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Author Topic: My view of the war  (Read 240531 times)

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Offline AkMike

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My view of the war
« Reply #850 on: October 20, 2014, 01:53:17 PM »
If no Russians are in  SE Ukraine ... Why are all the convoys of Cargo 200 trucks loaded going into Russia?

 Bringing home tourists?

Offline Muzh

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« Reply #851 on: October 20, 2014, 02:00:43 PM »
Your kind tried already.


Your kind?


What exactly is "your kind"?
To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason, and whose philosophy consists in holding humanity in contempt, is like administering medicine to the dead. Thomas Paine - The American Crisis 1776-1783

Offline AkMike

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« Reply #852 on: October 20, 2014, 04:09:27 PM »

one of them being that there are quite a few people in Ukraine that do support the rebels

 You didn't bother to look at this thread did you?

http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=18211.0

Offline fathertime

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« Reply #853 on: October 20, 2014, 04:40:57 PM »
You didn't bother to look at this thread did you?

http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=18211.0


Hello AKmike, I did look at that thread, but you might remember you made this statement:
Make your own analysis... http://www.iri.org/sites/default/files/2014%20October%2014%20Survey%20of%20Residents%20of%20Ukraine%2C%20September%2012-25%2C%202014.pdf


I saw the survey and was curious who conducted it.  I saw that it was IRI, an AMERICAN organization.  I read more about IRI, and based on that, I took their survey with a grain of salt.  In addition even by their survey there seems to be quite a few people that do support the position the rebels have taken.

[size=78%]http://www.iri.org/learn-more-about-iri-0[/size]

Fathertime!   

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Offline AkMike

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« Reply #854 on: October 20, 2014, 05:23:28 PM »
Other polls over the years still show the majority want a united Ukraine including the SE area and Krym.

Offline fathertime

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« Reply #855 on: October 20, 2014, 08:07:28 PM »
Other polls over the years still show the majority want a united Ukraine including the SE area and Krym.


I'd wager that is true a true statement....still there is a minority consisting of a lot of people that don't.


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Offline AkMike

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« Reply #856 on: October 21, 2014, 12:57:53 AM »
 'Alot' doesn't make a majority especially during a real vote.

Offline fathertime

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« Reply #857 on: October 21, 2014, 07:06:00 AM »
'Alot' doesn't make a majority especially during a real vote.


I agree with that.


Fathertime! 
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Offline AC

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« Reply #858 on: October 21, 2014, 10:08:09 AM »
Prime Minister David Cameron of the UK met Vladimir Putin in Italy and told him to denounce illegal elections and a "frozen conflict":


excerpt from article
"David Cameron has challenged Vladimir Putin to denounce illegal elections in Ukraine to stop the crisis becoming a "frozen conflict".
The Russian President refused to commit to condemn a set of illegal elections Russian separatists in the country plan to run next month ahead of the official Ukranian elections in early December.
The British Prime Minister met Mr Putin and Petro Poroshenko, the Ukrainian President, at a breakfast meeting with other European leaders.
Mr Cameron welcomed the talks as "positive" but warned Moscow that sanctions will not be eased unless it takes more decisive action to end the conflict.
During the discussions, Mr Cameron pushed the Russian president to show he was really committed to avoiding a "frozen conflict" by denouncing a set of elections planned by Russian separatists in Ukraine.
Instead, he said, Mr Putin should clearly back the Ukrainian Government elections to be held later this month and in early December. However Mr Putin refused to condemn them."



http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/ukraine/11169311/Denounce-illegal-Ukrainian-elections-and-avoid-frozen-conflict-David-Cameron-tells-Vladimir-Putin.html
« Last Edit: October 21, 2014, 10:19:17 AM by AC »

Offline AC

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« Reply #859 on: October 21, 2014, 10:57:31 AM »

AC, relax. It takes two to tango and I've learned to deal with passive-aggressiveness from my children so it will not get to that.


