Putin is Ruining Russia

[Photo Guy]

You would have to be totally blind to not see that the top separatist leaders are Russian citizens.

And it's hilarious for Russia to offer to send peacekeeping forces into Ukraine.
'Should we blow up that tank over there? Is it a separatist tank from Russia or a peacekeeping tank from Russia?!'

When someone says the US should give eastern Ukraine away, there's a total lack of consideration for the Ukrainians themselves.   

[Photo Guy]

Strelkov - Girkin

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Igor_Girkin

[Photo Guy]

Another terrorist from Russia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Borodai

[Doll]

You would have to be totally blind to not see that the top separatist leaders are Russian citizens.

Did you see their passports? Or you visually can tell Russian from Ukrainian. I can't

[Manny]

When someone says the US should give eastern Ukraine away, there's a total lack of consideration for the Ukrainians themselves.

It ain't America's to give away. But an interesting window into your thinking.

[Boethius]

It ain't America's to give away. But an interesting window into your thinking.

He was referring to the huffpo piece FT linked.

[AC]

I wonder how accepting Manny would be if Irish troops set up the "People's Republic of Northern England", sent IRA members to "liberate" northern England, took their orders from the IRA, looted his home, kidnapped him or worse, his child for ransom, and tortured his neighbours, all while taking orders from Sinn Fein.  Because that is exactly what he expects Ukrainians to accept.

Sounds about right.  Are you accepting of this idea?  And if not, why not?  Why not accept anything less, than what you expect from others who find themselves in a war zone due to an invading neighbor?

[AC]

It seems that more and more Russians are voting with their feet:


http://uk.reuters.com/article/2014/07/24/uk-russia-putin-emigration-idUKKBN0FT0I920140724


"Russia's statistics service Rosstat data shows 186,382 moved abroad in 2013 and 122,751 in 2012, compared to 36,774 in 2011 and 33,578 in 2010.

But experts say the real number is much higher.

"The official statistics on migration are very low," said Mikhail Gorshkov, director of the Russian Academy of Sciences' Institute of Sociology (ISRAS), a state-funded body.

"It's a wake up call for our politicians when someone wants to leave their home country: What is missing for him?"

Echoing the post-Soviet brain drain, sociologists say Russia is bleeding exactly the kind of people it needs to plug a skilled labour shortage and diversify the economy away from reliance on energy exports.

"We are losing the most educated, most active, most entrepreneurial people," Lev Gudkov, director of the independent Moscow-based Levada Centre pollster. "The Kremlin sees this in a cynical way - as a way to let off steam."

He estimated that three million Russians have left over the last decade, as many as in the first few years after the Soviet Union collapsed when Russia was in political and economic chaos."

[Photo Guy]

Did you see their passports? Or you visually can tell Russian from Ukrainian. I can't

You did not look at those links?

[Boethius]

An unintentional rebuttal to the huffpo apologist -


http://www.themoscowtimes.com/opinion/article/siren-call-of-empire-will-wreck-russia/504196.html

[Photo Guy]

These links are for Doll:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Igor_Girkin
and
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Borodai

[AC]

Putin is ruining himself as much as he is ruining Russia:


"A 'Russian Lockerbie'

"Behind the scenes in the Kremlin, away from the official television propaganda, uncertainty is beginning to spread. Putin himself has seemed agitated and nervous in his latest television appearances.

Voices claiming that Russia's intervention in eastern Ukraine has turned into a disaster are growing louder, as are those who consider the shooting down of MH 17 to be a turning point. Moscow-based journalist and columnist Yulia Latynina described the events as a "Russian Lockerbie." And the editor-in-chief of the daily Nezavisimaya Gazeta is even predicting Putin's descent to the status of political "pariah" because he armed rebels in eastern Ukraine.

A program on radio broadcaster Echo of Moscow, which is at least half-way independent, came to the conclusion last week that the situation had blindsided Putin. Political scientist Stanislav Belkovsky said in the program that the president had come across as being quite optimistic prior to the shooting down of MH 17. The separatists had encircled the Ukrainian army south of Donetsk and Putin believed he was on the verge of being able to force the West to negotiate over Ukraine's fate. That, Belkovski believes, was the goal of Putin's interference in Ukraine all along. But the shooting down of the aircraft has altered the situation and Moscow's support for the rebels wound up costing the lives of 298 innocent people. "This has made clear once and for all that Putin can no longer disentangle himself from the separatists."
 

http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/a-trip-to-the-site-of-the-crash-of-flight-mh-17-a-983268.html

[Doll]

These links are for Doll:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Igor_Girkin
and
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Borodai

I saw it,  thanks

[GQBlues]

I saw it,  thanks

Doll-

I know this, and others like it, doesn't get much airplay in the west but I'm curious to know if you at least have seen these...

You think this is propaganda or is it really happening in Kiev?


This one is in English and apparently happened in western Ukraine...

[GQBlues]

This one only has less than 700 views, LOL!

This is what he's supposed to be saying in English...correct it if the translation is wrong..


>>My first duty is to save the Ukrainian people. First of all, I have to protect people, not territorial integrity. I have been drafted into the army. They want me to go to war to kill guys from Donbass, who took the same oath as I did. What I want to say... is the army command urges me to protect the territorial integrity of Ukraine. Then they'll give it away to the EU and USA.

Only a stupid man* would not understand this.

