Russian Women Discussion
RWD Discussion Groups => Experienced => Topic started by: Daveman on February 17, 2013, 12:09:18 PM
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Don't be coy with me - I'm not your average MOBer.
No offense meant with the following:
What is an average MOBer, and how do you differ? I don't know, GQ, I've read your posts going way back, and your story of meeting, living life, age gap, etc., seems to echo commonalities with many other that I've read and is also divergent from many others. Nothing wrong with that as all of our stories have some aspects in common as well as differences. What I don't understand is the constant need to distance yourself from the elusive, enigmatic, and I reckon stereotypical profile (whatever that is) of an "MOB'er". So what exactly is it? (anyone?)
Perhaps a good thread topic but here would be as good a place as any..
...They can see right through men involved in the MOB.
Seems to me that they project what they wish to believe. Some guys will inevitably fit the bill and others won't.
You should spend some valuable time making preparations for the arrival of your gal. Check University/Community College schedules and itineraries, ESL centers, etc...things that will prove to be a great value for her acclimation once she gets here than to be posting drivels endlessly on message boards.
absolutely agree.
Not bashing, dude...just keeping this real.
Same here.
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No offense meant with the following:..
Nope. I can never be offended. I am the BATMAN!
...What is an average MOBer, and how do you differ? I don't know, GQ, I've read your posts going way back, and your story of meeting, living life, age gap, etc., seems to echo commonalities with many other that I've read and is also divergent from many others...nothing wrong with that as all of our stories have some aspects in common as well as differences. What I don't understand is the constant need to distance yourself from the elusive, enigmatic, and I reckon stereotypical profile (whatever that is) of an "MOB'er". So what exactly is it? (anyone?)...
Need?!? It isn't a *need*. It's a fact.
Since you said you've read my posts for a spell now (until way back) then you would know nothing in my post now contradict what I've written in the past.
So, aside from being so darn sexy, let me count other ways I KNOW I'm not a typical MOBer.....
1. I could never go back *looking* for another wife in the FSU if the first one didn't work out. Especially NOT within a relatively short time you see so many do around here. That's borderline horse trading to me.
2. I'm not so deluded to believe FSUWs are the end all and be all...
3. I neither claimed all AWs are fat, nor was I ever threatened by a woman's aspiration to search for her personal worth and value as an individual. Her personal success, with or before me, is never a threat to my manhood.
4. I can never fall in love with a woman's picture/s before I even meet her in person.
5. I can never send hundreds and thousands of dollars to a woman I just met and consider her a GF after meeting her once.
6. I will never take the notion any of these women signed up for international marriage because of *me* despite not having an iota of an idea *I* even exist when she first signed up.
7. I will never hold the belief what the woman/women doesn't know, or didn't ask - I don't have to tell. That's just as bad as lying and that's what's being exchange here constantly as an advice amongst these MOBers.
8. I would have never spent years - and hundreds and thousands of dollars - hitting places like Ukraine/Russia, or any other MOB region - *looking* for a wife.
9. I can never get so caught up with the idea of her being what she is - instead of who she is.
10. I have never denied how my wife and I met when people here ask.
11. I can never be caught up in the idea of the *MOB* that nothing else in my life can functionally exist anymore.
12. I don't brown nose my wife nor do I expect her to do so for me.
13. I don't flash my money around during courtship because I have nothing else to offer of myself.
14. I did not go to Russia with the notion I'm looking for a wife and told the women so.
15. I did not fret, was coy, held, lied about telling the women I am also meeting others during the time I'll be in Russia just to *see* if there's any mutual attraction or interest to pursue anything further. (Back-up plans? Really? LOL)
16. I encouraged women to do likewise until the time any of them is comfortably assured with me/us.
17. I can never subscribed to the silly idea my wife *sacrificed* all that she had ever known to be with *me* as so many of these drama kings would love to believe about themselves. Had my wife told me she's sacrificing anything to be with me, I would've moved on, stayed home and married a nice American gal who can see me as an addition in her life than a deduction. I am no more sacrificing any part of my life for marrying my wife as I'd like my partner to believe the same about me.
I could go on, but why bother...my posts are here in the archives and on the other board. Consistency is key. So, if you'd feel better believing I am like you and everyone, then more power to you bruddah. No skin off my nose...
...Perhaps a good thread topic but here would be as good a place as any...
To what end? For years you've been in boards like this, you should know by now reality has no residency in this venture. Folks are either deprived of social acceptance in their respective lairs and/or their mortal motor functions are way past expiry date and the MOB offer an option for an escape. Does it ever make you wonder why these blokes search each other out to be *friends*? Birds of feathers flock together, man.
...Seems to me that they project what they wish to believe. Some guys will inevitably fit the bill and others won't....
Next time when you get a chance, attend these AM/FSUW gatherings and honestly ask yourself...how many of these men can you really define with? How many of them do you have any commonality with? I asked myself that question many times and aside from our wives are generally from the same region - not much really - NO, actually nothing. Zip. Nada.
The majority of them (yes, not all) are social rejects and old geezers. You can literally see that in their daily postings.
...Same here.
Yup. There you have it.
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Nope. I can never be offended. I am the BATMAN!
Me either.. but I'm the CATMAN! ;D
Need?!? It isn't a *need*. It's a fact.
Since you said you've read my posts for a spell now (until way back) then you would know nothing in my post now contradict what I've written in the past.
Okay, so let's look at the list... thanks for taking the time to post it BTW..
So, aside from being so darn sexy, let me count other ways I KNOW I'm not a typical MOBer.....
Check
1. I could never go back *looking* for another wife in the FSU if the first one didn't work out. Especially NOT within a relatively short time you see so many do around here. That's borderline horse trading to me.