However, don't you find that "over the years" statement a bit curious? He said he was "invited" here but didn't say by who. You know what I say to that? BULLSHEVIK!!!

That's interesting but seems out of place on this thread.  Back on topic is the discussion of a Russian and Ukrainian gas deal, which is certainly part of this conflict as Putin may use it as a weapon against Ukraine:


http://uk.reuters.com/article/2014/10/21/uk-ukraine-crisis-gas-idUKKCN0IA16V20141021

Offline fathertime

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« Reply #860 on: October 21, 2014, 01:40:17 PM »

AC, relax. It takes two to tango and I've learned to deal with passive-aggressiveness from my children so it will not get to that.


However, don't you find that "over the years" statement a bit curious? He said he was "invited" here but didn't say by who. You know what I say to that? BULLSHEVIK!!!


It is hilarious that you continue to whine! The fact remains that you have pretty much always posted 'passive aggressively' and if you taught your children the same, then isn't that a little of 'you reap what you've sewn'?   


I think you are just angry that points you attempt to make are not just accepted and the 'tactics' you have employed are now used against you.  Too bad!  :D


I'm rather curious when you will actually engage on a substantive point rather than impotently mope about getting picked on.
Fathertime!
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lordtiberius

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« Reply #861 on: October 21, 2014, 07:41:55 PM »
Prime Minister David Cameron of the UK met Vladimir Putin in Italy and told him to denounce illegal elections and a "frozen conflict":


excerpt from article
"David Cameron has challenged Vladimir Putin to denounce illegal elections in Ukraine to stop the crisis becoming a "frozen conflict".
The Russian President refused to commit to condemn a set of illegal elections Russian separatists in the country plan to run next month ahead of the official Ukranian elections in early December.
The British Prime Minister met Mr Putin and Petro Poroshenko, the Ukrainian President, at a breakfast meeting with other European leaders.
Mr Cameron welcomed the talks as "positive" but warned Moscow that sanctions will not be eased unless it takes more decisive action to end the conflict.
During the discussions, Mr Cameron pushed the Russian president to show he was really committed to avoiding a "frozen conflict" by denouncing a set of elections planned by Russian separatists in Ukraine.
Instead, he said, Mr Putin should clearly back the Ukrainian Government elections to be held later this month and in early December. However Mr Putin refused to condemn them."



http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/ukraine/11169311/Denounce-illegal-Ukrainian-elections-and-avoid-frozen-conflict-David-Cameron-tells-Vladimir-Putin.html

You want to talk coward?  David Cameron.  Has a responsibility to defend the Budapest Memorandum and he is AWOL.

What is David Cameron  going to do exactly?  Russian bombers are testing his defenses and he can't stop himself from turning London into Nasha Prigorod.  What a vapid man . . .

Question to the reader, do people frozen conflicts die like they do everyday in Ukraine?  If not, is Ukraine not a frozen conflict but a war?

lordtiberius

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« Reply #862 on: October 21, 2014, 07:46:28 PM »
That's interesting but seems out of place on this thread.  Back on topic is the discussion of a Russian and Ukrainian gas deal, which is certainly part of this conflict as Putin may use it as a weapon against Ukraine:


http://uk.reuters.com/article/2014/10/21/uk-ukraine-crisis-gas-idUKKCN0IA16V20141021

The Poroshenko apparatchiks believe a Russian all out war is on the way.  But why?  They gained territory in the slow motion truce that is not happening despite what they diplomats say.

I hate to say it, but Doll is right, we in the West are corrupt and faithless allies..

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« Reply #863 on: October 22, 2014, 10:14:54 AM »
What's happening in Crimea -- both Joy or Despair, depending on who you are:


excerpt from article
Then, in May, Crimean authorities announced a temporary ban on demonstrations and fenced off central Simferopol in an attempt to prevent the Tatars marking the anniversary of the deportation. The community defied the ban and met on the edge of the city.

