Advice from guys who have been there

[ML]

ML, for GAWD's sake ...  right now, the OP's Q was serious .... surely not the time for WOVO v WMVM?  But as you raised it ... In my experience - 'intimacy' is far more likely to develop in a WOVO

My comment was not to start a WOVO vs WMVM argument.

But I have noted that many (even most) who follow WOVO are either 1) naive, 2) socially inept, 3) inexperienced with women, 4) introverted, 5) unsure of themselves, and on and on.

As such, they fall for the first woman who agrees to meet with them, become so enamored with her that they ignore all red flags, do not want to stop a relationship once it gets started . . . and DO NOT have as much sex as do those who follow WMVM approach.  Often they have NO sex until after she arrives in home country or even until marriage.

Of course there are always exceptions to what I have written, and all will claim they are the exception.

[msmob]

Sender:

You asked for our advice... you got plenty - yet you are ignoring most of it

But let us know how it works out..Good or Bad ! Especially if it's good. You'll be helping others

Good luck to you both !

My comment was not to start a WOVO vs WMVM argument.

But I have noted that many (even most) who follow WOVO are either 1) naive, 2) socially inept, 3) inexperienced with women, 4) introverted, 5) unsure of themselves, and on and on.

Rather than go off topic on here, I responded to ML by starting a new thread:

http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=21903.0

[Sender]

Oh, I'm not ignoring it.  Believe me, you have sped up my timetable.  But I'll let everyone know how this all turns out.

[msmob]

Oh, I'm not ignoring it.  Believe me, you have sped up my timetable.  But I'll let everyone know how this all turns out.

 

[Patagonie]

Personally, given how she has already behaved, I wouldn't give her time to develop connections.  If she does develop connections they will work against you and you will regret giving her time.  If you are lucky she will go on her merry way, if you aren't lucky, she could be a leach on you for a long time. 


If you feel that you are being too big an ass,  send her back with enough money to keep her afloat for a couple months.   Not that you can make her go, she could refuse to leave. 


I'd say in the situation you described you should look out for you.  She came here as your fiance and has given about zero effort in that regard.  That is all you need to see/know.  IMHO


Fathertime!

+5
Every hour now works against you.
For some women sex is nothing, nothing more than an apple. They can use it as a tool and to control or get what they want from men.
She can stay here for a long time, perhaps she has a plan for the next two years.
You need to cut your loose ASAP.
The best is to have an open and honest discussion, pack her belongings and aim for the airport.
Try to know in advance flights' schedules and get i don't know between 2000 and 5000$ from the bank before proceeding.
This discussion will let you know more about her real personality.

Your familily tries to not hurt you and find her some excuses, but there are no excuses for this behavior.

[Maxx2]

While there are these red flags, as my family pointed out, it has only been 7 days.  That's a pretty short time to throw away everything.  Don't get me wrong:  that's what I'm leaning towards, but part of me feels like I should see how another week or two turns out.  After all, we have 90 days.  And she did quit her job and leave her housing situation in order to be with me; that's a pretty big deal.  After making her do that and then forcing her to go back after one week....  that seems like an asshole move on my part.

It is called the 'previous investment trap.' If I was in you shoes I would make an appointment with an immigration attorney and tell him/her what you have been observing, what he thinks is likely to happen and what you can do to protect yourself. FIND OUT IF SHE CAN USE AN ABUSE CLAIM TO STAY EVEN THOUGH YOU HAV'NT MARRIED HER YET. I've heard the USCIS got even more liberal with the I-360s in the recent years.   


I went through this myself when my Russian wife entered the US on a spousal visa. She was as cold as ice starting at the airport. I seen an immigration attorney 5 weeks after her arrival. He told me exactly every that would happen and it did, false allegations of abuse. Even her new Russian 'friends' helped her in her scam. Most of the old timers here know my story. If you listen to your emotions and ignore the advice of the attorney or some of the experienced ones here you are going to regret it. It was the worst experience of my life.

