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Author Topic: Poroshenko claims Ukraine is now being offered weapons by NATO.  (Read 158666 times)

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Offline AkMike

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Re: Poroshenko claims Ukraine is now being offered weapons by NATO.
« Reply #300 on: October 23, 2014, 08:44:02 PM »
It's too bad that Yanku and his henchmen got away with most of the funds so UA can't fund the war as it should be to fight the Russian terrorists.

Offline Anotherkiwi

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Re: Poroshenko claims Ukraine is now being offered weapons by NATO.
« Reply #301 on: October 24, 2014, 03:41:57 AM »
I'll assume it's Novoazovsk your referring to as the "most decisive battle of the war in Ukraine" as this is the only military operation the Russians were involved in up to that point in the war that could be construed as a success.

No, I'm not.  I'm referring to this:

...
Alexei Koshelenko, who said he was captured on Aug. 24-25 near the town of Ilovaysk, said: "We were hit by (multiple rocket launcher) Grads and after that the troops just swept us away. We were completely defeated within 20 minutes. Many of us were killed, others are missing."

"They were Russians," he said after being released with other prisoners of war. Referring to a city 300 km (200 miles) northeast of Moscow, he said: "They said they were an airborne assault battalion from Kostroma."

You claim it was Poroshenko who was forced to beg for a cease fire. Again, assuming your talking about the cease fire (such as it is) currently in place. It was Putin who drafted and approached Poroshenko with a proposal not the other way around.

Brass
BRASS,
i would agree with you ,
 
 ukraines fighting spirit has shown true grit which has surprised some people i think  ;)

SX

I have no doubts about the fighting spirit of the Ukrainian people.  The point I was trying to make (obviously badly) was that, without this particular Russian incursion, a call for a ceasefire would not have been needed because, at that stage, the rebels and their "volunteer" supporters were very much on the back foot as the Ukrainian army advanced.  Another couple of weeks at that rate of progress, and I think that the two so-called Republics would have become just another footnote in the history of Ukraine.

Putin would not have dared to offer any sort of peace proposal had the latter occurred, let alone be able to offer one with such (well-hidden) glee.

lordtiberius

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Re: Poroshenko claims Ukraine is now being offered weapons by NATO.
« Reply #302 on: October 24, 2014, 04:34:11 AM »
I might be wrong but I think Poroshenko is doing a good job.

Offline AC

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Re: Poroshenko claims Ukraine is now being offered weapons by NATO.
« Reply #303 on: October 24, 2014, 09:02:52 AM »
Gary Kasparov calls Putin the most dangerous man in the World; says that ISIS is a diversion and questions why the West would give arms to Syrian rebels but not Ukrainians:

http://news.yahoo.com/bianna-golodryga-interviews-garry-kasparov-093317385.html?tab=katiec2014

Offline Brasscasing

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Re: Poroshenko claims Ukraine is now being offered weapons by NATO.
« Reply #304 on: October 24, 2014, 09:07:50 AM »
No, I'm not.  I'm referring to this:

Quote
...
Alexei Koshelenko, who said he was captured on Aug. 24-25 near the town of Ilovaysk, said: "We were hit by (multiple rocket launcher) Grads and after that the troops just swept us away. We were completely defeated within 20 minutes. Many of us were killed, others are missing."

"They were Russians," he said after being released with other prisoners of war. Referring to a city 300 km (200 miles) northeast of Moscow, he said: "They said they were an airborne assault battalion from Kostroma."

Ok, got you. Thanks for the clarification.

At a glance it appears Ukrainian forces were overwhelmed and broken up by Russian regulars. It looks as though after a running battle for the town with neither side taking the upper hand the Russians shelled the town (mortars, artillery and rockets) then entered the town with the resulting Ukrainian forces killed or captured.

So, is this a military defeat? Yes. It does not change my assessment of the Russian conscript soldier though.

It appears this town (and soldiers) were on the wrong end of a sustained rocket, mortar, arty barrage before the Russians entered the town. I'd suggest that had a lot to do with the ease in which the Russians secured the town (your attached narrative).

