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Author Topic: The Propaganda War  (Read 407955 times)

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Offline Ronnie

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Re: The Propaganda War
« Reply #650 on: August 20, 2014, 03:50:55 AM »
She's a resident of Slavyansk.  She says the DNR's so-called protectors" were nothing but bandits, Chechens and drug adicts with automatic weapons in their hands and how she wants the Ukrainian Army to get them out of her town. (the did, of course).
Of course this is true.  I live in Odesa and come across refugees from the ATO zone who say the same.  These Russian-lead terrorists car killing people, shelling homes (and blaming the Ukraine army), hijacking cars off the streets and from car sales salons.

Ronnie
Fourth year now living in Ukraine.  Speak Russian, Will Answer Questions.

Offline Ronnie

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Re: The Propaganda War
« Reply #651 on: August 20, 2014, 04:18:33 AM »
Even worse than the bike show propaganda ...now they are using little girls to make Ukraine out to be a war monger.  Wow.  How do normal Russians deal with this insane propaganda?  Are they not insulted by the assumptions made by their government that Russians will believe this, when most of them know people who live in Ukraine and know there are no fascists or warmongers here except the ones Moscow sends in to destabilize the country, to punish it for getting rid of their puppet, Yanukovych.

.http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=TaXKGToxduE
Ronnie
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Offline GQBlues

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Re: The Propaganda War
« Reply #652 on: August 21, 2014, 05:33:55 PM »
Apparently, NPR is one of many flabbergasted media, including OSCE and the US Intelliegnce, trying to get *proofs* of claims and accusations being repeatedly made in this silly conflict but keeps coming up *zero*.

http://www.npr.org/2014/08/21/342095395/news-out-of-eastern-ukraine-battle-zone-is-hard-to-confirm

Or, listen to the Podcast instead.

Quote
....
As to the deadly attack on the refugee convoy, I still don't know what happened, as the Ukrainian military decided to make us leave the area before we met with the injured refugees we were told we'd be interviewing because the fighting was too intense.

Nor did we meet the military driver who served as an escort for that ill-fated convoy. Ukrainian officials said they would bring him to us outside the no-go zone since they failed to take us to see the wounded refugees. But in the end, the military did not deliver the driver, either....


MH17, the *completely destroyed Russian artillery convoy* that Poroshenko claimed a week ago, etc...
« Last Edit: August 21, 2014, 05:36:26 PM by GQBlues »
Quote from: msmob
1. Because of 'man', global warming is causing desert and arid areas to suffer long, dry spell.
2. The 2018 Camp Fire and Woolsey California wildfires are forests burning because of global warming.
3. N95 mask will choke you dead after 30 min. of use.

lordtiberius

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Re: The Propaganda War
« Reply #653 on: August 21, 2014, 07:01:09 PM »
This is a lot of opinions from a guy who says he is indifferent to what happens in Ukraine

Offline missAmeno

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Re: The Propaganda War
« Reply #654 on: August 22, 2014, 05:18:55 AM »
Apparently, NPR is one of many flabbergasted media, including OSCE and the US Intelliegnce, trying to get *proofs* of claims and accusations being repeatedly made in this silly conflict but keeps coming up *zero*.

http://www.npr.org/2014/08/21/342095395/news-out-of-eastern-ukraine-battle-zone-is-hard-to-confirm


Quote from the link provided:
Quote
But Ukrainian officials have yet to offer any proof of the attack, including photos, videos, eyewitnesses or survivors.

Do they mean something along the lines of this?
http://24tv.ua/home/showSingleNews.do?mashinu_rozirvalo_na_shmatki__ochevidets_pro_obstril_avtobusa_z_bizhentsya mi_video&objectId=476056

If so internet is full of it for those who wish to look for it instead of spamming net with 'no proof' BS.

Offline Photo Guy

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Re: The Propaganda War
« Reply #655 on: August 22, 2014, 10:14:22 AM »
Yes, there is plenty of proof out there.

What do Russians think of this fact??:
the Russian convoy of 280 tracks are 'almost empty', containing only water and salt.
What conclusions can we draw from that? To me it looks like Russia has no intention of helping in eastern Ukraine. Why aren't the trucks also filled with food and medicine? Again Russia is showing no respect for Ukrainian territorial integrity. This is what the world sees. ...The trucks should be used to remove pro-Russian separatists!

