantasy incoming Ukraine attack in Donbas...while their young women have been sent over a 1000 km away to near Moscow.


A cynical person might say it's a convenient way to inject some more young and fertile women into an ageing Russian population...with their blokes stuck a 1000 km away.


The BBC filmed loads of young women,some with children, being piled into Buses...with some saying that with them being taken so far away it isn't looking short-term.

I need to go where near Moscow??? :P
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Brillynt on February 21, 2022, 08:45:46 AM
No young men were evacuated anyway..they've been ordered by the Russian-backed separatists to stay and fight the fantasy incoming Ukraine attack in Donbas...while their young women have been sent over a 1000 km away to near Moscow.


A cynical person might say it's a convenient way to inject some more young and fertile women into an ageing Russian population...with their blokes stuck a 1000 km away.


The BBC filmed loads of young women,some with children, being piled into Buses...with some saying that with them being taken so far away it isn't looking short-term.

My wife is from Lugansk. Currently all private vehicles are being siezed. All men 18-64 are being rounded up and forcibly conscripted. All the marstruka's have been siezed  and are being used in the consription process. The only men not being conscripted are medical professionals, they have been given a special document to show in case they are being forcibly conscripted. This information is from my wife's family. Her daughter's father is a doctor(surgeon) and has told my wifes daughter about the document. They are telling all the women and children to evacuate to Russia, but to where no one really knows. Some are evacuating, but most are not willing to go without their husbands and fathers. My wife says, how is a woman with small children going to survive away from home without their husband to provide and protect them.

This has my wife and her family stressed to the max. All the delivery of goods will soon come to a standstill due to the conscriptions. They are currently going to the market daily to buy needed goods as they expect it to run out of supplies soon.

They are having intermittent internet and electrical outages for the last few days.  Natural gas line fires have been shown on the local tv to prove that the Ukrainians are coming, the Ukrainians are coming.

The amount of propaganda is just insane at the moment.

I am fortunate in that my wife returned last week before all this craziness kicked off. I have no idea what I would do if she was stuck there now.
The wife is feeling guilty that she is safe and her family is dealing with all the insanity.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: ML on February 21, 2022, 08:53:28 AM
My wife is from Lugansk. Currently all private vehicles are being siezed. All men 18-64 are being rounded up and forcibly conscripted. All the marstruka's have been siezed  and are being used in the consription process. The only men not being conscripted are medical professionals, they have been given a special document to show in case they are being forcibly conscripted. This information is from my wife's family. Her daughters father is a doctor(surgeon) and has told my wifes daughter about the document. They are telling all the women and children to evacuate to Russia, but to where no one really knows. Some are evacuating but most are not willing to go without their husbands and fathers. My wife says how is a woman with small children going to survive away from home without their husband to provide and protect them.

This has my wife and her family stressed to the max. All the delivery of goods will soon come to a standstill due to the conscriptions. They are currently going to the market daily to buy needed goods as they expect it to run out of supplies soon.

They are having intermittent internet and electrical outages for the last few days.  Natural gas line fires have been shown on the local tv to prove that the Ukrainians are coming, the Ukrainians are coming.

The amount of propaganda is just insane at the moment.

I am fortunate in that my wife returned last week before all this craziness kicked off. I have no idea what I would do if she was stuck there now.
The wife is feeling guilty that she is safe and her family is dealing with all the insanity.

WOW this is a very informative first hand account.
Thanks for posting.
I had heard that the forced bussing was only for TV consumption and that  the people were actually taken back into their home towns later.
They also put some children from orphanages on busses for TV, but later took them back.
Any info on these specific items from your wife's family?
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Brillynt on February 21, 2022, 09:40:31 AM
WOW this is a very informative first hand account.
Thanks for posting.
I had heard that the forced bussing was only for TV consumption and that  the people were actually taken back into their home towns later.
They also put some children from orphanages on busses for TV, but later took them back.
Any info on these specific items from your wife's family?

I talked to the wife. She says the pictures are real, the women are panicing and are leaving Lugansk with their children. She is not sure about the orphanages.

She is watching the RU news and political shows, and currently Putin is deciding if they will move into the Donbass area "For the protection of Russian people". One thing to remember, shortly after the 2014 hostilities, Putin offered Russian passports to those who lived in the Donbass area, so that would allow him to say they are Russian. Supposedly a decision will be made by tomorrow evening.

Guess we will see what happens. Never thought I would have to watch something like this, and have to worry about family members being in the crosshairs.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: GQBlues on February 21, 2022, 10:26:27 AM
Zelensky, paraphrased, to the US:

~"...If you know exactly, with your intelligence that you keep announcing, that Russia is definitely invading Ukraine in a specific day, why do you not sanction Russia now? What are you waiting for? It doesn't do Ukraine any good for you to sanction Russia AFTER they invade Ukraine!..."~

Dunno, IMHO, the dude has a point! Good luck making any sense with the US liberals' president, My Zelensky. Maybe call him anytime after 4 PM when he wakes up from his daily naps.

Kamala Harris (pp), "...if Russia invades Ukraine, Americans must be prepared that the price of gas will go up!..." WOW! Thank good ness for that warning, your excellency! You mean more than the 150% increase it is already at since you and napping Joe took over?
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Trenchcoat on February 21, 2022, 11:03:54 AM
I talked to the wife. She says the pictures are real, the women are panicing and are leaving Lugansk with their children. She is not sure about the orphanages.

She is watching the RU news and political shows, and currently Putin is deciding if they will move into the Donbass area "For the protection of Russian people". One thing to remember, shortly after the 2014 hostilities, Putin offered Russian passports to those who lived in the Donbass area, so that would allow him to say they are Russian. Supposedly a decision will be made by tomorrow evening.

Guess we will see what happens. Never thought I would have to watch something like this, and have to worry about family members being in the crosshairs.

Yep and here is Putin's excuse to invade Ukraine. First move into Donbass to have 'save' the now Russian people there against the aggression and genocide of Ukraine. From there he will probably pound the living cr*p out of the bulk of the Ukrainian Army that is in Eastern Ukraine through missile attacks and God knows what. That will leave the rest of Ukraine, Kyiv etc vulnerable IF he chooses to invade the rest of Ukraine. There may be a chance that he doesn't. The rest of the encirclement might just be there to stop Ukraine counter attacking into Russian territory, keep the pressure on and have the option to invade if they decide to. Once the Ukrainian Army is smashed in the East good and proper there will be little left to defend Ukraine with, that will likely become apparent to those in the Ukrainian establishment and they will likely sue for peace. The Russian puppets will come forward and be chosen and Russia will have what it wants. That's a possible scenario I think, that or Russia will wind up the Donbass excuse to totally invade Ukraine.

That the Donbass separatists are see fit to conscript nearly all the men, possibly at gun point and their family possibly held as ransom well I don't think they would be doing that if Russia was not about to invade. All about getting the situation there wound up enough to give the Russians an excuse to move in. What are the odds these men will be used as cannon fodder in a new onslaught on the Ukrainian front lines to demonstrate heightened tensions necessary for Russian involvement.

Terrible times.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Chelseaboy on February 21, 2022, 11:12:14 AM
The women and children being used as hostages to make the men in the Donbas region fight with Ukraine is something i hadn't considered and is a good point....and yes for sure those men will be stuck in the front-line as cannon fodder if so.


Putin is making an announcement to the Russian people on state TV tonight.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Trenchcoat on February 21, 2022, 11:45:42 AM
The women and children being used as hostages to make the men in the Donbas region fight against Ukraine is something i hadn't considered and is a good point....and yes for sure those men will be stuck in the front-line as cannon fodder if so.


Putin is making an announcement to the Russian people on state TV tonight.

It's probably this:

http://news.sky.com/story/ukraine-crisis-vladimir-putin-set-to-decide-whether-to-recognise-separatist-regions-in-ukraine-as-independent-12548002

All starting to play out now. He'll recognise them as independent state/country. They'll ask him to protect them again Ukrainian aggression. He'll move in and pound the hell out of the Ukrainian Army, etc, etc...
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Chelseaboy on February 21, 2022, 12:21:33 PM
Putin has recognized the independence of Donetsk and Luhansk regions
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Chelseaboy on February 21, 2022, 02:35:35 PM
Putin has just ordered peacekeeping moves in Eastern Ukraine.


Looks like the invasion of Ukraine is starting. :(
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Trenchcoat on February 21, 2022, 03:01:20 PM
Putin has just ordered peacekeeping moves in Eastern Ukraine.


Looks like the invasion of Ukraine is starting. :(

That's it then, the invasion has begun!

http://news.sky.com/story/ukraine-live-updates-satellite-images-show-new-russia-deployments-as-biden-and-putin-summit-mooted-12541713

Looks like General Trench here wasn't too far off with my prediction of Invasion just hours away yesterday ;D
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Chelseaboy on February 21, 2022, 03:14:18 PM
I don't see Ukraine in flames as you predicted...with missiles being launched to obliterate the Ukraine army.


No pounding of Kiev occurring or Naval bombardment or air strikes.


I've seen a video purporting to be Russian troops arriving in Eastern Ukraine in....Buses.


It's actually working out as i predicted with Putin using a pretext to send troops into Eastern Ukraine


I bet they're not happy all the local hotties have been sent elsewhere  :)
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Trenchcoat on February 21, 2022, 05:01:34 PM
I don't see Ukraine in flames as you predicted...with missiles being launched to obliterate the Ukraine army.


No pounding of Kiev occurring or Naval bombardment or air strikes.


I've seen a video purporting to be Russian troops arriving in Eastern Ukraine in....Buses.


It's actually working out as i predicted with Putin using a pretext to send troops into Eastern Ukraine


I bet they're not happy all the local hotties have been sent elsewhere  :)

Not yet but this is the start of Russia's invasion. Just wait until the Russian cruise missiles start flying at Ukraine's army in the East the pretext probably being to quell the Ukrainian aggression or something like that. After that probably some more bs by Russia to move into Ukraine, onto Kiev.

I don't think I ever discounted the Donbass as a false flag event. I believe I even accepted that, that was one plausible scenario too. Though you'd pointedly make the case and it seems that you were right in doing so CB.

I'm not surprised Russia is already moving in troops, Putin seems in a hurry now to get underway on all of this and get what he wants.

Now just a matter of waiting for the next piece of bs from Putin as to why he needs to hammer Ukraine's army. I wonder how long we will have to wait for that one?
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Trenchcoat on February 21, 2022, 05:17:14 PM
Apparently sanctions are to be announced later today against Russia by the UK, probably the US & EU also:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-60472639.amp

Could possibly see visas to Russia go or that might be left until a full invasion of Ukraine occurs.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Chelseaboy on February 21, 2022, 05:25:26 PM
The Ukrainian President has just said that Ukraine isn't giving anything away,despite Putins statement , and that Putin can  basically do one


I found out yesterday that Ukraine received  Drones from Turkey that are basically Russian Tank busters with an excellent track record against them.


Boris said this evening we're looking to send more weapons to Ukraine.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Davo on February 21, 2022, 06:46:40 PM
American intelligence has just announced that Putin’s first objective with his “peace keeping” mission to the Donbass, is to supply new smart phones, web cams and improve internet access to all attractive women..... Single mothers will be given industrial strength protective phone cases to combat the spike in clumsy and careless children breaking their mammas camera...... Owning a phone without Skype or Whatsapp installed will now be a criminal offence 😜
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: fathertime on February 21, 2022, 06:49:38 PM
General Trenchcoat! 

Looks like some of what you said may become reality.  I don't see a real shooting war just yet though.  I don't envision Russia allowing itself to get involved in such a quagmire.  I could see the two regions of Donetsk and Luhansk becoming independent though.  If Ukraine tries to resist that from happening, I can see Russia throwing everything at them with overwhelming force.   

Let's see what Bisen and Company can do at their little summit.  By Putin being so aggressive it would seem that now everybody has something to lose, verses it being only a lose situation for Russia.  Perhaps Putin's thinking is, Ukraine can attempt to join the EU or NATO but they are going to lose some of their country in making this attempt.

I do wonder how the constant use of sanctions and threats against the Russian Nordstream 2 has played into Russia's thinking.  Since the US has been so miserable with China they now become close with Russia, which they may feel gives them additional latitude to take more aggressive steps.   I see the US winning big.   The conflict could provide the wedge preventing Russia from providing gas to Europe. The US would be delighted to 'help' out there! 

Fathertime! 
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Trenchcoat on February 21, 2022, 11:16:47 PM
The Ukrainian President has just said that Ukraine isn't giving anything away,despite Putins statement , and that Putin can  basically do one


I found out yesterday that Ukraine received  Drones from Turkey that are basically Russian Tank busters with an excellent track record against them.


Boris said this evening we're looking to send more weapons to Ukraine.

I think unless they get some real heavy intercept missile capability to stop Russia's cruise missiles, etc then a lit of that stuff won't be making a difference in the right area and Ukraine's forces will be way too vulnerable as a result.

That's no doubt sone serious hardware that they need to do that. Possibly the UK etc could do a kind of Lend-Lease program like the US did with the UK during WWII. It really needs some big SAM installations or mobile SAM intercept missile gear to take out those missiles and likely a lot of them. Without that the Russians will just rain missiles down upon Ukraine's army and finish them off within minutes as I see it.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Chelseaboy on February 22, 2022, 01:16:41 AM
The invasion has been confirmed by Reuters.


Russian Tanks and Armoured Personnel Carriers have been seen entering the outskirts of Donetsk.


The Ukraine Ambassador to the UK, when asked what additional military help is needed in Ukraine, said they have enough anti-Tank weaponry to deal with Russia's Tanks,but weaponry to deal with Russia's air and naval superiority is needed.


Those on here who said Russia wouldn't invade Ukraine were clearly VERY wrong.


Putin and every Russian politician and diplomat asked about a potential invasion of Ukraine "We will not be invading Ukraine "


Russia then invades Ukraine.


What an untrustworthy nation Russia is.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: John Gaunt on February 22, 2022, 03:00:28 AM
The invasion has been confirmed by Reuters.


Russian Tanks and Armoured Personnel Carriers have been seen entering the outskirts of Donetsk.


The Ukraine Ambassador to the UK, when asked what additional military help is needed in Ukraine, said they have enough anti-Tank weaponry to deal with Russia's Tanks,but weaponry to deal with Russia's air and naval superiority is needed.


Those on here who said Russia wouldn't invade Ukraine were clearly VERY wrong.


Putin and every Russian politician and diplomat asked about a potential invasion of Ukraine "We will not be invading Ukraine "


Russia then invades Ukraine.


What an untrustworthy nation Russia is.
I wouldn’t call it an invasion yet.
They’ve just formalized their occupation of the illegal breakaway territories which they were doing covertly since 2014.
If they now move to expand their occupation to the whole of Donbas then I would call it an invasion.
But untrustworthy? Most definitely, Putin most certainly has a few screws lose.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Trenchcoat on February 22, 2022, 04:31:00 AM
The invasion has been confirmed by Reuters.


Russian Tanks and Armoured Personnel Carriers have been seen entering the outskirts of Donetsk.


The Ukraine Ambassador to the UK, when asked what additional military help is needed in Ukraine, said they have enough anti-Tank weaponry to deal with Russia's Tanks,but weaponry to deal with Russia's air and naval superiority is needed.


Those on here who said Russia wouldn't invade Ukraine were clearly VERY wrong.


Putin and every Russian politician and diplomat asked about a potential invasion of Ukraine "We will not be invading Ukraine "


Russia then invades Ukraine.


What an untrustworthy nation Russia is.

Yep there is definitely egg that some posters will be wiping off face on here today :D

I wonder if Ukraine will now start calling up more conscripts now that the separatists have done so in Donbas & Luhansk. Some men Ukraine apparently already conscripts in but recently women have been asked to sign a conscript register for 'possible' conscription:

http://www.military.com/daily-news/2021/12/27/ukraine-requires-women-register-military-conscription-russia-threat-looms.html/amp

As usual there are the get outs of being a student and for women being pregnant, children. I kind of wonder if it comes down to it how many would be called up or whether it's just a stunt to appease men and in reality none to few will be called up. In the west so called 'gender equality' and then bullsh*t is what we are used to. Ukraine is apparently more patriarchal so I am surprised they are even touting female conscription around.

I'm going to take a guess on this one that what are the chances that very few females will be conscripted and those that are will just get light sentry duty in unimportant military warehouses, barrack locations, work in admin, etc and the very few that want to be on the front line is only by their choosing and will probably be lesbians wanting to make a name for themselves. My guess is that this female conscription lark is all a big ruse to assure Ukrainian men that Ukrainian women are being drafted with them when really it's all just for show.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Chelseaboy on February 22, 2022, 06:14:10 AM
Germany has announced they're now halting certification of Nord-stream 2,without which gas cannot flow through the pipeline.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: GQBlues on February 22, 2022, 06:51:30 AM
The invasion has been confirmed by Reuters.

The article was written in easy-to-read English.

http://www.reuters.com/world/us-casts-doubt-biden-summit-with-putin-eyes-new-sanctions-tuesday-official-2022-02-21/
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Patagonie on February 22, 2022, 07:14:08 AM
The biggest difference now is that they can put 12 Russian divisions if they want while before only put undercover military people plus special forces plus milicy.

The difference is huge, especially if you add the air, ECM, missiles, cyber attacks, and all the artillery stuff.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Chelseaboy on February 22, 2022, 07:20:27 AM
The article was written in easy-to-read English.

http://www.reuters.com/world/us-casts-doubt-biden-summit-with-putin-eyes-new-sanctions-tuesday-official-2022-02-21/ (http://www.reuters.com/world/us-casts-doubt-biden-summit-with-putin-eyes-new-sanctions-tuesday-official-2022-02-21/)


No surprise that Biden is bottling it.


All political parties in the UK have agreed it's a Russian  invasion of Ukraine  in Parliament today....and it's triggered  fresh sanctions from the UK


I wonder what Bidens's response would be if Mexico illegally annexed Texas, on behalf of the Mexican speakers there, and sent troops and Tanks in to hold it ?
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: fathertime on February 22, 2022, 07:45:18 AM

I wonder what Bidens's response would be if Mexico illegally annexed Texas, on behalf of the Mexican speakers there, and sent troops and Tanks in to hold it ?
Heck we probably have more spanish speaker than Mexico now.  We would be the ones sending the tanks over mexico's border to protect our spanish speakers. 

Fathertime! 
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Chelseaboy on February 22, 2022, 08:14:49 AM
The article was written in easy-to-read English.

http://www.reuters.com/world/us-casts-doubt-biden-summit-with-putin-eyes-new-sanctions-tuesday-official-2022-02-21/ (http://www.reuters.com/world/us-casts-doubt-biden-summit-with-putin-eyes-new-sanctions-tuesday-official-2022-02-21/)


The White House is now calling it "an invasion " after the UK announced it's sanctions against Russia.