In September, the campaign peaked with a raid on the Mejlis, the Tatars’ self-governing council in the Crimean capital, Simferopol. Men in masks with automatic weapons guarded the building as it was searched, officially in connection with protests at the border when Mr Dzhemilev was refused entry. Russia’s foreign ministry said extremist literature, computer hard discs and a firearm had been confiscated, and the council was ejected from the building. Mr Dzhemilev called it a “robbery”.

The raid came two days after the Mejlis had urged Crimeans not to vote in September 14 local elections that were dominated by the slavishly pro-Kremlin United Russia party.

Mr Umerov, a former deputy speaker of Crimea’s parliament who resigned as head of the Bakhchysaray regional administration after Russian grabbed the peninsula, is convinced such measures are designed to bend the Tatars to Moscow’s will.

“First they prevent us from freely marking our genocide, our Holocaust,” he told the Telegraph. “Second, they exlude our leaders. Third, they attack us with these gun-toting search teams and shut down the Mejlis. This is nothing less than a campaign of terror.”


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/ukraine/11143864/Despair-and-euphoria-in-Crimea-six-months-after-Russian-annexation.html
« Last Edit: October 22, 2014, 01:05:47 PM by AC »

Offline AC

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My view of the war
« Reply #864 on: October 22, 2014, 11:41:56 AM »
An interesting map which I found:

Offline Photo Guy

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My view of the war
« Reply #865 on: October 22, 2014, 01:51:07 PM »
Is that map current? Probably not.

lordtiberius

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« Reply #866 on: October 22, 2014, 03:52:50 PM »
Every day some Russian or some Ukrainian dies for politics.  And diplomats are tweeting about awards and the modish solutions to problems that don't exist.  If you support Ukraine, you cannot rationalize the weak and vapid response from us.  jus sayin

Offline Boethius

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« Reply #867 on: October 23, 2014, 08:57:58 AM »
There are no active Russian servicemen in Ukraine – or so the Kremlin has been insisting for months.

Yet a recent encounter in the only functioning restaurant in war-torn Lugansk belied that claim. As the sounds of Celine Dion wafted from the sound system of the Weeping Willow café on a recent evening, half a dozen Russian soldiers sat down to a vodka-soaked dinner.

The men, dressed in the latest Russian army uniform, fanned out across two tables. As the 1994 ballad “Love Is All Around” came on the stereo, one comrade turned to another and asked if he had, by chance, seen the film.Soon they invited two western journalists to join their table. One member of the group said he and the others had been

in Lugansk for the past month, meaning that they arrived after the ceasefire the rebels signed with Kiev on September 5.

The men’s goal was “training the local population”, said the soldier, a native of Russia’s Voronezh region named Maxim. Asked if he and the others had come as volunteers, he replied sarcastically: “Sure, we’re volunteers. Nobody sent us here.” He continued on a more serious note.

“They gave us an order: who wants to go volunteer? And we put our hands up like this,” he said, mocking someone being forced to put their hand up.

The involvement of Russian soldiers in eastern Ukraine has been one of the most incendiary elements of a conflict that has so far killed more than 3,700 people.
Lugansk locator map

Western governments believe Russian troops and heavy weaponry were instrumental in reversing a campaign by Ukrainian troops to pacify two eastern provinces over-run by pro-Moscow separatists.

The provinces, Lugansk and Donetsk, are now under rebel control as a result of that tenuous ceasefire.

Moscow insists that any Russian citizens fighting on the side of the separatists are “volunteers” and that any soldiers who have mysteriously ended up on Ukrainian territory had gone there on their holidays, while taking a sabbatical from their military service.

But evidence on the ground has suggested otherwise. In early September Nato alleged that 3,000 active Russian soldiers were on the ground in east Ukraine, while Kiev put the figure at as high as 10,000.

In September, a commission on military affairs on Russia’s presidential human rights council alleged that 100 soldiers from the 18th Motorised Rifle Brigade of military unit 27777 had died in action in east Ukraine, according to a report by Reuters.