Having said that the Russians do have specialist units and if the Ukrainians had the unfortunate luck of running into one of these battalions it might well have been a rout.

I have no doubts about the fighting spirit of the Ukrainian people.  The point I was trying to make (obviously badly) was that, without this particular Russian incursion, a call for a ceasefire would not have been needed because, at that stage, the rebels and their "volunteer" supporters were very much on the back foot as the Ukrainian army advanced.  Another couple of weeks at that rate of progress, and I think that the two so-called Republics would have become just another footnote in the history of Ukraine.

Putin would not have dared to offer any sort of peace proposal had the latter occurred, let alone be able to offer one with such (well-hidden) glee.

You may be right. I believe the peace proposal was timed to coincide with the NATO conference in an effort to mitigate any resolutions that might be put forward or adopted.

Brass
« Last Edit: October 24, 2014, 09:21:10 AM by Brasscasing »
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Offline AC

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Re: Poroshenko claims Ukraine is now being offered weapons by NATO.
« Reply #305 on: October 24, 2014, 10:38:54 AM »
I don't know if these troops qualify for your definition of specialist units, however Russian airborne assault soldiers from Ivanovo and Kostroma were in Ukraine.  It's not like Putin is going to send untested troops to battle in Ukraine -- pehaps he is sending these type of combat proven troops to see how they do; and perhaps later he will send the even "better" Speznats to do his dirty work.  (pardon if somebody already posted information about this):


excerpt
Paratroopers from Kostroma

“They didn’t get lost, they just used 2015 maps,” Lyudmila Khokhlova, chairman of the Kostroma Council of soldier’s mothers, recalls a joke from the web on the paratroopers of the 331 Guards Airborne Regiment based in Kostroma. On August 25 the Security Service of Ukraine [SBU] published videos of interrogations of paratroopers from Kostroma detained the day before near Dzerkalne, Amvrosiyivka district, Donetsk region. This spot is 36 kilometers to the West of the Russian border and 10 kilometers to the south of Mnogopillya where the Ulyanovsk paratroopers were captured.

In the video nine grim men in camo with no insignia take turns to tell how they ended up in the warzone. The video was intended to back Kyiv’s claims of the participation of Russian regulars in the conflict. The soldiers said they’d arrived to Rostov region for battalion tactocan maneuvers, where they’d set up camp near Matveev Kurgan township. Some time later the paratroopers were ordered to accompany a vehicle convoy. They crossed the border on an unmarked stretch and the same day were detained by Ukrainian soldiers.

Russia claims the paratroopers got lost during maneuvers and accidentally entered Ukraine. On August 31 – after talks of the Presidents in Ukraine and Russia in Minsk – the soldiers were transferred to Russia.

The nine detainees, upon spending some time in Rostov and them in the military hospital named after Burdenko in Moscow, have already returned to Kostroma. One, seriously wounded, stays at a burn treatment center in St. Petersburg [The SBU video did not feature the wounded one], relatives of former captives say. Now the released soldiers are on vacation, they may resume their contract service if they want to do so, the 98th Division’s Deputy Commander for Morale & Welfare colonel Alexander Khotulev told RBC. Khotulev refused to comment whether his unit had suffered losses. However, relatives of the paratroopers say it was Khotulev who on August 26 told the families there were two dead and ten wounded in the division.


The 98th Guards Airborne Division is based in Ivanovo and Kostroma regions. The 331 Kostroma regiment, part of the division, took part in settlmenet of ethnic conflicts in Transcaucasia, Transdniestria, Yugoslavia, North Ossetia. In 2008 the Kostroma paratroopers took part in the Georgian-Ossetian conflict.

