It appears you have not registered with our community. To register please click here ...

!!

Welcome to Russian Women Discussion - the most informative site for all things related to serious long-term relationships and marriage to a partner from the Former Soviet Union countries!

Please register (it's free!) to gain full access to the many features and benefits of the site. Welcome!

+-

Author Topic: Divorce - no children - company owner - advices needed  (Read 1241 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline europeboy

  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 4
  • Gender: Male
Divorce - no children - company owner - advices needed
« on: December 03, 2021, 11:07:30 AM »
Hi,

I was married in Moscow but having a divorce now
We got no children. I owned a company before marriage, private liability companies similar to OOO, i own 100% shares
The company had a big growth (1000%) during 6 years marriage and most money stayed in the company, I pay myself a normal salary
no mariage contract  :rolleyes:

I was told before companies owned before marriage are personal belonging but in Belgium it seems there is some value compensation.
According to European law i'll need to compensate my wife for the shares growth value, because the shares are private.
The company stays mine ofcourse.

My lawer is not sure if we need to proceed with divorce according Russian law or Belgian law
The lawyer from my ex told me in Russia all business income is mutual; but I don't believe that

Also she asks alimony but she has no children, is only 41 and has 2 diploma's and has 2 own apartments in Moscow before marriage
The lawyer thinks in Belgium she will get alimony but my russian lawyers says she will not.

What is your experience with divorce and company ownerships?
Happy to win some information before next lawyer meeting

Offline BC

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 13534
  • Country: it
  • Gender: Male
  • Spouse's Country: Russia
  • Status: Married > 10 years
  • Trips: 4 - 10
Re: Divorce - no children - company owner - advices needed
« Reply #1 on: December 03, 2021, 12:49:10 PM »
Not an expert, but IMO jurisdiction for divorce is where the parties reside.

Online 2tallbill

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 11803
  • Country: us
  • Gender: Male
  • Living the dream
  • Spouse's Country: Russia
  • Status: Married 5-10 years
  • Trips: > 10
Divorce - no children - company owner - advices needed
« Reply #2 on: December 03, 2021, 02:18:55 PM »
My lawer is not sure if we need to proceed with divorce according Russian law or Belgian law

What is your experience with divorce and company ownerships?
Happy to win some information before next lawyer meeting

Fire your lawyer, he is incompetent.

FSUW are not for entry level daters
FSUW don't do vague
FSUW like a man of action. Be a man of action 
If you find a promising girl, get your butt on a plane.
There are a hundred ways to be successful and a thousand ways to f#ck it up
Kiss the girl, don't ask her first.

Offline Boethius

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2431
  • Country: 00
  • Spouse's Country: No Selection
  • Status: No Selection
  • Trips: No Selection
Re: Divorce - no children - company owner - advices needed
« Reply #3 on: December 03, 2021, 02:29:06 PM »
Bill, you cannot possibly know that about his lawyer.  His lawyer has facts we don't.

If the parties lived in both Belgium and Russia, a divorce could be commenced in either jurisdiction.  Then, it's a matter of the courts deciding which jurisdiction is the forum conveniens.  Things such as ties to each jurisdiction are then examined.  I am no expert in Russian family law, but I believe assets brought into a marriage, if not held jointly, are exempt.  If that is true, then it's to the OP's advantage to file in Russia.  But, his soon to be ex could challenge that, on the basis that Belgium is the forum conveniens.

If the wife has filed for divorce in Russia, then OP should retain a national law firm in Moscow to advise him.
True love begins when nothing is looked for in return. -  Antoine de Saint-Exupery

Offline Intrepid Traveler

  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 47
  • Country: ca
  • Gender: Male
  • Spouse's Country: Russia
  • Status: Looking 1-2 years
  • Trips: None (yet)
Re: Divorce - no children - company owner - advices needed
« Reply #4 on: December 03, 2021, 02:38:25 PM »
Rule number when dealing with personal and important legal matters is to never trust anything you read on the internet from strangers. That includes my response.