Offline GQBlues

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Re: The Propaganda War
« Reply #656 on: August 22, 2014, 10:36:25 AM »
Quote from the link provided:
Do they mean something along the lines of this?
http://24tv.ua/home/showSingleNews.do?mashinu_rozirvalo_na_shmatki__ochevidets_pro_obstril_avtobusa_z_bizhentsya mi_video&objectId=476056

If so internet is full of it for those who wish to look for it instead of spamming net with 'no proof' BS.

Oh, another social media anecdotal *proof* in a country widely known to be corrupt.

Poroshenko claimed the army completely destroyed a Russian heavy artillery convoy, but no one can seem to find remnants of the destroyed convoy. It's been reported that supplies keep coming from Russia, but even with the US intelligence on the ground, in the air, OSCE monitors, not the UN monitors, etc...no one from any of these entities can come forth and present hard irrefutable evidences other than youtube/twitter feeds conveniently provided for by Kiev.

Yup, there sure is a whole lot of *proofs* out there in the internet, isn't it?
Quote from: msmob
1. Because of 'man', global warming is causing desert and arid areas to suffer long, dry spell.
2. The 2018 Camp Fire and Woolsey California wildfires are forests burning because of global warming.
3. N95 mask will choke you dead after 30 min. of use.

Offline fathertime

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Re: The Propaganda War
« Reply #657 on: August 22, 2014, 10:52:54 AM »


  To me it looks like Russia has no intention of helping in eastern Ukraine. Why aren't the trucks also filled with food and medicine? Again Russia is showing no respect for Ukrainian territorial integrity. This is what the world sees. .


Speaking of territorial integrity...it has been all over the news lately from the Obama people that Syria no longer has official borders because ISIS doesn't recognize them...I suspect it won't be much longer before we are dropping bombs from afar in their country....but that doesn't matter because Syria doesn't have an 'official border' anymore.  :rolleyes:   If the USA can do what it wants then who are we to tell other countries  " NO you may not"! 


Fathertime! 
I just happened to be browsing about the internet....

Offline Muzh

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Re: The Propaganda War
« Reply #658 on: August 22, 2014, 11:15:51 AM »

Speaking of territorial integrity...it has been all over the news lately from the Obama people that Syria no longer has official borders because ISIS doesn't recognize them...I suspect it won't be much longer before we are dropping bombs from afar in their country....but that doesn't matter because Syria doesn't have an 'official border' anymore.  :rolleyes:   If the USA can do what it wants then who are we to tell other countries  " NO you may not"! 


Fathertime!




Heh, heh, heh


That never deterred the US from dropping bombs somewhere. Ask the Colombians. You of all people should know.
(Hint, Hint: Since you can't see past your nose, look up the birth of Panama. Definitely a win-win. But not for the Colombians)
To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason, and whose philosophy consists in holding humanity in contempt, is like administering medicine to the dead. Thomas Paine - The American Crisis 1776-1783

Offline fathertime

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Re: The Propaganda War
« Reply #659 on: August 22, 2014, 11:21:22 AM »



Heh, heh, heh


That never deterred the US from dropping bombs somewhere.


Well then if we are dropping bombs everywhere without respect to 'territorial integrity' that should be something Photoguy takes note of, as he was just groaning that Russia isn't showing the respect to Ukraine, the very thing that the USA also doesn't show to other countries. 


Fathertime!   
I just happened to be browsing about the internet....

Offline Muzh

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Re: The Propaganda War
« Reply #660 on: August 22, 2014, 11:38:08 AM »

Well then if we are dropping bombs everywhere without respect to 'territorial integrity' that should be something Photoguy takes note of, as he was just groaning that Russia isn't showing the respect to Ukraine, the very thing that the USA also doesn't show to other countries. 


Fathertime!


Why is Photoguy part of this? I was trying to educate you, not Photoguy.


It's useless. :P
To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason, and whose philosophy consists in holding humanity in contempt, is like administering medicine to the dead. Thomas Paine - The American Crisis 1776-1783

Offline fathertime

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Re: The Propaganda War
« Reply #661 on: August 22, 2014, 11:45:05 AM »

Why is Photoguy part of this? I was trying to educate you, not Photoguy.