The first known killed contract soldier from this unit is Sergey Seleznev, buried on September 2 in Vladimir. A representative of the military commissariat told a local paper Pro Gorod that the soldier died during maneuvers in Rostov region. The circumstances of the death of another paratrooper, Andrei Pilipchuk from Kostroma region, remained unknown. Andrei’s friends and relatives told about his death on social neywork pages, but later deleted all the information. Kirill Rubankov, editor of Glavniy Portal Kostromy, claims that Pilipchuk’s relative confirmed the paratrooper’s burial in private. She refused to talk with RBC."



http://euromaidanpress.com/2014/10/03/russian-soldiers-in-ukraine-an-investigation/
« Last Edit: October 24, 2014, 11:43:28 AM by AC »

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Re: Poroshenko claims Ukraine is now being offered weapons by NATO.
« Reply #306 on: October 24, 2014, 10:46:37 AM »
This is a link to the story about the battle on August 24th and 25th which Anotherkiwi was referring to:


"Alexei Koshelenko said he was captured during heavy fighting on Aug. 24-25 near the town of Ilovaysk, east of the separatist stronghold of Donetsk.He said his 93rd mechanised brigade was encircled and quickly overrun in the battle, in which forces loyal to the Kiev ..."

http://www.in.com/news/current-affairs/ukrainians-say-russian-troops-captured-them-in-east-ukraine-52957529-in-1.html

« Last Edit: October 24, 2014, 11:44:37 AM by AC »

Offline Brasscasing

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Re: Poroshenko claims Ukraine is now being offered weapons by NATO.
« Reply #307 on: October 24, 2014, 12:37:29 PM »
I don't know if these troops qualify for your definition of specialist units, however Russian airborne assault soldiers from Ivanovo and Kostroma were in Ukraine.  It's not like Putin is going to send untested troops to battle in Ukraine -- pehaps he is sending these type of combat proven troops to see how they do; and perhaps later he will send the even "better" Speznats to do his dirty work.  (pardon if somebody already posted information about this):


excerpt
Paratroopers from Kostroma

“They didn’t get lost, they just used 2015 maps,” Lyudmila Khokhlova, chairman of the Kostroma Council of soldier’s mothers, recalls a joke from the web on the paratroopers of the 331 Guards Airborne Regiment based in Kostroma. On August 25 the Security Service of Ukraine [SBU] published videos of interrogations of paratroopers from Kostroma detained the day before near Dzerkalne, Amvrosiyivka district, Donetsk region. This spot is 36 kilometers to the West of the Russian border and 10 kilometers to the south of Mnogopillya where the Ulyanovsk paratroopers were captured.

In the video nine grim men in camo with no insignia take turns to tell how they ended up in the warzone. The video was intended to back Kyiv’s claims of the participation of Russian regulars in the conflict. The soldiers said they’d arrived to Rostov region for battalion tactocan maneuvers, where they’d set up camp near Matveev Kurgan township. Some time later the paratroopers were ordered to accompany a vehicle convoy. They crossed the border on an unmarked stretch and the same day were detained by Ukrainian soldiers.

Russia claims the paratroopers got lost during maneuvers and accidentally entered Ukraine. On August 31 – after talks of the Presidents in Ukraine and Russia in Minsk – the soldiers were transferred to Russia.

The nine detainees, upon spending some time in Rostov and them in the military hospital named after Burdenko in Moscow, have already returned to Kostroma. One, seriously wounded, stays at a burn treatment center in St. Petersburg [The SBU video did not feature the wounded one], relatives of former captives say. Now the released soldiers are on vacation, they may resume their contract service if they want to do so, the 98th Division’s Deputy Commander for Morale & Welfare colonel Alexander Khotulev told RBC. Khotulev refused to comment whether his unit had suffered losses. However, relatives of the paratroopers say it was Khotulev who on August 26 told the families there were two dead and ten wounded in the division.


The 98th Guards Airborne Division is based in Ivanovo and Kostroma regions. The 331 Kostroma regiment, part of the division, took part in settlmenet of ethnic conflicts in Transcaucasia, Transdniestria, Yugoslavia, North Ossetia. In 2008 the Kostroma paratroopers took part in the Georgian-Ossetian conflict.