Not sure I follow the exact point. You mean after a divorce? or if a relationship didn't work out? Going back at all? Personally, I really don't think it matters much whether one goes back or not..
2. I'm not so deluded to believe FSUWs are the end all and be all...
Check... although mine is pretty darn special.. ;D
3. I neither claimed all AWs are fat, nor was I ever threatened by a woman's aspiration to search for her personal worth and value as an individual. Her personal success, with or before me, is never a threat to my manhood.
Check... But, I can't recall anyone ever posting about personal success being a threat. Most of the married guys I know are doing whatever they can to assist in bringing her personal success to fruition.
4. I can never fall in love with a woman's picture/s before I even meet her in person.
Check
5. I can never send hundreds and thousands of dollars to a woman I just met and consider her a GF after meeting her once.
Check
6. I will never take the notion any of these women signed up for international marriage because of *me* despite not having an iota of an idea *I* even exist when she first signed up.
Check... though I must not get the gist of that one, because the premise defies logic. Who would think such a thing?
7. I will never hold the belief what the woman/women doesn't know, or didn't ask - I don't have to tell. That's just as bad as lying and that's what's being exchange here constantly as an advice amongst these MOBers.
Related to VM? I never made a VM trip, but multiple VO's so I consider it a prolonged VM.. heh.. I never denied prior meetings, visits, or relationships but didn't bring them up either. Simply not polite unless the lady asks. Women always know anyway. It's only a matter of whether they broach the subject.
8. I would have never spent years - and hundreds and thousands of dollars - hitting places like Ukraine/Russia, or any other MOB region - *looking* for a wife.
You got me there.. I dated here and there...and mostly there.. for years until we met and built something we wanted to be permanent.
9. I can never get so caught up with the idea of her being what she is - instead of who she is.
Yeah, but what she is gives her that sexy accent. ;) Ya just can't teach that...
10. I have never denied how my wife and I met when people here ask.
Check
11. I can never be caught up in the idea of the *MOB* that nothing else in my life can functionally exist anymore.
I guess I can check that one as well. Such a though has not entered my mind.
12. I don't brown nose my wife nor do I expect her to do so for me.
Check
13. I don't flash my money around during courtship because I have nothing else to offer of myself.
Check.. only because I have no money.. >:D
14. I did not go to Russia with the notion I'm looking for a wife and told the women so.
Then why did you go? And how did you wind up meeting many? I went looking for fun and possibility, but the option of a relationship which may lead to marriage was always there.
15. I did not fret, was coy, held, lied about telling the women I am also meeting others during the time I'll be in Russia just to *see* if there's any mutual attraction or interest to pursue anything further. (Back-up plans? Really? LOL)
Half check.. never lied (though always on VO trips) but always took a couple of agency numbers along as a back up in case of the 10 second crash and burn.
16. I encouraged women to do likewise until the time any of them is comfortably assured with me/us.
Check...
17. I can never subscribed to the silly idea my wife *sacrificed* all that she had ever known to be with *me* as so many of these drama kings would love to believe about themselves. Had my wife told me she's sacrificing anything to be with me, I would've moved on, stayed home and married a nice American gal who can see me as an addition in her life than a deduction. I am no more sacrificing any part of my life for marrying my wife as I'd like my partner to believe the same about me.
Check.
I could go on, but why bother...my posts are here in the archives and on the other board. Consistency is key. So, if you'd feel better believing I am like you and everyone, then more power to you bruddah. No skin off my nose...
Facts are facts. We have more in common than we differ. Doesn't make me feel better or worse, just is what it is. And, the big kicker is that we both also imported a wife/partner. Regardless of anything else in common between us or with other guys doing something similar - are we not considered MOB'ers by everyone else?
To what end? For years you've been in boards like this, you should know by now reality has no residency in this venture. Folks are either deprived of social acceptance in their respective lairs and/or their mortal motor functions are way past expiry date and the MOB offer an option for an escape. Does it ever make you wonder why these blokes search each other out to be *friends*? Birds of feathers flock together, man.
Next time when you get a chance, attend these AM/FSUW gatherings and honestly ask yourself...how many of these men can you really define with? How many of them do you have any commonality with? I asked myself that question many times and aside from our wives are generally from the same region - not much really - NO, actually nothing. Zip. Nada.
Haven't attended one as of yet. Actually, We haven't met even another couple in person (Though we met JR when he and I were in Donetsk at the same time). We did attend a Russian Shashlik party, but I was the oddball as the only "foreigner" - heh - but it was pretty cool. There are a some couples on the forum here I'd enjoy meeting someday for sure if opportunity ever presents.
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So.... How do YOU (meaning anyone/everyone) define an MOB'er?
and.. would the ladies be MOB'ees, or MOB'ettes? :P
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GQ,
You have a unique talent. You answered directly Dave's charge to you, but you did so to probably the one person who could redefine what you were saying and make it look not unique. How could you have targeted that one individual? Well, that appears to be your true talent, my friend.
In many ways you are the Batman. I am probably more like you then like many of the other men on this site. But we all have our own uniqueness. Mine happens to be the predisposition of loving Eastern Europe and having traveled and conducted business there long before deciding to seek out a mate - if that's what I am doing.... I already know that I will live part of my future life in Eastern Europe. It would be foolish for me to marry or have relations with a California girl unless she has a similar urge to travel to such a destination. I do not seek age disparity. My present gal is only four years different than my ex. And my age and social mentality fits comfortably into the realm of not too old and not a geek.
Success or no success?
A successful MOBer can say that he has completed the cycle and wound up with a mate against great odds. Similarly, a woman who posts a profile on such a site faces even greater odds of success. So the married MOB couple are the pinnacle of those who have dabbled and tried, failed or were scammed or those who have wrung their hands without ever succeeding in making a trip overseas or of meeting such a man. In reality the successful MOBer is a staggeringly LOW percentage of those who consider this as a viable option for finding a mate.
