More Bad News for Russia

[mendeleyev]

I believe the Kremlin assumed Ukraine would capitulate.  They never anticipated a fight.  They also assumed all of Ukraine from Kharkiv, east and south, would welcome Russian annexation.

Exactly. That is why Yanukonvict was left out in the cold after he was spirited across the border to Russia. The Kremlin had little to no contact because they knew he would want Ukraine left intact as his personal fiefdom.

The insertion of special ops and FSB plainclothes goons as "local" rebel leaders were only meant to prime the pump, to get the process started. They thought that it would snowball from there.
 

[jone]

Exactly. That is why Yanukonvict was left out in the cold after he was spirited across the border to Russia. The Kremlin had little to no contact because they knew he would want Ukraine left intact as his personal fiefdom.

The insertion of special ops and FSB plainclothes goons as "local" rebel leaders were only meant to prime the pump, to get the process started. They thought that it would snowball from there.

My take as well.  That was one of the reasons that they attacked the Kharkov Opera House instead of the Mayor's office.  I think you hit the right word with 'Goons'.

[Belvis]

I disagree.  I believe the Kremlin assumed Ukraine would capitulate.  They never anticipated a fight.  They also assumed all of Ukraine from Kharkiv, east and south, would welcome Russian annexation.

I'm wandering how well Boe can read thoughts of the Kremlin. Intelligent services of world would broil from envy.
As we say in Russia, Ukrainians like to invent the enemy and then fight with him. Putin said crystal clear his intentions in march 2014: Crimea is Russian, Ukraine needs federalization to keep unity. He still keeps his line. If Ukraine rejects federalization,  Donbass will separate from Ukraine to protectorate of Russia.
Though I know where Boe takes her guess-works about Kremlin, I was reading too in social networks and blogs of Russian nationalists.

[jone]

I'm wandering how well Boe can read thoughts of the Kremlin. Intelligent services of world would broil from envy.
As we say in Russia, Ukrainians like to invent the enemy and then fight with him. Putin said crystal clear his intentions in march 2014: Crimea is Russian, Ukraine needs federalization to keep unity. He still keeps his line. If Ukraine rejects federalization,  Donbass will separate from Ukraine to protectorate of Russia.
Though I know where Boe takes her guess-works about Kremlin, I was reading too in social networks and blogs of Russian nationalists.

Yes, Russia sets a great example for Federalization.  NOT!  It is possible that Eastern Ukrainians would be marching from the frying pan into the fire.  With the people that are left in Donbas, Ukraine would be better off separating from Eastern Ukraine and letting them assimilate into Russia.  But, perhaps, Belvis, you forgot to mention the other things that Putin has said about Ukraine.  Like:  "Ukraine is ours!"  Putin had no intention of letting Ukraine get anywhere near to a European economy.  That is the true story of the war between Russia and Ukraine.

Russia has no desire to see Federalization in Ukraine.  While Russia uses that as the official line, the underscore is that Ukraine is currently being run by a bunch of Nazi thieves.  Yes, for the past month I have watched Russian television, had beers with Russian guys and read Russian newspapers.  You speak like an official mouthpiece of the Russian government.  But you and I both know the true story.

[Belvis]

Putin has said about Ukraine.  Like:  "Ukraine is ours!"  Putin had no intention of letting Ukraine get anywhere near to a European economy.

Could you please give a link where Putin is saying  "Ukraine is ours!". I understand you thinks Putin is all-powerful man, however even Putin has no might to stop Ukraine from moving to a European economy. This can do only Ukrainians.

While Russia uses that as the official line, the underscore is that Ukraine is currently being run by a bunch of Nazi thieves.  Yes, for the past month I have watched Russian television, had beers with Russian guys and read Russian newspapers.  You speak like an official mouthpiece of the Russian government.  But you and I both know the true story.

Yes, I'm saying you what Russian government intend to do. Because you have beers with Russian nationalists and voices their intentions.