[vwrw]

I'd write her a letter, showing you are concerned about her behaviour and even mention you simply do not understand her behaviour ...... She may not want to talk - but her reaction might be revealing.

Do not be angry or confrontational - simply state that you feel her behaviour is not what you would expect a couple - that should be investing time with each other - to judge the suitability of furthering their relationship - should behave. 

Sender, I had been in your lady's position. My first engagement to AM was a failure. He was a nice guy, I came to US with a sincere intention to build a life with him. Within a week, I was so homesick I cried most of the days. I also was on the phone with Russian speaking people often. All our conversations were about how I should deal with my unexpected misery. I loved US, but the relationship with my ex did not go as I expected. The RW in US would say to me that I would get used to living here, I did not want to get used to being unhappy. My English was poor at that time and since the topic was sensitive, I found it so hard to discuss what was going on in person. Perhaps because we both, my fiancee and I,  were confused and emotional, it did not come to our minds to communicate in writing. I went home after 21 days or so.  [/font]

I like msmob's advice. If I were you, I would try to communicate with her in writing in a non-confrontational and non-accusatory manner. I would say something like ....you understand that she is going through tough time, perhaps, her expectations about her new life here were not met in some way and you would appreciate it if she could make efforts to explain to you what is going on in her head right now. I would say that you have much in common right now because you also feel confused and stressed because things are not going as you expected either.  You also go through life-changing events, like she does. Ask her to respond in writing because it is a touchy and emotional topic. If she cares about you, she will make efforts to explain herself.   Good luck to you both.

[vwrw]

Today, the 7th day here, she announced she has met Russian people who live in the city and she's going out with them this weekend, and going to a rock concert with them next weekend.

How did she meet the Russian people? It is not that easy to find Russian speaking friends in your city even if you look for them. In my case, the agency gave me the contact info for RW who were living in the same state. 

[vwrw]

The lack of intimacy is what would concern me.  Someone who has feelings for you, enough that she is willing to leave her life for you, should want to have her hands on you all the time when you are reunited and new in a relationship.  That's why I asked about the age difference and how well you knew each other.

I doubt that it was things that she knew about him, such as his age, that turned her off. Most likely it was new things that she discovered about him by being introduced to his environment that turned her off.   

[BillyB]

FIND OUT IF SHE CAN USE AN ABUSE CLAIM TO STAY EVEN THOUGH YOU HAV'NT MARRIED HER YET.

It's possible for a person to obtain the right to stay in America even if they came on a K-1 and don't marry their fiancée/fiancé and are a victim of DV. Check out U-Visa.

http://www.womenslaw.org/laws_state_type.php?id=10271&state_code=US

It is not that easy to find Russian speaking friends in your city even if you look for them.

Mamba.ru brings FSU people together anywhere in the world. A girl can sign up and communicate with other girls from any city and if Sender's girl has a profile in his city or nearby city, tons of men will write her and happily take her out to a rock concert.

Sender, I had been in your lady's position. My first engagement to AM was a failure. He was a nice guy, I came to US with a sincere intention to build a life with him. Within a week, I was so homesick I cried most of the days. I also was on the phone with Russian speaking people often.

If what Sender described was exactly what you described, I doubt people would raise the alarms. We'd encourage him to make the transition to life in America smoother for his fiancée. We'd probably recommend getting the girl out of the house and doing activities that are fun or peaceful like a walk in the park.

Most likely it was new things that she discovered about him by being introduced to his environment that turned her off.
   

Sender may be an unpleasant guy to live with. He may be living in the ghetto. His house could be dirty. There could be 100 marijuana plants growing in there. If the environment Sender brought her to or if there is a problem with Sender himself is the cause of her grief that make her give Sender the silent treatment, the girl should be running and making plans to go home, not go to a rock concert.

[SANDRO43]

My English was poor at that time

You have made an astonishing progress  

[Steamer]

It's been exactly one week since she has arrived.  During that time, she has gotten even more quiet towards me, barely talking to me.  She shrugs off any attempts at intimacy.  She talks with her friends and family for hours every day on her phone.  Today, the 7th day here, she announced she has met Russian people who live in the city and she's going out with them this weekend, and going to a rock concert with them next weekend.