The UK leads..others follow  :)
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Chelseaboy on February 22, 2022, 08:45:49 AM
I wouldn’t call it an invasion yet.
They’ve just formalized their occupation of the illegal breakaway territories which they were doing covertly since 2014.
If they now move to expand their occupation to the whole of Donbas then I would call it an invasion.
But untrustworthy? Most definitely, Putin most certainly has a few screws lose.


A country illegally annexing parts of another country,then sending in troops and Tanks to hold it is an invasion.


Since my post the UK and now the USA are also calling it an invasion.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: GQBlues on February 22, 2022, 09:08:56 AM
Heck we probably have more spanish speaker than Mexico now.  We would be the ones sending the tanks over mexico's border to protect our spanish speakers. 

Fathertime!


Well, for what its worth, you always must consider the source. Mexico, even under the best case scenario, have no military capabilities to be a threat to California, much less the US.


Now, just as during the Cuban Missile crisis, if Russia ever tries to sign an anti-USA military pact with Mexico - I guarantee you there will be no 'amassing hundreds of thousands of troops' along our southern border. The response will undoubtedly be absolute.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: GQBlues on February 22, 2022, 09:09:29 AM
Daily OSCE monitoring reports along the hot zone.


http://www.osce.org/ukraine-smm/reports (http://www.osce.org/ukraine-smm/reports)
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Chelseaboy on February 22, 2022, 09:13:57 AM
NATO has just called it a "further invasion " of Ukraine by Russia.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Chelseaboy on February 22, 2022, 09:15:51 AM
Putin has just asked the Russian assembly for permission to "use force abroad ".


But but it's all western propaganda/warmongering according to GQBlues....whilst NEVER questioning Putin's motives/actions. :rolleyes:


Yet i only see RUSSIAN Tanks and troops invading Ukraine.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: tfcrew on February 22, 2022, 09:17:54 AM
I wonder what Bidens's response would be if Mexico illegally annexed Texas...  and sent troops and Tanks in to hold it ?
Wasn't that his campaign promise? They did send troops of niñitos.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: tfcrew on February 22, 2022, 09:27:46 AM
A country illegally annexing parts of another country,then sending in troops and Tanks to hold it is an invasion.
Still hasn't really been announced as "annexed"... Calls it a peacekeeping force for a separatist state.
 Putin is very clever...can't say the same for the outfit we have.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Trenchcoat on February 22, 2022, 09:43:03 AM

The White House is now calling it "an invasion " after the UK announced it's sanctions against Russia.


The UK leads..others follow  :)

Shows clearly since Brexit that we have been storming ahead of the EU on Foreign Policy among many other areas and the EU can but follow on slowly following in our wake.

It's all happening on the EU's border but they seem to have little direction on the matter. Yet the UK which is further away and no longer a part of the EU is as you rightly say CB is leading on the Ukraine issue and has been for many weeks now including giving Ukraine NLAW's and military expertise.

Glad we have our own governing and direction back :)
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: John Gaunt on February 22, 2022, 09:46:33 AM
Shows clearly since Brexit that we have been storming ahead of the EU on Foreign Policy among many other areas and the EU can but follow on slowly following in our wake.

It's all happening on the EU's border but they seem to have little direction on the matter. Yet the UK which is further away and no longer a part of the EU is as you rightly say CB is leading on the Ukraine issue and has been for many weeks now including giving Ukraine NLAW's and military expertise.

Glad we have our own governing and direction back :)
All I’ll say is that I’m glad we haven’t got you giving anybody your ‘expertise’.

 :ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL:
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: fathertime on February 22, 2022, 10:24:42 AM
Now, just as during the Cuban Missile crisis, if Russia ever tries to sign an anti-USA military pact with Mexico - I guarantee you there will be no 'amassing hundreds of thousands of troops' along our southern border. The response will undoubtedly be absolute.
Our little monroe doctrine has pretty much held up for a long time.  There could come a point where people or nations start disrespecting it because we (The US) don't really have the right to dictate these sorts of things to other countries in our hemisphere. 

Fathertime!   
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: GQBlues on February 22, 2022, 11:03:47 AM
Our little monroe doctrine has pretty much held up for a long time.  There could come a point where people or nations start disrespecting it because we (The US) don't really have the right to dictate these sorts of things to other countries in our hemisphere. 

Fathertime!

...and if we keep doing what we're doing, we'll be giving China, if not Russia, good reason to ignore the doctrine.

Back in 2015, Obama, the Euro-Stooge of all people, warned against our further involvement in eastern Europe in the wake of the explosive event that followed the illegal coup of 2014. Let the Ukrainian affairs be solely a European affair. It is evident to all of us now, excursions in Ukraine does not serve our country well.

Quote from: Obama
Ukraine is a core Russian interest but not an American one, so Russia will always be able to maintain escalatory dominance there….The fact is that Ukraine, which is a non-Nato country, is going to be vulnerable to military domination by Russia no matter what we do...Ukraine isn’t a NATO country; they’re never going to be a NATO country–and yet we are treating Ukraine not only as if they are a NATO country, but as if we actually have the capability of protecting them from Russia…..This is an example of where we have to be very clear about what our core interests are and what we are willing to go to war for....[/size]Ukraine is a core Russian interest but not an American one, so Russia will always be able to maintain escalatory dominance there….

[/size]Let the Europeans, for a change that's been long overdue, handle European affair themselves, and without our involvement anymore.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Muzh on February 22, 2022, 11:12:39 AM
Let the Europeans, for a change that's been long overdue, handle European affair themselves, and without our involvement anymore.


Last time we tried that we ended with WWII. Remember "Peace in our times?"
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: GQBlues on February 22, 2022, 11:14:04 AM

Last time we tried that we ended with with WWII. Remember "Peace in our times?"


A mere case of damn if you do, and damn if you don't.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Muzh on February 22, 2022, 11:15:24 AM

A mere case of damn if you do, and damn if you don't.


Funny you mentioned that. Thomas Friedman wrote today a nice piece along the same lines. Sorta.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: GQBlues on February 22, 2022, 11:17:58 AM

Funny you mentioned that. Thomas Friedman wrote today a nice piece along the same lines. Sorta.

That's my take. We have more than enough problems here at home to be involved in everyone else's halfway around the globe. I feel bad for Ukraine, but certain even 'they' should know where their welfare lie at this time, and the best way forward.

Quote
Now, if there is somebody in this town that would claim that we would consider going to war with Russia over Crimea and eastern Ukraine, they should speak up and be very clear about it. The idea that talking tough or engaging in some military action that is tangential to that particular area is somehow going to influence the decision making of Russia or China is contrary to all the evidence we have seen over the last 50 years...

[/size]Pretty effective words, IMO. Too bad he's been pretty darn silent right now. Why?
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Trenchcoat on February 22, 2022, 12:00:21 PM
Putin/Russian Parliament authorizes use of force abroad:

http://news.sky.com/story/ukraine-crisis-putin-asks-legislators-for-permission-to-use-armed-forces-outside-russia-12548832

Russia removed it's diplomatic staff from Ukraine, surprised they hadn't already.

NATO believe a full scale attack of Ukraine is on the cards.

All coming into play now by the looks of it.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Trenchcoat on February 22, 2022, 02:54:06 PM
Putin says he doesn't intend to abide by Minsk Agreement:

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/russia-ukraine-war-putin-live-26295655

UK says all UK citizens should now leave Ukraine, obviously the now seemingly inevitable is now expected.

-------------------

Putin has apparently said that his intervention 'peacekeeping' covers the whole of the Donbas & Luhansk region (not just the city & separatist areas themselves). So here we may have it, Putin ready to go in & lay claim to the whole of these regions and thereby attacking the Ukrainian army there that stands in his way.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10537897/Ukraine-crisis-Invasion-begun-Sajid-Javid-declares.html
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: tfcrew on February 22, 2022, 05:34:17 PM
Joe Biden... imposing sanctions on the two largest Russian banks that already had sanctions placed on them after the Russian incursion in Crimea :rolleyes: I wish that he was as enthusiastic in taking care of his own country's business.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Chelseaboy on February 23, 2022, 03:22:59 AM
State of emergency now declared in Ukraine..except for the Donetsk and Luhansk regions...with people now having the right to bear arms.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Trenchcoat on February 23, 2022, 03:37:31 AM
Indeed CB, Australian PM reckons full out Invasion of the whole of Ukraine will happen within 24 hours:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/russia-ukraine-news-war-putin-invasion-b2021232.html

Ukraine has declared a state of emergency with a full out Invasion thought imminent. My guess is that both sides have now had time to remove Embassy staff, and give notice to citizens to leave respective countries, and everything is now in place for hostilities to commence.

Apparently Russia can only keep its troops on the Ukrainian border for so long because of harsh conditions. Although the winter seems to have been milder this year and will soon be coming out of Winter.

The Russians have been moving in blood supplies which are of course only needed if you plan to attack:

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/russia-ukraine-war-sanctions-live-26295655

Ukraine has legalised the carrying of arms by its citizens for self defense purposes, will be just like the US now ;D
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Nightwish on February 23, 2022, 03:57:55 AM
State of emergency now declared in Ukraine..except for the Donetsk and Luhansk regions...with people now having the right to bear arms.

The state of emergency would be imposed for 30 days (renewable) and will cover the whole of Ukraine, with the exception of the regions of Donetsk and Luhansk, which already in a state of emergency
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Trenchcoat on February 23, 2022, 04:03:15 AM
The Ukrainian President is now calling forward conscripts from the reserve to join the the main regular army:

http://www.reuters.com/world/europe/ukrainian-president-calls-up-reservists-launches-programme-economic-patriotism-2022-02-22/

If I were them I would be making use of that European Tourist visa-free scheme :D

Many of the great and the good have fled Ukraine as the article points out, wealthy businessmen, politicians, etc. I wouldn't see a need to fight if they aren't lol.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Nightwish on February 23, 2022, 04:25:03 AM
The Ukrainian President is now calling forward conscripts from the reserve to join the the main regular army:

http://www.reuters.com/world/europe/ukrainian-president-calls-up-reservists-launches-programme-economic-patriotism-2022-02-22/

If I were them I would be making use of that European visa-free scheme :D

Many of the great and the good have fled Ukraine as the article points out, wealthy businessmen, politicians, etc. I wouldn't see a need to fight if they aren't lol.

I have 5 ladies and two small children (Tanyas friend) on their way here right now that used just that to "escape". They drove through Poland yesterday and took the overnight ferry to Sweden so now we are preparing the house to accommodate them for a while.

One of them has her husband in the army near Mariupol right on the frontline and they have been shelled continually for 2 days now.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Trenchcoat on February 23, 2022, 07:06:15 AM
I have 5 ladies and two small children (Tanyas friend) on their way here right now that used just that to "escape". They drove through Poland yesterday and took the overnight ferry to Sweden so now we are preparing the house to accommodate them for a while.

One of them has her husband in the army near Mariupol right on the frontline and they have been shelled continually for 2 days now.

Yeah sounds about right the women scarper while the guys are put up to face it all lol. Anyway interesting to hear from a more local source how things are on the ground Nightwish. Sounds hellish being stuck in the trenches under such harsh conditions especially being shelled for 2 days straight, no doubt led to a few casualties.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: John Gaunt on February 23, 2022, 07:47:03 AM
The Ukrainian President is now calling forward conscripts from the reserve to join the the main regular army:

http://www.reuters.com/world/europe/ukrainian-president-calls-up-reservists-launches-programme-economic-patriotism-2022-02-22/

If I were them I would be making use of that European Tourist visa-free scheme :D

Many of the great and the good have fled Ukraine as the article points out, wealthy businessmen, politicians, etc. I wouldn't see a need to fight if they aren't lol.
Reading your posts anyone would think you’re actually revelling at the prospect of conflict.
No doubt you think it’ll up your chances of ‘getting’ with a poor war refugee.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: tfcrew on February 23, 2022, 08:20:53 AM
Reading your posts anyone would think you’re actually revelling at the prospect of conflict.
No doubt you think it’ll up your chances of ‘getting’ with a poor war refugee.
Nah...will remain our resident news anchor always.

It does seem as though the media wants a war to report on... no doubt fueled by military contractor lobbyists.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Chelseaboy on February 23, 2022, 09:00:55 AM
Reading your posts anyone would think you’re actually revelling at the prospect of conflict.
No doubt you think it’ll up your chances of ‘getting’ with a poor war refugee.


If that's Trench's thinking i suspect he's in for a nasty shock.


The hotties that are not being bused to Russia will be fleeing to Poland.


Once they're in Poland he'll have as much chance of pulling one of them as he has with a Polish girl...virtually nil..as they'll be hooking up with the local Polish guys as a way to remain there.


As for the few remaining in Ukraine then they'll be the benefits of conquest for the occupying Russian troops..bearing in mind General Trench has stated the Ukrainian forces will be obliterated by the Russian forces within a couple of days.


Russian troops are well-known for their treatment of women in occupied countries...as in Germany.


Plus the fact Trench,being a Brit and with our country in the forefront of  helping Ukrainians kill Russian troops.he'll be far from welcome in a Russia occupied Ukraine or Russia..he might not even get out of the airport in one piece,


Nope,if things go as Trench believes,then he can forget about finding a wife/girlfriend in Ukraine now....it's all over for him there and in Russia .


Philippines or Thailand are his best options...plenty of edgy bad girls who dress in a slutty way he likes working the bars there who'll be only too happy to shack up with a Brit.


He might even find a Russian or Ukrainian girl there...Pattaya is full of them.


Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: John Gaunt on February 23, 2022, 09:21:01 AM

If that's Trench's thinking i suspect he's in for a nasty shock.

Our Trench isn’t known for his listening skills since he ignores sound advice here unless it fits with his peculiar theories.
Quote



Philippines or Thailand are his best options...plenty of edgy bad girls who dress in a slutty way he likes working the bars there who'll be only too happy to shack up with a Brit.
He might be in for a shock with those pretty lil things and get more than he paid bargained for.


Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Trenchcoat on February 23, 2022, 09:55:06 AM

If that's Trench's thinking i suspect he's in for a nasty shock.


The hotties that are not being bused to Russia will be fleeing to Poland.


Once they're in Poland he'll have as much chance of pulling one of them as he has with a Polish girl...virtually nil..as they'll be hooking up with the local Polish guys as a way to remain there.


As for the few remaining in Ukraine then they'll be the benefits of conquest for the occupying Russian troops..bearing in mind General Trench has stated the Ukrainian forces will be obliterated by the Russian forces within a couple of days.


Russian troops are well-known for their treatment of women in occupied countries...as in Germany.


Plus the fact Trench,being a Brit and with our country in the forefront of  helping Ukrainians kill Russian troops.he'll be far from welcome in a Russia occupied Ukraine or Russia..he might not even get out of the airport in one piece,


Nope,if things go as Trench believes,then he can forget about finding a wife/girlfriend in Ukraine now....it's all over for him there and in Russia .


Philippines or Thailand are his best options...plenty of edgy bad girls who dress in a slutty way he likes working the bars there who'll be only too happy to shack up with a Brit.


He might even find a Russian or Ukrainian girl there...Pattaya is full of them.

I think worst case scenario you could be right CB. I think me, Pat, Steven & CB, etc will have to hope on Ukraine being made a puppet state and not incorporated into Russia. With a bit of luck they'll still allow tourist visa-free scheme as before to keep up the appearance of being still somewhat autonomous to the outside world. If that occurs we may ironically be better off than before as at least then we won't have Ukraine having close ties or even seeking membership with the EU and that raining on our parade. The Ukrainian visa-free EU scheme for its citizens will then probably be stopped and matters will be as they used to be in Ukraine again.

Poland idk, there is that, that the hottest girls may try to get with a Polish guy but there's the Religious difference, then a bit of cultural issues - the way the Polish value Ukrainian ms, etc. Also many Polish may already have wives, etc. Could be that our search for a Ukrainian girl takes us to Poland in future lol.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Trenchcoat on February 23, 2022, 11:24:56 AM
Reading your posts anyone would think you’re actually revelling at the prospect of conflict.
No doubt you think it’ll up your chances of ‘getting’ with a poor war refugee.

I'm not revelling in the prospect of war between Russia & Ukraine at all Gaunty. None of it is my doing nor do I take any joy in the matter merely a keen interest as it's a country vans people I have great interest with, the women obviously mainly but I do have sympathy for the Ukrainian guys out there who are having to stomach it all.

Unfortunately, I can see little good news on the horizon for Ukrainians, the ball really is in Russia's court, specifically Putin on how it goes down from here and how much suffering is inflicted upon Ukrainians as a result.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Chelseaboy on February 23, 2022, 11:26:34 AM
Our Secretary of State for Defence Ben Wallace  said Putin "has gone full tonto ".


That means Taken Lunacy to a new level...easy English for you to read GQBlues.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Nightwish on February 23, 2022, 11:56:48 AM

If that's Trench's thinking i suspect he's in for a nasty shock.


The hotties that are not being bused to Russia will be fleeing to Poland.

<sniped>

well five of them arrived in Sweden today, five gorgeous Ukrainian ladies in their 30's will be occupying our home for the foreseeable future. If Trench wasn't such an ass I would invite him to come here and meet them, but.. naaah I would not do that to any lady, that would be a punishment worse than staying in Ukraine.

The checkpoint to Poland was really congested yesterday, a lot of women and children going to relatives already in west Europe. Took the girls over 4 hours to get across even though Polish borderguards just waived them through quickly after checking that they had valid passports, didn't even bother to question them where they where going.

I can just imagine the pressure on the border if Russia starts a bigger invasion targeting Kyiv and other bigger cities.

Mariupol is in Putins sight, he wants that landbridge to Crimea and the deployment of Ukrainian troops there around Mariupol is massive already, they expect a charge at any time, shelling has been going on endlessly for the last two days and when one of them here got a videocall from her husband on the front we could both see and hear the shells falling and the explosions.


Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: GQBlues on February 23, 2022, 12:02:57 PM
Our Secretary of State for Defence Ben Wallace  said Putin "has gone full tonto ".


That means Taken Lunacy to a new level...easy English for you to read GQBlues.


As I've exemplified in more than one occasion about you, pretty obvious the 'ability to read and comprehend' isn't mutual.


Invasion yet?  >:D
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Nightwish on February 23, 2022, 12:11:47 PM

As I've exemplified in more than one occasion about you, pretty obvious the 'ability to read and comprehend' isn't mutual.


Invasion yet?  >:D
Yes, the invasion started 2014
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: GQBlues on February 23, 2022, 12:22:33 PM
Yes, the invasion started 2014



I guess for Europeans, there isn't a distinction between a civil war from an invasion. Cannibalism is cannibalism, I suppose.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Nightwish on February 23, 2022, 12:35:21 PM

I guess for Europeans, there isn't a distinction between a civil war from an invasion. Cannibalism is cannibalism, I suppose.

"Some" Americans are obviously not well educated in the simplest geography, not surprised though, let me explain this simply for you

Russia IS NOT Ukraine
In Russian: россия не украина
In programming language: Russia != Ukraine


Crimea is part of Ukraine - Crimea was invaded by Russia 2014

I know you often act stupid but You can not be this stupid?

Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: GQBlues on February 23, 2022, 12:42:37 PM
"Some" Americans are obviously not well educated in the simplest geography, not surprised though, let me explain this simply for you

Russia IS NOT Ukraine
In Russian: россия не украина
In programming language: Russia != Ukraine


Crimea is part of Ukraine - Crimea was invaded by Russia 2014

I know you often act stupid but You can not be this stupid?


How ironic. Crimea at the time was an autonomous state.


Stupid much?
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Nightwish on February 23, 2022, 12:49:30 PM

How ironic. Crimea at the time was an autonomous state.


Stupid much?
Yes, yes you are.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: GQBlues on February 23, 2022, 12:53:29 PM
Yes, yes you are.


 >:D  Happy to edooket another European.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Boethius on February 23, 2022, 01:23:46 PM
Crimea was an autonomous republic within the Ukrainian state.  It was not an independent country.  It was a subdivision of Ukraine.  Yes, it was invaded by Russia in 2014.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Trenchcoat on February 23, 2022, 01:59:52 PM
well five of them arrived in Sweden today, five gorgeous Ukrainian ladies in their 30's will be occupying our home for the foreseeable future. If Trench wasn't such an ass I would invite him to come here and meet them, but.. naaah I would not do that to any lady, that would be a punishment worse than staying in Ukraine.

The checkpoint to Poland was really congested yesterday, a lot of women and children going to relatives already in west Europe. Took the girls over 4 hours to get across even though Polish borderguards just waived them through quickly after checking that they had valid passports, didn't even bother to question them where they where going.

I can just imagine the pressure on the border if Russia starts a bigger invasion targeting Kyiv and other bigger cities.

Mariupol is in Putins sight, he wants that landbridge to Crimea and the deployment of Ukrainian troops there around Mariupol is massive already, they expect a charge at any time, shelling has been going on endlessly for the last two days and when one of them here got a videocall from her husband on the front we could both see and hear the shells falling and the explosions.

Ah see we have that Husky back on here again licking at me balls ;D

It looks like many Ukrainians are making their way to western Ukraine to Lviv in particular according to this article:

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-02-22/as-russia-inches-closer-to-war-lviv-has-become-a-sanctuary/100851494

They are no doubt hedging their bets and thinking if Russia invades then they can do a quick sprint to the Polish border. I'm thinking they may be taken by surprise by a quick push by Russian possibly even some Belarusian troops from the North. They reckon 1-2 Millon mostly Ukrainians will try to cross, but what are the odds that Putin know this and will try to race forward as fast as possible to cut off the 'escape route'. May all depend on Putin's plans for Ukraine, if he is looking to incorporate the whole of Ukraine into the Russian Federation then he'll want to keep his hands on as much of the population as possible to work there. If his intentions is to set up a puppet government then he might figure those that cross the border might soon return, although he might still try to rush to close the border just in case.

So if I were in Lviv I wouldn't necessarily count on crossing quick especially as loads of others will be clogging up the roads and railways to do the same. Lviv may not look far on the map from the Polish border but it still takes a but of time to get there and that may become an issue for some I'm thinking.

I think Putin will be wanting to get his hands on Mariupol pretty eagerly as it's worth in being a Maritime Port on the Black Sea makes it strategically worthy. I'm not so sure he'll be that bothered about a land bridge to Crimea now that he has his sea bridge built there. What Putin decides to take and whether he might partition Ukraine we'll have to wait and see I guess.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: GQBlues on February 23, 2022, 02:01:37 PM
Crimea was an autonomous republic within the Ukrainian state.  It was not an independent country.  It was a subdivision of Ukraine.  Yes, it was invaded by Russia in 2014.


Like I said, Crimea was an autonomous state in 2014. Not sure which part of that was difficult to understand.


Invasion: an outside attack, 'entering', 'intrusion', 'penetration' et al...another territory or country.


tsk, tsk, tsk...
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Chelseaboy on February 23, 2022, 02:06:55 PM
"Some" Americans are obviously not well educated in the simplest geography, not surprised though, let me explain this simply for you

Russia IS NOT Ukraine
In Russian: россия не украина
In programming language: Russia != Ukraine


Crimea is part of Ukraine - Crimea was invaded by Russia 2014

I know you often act stupid but You can not be this stupid?


Oh yes he is..he shows it with practically every post he makes. :cluebat:
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: GQBlues on February 23, 2022, 02:11:46 PM

Oh yes he is..he shows it with practically every post he makes. :cluebat:


GQ, the eagle high above the turkeys.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Boethius on February 23, 2022, 03:15:12 PM
"Autonomous republic" is merely an administratinve designation.  Their budget came from Kyiv.  Their currency was the hyrvnia.  They had no independent foreign policy.  They were akin to Quebec in Canada - even less so, as they had no immigration powers.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: GQBlues on February 23, 2022, 03:38:41 PM
"Autonomous republic" is merely an administratinve designation.  Their budget came from Kyiv.  Their currency as the hyrvnia.  They had no independent foreign policy.  They were akin to Quebec in Canada - even less so, as they had no immigration powers.


Its a 'legal' designation. Crimea still retained the right to choose their own governance. They voted for their annexation to Russia convincingly, and for anyone who would like to dispute that outcome, a poll was conducted 2 years ago (http://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/ukraine/2020-04-03/russia-love) and the majority still favored the annexation. And this...


Quote
Crimean residents are almost universally positive toward Russia. At least nine-in-ten have confidence in Putin (93%) and say Russia is playing a positive role in Crimea (92%). Confidence in Obama is almost negligible at 4%, and just 2% think the U.S. is having a good influence on the way things are going on the Crimean peninsula[/size].[/color][/size]


Do not make the mistake to think I'm a fan of Putin. There's enough posts of mine in this very board that would openly dispute that. As an American, Ukraine nd Russia have a much deeper history together than most neighboring nations today. It is up to their own peoples to determine their own fate. The last thing I would hate to see is having the US having to stick its snotty nose in this current volatile situation -  AGAIN. There was plenty enough Ukrainians, and Russians, that died in 2014 bloodying our hands with it. Enough.



Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Boethius on February 23, 2022, 03:58:14 PM
HAHAHA.  Yeah, sure.  They voted for annexation.  Just like Czechoslovakia voted for annexation to Germany in 1938.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: GQBlues on February 23, 2022, 04:32:04 PM
HAHAHA.  Yeah, sure.  They voted for annexation.  Just like Czechoslovakia voted for annexation to Germany in 1938.


Apples and oranges anyone?
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Trenchcoat on February 23, 2022, 05:23:43 PM
Apparently 80 percent of Putin's forces now in attack position:

http://news.sky.com/story/amp/ukraine-enters-state-of-emergency-as-pentagon-says-80-of-russian-forces-in-attack-position-12549749

As I said the Separatists 'asked' Putin for military help which he was all too willing to oblige.

My guess is that they are drawing up battle plans now for the attack, most will have been completed probably by now.

So probably little time left now before Russia attacks. My guess is that they will hit them from all sides at once so it's too much for Ukraine to deal with. The Donbas & Luhansk just serving as an excuse for Putin to state the need to take out Ukraine as a whole as a belligerent nation.

My guess is that they will hit Ukraine's main army in the east with a lot of missiles and in a few other places as well before they send in ground forces. I think that has become almost certain now since we sent them the NLAW's.

I personally see Ukrainian Army casualties as being the highest, unfortunately likely in the tens of thousands almost instantly, could easily be 50,000-100,000 or more. Such a loss of life would be terrible so I would hope otherwise but fear that will be the case.

I think Putin will surround the cities and likely starve them out, at which point with the loss of most of their army the Ukrainian politicians, etc who are open to Russia and themselves gaining lucrative positions in the new regime will likely cone forward to 'negotiate'. Putin will then probably take the bits of Ukraine he wants to incorporate into Russia and give the puppet government his terms which they will agree to.

My guess is that he won't probably try and incorporate all of Ukraine into Russia to avoid a lot of civilian bloodshed by entering all of their major cities, that and a smashed economy. On top of that it would probably avoid terrorism, insurgencies, etc. Otherwise Putin will have to tackle many Ukrainian citizens armed to the teeth in the cities, blasting and clearing as he goes. That is likely to be dangerous for his army and take a lot of time and loss of population & economy. I don't think he'll want to do that its not really worth his while. I think a report a week or so ago said that he reckoned the Russian Army could accomplish the Invasion in about 48 hours. That would tie up with the scenario I've presented. Putin has no doubt seen how it went down for the US, UK, etc in Iraq an won't want those problems on his hands for a long period of time.

Anyway, that's how I reckon it will go down, he won't be up for a WWI or WWII style shooting contest with Ukrainians is my thoughts, he'll keep out of that and use more modern warfare.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: rwd123 on February 23, 2022, 06:24:35 PM
Looks like VVP lost his patience.

Ukraine is an undeniable failed state, and arguably a failed society. In some respects it is comparable to the Balkans. The difference now it is Russia putting its foot down and not NATO.

Welcome to the real world. The ability to put impart military might is still trumps BS. Crimea has been part of the Russian Federation for eight years and that's not going to change. The policy of 'unrecognized' buffer states (South Ossetia, Abkhazia, Transnistria) has been expanded. This is by and large a direct response to NATO advancement toward Russia's borders.

To the winner takes the spoils. Russia comprehensively won the conflict in 2014. The West still haven't accepted the "L". The best NATO can muster is a dirty conflict in Donbas. The best the US/UK can do is announce further sanctions. The EU can do jack shit as it is reliant on Russian (energy) exports.

The USD/RUB is nearing new highs. Will be interesting to see if resistance is broken and the RUB declines significantly. If it does then RF real estate is looking like a speculative play to me.


 
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: fathertime on February 23, 2022, 07:46:36 PM

 

  The last thing I would hate to see is having the US having to stick its snotty nose in this current volatile situation -  AGAIN. There was plenty enough Ukrainians, and Russians, that died in 2014 bloodying our hands with it. Enough.
Dude, the US doesn't have a nose...it has a snout, and it ain't snot, it's shit. 

Fathertime! 
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: fathertime on February 23, 2022, 07:53:30 PM
. He might be in for a shock with those pretty lil things and get more than he paid bargained for.
Gaunty, you are really underestimating good old TC.  Remember during the great toilet paper crisis of 2020, he is the one who had babes lining up down the block for his TP supply, trading in their bodily wares.   If I recall correctly, he was such a shrewd capitalist that as the crisis deepened, he started charging them by the inch and ply.    If TC wants value with these escaping Ukrainian babes, he will find a way. 

Fathertime!
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: tfcrew on February 23, 2022, 07:59:06 PM
  The last thing I would hate to see is having the US having to stick its snotty nose in this current volatile situation....

 
 (http://media.townhall.com/Townhall/Car/b/afb022322dAPR20220223054505.jpg)
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: John Gaunt on February 23, 2022, 08:52:59 PM
Gaunty, you are really underestimating good old TC.  Remember during the great toilet paper crisis of 2020, he is the one who had babes lining up down the block for his TP supply, trading in their bodily wares.   If I recall correctly, he was such a shrewd capitalist that as the crisis deepened, he started charging them by the inch and ply.    If TC wants value with these escaping Ukrainian babes, he will find a way. 

Fathertime!
Oh dear.

My post was in response to a comment about TC doing better in Thailand and is about pretty Thai ladies and Ladyboys, not hot Ukrainian women.
As far as Trench and toilet paper goes, thank you for pointing that out. I think that connection is very apt.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: John Gaunt on February 23, 2022, 08:56:38 PM
Crimea was an autonomous republic within the Ukrainian state.  It was not an independent country.  It was a subdivision of Ukraine.  Yes, it was invaded by Russia in 2014.
Exactly.
No semantics here.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: John Gaunt on February 23, 2022, 09:02:36 PM
Putin and Russia strongly condemned in the UN by practically every country for their illegal actions in Crimea and Occupied regions of Donbas.
Great speech by the UKR Foreign Minister.

Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: fathertime on February 23, 2022, 09:04:40 PM

 (http://media.townhall.com/Townhall/Car/b/afb022322dAPR20220223054505.jpg)
One of the funnier cartoons I've seen. 
I'm going to have to try greeting clients in that position at my shop.

Fathertime! 
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: fathertime on February 23, 2022, 09:09:51 PM
It seems a full blown war is erupting the US stock exchange has flipped out..  If the earliest of reports are accurate Putin is at all playing around and has threatened US assets as well.  It seems Putin has indeed decided to go big.  Old Trenchcoat may have been right this one time.

Fathertime! 
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: rwd123 on February 23, 2022, 09:43:02 PM
The USD/RUB is nearing new highs. Will be interesting to see if resistance is broken and the RUB declines significantly. If it does then RF real estate is looking like a speculative play to me.
USD/RUB exceeded and closed on a new high. Watching this over the next few days. Not sure the market has already priced in prospective sanctions.

Prior to actions in 2014 USD/RUB was around 35, now it is 84 (was 74 at the start of the year). RCB may need to hike rates to keep inflation in check. Unlike most western countries they haven't adopted ZIRP so may go into recession but keep their currency functional.

Not sure the RF will be cut off from SWIFT but if that happens the RUB may drop like a stone. The only way for ordinary people to get money in and out of the country in that situation is likely to be physical transit.

Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: John Gaunt on February 23, 2022, 09:53:48 PM
To all those with family in Ukraine, my thoughts and prayers for them.
What Putin has done is beyond the pale.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Trenchcoat on February 24, 2022, 02:44:33 AM
FULL SCALE INVASION OF UKRAINE HAS BEGUN!!!!!

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-60503037

Just as I predicted last night Russia has chosen to attack from all sides all at once and has now launched a full scale invasion of Ukraine! Russian troops have breached the Ukrainian border in a number of places and Ukrainian troops have come under missile attack. So much for the military training exercises Russia was just claiming it was up to, shows that Putin can't be trusted. Invasion of the whole of Ukraine is fully underway now, no longer any doubt.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: John Gaunt on February 24, 2022, 02:51:05 AM
FULL SCALE INVASION OF UKRAINE HAS BEGUN!!!!!

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-60503037

Just as I predicted last night Russia has chosen to attack from all sides all at once and has now launched a full scale invasion of Ukraine! Russian troops have breached the Ukrainian border in a number of places and Ukrainian troops have come under missile attack. So much for the military training exercises Russia was just claiming it was up to, shows that Putin can't be trusted. Invasion of the whole of Ukraine is fully underway now, no longer any doubt.
Trench, just stfu.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Trenchcoat on February 24, 2022, 03:17:58 AM
Trench, just stfu.

Putin's going about it exactly as I said just hours before hand last night Gaunty. If Putin holds to what he says he's not going to take the whole of Ukraine, it will be as I predicted a puppet government in what remains of Ukraine with them agreeing to Putin's terms. Putin states he is aiming to demilitarise Ukraine so as thought he will hammer Ukraine's military and just leave the new Ukrainian puppet government with whatever remains of the smashed military.

Apparently a number of sites have been hit, military installations and airports including Boryspill International Airport near Kyiv, know it well obviously but no chance of anyone going there now.

Civilians in Kyiv hopped in their cars and piled out of Kyiv moments after Putin's broadcast. Again a complete stompede towards the border and likely too late. Many believed Putin would not invade in a full scale invasion only to be proved wrong this morning.

No doubt a lot more will be going down on this today with it all moving pretty fast.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: John Gaunt on February 24, 2022, 03:41:41 AM
Putin's going about it exactly as I said just hours before hand last night Gaunty. If Putin holds to what he says he's not going to take the whole of Ukraine, it will be as I predicted a puppet government in what remains of Ukraine with them agreeing to Putin's terms. Putin states he is aiming to demilitarise Ukraine so as thought he will hammer Ukraine's military and just leave the new Ukrainian puppet government with whatever remains of the smashed military.

Apparently a number of sites have been hit, military installations and airports including Boryspill International Airport near Kyiv, know it well obviously but no chance of anyone going there now.

Civilians in Kyiv hopped in their cars and piled out of Kyiv moments after Putin's broadcast. Again a complete stompede towards the border and likely too late. Many believed Putin would not invade in a full scale invasion only to be proved wrong this morning.

No doubt a lot more will be going down on this today with it all moving pretty fast.
Nobody’s interested in your BS parroting taken from the Daily Wail and claiming it as your own analysis.

Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: John Gaunt on February 24, 2022, 03:43:25 AM
Meanwhile, in real news, about 40 UKR casualties near Chernighiv where the Ukrainian army is holding the Russians back.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Trenchcoat on February 24, 2022, 04:00:33 AM
A rundown of the full scale invasion so far:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10546123/How-Ukraine-invasion-unfolded-minute-minute.html
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Trenchcoat on February 24, 2022, 04:01:43 AM
Nobody’s interested in your BS parroting taken from the Daily Wail and claiming it as your own analysis.

I assure you that wasn't taken from any other source than my own noggin Gaunty.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Trenchcoat on February 24, 2022, 04:52:24 AM
Just some more accounts on the full scale Invasion:

BBC News - Ukraine invasion: Kyiv residents seek shelter as blasts hit
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-60506712

So far it looks like Putin is after Kharkiv with Russian paratroopers dropped there. It's very near the Russian border so very vulnerable. Odessa may have Russian paratroopers dropped there also and seems to be an immediate target also. Russian Tanks have apparently been rolling up from Crimea likely towards Kherson and Separatists in the East launching an all out offensive supported by Russian planes etc. Missiles have apparently been landing everywhere with hundreds dead already.

Our Yankee friends on this forum will no doubt just be waking up to this news in the States and may come as quite a shock to some of them.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Chelseaboy on February 24, 2022, 04:56:51 AM

As I've exemplified in more than one occasion about you, pretty obvious the 'ability to read and comprehend' isn't mutual.


Invasion yet?  >:D


18 people killed in Odesa by missile strikes today


Ukraine being attacked by Russia by land sea and air.


Invasion yet ?  >:D


Putin/Hitler publicly threatens the rest of the World not to intervene in his slaughter of Ukrainians


Another Putin apologist shown up to be totally stupid and gullible. :cluebat:
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Chelseaboy on February 24, 2022, 05:26:05 AM
Looks like VVP lost his patience.

Ukraine is an undeniable failed state, and arguably a failed society. In some respects it is comparable to the Balkans. The difference now it is Russia putting its foot down and not NATO.

Welcome to the real world. The ability to put impart military might is still trumps BS. Crimea has been part of the Russian Federation for eight years and that's not going to change. The policy of 'unrecognized' buffer states (South Ossetia, Abkhazia, Transnistria) has been expanded. This is by and large a direct response to NATO advancement toward Russia's borders.

To the winner takes the spoils. Russia comprehensively won the conflict in 2014. The West still haven't accepted the "L". The best NATO can muster is a dirty conflict in Donbas. The best the US/UK can do is announce further sanctions. The EU can do jack shit as it is reliant on Russian (energy) exports.

The USD/RUB is nearing new highs. Will be interesting to see if resistance is broken and the RUB declines significantly. If it does then RF real estate is looking like a speculative play to me.