Eye Candy:
What makes an FSU MOBer? The first answer to this has to be the Eye Candy. We see, we are interested. That simple. Unlike GQ's above description, if a man has a pulse, he is not going to be unmoved by the plethora of pictures to be had on any of the MOB sites. They are there. And these women are presumably looking themselves.
Anyone getting off at Terminal F at Borispol cannot help but see the type of woman that walks around the airport. The long legs. The blond hair. Trademarks of a Ukrainian woman. (Ironically my gal has neither blond hair, nor is that tall.)
Desperation?
I am always puzzled by the idea that people would consider us desperate. I am neither desperate nor willing to settle for anything less than someone who fulfills my personal needs. I have oft stated that any woman that I choose to be with will be kind and wise. Sometimes being kind and wise only comes from understanding that the man the woman is with is both loyal and dependable and able to provide for her needs and security. I like to think that the MOBer is smart enough not to settle for the average fare, whether in his home country or a country of his choosing.
No Illusions:
GQ brought up some interesting points about falling in love with a picture or identifying the woman as a girlfriend after one date. Too me this seems ludicrous. Ultimately the successful MOBer will have experienced some failure just as all men do in pursuit of a woman. Perhaps there will have been some money lost or repeated expectations that are not met. But ultimately the man who finds and marries a woman from the FSU that he met online, or through an agency, will both have experience in inter-cultural dating and the wooing of a woman without total communication. To do so requires great skill and empathy and a willingness to work through problems, sometimes not even knowing what the problems are or if they exist.
Now I am perfectly happy to discount 95% of the men who get on Anastasia Date or A Foreign Affair and start communicating with a woman that is less than half their age and has no intention of dating, much less marrying them. - especially if the woman is under 25, for example, and without attachments such as children. Such men should be held in contempt as fools. But they are not the successful ones. If they are, there is something unique about the man or unusual about the woman for the marriage to occur.
Expectation of Uniqueness:
I differ with GQ and slightly favor Dave on this issue. I happen to believe that the cultural heritage of an FSU woman makes her commitment to family and her willingness to cook and keep a good home refreshing in the world of the fast food restaurants of my current culture. Sure there are McDonalds in Ukraine. (McDonalds was the first building I saw upon entering Poltava.) But the mentality of an FSU woman is inclusive of the ability to cook and do things to keep a home nice, in spite of whatever other desires for personal achievement she may have.
I grew up in the Midwest. The values described above were the same there while I was growing up. In many ways, and I have multiple confirmations regarding this, FSU women mirror the values that we Midwesterners grew up with. But as Dave says, they come with this cute little accent.
We challenge ourselves to fly overseas to meet a woman that may or may not even be serious about a relationship. The risk is ours. To me that is the definition of an MOBer. He is someone who seeks out something unique that he believe can only be found at his destination and is willing to sacrifice much to verify that belief.
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Nope. I can never be offended. I am the BATMAN!
Do you become the BATMAN from being hit on the head too many times or from frequent use of the cluebat
:cluebat: :cluebat: :cluebat: :cluebat: :cluebat: :cluebat: :cluebat: :cluebat: :cluebat: :cluebat: :cluebat:
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GQ, that is an excellent list. Much of which I could have written myself. Maybe we should sticky tack a similar quiz so as to define newbies and categorize :devil: Perhaps we can identify MOB'ers by groupings or levels? Of course I am being facetious.
While many MOB'ers are similar in scope, many of us are as different as night and day. Quite frankly, there aren't many men in this pursuit or have been in this pursuit that I can identify with. Probably, that commonality alone would makes us average. There is only a few of the men that go this route that actually make the trips. On top of that there are even less that get the ball over the goal line.
IMHO, of those that do get it in the endzone, the divide in those few are far, wide and a very mixed bag. The crux of what I am trying to state here is, and I suppose this question is for you Daveman, at what point do you gauge the "average MOB'er?" The ones that flirt with the idea, the ones that make a trip or two, the ones that make many trips and wrought with failure, or the ones over the goal line?
IMHO, many of the men that go this route aren't even honest with themselves of why they look East. I suspect many and I mean very many are looking for sex tourism under the guise of "wife hunting" and would never admit that to themselves, much less someone else. Most of these men, even the social lepers and societal rejects can get married right at home with the girl down the street. Much less time/expense/headache. They do it because the girl down the street that they can get isn't 10-20 years younger, beautiful, different than the other 5 women down the street.
Many of the MOB'ers couldn't get laid in a women's prison with a fist full of pardons yet, they can go to the FSU and date younger beautiful women. I think it gives them a sense of hope that they are not lepers or rejects. Some need this affirmation. They can't get it at home for a bevy of reasons.
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GQ,
I will summarize my post by stating you have reached a new level of impudence.
Your list with a few exceptions is a good guideline for what not to do. But how many men do these stupid "No No's" when pursuing RW? All, most. many, some, few? I met a number of men who have pursued RW seriously, and most impress me as not stupid.
IMO you are exaggerating the stupidity of the typical MOBer. Why?
Are you deluding yourself in thinking that you are vastly different from the typical man who married a RW? I met you in Moscow in the middle of your WMVM trip. I read your entertaining trip report. You are no more different than the rest of us.
I would consider this as delusional arrogance; however,one quality of arrogance is to not spend time with inferior people. But here you are, spending time on a board with men who are (as you phrased it): "The majority of them (yes, not all) are social rejects and old geezers. You can literally see that in their daily postings."