                          DANGER WILL ROBINSON, DANGER !!


She's been here 1 week and she's going out with her "new" R/buddies without you?
I would think (and rethink) about marrying this one.

[ML]

Rather than go off topic on here, I responded to ML by starting a new thread:
http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=21903.0

Good call; thanks.
I should have done that myself.

Sender did answer one of my questions about prior intimacy.

However, I would like to hear from him whether or not he did travel to meet her for the first time on a WOVO trip.

How about it Sender ?

[vwrw]

Thank you Sandro =)


Billy, we do not know who are the people who invited her to the rock concert. Sender did not mention their gender. They will speak Russian during their get-together, taking Sender along would force them to speak English, and they probably do not want to do that.  Maybe, Sender has plans for the weekend when the concert takes place and knowing that, she did not offer him to join them.   

[Sender]

Hey vwrw,

Thanks for your thoughts and feedback.  I think it's good to hear things from the opposite side, the female side, and it's even more helpful to hear it from a woman who has been in this exact position.

Let me ask you:  With your first engagement to an AM, when you were feeling homesick for Russia, do you think it was best you broke things off and went home after 21 days?  I mean, if you time-traveled back to that position again, would you still leave?  Do you think that was for the best?

[BillyB]

Billy, we do not know who are the people who invited her to the rock concert. Sender did not mention their gender. They will speak Russian during their get-together, taking Sender along would force them to speak English, and they probably do not want to do that.  Maybe, Sender has plans for the weekend when the concert takes place and knowing that, she did not offer him to join them.

We do know the lady chose to marry Sender, not those other people. We do know she is "supposed" to be in love with Sender more than those other people. We do know she is choosing to conduct activities and speak to with those other people more than with Sender. I seriously doubt she is giving those other people the silent treatment.

Even if this woman isn't using Sender for a green card, it seems she is lacking love for Sender. That alone is a reason Sender should call it off and stop wasting time for her to come around.

The other stuff we're warning Sender about is to protect himself. DV is a serious crime and goes on a man's record for life and it has been used numerous times by insincere women to break off a relationship early while maintaining the right to stay in America. Sender works for the police department based on what he said a couple of years ago. A charge like DV may cost him his job.

If Sender insists on giving this woman one more week to see if she changes, he MAN up and insist on going to the concert too. He should show his fiancée he wants to conduct family activities with her and he cares about her safety since she is meeting "strangers". Her response will be telling.

[Sender]

Real quick question: 

Do you know any other WM/FSUW couples here in LA?  Rather than tackle this head on, it might help you out to find someone who has been through this and have the wife talk to your woman and find out what's really up.  I can think of a couple of couples here.  (I am in the South Bay.)  If you want, PM me and I'll try to hook you up. 

But the idea that she's willing to go out on you, without you, to be with her friends in the first week demonstrates complete lack of judgement on her part. 

I honestly am surprised that you didn't set up a couples bonding type relationship to head this off up front.  Some of the guys on here have gone out of their way to make sure that the first few people who walk through that door after their woman arrived were Russian nationals who's job entailed making the transition easier.

Hey Jone,

Sorry about the delay in response, but I was really hesitant to mention the city I live in, despite mentioning it in my intro thread in the newbie section previously.  I'm just paranoid about somehow being identified and this forum thread coming back to bite me.

Regardless, I guess I may as well identify where I live as it was already posted.  But you welcomed me and we discussed things in my newbie thread back when I posted it, and I live in Sacramento, not L.A.

All I'll say is there was a Russian national here for the first five days that I thought ideally would help her get adjusted to things.  But she was kind of apathetic about it (as she is apathetic about most things, it seems).  I'll feel more comfortable going into specifics after this situation has been resolved, so try not to read too much into that until then.

[Sender]

How did she meet the Russian people? It is not that easy to find Russian speaking friends in your city even if you look for them. In my case, the agency gave me the contact info for RW who were living in the same state.