Sounds like you're relishing what's happening in Ukraine and cheerleading murderous Putin.


Did you get dumped/rejected by a Ukrainian woman ?


Or maybe you just admire tyrants.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Brillynt on February 24, 2022, 05:33:29 AM
My wife was able to talk to her family in Lugansk this morning. Their internet is intermittent and slow, but they are able to message each other. They say the army pushed out from Lugansk heading west. The fighting is happening in Ukrainian territory, so they are safe for the moment. This was the only good news, that family is ok.

I have spent a lot of time in Ukraine and I love that country only second to my own. I can only hope that this invasion ends quickly to limit the amount of bloodshed. It hurts to see places that I have been to multiple times with people being killed and injured. I felt the same when the fighting started in 2014.  Seeing the utter destruction of the Donetsk airport where I met my wife in person for the first time made my heart ache.

It still amazes me the depths of depravity that politicians and dictators will go to get what they want. I guess I should stop being surprised by the brutality of the human animal.

I can only hope that the people of Ukraine can survive and live through what is happening. My prayers go out to the people of Ukraine that are being subjected to the stupidity of tin pot dictators.

This is what happens when you have idiots in charge of countries.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Chelseaboy on February 24, 2022, 05:37:57 AM
Ukraine reporting 40 of their troops killed and that they've killed 50 Russian troops.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: fathertime on February 24, 2022, 05:57:29 AM
Well now that it appears Putin is going to go big, it may be that all of Ukraine is going to be his goal.  It seems that trying to occupy a country that size would be terribly difficult without significant support from within.

It seems pretty clear that China is going to support Russia from a financial standpoint.  China has 1.4 billion people, more than all of Europe.   China needs energy and food.  Russia has both.  If we (The US) further agitate, demonize, or try to sanction China I now wouldn't be surprised if they decided to envelope Taiwan once and for all. 

Russia promises severe and unseen consequences for nations that interfere in their dismembering of Ukraine.  One can guess that Putin would be willing to take the fight to a foreign land (US soil, UK soil, etc etc), meaning bombing. Here in the US, we have been insulated for decades from real war, and it seems we want to remain that way.  Russia wouldn't be able to 'win' a large-scale war, but their threats are probably real.   

Looking back at now distant history, the US had created an oil embargo and froze Japanese assets, and Japan retaliated unexpectedly at Pearl Harbor. Trying to use power and influence to hold nations back creates rancor and eventually war.    Nowadays with nuclear weapons floating around, the dynamics have changed, and major war has been off the table due to MAD. 

  China calls for talks on Ukraine, OKs Russian wheat imports


China called Thursday for talks to resolve the Ukraine crisis and avoided criticizing President Vladimir Putin’s attack while, in a step that could blunt the impact of Western sanctions, Beijing also approved imports of Russian wheat.

....Beijing has blamed Washington and its European allies for the conflict over Ukraine.

“All parties should work for peace instead of escalating the tension or hyping up the possibility of war,” Hua said. “Those parties who were busy condemning others, what have they done? Have they persuaded others?"....


 http://www.yahoo.com/news/china-calls-talks-over-ukraine-085706369.html   (http://www.yahoo.com/news/china-calls-talks-over-ukraine-085706369.html)

Fathertime! 
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Patagonie on February 24, 2022, 06:01:23 AM
The only thing that prevents moving RF IMHO is that they still haven't cleaned the whole SAM Ukrainian system.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Chelseaboy on February 24, 2022, 06:01:50 AM
My wife was able to talk to her family in Lugansk this morning. Their internet is intermittent and slow, but they are able to message each other. They say the army pushed out from Lugansk heading west. The fighting is happening in Ukrainian territory, so they are safe for the moment. This was the only good news, that family is ok.

I have spent a lot of time in Ukraine and I love that country only second to my own. I can only hope that this invasion ends quickly to limit the amount of bloodshed. It hurts to see places that I have been to multiple times with people being killed and injured. I felt the same when the fighting started in 2014.  Seeing the utter destruction of the Donetsk airport where I met my wife in person for the first time made my heart ache.

It still amazes me the depths of depravity that politicians and dictators will go to get what they want. I guess I should stop being surprised by the brutality of the human animal.

I can only hope that the people of Ukraine can survive and live through what is happening. My prayers go out to the people of Ukraine that are being subjected to the stupidity of tin pot dictators.

This is what happens when you have idiots in charge of countries.


I lost faith in people a long time ago.


NATO in particular and the EU have seriously let down the people of Ukraine.


They held out the hope for full membership for Ukraine for many years without actually letting them join,knowing full well that Mad Vlad was seriously unhappy in the meantime and things could kick-off at anytime.




NATO should hang their heads in shame....all talk no trousers.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Brillynt on February 24, 2022, 06:20:05 AM

I lost faith in people a long time ago.


NATO in particular and the EU have seriously let down the people of Ukraine.


They held out the hope for full membership for Ukraine for many years without actually letting them join,knowing full well that Mad Vlad was seriously unhappy in the meantime and things could kick-off at anytime.




NATO should hang their heads in shame....all talk no trousers.

That is not a surprise, NATO is all woke pussies like most of the West. Unless they are beating their own population for being a patriot.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Chelseaboy on February 24, 2022, 06:45:14 AM




It seems 'blaming' Blair is rampant in your line of thinking..in the US that's called 'passing the buck'. How did Mr. Blair come into such a powerful position again to cause the UK's bloody hand in Afghanistan again?






Following todays events,remind us how Putin came into power and of even more concern how he's stayed in power to cause Russia's bloody hand in Georgia,Syria and now Ukraine.


Are you holding ALL Russians accountable for what's happening in Ukraine right now ?


Or are you going to "pass the buck " ?
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Chelseaboy on February 24, 2022, 07:25:27 AM
Protests in Russia now starting.


A large amount of protestors in Yekaterinburg shouting "No to War ".


Russia really needs to get Mad Vlad out of power one way or another..nothing off the table....as us Brits did with our war criminal Blair...or things are not going to end well for the World.


Mad Vlad has totally lost his mind.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: GQBlues on February 24, 2022, 09:10:26 AM
So the world woke up to the reality Russia had taken a page off the Iraq invasion and launched a massive countrywide invasion of Ukraine. Let me see now..


1. Putin is evil - check.
2. US promised not to advance NATO an inch eastward from Berlin, but reneged on that - check
3. Putin showed his evil ways in Chechnya - check
4. Georgia and Ukraine aspired to become NATO members - evil Putin showed the stupid consequence of that in Georgia - check
5. Ukraine conducted an illegal coup of a internationally recognized and certified presidential (pro-Russian) administration that culminated in a civil war and a territorial military takeover by evil Putin within the Ukrainian sovereignty - check.
6. 8 years later, at the behest of the very same US politicians to again open the potentiality of Ukraine's NATO membership, despite nearly half the European members believing it can't happen, should not happen and a very bad idea. Yet Biden forged ahead and declared Ukraine's NATO membership will not even be included in any negotiation to negate looming military response from Russia as a consequence - check.

7. Now the world witnesses Russia's nationwide demoralizing total invasion of Ukraine - check
8. Full circle. Putin is evil - check

Why would anyone in their right fucking mind, insist on putting its entire population at mortal peril over something that could've been easily avoided, for a membership of a 'club' where half of its members believe/felt they shouldn't be granted such membership - for the simple reason they'd all wake up to what they're waking up on today? and a looming threat of another world war.

Any of you can give me your silly rationale that anyone is entitled to the right to do what it wants, then I grant you to lay witness to what is rationally, predictable reality of that today. The bill always comes due.

The US, and some of its idiotic rabid allies, poked this rabid bear way too much and for way too long. Now it reared its fangs and dare anyone of you to come to his party. 


Next stop: Taiwan/China.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: GQBlues on February 24, 2022, 09:19:50 AM
The only thing that prevents moving RF IMHO is that they still haven't cleaned the whole SAM Ukrainian system.


First things first.


Sever communication system, demoralize and take over all airports (paratroopers have mostly manned airport/field perimeters), man all land and port borders and isolate the country, while taking over its capital and leaders.
Any outside aid, or crusaders ceases.


Anyone who is non-Ukrainian who rallied for this is responsible for putting every Ukrainian in grave peril.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Trenchcoat on February 24, 2022, 09:25:39 AM
Got to say expected Russia to go in harder and faster than this. It looks like their strategy is purely centred on choking the enemy - Ukraine, into surrender. If it can encircle the cities and army cut of its routes of supply, namely the sea ports, which it has done and the border then it's only a matter of time before food starts to run out. A city full of millions of people is going to chomp through food pretty quickly, probably within days. The Ukrainian Army will be much the same. At which point capitulation will begin, Pro-Russian Ukrainians will step forward to negotiate surrender and terms of peace treaty, they'll have no choice but to accept and will get lucrative positions in the new government. The people will accept that is the only way out of their situation of starvation and hey ho it's all sorted.

So at least on the tens of thousands killed I may have been wrong though on that I prefer to be it just sounded too terrible.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Trenchcoat on February 24, 2022, 09:44:14 AM
Here seems to be the latest:

http://news.sky.com/story/russia-launches-invasion-of-ukraine-forces-trying-to-seize-site-of-chernobyl-nuclear-disaster-12550026

Apparently amphibious landings in Odessa & Mariupol. Kherson has apparently been subjected to fighting those tanks from Crimea no doubt having arrived now. Bet there's some bad Pro-date/Scammer girls probably now wishing they had been decent with their western guys and gone off abroad with them now ;)
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: fathertime on February 24, 2022, 10:06:06 AM
 
So at least on the tens of thousands killed I may have been wrong though on that I prefer to be it just sounded too terrible.

I don't think Russia would want 1,000's dead  Ukrainian or especially Russian. so it does make sense they would first try lower impact.

Fathetime! 
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Trenchcoat on February 24, 2022, 11:28:43 AM
I don't think Russia would want 1,000's dead  Ukrainian or especially Russian. so it does make sense they would first try lower impact.

Fathetime!

I agree it's not great for long term stability or in a country's history. Looks to me this is a classic case of regime change just Russia instigating it in Ukraine this time. What are the odds they might place Yanokovich back as President so reversing the situation back in 2014?

Apparently the Russians are trying to get their hands on Chernobyl. I think I vaguely recall it's still functioning as a nuclear power plant despite the accident they had there back in the 80's. No doubt trying to deprive Kyivans of power as well as food, so adding the cold etc to the mix draining their will to go on holding out. Let's hope it doesn't end in another nuclear catastrophe in their attempts to get their hands on it.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Trenchcoat on February 24, 2022, 11:52:01 AM
I'm surprised other forum members such as 2tallbill & Boe don't have more to say on this Invasion.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: GQBlues on February 24, 2022, 11:59:56 AM
For the more matured and studied readers:

An excerpt of a 1998 NYT’s Thomas Friedman’s interview with US Ambassador George Kennan, derived from NYT’s article: “Fumbling on NATO’s Expansion”
A cut from the sessions regarding NATO: (http://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/CREC-1998-03-03/html/CREC-1998-03-03-pt1-PgS1283-3.htm)

War veteran: Secretary Cohen, I thought we fought the cold war to change Russia, not to expand NATO. But now that we've changed Russia and should be consolidating that, you want to expand NATO?''


Secretary Cohen: NATO expansion is not directed against Russia. It's meant to secure the new democracies in East Europe.

Heckler: If it's meant to secure democracy in new democracies, isn't the most important new democracy Russia? And why is your P.R. campaign for NATO expansion being funded by U.S. arms sellers, who see NATO expansion as market expansion for their new weapons?

Student: I just got the spring issue of The National Interest magazine. It contains a letter from George Kennan, the architect of America's cold-war containment of the Soviet Union and one of our nation's greatest statesmen. Kennan says NATO expansion is a historic blunder. What do you all know that he doesn't? This is what he said:

Quote from: George Kennan
I think it is the beginning of a new cold war, I think the Russians will gradually react quite adversely and it will affect their policies. I think it is a tragic mistake. There was no reason for this whatsoever. No one was threatening anybody else.

This expansion would make the Founding Fathers of this country turn over in their graves. We have signed up to protect a whole series of countries, even though we have neither the resources nor the intention to do so in any serious way. [NATO expansion] was simply a light-hearted action by a Senate that has no real interest in foreign affairs.


What bothers me is how superficial and ill informed the whole Senate debate was (Note: Mr. Kennan was present at the creation of NATO and whose anonymous 1947 article in the journal Foreign Affairs, signed ''X,'' defined America's cold-war containment policy for 40 years).

I was particularly bothered by the references to Russia as a country dying to attack Western Europe. Don't people understand? Our differences in the cold war were with the Soviet Communist regime. And now we are turning our backs on the very people who mounted the greatest bloodless revolution in history to remove that Soviet regime.

And Russia's democracy is as far advanced, if not farther, as any of these countries we've just signed up to defend from Russia. It shows so little understanding of Russian history and Soviet history. Of course there is going to be a bad reaction from Russia, and then [the NATO expanders] will say that we always told you that is how the Russians are -- but this is just wrong.

[/size]Read: Owen Harries’ ‘The Dangers of Expansive Realism’. Today's reality of that is covered here (http://www.19fortyfive.com/2022/02/ignored-warnings-how-nato-expansion-led-to-the-current-ukraine-tragedy/).
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Muzh on February 24, 2022, 12:05:46 PM

NATO in particular and the EU have seriously let down the people of Ukraine.


They held out the hope for full membership for Ukraine for many years without actually letting them join, knowing full well that Mad Vlad was seriously unhappy in the meantime and things could kick-off at anytime.




NATO should hang their heads in shame....all talk no trousers.


That was a MAJOR blunder. They offered UA hopes of joining but no timetable nor conditions. Very stupid.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Muzh on February 24, 2022, 12:07:04 PM
That is not a surprise, NATO is all woke pussies like most of the West. Unless they are beating their own population for being a patriot.


You mean, like patriots wiping their asses with the Constitution?  8)
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Trenchcoat on February 24, 2022, 12:13:45 PM
Looks like Chernobyl Nuclear Power Plant has now fallen to Russian troops:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10545389/BREAKING-NEWS-Explosions-heard-Ukraine-port-city-Mariupol.html

They're also trying to gain control of power plants on the Dniper River so it's looking like they are trying to switch of Ukraine. Once that is done and they cut of food supply routes it's only a matter of time I guess. Fierce fighting happening elsewhere as well.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Muzh on February 24, 2022, 12:15:55 PM
So the world woke up to the reality Russia had taken a page off the Iraq invasion and launched a massive countrywide invasion of Ukraine. Let me see now..


1. Putin is evil - check.
2. US promised not to advance NATO an inch eastward from Berlin, but reneged on that - check
3. Putin showed his evil ways in Chechnya - check
4. Georgia and Ukraine aspired to become NATO members - evil Putin showed the stupid consequence of that in Georgia - check
5. Ukraine conducted an illegal coup of a internationally recognized and certified presidential (pro-Russian) administration that culminated in a civil war and a territorial military takeover by evil Putin within the Ukrainian sovereignty - check.
6. 8 years later, at the behest of the very same US politicians to again open the potentiality of Ukraine's NATO membership, despite nearly half the European members believing it can't happen, should not happen and a very bad idea. Yet Biden forged ahead and declared Ukraine's NATO membership will not even be included in any negotiation to negate looming military response from Russia as a consequence - check.

7. Now the world witnesses Russia's nationwide demoralizing total invasion of Ukraine - check
8. Full circle. Putin is evil - check

Why would anyone in their right fucking mind, insist on putting its entire population at mortal peril over something that could've been easily avoided, for a membership of a 'club' where half of its members believe/felt they shouldn't be granted such membership - for the simple reason they'd all wake up to what they're waking up on today? and a looming threat of another world war.

Any of you can give me your silly rationale that anyone is entitled to the right to do what it wants, then I grant you to lay witness to what is rationally, predictable reality of that today. The bill always comes due.

The US, and some of its idiotic rabid allies, poked this rabid bear way too much and for way too long. Now it reared its fangs and dare anyone of you to come to his party. 


Next stop: Taiwan/China.


GQ, I know you are a young stud.  8)


Probably, me thinks you missed the middle chapter of the 20th Century history book.


What just happened is more like Czechoslovakia and the Wehrmacht. Please review that chapter. Specifically who was in charge of the armies. Uncanny similarities.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Muzh on February 24, 2022, 12:18:11 PM
I don't think Russia would want 1,000's dead  Ukrainian or especially Russian. so it does make sense they would first try lower impact.

Fathetime!


You are absolutely correct.


However, I don't think Putan doesn't give a shit about this.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Muzh on February 24, 2022, 12:25:58 PM

Sounds like you're relishing what's happening in Ukraine and cheerleading murderous Putin.


Did you get dumped/rejected by a Ukrainian woman ?


Or maybe you just admire tyrants.


I think he is a Julio living in UA.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: GQBlues on February 24, 2022, 12:27:55 PM

GQ, I know you are a young stud.  8)

Probably, me thinks you missed the middle chapter of the 20th Century history book.

What just happened is more like Czechoslovakia and the Wehrmacht. Please review that chapter. Specifically who was in charge of the armies. Uncanny similarities.


Geopolitical history share many similar ambition albeit different players, different times sharing the same result.


But a quick review of the short history of this current tragedy, in the same location, same players and the very same context, should've given everyone a short tutorial of the consequential result what we are waking up to.


Just IMHO. This was overtly warned to all of us a day past reunification of Berlin.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Boethius on February 24, 2022, 12:33:33 PM
Looks like VVP lost his patience.

Ukraine is an undeniable failed state, and arguably a failed society. In some respects it is comparable to the Balkans. The difference now it is Russia putting its foot down and not NATO.

Welcome to the real world. The ability to put impart military might is still trumps BS. Crimea has been part of the Russian Federation for eight years and that's not going to change. The policy of 'unrecognized' buffer states (South Ossetia, Abkhazia, Transnistria) has been expanded. This is by and large a direct response to NATO advancement toward Russia's borders.

To the winner takes the spoils. Russia comprehensively won the conflict in 2014. The West still haven't accepted the "L". The best NATO can muster is a dirty conflict in Donbas. The best the US/UK can do is announce further sanctions. The EU can do jack shit as it is reliant on Russian (energy) exports.

The USD/RUB is nearing new highs. Will be interesting to see if resistance is broken and the RUB declines significantly. If it does then RF real estate is looking like a speculative play to me.


Lost his patience???  For what?  Ukraine was no threat to Russia, and had he removed troops from Donbas, the countries likely would have resumed completely normal relations.  As was, they had diplomatic relations.


The EU can go to other suppliers - the Middle East, Canada, the US (via LG). 