In August, Kiev posted video interviews of 10 men it had captured in east Ukraine who admitted to being Russian paratroopers, while attention has also focused on the paratroopers from Russia’s Pskov Airborne Division – at least two of whom died on August 20, just a day before the Ukrainian military claimed it had captured two armoured vehicles from the Pskov division.Fighters from Russia’s restive Chechnya and North Ossetia regions have been playing a visible role on the ground in Donetsk since May, when they first began talking to reporters, including from the Financial Times. While the majority of the men manning the Donetsk and Lugansk rebel-controlled checkpoints are local – as are many of the men taking part in the fighting – there is ample evidence that mercenaries are also present on the ground. Some of them appeared to have been staying at the $100-a-night Donetsk Ramada, one of the few Donetsk hotels that has stayed open throughout the fighting.
The Weeping Willow in Lugansk

At the Weeping Willow, whose interior is a homage to the 1968 Soviet caper film The Diamond Arm , with glass display cases featuring fake props from the movie and stills from the film adorning the walls – four of Maxim’s companions soon joined the discussion: Slava, a man the others referred to as their officer and who was wearing a uniform with official Russian armed forces and Russian flag insignia; Salovat, whom the other men referred to as “the Tatar” because of his ethnicity; Kirill, a lanky twenty-something with dark hair and a scar across his cheek; and a fourth whose ethnicity suggested he was from Russia’s Caucasus.

The last – and most sober – member of the group, a man named Stanislav, headed for the exit after learning that he was in the company of reporters.

The men looked quite different to the local rebel forces. The insurgents who have been fighting Ukraine’s army tend to sport a motley collection of green camouflage outfits, often acquired from hunting and fishing shops or thrift stores. They also tend to carry pistols and Kalashnikovs with them wherever they go, even inside public buildings. The six men at the Weeping Willow were quite different. All were dressed identically in the latest official Russian armed forces green camouflage uniform, a design that was unveiled only in December 2012. None of them was armed.

They said that they had been coming to the café since they arrived a month earlier. Then Lugansk, which has borne the brunt of the summer fighting, was still without electricity, as it had been for most of the summer, and the men were forced to sip their beers in the dark.

They said they had been conducting their training every day, including weekends, though they did not elaborate on what sort of training they were engaged in.

While the fighting has left the city centre, Lugansk remains under a strict 8pm curfew. Shortly before the appointed hour, the men settled their bill and stumbled out the door, Slava the officer carrying a bottle of the Weeping Willow’s own vodka brand under his arm.

“A million men will die for your eyes!” Salovat shouted to a reporter. And with that the party was over.

An armed pro-Russian separatist stands guard at a railway station in Donetsk...An armed pro-Russian separatist stands guard at a railway station in Donetsk July 21, 2014. REUTERS/Konstantin Cherginsky (UKRAINE - Tags: POLITICS CIVIL UNREST TRANSPORT)[

While there is growing evidence that Russian soldiers and mercenaries are taking part in the fighting in eastern Ukraine, many of the Russian citizens in the region are exactly what Moscow claims they are: volunteers.

In a coffee shop in Donetsk, Oleg and Sergei, two brothers from Siberia, explained that they had decided to join the fight in Lugansk after witnessing a horrific confrontation between pro-Russia supporters and ultra nationalist football fans in Odessa. The clash led to the deaths of dozens of pro-Russian demonstrators in a fire.

Oleg, a 41 year-old economist for a well-known multinational in one of Siberia’s biggest cities, said he sent his application to join the rebels in June through an internet organisation that helps place Russian volunteers. He requested to fight under the leadership of Alexei Mozgovoi, the much-feared commander of Lugansk’s Ghost battalion.

Days before his departure in early August, his 28-year-old brother Sergei, a builder, announced that he wanted to join him.

“People say we’re in a foreign country but we’re not. This is our land,” Oleg said. “This war isn’t just material, it’s spiritual. It’s a fight against the values of the western world.”

He rattled off a list of American and European wrongdoings, mostly centred around the west’s growing acceptance of same-sex marriage and advocacy for gay rights. “We believe in love – love between a man and a woman,” he said.