The first known killed contract soldier from this unit is Sergey Seleznev, buried on September 2 in Vladimir. A representative of the military commissariat told a local paper Pro Gorod that the soldier died during maneuvers in Rostov region. The circumstances of the death of another paratrooper, Andrei Pilipchuk from Kostroma region, remained unknown. Andrei’s friends and relatives told about his death on social neywork pages, but later deleted all the information. Kirill Rubankov, editor of Glavniy Portal Kostromy, claims that Pilipchuk’s relative confirmed the paratrooper’s burial in private. She refused to talk with RBC."



http://euromaidanpress.com/2014/10/03/russian-soldiers-in-ukraine-an-investigation/

Russian contract soldiers are roughly the equivalent of state hired NCO's. Only one step above conscript in the Russian military hierarchy. If the paratroopers are contract soldiers it's unlikely these guys are specialists.

Didn't we have pics of these guys posted here at one time? They weren't very well disciplined if memory serves, basically yakking up a storm.

Anyways, more on the contract soldiers here (doesn't seem to have been contaminated by the Russian wiki editors)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_Ground_Forces#Contract_soldiers

Go to para 3.1.

Brass
« Last Edit: October 24, 2014, 12:41:49 PM by Brasscasing »
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lordtiberius

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Re: Poroshenko claims Ukraine is now being offered weapons by NATO.
« Reply #308 on: October 24, 2014, 04:03:54 PM »
 :clapping:


Good comments.

Offline sleepycat

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Re: Poroshenko claims Ukraine is now being offered weapons by NATO.
« Reply #309 on: October 24, 2014, 05:40:51 PM »

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_Ground_Forces#Contract_soldiers

Go to para 3.1.

"Two of every seven conscripts will become addicted to drugs and alcohol while serving their terms, and a further one in twenty will suffer homosexual rape, according to 2005 reports."

Isn't the whole gay thing banned in Russia?

Offline AC

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Re: Poroshenko claims Ukraine is now being offered weapons by NATO.
« Reply #310 on: October 24, 2014, 05:52:47 PM »
This is an excerpt from the link Brasscasing posted above:


"Crime and corruption in the ground forces

The new Russian Ground Forces inherited an increasing crime problem from their Soviet predecessors. As draft resistance grew in the last years of the Soviet Union, the authorities tried to compensate by enlisting men with criminal records and who spoke little or no Russian. Crime rates soared, with the military procurator in Moscow in September 1990 reporting a 40-percent increase in crime over the previous six months, including a 41-percent rise in serious bodily injuries.[56] Disappearances of weapons rose to rampant levels, especially in Eastern Europe and the Caucasus.[56]

Generals directing the withdrawals from Eastern Europe diverted arms, equipment, and foreign monies intended to build housing in Russia for the withdrawn troops. Several years later, the former commander in Germany, General Matvei Burlakov, and the Defence Minister, Pavel Grachev, had their involvement exposed. They were also accused of ordering the murder of reporter Dmitry Kholodov, who had been investigating the scandals.[56] In December 1996, Defence Minister Igor Rodionov ordered the dismissal of the Commander of the Ground Forces, General Vladimir Semyonov, for activities incompatible with his position — reportedly his wife's business activities.[57]

A 1995 study by the U.S. Foreign Military Studies Office[58] went as far as to say that the Armed Forces were "an institution increasingly defined by the high levels of military criminality and corruption embedded within it at every level." The FMSO noted that crime levels had always grown with social turbulence, such as the trauma Russia was passing through. The author identified four major types among the raft of criminality prevalent within the forces—weapons trafficking and the arms trade; business and commercial ventures; military crime beyond Russia's borders; and contract murder. Weapons disappearances began during the dissolution of the Union and has continued. Within units "rations are sold while soldiers grow hungry ... [while] fuel, spare parts, and equipment can be bought."[55] Meanwhile, voyemkomats take bribes to arrange avoidance of service, or a more comfortable posting.

Beyond the Russian frontier, drugs were smuggled across the Tajik border—supposedly being patrolled by Russian guards—by military aircraft, and a Russian senior officer, General Major Alexander Perelyakin, had been dismissed from his post with the United Nations peacekeeping force in Bosnia-Hercegovina (UNPROFOR), following continued complaints of smuggling, profiteering, and corruption. In terms of contract killings, beyond the Kholodov case, there have been widespread rumours that GRU Spetsnaz personnel have been moonlighting as mafiya hitmen.[59]
end of excerpt


To summarize I don't think that the Russians could fight against a world class experienced Army such as the American Army.  I don't think that they could beat the Ukrainian Army either, if the Ukrainian Army had been given the heavy weapons and other equipment they requested.