[Boethius]

I'm wandering how well Boe can read thoughts of the Kremlin. Intelligent services of world would broil from envy.
As we say in Russia, Ukrainians like to invent the enemy and then fight with him. Putin said crystal clear his intentions in march 2014: Crimea is Russian, Ukraine needs federalization to keep unity. He still keeps his line. If Ukraine rejects federalization,  Donbass will separate from Ukraine to protectorate of Russia.
Though I know where Boe takes her guess-works about Kremlin, I was reading too in social networks and blogs of Russian nationalists.

Tens of millions of dead Ukrainians over the centuries tells me Ukrainians don't need to invent an enemy.


As for my ability to read the Kremlin, nothing I have "read" was even hidden.  Who were the first "leaders" of the DNR and LNR?  Muscovites with ties to the FSB and old GRU.


Why would Putin decide what form of government Ukraine needs? 


It is in Ukraine's interests to let the so called LNR and DNR to separate.   The bandits now running the DNR can continue to take their orders from Moscow, and you, as a Russian taxpayer, can subsidize their dying industry (coal) and the mouth breathers and criminals who still live there.

[fathertime]

Russia has no desire to see Federalization in Ukraine.  While Russia uses that as the official line, the underscore is that Ukraine is currently being run by a bunch of Nazi thieves.  Yes, for the past month I have watched Russian television, had beers with Russian guys and read Russian newspapers.  You speak like an official mouthpiece of the Russian government. But you and I both know the true story.

What does having the beers with Russian's mean in terms of Ukraine? 



...and what is the true story then (according to you)?


Fathertime!   

[jone]

More revisionist history from Russia:

http://news.yahoo.com/poles-furious-russia-blames-them-starting-wwii-122545678.html

Apparently the Russian Ambassador to Poland has found new ways to make friends and influence people.  He says that Poland was partially responsible for the onset of WWII by refusing to join joint treaties against Nazi Germany.  He, of course, neglected to mention that Russia and Germany conducted secret meetings and created a secret alliance which destroyed the Polish state at the beginning of the war.

Can you imagine if you were a Pole and reading such a statement how you would feel towards Russia?  Great job, Ambassador!

[Belvis]

More revisionist history from Russia:

http://news.yahoo.com/poles-furious-russia-blames-them-starting-wwii-122545678.html

Apparently the Russian Ambassador to Poland has found new ways to make friends and influence people.  He says that Poland was partially responsible for the onset of WWII by refusing to join joint treaties against Nazi Germany.  He, of course, neglected to mention that Russia and Germany conducted secret meetings and created a secret alliance which destroyed the Polish state at the beginning of the war.

Can you imagine if you were a Pole and reading such a statement how you would feel towards Russia?  Great job, Ambassador!

Because you don't know the history of WWII I feel an obligation to educate you. Then you'll understand what Ambassador meant, and what Poles know better than you.
Cites from Wikipedia in article Munich Agreement in 1938:

On 22 May, Juliusz Łukasiewicz, the Polish ambassador to France, told the French Foreign Minister Georges Bonnet that if France moved against Germany in defense of Czechoslovakia: "We shall not move." Łukasiewicz also told Bonnet that Poland would oppose any attempt by Soviet forces to defend Czechoslovakia from Germany. Daladier told Jakob Surits, the Soviet ambassador to France: "Not only can we not count on Polish support but we have no faith that Poland will not strike us in the back."
...
Sequence of events following the Munich Agreement:
1. Germany occupies the Sudetenland (October 1938).
2. Poland annexes Zaolzie, an area with a Polish plurality, over which the two countries had fought a war in 1919 (October 1938).

[jone]

It is you, Belvis who hasn't a clue.

If you are an ambassador, your job is to create goodwill between countries.  Such discussions are the last thing in the world an ambassador should do.   Your ambassador's job is to create avenues of friendship, joint business and cultural outreach.  The lead sponsor of friendship between nations should not be subjecting the nation where he is a guest in to discussions that they were responsible for their own destruction.   Moreover, Poland is not too keen on the communist yolk and dictatorship your country threw over their country for 50 years.  It would be additional reasons not to open a discussion as to who was responsible for WWII.