“America is a great place. You have great Harleys. You can bear arms,” he said. “But it’s only great for those who want to live inside it. America shouldn’t be trying to build democracy in other places.”

The brothers admitted that the past two months had not been easy. “It’s not an anti-terror operation. It’s a genocide,” Sergei said, referring to Kiev’s military offensive in the east. He claimed that his battalion had come across multiple rebel corpses “with necks cut off, heads cut off”, accusing the pro-Ukrainian battalions of desecrating their victims. It is an allegation Kiev has also levelled at the separatists.

The men said heavy fighting had not abated since a September 5 ceasefire, which they claimed existed only on paper. Neither said they had any plans to return home. Sergei said: “We know that war doesn’t last one or two months.”


http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/2/76bac354-59c2-11e4-9787-00144feab7de.html#axzz3Gz1lXhVa
« Last Edit: October 23, 2014, 09:06:15 AM by Boethius »
After the fall of communism, the biggest mistake Boris Yeltsin's regime made was not to disband the KGB altogether. Instead it changed its name to the FSB and, to many observers, morphed into a gangster organisation, eventually headed by master criminal Vladimir Putin. - Gerard Batten

Offline Boethius

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My view of the war
« Reply #868 on: October 23, 2014, 09:28:27 AM »
Quote
Eastern Ukrainian separatists are receiving dozens of tanks and Russian-trained fighters, one of the rebel leaders has said, suggesting that Moscow continues to defy international pressure to end its backing for the four-month conflict.

Alexander Zakharchenko, who took over a week ago as prime minister of the self-declared Donetsk People’s Republic, told members of his government that rebel forces had reopened a corridor to the Russian Federation allowing fresh inflows of arms and fighters.

“At present, moving along the path of this corridor . . . there are 150 items of combat hardware, 30 of which are tanks,” a YouTube video released on Saturday showed him as saying. Also en route were “1,200 individuals who underwent four months of training in the Russian Federation,” he said.Though the revelation could not be independently confirmed, it comes one day after Kiev claimed to have used artillery to destroy Russian combat vehicles illegally entering its territory.

Denied by Russia, the incident allegedly occurred at a border crossing near the other rebel-held provincial capital, Lugansk, close to where a Russian convoy of nearly 270 trucks carrying humanitarian aid was parked awaiting Ukrainian customs clearance.

In Kamensk-Shakhtinsky, where more than 360 Russian aid trucks have been parked since Thursday, the Red Cross and Ukrainian and Russian representatives continued their negotiations over how the Russian aid convoy would be allowed into Ukrainian territory.

Six representatives for OMON, a Russian special police force, stood guard over the convoy camp on Saturday, refusing to let press access the site.News organisations including the Financial Times have spotted numerous armed military vehicles on the main highway leading to the Russian town of Donetsk which borders Ukraine. Some of the vehicles have borne the red initials “MS” – the Russian symbol for peacekeeping forces.

On Saturday, there appeared to be fewer armoured personnel carriers and military vehicles driving on the roads than in previous days.Mr Zakharchenko’s confirmation that Russia continues to give military backing to his separatist movement upholds Kiev’s claim that its northern neighbour – which annexed Crimea earlier this year – is waging a “hybrid war” by orchestrating the separatist rebellion then providing arms and rebels for its fighting force.

Backing claims by their government, Ukrainian soldiers have in past weeks claimed to be routinely engaging undercover Russian soldiers alongside the rebels, while also being shelled from Russian territory.In Donetsk this week, a rebel spokesman admitted Russians accounted for a significant part of rebel ranks. He said they were “fighting for Russia” against the west in a “civilisation war.

”The prospect of fresh inflows of arms and fighters could make things more difficult for Ukraine’s advancing army, which claimed in past weeks to have made significant gains towards encircling the militant strongholds of Donetsk and Lugansk.Pro-Moscow separatists in eastern Ukraine have escalated the political turmoil that threatens to tear the country apart.