That said I would not bet against the Russians if they were fighting on their own soil.  And part of the problem is that many if not most Russians seem to think that Ukrainian lands are theirs. 

The question is, can these type of criminal mercenaries win in the long run against Ukraine?

Clearly the Ukrainians have more spirit to fight for the sovereign territory of their own nation and they could do it if the UK and the USA would honor the moral and material obligations of the Budapest memorandum.
« Last Edit: October 24, 2014, 05:56:47 PM by AC »

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Re: Poroshenko claims Ukraine is now being offered weapons by NATO.
« Reply #311 on: October 24, 2014, 06:00:11 PM »
"Two of every seven conscripts will become addicted to drugs and alcohol while serving their terms, and a further one in twenty will suffer homosexual rape, according to 2005 reports."

Isn't the whole gay thing banned in Russia?


Apparently you're only gay in Russia if you're on the receiving end.   :-X

Offline JayH

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Re: Poroshenko claims Ukraine is now being offered weapons by NATO.
« Reply #312 on: October 24, 2014, 11:50:33 PM »


To summarize I don't think that the Russians could fight against a world class experienced Army such as the American Army.  I don't think that they could beat the Ukrainian Army either, if the Ukrainian Army had been given the heavy weapons and other equipment they requested.

That said I would not bet against the Russians if they were fighting on their own soil.  And part of the problem is that many if not most Russians seem to think that Ukrainian lands are theirs. 

The question is, can these type of criminal mercenaries win in the long run against Ukraine?

Clearly the Ukrainians have more spirit to fight for the sovereign territory of their own nation and they could do it if the UK and the USA would honor the moral and material obligations of the Budapest memorandum.
  With all due respect to American ground troops-- without significant air superiority they would do no better than Ukrainians.America has always used a strategy of overwhelming numbers to attain a victory-- and that has not always been successful.Give the Ukrainians the right equipment and logistical support-- and they will do the job on the ground.Both sides now know Ukraine can "win" this battle-- and that is crucial to morale on both sides.
The morale of the Russian troops sent to Ukraine is low.They are being beaten by a less well-armed force-- and they are shocked.Russia is now short rotating troops in the area to try and prevent to high a degree of a loser attitude prevailing amongst their troops.Russian generals have proved quite inadequate in management--and grossly underestimated  Ukrainian forces.
On the other hand-Ukrainian troops morale is rising-they have developed tactics and strategies to offset the superior equipment of the Russian forces and have gained a lot of confidence.The troops arriving now are better trained-- and are now getting longer time in training with more experienced guys passing on what they have learnt.
I think now that they can beat the Russians-- especially so if upgraded equipment can keep coming-hopefully at a faster rate.If Ukraine can contain the invasion as it now stands--that Will be the basis for a future to push the Russians right out of Ukraine.Poroshenko for played for time-- and once again it was the best compromise.For those calling on overt US involvement-- right now that would only see an unwanted escalation of potentially unmanageable proportions.The softly softly approach now will see Ukraine better organised for the spring -we shall see.There may be another big push of the Russians any day now-- but I tend to think they have the tail between the legs now.
Putin will be having a lot of pressure applied internally now--by the hawks and the doves.The problem he has is that any attempt to escalate may not help and he could still lose. militarily- and that would be certain to finish him-so he is hesitating now.
One last point--if the Russian forces were not using civilians as a shield-they would have been pushed out long ago. While the Russians happily shell anywhere anytime--the Ukrainian forces are constrained significantly  on what and where they can shoot.
SLAVA UKRAYINI  ! HEROYAM SLAVA!!!!
Слава Украине! Слава героям слава!Слава Україні! Слава героям!
 translated as: Glory to Ukraine! Glory to the heroes!!!  is a Ukrainian greeting slogan being used now all over Ukraine to signify support for a free independent Ukraine

Offline calmissile

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Re: Poroshenko claims Ukraine is now being offered weapons by NATO.
« Reply #313 on: October 25, 2014, 12:15:20 AM »
JayH, I agree with your assessment.  It's interesting to note that Putin is regularly saying that sanctions are not hurting Russia, yet many of his financial officials are saying quite the opposite.  I am beginning to think that Putin is truly not so bright as many give him credit for.  His ego is running Russia into the toilet because he is unwilling to admit his mistakes and pull back from his dreams.  Time will tell how long the Russian elite and the sheeple will put up with his behavior.