If you think this is about NATO, you're a fool.  It was never about NATO.  Russian children go to bed hearing fairy tales, most of which take place in Kyiv.  For Putin, it's about empire restoration, proving he is very much living in the past.  Personally, I think he has small man/small d energy, and killing thousands of innocents makes him feel powerful in a sick way.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Trenchcoat on February 24, 2022, 01:15:05 PM
A cracking exchange rate can be had on the GBP or USD Vs the Russian Ruble or Ukrainian Ghrivna right now.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Admin on February 24, 2022, 02:06:46 PM
People are dying on the ground in Ukraine RIGHT FUCKING *NOW*! It is NOT the time for you to be bickering about nonsensical bullshit. Direct your energies to something/anything which might save lives rather than pissing on each other's boots on an internet forum.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: GQBlues on February 24, 2022, 02:10:03 PM
I am curious as to what happens with this market if this conflict becomes a prolonged situation. Will the energy industry determine nations' resolve in this conflict, and for how long?


http://www.gazpromexport.ru/en/statistics/ (http://www.gazpromexport.ru/en/statistics/)


Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Bee Farmer on February 24, 2022, 03:14:44 PM
I think it is prime time to give Putin a taste of his own medicine.

Konigsberg historically was never Russian.  It only came into being after WWII.  The Soviet Union took it as a war prize from Germany.  When the Soviet Union fell apart in 1991, the (now NATO) countries surrounding it didn't want it, so Russia claimed it.  (And why didn't Russia throw a fit when NATO surrounded Konigsberg?)

I think we need to see military action and wipe Kaliningrad from the face of the map.  It should not be under Russian control.  It needs returned to its historical owners.  As for the fact that Kaliningrad is the base for the Russian naval fleet...too bad.  As for the fact that Kaliningrad is the center of much of Russian industry...too bad.  Losing Kaliningrad should be the kind of consequences Russia has to deal with for attacking Ukraine without provocation.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Trenchcoat on February 24, 2022, 03:18:27 PM
I am curious as to what happens with this market if this conflict becomes a prolonged situation. Will the energy industry determine nations' resolve in this conflict, and for how long?


http://www.gazpromexport.ru/en/statistics/ (http://www.gazpromexport.ru/en/statistics/)


Surprised to learn how much Gazprom export of their gas GQ, 78 percent is a hell of a lot for a big company like that. My thoughts are though that when a shortage is created prices rise so depends how long they are out of the European market for I guess. If only for so long they may not lose that much. My guess is that's why Putin has chosen to attack at the end of winter as it's the most lucrative time of the year so rather than a of winter. Plus his troops won't fancy being stuck outside in the depths of winter too long so now once invaded they are heading towards Spring even if that isn't all that warm out there it's no doubt better than winter.

I'm thinking the conflict won't go on long enough for the energy industry to start kicking off about it, it will likely be over in days. I think that will be part the reason that Putin will go for a puppet government in the hope of things calming down afterwards and Europe getting hooked up again to Russian gas.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Bee Farmer on February 24, 2022, 03:33:06 PM
And in some good news, Yahoo is reporting that a Russian platoon laid down their arms and surrendered to Ukrainian forces.  They developed a conscience, and didn't want to kill their Ukrainian brothers.  They said they had not been told they were brought here to kill Ukrainians.

Hopefully more Russian forces will follow suit.

http://news.yahoo.com/ukrainian-ambassador-says-russian-platoon-201138508.html
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Trenchcoat on February 24, 2022, 03:41:08 PM
And in some good news, Yahoo is reporting that a Russian platoon laid down their arms and surrendered to Ukrainian forces.  They developed a conscience, and didn't want to kill their Ukrainian brothers.  They said they had not been told they were brought here to kill Ukrainians.

Hopefully more Russian forces will follow suit.

http://news.yahoo.com/ukrainian-ambassador-says-russian-platoon-201138508.html

Perhaps they thought they were going there to pull some Ukrainian chicks:

http://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/news/8477730/russian-soldiers-tinder-ukraine/amp/
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: JohnDearGreen on February 24, 2022, 03:45:53 PM

Web Sites.  Not sure why Facebook is used...
http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2022/02/list-important-ukrainian-websites-regular-updates-including-armed-forces-president-zelensky-cabinet-ministers-defense-ministry-airports/ (http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2022/02/list-important-ukrainian-websites-regular-updates-including-armed-forces-president-zelensky-cabinet-ministers-defense-ministry-airports/)
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Trenchcoat on February 24, 2022, 04:02:14 PM
Ukraine is finding out first hand what the EU is really like, what they had hoped to join, an ineffectual bureaucracy that just doesn't care for others just itself and it's interests:

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/feb/24/kyiv-furious-as-eu-wavers-on-banning-russia-from-swift-payment-system
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: GQBlues on February 24, 2022, 04:04:20 PM
I wish Ukraine all the very best! May the bloodshed immediately stop, and destruction be averted.

I also hope hope this movement grows and more Americans wake up to the reality of our world today. NATO is obsolete. Totally disband it.

http://www.liberationnews.org/protest-outside-white-house-demands-no-war-on-russia-disband-nato/ (http://www.liberationnews.org/protest-outside-white-house-demands-no-war-on-russia-disband-nato/)
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Trenchcoat on February 24, 2022, 04:18:50 PM
I wish Ukraine all the very best! May the bloodshed immediately stop, and destruction be averted.

I also hope hope this movement grows and more Americans wake up to the reality of our world today. NATO is obsolete. Totally disband it.

http://www.liberationnews.org/protest-outside-white-house-demands-no-war-on-russia-disband-nato/ (http://www.liberationnews.org/protest-outside-white-house-demands-no-war-on-russia-disband-nato/)

My fear would be that Putin would then invade the Eastern Bloc nations. I don't think this was ever really so much to do about NATO, that was most likely the pretext for Invasion along with the Donbass. I think this was more about Russia extending its influence. Apparently the Kremlin has said that they have no intention of occupying Ukraine earlier today so I think we are looking at regime change here along with other agreements and of course likely done land annexed by Russia. Russian troops are already moving in on Kiev and about to encircle it as I predicted:

http://www.ft.com/content/5b423554-6ce9-49fe-b74c-da41298b565f#post-88d734c6-53d9-4cad-b1f4-f8f353d74e07

I think Zelensky is already yesterday's man. He has little time left and he is issuing proclamations of a mobilization of the population that will occur within 90 days. There's no way Ukraine will last anywhere near that long, there's days at most. It will probably be pretty much done within 3-4 days from now I reckon.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: fathertime on February 24, 2022, 04:50:35 PM
s. I think this was more about Russia extending its influence.  f8f353d74e07
 
..or at least shunt the US from using its money and clout on this side of the planet to further push Russia into a worse position.

Fathertime!
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: GQBlues on February 24, 2022, 05:00:12 PM
My fear would be that Putin would then invade the Eastern Bloc nations. I don't think this was ever really so much to do about NATO, that was most likely the pretext for Invasion along with the Donbass. I think this was more about Russia extending its influence. Apparently the Kremlin has said that they have no intention of occupying Ukraine earlier today so I think we are looking at regime change here along with other agreements and of course likely done land annexed by Russia. Russian troops are already moving in on Kiev and about to encircle it as I predicted:



Whatever Putin, or any other Russian leader, will or will not do had long come and gone. NATO was formed as a counter to the cold war's Warsaw Pact Alliance. The cold war is over, the soviet regime is gone and the Warsaw Pack Alliance had been long disbanded.


NATO should've been disbanded along with the dissolution of the soviet union. NATO had since only become a beast feeding upon itself and serving but a handful military elitists and uses it to market its arsenal of weapons.


Every European nations should be left alone to attend its own cultural and political direction without any further US engagement. I am sick and tired of the US's recent foreign policies pacifying every corporate greed or of those of the so-called alliance. It's all BS. Europe can look after its own and push their own sons and daughters on the frontline of these silly conflicts.   
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Trenchcoat on February 24, 2022, 05:35:57 PM


Whatever Putin, or any other Russian leader, will or will not do had long come and gone. NATO was formed as a counter to the cold war's Warsaw Pact Alliance. The cold war is over, the soviet regime is gone and the Warsaw Pack Alliance had been long disbanded.


NATO should've been disbanded along with the dissolution of the soviet union. NATO had since only become a beast feeding upon itself and serving but a handful military elitists and uses it to market its arsenal of weapons.


Every European nations should be left alone to attend its own cultural and political direction without any further US engagement. I am sick and tired of the US's recent foreign policies pacifying every corporate greed or of those of the so-called alliance. It's all BS. Europe can look after its own and push their own sons and daughters on the frontline of these silly conflicts.

In fairness I was arguing back last Summer that the time for NATO may have passed. Really I agree the EU should have stepped up to the plate and organised it's own military defence force. It's on its border this is all happening. I think the AUKUS Alliance we struck last Summer is a better strategic alliance that reflects our relative position. No point like you say in having to fight battles that are not on our doorstep. So I do think that NATO kind of ended up carrying the EU at something they should have been doing. Unfortunately it looks too late now, NATO are going to have to remain so long until (if ever) the ineffectual EU can get it's act together and cobble together an army.

Ever EU member state has an army but the best is probably France. I think Germany need to get over their two lost World Wars and build a strong army again, they'll be crucial if the Russians ever try to push further into Eastern Europe, get some good Nazis on our side lol.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Brillynt on February 24, 2022, 05:37:02 PM

You mean, like patriots wiping their asses with the Constitution?  8)

Less than the leftists have been doing for the past 50 years.  :deadhorse:
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: fathertime on February 24, 2022, 08:10:16 PM

NATO should've been disbanded along with the dissolution of the soviet union. NATO had since only become a beast feeding upon itself and serving but a handful military elitists and uses it to market its arsenal of weapons.
Having dozens of nations aligning against Russia would make them uncomfortable and rightfully so.  Having nations like the US try to impose it's will so close to Russia must also be aggravating.   

If the US thinks it can force regime change, then Russia may start to feel the same way, and use the same strategies to the extent they can.   First the US will try to starve countries out (Cuba, Venezuela) good examples.  That has been failing, maybe while Russia stomps over Ukraine the US will try to stomp a bit on Venezuela or something.  We (The US) have had the luxury to use finances to ruin a nation, Russia doesn't have that weapon in it's arsenal and takes care of matters differently.   

Fathertime! 
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: JohnDearGreen on February 24, 2022, 08:30:55 PM

This is apparently the jet of the ace Ukraine pilot nicknamed "The Ghost of Kyiv" who downed SIX Russian aircraft during the first day of fighting.
[/size]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qSjbr6qhGPA
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Chelseaboy on February 24, 2022, 11:05:44 PM
Heavy fighting in Sumy taking place.


Ukraine claims to have shot down a Russian aircraft over Kiev....they certainly shot something down and it sadly fell into an apartment building.


Russian troops were landed on an airfield by Helicopters just outside Kiev in an attempt at taking over Kiev quickly,but the Ukrainian forces defeated them after regaining the airfield.


Ukraine now has more Stinger Missiles....given by Latvia two days ago...that's what defeated Russia in Afghanistan.





For the Brits among us...Norwich City Hall has lit up in the colours of Ukraine as a display of support for Ukraine.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Trenchcoat on February 24, 2022, 11:38:53 PM
Heavy fighting in Sumy taking place.


Ukraine claims to have shot down a Russian aircraft over Kiev....they certainly shot something down and it sadly fell into an apartment building.


Russian troops were landed on an airfield by Helicopters just outside Kiev in an attempt at taking over Kiev quickly,but the Ukrainian forces defeated them after regaining the airfield.


Ukraine now has more Stinger Missiles....given by Latvia two days ago...that's what defeated Russia in Afghanistan.


For the Brits among us...Norwich City Hall has lit up in the colours of Ukraine as a display of support for Ukraine.

Apparently Kyiv has been intercepting missile attacks also. I'm quite surprised Ukraine seems to be doing so well in the air where they were considered weak. Not sure if they are doing as well on the ground yet. I expected a but more heavier air attacks by Russia before they moved in ground troops but Russia seems to be moving in ground troops and relying more on that instead. If those NLAW's work then Ukraine needs to start using them.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-europe-60517447

Sumy under attack and Kyiv coming under attack also.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Trenchcoat on February 24, 2022, 11:43:28 PM
This is apparently the jet of the ace Ukraine pilot nicknamed "The Ghost of Kyiv" who downed SIX Russian aircraft during the first day of fighting.
[/size]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qSjbr6qhGPA

If Ukraine really have an Ace jet fighter pilot who did that then that's what they really need at this pressing hour. Difficult to believe that one pilot can shoot down 6 enemy planes especially as Russia is thought to have the much stronger airforce.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Chelseaboy on February 24, 2022, 11:49:35 PM
Looks like he's doing a victory fly-past there. :)


By the way Ukraine has better tanks than Russia has..although less of them.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Chelseaboy on February 25, 2022, 12:00:53 AM
Apparently Kyiv has been intercepting missile attacks also. I'm quite surprised Ukraine seems to be doing so well in the air where they were considered weak. Not sure if they are doing as well on the ground yet. I expected a but more heavier air attacks by Russia before they moved in ground troops but Russia seems to be moving in ground troops and relying more on that instead. If those NLAW's work then Ukraine needs to start using them.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-europe-60517447 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-europe-60517447)

Sumy under attack and Kyiv coming under attack also.


If Russia's aircraft are indeed being shot down as claimed then Putin will have  to abandon air attacks and rely on his ground troops...carnage awaits them i suspect.


Many people thought this would be a quick battle,but watching the news outlets this morning people are now saying it's going to be a long and bloody war as the Ukrainians are holding their ground and fighting...as i predicted they would.


A former USA Ambassador to Ukraine said this morning that if Ukraine holds off Russia for three months then Russia will be defeated.


Demonstrations all over Russia now in fifty cities against the war,with 2000 arrests yesterday...the Russian people are not with Mad Vlad.


There is a lot of misinformation going on though ...Russia claims Ukrainian forces in Sumy downed their weapons and surrendered....Ukraine claims their troops are holding off the Russian troops...which is true ?


Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Chelseaboy on February 25, 2022, 12:18:33 AM
Ukrainian flag now being flown over Downing street alongside the Union flag after the building was lit up in Ukraine's colours last night.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Chelseaboy on February 25, 2022, 12:33:09 AM
The ghost of Kyiv shot down 2 SU-35's,1 SU-27,1 MIG-29 and 2 SU-25's it's claimed.


Ben Wallace this morning says the Russians have failed to take ANY of their objectives so far.


He confirms Russia has had more than 450 military personnel killed on the first day of fighting.,.with many Tanks,Helicopters and at least three Fighter aircraft lost.


It was Spetznaz special forces...Russia's elite troops..that the Ukrainian troops routed at the airfield near Kiev...as confirmed by Ben Wallace.


Pro-Russians separatists have admitted they're meeting stiff resistance from Ukrainian troops in eastern Ukraine.


There seems to be a groundswell of public opinion,including from our media,that we should be sending troops in to support Ukraine....unlike in previous wars when we HAVE sent troops in.


No doubt the bravery and calmness of the Ukrainian people coming onto our news channels and talking is garnering UK public support for us sending troops in.


Brits don't like being threatened either...as Putin did yesterday


Ben Wallace looked flustered when pushed by the BBC this morning about putting our boots on the ground,whilst saying it won't happen.

Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Davo on February 25, 2022, 03:44:23 AM
http://www.reddit.com/r/CombatFootage/

This is a reddit sub forum...... Warning!! It has very graphic footage that you won’t see in main stream media.....  The most shocking personally isn’t the most graphic, but if true constitutes a war crime..... A Russian tank deviates from its course to target and drive over top of a moving civilian car.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Trenchcoat on February 25, 2022, 05:11:17 AM
http://www.reddit.com/r/CombatFootage/

This is a reddit sub forum...... Warning!! It has very graphic footage that you won’t see in main stream media.....  The most shocking personally isn’t the most graphic, but if true constitutes a war crime..... A Russian tank deviates from its course to target and drive over top of a moving civilian car.

That's interesting to see how things are shaping up on the ground Davo, helps to fill out the picture a but more from the news networks. Looks like both sides are suffering casualties, the Ukrainian casualties were expected but the Russian casualties unexpected. For the looks of things Russia has been losing armour and tanks, about 30 tanks so far apparently and it's still early days, many artillery loses too. Looks to be that the Russians are going about the invasion in a clumsy manner by using the old skool method of trying to take over towns and cities on the ground and going directly in. To my mind they would have been better of encircling them from a distance and cutting them off.

Russian troops have entered the northern suburbs of Kiev again using the same ham handed approach. It looks like as a result it's turning into a longer and bloodier affair. In the video on that Reddit forum the signs of devastation of shelled out buildings can clearly be seen. If it carries on at that rate Ukraine will be a shelled out mess within a few days. Potentially this could turn into a drawn out affair grinding down the Russians but wreaking havoc on Ukraine.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Chelseaboy on February 25, 2022, 05:44:00 AM
That's interesting to see how things are shaping up on the ground Davo, helps to fill out the picture a but more from the news networks. Looks like both sides are suffering casualties, the Ukrainian casualties were expected but the Russian casualties unexpected. For the looks of things Russia has been losing armour and tanks, about 30 tanks so far apparently and it's still early days, many artillery loses too. Looks to be that the Russians are going about the invasion in a clumsy manner by using the old skool method of trying to take over towns and cities on the ground and going directly in. To my mind they would have been better of encircling them from a distance and cutting them off.

Russian troops have entered the northern suburbs of Kiev again using the same ham handed approach. It looks like as a result it's turning into a longer and bloodier affair. In the video on that Reddit forum the signs of devastation of shelled out buildings can clearly be seen. If it carries on at that rate Ukraine will be a shelled out mess within a few days. Potentially this could turn into a drawn out affair grinding down the Russians but wreaking havoc on Ukraine.


Ham-handed is the right word.


There's never been anything smart or sophisticated about Russia at war.


"Bash and smash "like a load of Cavemen, is their method of operation.


The 2000 protesters in Russia arrested yesterday have been charged with treason.


They'll probably be sent to the salt mines in Siberia by Mad Vlad.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Chelseaboy on February 25, 2022, 05:57:46 AM
Good news the EU is now going to freeze the assets of Mad Vlad and his henchman Lavrov in Europe. :)
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: JohnDearGreen on February 25, 2022, 06:21:04 AM

More good sites:
http://u24.ua/
http://fakty.com.ua/ua/

The occupier suffers significant losses. The headquarters of the Ground Forces of Ukraine reported new data on the number of dead invaders who invaded the territory of Ukraine on February 24. As reported on the Facebook page of the headquarters, this figure is already more than a thousand (http://ukraine.segodnya.ua/ukraine/takih-poter-u-rf-eshche-ne-bylo-vsu-nazvali-kolichestvo-pogibshih-okkupantov-1605264.html) .
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: GQBlues on February 25, 2022, 06:39:11 AM
The Talibans are now calling for seizure of hostilities and maintain peace with Ukraine and Russia. They are very concerned for civilian lives.  :o

http://www.newsweek.com/taliban-calls-russia-ukraine-peace-fear-civilians-afghanistan-1682616?amp=1

Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Patagonie on February 25, 2022, 06:40:12 AM
For the moment the full-scale invasion hasn't started yet.
This is just a special operation.
But as Ukraine resists more casualties and destruction will come.
Urban warfare will push more civilians into the casualties column and will force RF to bring more military power into action.
Consequently more losses... Loop.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Patagonie on February 25, 2022, 06:40:56 AM
The Talibans are now calling for seizure of hostilities and maintain peace with Ukraine and Russia. They are very concerned for civilian lives.  :o

http://www.newsweek.com/taliban-calls-russia-ukraine-peace-fear-civilians-afghanistan-1682616?amp=1 (http://www.newsweek.com/taliban-calls-russia-ukraine-peace-fear-civilians-afghanistan-1682616?amp=1)

Incredible!
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: tfcrew on February 25, 2022, 07:00:39 AM
One of the funnier cartoons I've seen. 
I'm going to have to try greeting clients in that position at my shop.
I wouldn't recommend it.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: tfcrew on February 25, 2022, 07:04:23 AM
The Talibans are now calling for seizure of hostilities and maintain peace with Ukraine and Russia. They are very concerned for civilian lives.
Isn't a seizure when someone falls down and starts shaking and stuff?   
 