Mr Zakharchenko, a native of Donetsk region, rose to prominence last week after replacing Muscovite Alexander Borodai, who has close ties to Kremlin insiders. His rise to power preceded this week’s unexpected removal of former Russian intelligence officer Igor Girkin, better known as Strelkov or Shooter in Russian, as the group’s military commander.

The leadership shake-up appears to be a bid to conceal links to Russian involvement. But mounting evidence that Moscow continues to funnel arms and fighters to the separatist uprising is nonetheless likely to raise further international alarm, deepening the Kremlin’s stand-off with the west.The US and EU have repeatedly warned Moscow that it faces additional economic sanctions should it fail to take measures to calm tensions in the most serious east-west stand-off since the cold war.



http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/10867312-2560-11e4-af2c-00144feabdc0.html#axzz3Gz1lXhVa

« Last Edit: October 23, 2014, 09:30:09 AM by Boethius »
After the fall of communism, the biggest mistake Boris Yeltsin's regime made was not to disband the KGB altogether. Instead it changed its name to the FSB and, to many observers, morphed into a gangster organisation, eventually headed by master criminal Vladimir Putin. - Gerard Batten

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« Reply #869 on: October 23, 2014, 11:44:05 AM »
An article by George Soros coming out in November; Wake Up Europe!


http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/2014/nov/20/wake-up-europe/?insrc=hpss

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« Reply #870 on: October 23, 2014, 05:05:33 PM »
And yet more evidence that the Russians are directly involved in the fighting.

http://nz.news.yahoo.com/a/-/world/25335513/exclusive-charred-tanks-in-ukraine-point-to-russian-involvement/

Extracts from this article:

Quote from: Reuters
Reuters showed photographs of the two badly damaged tanks, one of which had lost its turret, to four independent military experts, who said they were of a type used exclusively by the Russian army.

At least one, they agreed, was a T-72BM - a Russian-made modification of a well known Soviet tank. This version of the tank, they said, is not known to have been exported.

"It is operated by the Russian Army in large numbers, but crucially it is not known to have been exported or operated outside of Russia," Joseph Dempsey, a military analyst for the London-based International Institute for Strategic Studies, wrote in late August when a tank like that was discovered on grainy footage of rebel convoy.

"The presence of this variant in Ukraine therefore strongly supports the contention that Russia is supplying arms to separatist forces," Dempsey said.

Such remarks clearly undermine Russian denials of direct involvement in the conflict in Ukraine...

Quote from: Reuters
Alexei Koshelenko, who said he was captured on Aug. 24-25 near the town of Ilovaysk, said: "We were hit by (multiple rocket launcher) Grads and after that the troops just swept us away. We were completely defeated within 20 minutes. Many of us were killed, others are missing."

"They were Russians," he said after being released with other prisoners of war. Referring to a city 300 km (200 miles) northeast of Moscow, he said: "They said they were an airborne assault battalion from Kostroma."

Quote from: Reuters
"We saw an armoured convoy coming down here," she said. "They had white circles on the armour and white flags but whose troops they were we don’t know."

Neither the rebels nor the Ukrainian forces have white circles as their permanent recognised emblem. But another local resident...said she had been told the meaning of the white circles in conversations with passing soldiers who identified themselves as Russian.

"One of them told me: white circles mean this is Russians," she said. "He came to the last house for some water to drink and I asked how you can tell the difference between a Ukrainian or Russian. He said that if it's us, there are white circles on the tanks."

The two damaged tanks were too badly burnt to have any recognisable insignia but a destroyed Soviet-made BMP-2 armoured personnel carrier a few hundred metres away also bore a white circle on its broken turret.

Residents of areas on the Ukrainian side of the border with Russia also reported seeing armoured convoys marked by white circles on Aug. 26.

Two days later Reuters spotted an armoured convoy with the same insignia on the Russian side of the border.

Quote from: Reuters
Anti-tank missiles fired near where the tanks were destroyed also appear to have originated in Russia because various used parts of Kornet anti-tank guided missiles were left there.