It's useless. :P


Your post was to a response (0f mine) to his (PHotoguy's) post regarding 'territorial integrity' ...   Perhaps that is a little too complicated for you, but I understand. If you can't keep up, maybe somebody can sell you the Cliff Notes. 


Fathertime!   
I just happened to be browsing about the internet....

Offline Muzh

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Re: The Propaganda War
« Reply #662 on: August 22, 2014, 12:11:07 PM »

Your post was to a response (0f mine) to his (PHotoguy's) post regarding 'territorial integrity' ...   Perhaps that is a little too complicated for you, but I understand. If you can't keep up, maybe somebody can sell you the Cliff Notes. 


Fathertime!


Try if you must. You still sound foolish.


Heh heh heh
To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason, and whose philosophy consists in holding humanity in contempt, is like administering medicine to the dead. Thomas Paine - The American Crisis 1776-1783

Offline fathertime

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Re: The Propaganda War
« Reply #663 on: August 22, 2014, 12:27:49 PM »

Try if you must. You still sound foolish.


Heh heh heh


Sound?  You can 'hear' me?  What big ears you have!







Fathertime! 

I just happened to be browsing about the internet....

Offline missAmeno

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Re: The Propaganda War
« Reply #664 on: August 22, 2014, 01:35:48 PM »
Oh, another social media anecdotal *proof* in a country widely known to be corrupt.

Is this is some kind of sick joke?

You posted link to article in which claim made there is no any proof of the attack, including photos, videos, eyewitnesses or survivors.
I posted link to video where eyewitnesses or survivors told what happened, I didn't start to post photos because it is heartbreaking as it is without photos in the hope that people have enough of common sense to realize how ridiculous for author of article to claim there is no any proof of the attack.
Writing on net gibberish about country that know almost nothing about and language of which do not understand is easy. Be fool enough to comment on something that language barrier makes unable to understand is easy too and even easier to try to be an expert on the net on what is real and what is anecdotal proof  in foreigner to you country, mentality and language.  :wallbash:


Poroshenko claimed the army completely destroyed a Russian heavy artillery convoy, but no one can seem to find remnants of the destroyed convoy. It's been reported that supplies keep coming from Russia, but even with the US intelligence on the ground, in the air, OSCE monitors, not the UN monitors, etc...no one from any of these entities can come forth and present hard irrefutable evidences other than youtube/twitter feeds conveniently provided for by Kiev.

Yup, there sure is a whole lot of *proofs* out there in the internet, isn't it?

Oh so because nothing to say on one matter lets bring completely different one in.  :wallbash:
Lets do so, you post what exactly word to word Poroshenko claimed and then we discuss that matter, instead of writing 'net expertise' nonsense which has no value or much in comment with reality.

EDIT: by the way NATO officials confirmed Russia is supplying tanks, artillery, etc to separatists.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2014, 02:59:51 PM by missAmeno »

Offline GQBlues

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Re: The Propaganda War
« Reply #665 on: August 22, 2014, 03:40:37 PM »
Is this is some kind of sick joke?

You posted link to article in which claim made there is no any proof of the attack, including photos, videos, eyewitnesses or survivors.

I posted link to video where eyewitnesses or survivors told what happened, I didn't start to post photos because it is heartbreaking as it is without photos in the hope that people have enough of common sense to realize how ridiculous for author of article to claim there is no any proof of the attack.

Writing on net gibberish about country that know almost nothing about and language of which do not understand is easy. Be fool enough to comment on something that language barrier makes unable to understand is easy too and even easier to try to be an expert on the net on what is real and what is anecdotal proof  in foreigner to you country, mentality and language.  :wallbash: ...

Again, social media (youtube/twitter/facebookV/k) FWIW is *not* irrefutable proof. You and Kiev may want everyone to believe so, I do not.

Quote
...Oh so because nothing to say on one matter lets bring completely different one in.  :wallbash: ...

LOL. No, this was only ONE OF the many claims and accusations void of any irrefutable evidence. Youtubes, twitter, etc...does not count.

Quote
...Lets do so, you post what exactly word to word Poroshenko claimed and then we discuss that matter, instead of writing 'net expertise' nonsense which has no value or much in comment with reality....

Come again. I didn't understand this part.