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Chelseaboy on February 25, 2022, 07:05:37 AM
Some robotic bloke from the Russian military just said Russian troops took that airfield outside Kiev yesterday ,killing 200 Ukrainian troops and suffering no casualties.


I find those figures highly unlikely and the Russians have shown themselves to be liars.


Both countries can be frugal with the truth...so who knows what is true and what is false.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: GQBlues on February 25, 2022, 07:22:01 AM
Isn't a seizure when someone falls down and starts shaking and stuff?


Yes it is. Whacha expect, it’s 5 AM and haven’t had my smoothie. :P

Hillary Clinton had come out blaming Trump for the current fate of Ukraine. Now, that’s what I call an alternate reality.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Chelseaboy on February 25, 2022, 07:25:20 AM
I very much doubt that Putin would have invaded Ukraine if Trump was still President of the USA.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Chelseaboy on February 25, 2022, 07:51:28 AM
That short video of the "ghost of Kyiv " has been shown to be false by the BBC.


A lot of the video's out there of the war in Ukraine are false,although the one of the Russian tank deliberately crushing the car with the motorist still inside was true.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: fathertime on February 25, 2022, 08:04:58 AM
Good news the EU is now going to freeze the assets of Mad Vlad and his henchman Lavrov in Europe. :)
I'm not sure if what you stated is accurate, but I would say that isn't good news.    We (The US) started freezing Japanese assets prior to pearl harbor.  Japan considered it an act of war. 

Fathertime!   
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Muzh on February 25, 2022, 08:09:20 AM
Less than the leftists have been doing for the past 50 years.  :deadhorse:


Last reply on this:


It must be eating your insides that these "leftists" are the only ones fighting to preserve the constitution and democracy.  8)
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Chelseaboy on February 25, 2022, 08:34:41 AM
I'm not sure if what you stated is accurate, but I would say that isn't good news.    We (The US) started freezing Japanese assets prior to pearl harbor.  Japan considered it an act of war. 

Fathertime!


Just been confirmed on the BBC.


It's also in the Financial Times and Forbes.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Trenchcoat on February 25, 2022, 08:40:55 AM
Apparently, the battle to gain control of Kiev by the Ruskies may well go down like this:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10551463/Russian-plan-Kyiv-revealed-intelligence.html
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Muzh on February 25, 2022, 08:57:05 AM
Russian prisoner in Kharkiv confessing commander ordered to shoot civilians.


http://www.facebook.com/1001283403/videos/657971581973233/
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: GQBlues on February 25, 2022, 09:24:00 AM
Unfortunately, the US these days have but a few, reliable journalists for the public to get unvarnished reliable news and reports. Hell, even social media driven by the big tech are highly unreliable.


So if any of the news outlet/s outside of the US have current reports about any NATO ally (aside from the US of course) had actually, or is beginning to, sent their nation's young further into eastern Europe to reinforce member nations closest to the hostilities. Do oblige.


For the life of me. all that's reported here in the US is sleepy Joe sending thousands of US troops to eastern Europe, but I don't see reports of France, Belgium, the UK, doing the same. I know a month or so ago, the UK did consider sending maybe a hundred, but that was before the invasion.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: GQBlues on February 25, 2022, 09:43:47 AM
So the alliance, after months of declaring there will be serious and severe economic sanction will be levied upon Russia if it ever invade Ukraine, most notably - depriving Russia from usage of SWIFT.


Now that the chicken had come to roost, it's evident that was merely a giant bluff. Germany and Belgium would much prefer preserving their nation's economic state than to administer their loyalty to the 'unity of an alliance'.


Interesting. Money still trumps integrity.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Muzh on February 25, 2022, 10:34:27 AM
So the alliance, after months of declaring there will be serious and severe economic sanction will be levied upon Russia if it ever invade Ukraine, most notably - depriving Russia from usage of SWIFT.


Now that the chicken had come to roost, it's evident that was merely a giant bluff. Germany and Belgium would much prefer preserving their nation's economic state than to administer their loyalty to the 'unity of an alliance'.


Interesting. Money still trumps integrity.


SWIFT is a lot more to that. All nations (about 11,000 financial institutions) rely on SWIFT.  In addition, SWIFT is NOT governed by anyone, it is an agreement between institutions.


Let's say that the majority of these institutions agree to deny Russia, which they can't. Russia has their own version of SWIFT, albeit not that efficient (for many reasons.) This would strengthen Russia's SWIFT which would undermine the West's ability to do finance. Not a good thing. Except for those who would love to see this country go to hell. And I'm not talking about the Russians or Chinese.  :P
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Muzh on February 25, 2022, 10:42:35 AM
http://fb.watch/boPDzznZ5a/ (http://fb.watch/boPDzznZ5a/)  (Warning: very graphic)
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: GQBlues on February 25, 2022, 11:01:29 AM

SWIFT is a lot more to that. All nations (about 11,000 financial institutions) rely on SWIFT.  In addition, SWIFT is NOT governed by anyone, it is an agreement between institutions.


Let's say that the majority of these institutions agree to deny Russia, which they can't. Russia has their own version of SWIFT, albeit not that efficient (for many reasons.) This would strengthen Russia's SWIFT which would undermine the West's ability to do finance. Not a good thing. Except for those who would love to see this country go to hell. And I'm not talking about the Russians or Chinese.  :P


Then one wonders why even table this as a major part of their planned sanctioning tool? Report had it that Germany stood to lose as much as 150 Billion dollars if they did in fact complied to it. Sleepy Joe yesterday, when asked why, simply said 'we we're asked not to include this as part of the package (sanction)'. Did they not realize the fallacy using this as a threat against Russia?
 
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Muzh on February 25, 2022, 12:20:59 PM
Why don't you ask that at your next WH intelligence briefing?
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: GQBlues on February 25, 2022, 12:25:20 PM
Why don't you ask that at your next WH intelligence briefing?


Well I thought this was a reason you rode along as a call for cavalry?
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Trenchcoat on February 25, 2022, 01:00:21 PM
Update so far:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10550799/Ukraine-hits-airfield-Russia-missile-strike-blow-Putin-downing-six-helicopters.html

Looks like Putin's troops are sustaining a lot of losses. Ukraine some as well but it looks like Russia moreso. Apparently Russian troops are in a Kyivian suburb five miles north of the city centre. Whether the Russian advance will ground to a halt before it reaches the city centre who knows but they seem to be making slow progress. Many Russian helicopters and planes shot down and many Russian tanks destroyed with the anti tank rocket launchers the US & UK gave them.

All in all I kind of expected the Russian forces to go about it differently than this. They knew the Ukrainians had been given anti tank stuff yet they thrust all of their tanks and artillery in the line of fire when to my mind they should have thrown all their air power at them first then encircled the cities and cut of supply routes. To my mind there just doesn't seem any real thought or much planning at all by the Russians they just seem to think they can overpower the Ukrainians by brute force. I'm just not sure what the Russians are doing with all of their army whether they are throwing all they've got against the Ukrainians. If the Ukrainians can keep holding out against the Russians then who knows.

At least it's good to see the equipment we gave them paying off, if they can grind the Russians down enough it might be enough to put the Russians off.

Putin meanwhile is trying to get the Ukrainian military to overthrow Zelensky. Whether this is his signal to those within Ukraine that are willing to work with the Russians to jump into action or just desperation who knows, we'll find out soon I guess.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: JohnDearGreen on February 25, 2022, 01:25:31 PM
they ran out of fuel...
http://ukraine.segodnya.ua/ukraine/ukraina-otstoyala-konotop-okkupant-pones-sokrushitelnye-poteri-1605362.html (http://ukraine.segodnya.ua/ukraine/ukraina-otstoyala-konotop-okkupant-pones-sokrushitelnye-poteri-1605362.html)

NATO to supply air defense systems
http://ukraine.segodnya.ua/ukraine/nato-soglasheniya-s-rossiey-bolshe-ne-rabotayut-ukraine-predostavim-sistemy-pvo-1605360.html (http://ukraine.segodnya.ua/ukraine/nato-soglasheniya-s-rossiey-bolshe-ne-rabotayut-ukraine-predostavim-sistemy-pvo-1605360.html)
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Chelseaboy on February 25, 2022, 03:40:12 PM



Sky news interviewing Russians in Moscow tonight ..and they're saying for the first time in their lives they feel ashamed to be Russian..except for one old bat who said the reporter was lying about Kiev and Kharkiv being bombed by Russia.


Once again Mad Vlad pleading with the Ukrainian troops to turn on their drug-taking neo Nazi  :rolleyes:  President...the response was injured Ukrainian troops in hospitals saying they're going to get  out of their beds to fight the Russians again.


Russia has so far failed to take any major Ukraine cities.





Interestingly China didn't support Russia in the UN Security Council vote just now...seems they could be turning their back on Mad Vlad.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Trenchcoat on February 25, 2022, 05:33:38 PM
Kyivians bracing themselves for an all out assault on their Capital tonight by Russian troops. They've basically got to throw the lot at them and hope they can hold the Russians off from reaching the city centre and taking Kyiv. If they can do that then there's a chance they can hold them off for quite some time. We'll see later in the morning how it went.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: fathertime on February 25, 2022, 05:56:12 PM
Kyivians bracing themselves for an all out assault on their Capital tonight by Russian troops. They've basically got to throw the lot at them and hope they can hold the Russians off from reaching the city centre and taking Kyiv. If they can do that then there's a chance they can hold them off for quite some time. We'll see later in the morning how it went.
I don't see a circumstance where Russia doesn't get what they want.  They will just ramp up further and further to whatever point is necessary to reach their goal.   If that is the case, life is going to become worse and worse for the Ukrainians that do battle.   
Another speculation is the harder they have to work and lose lives, the more they are going to decide ultimately take.    I don't know what their end game is at this point. 

My neighbor came up to me today with a solution, he said the US should give Russia 12 hours to surrender or we carpet bomb all their troops.  I just listened and thought to myself I'm glad he isn't in charge. 

Fathertime! 
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Trenchcoat on February 25, 2022, 06:18:56 PM
I don't see a circumstance where Russia doesn't get what they want.  They will just ramp up further and further to whatever point is necessary to reach their goal.   If that is the case, life is going to become worse and worse for the Ukrainians that do battle.   
Another speculation is the harder they have to work and lose lives, the more they are going to decide ultimately take.    I don't know what their end game is at this point. 

My neighbor came up to me today with a solution, he said the US should give Russia 12 hours to surrender or we carpet bomb all their troops.  I just listened and thought to myself I'm glad he isn't in charge. 

Fathertime!

I think you're right on all of that FT, Russia can keep pulling troops and sending them to the Ukrainian front, they can call up conscripts although I doubt how willing and like you say if it ends up a bloody tough long fight then Russia will want to take more as a result. Only possible upside is possible Russia is using its best forces on this and leaving the rest behind on guard duty until needing to be brought to the Ukrainian Front. That would make sense and historically how the Russian Army has been composed back to WWI at least, some good troops then a lot who aren't but they bulk out the Russian Army in numbers to make it look impressive statistically. If sone of their best troops are having a hard time if it and losses are mounting then their not so good troops are likely to fair even worse.

The Ukrainians still no doubt have a lot of Russian troops to chew through but on the plus side they haven't been taking greater losses particularly as it seems so they can afford to fight on longer. If Ukraine gets shelled out bad then Russia may not wish to take so much of it on that front. I think that potentially if Ukraine can keep fighting the way they have been and keep it up long term then Russia will start to strain under the weight of it all and they'll look to quit/get rid of Putin. The way this is going Ukraine could quite easily end up the new Lebanon.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Boethius on February 25, 2022, 08:13:24 PM
We have been texted with relatives in Kyiv.  Internet and electricity are intermittent.  Our relatives live in  what is considered central Kyiv, though not in our understanding of the centre, it's about 15 minutes from Khreshchatyk.  The live between an airport and a rail centre.  There has been bombing and shooting.  The air is filled with smoke, and the shooting has been going on for over a day.  Children in the building are crying.  They've been told to stay indoors, and keep lights off.  It's very bad.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: ML on February 25, 2022, 08:29:15 PM
Wife owns two condominium (called apartments there) units in Kyiv.
One rented out and other occupied by a relative family.

Relative woman and children have gone further west to stay with grandparents.

Relative man has joined volunteer Ukrainian army and will bear the brunt of Russian attack from Belarus.

Two of wife's friends here are from Romania and they have told that their families in Romania will take in her family if they want to come over there.

Quite great of them, but no immediate plans to take them up on that offer.

Apparently it takes a couple of days to get through the border anyway.

If her condo units are destroyed, that will be around 650K USD.

Maybe the most expensive one will be spared as it's in second building  away from US Embassy.  Don't think Putin will want to hit it; but anything can happen (falling aircraft), etc.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Chelseaboy on February 26, 2022, 02:17:02 AM
The former world heavy weight champion Vitali Klitschko,now Mayor of Kyiv, has said there are no Russian troops in Kiev and that Russian troops tried to enter Kiev last night and were "neutralised".


Many Ukrainian men who've been living outside Ukraine are now driving back to Ukraine to fight the invading Russians.


Big protests against Putin taking place all around the World.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Patagonie on February 26, 2022, 03:31:14 AM
An attack in Kharkiv has been repelled, RF didn't enter the city.
Dnipro has not suffered from attack in the west part.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Trenchcoat on February 26, 2022, 04:31:49 AM
Woke up this morning to see that Kiev had survived the night and repelled Russian attempts to further enter the city. One of the more modern looking apartment blocks looking the worse for wear though with part of its midsection blown out. If things keep up like this Kyiv will soon be looking like Beirut, all they would need is for Kate Adie to put in a long overdue appearance.

Looks like Putin is now threatening Finland & Sweden. Putin seems to have gotten very arrogant no doubt after getting his way in Russia all these years by crushing dissent. If I were Finland & Sweden I would put in an application to join NATO today and stick their finger up to Putin. Putin is nothing more than a bully boy who thinks he can push everyone around.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10553723/Putin-turns-attention-Finland-Sweden-Kremlin-official-warns-nations.html
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: JohnDearGreen on February 26, 2022, 06:22:39 AM

Putin running out of missiles?

"Putin is fierce. He was sure that it would be an easy walk. There are not enough missiles. Enough for three or four days - the ceiling. They are protected. There are no weapons. The Tula plant and the other two plants of (oligarch) Rotenberg cannot fulfill orders for weapons. Rifles and bullets. Physically. There are not enough weapons. The next weapon can really be received in three or four months. And then there are no raw materials. Previously, supplies were from Slovenia mainly, Finland and Germany. They are now blocked , " says Goncharenko.

http://ukraine.segodnya.ua/ukraine/putin-lyutuet-u-rf-zakanchivayutsya-rakety-i-oruzhie-1605445.html
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Chelseaboy on February 26, 2022, 08:40:44 AM
27 countries,including the USA and UK have agreed to send more military aid,including lethal weapons, to Ukraine,including Germany who are sending 400 RPG's.








 
A couple of human stories : An attractive blond lady lawyer in her thirties in Kiev has armed herself with the full intension of killing Russian troops.
The newscasters "Aren't you afraid "?
Her " It's not important how my story ends..what's important is that Ukraine is a free country ".


A young Ukrainian lady living in the UK has just received a phone call from her Afghan veteran father to tell her that he's got her mother and  sister to the Polish border and they're safe.


Him " Now i go back to Kiev "


Her " Why "?


Him " To fight the invading Russian troops "


Her " But dad you're 61 and you can barely walk..how can you fight "?


Him " Then i'll crawl and fight "


The girl then breaks down in tears ,while the newscasters are in bits :'(
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: JohnDearGreen on February 26, 2022, 09:14:04 AM
You're fired!
http://world.segodnya.ua/world/russia/provalil-vtorzhenie-putin-snyal-nachalnika-genshtaba-nardep-1605502.html
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Chelseaboy on February 26, 2022, 09:55:58 AM
Riho Terras the former Estonian Defence Chief has received intel from a Ukrainian Officer about a meeting in Putin's lair in the Urals.Oligarch's convened there so no one would flee.


Putin is furious .he thought that the whole war would be easy and everything would be done in 1-4 days.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Chelseaboy on February 26, 2022, 10:12:39 AM
Massive queues in Kiev now ,lining up for AK47's,including loads of hotties.


Sky talked to one of the blond hotties who's from Dnipro.


"At first we were scared but now we want to fight....fight like hell " she said.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Trenchcoat on February 26, 2022, 12:03:00 PM
Zelensky wants Ukraine to join the EU immediately and for the EU to cut Russia off on the Swift payment system but gets VETOED on both. Joining the EU I can understand since an attack on one is considered an attack on all so would push the EU into war, plus Ukraine's economy is now way too messed up for the EU to take them on especially with the EU's current economic woes.

The Swift payment system I think the EU are dead wrong to Veto at least those member states that did. As the Latvian PM rightly said some people are concerned about losing a bit of their money while other people are losing their lives. Tend to find that in these situations I think that while some people are sacrificing their lives other people are ignorant to that and don't want to help out in the slightest.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10554837/President-Zelensky-pushes-Ukraine-join-EU-day-Russian-invasion.html

UK & the PM are right behind Ukraine and Boris backs a ban on Swift payments for Russia and rightly so.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Trenchcoat on February 26, 2022, 01:23:06 PM
Massive queues in Kiev now ,lining up for AK47's,including loads of hotties.


Sky talked to one of the blond hotties who's from Dnipro.


"At first we were scared but now we want to fight....fight like hell " she said.

My suspicion is that these hotties may just be using it to pose for their instawhore pics, lol.

Seriously though I doubt if any will end up on the front line, they'll probably be assigned behind the lines sentry duty stuff where they can pose it up some more.

From the reports the gun shops are doing a brisk trade with queuing out the door. That's those who can get their hands on a free one I guess. Arms dealers no doubt cleaning up from all of this.

With the main bulk of Russia's army now approaching Kiev it looks like it's going to amount to a fierce show down. I think many Kyivians have been buoyed on by seeing that the Russian Army can be stopped and now many people are joining in on the fight. That gives Ukraine a good fighting chance of survival. If they can grind the Russian advance to a halt, bog it down and demoralise it by robbing Putin of a quick victory then I think a lot of heart will go out of the Russian occupiers.