From your message, it's seems you don't have a pre-nuptial agreement. You stated no marriage contract. You and your ex spent the majority of your time in Belgium where you worked on developing and expanding your business. My guess is that she will claim that Belgium is the appropriate jurisdiction. Your lawyer should be to tell you, too, in a heartbeat if Belgium is the likely jurisdiction.

Regarding her share of your business, that depends on the local laws and customs of Belgium. In many or all North American jurisdictions, she would be entitled to half the growth in value. Valuation for private businesses is difficult and very subjective. You will need to get experts to value your business as of six years ago and again today. There are a lot of variables that go into valuing a business. Consequently, you can get a very wide range in values. If you have a franchise or something that you can easily compare against others, then it is much easier. But if you are providing some specialized service, then the value can be in the eye of the beholder.

You and she are going to need to agree on different valuation firms. One method might be to agree to use the average of three valuators. Just using one valuator can be somewhat dangerous if she or he provides an excessively high value. Another thing you can do is ignore a valuation that is further away than 15 (or some number) percent of the average and require at least two valuations for an average. For example, you could get all three valuators providing estimates that are all far away from each other.

Valuators usually use two or three different methodologies to value a business. The problem is that their values from their three methodologies are unusually close to each other. In other words, they are garbage. For example, a single valuator may look at multiples (multiples of sales, square meters, or something that is relevant to your business), value of the cash flows, and values from comparative businesses. The unfortunate part is that most will have all three methods giving the nearly the same answer.

Your divorce lawyer has likely crossed this bridge a few times before and can suggest a suitable process for you. So use my answer to get your brain thinking. Your lawyer will provide a better answer. I believe this forum has a few entrepreneurs too that may provide better advice.

One challenge you might have is that the growth in value is more than you can readily raise in cash to pay her. For example, say the growth in value is €5 million and you have only €250 thousand in cash, far short of the €2.5 million that you need to give her. You may need to work on a payment plan.

Regarding alimony, that is entirely up your local laws and customs. Your lawyer is the best person to give you advice. Her prior assets may enter into the picture in that she has sufficient resources to not need your resources. But, of course, your local laws and customs will govern.

I have three suggestions for you. One, listen carefully to your lawyer. Let him or her speak completely before interrupting with your own thoughts and concerns. Often when we are emotional, we tend to interrupt. It is not on purpose. Instead, we are just anxious and uncertain. Allow your lawyer the freedom to completely inform you of your options.

Two, if you are not happy with your lawyer's advice, try another lawyer. You do not have fire your first lawyer. Just discuss your situation with another lawyer. If she or he gives better advice, then hire your second lawyer and dismiss your first lawyer. Do this early in the process. It gets costly to have to repeat a lot of stuff in the middle of the process.

Three, try as much as possible to be dispassionate about your situation. The more emotion and vindictive you are, the more it costs everyone. When facing a loss, people become risk seeking rather than risk averse.

Offline BC

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 13534
  • Country: it
  • Gender: Male
  • Spouse's Country: Russia
  • Status: Married > 10 years
  • Trips: 4 - 10
Re: Divorce - no children - company owner - advices needed
« Reply #5 on: December 03, 2021, 11:50:28 PM »
Here are some resources:

http://uk.practicallaw.thomsonreuters.com/4-569-5106?transitionType=Default&contextData=(sc.Default)&firstPage=true

Quote
Divorce
Where one of the spouses is a foreign national or a stateless person, the Russian court has divorce jurisdiction if:
Either spouse is resident in Russia.
Either spouse is a Russian national.
The respondent spouse has property in Russia.

Quote
Property
Russian courts have jurisdiction in financial family disputes involving foreign nationals if the:
Respondent is resident in Russia.
Respondent has property in Russia.
Applicant is a Russian resident in spousal maintenance matters.