Well, as I just disclosed, I do live in Sacramento, which has one of the biggest Russian populations in the entire U.S. (I have no idea why).  I mean, there are stores with store signs only in Russian right down the street from where I live.  Walking around my neighborhood, you can hear people speaking Russian.  I went to a Target nearby, and some employees were speaking Russian.

So with such a large, noticeable population of Russian people -- one of the biggest in the U.S. -- I assume it would be pretty easy to meet some other Russians.

[vwrw]

Hey vwrw,

Thanks for your thoughts and feedback.  I think it's good to hear things from the opposite side, the female side, and it's even more helpful to hear it from a woman who has been in this exact position.

Let me ask you:  With your first engagement to an AM, when you were feeling homesick for Russia, do you think it was best you broke things off and went home after 21 days?  I mean, if you time-traveled back to that position again, would you still leave?  Do you think that was for the best?

You are welcome, Sender.
After almost 9 years of marriage, I can confidently say - a relationship between two people are easy if the people are compatible. I did not experience any difficulty when I was adjusting to my new life with my now husband.

It was a good decision for both of us that I left. Regardless of how much we both wanted the relationship to work, I think we both would be unhappy if we tried to make our relationship work instead of moving on with our lives.  A 5-6 years ago, I was removing my old emails from my old email address and saw a few of his old emails to me. I became curious about how he was doing so I searched his name on Facebook. He was married to a RW, had two sons, and seemed to do well. Obviously, what turned me off did not bother his now wife. So if your present relationship fails, do not despair. The person who pursues his/her dreams will find what s/he is looking for.


I think if she was with you to get a green card, she would show her best behavior right now until she has gotten the card. Something has happened that made her disenchanted with your relationship. While she has her conversations with Russian speaking friends, she is probably deciding if she should try to put up with the situation or not.

[Sender]

I think if she was with you to get a green card, she would show her best behavior right now until she has gotten the card. Something has happened that made her disenchanted with your relationship. While she has her conversations with Russian speaking friends, she is probably deciding if she should try to put up with the situation or not.

I was actually thinking the same thing.

Regardless, everyone here is saying to end things ASAP, and don't worry, I will.  Again, I'll let everyone know how it turns out.

[wallm]

Something has happened that made her disenchanted with your relationship. While she has her conversations with Russian speaking friends, she is probably deciding if she should try to put up with the situation or not.

If I were in your shoes, Sender, I would end it NOW. I would have a conversation immediately, give her money to buy ticket back home plus a bit more to get back on her legs and wish her well. Do not compromise and do not ask her to compromise on whatever made her to become disenchanted. It is not worth it.

[BillyB]

I think if she was with you to get a green card, she would show her best behavior right now until she has gotten the card.

Being on the one's best behavior may have been a necessity years ago when a foreign woman had to marry an American man and stay married to him for a minimum of two years to get a permanent green card. Anything less, she'd get deported. No exceptions.

These days there are exceptions. Claiming DV is a way some women get out a relationship quickly and still get the green card. Some women tend to act bad on purpose to get their man to snap. Physical evidence of DV isn't needed. Emotional abuse can be claimed and qualify as DV. A good woman would not file false DV charges on her man, even if she's not getting along with him. Sender is not sure what kind of women he's dealing with. He needs to prepare himself for the worst just in case he's dealing with a GCG. When ending it, he needs to be polite and not make any accusations she's using him. He should keep it short and simple saying they're not compatible.

[2tallbill]

Well, as I just disclosed, I do live in Sacramento, which has one of the biggest Russian populations in the entire U.S. (I have no idea why).  I mean, there are stores with store signs only in Russian right down the street from where I live.  Walking around my neighborhood, you can hear people speaking Russian.  I went to a Target nearby, and some employees were speaking Russian.

So with such a large, noticeable population of Russian people -- one of the biggest in the U.S. -- I assume it would be pretty easy to meet some other Russians.