I want to say more... I served in tank force 'Desna'. I took an oath under the red flag of the army. It was the 'Alexander Nevsky' regiment. Think about it! In this regiment, now, are those who set fire to internal security troops at Maidan square, who shot my brothers in special units, who study how to fire anti-tank missiles.

They learn infantry weapons, like all ground forces. They are now preparing to kill guys who don't agree with them, who have different positions. They would kill police officers who refuse to obey their orders. It's a fact. This is what I mean to say.

People, look at me. I am 22. I do not smoke or drink. I am of the gene pool of this country. It's a fact. Because of them [junta], the day after tomorrow you will bury guys like me. Do you understand? This is a big responsibility for you.

I urge you all, however possible, not to shed blood. Show prudence, stick to your position—for peace. Of course, if war breaks out, I urge you to provide all possible support for protests against the junta [Kiev government]. Be good people! Down with the junta! The army and the people together!<<

Is this propaganda, Doll, or is it real?

[Doll]

Blues, propaganda is there from both sides
The translation is close
Again, I don't think anybody wants to die .

[Manny]

I wonder how accepting Manny would be if Irish troops set up the "People's Republic of Northern England", sent IRA members to "liberate" northern England, took their orders from the IRA, looted his home, kidnapped him or worse, his child for ransom, and tortured his neighbours, all while taking orders from Sinn Fein.  Because that is exactly what he expects Ukrainians to accept.

You might have missed it, but Northern Ireland lived in a state of quasi-war for many years. The terrorists did many bombings and killings on the mainland too. The IRA - a proper terrorist organisation - was backed with a lot of American money as it goes. Fancy that.......

The UK solved it by letting them all out of prison, and making the terrorist leaders pukker politicians. If Gerry Adams and Martin McGuinness can be accepted as legitimate politicians, there is hope for these blokes in the east of Ukraine yet.

Fast forward a few years and some of these blokes might be taking tea at the whitehouse. 

[jone]

There, fix that for you. Places like Kosovo, Afghanistan, Iran, etc...and of course...Ukraine. I'm happy you finally see the light.

First I had to educate you to the meaning of the word *feminist*, then had to break your star & striped blinders and silly *generous attitude* perspective on global economics. But really...I'm really tired having to educate you on things you think you know. I rather enjoy you stumble around a bit on your own...

So for now, run along and post social media feeds in support of things you think you know. It's hysterical to watch really..

Where is the smoking gun, GQ?  Or do you simply make this all up in your mind for your own amusement and subject the forum to it.  You have never once showed any valid evidence that the US was involved in Maidan.  And we know you aren't going to show it now.

Your grand evidence?  Victoria Nuland's phone call?  Hey everyone, GQ bases his whole foreign policy diatribe on Victoria Nuland's phone call where she gives an opinion that she doesn't want Yulia Tymoshenko as the next President! 

Show us some evidence, GQ.  No more insults.  Just evidence.  We're betting you don't have any.

[Manny]

And it's hilarious for Russia to offer to send peacekeeping forces into Ukraine.

Putin has the capability to stop the junta killing civilians.

Better than handing out cookies.

[Boethius]

You might have missed it, but Northern Ireland lived in a state of quasi-war for many years. The terrorists did many bombings and killings on the mainland too. The IRA - a proper terrorist organisation - was backed with a lot of American money as it goes. Fancy that.......

The UK solved it by letting them all out of prison, and making the terrorist leaders pukker politicians. If Gerry Adams and Martin McGuinness can be accepted as legitimate politicians, there is hope for these blokes in the east of Ukraine yet.

Fast forward a few years and some of these blokes might be taking tea at the whitehouse.

The IRA didn't occupy Northern England though, did they?   And had they, you would have thought it completely reasonable?

[Boethius]

Putin has the capability to stop the junta killing civilians.


Better than handing out cookies.

Civilians would not be dying (at the hands of both the terrorists and ATO) if the terrorists put down their arms.  Putin does have influence there.  He's stated so himself.

[Manny]

Civilians would not be dying (at the hands of both the terrorists and ATO) if the terrorists put down their arms.  Putin does have influence there.  He's stated so himself.

Civilians would not be dying if the EU and the US had kept their nose out.

[Boethius]

How many Americans are leading ATO forces?  How many EU members?  Which EU states are funding the Ukrainian military?  How much of ATO's weaponry has been supplied by the US or EU?  Tanks?  Planes?  GRADS?  Guns?  Uniforms?


Russia, OTOH, has a direct line to the terrorists.  After all, a majority of them are Russian citizens, not residents of Donetsk or Luhansk.  Russian weaponry is used, they aren't even covert in moving it across the border.

[Doll]

Civilians would not be dying if the EU and the US had kept their nose out.

This too.
Boe, speaking of "who started all this"- "all this" actually started in 2004 in Ukraine by Ukraninans. You know what I am talking about.
In October 2013 happened what happened but the whole thing dates 2004.

[Gator]

The IRA - a proper terrorist organisation - was backed with a lot of American money as it goes. Fancy that.......

Misleading; some may confuse your accusation as US government money. 

A few Americans of Irish descent secretly supported the IRA.  How did that happen?  Could it be the Anglo landlords repressed the Irish people in the land of their forefathers, compelling many who were not starved to death to emigrate to America.  There some never forgot and it was passed from generation to generation. 

The connections run deep.   Walk into any pub in Ireland and someone with his hand around a Guinness  will know a friend or a cousin living in your home town. 

BTW, I never condoned the IRA.