Taking this at face value, the party in Russia could file for divorce in Russia, and that would be the end of it.  Whether the party in Russia can then use the divorce decree, have Apostille applied, and file in a foreign court for spousal support and assert property rights is an entirely separate matter that could vary from state to state.

IIRC both Russia and the US are part of the Hague Apostille Convention.

http://www.americanbar.org/groups/family_law/publications/family-advocate/2020/fall/family-law-disputes-between-international-couples-us-courts/

Quote
Many state courts assert in rem jurisdiction to distribute marital property located within the state, relying on the Supreme Court’s statement in Shaffer v. Heitner, 433 U.S. 186 (1977), that, “when claims to the property itself are the source of the underlying controversy between the plaintiff and the defendant, it would be unusual for the State where the property is located not to have jurisdiction.”

Quote
Division of Property
Assuming that an American court has jurisdiction to entertain a divorce action and to adjudicate financial claims, it must address the complexities that arise when international couples have acquired property under different legal regimes in different countries or states. Courts in the United States do not speak in a single voice on this issue. Some states follow a “total mutability” approach and apply their own law to divide all of the couple’s property, regardless of where or when it was acquired and regardless of where the partner was domiciled at the time of acquisition. The benefit of this approach is that a single state’s law—the forum’s familiar law—governs all of the couple’s property. The downside of this approach is that it may encourage forum shopping and frustrate the parties’ reasonable expectations. Other states follow a “partial mutability” approach and apply the law of the state in which the party who acquired the property was domiciled at the time of acquisition. So if a couple moves from country X to state Y, the court in state Y will apply country X’s law to govern the distribution of the property acquired before the move and state Y’s domestic law to govern the distribution of the property acquired after the move. While this approach may honor the expectations of parties that the law of the state of domicile at the time of acquisition will govern their property rights, it complicates the divorce court’s task by requiring it to apply more than one jurisdiction’s law (including one or more unfamiliar foreign laws) to resolve the property claims of the international couple. Yet other courts apply forum law to govern the distribution of personal property and the law of the situs of real property to govern its distribution. One prominent scholar has suggested that courts should determine parties’ marital property rights in accordance with the law of the last state where the couple shared a primary residence for a specified period of time.

I suspect it would likely be to the advantage of the party in Russia to file for divorce in the US, as doing so would resolve any issues regarding jurisdiction and provide a path forward to resolve marital asset claims. assets.

Alternatively, it might be possible to arrange a legally binding agreement between the parties to resolve marital asset issues.  This would surely involve attorneys on both sides versed in international law, but in the long run maybe the less expensive option.  If an amicable agreement can be reached, it would likely be filed with the court where you reside so it is enforceable.

Again, I'm not a lawyer and this post does not constitute legal advice.  Seek professional advice from a qualified attorney.

PS.. I just remembered you are in Belgium, but the same legal principles likely apply.  Leaving this post as is in case it comes up with any US bound folks.

For Belgium:

http://uk.practicallaw.thomsonreuters.com/w-028-9004?transitionType=Default&contextData=(sc.Default)&firstPage=true

Quote
Default regime
If there is no marriage contract (pre-nuptial agreement), under Article 1390 of the Civil Code, the default matrimonial property regime is the community of assets. This regime is set out under Article 1398 and following of the Civil Code.
Every asset that is earned during the marriage then falls into the community of assets and is shared equally at the end of the regime (on divorce or death). Assets that belonged to one spouse before the marriage and those they receive from their families (such as gifts of inheritance) remain personal and do not form part of the community of assets.

« Last Edit: December 04, 2021, 12:14:21 AM by BC »

Offline Boethius

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2431
  • Country: 00
  • Spouse's Country: No Selection
  • Status: No Selection
  • Trips: No Selection
Re: Divorce - no children - company owner - advices needed
« Reply #6 on: December 04, 2021, 09:09:38 AM »
Both Russia and Belgium are civil law jurisdictions, which means everything is codified. 