The nationalistic popularity he enjoys at the moment may well quickly evaporate as soon as reality kicks in and affects their lives directly.
Doug (Calmissile)

Offline AkMike

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Re: Poroshenko claims Ukraine is now being offered weapons by NATO.
« Reply #314 on: October 25, 2014, 12:24:29 AM »
You mean these 'Russian sheeple"??? :deadhorse:

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Re: Poroshenko claims Ukraine is now being offered weapons by NATO.
« Reply #315 on: October 25, 2014, 03:10:24 AM »
JayH, I agree with your assessment.  It's interesting to note that Putin is regularly saying that sanctions are not hurting Russia, yet many of his financial officials are saying quite the opposite.  I am beginning to think that Putin is truly not so bright as many give him credit for.  His ego is running Russia into the toilet because he is unwilling to admit his mistakes and pull back from his dreams.  Time will tell how long the Russian elite and the sheeple will put up with his behavior.

The nationalistic popularity he enjoys at the moment may well quickly evaporate as soon as reality kicks in and affects their lives directly.


I think many here think Putler is still making the calls. IMNSHO, he's just calling the play coming from the sidelines.
To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason, and whose philosophy consists in holding humanity in contempt, is like administering medicine to the dead. Thomas Paine - The American Crisis 1776-1783

lordtiberius

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Re: Poroshenko claims Ukraine is now being offered weapons by NATO.
« Reply #316 on: October 25, 2014, 06:15:12 AM »
The Russians could always use tactical nukes to achieve victory.

Poroshenko should supply the volunteer battalions who are doing much of the fighting.

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Re: Poroshenko claims Ukraine is now being offered weapons by NATO.
« Reply #317 on: October 25, 2014, 09:24:51 AM »
To claim that Americans only achieve victories because of air superiority is foolish.  Without going into all of the details I call rubbish on that assertion.

That said the Ukrainians have performed magnificently, but they still need heavy tanks and other heavy weapons from the West for defensive reasons to prevent Putler from gaining the upper hand and gaining his land bridge to Crimea.

Any belief that they could withstand a total Russian invasion with material assistance is foolish.

Offline Muzh

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Re: Poroshenko claims Ukraine is now being offered weapons by NATO.
« Reply #318 on: October 25, 2014, 11:05:38 AM »
To claim that Americans only achieve victories because of air superiority is foolish.  Without going into all of the details I call rubbish on that assertion.

That said the Ukrainians have performed magnificently, but they still need heavy tanks and other heavy weapons from the West for defensive reasons to prevent Putler from gaining the upper hand and gaining his land bridge to Crimea.

Any belief that they could withstand a total Russian invasion with material assistance is foolish.


I think you are wishful-thinking regarding their ground forces ability without air cover. If the Russians decide to use their air superiority, the party is over. Turn out the lights.
To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason, and whose philosophy consists in holding humanity in contempt, is like administering medicine to the dead. Thomas Paine - The American Crisis 1776-1783

Offline AkMike

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Re: Poroshenko claims Ukraine is now being offered weapons by NATO.
« Reply #319 on: October 25, 2014, 11:56:50 AM »
The Russians could always use tactical nukes to achieve victory.

Poroshenko should supply the volunteer battalions who are doing much of the fighting.

Nukes are out of the scenario totally. He needs the land and the people to supply food. Besides this will bring the Budapest Accord into play. Not to mention WWIII.

You don't seem to understand. The volunteers can't be supplied by Poro because the coffers are dry thanks to Yanku and clan. The people of UA are digging into their pockets to do this. You can also donate.