The following quote reveals much about you:
Next time when you get a chance, attend these AM/FSUW gatherings and honestly ask yourself...how many of these men can you really define with? How many of them do you have any commonality with? I asked myself that question many times and aside from our wives are generally from the same region - not much really - NO, actually nothing. Zip. Nada.
Have you thought that maybe you are the social oddchild? If like here in Tampa, most men at these gatherings are happily married. While none are close friends (I don't play golf with any of them and I do not meet any for a drink), most men are professionals or successful in business, and that alone is enough for a polite conversation that usually reveals more about the depth of a man. Whether the man is a nerd, an old fart, a brash young man, ugly, fat, athletic.... it is all good. I will admit that I am the type who starts conversations with strangers on elevators rather than watch the floor numbers light up (and it annoys my RW wife who says Russians don't do this).
So why your repeated insistence about being better than most? Are you trying to be the "Who it is" of RWG. I consider it pretense. Yes, all of us are different and have pursued this endeavor in our own unique way. Yet when you take a close look, all of us put our trousers on one leg at a time. None of us are better than the other, just different.
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GQ,
I will summarize my post by stating you have reached a new level of impudence.
Your list with a few exceptions is a good guideline for what not to do. But how many men do these stupid "No No's" when pursuing RW? All, most. many, some, few? I met a number of men who have pursued RW seriously, and most impress me as not stupid.
IMO you are exaggerating the stupidity of the typical MOBer. Why?
Are you deluding yourself in thinking that you are vastly different from the typical man who married a RW? I met you in Moscow in the middle of your WMVM trip. I read your entertaining trip report. You are no more different than the rest of us.
I would consider this as delusional arrogance; however,one quality of arrogance is to not spend time with inferior people. But here you are, spending time on a board with men who are (as you phrased it): "The majority of them (yes, not all) are social rejects and old geezers. You can literally see that in their daily postings."
The following quote reveals much about you:
Have you thought that maybe you are the social oddchild? If like here in Tampa, most men at these gatherings are happily married. While none are close friends (I don't play golf with any of them and I do not meet any for a drink), most men are professionals or successful in business, and that alone is enough for a polite conversation that usually reveals more about the depth of a man. Whether the man is a nerd, an old fart, a brash young man, ugly, fat, athletic.... it is all good. I will admit that I am the type who starts conversations with strangers on elevators rather than watch the floor numbers light up (and it annoys my RW wife who says Russians don't do this).
So why your repeated insistence about being better than most? Are you trying to be the "Who it is" of RWG. I consider it pretense. Yes, all of us are different and have pursued this endeavor in our own unique way. Yet when you take a close look, all of us put our trousers on one leg at a time. None of us are better than the other, just different.
+100!!!!!! :clapping:
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GQ,
I will summarize my post by stating you have reached a new level of impudence.
Impudence?!? I reached a *new* level of impudence because of my response to Daveman’s inquiry (I presume Daveman’s inquiry was an attempt to incite a dialogue about the subject he chose). Well, that’s a hoot!
What’s the matter Gator, the highlighted items I cited is hitting home pretty hard with you? LOL. Which one/s were they? So listen, If anyone is being insolent it is YOU for attacking the messenger instead of the message. You know what I mean?
:P
...Your list with a few exceptions is a good guideline for what not to do. But how many men do these stupid "No No's" when pursuing RW? All, most. many, some, few? I met a number of men who have pursued RW seriously, and most impress me as not stupid...
Well, yes, of course not. There's a very obvious explanation for that, isn't there? Or do I have to elaborate on that point also?
... IMO you are exaggerating the stupidity of the typical MOBer. Why?
Exaggerating the stupidity of an MOBer? You’re saying those things I mentioned never happen and you’ve never seen any of these situations at all? Why am I not surprised with that statement....
....Are you deluding yourself in thinking that you are vastly different from the typical man who married a RW?...
The only deluded one in my book is you for thinking we're one and the same.
...I met you in Moscow in the middle of your WMVM trip....
Chalk that puppy up for the few mistakes I made in my life.
....I read your entertaining trip report. You are no more different than the rest of us....
Really now? Obviously you either didn't read it well enough or maybe there were other things in your mind.
...I would consider this as delusional arrogance; however,one quality of arrogance is to not spend time with inferior people. But here you are, spending time on a board with men who are (as you phrased it): "The majority of them (yes, not all) are social rejects and old geezers. You can literally see that in their daily postings."
The following quote reveals much about you:...
The arrogant one is YOU for even assuming I am spending time with social rejects when I already mentioned in that quoted statement *not all of them are* social rejects and old geezers. My presesnce here was not about *you*. LOL. I bet that’s shocking for you to read, no?
....Have you thought that maybe you are the social oddchild? If like here in Tampa, most men at these gatherings are happily married. While none are close friends (I don't play golf with any of them and I do not meet any for a drink), most men are professionals or successful in business, and that alone is enough for a polite conversation that usually reveals more about the depth of a man....
Ted Bundy was a professional and Mike Conroy was pretty successful in the early part of his venture, I understand...but what's your point? That you find commonalities with these men because you believe you're as much a professional and successful as they are? You see what I mean? Your knee jerk reaction to things is to stuff money out there again to measure your relevance...
... Whether the man is a nerd, an old fart, a brash young man, ugly, fat, athletic.... it is all good....
I agree. Differences and distinctions are what make our world an interesting place to exist on.
... I will admit that I am the type who starts conversations with strangers on elevators rather than watch the floor numbers light up (and it annoys my RW wife who says Russians don't do this)....
Not me. I would rather converse with my wife. Another example why I know I'm different than you. Your wife is right btw. RMs will likely do as I, which is likely the reason why when all is said and done, RWs would much rather be with RMs - given the chance and level opportunities. Although, wifey tells me she's stuck like glue with this *insolent one*. ;)
....So why your repeated insistence about being better than most? Are you trying to be the "Who it is" of RWG. I consider it pretense. Yes, all of us are different and have pursued this endeavor in our own unique way. Yet when you take a close look, all of us put our trousers on one leg at a time. None of us are better than the other, just different.