I don't think common law principles can be applied at all, beyond the argument about jurisdiction.












True love begins when nothing is looked for in return. -  Antoine de Saint-Exupery

Online 2tallbill

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 11803
  • Country: us
  • Gender: Male
  • Living the dream
  • Spouse's Country: Russia
  • Status: Married 5-10 years
  • Trips: > 10
Divorce - no children - company owner - advice needed
« Reply #7 on: December 04, 2021, 11:39:24 AM »
Bill, you cannot possibly know that about his lawyer.  His lawyer has facts we don't.

Yes, I do. His lawyer would refer his case to somebody else if he didn't know
enough about the law or situation. That's what you would do if he walked into
your office. In any case he needs representation, the guy he has can't do it.



« Last Edit: December 04, 2021, 11:44:26 AM by 2tallbill »
FSUW are not for entry level daters
FSUW don't do vague
FSUW like a man of action. Be a man of action 
If you find a promising girl, get your butt on a plane.
There are a hundred ways to be successful and a thousand ways to f#ck it up
Kiss the girl, don't ask her first.

Offline europeboy

  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 4
  • Gender: Male
Re: Divorce - no children - company owner - advices needed
« Reply #8 on: December 05, 2021, 02:29:13 PM »
Thank you all for your answers.
I'm the one who is starting the divorce, and we are not started yet with judges.
We are started negotating to make a mutual agreement. All lawyers are competent but it's a complication situation and both restrictions are possible.

Her lawyer tries to push the Belgian law, because it's better for her, but i'm just thinking Russian law would fit better for me.

Actually there is only 1 important question which I still cannot find a clear anwser:
Does someone had a similar situation and know if according to Russian law, a private company, owned before marriage, is also suitable to pay a growth value to the ex spouse or not?

Online 2tallbill

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 11803
  • Country: us
  • Gender: Male
  • Living the dream
  • Spouse's Country: Russia
  • Status: Married 5-10 years
  • Trips: > 10
Divorce - no children - company owner - advices needed
« Reply #9 on: December 05, 2021, 03:21:08 PM »
Her lawyer tries to push the Belgian law, because it's better for her, but i'm just thinking Russian law would fit better for me.

Where do you live? Where did you file for divorce?

If you live in Russia you use Russian law, if in Belgium then Belgian.
Nobody gets to pick or push what system of law to use.

FSUW are not for entry level daters
FSUW don't do vague
FSUW like a man of action. Be a man of action 
If you find a promising girl, get your butt on a plane.
There are a hundred ways to be successful and a thousand ways to f#ck it up
Kiss the girl, don't ask her first.

Online Trenchcoat

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6613
  • Country: gb
  • Gender: Male
  • Spouse's Country: No Selection
  • Status: Looking 3-5 years
  • Trips: 4 - 10
Re: Divorce - no children - company owner - advices needed
« Reply #10 on: December 06, 2021, 03:30:24 AM »
Thank you all for your answers.
I'm the one who is starting the divorce, and we are not started yet with judges.
We are started negotating to make a mutual agreement. All lawyers are competent but it's a complication situation and both restrictions are possible.

Her lawyer tries to push the Belgian law, because it's better for her, but i'm just thinking Russian law would fit better for me.

Actually there is only 1 important question which I still cannot find a clear anwser:
Does someone had a similar situation and know if according to Russian law, a private company, owned before marriage, is also suitable to pay a growth value to the ex spouse or not?