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Re: Poroshenko claims Ukraine is now being offered weapons by NATO.
« Reply #320 on: October 25, 2014, 03:19:55 PM »
I can contribute to the absurdity of this discussion. 

Putin will never attack the US knowing that that our cosmos weaponry program, developed under Ronald Reagan's SDI research,  can on cue unleash thousands of meteorites to destroy Russian cities, oil fields, missile sites, etc.

We have already given Putin a demonstration of this program using a very small meteorite (Chelyabinsk, 15 February 2013).

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Re: Poroshenko claims Ukraine is now being offered weapons by NATO.
« Reply #321 on: October 25, 2014, 05:23:07 PM »
I can contribute to the absurdity of this discussion. 

Putin will never attack the US knowing that that our cosmos weaponry program, developed under Ronald Reagan's SDI research,  can on cue unleash thousands of meteorites to destroy Russian cities, oil fields, missile sites, etc.

We have already given Putin a demonstration of this program using a very small meteorite (Chelyabinsk, 15 February 2013).


I'm going to assume you're joking (adding to the absurdity) but if not please elaborate and provide some links.

Offline AC

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Re: Poroshenko claims Ukraine is now being offered weapons by NATO.
« Reply #322 on: October 25, 2014, 05:32:36 PM »

I think you are wishful-thinking regarding their ground forces ability without air cover. If the Russians decide to use their air superiority, the party is over. Turn out the lights.

Up thread a battle on August 24 & 25 was described and the Ukrainian soldier who was captured said that he and his comrades (most of whom are dead) were overwhelmed in 20 minutes and the Russians did not use their air superiority.  I believe the Russians could take all the way to Transnistria without it; but certainly quicker with it. 

I was referring to Jay's comment that the American Military only wins because of air superiority and I disagree.  Certainly helps but if we had a total commitment of tanks, infantry, artillery, as well as special forces even without air coverage our military is better than any other fighting force.

Instead of realizing that time is critical and helping the Ukrainians Obama is golfing and sending our military to Africa for civilian duties having to do with Ebola.  It's really a disgrace.
« Last Edit: October 25, 2014, 05:35:34 PM by AC »

Offline fathertime

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Re: Poroshenko claims Ukraine is now being offered weapons by NATO.
« Reply #323 on: October 25, 2014, 09:12:46 PM »
Nukes are out of the scenario totally. He needs the land and the people to supply food. Besides this will bring the Budapest Accord into play. Not to mention WWIII.

Nuclear weapons are not out of the scenario totally.  The fact that they exist and Russia has them has frozen much of the west in place.  Use of nuclear weapons is not necessary, just having them, and a credible way to deliver them is enough. 


Could these weapons be used?  Yes they could, but the west will not push hard enough to put Russia/Putin in a position where their leader starts to really consider it...it appears he is already getting a lot of what he wants anyway.  All the important nations seem to know better then to escalate TOO far against Russia...       


Fathertime!   
I just happened to be browsing about the internet....

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Re: Poroshenko claims Ukraine is now being offered weapons by NATO.
« Reply #324 on: October 25, 2014, 10:54:51 PM »

I was referring to Jay's comment that the American Military only wins because of air superiority and I disagree.  Certainly helps but if we had a total commitment of tanks, infantry, artillery, as well as special forces even without air coverage our military is better than any other fighting force.


To claim that Americans only achieve victories because of air superiority is foolish.  Without going into all of the details I call rubbish on that assertion.



AC--- in the interests of accuracy as to what I actually said-I never like being attributed with something I did not say--- and if you look at your assertion-- and what I actually said--there is 2 comments I made that you have confused.Sure--I am being pedantic to a degree--but as you can see there is a significant difference.
  With all due respect to American ground troops-- without significant air superiority they would do no better than Ukrainians.America has always used a strategy of overwhelming numbers to attain a victory-- and that has not always been successful .
SLAVA UKRAYINI  ! HEROYAM SLAVA!!!!
Слава Украине! Слава героям слава!Слава Україні! Слава героям!
 translated as: Glory to Ukraine! Glory to the heroes!!!  is a Ukrainian greeting slogan being used now all over Ukraine to signify support for a free independent Ukraine

 

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