You really sound a lot like those characters who had long since passed their time and no one pays attention to their silly tired old banters anymore, Gator. Pitiful and quite pathetic actually.
Let's see...I’m impudent, arrogant (delusional to boot), social odd child, pretentious, etc…how fitting for the subject if this was your contribution to the thread. You just visibly exemplified why I believe I am different to the those I defined a typical *career* MOBer. You can’t challenge the post – you attack the poster.
Touche.
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+100!!!!!! :clapping:
Dude-
How's the fiancee/filing doing these days? You are still engaged to that gal, aren't you?
Also, when folks like you quote an entire post and put in those numerals complete with a clapper, does that mean you're the type of guy so clueless you just wait in the shadows for someone who can actually put together a thought because you can't for some reason?
That's pretty creepy, dude.. and I suppose I have another entry with you as a typical MOBer sampler...
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Also, when folks like you quote an entire post and put in those numerals complete with a clapper, does that mean you're the type of guy so clueless you just wait in the shadows for someone who can actually put together a thought because you can't for some reason?
Not been around Reddit.com , slashdot.org, or other forums, eh?
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:popcorn:
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So why your repeated insistence about being better than most? Are you trying to be the "Who it is" of RWG. I consider it pretense. Yes, all of us are different and have pursued this endeavor in our own unique way. Yet when you take a close look, all of us put our trousers on one leg at a time. None of us are better than the other, just different.
That sums it up nicely :applaud: I really don't understand the need the boost one's ego on an anonymous forum.
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That sums it up nicely :applaud: I really don't understand the need the boost one's ego on an anonymous forum.
It is good you edited your post because your original post suggest we're all the same and I was going to post how hard you tried before to declare yourself for being different because you supposedly met your wife through singles. ru - and that for some reason you believe doesn't make you part of the typical MOBers...LOL.
But you are...with your own admission, you couldn't get a date at home, Misha. You should've laid-off the donuts, dude.
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It is good you edited your post because your original post suggest we're all the same and I was going to post how hard you tried before to declare yourself for being different because you supposedly met your wife through singles. ru - and that for some reason you believe doesn't make you part of the typical MOBers...LOL.
But you are...with your own admission, you couldn't get a date at home, Misha. You should've laid-off the donuts, dude.
You are proving my point. You clearly have a lot of repressed anger if you have such a pressing need to put down people you have never met IMVHO.
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You are proving my point. You clearly have a lot of repressed anger if you have such a pressing need to put down people you have never met IMVHO.
Put down people?!? You're the one who downed those sweets, man. All by your lonesome self. I had nothing to do with that.
And repressed anger? LOL...I'm at the BATMAN and you're the FATMAN. So how can that be?
You should've opted for those diet donuts, dude. The ones with holes in the middle.... :P
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Well, this has taken an interesting turn... somebody pass the bong and doritos.. that'll send the thread in a more congenial direction.. perhaps will make less sense to the lookers-on but we'll all understand it.. :P
Sorry to leave the thread hanging.. I shall return shortly..
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[size=78%]And repressed anger? LOL...I'm at the BATMAN and you're the FATMAN. So how can that be?[/size]
You should've opted for those diet donuts, dude. The ones with holes in the middle.... :P
Feel free to continue, I refuse to wallow in the muck.
As for the question, I do not consider myself to be an "average MOBer" but I do not see myself as superior either. We all strive for happiness in our own unique ways and I neither expect nor want people to conform to my standards or my norms. To each his or her own...
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Feel free to continue, I refuse to wallow in the muck...
Well, then that's pretty ironic if not hypocritical, isn't it?
Daveman orchestrated the topic and invited me to respond. When I did, MOBers like you, Gator, Hammer and the folks above this thread, who seemed to have take offense to my response - levied an attack at me instead of challenging the post. So, technically, you aren't wallowing in the muck - YOU and others like YOU - ARE the muck. Which, given the gist of the topic - is another reeason WHY I believe I'm different than the whole lot of you. :P
...As for the question, I do not consider myself to be an "average MOBer" but I do not see myself as superior either. We all strive for happiness in our own unique ways and I neither expect nor want people to conform to my standards or my norms. To each his or her own...
See above.
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I am not an "average MOBer" simply because I am not average at anything.
How do I know this?
My Mother told me so.
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GQ,
I will summarize my post by stating you have reached a new level of impudence...
... So why your repeated insistence about being better than most? Are you trying to be the "Who it is" of RWG. I consider it pretense. Yes, all of us are different and have pursued this endeavor in our own unique way. Yet when you take a close look, all of us put our trousers on one leg at a time. None of us are better than the other, just different.
I'll up the ante, +101 Gator !!!!!! :)
Good thread Dave.
Perhaps its title should have been "What is a cynical MOB'er" ?
Then GQ's response would make a lot more sense.
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How about we name the most cynical people who frequent this forum.
Here is my list
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Well, then that's pretty ironic if not hypocritical, isn't it?
Daveman orchestrated the topic and invited me to respond. When I did, MOBers like you, Gator, Hammer and the folks above this thread, who seemed to have take offense to my response - levied an attack at me instead of challenging the post. So, technically, you aren't wallowing in the muck - YOU and others like YOU - ARE the muck. Which, given the gist of the topic - is another reeason WHY I believe I'm different than the whole lot of you. :P
I suspect most of us agree you are definitely different............... but not in any superior way!
See above.