I've heard that where you have been living often is a big factor but where you got married may not be something to be overlooked. You say you got married in Moscow so if it were me I would tend to go and seek a divorce in Russia, worse case scenario is that it gets knocked back but at least you've tried. I know under Ukrainian law everything a guy owned before marriage he retains after a divorce and and heard it is similar in Russia. In general as FSU countries tend to be patriarchal they tend to give decent protection from the guy being taken to the cleaners. If it's Belgium I would not be so comfortable, it's the heart of the EU and likely very matriarchal. Ideally if you had any opportunity to move back to Russia if only temporarily before kicking it all off that may have helped a bit. All my guesswork though so nothing concrete. So how come you are divorcing her?
It's a Free Britain we have. We're never going back! :)

Offline europeboy

  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 4
  • Gender: Male
Re: Divorce - no children - company owner - advices needed
« Reply #11 on: December 06, 2021, 03:27:34 PM »
I heared it's even possibile to start the divorce in Belgium BUT according to the Russian Law.

I know under Ukrainian law everything a guy owned before marriage he retains after a divorce and and heard it is similar in Russia. In general as FSU countries tend to be patriarchal they tend to give decent protection from the guy being taken to the cleaners. If it's Belgium I would not be so comfortable, it's the heart of the EU and likely very matriarchal.

Yes, I have the same feeling Russian law would protect me better as Belgium.
I always payed everything for her during marriage, she got a lot, splitting my company which i owned before marriage seems ridiculous to me because I owned it before marriage.

So how come you are divorcing her?

It's complicated. Difficult decision. For some parts she was very good to me but her character is impossible to live with. I had to agree on everything and cannot live my own life anymore. Step by step she takes everything.
I'm not a specialist but it seems she is having lot's of narcist character items. She manipulates me all the time to reach her goals and block mine; It took me a long time to find out.
At some point it felt for me just too much to agree because some lines were crossed where I cannot be myself anymore.

Online Trenchcoat

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6613
  • Country: gb
  • Gender: Male
  • Spouse's Country: No Selection
  • Status: Looking 3-5 years
  • Trips: 4 - 10
Re: Divorce - no children - company owner - advices needed
« Reply #12 on: December 06, 2021, 04:07:50 PM »
I heared it's even possibile to start the divorce in Belgium BUT according to the Russian Law.

Yes, I have the same feeling Russian law would protect me better as Belgium.
I always payed everything for her during marriage, she got a lot, splitting my company which i owned before marriage seems ridiculous to me because I owned it before marriage.

It's complicated. Difficult decision. For some parts she was very good to me but her character is impossible to live with. I had to agree on everything and cannot live my own life anymore. Step by step she takes everything.
I'm not a specialist but it seems she is having lot's of narcist character items. She manipulates me all the time to reach her goals and block mine; It took me a long time to find out.
At some point it felt for me just too much to agree because some lines were crossed where I cannot be myself anymore.

I know what you mean I've been with a FSW who had somewhat similar characteristics by the sounds of it. It would kind of suck if she got more while during the marriage only took. I reckon definitely sound out all possible options with a solicitor maybe several if there is a lot of money at stake, one may know of sone useful stuff more that another. Also might be worth a Google on Belgium & Russian divorce law, even an overview might give you more of an insight on what to do. I don't know if moving out of Belgium might help at all before action gets taken?

Only other thought is to try and get someone to mediate with her maybe even get back with her temporarily and see if you can move to a country where divorce laws are favourable. Just thoughts to throw around really.
It's a Free Britain we have. We're never going back! :)

Online John Gaunt

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 983
  • Country: gb
  • Gender: Male
  • Spouse's Country: Ukraine
  • Status: Married > 10 years
  • Trips: > 10
Re: Divorce - no children - company owner - advices needed
« Reply #13 on: December 06, 2021, 08:58:52 PM »
I know what you mean I've been with a FSW who had somewhat similar characteristics by the sounds of it. It would kind of suck if she got more while during the marriage only took. I reckon definitely sound out all possible options with a solicitor maybe several if there is a lot of money at stake, one may know of sone useful stuff more that another. Also might be worth a Google on Belgium & Russian divorce law, even an overview might give you more of an insight on what to do. I don't know if moving out of Belgium might help at all before action gets taken?