Quote
...EDIT: by the way NATO officials confirmed Russia is supplying tanks, artillery, etc to separatists....

Where's their evidence? They've been saying this since this conflict began, and was repeatedly asked by reporters why they haven't ben able to provide proofs that this is in fact happening.

The US State Department also condemned the *mortar attack* by the separatist when they tried to flee the city, which the rebels knew nothing about, only to say a day later that they didn't have actual evidence other than what the Ukrainian government told them so. LOL.

>><<
QUESTION: Okay. Were you – yesterday, you had – you condemned the attack on this IDP convoy --
MS. HARF: Yes.
QUESTION: -- that you said – you added that you didn’t know or that you didn’t have any confirmation as to who did it. I’m wondering if you have gotten any clarity.
MS. HARF: We do not have any more clarity on that today. I again will strongly condemn it, and we’re not in a position to confirm details of this alleged incident. I know the Ukrainian Government and military spokespersons – I will use the non-sexist term – have given briefings on the incident, including updates on efforts to recover bodies. But I can’t independently confirm the details about anything related to the incident.
QUESTION: Can you confirm that it did happen?
QUESTION: Well, did it happen?
QUESTION: Yeah.
MS. HARF: Hello.
QUESTION: How are you?
QUESTION: (Inaudible) whether or not it happened --
QUESTION: You just called – yesterday --
MS. HARF: Yes.
QUESTION: -- your comments were – you condemned the shelling and rocketing of this convoy.
MS. HARF: Yes.
QUESTION: Today, you’re saying that you would condemn this --
MS. HARF: I don’t have reason to believe it didn’t. I just – we can’t confirm the details, many of which have been out there in the press about what happened specifically.
QUESTION: Well, but you referred to it as an alleged incident just now. Does that mean that you think that --
MS. HARF: I think this is what I said yesterday, but we can double-check.
QUESTION: No.
MS. HARF: Maybe it’s not.
QUESTION: No, no. You didn’t say it was alleged.
MS. HARF: Alleged? Okay.
QUESTION: Your – are you certain that it happened?
MS. HARF: We have no indication to believe it didn’t.
QUESTION: Well --
MS. HARF: But I can’t confirm the details surrounding --
QUESTION: I’m just curious as to why you went – why it’s now an alleged incident.
MS. HARF: Let me check with our folks. And if I didn’t say it yesterday, that may have just been an oversight. We are in the same place we were yesterday. We’ve seen the reports. The Ukrainian Government has put out quite a number of details about what they say happened. We don’t have reason to believe they didn’t. We just can’t independently confirm them.


http://www.state.gov/r/pa/prs/dpb/2014/08/230741.htm#UKRAINE


MissA, US State Department Press Briefings is a daily briefing given to reporters for information relating to current global events. They gather information from respective government and official sources the world over, including but not limited to, intelligence, respective countries' government officials and other means of acquiring information they feel is worthwhile to share...
« Last Edit: August 22, 2014, 03:43:20 PM by GQBlues »
Quote from: msmob
1. Because of 'man', global warming is causing desert and arid areas to suffer long, dry spell.
2. The 2018 Camp Fire and Woolsey California wildfires are forests burning because of global warming.
3. N95 mask will choke you dead after 30 min. of use.

Offline Muzh

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Re: The Propaganda War
« Reply #666 on: August 22, 2014, 04:05:19 PM »

MissA, US State Department Press Briefings is a daily briefing given to reporters for information relating to current global events. They gather information from respective government and official sources the world over, including but not limited to, intelligence, respective countries' government officials and other means of acquiring information they feel is worthwhile to share...


At least someone is trusting what our government is saying.  ;D


So far, many don't believe one iota what they say. That is until it can prove their point.


Hat cha cha.
To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason, and whose philosophy consists in holding humanity in contempt, is like administering medicine to the dead. Thomas Paine - The American Crisis 1776-1783

Offline Muzh

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Re: The Propaganda War
« Reply #667 on: August 22, 2014, 04:29:52 PM »
Today, the Russian Ambassador to the United Nations categorically denied that there are any Russian troops in Ukraine or that Russia is supplying weapons to the "separatists."


To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason, and whose philosophy consists in holding humanity in contempt, is like administering medicine to the dead. Thomas Paine - The American Crisis 1776-1783

lordtiberius

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Re: The Propaganda War
« Reply #668 on: August 22, 2014, 08:19:33 PM »

Sound?  You can 'hear' me?  What big ears you have!