Hey Jone,

Sorry about the delay in response, but I was really hesitant to mention the city I live in, despite mentioning it in my intro thread in the newbie section previously.  I'm just paranoid about somehow being identified and this coming back to bite me.

Regardless, I guess I may as well identify where I live as it was already posted.  But you welcomed me and we discussed things in my newbie thread back when I posted it, and I live in Sacramento, not L.A.

All I'll say is there was a Russian national here for the first five days that I thought ideally would help her get adjusted to things.  But she was kind of apathetic about it (as she is apathetic about most things, it seems).  I'll feel more comfortable going into specifics after this situation has been resolved, so try not to read too much into that until then.

There are many Russian and Ukrainians in Sacratomato, they even have a Ukrainian
radio station. In the Bay Area they have a Russian Yellow pages.

Now to your situation,

******Warning tough love below********
******Warning tough love below********
******Warning tough love below********
******Warning tough love below********


You don't have a fiancée, you have an unexploded yet armed thermonuclear
warhead. When she went off to social events without you and when her friends
are apathetic towards you, it's because you are the pet calf that hasn't been
given a name because it will be eaten.

I hope I am wrong, but I'm not. FSUW don't act that way when they are with a
man they care about. It's not something that is going to turn around. It can only
get bad or worse. That fake DV may actually happen and you will have a very, very
bad experience, that was avoidable and you have been warned about. 

vwrw realized she was with the wrong man and she went back home because she's
not the type of person who would destroy a man just because they both made a
mistake. I don't know you or your girl or anything about her except that it's not
going to work out between you.

Most men don't read advice (especially like this) and then follow it. They look for
advice which tells them that they should keep going or some spark that signals
that all will be ok in the end. You might get lucky and the girl won't try to wreck
your life by accusing you of DV, having you go to jail and then having a criminal
record for abusing women, after which you will still be responsible for all of her
financial needs and of course you will get to pay for her lawyers.

I hate that I had to say that, I don't think that you will head my advice but there
are newbies reading this and maybe they will act more proactively as a result of
this.

This is for Newbies not the OP.
1. You want to know everything possible about a woman before you get engaged.
This means that you need to have discussions about everything from sexual frequency
to cats on the bed to what goes in the refrigerator vs can be stored in the cupboards
to what are her pet peeves to the raising of children and preparing for retirement.
You really need to know what your girls opinion is on everything. If you don't then
you aren't ready to marry her. 

2. Do not ignore red flags, they need to be investigated. If in doubt, throw her out.

3. While you need to be cautiously optimistic, you MUST be prepared to dump a girl
and start over. It doesn't matter how much time, money and emotions you have tied
up in a girl, it's far better to find the right girl then to hope it works with the wrong girl.

4. Never accept bad behavior from a girl just because she is hot. You only accept bad
behavior is when she is naked, in fur handcuffs and is ready for her spanking.


This is for the OP
When it's over please let us know how everything worked out. I really
wish you the best and sincerely hope for your success in the future.

Udachi!

Bill

[Boethius]

If I were in your shoes, Sender, I would end it NOW. I would have a conversation immediately, give her money to buy ticket back home plus a bit more to get back on her legs and wish her well. Do not compromise and do not ask her to compromise on whatever made her to become disenchanted. It is not worth it.

I don't find the comparisons an issue.  Lots of immigrants make those comparisons.  Eventually, they subside.  I also don't find it unusual to seek people who speak your language.  The distancing is what would concern me in OP's shoes.

[Boethius]

This is for Newbies not the OP.
1. You want to know everything possible about a woman before you get engaged.
This means that you need to have discussions about everything from sexual frequency
to cats on the bed to what goes in the refrigerator vs can be stored in the cupboards
to what are her pet peeves to the raising of children and preparing for retirement.
You really need to know what your girls opinion is on everything. If you don't then
you aren't ready to marry her. 

I've said it before, but I'll say it again.  I don't think any of these things matter.  I think what is important is that your values align roughly.  They don't have to be identical, but the big picture items on what is important to you in life need to align, more or less.