Only other thought is to try and get someone to mediate with her maybe even get back with her temporarily and see if you can move to a country where divorce laws are favourable. Just thoughts to throw around really.

OP, the last thing you should do is listen to any of Trenchies ‘advice’.
He is our resident misogynist Incel and has zero experience of dating, marriage, children etc in his own country let alone internationally.

Do not use Google advice, as suggested, seek professional legal advice from a respectable family law practitioner where you are. That’s your starting point.

Offline europeboy

  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 4
  • Gender: Male
Re: Divorce - no children - company owner - advices needed
« Reply #14 on: December 07, 2021, 11:25:45 AM »
Do not use Google advice, as suggested, seek professional legal advice from a respectable family law practitioner where you are. That’s your starting point.

Of course I have a complete lawyer team in Belgium + another lawyer specialized only for companies + a very good Russian lawyer firm from Moscow
I already have them a while.

I don't believe everything I Google, i'm just try to get some local advices from people who had the same experiences because I also don't believe every lawyers word because they also are happy to have a long expensive divorce because it bring them 10x more money

Offline Intrepid Traveler

  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 47
  • Country: ca
  • Gender: Male
  • Spouse's Country: Russia
  • Status: Looking 1-2 years
  • Trips: None (yet)
Re: Divorce - no children - company owner - advices needed
« Reply #15 on: December 07, 2021, 01:41:56 PM »
Of course I have a complete lawyer team in Belgium + another lawyer specialized only for companies + a very good Russian lawyer firm from Moscow
I already have them a while.

I don't believe everything I Google, i'm just try to get some local advices from people who had the same experiences because I also don't believe every lawyers word because they also are happy to have a long expensive divorce because it bring them 10x more money

One approach is to interview other lawyers, say two more. Describe your situation in a letter using no more than two pages. Perhaps outline your lawyer's recommendation briefly in a paragraph or two. Ask to speak with them to learn if they have a better approach. You are willing to pay each for an hour or two of his or her time. They might even be willing to speak to you for one hour for free. If you interview two additional lawyers, you'll find whether you are getting good or poor advice from your original counsel. Then make your decision.

You should be able to get referrals to good qualified divorce lawyers from friends and family. That should inform you whether the lawyer will drag the case for greater fees.

Contacting qualified people with direct knowledge of your facts and the local laws is the best way to proceed.

If you have great distrust in your lawyer, it will be hard to work together as a team during an emotional period. Make sure you find someone that you like and trust, and that can provide strong guidance to bring your situation to speedy and satisfactory resolution.


 

+-RWD Stats

Members
Total Members: 8870
Latest: Big mo
New This Month: 1
New This Week: 0
New Today: 0
Stats
Total Posts: 531391
Total Topics: 20521
Most Online Today: 901
Most Online Ever: 12701
(January 14, 2020, 07:04:55 AM)
Users Online
Members: 21
Guests: 792
Total: 813

+-Recent Posts

Re: Can a better deal be had living as a native Ukrainian? by Trenchcoat
Today at 05:44:14 PM

Re: Vaccine Misinformation by tfcrew
Today at 05:08:34 PM

Re: Really thinking a Belarus would suit me best by Trenchcoat
Today at 04:55:53 PM

Re: Can a better deal be had living as a native Ukrainian? by tfcrew
Today at 04:49:14 PM

Re: Can a better deal be had living as a native Ukrainian? by Jumper1
Today at 03:50:07 PM

Re: Really thinking a Belarus would suit me best by treddie
Today at 03:36:59 PM

Re: What sort of girl is a girl that is heavily into Nature? by Trenchcoat
Today at 01:16:05 PM

Re: Really thinking a Belarus would suit me best by Trenchcoat
Today at 01:09:33 PM

Re: Can a better deal be had living as a native Ukrainian? by Trenchcoat
Today at 12:31:31 PM

Re: Russian music video of the week by civi68
Today at 07:57:04 AM

Powered by EzPortal