Fathertime!

More insults?  Ohhhh yes please!

Offline missAmeno

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Re: The Propaganda War
« Reply #669 on: August 22, 2014, 08:44:44 PM »
Again, social media (youtube/twitter/facebookV/k) FWIW is *not* irrefutable proof. You and Kiev may want everyone to believe so, I do not.

I did not provide link to social media, youtube, twitter or facebok.


Come again. I didn't understand this part.

Post Poroshenko's exact words as he said.

Where's their evidence? They've been saying this since this conflict began, and was repeatedly asked by reporters why they haven't ben able to provide proofs that this is in fact happening.


Quote
We have also seen transfers of large quantities of advanced weapons, including tanks, armoured personnel carriers, and artillery to separatist groups in Eastern Ukraine.

http://www.nato.int/cps/en/natolive/news_112089.htm

Or the only valid evidence in your eyes is Putin's admission 'grasshoppers are not only green but also russian'?

Offline Boethius

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Re: The Propaganda War
« Reply #670 on: August 22, 2014, 11:27:46 PM »
Oh, another social media anecdotal *proof* in a country widely known to be corrupt.

Poroshenko claimed the army completely destroyed a Russian heavy artillery convoy, but no one can seem to find remnants of the destroyed convoy. It's been reported that supplies keep coming from Russia, but even with the US intelligence on the ground, in the air, OSCE monitors, not the UN monitors, etc...no one from any of these entities can come forth and present hard irrefutable evidences other than youtube/twitter feeds conveniently provided for by Kiev.

Yup, there sure is a whole lot of *proofs* out there in the internet, isn't it?


Those individuals in missA's link are working class, ordinary citizens and no, from what they are saying it is not a set up, they are not being forced, or paid, to say anything. 


As for NATO -
Quote

Hours after the Russian convoy entered without permission Friday, NATO announced that Russian artillery units were firing on Ukrainian forces inside Ukraine.

Russian artillery support has been “employed against Ukrainian armed forces,” NATO said in a statement.

“Moreover, NATO is observing an alarming build-up of Russian ground and air forces in the vicinity of Ukraine,” the statement reads.

Since mid-August, NATO observers have noted “major escalation in Russian military involvement” in the region, including the use of Russian troops.

http://news.nationalpost.com/2014/08/22/fed-up-with-waiting-for-permission-russia-sends-aid-trucks-into-ukraine-in-what-kyiv-calls-a-direct-invasion/
« Last Edit: August 22, 2014, 11:33:45 PM by Boethius »
After the fall of communism, the biggest mistake Boris Yeltsin's regime made was not to disband the KGB altogether. Instead it changed its name to the FSB and, to many observers, morphed into a gangster organisation, eventually headed by master criminal Vladimir Putin. - Gerard Batten

Offline jone

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Re: The Propaganda War
« Reply #671 on: August 23, 2014, 06:11:59 AM »


Picture of Russian Tank destroyed in Illovaysk



Out of one of the tanks, one of young Russian tankist's Russian Internal Passport. 



Picture of two 'separatists' - one with GRU markings on his uniform (he probably sewed those on to confuse the press  ::) )

Then there are the eight paratroopers from the 76th Division from Pskov injured (critically) in one of the area hospitals in Lugansk.  Must be that they came across the border to seek better medical care than they could receive in Russia.  (Why else would they be in Ukraine?)

It took me less than three minutes of looking on the internet to obtain pictures.  None were from Social Networks.

My problem with GQ's assertions are that they are intellectually lazy.  I read both sides of the conflict.  The US intelligence community is intentionally staying out of providing proofs.  Now, why do you think that might be?  Come on, GQ.  You can figure this out.  It doesn't take too much of a level of intelligence to understand why the US intelligence community remains 'hands off'.

Reading that ID card above, I am left wondering what Ilya's family would say if they were interviewed:  Whether they would say he came all the way to Ukraine as part of the Russian military and then just volunteered to go across the border and get killed in his tank? 