Taking out as much of Russia's Armour, Artillery and Airforce will degrade their ability a lot and that's where Russia could end up bogged down in a war where it ends up losing any chance of advancing. Next few days could see some real heavy fighting in Ukraine I reckon.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Trenchcoat on February 26, 2022, 02:29:06 PM
This report from Mariupol of Ukrainian Soldiers gives a good account of the realities of war I think. Doesn't look like any amputees here but some quiet badly injured and of course that can happen:

http://news.sky.com/story/ukraine-invasion-horrific-day-at-hospital-treating-injured-soldiers-in-mariupol-as-doctors-appeal-for-more-nato-help-12551535

I recall a while back, a few years ago that one poster here told us about a Ukrainian guy who lost a leg in the conflict in the East of Ukraine. He ended up unemployed and homeless with little in the way of economic support from the Ukrainian State. It's why I think decisions on what to do by those in Ukraine need to be considered carefully as joining to fight can have bad consequences for the individual, that said I think a lot of Ukrainians are going to have to stand up and fight if they are going to win this one. Ukrainians all cowering in basements, apartments or fleeing for the border isn't going to win it fir them.

The Ukrainian Soldiers in the video seemed to be thinking that they can't hold out much longer, a few more days or so. They're calling on NATO, the EU etc that they hoped to join but didn't to come to their aid. I personally don't believe either made any promises or commitments. I personally think it was Ukrainians who set themselves on a path to join without first making sure they had anything solid from either that they could join, a timeframe, etc. I believe that Ukraine put too much stock in joining either or both of these organisations without much to go on and that was the fault of the Ukrainian government on their part. I don't know about other Forum members but while I support Ukraine's cause I don't believe we should get directly involved as it really is their fight rather than ours. I think we should stand with Ukraine in supplying weapons, aid and sanctions but it really is down to them at the end of the day for as many of them as feel they wish to, to take up arms and fight their fight.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Jumper1 on February 26, 2022, 03:04:20 PM
My suspicion is that these hotties may just be using it to pose for their instawhore pics, lol.

Seriously though I doubt if any will end up on the front line, they'll probably be assigned behind the lines sentry duty stuff where they can pose it up some more.

Or they might be the next
Lyudmila Pavlichenko.

Ukrainian women aren't exactly wall flowers TC.
If the makeup and high heels throws you ,remember those can change in less than a few minutes.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Trenchcoat on February 26, 2022, 03:33:32 PM
Or they might be the next
Lyudmila Pavlichenko.

Ukrainian women aren't exactly wall flowers TC.
If the makeup and high heels throws you ,remember those can change in less than a few minutes.

While not all Ukrainian girls are pretty I think there are a higher than average amount of them are compared to the UK. Now don't get me wrong UK girls would pull the same stunt posing for their Instagram page in military fatigues then either end up in a passive role or scarper, so much for gender equality lol.

In any case at the moment I think those board members who have Russian partners are in hiding from this board, maybe we should ask Dan if he can rename this forum Ukrainian Women Discussion instead ;D
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Chelseaboy on February 26, 2022, 03:49:21 PM


In any case at the moment I think those board members who have Russian partners are in hiding from this board, maybe we should ask Dan if he can rename this forum Ukrainian Women Discussion instead ;D


GQBlues is still posting..so not all the board members with Russian partners are in hiding.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Chelseaboy on February 26, 2022, 03:51:24 PM
Zelensky wants Ukraine to join the EU immediately and for the EU to cut Russia off on the Swift payment system but gets VETOED on both. Joining the EU I can understand since an attack on one is considered an attack on all so would push the EU into war, plus Ukraine's economy is now way too messed up for the EU to take them on especially with the EU's current economic woes.

The Swift payment system I think the EU are dead wrong to Veto at least those member states that did. As the Latvian PM rightly said some people are concerned about losing a bit of their money while other people are losing their lives. Tend to find that in these situations I think that while some people are sacrificing their lives other people are ignorant to that and don't want to help out in the slightest.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10554837/President-Zelensky-pushes-Ukraine-join-EU-day-Russian-invasion.html (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10554837/President-Zelensky-pushes-Ukraine-join-EU-day-Russian-invasion.html)

UK & the PM are right behind Ukraine and Boris backs a ban on Swift payments for Russia and rightly so.


The EU.UK,USA and Canada are now stopping selected Russian Banks from using SWIFT.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Jumper1 on February 26, 2022, 04:00:38 PM
Well,my point was not about relative appearances,it was that the women from Ukraine specifically have stood out in the past in times of war in combat roles.
Back when in the west it was not even permitted.
To think that some today within the crucible of war wouldn't be up to the task because they are attractive is funny thinking.
They have as much to lose as anyone there and their past shows a willingness and ability to fight well.

 Out of millions of UW, recruit  614 Lyudmilas and you just took out 190,000 oppostion forces ..
While completely unrealistic to actually occur ,let her skill and courage under fire in two of the worlds more  bloody battles sink in.





Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Chelseaboy on February 26, 2022, 04:08:59 PM
While not all Ukrainian girls are pretty I think there are a higher than average amount of them are compared to the UK.



I'd dispute that.


I've only visited Kiev and i wasn't overly impressed with the beauty of the women there during the daytime...you'd see far more beauties in London walking round during the day.


Granted i didn't see any fat young women like you see here in Britain..but seriously only a couple of women caught my eye as stunners in the three days i was there.


I remember a forum member on here or another forum had the same issue in Odessa..he plaintively asked  "where are all the hotties i keep hearing about" ?


That Ukrainian Anastasia date blonde girl who was scamming the black guy on 90 Day Fiance is a typical example...when i first saw her instagram photo's and the video she sent him on his phone my first reaction was ..she's hot.


But then when i saw her in a coffee shop with two of her friends in a later episode ..without all her war paint on..i thought naahhh i don't fancy any of them.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Patagonie on February 26, 2022, 05:06:51 PM

I'd dispute that.


I've only visited Kiev and i wasn't overly impressed with the beauty of the women there during the daytime...you'd see far more beauties in London walking round during the day.


Granted i didn't see any fat young women like you see here in Britain..but seriously only a couple of women caught my eye as stunners in the three days i was there.


I remember a forum member on here or another forum had the same issue in Odessa..he plaintively asked  "where are all the hotties i keep hearing about" ?


That Ukrainian Anastasia date blonde girl who was scamming the black guy on 90 Day Fiance is a typical example...when i first saw her instagram photo's and the video she sent him on his phone my first reaction was ..she's hot.


But then when i saw her in a coffee shop with two of her friends in a later episode ..without all her war paint on..i thought naahhh i don't fancy any of them.
Most of them are in expansive SUV or have already moved out. So you don't see them in the streets. Or they go some expensive restaurants or sports clubs you have barely any chance to know.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: ML on February 26, 2022, 05:42:47 PM
Wife tells that Ukraine has started a new tactic to try to get through to the Russian people what the Russian army is doing in Ukraine.

Captured Russian soldiers are forced to make video call to their parents in Russia and tell them that they are in Ukraine and have been captured.

Parents are stunned in that they say they didn't know their son was there and even that Russia was attacking Ukraine.

Let's hope these parents can spread the word.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: ML on February 26, 2022, 05:45:33 PM
Apparently there are growing protests in Russia about the invasion of Ukraine.

Let's hope these stories are true.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: ML on February 26, 2022, 05:48:46 PM
Where is the Russian version of  Claus von Stauffenberg now that he/she is needed ?
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Boethius on February 26, 2022, 06:04:32 PM
Apparently there are growing protests in Russia about the invasion of Ukraine.

Let's hope these stories are true.


I read that all protests are banned.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Hammer2722 on February 26, 2022, 06:06:23 PM
Where is the Russian version of  Claus von Stauffenberg now that he/she is needed ?


We can only hope!!!!
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Trenchcoat on February 26, 2022, 06:23:44 PM

GQBlues is still posting..so not all the board members with Russian partners are in hiding.

GQ you need to go into hiding ;)
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: ML on February 26, 2022, 06:37:36 PM

I read that all protests are banned.

Well sure, but they are happening.
420 arrested in Moscow today.
Question is:  Just how much they will grow.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Boethius on February 26, 2022, 07:22:45 PM
I don't think they will unless a significant number of Russian soldiers start coming home in body bags.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: GQBlues on February 26, 2022, 08:56:53 PM
GQ you need to go into hiding ;)

Hiding?!?  Wifey and I went along with friends and stood4Ukraine at a rally along Sta Monica Blvd. in West Hollywood today. It was a darn cold 68 degrees today too. I’d hazard to guess half of the people there are actually Russian. WHolly is a very strong FSU community in LA.

Part of me is so glad the Ukrainians are holding back the assault, but I pray this doesn’t cause madVlad to give the order to go on seek and destroy anything and everything. Hard to say it, but I think Zelensky is a dead man walking. I hope not, but much respect whether he lives or dies.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Jumper1 on February 26, 2022, 09:08:46 PM
68F,  brrrrr
Ok.i needed a laugh today, thanks
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: ML on February 26, 2022, 09:33:20 PM
I had never heard of this guy Smerconish before, but apparently he asks the 'question of the day' on his program.
A friend sent me this about his question today.
- - - - - - - - -
This morning (Sat 2/26) Smerconish's poll question was: 
"Should NATO go to war for Ukraine?"   
The results were jaw-dropping. 
Over 38,000 responses (usually he gets <half of that) with 77% saying yes and 23% no! 
Smerconish was gob-smacked that a CNN audience would react that way. 
Given the demonstrations in Russia, much less around the world, it looks like a lose/lose situation for Putin.  He could well end up like Saddam and Khadafy.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Bee Farmer on February 26, 2022, 10:19:05 PM
I don't think they will unless a significant number of Russian soldiers start coming home in body bags.

Figuratively, or literally? You are aware that Russia sent a mobile crematory to Ukraine, right?  No need for body bags anymore.  If the families are lucky, they will get the ashes of their sons.

I still think we should give Putin a taste of his own medicine.

We should cancel every Russian, Belorussian, and Chechnyan student visa, and give them 24 hours to leave the US or be arrested and put in one of the ICE concentration camps for illegal immigrants.  They should also be banned from coming back to the US for 3-5 years.  This destroys the possibility of getting a US education.
Anyone with Russian/Belorussian/Chechnyan citizenship should have their visa revoked and immediately deported.

The vast majority of the Russians in US universities are kids of the elites.  How many Russian businessmen are in the US?  Putin wants regime change?  You don't think all those kids and businessmen will be pissed about getting kicked out of the US because of Putin invading Ukraine and starting a war?

Putin says Ukraine was historically Russian.  It got created by WWII.  What about Koenigsberg/Kaliningrad?  It was formerly German, and the USSR got it as a war prize.  When the Soviet Union fell apart in '91, Russia got to keep Kaliningrad, because neither Lithuania or Poland claimed it.  (Kaliningrad is surrounded by NATO - so much for Putin's claim of keeping NATO from Russia's borders.)  Kaliningrad is home to the naval fleet, and is the center of Russian industry.  It also houses nuclear weapons that threaten Europe.  NATO should have a mass attack on Kaliningrad, and wipe it off the map.  Let Putin lose his naval base and Kaliningrad, and see if he doesn't change his tune on Ukraine.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Boethius on February 26, 2022, 10:41:45 PM
68F,  brrrrr
Ok.i needed a laugh today, thanks

Yes, :ROFL: .   When hubby first saw this, after his first full winter here, he was shocked.  We lived near the university, and all the Canadian students were in t-shirts and shorts at 0C.  Now, he doesn't bat an eye.


It was -3C or 26F here today.  Young people were out in t shirts and shorts.

Figuratively, or literally?

I meant figuratively.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: GQBlues on February 26, 2022, 10:55:53 PM
I don’t even know why these guys are fighting (Russian / Ukrainian ). Even in the heat of war, they seem so casual with each other.

Funny, in a strange kind of way.

http://youtu.be/14gVDF2b1vA
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Admin on February 26, 2022, 10:58:59 PM
Written in January of this year, this article seems prescient at this point in time .... http://www.csis.org/analysis/russias-possible-invasion-ukraine
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Trenchcoat on February 27, 2022, 12:21:16 AM
I don't think it would be a good idea for NATO to get involved, it would risk spreading the conflict and NATO possibly having to go onto Russian lands. Then we would be the invader and it could legitimize mad Vlad's claim of the threat of NATO. In addition there would be a string risk of nuclear war and/or hyperthermal missiles being used by Russia.

The situation is best kept as it is localised to Ukraine. If Russia's troops get worn down and defeated there then that will likely bhave consequences for Putin & Russia. It will be seen as a fair cop and Russia will have to come to terms with Ukraine. It's a better position I think for Ukraine to go at it with Russia as after all they are the ones Putin has a beef with. Strategically it's better for us to supply Ukraine with weapons and all it needs to do the fighting. Even if they eventually lose if they put up a string enough fight it will degrade the Russian military and dissuade Russia from further conflicts elsewhere, that depends on the Ukrainians putting up stiff resistance for quite some time though. It really is their fight to my mind I don't buy it that other countries in Europe are next, Georgia & the Stans maybe. In Europe there is NATO and France and the UK have Nukes, the US have Nukes too so with the line drawn in the sand it's too risky for and Vlad to go there. Plus with how badly Russian Armies are doing in Ukraine at present they would be torn to shreds by NATO forces on our home turf. I think Ukraine has got this one and they'll have to fight their corner.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Trenchcoat on February 27, 2022, 12:20:45 AM
Kharkiv being attacked today, oil refinery & gas pipeline hit, lots of fire & smoke.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Bee Farmer on February 27, 2022, 12:43:27 AM
Trench, where's your balls?  You need to go find them, because you aren't wearing them.

That attitude is like seeing a woman getting raped, and not wanting to get involved because you might have to fight with the rapist.  Grow a pair.

A lady just sent me a video from an apartment window.  Russian tanks rolling down the street in Kyiv right now, and someone shooting at them with a rifle.

If NATO was there, they would have anti-tank guns to stop the tanks.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Chelseaboy on February 27, 2022, 02:50:25 AM
Germany now stepping up..lot's more military aid being sent to Ukraine....1000 anti-tank weapons and 500 Stinger missiles.


They've also stopped the ban on third parties sending German manufactured weapons to Ukraine.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Patagonie on February 27, 2022, 04:41:52 AM
Where is the Russian version of  Claus von Stauffenberg now that he/she is needed ?
I think that is the logical solution now.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Chelseaboy on February 27, 2022, 05:14:14 AM
Mayor of Kharkiv saying the area of Kharkiv now back in Ukrainian control,with news outlets showing film of a column of abandoned Russian armoured vehicles and Ukrainian troops stripping them out.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Trenchcoat on February 27, 2022, 05:40:38 AM
Trench, where's your balls?  You need to go find them, because you aren't wearing them.

That attitude is like seeing a woman getting raped, and not wanting to get involved because you might have to fight with the rapist.  Grow a pair.

A lady just sent me a video from an apartment window.  Russian tanks rolling down the street in Kyiv right now, and someone shooting at them with a rifle.

If NATO was there, they would have anti-tank guns to stop the tanks.

Ah you'll be off to Ukraine to fight as one of the many foreign fighters going there will you Bee Farmer? A 'War Tourist'?

Well it could get you the women if you survive and we've seen the Reddit link on here kindly provided by Davo I think it was of those that don't live to tell the tale. But don't let me stop you, you go if you want to.

I think with NATO you're not seeing the whole picture, sure NATO could destroy a lot of their Army reasonably easily but it doesn't stop there, Russia has chemical, thermal and nuclear weapons and there is no guarantee we can stop them. Russia still has thousands upon thousands of nukes that can destroy the world several times over. We can't be assure that we can stop them all or that they won't reach us to say nothing of the radioactive fallout. At best if we destroy Russia's army we may agree a ceasefire and a resolution bin Ukraine's favour as to press on and try to capture Moscow etc would like make Russia use Nukes and hence MAD. I don't think we really want WWIII with chemical, thermal, etc misery just over Ukraine. Ukraine can fight its own battles.

That battle btw may apparently go on years:

http://news.sky.com/story/ukraine-conflict-could-last-years-and-uk-needs-to-be-prepared-for-a-very-long-haul-says-foreign-secretary-liz-truss-12553040

So visiting Ukraine may be off for us guys and my Odessa Dreaming over. Apparently in the UK we are going to set up an International Force comprised of any of the cowards who fleed Ukraine but might change their mind and send them back in to fight.

With all the weapons now being sent to Ukraine they've got everything they need out there now to put up stiff resistance to the Russians for a long time. They will still need food and water and probably bring money in to live off so it's not certain how it will all go but I think now Ukraine has every fighting chance.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Chelseaboy on February 27, 2022, 06:08:07 AM
Russia has lost around 4,300 military personnel and 146 Tanks so far.


BBC are on the Polish border watching the refugees from Ukraine arriving and reported that a large convoy of military aid was seen going the other way.


Ukrainian men who've been working as lorry drivers in Poland going the other way too to fight.


Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: fathertime on February 27, 2022, 07:27:03 AM
Russia has lost around 4,300 military personnel and 146 Tanks so far.
Russia has lost 4000 and Ukraine 198.   I find that hard to believe, if being reported from western media doesn't lend much credence to its accuracy.   If these numbers were accurate, I'd say the battle isn't going well for Russia. 

Fathertime!   
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: ML on February 27, 2022, 08:13:06 AM
We should cancel every Russian, Belorussian, and Chechnyan student visa, and give them 24 hours to leave the US or be arrested and put in one of the ICE concentration camps for illegal immigrants.  They should also be banned from coming back to the US for 3-5 years.  This destroys the possibility of getting a US education.
Anyone with Russian/Belorussian/Chechnyan citizenship should have their visa revoked and immediately deported.

I said this same thing to my wife a week or so ago.

I would go even further and evict those here with Green Card status.

There are several Russian citizens teaching here at the university with Green Card status.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: fathertime on February 27, 2022, 08:29:56 AM
I said this same thing to my wife a week or so ago.

I would go even further and evict those here with Green Card status.

There are several Russian citizens teaching here at the university with Green Card status.

Why would we want to take such harsh action against innocents....
Nations might then retaliate and decide to imprison innocent americans living abroad. 
I'm not sure I see how this would help but I can see how it would be detrimental. 

Fathertime!   
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Trenchcoat on February 27, 2022, 08:32:36 AM
Russia has lost 4000 and Ukraine 198.   I find that hard to believe, if being reported from western media doesn't lend much credence to its accuracy.   If these numbers were accurate, I'd say the battle isn't going well for Russia. 

Fathertime!

I think you're right FT that number can't be accurate, Russian losses more than ten times Ukrainian??? Possibly if Russia transported troops in lorries or tank crews being hit I could see it being a bit higher but more than ten times? Like you say either Ukrainians are understating their loses or they are overstating Russian casualties, maybe both.