Your mentality is that of the Russian leadership.  You think you can offend, rob, kill people and expect them to have good relations with you.

A perfect example of this is your leadership's response to Ukraine taking away the Ukrainian market from Russian airlines.  They say it is an insanity by the Ukrainian government.  To everyone else in the world that is watching your country beat the shit out of Ukraine, they say it is about time.

If you can understand the last paragraph you will begin to understand how the world perceives you and how wrong your ambassador was to even broach such a topic.

[Belvis]

  It would be additional reasons not to open a discussion as to who was responsible for WWII.

As I understand the discussion was started not by the Ambassador. Poles like to be in position blaming Russia for their misfortunes, they like to recall 1939 but lose memory about 1938.
So, truth and only the truth.  Knowing the historical truth will prevent many troubles.

A perfect example of this is your leadership's response to Ukraine taking away the Ukrainian market from Russian airlines.  They say it is an insanity by the Ukrainian government.  To everyone else in the world that is watching your country beat the shit out of Ukraine, they say it is about time.

I think too this act of Ukrainian government is an insanity. Since Russia-Ukrainian flights were populated by Ukrainians for 70%, these Ukrainians will enjoy train travels in near future. They can't avoid the travels because they work in Russia.  Of course, I don't cast doubt that Ukrainian government has full authority to impose problems on its own citizens.

[sleepycat]

I think too this act of Ukrainian government is an insanity.

As compared to your government's act of driving bulldozers over seized Italian cheese?
 

[jone]

As I understand the discussion was started not by the Ambassador. Poles like to be in position blaming Russia for their misfortunes, they like to recall 1939 but lose memory about 1938.
So, truth and only the truth.  Knowing the historical truth will prevent many troubles.
I think too this act of Ukrainian government is an insanity. Since Russia-Ukrainian flights were populated by Ukrainians for 70%, these Ukrainians will enjoy train travels in near future. They can't avoid the travels because they work in Russia.  Of course, I don't cast doubt that Ukrainian government has full authority to impose problems on its own citizens.

Welcome to the Russian Women Discussion Forum, ladies and gentlemen.  Russian will never, ever, get it.  When you are a diplomat and you insult your host country, do not expect to be liked, or, for that matter, even reasoned with.  Russians deal with issues with a sledge hammer. 

Belvis is one of those people who typify the Russian mentality.  He will defend indefensible actions until the cows come home.  Rather than saying, 'yeah, our ambassador was pretty out there discussing Russia's actions in invading Poland as a self defense measure (yes I did read his entire comments) and he should have KEPT HIS MOUTH SHUT.  Belvis will try and come up with ways to make the ambassador's actions appropriate, particularly in the eyes of other Russians. 

As for the Poles, do you have any idea how much those people hate the Russians?  There is a sub group that still wishes for the old communist days, but that subset is dying away.  What is left is pure hatred. Particularly with what the Poles see Russia doing in Ukraine.

[Brasscasing]

Because you don't know the history of WWII I feel an obligation to educate you. Then you'll understand what Ambassador meant, and what Poles know better than you.
Cites from Wikipedia in article Munich Agreement in 1938:

...And it appears you don't know the history of post WW1. 

You do understand that the reason the Poles refused to agree to militarily intervene in Czechoslovakia was that they understood that the majority of Czechoslovakians were of German ethnicity (see Sudetenland), were pro-Nazi and would side with the German annexation (as they in fact did) when it happened( see Munich Agreement).

The Polish government had already determined that the treaties France and the UK had signed to defend Czechoslovakia were not going to be honored, essentially garbage, the Czechoslovakians had already been betrayed to appease Hitler and should  the Nazi's invade (which they did) that France and the Britain would not go to war (which they didn't).

...Czechoslovakia[edit]

See also: German occupation of Czechoslovakia

The term Western betrayal (Czech: zrada Západu) was coined after the 1938 Munich Conference when Czechoslovakia was forced to cede the mostly German-populated Sudetenland to Germany. The region contained the Czechoslovak border fortifications and means of viable defence against German invasion.[15][16][17] Germany invaded and occupied Czechoslovakia a year later.