Reuters showed three military experts photographs of the missile parts and two of them said Ukraine does not have anti-tank guided missiles of this type.

Quote from: Reuters
Trenches near the tanks also provided what appeared to be more evidence of foreign troops - numerous empty boxes of ready-to-eat meals that are used by the Russian army. Each box contains meals for one day.

A Reuters reporter counted 124 packages of field rations with "not for sale" labels and notes that they were produced for the Russian Defence Ministry.

A spokeswoman for Voentorg, the company in Russia that produces such meals for the Russian Defence Ministry, confirmed they cannot be sold.

Offline AC

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« Reply #871 on: October 23, 2014, 07:37:07 PM »
Is Obama cutting a back-room deal which throws Ukraine to the wolves?  Few of us Americans would be surprised by his cowardice if this is what he is doing:


excerpt from article
"Putin may then revert to the smaller victory that would still be within his reach: he could open by force a land route from Russia to Crimea and Transnistria before winter. Alternatively, he could simply sit back and await the economic and financial collapse of Ukraine. I suspect that he may be holding out the prospect of a grand bargain in which Russia would help the United States against ISIS—for instance by not supplying to Syria the S300 missiles it has promised, thus in effect preserving US air domination—and Russia would be allowed to have its way in the “near abroad,” as many of the nations adjoining Russia are called. What is worse, President Obama may accept such a deal.

That would be a tragic mistake, with far-reaching geopolitical consequences. Without underestimating the threat from ISIS, I would argue that preserving the independence of Ukraine should take precedence; without it, even the alliance against ISIS would fall apart. The collapse of Ukraine would be a tremendous loss for NATO, the European Union, and the United States. A victorious Russia would become much more influential within the EU and pose a potent threat to the Baltic states with their large ethnic Russian populations. Instead of supporting Ukraine, NATO would have to defend itself on its own soil. This would expose both the EU and the US to the danger they have been so eager to avoid: a direct military confrontation with Russia. The European Union would become even more divided and ungovernable. Why should the US and other NATO nations allow this to happen?"


http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/2014/nov/20/wake-up-europe/?insrc=hpss
« Last Edit: October 23, 2014, 07:40:13 PM by AC »

Offline fathertime

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« Reply #872 on: October 24, 2014, 01:50:58 PM »
I seem to recall a few days ago people here were gleefully clapping that Putin/Russia was going to fold up and shrink away.  Based on Putin's comments today, that is far from accurate.  http://www.latimes.com/world/europe/la-fg-russia-putin-us-20141024-story.html
Among his comments he has stated that the USA has distorted the world based on their interests...and that USA instigated the coup in Ukraine. 


In another development, the Asian infrastructure bank was launched today.  Based on the link it sounds like Kerry twisted the arms of Australia and possibly a couple other nations NOT to join (like we should be telling other nations what to do)..nevertheless 21 nations did join, China and India being the largest.  Our attempts at undermining this group seem to validate some of Putin's earlier statements about the US distorting things to suit it's own interests.   We shall see if this lessens the influence/profits of western powers in the region.  [size=78%]http://finance.yahoo.com/news/three-major-nations-absent-china-040036987.html[/size]


Fathertime!   
« Last Edit: October 24, 2014, 02:17:31 PM by fathertime »
I just happened to be browsing about the internet....

lordtiberius

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« Reply #873 on: October 24, 2014, 04:08:28 PM »
The only effective thing the US has done is bring done the price of oil.

Offline AkMike

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« Reply #874 on: October 24, 2014, 09:02:04 PM »
I seem to recall a few days ago people here were gleefully clapping that Putin/Russia was going to fold up and shrink away.  Based on Putin's comments today, that is far from accurate.  http://www.latimes.com/world/europe/la-fg-russia-putin-us-20141024-story.html

 Based on the 100% honest forthright  :wallbash: interviews that he had before (lied at ) at before I wasted 2 minutes reading more of his drivel.

 

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