I don't think it's going well for Russia but I can't see how it would be going that badly especially when the Russian forces are better equipped and trained supposedly. It may be Ukraine trying to hook the west, NATO into coming to their aid. The news report the other day from the soldiers injured at the hospital in Mariupol kind of tells a bit of a different picture, they were desperate for NATO to intervene and said that Ukraine could possibly only hold out about 8 days or so at best. I personally think it would be a disaster for NATO to get involved, almost certain WWIII and many, many more deaths as a result. Apart from Russia I could see China take the opportunity to invade Taiwan then the nations of the South China Sea then finally Australia due to NATO being distracted with Russia and most of its forces sent there. We would then be in a war with China and hence a world war. To my mind this fight is best kept between Russia & Ukraine, it's their fight and we never promised to come in fighting for Ukraine despite Zelensky's best efforts to try and drag us in.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: fathertime on February 27, 2022, 08:37:23 AM
Germany now stepping up..lot's more military aid being sent to Ukraine....1000 anti-tank weapons and 500 Stinger missiles.
It makes no sense that Russia would allow these weapons to be transported into Ukraine.   Given they have 100's of thousands of men on the ground now, it would seem they could control this sort of weaponry entering a battle zone. 

Fathertime!   
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: GQBlues on February 27, 2022, 08:44:07 AM
After being requested by Ukraine, in an instant, Elon Musk is regarded as a hero in this conflict by moving his Starlink station to Easter Europe. He promised to mobilize and add more stations.

Starlink (http://mobile.twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1497701484003213317?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1497701484003213317%7Ctwgr%5E%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fd-7418522281252376296.ampproject.net%2F2202142035002%2Fframe.html)

Thanks to Germany too for forsaking their domestic needs at this time in favor of Ukraine.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: GQBlues on February 27, 2022, 09:05:13 AM
68F,  brrrrr
Ok.i needed a laugh today, thanks

Hah. You’re a Kali boy, you know it may show air temp at 68 but the cold northern wind makes in feel like you’re in the arctic. It felt like a San Francisco summer.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: BC on February 27, 2022, 09:53:10 AM
After being requested by Ukraine, in an instant, Elon Musk is regarded as a hero in this conflict by moving his Starlink station to Easter Europe. He promised to mobilize and add more stations.

He didn't have to move his stations. Starlink satellites are orbiting the planet and ground stations in Lithuania and Poland can serve most of UA. Check starlink.sx  What he is sending is small dishes (terminals) used to connect to satellites connected to the internet.  I just installed mine the other day.  Am waiting to hear if it is possible to pack up and donate mine since I haven't yet cancelled my old service.  I'm posting using Starlink now. Portable, fast and stable.  A luxury here, but could well be a critical asset somewhere in UA.

(http://i.postimg.cc/rw0RYGTR/Screen-Shot-2022-02-27-at-17-39-59.png)

Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: ML on February 27, 2022, 10:19:57 AM
Quote from: ML on Today at 10:13:06 AM
I said this same thing to my wife a week or so ago.

I would go even further and evict those here with Green Card status.

There are several Russian citizens teaching here at the university with Green Card status.

Why would we want to take such harsh action against innocents....
Nations might then retaliate and decide to imprison innocent americans living abroad. 
I'm not sure I see how this would help but I can see how it would be detrimental. 

Two points:
1) You switched from my evicting to your imprisoning.
2) The Russians here are not innocents.  I talked with some of the Russian professors here back in 2014 and they said they supported Putin's actions against Ukraine.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: fathertime on February 27, 2022, 11:07:08 AM
Quote from: ML on Today at 10:13:06 AM
 

Two points:
1) You switched from my evicting to your imprisoning.
2) The Russians here are not innocents.  I talked with some of the Russian professors here back in 2014 and they said they supported Putin's actions against Ukraine.


We should cancel every Russian, Belorussian, and Chechnyan student visa, and give them 24 hours to leave the US or be arrested and put in one of the ICE concentration camps for illegal immigrants.  They should also be banned from coming back to the US for 3-5 years.  This destroys the possibility of getting a US education.
Anyone with Russian/Belorussian/Chechnyan citizenship should have their visa revoked and immediately deported.

 

I'm sorry I didn't mean to imply you were talking about prison.   You didn't, but bee farmer did. 

I'm not sure it would be illegal for professors to support V. Putin and his actions.   In some cases, they may simply be attempting to restate his position on the matters.  In other cases they restate and completely support Putin.   It is probably still legal to do this.   

Fathertime!   
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Bee Farmer on February 27, 2022, 11:13:35 AM
Ah you'll be off to Ukraine to fight as one of the many foreign fighters going there will you Bee Farmer? A 'War Tourist'?

I think with NATO you're not seeing the whole picture, sure NATO could destroy a lot of their Army reasonably easily but it doesn't stop there, Russia has chemical, thermal and nuclear weapons and there is no guarantee we can stop them. Russia still has thousands upon thousands of nukes that can destroy the world several times over. We can't be assure that we can stop them all or that they won't reach us to say nothing of the radioactive fallout. At best if we destroy Russia's army we may agree a ceasefire and a resolution bin Ukraine's favour as to press on and try to capture Moscow etc would like make Russia use Nukes and hence MAD. I don't think we really want WWIII with chemical, thermal, etc misery just over Ukraine. Ukraine can fight its own battles.

With all the weapons now being sent to Ukraine they've got everything they need out there now to put up stiff resistance to the Russians for a long time. They will still need food and water and probably bring money in to live off so it's not certain how it will all go but I think now Ukraine has every fighting chance.

Anyone with brains knows it's best to use the right tool for the job.  I'm not a professional soldier.  While it sounds romantic to go over to help fight, the reality is that my Ukrainian isn't good enough for my brains to be of much use, and that leaves being a sniper until my position gets hit with artillery.  I realize that I would be better off doing what I do best...which means I may be of more value during the reconstruction process.

Only a complete fool would even consider looking for a wife in Ukraine now.  You think scammers were bad before?  They are going to come out of the woodwork now.  It's going to take years and an enormous amount of money to repair the economy, regardless of how the way ends.

Any decent girl is going to want to stay and help take care of her family now.  She's not going to be interested in going to another country with some foreign guy she barely knows.  The girls who will be interested in foreign guys are only interested in a mule.  They want to escape.  They will not be interested in you.  As soon as they are out, they will drop you in a heartbeat the moment they have a chance at anything better.

And any girl you find is going to have full blown PTSD after this.  Do you realize how much emotional support you are going to have to give her?  That's just one big stress factor on top of all the other difficulties of international/intercultural marriages.

I think the only way a man should even consider dating in Ukraine now is if he had already started cultivating a relationship with a girl (and hopefully had met face to face) prior to this war.  You might have a chance at being able to continue building a relationship.

You also seem to forget that Russia is not the only country with nuclear weapons or a strong military.  You sound like the wimpy coward on the playground who is afraid to stand up to a bully because he might get his butt kicked even worse.

You also don't seem to understand logistics.  The moment a country says it is going to send military weapons to Ukraine, that doesn't instantly put the weapons in the fighters hands.  It has to get loaded up, sent to Poland, then loaded on trains or trucks, and then transported and distributed to different cities that are currently under attack.  Do we even need to mention that the Russian military will be doing everything they can to stop the flow of supplies to the Ukrainian fighters?  I'm surprised Russia hasn't started bombing the train system in Ukraine yet.   
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Bee Farmer on February 27, 2022, 11:18:16 AM
I said this same thing to my wife a week or so ago.

I would go even further and evict those here with Green Card status.

There are several Russian citizens teaching here at the university with Green Card status.

I agree with you.  If they are a Russian citizen, send them back. 

I read an article.  The 'comfortable rich' Russians have created a Little Moscow in Florida.  They are worried they may not be able to buy luxury real estate in Florida now because of the sanctions.  A Russian real estate agent there said they didn't think the sanctions would be a problem, since the sanctions were targeting the elite Russian oligarchs, and these were just the comfortable rich Russians, and not the oligarch families.

So what?  Boot them all back to Russia.  Let them cry their hearts out that they can't enjoy the luxury American lifestyle.  Those are the people we need to expel, because they know how good life here is.  They will foment a regime change in Russia.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Bee Farmer on February 27, 2022, 11:25:39 AM
Why would we want to take such harsh action against innocents....
Nations might then retaliate and decide to imprison innocent americans living abroad. 
I'm not sure I see how this would help but I can see how it would be detrimental. 

Fathertime!

That's a risk they chose to take when they decided to live abroad.  Actions have consequences.

You can't always have your cake and eat it too.

I do find it quite ironic that you would even mention the 'innocent' Americans living abroad.  That is seriously messed up.  You sound like that stupid Russian spy woman the US arrested a few years back.  She was arguing that Ukraine shouldn't be handing out guns because a child might get killed.

WTF? What about the women and kids Russia is killing now?  What about all the innocent Ukrainians being killed?  And you want to play coward because of risks to a few bystanders, when not doing it will cause more harm to other bystanders?

When Americans choose to live abroad, they are no longer "innocent."  They chose to put themselves in that situation.  They accepted those risks.

Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Bee Farmer on February 27, 2022, 11:29:14 AM
I'm sorry I didn't mean to imply you were talking about prison.   You didn't, but bee farmer did. 

I'm not sure it would be illegal for professors to support V. Putin and his actions.   In some cases, they may simply be attempting to restate his position on the matters.  In other cases they restate and completely support Putin.   It is probably still legal to do this.   

Fathertime!

Read my words again.  I said their visa should be cancelled and they should be ordered to leave.  If they refuse to leave immediately, they get arrested for being here without a visa.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: John Gaunt on February 27, 2022, 11:32:36 AM
Russia is being isolated in the Sporting World :
1. UEFA Championship in St Petersburg moved.
2. F1 GP being moved from Sochi plus Russian sponsors of one team kicked out.
3. Aeroflot has football sponsorship contract cancelled in UK.
4. Czech, Sweden refuse to play Russia in WC playoffs.
5. FIG suspends the Russians (and Belarusians) from participating in international competitions or from hosting any FIG championships.

Have I missed anything?
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: tfcrew on February 27, 2022, 11:50:52 AM
Quote from: ML on Today at 10:13:06 AM
  The Russians here are not innocents.  I talked with some of the Russian professors here back in 2014 and they said they supported Putin's actions against Ukraine.


(http://media.townhall.com/Townhall/Car/b/mrz022722dAPC20220225054516.jpg)
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: fathertime on February 27, 2022, 11:59:36 AM


I do find it quite ironic that you would even mention the 'innocent' Americans living abroad.  That is seriously messed up.   

When Americans choose to live abroad, they are no longer "innocent."  They chose to put themselves in that situation.  They accepted those risks.
That is a weird way to look at it.  You seem to believe by living abroad you are guilty of something.   

   You sound like that stupid Russian spy woman the US arrested a few years back.  She was arguing that Ukraine shouldn't be handing out guns because a child might get killed.

WTF? What about the women and kids Russia is killing now?  What about all the innocent Ukrainians being killed?  And you want to play coward because of risks to a few bystanders, when not doing it will cause more harm to other bystanders?
 
Whoever this 'Russian spy woman' is, as a spy she obviously had an agenda so I wouldn't place too much value in her argument.   I don't see why in your head why one topic reminded you of another.   

Fathertime! 
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Bee Farmer on February 27, 2022, 12:02:00 PM
Russia is being isolated in the Sporting World :
1. UEFA Championship in St Petersburg moved.
2. F1 GP being moved from Sochi plus Russian sponsors of one team kicked out.
3. Aeroflot has football sponsorship contract cancelled in UK.
4. Czech, Sweden refuse to play Russia in WC playoffs.
5. FIG suspends the Russians (and Belarusians) from participating in international competitions or from hosting any FIG championships.

Have I missed anything?

Roman Abramovich turned over the Chelsea soccer team to a charity(I think?) organization.

All the main boxing organizations have refused to sanction any boxing event in Russia.

The International Judo Federation suspended Putin as president of them.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Bee Farmer on February 27, 2022, 12:07:21 PM
That is a weird way to look at it.  You seem to believe by living abroad you are guilty of something.   

Whoever this 'Russian spy woman' is, as a spy she obviously had an agenda so I wouldn't place too much value in her argument.   I don't see why in your head why one topic reminded you of another.   

Fathertime!

Yes, you are guilty of something.  You are guilty of choosing to live there.  You are guilty of tacitly agreeing with the decisions of the government there.

If you can't see the parallel, then I would suggest you go remove your blinders.  It is the exact same mentality and line of thinking.  Your agenda is exactly the same agenda as the Russian spy's (Maria Butina), whether you realize it or not.

“Cowardice asks the question, is it safe? Expediency asks the question, is it politic? Vanity asks the question, is it popular? But conscience asks the question, is it right? And there comes a time when one must take a position that is neither safe, nor politic, nor popular, but one must take it because it is right.” – Martin Luther King
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: fathertime on February 27, 2022, 12:13:30 PM
Yes, you are guilty of something.  You are guilty of choosing to live there.  You are guilty of tacitly agreeing with the decisions of the government there.
So if that is the case, why wouldn't the Russians living here be 'tacitly' agreeing with the decisions here....why would they all need to be immediately kicked out or imprisoned...

Of course I disagree with your proclamation that Americans living abroad are guilty of anything.  Perhaps you can make a better argument that doesn't contradict itself from one post to another.   

Fathertime!

Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: BC on February 27, 2022, 01:16:43 PM
A passport or citizenship surely influences, but doesn't define a person.

Propaganda is a huge part of the game, but we do have the ability to learn, change and adapt.

Whether one use that ability, or not is the true issue.

Democracy must prove itself stronger, and is based on inclusion rather than exclusion.

Throwing the baby out with the bath water is as undemocratic as it gets.
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Boethius on February 27, 2022, 02:29:04 PM

Written in January of this year, this article seems prescient at this point in time .... http://www.csis.org/analysis/russias-possible-invasion-ukraine (http://www.csis.org/analysis/russias-possible-invasion-ukraine)

That was very interesting.  Thank you.

I found this op-ed from Russian writer Vladimir Sorokin interesting -

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/feb/27/vladimir-putin-russia-ukraine-power
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Jumper1 on February 27, 2022, 02:36:46 PM
Anyone with brains knows it's best to use the right tool for the job.  I'm not a professional soldier.  While it sounds romantic to go over to help fight, the reality is that my Ukrainian isn't good enough for my brains to be of much use, and that leaves being a sniper until my position gets hit with artillery.  I realize that I would be better off doing what I do best...which means I may be of more value during the reconstruction process.

Only a complete fool would even consider looking for a wife in Ukraine now.  You think scammers were bad before?  They are going to come out of the woodwork now.  It's going to take years and an enormous amount of money to repair the economy, regardless of how the way ends.

Any decent girl is going to want to stay and help take care of her family now.  She's not going to be interested in going to another country with some foreign guy she barely knows.  The girls who will be interested in foreign guys are only interested in a mule.  They want to escape.  They will not be interested in you.  As soon as they are out, they will drop you in a heartbeat the moment they have a chance at anything better.

And any girl you find is going to have full blown PTSD after this.  Do you realize how much emotional support you are going to have to give her?  That's just one big stress factor on top of all the other difficulties of international/intercultural marriages.

I think the only way a man should even consider dating in Ukraine now is if he had already started cultivating a relationship with a girl (and hopefully had met face to face) prior to this war.  You might have a chance at being able to continue building a relationship.

You also seem to forget that Russia is not the only country with nuclear weapons or a strong military.  You sound like the wimpy coward on the playground who is afraid to stand up to a bully because he might get his butt kicked even worse.

You also don't seem to understand logistics.  The moment a country says it is going to send military weapons to Ukraine, that doesn't instantly put the weapons in the fighters hands.  It has to get loaded up, sent to Poland, then loaded on trains or trucks, and then transported and distributed to different cities that are currently under attack.  Do we even need to mention that the Russian military will be doing everything they can to stop the flow of supplies to the Ukrainian fighters?  I'm surprised Russia hasn't started bombing the train system in Ukraine yet.   

Not that I disagree with your points there...I actually think most are  generally accurate

But you also seem to forget the entire reason the K1 process was ever developed and integrated into u.s. immigration policy.

Granted TC is English.

It just ironic your take on women leaving and their motivations when the K1 was centered around military personnel, and often in war torn areas.

🤷‍♂️
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Jumper1 on February 27, 2022, 02:59:09 PM
That's a risk they chose to take when they decided to live abroad.  Actions have consequences.

You can't always have your cake and eat it too.

I do find it quite ironic that you would even mention the 'innocent' Americans living abroad.  That is seriously messed up.  You sound like that stupid Russian spy woman the US arrested a few years back.  She was arguing that Ukraine shouldn't be handing out guns because a child might get killed.

WTF? What about the women and kids Russia is killing now?  What about all the innocent Ukrainians being killed?  And you want to play coward because of risks to a few bystanders, when not doing it will cause more harm to other bystanders?

When Americans choose to live abroad, they are no longer "innocent."  They chose to put themselves in that situation.  They accepted those risks.

So by your logic the many times I've lived and worked abroad,  for various u. s.companies  , if our foreign policy changes when a new administration takes over, or they make some foolish invasion decisions,  I should not be able to rely on the closet us embassy for any support, and any nation connected with whomever feels harmed by u.s actions can imprison me or whatever justly.?
Do you have even the lightest idea of the scope of u.s contracted services abroad?
  So someone working in industrial.constuction in israel ,or Brazil, is not an *innocent* bystander because their company sent them.there for two.years on assignment?

You have a very weird perspective of how globally anything reasonable can work,or should work.

I've direct family in Ukraine and inlaws,,
Yet your stance on Russians legally here is beyond foolish.


I know plenty of Russians here that certainly do not support this invasion in any way shape or form.

Nor are they children of wealthy Russians.
There are close to 250,000 Russians within 150 mile radius of me,and roughly  half a million Ukrainians,not.to.mention a million polish,and the highest numbers of Lithuanians per capita in the US,  is the county I live in.


Have you fully supported every international move the usa has made?








Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Jumper1 on February 27, 2022, 03:02:11 PM
Hah. You’re a Kali boy, you know it may show air temp at 68 but the cold northern wind makes in feel like you’re in the arctic. It felt like a San Francisco summer.

Yes I know lol, but we had highs of 13F here  last week,  it was a balmy 28 yesterday and actually did feel. Umm warm.

Regarding SF,
I told my wife when we were in our way to visit there previously that despite.our.winters ,I had never been so chilled to.the bone as SF in summer 🤣
Title: The Struggle For Ukraine
Post by: Jumper1 on February 27, 2022, 03:05:21 PM
He didn't have to move his stations. Starlink satellites are orbiting the planet and ground stations in Lithuania and Poland can serve most of UA. Check starlink.sx  What he is sending is small dishes (terminals) used to connect to satellites connected to the internet.  I just installed mine the other day.  Am waiting to hear if it is possible to pack up and donate mine since I haven't yet cancelled my old service.  I'm posting using Starlink now. Portable, fast and stable.  A luxury here, but could well be a critic