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I don't think GQ is cynical. IMHO, there is truth in what he posts. Where I think he differs from most posters is first, he comes from a country where he has seen Westerners exploit the economic disparities to their advantage, so he knows what they do, and for the locals, how it feels. Second, a common "theme", so to speak, in GQ's posts is he is married to a woman, not a Russian. He is more interested in the former. Most of you guys don't get that, and I doubt you ever will.
I applaud GQ for encouraging his wife to step outside her comfort zone and obtain a good education and build a real career. Most of the men here have not done that. Exceptions - pitbull's hubby (who doesn't post here), Muzh, and ML. There may be others I have missed but the point is, they are the minority. It takes an exceptionally confident man to encourage his wife to have her own independence, particularly at a level where she no longer needs him economically. That is how GQ is different, at least, in how I read his posts.
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After spending significant time in Ukraine, the foreigners I seen coming over there would not be people I wanted to associate with. I am talking in generalities. I also met some cool guys.
Look at how the MOB agencies market their services. It shouldn't be far fetched that the people who take the agency bait would not be people of the highest quality. Generally speaking of course.
I would also want to distance myself from those types of guys.
I don't necessarily believe the membership here portrays what I saw. I can't imagine they would stick around with all the "real" talk.
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I would also want to distance myself from those types of guys.
I would want to distance myself from me, too. But I can never seem to get away!
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Well, then that's pretty ironic ...
In your case GQ I wish you were being ironic, i. e. conveying a message opposite of the literal meaning of your words. Your words were insulting and clearly you meant to insult.
If anyone is being insolent it is YOU for attacking the messenger instead of the message....
OK, let's examine your message about MOBers. I agree with your list except for 1, 7, 15 and 17.
No. 1 - I see nothing wrong in trying again provided one has learned from the first endeavor. In my case I went back to the woman whom I wanted to marry in the first place.
No. 7 & 15 - I see no need to volunteer that a man is on a VM trip. Such will be obvious to the smart RW without rubbing her nose in it. If she asks, do not lie.
No. 17 - I would not call it a sacrifice, but they are indeed "home" (their family, friends, connections, job, language and culture for a strange land). It certainly is not a sacrifice to the desperate woman who wants out of the FSU. However, the sincere RW knows there will be some adjustment problems. And the man should mentor her and facilitate her.
I must plead ignorance to your No. 12 because I have not yet experimented with that form of anal sex. ;D
In summary, you and I are in 80 % agreement without any elaboration. Maybe we would be even closer in agreement with further discussion.
You’re saying those things I mentioned never happen and you’ve never seen any of
these situations at all?
Of course they have happened, especially the sending of money and falling in love with a photo. I inferred that you were declaring the typical MOBer does many of these "No No's." I just don't see that. Or doing only one makes a man a typical MOBer?
Let me make it clear that I do not claim to know the typical MOBer. For sure, I have not had the opportunity to analyze all MOBers at a couple of agencies. I have met a few while traveling through the FSU (and I am not shy to probe). Most seemed like decent people. I have read the posts of many MOBers at RWD and RWG before that. Yes, some made some stupid mistakes and some were reaching oout of their league (a point you did not mention GQ), but most seemed sincere. And I have met personally 15-20 AM and their RW wives. That is not a small sample size, but it can not be considered statistically representative. OTOH, I doubt that GQ's sample is much larger, especially when he refuses serious conversations.
One point that supports GQ's claim is that some RW said I was a welcome relief compared to other AM who had traveled through. Anyone who knows me would realize that those other men must have been real bad. Either that or those sweet RW were flirting with me.
...I met you in Moscow in the middle of your WMVM trip....
Chalk that puppy up for the few mistakes I made in my life.
How interesting. I knew of your trip and I thought you would welcome a little break one afternoon to meet two RW who did not have a horse in the race, namely Irina aka as the famous "Donna Pedro" and my Moscow woman. I thought both tried to help you that day. And you thought it was a mistake. No wonder you did not buy a round of pivo after I bought the first round.
And for years afterwards I had nothing but praise for you. It just seems that in the past couple of years you have inexplicably become sour. Having hot flashes? And it comes across IMO that you are projecting yourself as superior, never wrong except for accepting my invitation to meet in Moscow. I abhor people who think themselves superior. It surprises me too about you GQ because I know you are an intelligent man.
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Okay, back for a minute... this thread really isn't supposed to be about GQ, but rather commonalities, yet it does provide opportunity to further explore some aspects...
I don't think GQ is cynical. IMHO, there is truth in what he posts. Where I think he differs from most posters is first, he comes from a country where he has seen Westerners exploit the economic disparities to their advantage, so he knows what they do, and for the locals, how it feels. Second, a common "theme", so to speak, in GQ's posts is he is married to a woman, not a Russian. He is more interested in the former. Most of you guys don't get that, and I doubt you ever will.
And still... the result remains identical, which is part of the discussion. He (and others) made a trip(s) for the purpose of meeting FSU ladies. He met FSU ladies -- developed a relationship with a much younger woman, and transplanted her here in the USA. At some point, with the age gap, he will also become an old geezer while she's much younger. What difference does it make if a man marries a younger woman as an old geezer or grows into the old geyser role? Again, the end result remains the same - they become that couple held in disdain by some for how they look together. Will he suddenly wake up one day and tell her, "hey, I'm an old geyser now, you must leave because I cannot bear the though of you wasting your youthful time with old wrinkled dick pamper ass.. Go forth young geyser challenged one! I Shan't stand in your way.. nay! Leave before you're youth is sucked dry by my geyserness!" ;D
Of course I get the difference between Russian and Woman, but I don't see a need or even a possibility to separate the two. I'm married to my wife. She's my family. She is a woman and she is Ukrainian - the latter making up a good portion of what has molded her into the wonderful and unique person she is.