Russia owes it to their soldiers that are dying to admit that they are fighting.  Young Ilya died a horrible death and Russia disowns him. 
Kissing girls is a goodness.  It beats the hell out of card games.  - Robert Heinlein

lordtiberius

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Re: The Propaganda War
« Reply #672 on: August 23, 2014, 07:11:52 AM »

This is a great post

Russia owes it to their soldiers that are dying to admit that they are fighting.  Young Ilya died a horrible death and Russia disowns him.

Russia the Soviets have been doing this for years . . . .



Another military tradition

Offline GQBlues

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Re: The Propaganda War
« Reply #673 on: August 23, 2014, 08:47:07 AM »
I did not provide link to social media, youtube, twitter or facebok....

You sure you don't want to make sure of this first? It's only a few posts upthread.


Quote
Post Poroshenko's exact words as he said.

He said, "GQ is right. You can Google this easily enough yourself"


Quote
..http://www.nato.int/cps/en/natolive/news_112089.htm

Or the only valid evidence in your eyes is Putin's admission 'grasshoppers are not only green but also russian'?

Oh look! Another NATO sighting report! They sure can *see* everything, no? I wish someone else should borrow their binoculars now and then though.



Those individuals in missA's link are working class, ordinary citizens and no, from what they are saying it is not a set up, they are not being forced, or paid, to say anything....

 Sure.

It's an honest testimony because a) he used to be your neighbor; b) they're Ukrainian and they're in Ukraine; c) ordinary people don't lie in Ukraine; and most importantly; d) it's on YouTube.

It must be real.  :rolleyes:

Quote
As for NATO -
[/size]
http://news.nationalpost.com/2014/08/22/fed-up-with-waiting-for-permission-russia-sends-aid-trucks-into-ukraine-in-what-kyiv-calls-a-direct-invasion/


Dang! Another NATO sighting/proclamation!!! Surprise, surprise.

It's amazing how these guys are everywhere in a place they're not supposed to be in, errr wait...that didn't sound right, did it?

....It took me less than three minutes of looking on the internet to obtain pictures.  None were from Social Networks....

LOL. Pictures of what exactly and in what context? I can probably do the same thing showing a Russian tank beside 2 elephants fcoking in the Arctic.

Anyway, I bet it also took you that long to say there are guards with tanks and machine guns along the border of Transnistria like you did on this thread.

http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=17489.msg373721#msg373721

Quote
...My problem with GQ's assertions are that they are intellectually lazy.  I read both sides of the conflict.  The US intelligence community is intentionally staying out of providing proofs.  Now, why do you think that might be?  Come on, GQ.  You can figure this out.  It doesn't take too much of a level of intelligence to understand why the US intelligence community remains 'hands off'....

Let me get this straight. They make rampant accusations, but when asked to provide evidence to support their accusations, it is *quite understandable* why they shouldn't? LMAO. This is likely the reason why they declassified *Digital Globe's satelitte images* as proof, right? If they cannot provide any evidence for what they accuse others of, then why even accuse anyone to begin with?

That's about as *intellectually lazy* as someone arguing ferociously with someone as though he's an authority over the subject, including speaking for thousands of people he doesn't know; over a *word* in his native language he didn't knew the definition of all along.

Then to make matters even sillier, once called on it, he immediately sends a PM to that someone admitting getting blown out to bits for that silliness to save face, but at the same time tries to maintain the persona on a public forum. Then, pulls a Ferguson and cries out seeking justice and pity...LMAO!

Do you know someone like that, jone?

Dude. You're probably the biggest wazoo I know. I am not surprised you're just a SoCal wannabe. We aren't all from Wisconsin, you know.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2014, 09:01:37 AM by GQBlues »
Quote from: msmob
1. Because of 'man', global warming is causing desert and arid areas to suffer long, dry spell.
2. The 2018 Camp Fire and Woolsey California wildfires are forests burning because of global warming.
3. N95 mask will choke you dead after 30 min. of use.

lordtiberius

  • Guest
Re: The Propaganda War
« Reply #674 on: August 23, 2014, 09:44:41 AM »
This is the Russia they are defending:



Anti-Putin Activist Nasibov before the attacks

http://www.rferl.org/content/azerbaijan-attack-rights-activist-nasibov/26545123.html


Attacked in 2009



Attacked in 2014





Tell us again how Putin and Russia are innocent.  It ain't propaganda if its the truth.  Stop lying.

 

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