Along with Italy and Nazi Germany, the Munich treaty was signed by Britain and France - Czechoslovakia's allies. Czechoslovakia was allied by treaty with France, and Great Britain was in turn allied with France, so both countries would be obliged to help Czechoslovakia if it was attacked.[citation needed] The Munich treaty and the subsequent occupation exposed Czechoslovak citizens to the Nazi regime and its atrocities.

Czech politicians joined the newspapers in regularly using the term Western betrayal and it, along with the associated feelings, became a stereotype among Czechs. The Czech terms Mnichov (Munich), Mnichovská zrada (Munich betrayal), Mnichovský diktát (Munich Dictate) and zrada spojenců (betrayal of the allies) were coined at the same time and have the same meaning. Poet František Halas published a poem with verse about "ringing bell of betrayal".[18]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_betrayal

Now, this should remind readers of the current situation in Ukraine with your own country's criminal aggression...

Agreements to defend Ukraine thrown aside by the West to appease a ruthless dictator (Putin).

As myself and other's here have eluded to; Churchill's prophetic admonition is as apt now as it was then except we can include NATO and the EU as well...

Then Member of Parliament for Epping, Winston Churchill said: "Britain and France had to choose between war and dishonour. They chose dishonour. They will have war".

Brass


 

[Belvis]

As for the Poles, do you have any idea how much those people hate the Russians?  There is a sub group that still wishes for the old communist days, but that subset is dying away.  What is left is pure hatred.

Probably the Poles you were communicating want you to believe they hate Russians.
It's like to say Mexicans hate Americans  The real situation as usually is more complicated.
1. Poles have a well-grounded anxiety towards Russian because of our mutual history. They feel the same, may be to less extent, towards Germans.  But it's very far from what you believe and called hatred.
2. Many Poles feel kind of envy to Russians because they remember their glorious days of their Empire, Kingdom of Poland and the Grand Duchy of Lithuania. Later Russia had become the center of power in Slavic world, and Poles regret they missed their very real chance to be such a center. View this as a competition.
3. Any state should worry about its own state interests, first of all. Then it can worry about what other states think about.

[Belvis]

Then Member of Parliament for Epping, Winston Churchill said: "Britain and France had to choose between war and dishonour. They chose dishonour. They will have war".

You can save the face of Westеrn democracies enlisting in Ukrainian  volunteer battalions. You'll get chance to fight Russian aggression. I suppose it would be more honorable act than instigate others to die in the Ukrainian war to appease you or your wife.

[jone]

Probably the Poles you were communicating want you to believe they hate Russians.
It's like to say Mexicans hate Americans  The real situation as usually is more complicated.
1. Poles have a well-grounded anxiety towards Russian because of our mutual history. They feel the same, may be to less extent, towards Germans.  But it's very far from what you believe and called hatred.
2. Many Poles feel kind of envy to Russians because they remember their glorious days of their Empire, Kingdom of Poland and the Grand Duchy of Lithuania. Later Russia had become the center of power in Slavic world, and Poles regret they missed their very real chance to be such a center. View this as a competition.
3. Any state should worry about its own state interests, first of all. Then it can worry about what other states think about.

Their mutual history includes five invasions from Russia.  What you seem to forget is that many of these people actually had family that were killed by Russian aggression.  Most recently, the suspicious circumstances relating to the death of the Polish government in a plane crash.  Not to mention Katyn.

You're gonna have to work overtime tonight, Belvis, to have people think that Poles think anything other than disdain for Russia.

Your disinformation campaign is in full bloom this evening.  I hope they're paying you enough.

Now, here is a direct question for you, Belvis.  Why does your writing consist of different writing styles.  Anyone reading the posts up above will understand what I am saying.  I think there are different people operating this account.  It was amazing that in the last few posts, your English skills have picked up considerably.

[fathertime]

.