I applaud GQ for encouraging his wife to step outside her comfort zone and obtain a good education and build a real career. Most of the men here have not done that. Exceptions - pitbull's hubby (who doesn't post here), Muzh, and ML. There may be others I have missed but the point is, they are the minority. It takes an exceptionally confident man to encourage his wife to have her own independence, particularly at a level where she no longer needs him economically. That is how GQ is different, at least, in how I read his posts.
Add to the list TurboGuy, jb, Catzenmouse and a few others whose usernames escape me at the moment... Yes, these are all cool guys .... who are simply doing the right thing. There's no pedestal, in my book, for doing the right thing. You just do it.. The laudable behavior goes to the ladies for taking an opportunity presented and running with it.. achieving whatever dream..
Not all women have such lofty goals.. are they *less* for wanting to be homemakers? Or are their husbands schmucks for not kicking their butts out the door to go back to school?
What I find odd is the amount of seeming contempt - in the group where, while personalities obviously differ, all are basically doing the same things -- and are viewed the same by outsiders anyway.
And to another note...
As far as MOB'er... I, honest to god, have no idea what it means or if it actually has any meaning at all. I can't answer your question FP because I honestly don't have a clue. MOB is a cutesy label placed by others... MOB'er, I guess, is placed by those others upon all of us. For members here to become involved in the labeling seems to me somewhat similar to two white guys pointing at each other screaming "Honkey!"
Anyway, this thread wasn't intended to be the assassination of Ferdinand...
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I was under the (perhaps mistaken) impression that a MOB'r was anyone that dated/married a foreigner that they met on a dating web site or took a tour.
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And still... the result remains identical, which is part of the discussion. He (and others) made a trip(s) for the purpose of meeting FSU ladies. He met FSU ladies -- developed a relationship with a much younger woman, and transplanted her here in the USA. At some point, with the age gap, he will also become an old geezer while she's much younger. What difference does it make if a man marries a younger woman as an old geezer or grows into the old geyser role?
A long marriage, for one.
Of course I get the difference between Russian and Woman, but I don't see a need or even a possibility to separate the two. I'm married to my wife. She's my family. She is a woman and she is Ukrainian - the latter making up a good portion of what has molded her into the wonderful and unique person she is.
She likely would've been the same unique and wonderful person had she born across the street from where you grew up. The point is, you are living with a living soul. Not a Ukrainian soul. Not, at some, point, an American soul. Just a soul, one hopes, of an evolved level.
Add to the list TurboGuy, jb, Catzenmouse and a few others whose usernames escape me at the moment... Yes, these are all cool guys .... who are simply doing the right thing. There's no pedestal, in my book, for doing the right thing. You just do it.. The laudable behavior goes to the ladies for taking an opportunity presented and running with it.. achieving whatever dream..
It's not about putting GQ on a pedestal. It is the exception, rather than the norm, though.
Not all women have such lofty goals.. are they *less* for wanting to be homemakers? Or are their husbands schmucks for not kicking their butts out the door to go back to school?
I have never met a woman without school age children who wants to be a homemaker. I think that is more a man's desire than a woman's.
What I find odd is the amount of seeming contempt - in the group where, while personalities obviously differ, all are basically doing the same things -- and are viewed the same by outsiders anyway.
Do you really believe outsiders really care at all?
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I applaud GQ for encouraging his wife to step outside her comfort zone and obtain a good education and build a real career. Most of the men here have not done that.
It is the exception, rather than the norm, though.
Is this based on facts or your intuition. This would make for an interesting RWD survey/poll. In that way we would have facts rather than guesses.
Most RW wives are young, so such a poll needs to recognize 1) students and 2) homemakers. When raising my two sons, their mother elected to cease her speech therapy position and stay home. She said that being a homemaker was more difficult and tiring than earning a paycheck.
I know of several working RW here in Tampa. Yesterday, doctor had a nurse who happened to be a RW; she explained laboratory results to my wife and translated for the doctor. When preparing our prenup, my wife's attorney had an assistant who is a RW, and today she is a licensed attorney. This past weekend in San Francisco, I asked the concierge for tour recommendations and then learned she is from Vladivostok. Two weeks ago I had lunch at a cafe and noticed that the manager is a RW. During my short marriage to a Moscow woman, she had prepared herself for the real estate business.
Russians are everywhere in the work place! Us American men are not holding them back. It would be impossible if we tried. We would be run over if we got in their way. This zeal for work seems to come naturally to a woman who has the sense of adventure to marry a relative stranger and move to his strange land.
Sadly, there are a couple of cases here in Tampa where the RW wife does not yet drive a car. Whose fault is that?
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Interesting points... glad you're back posting... ;D
A long marriage, for one.
And??
I don't mean to come across as shortchanging a long marriage.. but long, recent, whatever, how does that change the probability that some will have the same opinion of him that he now has of others?
It doesn't matter whether he cares.. I don't either for that matter. It's still a similar situation in the moment.
She likely would've been the same unique and wonderful person had she born across the street from where you grew up. The point is, you are living with a living soul. Not a Ukrainian soul. Not, at some, point, an American soul. Just a soul, one hopes, of an evolved level.
And what if we don't believe in souls? ;D What you write is a highly romantic notion and sounds wonderful. But, what does it really mean? Yes, at the end of the day we're just a man and woman together, but while there is future growth both separate and together, there's no way to remove the prior grooming embedded within our individuality.
Plus, try as I might, the best I can do is a decent Dracula imitation (bleh.. bleh bleh!).. she has the real deal! :D
Actually, I think we are merely splitting semantic hairs.
It's not about putting GQ on a pedestal. It is the exception, rather than the norm, though.
Is it truly that exceptional? One of the most written about topics is the expense after her arrival - which always includes the cost of education as a large portion of her adaptation and pursuing her chosen career profession. ???? Is it really all talk?