Now, here is a direct question for you, Belvis.  Why does your writing consist of different writing styles.  Anyone reading the posts up above will understand what I am saying.  I think there are different people operating this account.  It was amazing that in the last few posts, your English skills have picked up considerably.

Quite an accusation you make to Belvis....no evidence to support it of course (what writing style difference?)....I get the feeling you just don't like what he is saying. Why not just make your case without accusing him of being multiple persons? 


Fathertime!   

[Brasscasing]

You can save the face of Westеrn democracies enlisting in Ukrainian  volunteer battalions. You'll get chance to fight Russian aggression. I suppose it would be more honorable act than instigate others to die in the Ukrainian war to appease you or your wife.

You assume too much. I have no need of enlisting in a Ukrainian Volunteer Bn. If there is war in Eastern Europe I would be called to duty as I'm still a member of my country's supplementary ready reserve.

As both my sons are in uniform and I would most certainly push to be sent into theatre I doubt you could class me as "instigate others" as I'm fully aware of what it is and the possible repercussions to my loved ones of what I advocate.

However, I also understand that this is a situation wherein if Russia's criminal aggression is not stopped now it'll be more difficult to stop later. As with Hitler's Germany 75 years ago, everyday we (the western democracies) dance with peace agreements, resets and false diplomacy to appease your dictator, Putin utilizes that time to prepare and strengthen his military for further criminal aggression.

Edit: Good deflection though. I almost forgot to post that your comment in no way clarifies your original disinformative post regarding pre WW2 European history.

Brass

[Boethius]

Their mutual history includes five invasions from Russia. 

Historically, Poland invaded Russia as well.  The Poles weren't choirboys.


ETA - The Bolshevik animosity toward the Poles, by the old school Bolsheviks, is the result of the Poles slaughtering Bolsheviks during the Civil War.  The Poles didn't take POW's. 

[Boethius]

I suppose it would be more honorable act than instigate others to die in the Ukrainian war to appease you or your wife.

Brass isn't married.

[Brasscasing]

Brass isn't married.

My FSB profile documents must need updating. Get on that will you, Belvis?...

Brass

[jone]

Historically, Poland invaded Russia as well.  The Poles weren't choirboys.


ETA - The Bolshevik animosity toward the Poles, by the old school Bolsheviks, is the result of the Poles slaughtering Bolsheviks during the Civil War.  The Poles didn't take POW's.

Yup. Early 1600s.  And, in reality, one time.  Recent history is all one sided.

[Boethius]

That's not entirely accurate.  Most of the Polish-Russian battles were played out in Ukraine.

[mendeleyev]

Because you don't know the history of WWII I feel an obligation to educate you. Then you'll understand what Ambassador meant, and what Poles know better than you.

A lot of windy jibberish to deflect the real issue. Despite the posting of several Wiki paragraphs, please remind me why Poles should be comfortable with the secret pact between two equally Great and Evil Satans (Stalin and Hitler)?


As to Jone only taking with the wrong Poles, perhaps the problem isn't with Jone, but with you. Despite the nonsensical doublespeak about the "friendship of nations" (I offer the fountain at VDNKh as exhibit A), Jone could offer you a million dollars for ever Pole you found who loves Russia, but at the end of the day you would owe him money.

Belvis, someday you should make a pilgrimage to some of the bloodiest execution and burial places for Poles inside Russia. You could start in Smolensk (Katyn), then on to миедное (Miednoe), and from there to Осташков (Ostashkov). Thousands, yes thousands, of poles (from officers to doctors to businessmen to university professors) were shuttled by train to be executed in Russia. You could even take a tour bus from Poland and join some friendly Poles on the journey. I'd suggest that you identify yourself as a brother Russian, you know, for friendship sake and all.

Of course, we must be fair. So, after that tour (if you survive the encounter with those ultra friendly Poles) you should book a tour for Russians to view the burial places of thousands of Russians who were herded onto boxcars and shipped to Poland for execution. "But yes, of course," Чебурашка, ...such a tour doesn't exist!

Why might that be, Belvis?