I have never met a woman without school age children who wants to be a homemaker. I think that is more a man's desire than a woman's.
I don't know. I dated one who wanted to stay at home and raise kids, take care of the family, etc. That's one out of five or 20% in my statistically insignificant sampling.
Do you really believe outsiders really care at all?
Yeah, they care enough to talk about it.. what's more important is - do we care? Nah, I can honestly say that I couldn't possible care less. I don't want my wife's feelings to be hurt by an idiot, so care in that regard - about her.. but if that happens I'll simply eliminate some trash from the earth.. >:D
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How about we name the most cynical people who frequent this forum.
Here is my list
Had you tried to name simply 'the cynical people who frequent this forum', then your list might have been valid.
But since you added 'most' to your description, you must have at least one person on your list. :)
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I don't mean to come across as shortchanging a long marriage.. but long, recent, whatever, how does that change the probability that some will have the same opinion of him that he now has of others?
Because long marriages are not built on the superficiality of a pretty face, which can be replaced easily with the next pretty face, or the size of a wallet, which usually can be replaced with an equal, or better wallet.
It doesn't matter whether he cares.. I don't either for that matter. It's still a similar situation in the moment.
Nope.
And what if we don't believe in souls? ;D What you write is a highly romantic notion and sounds wonderful. But, what does it really mean? Yes, at the end of the day we're just a man and woman together, but while there is future growth both separate and together, there's no way to remove the prior grooming embedded within our individuality.
So call it the "essence" of who that person is. Anyone who has seen his/her infant born, and witnessed the first days of life sees that they come into the world with certain personalities. They are honed, or even pierced, with age and experience, but the essence of who that person is remains unchanged.
Is it truly that exceptional? One of the most written about topics is the expense after her arrival - which always includes the cost of education as a large portion of her adaptation and pursuing her chosen career profession. ???? Is it really all talk?
Yes, it is. How many men here can post that their wives developed independent careers with his full support and even prodding? How many RW have the corner office? That is quite exceptional, even among AW, let alone an FSUW who came to the U.S. on a K-1/K-3.
I don't know. I dated one who wanted to stay at home and raise kids, take care of the family, etc. That's one out of five or 20% in my statistically insignificant sampling.
Even after the children were grown? I've never met a woman who wanted to do that. Most of the SAHM I have met want to work, at least part time, once their children are in school.
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Because long marriages are not built on the superficiality of a pretty face, which can be replaced easily with the next pretty face, or the size of a wallet, which usually can be replaced with an equal, or better wallet.
And?? still doesn't change the way the situation will be viewed...
Nope.
Yep. Absolutely, positively, without question or reasonable debate - is - I D E N T I C A L (nyah!)
So call it the "essence" of who that person is. Anyone who has seen his/her infant born, and witnessed the first days of life sees that they come into the world with certain personalities. They are honed, or even pierced, with age and experience, but the essence of who that person is remains unchanged.
We are born with certain genetic inheritances some of which are believed to affect personality traits, however, character traits are learned. They may be influenced by genetics to a certain degree, however, if a baby is raised with thieves, thievery becomes proper and the acceptable norm.
While being born in Ukraine is not the be all and end all of "her", that influence cannot be discounted as a portion of the whole.
Yes, it is. How many men here can post that their wives developed independent careers with his full support and even prodding?
Maybe.. but how many just do it without talking about it? It may be exceptional. I would hope it isn't. However, there's not enough real information to make that case.
How many RW have the corner office? That is quite exceptional, even among AW, let alone an FSUW who came to the U.S. on a K-1/K-3.
Now were back to "The laudable behavior goes to the ladies for taking an opportunity presented and running with it.. achieving whatever dream.. "
Even after the children were grown? I've never met a woman who wanted to do that. Most of the SAHM I have met want to work, at least part time, once their children are in school.
Of course I don't know. We didn't make it quite that far.. ;D I don't recall if we ever had that specific conversation. Probably not. But it's a decent topic to discuss for guys and ladies contemplating such a situation. Any situation is subject to change though as families or individuals don't reside in a predetermined vacuum. I we were to have married, and if she were to have waited until after the kids are grown, I'd probably be dead and gone or drooling into my Gerber's without much opinion on the matter anyway.. she could do whatever and my response would be something along the lines of "bleh.. bleh bleh!"
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I would want to distance myself from me, too. But I can never seem to get away!
Kinda like a monkey on your back? :P
(damn, sometimes even I can come up with a decent one.. every now and then... mostly then)
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And?? still doesn't change the way the situation will be viewed...
Sure it does. It is not the age gap people view with disdain. It is the reasons behind that - buying youth/trading youth for access to cash. That can't really be said of a long term union, can it?
How many large age gaps (let's say, 20 years or more) on this forum have been successful - I mean, passed the 14 years together mark? I think Dan's is the only one.
We are born with certain genetic inheritances some of which are believed to affect personality traits, however, character traits are learned. They may be influenced by genetics to a certain degree, however, if a baby is raised with thieves, thievery becomes proper and the acceptable norm.
Well, if that's the case, then I would recommend everyone stay out of Ukraine. And, I say that as someone with more Ukrainian blood than my Ukrainian born spouse.
While being born in Ukraine is not the be all and end all of "her", that influence cannot be discounted as a portion of the whole.
I think overall, it's a minimal influence.
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In your case GQ I wish you were being ironic, i. e. conveying a message opposite of the literal meaning of your words. Your words were insulting and clearly you meant to insult....
If the shoe fits...
...OK, let's examine your message about MOBers. I agree with your list except for 1, 7, 15 and 17....
Finally.
...No. 1 - I see nothing wrong in trying again provided one has learned from the first endeavor. In my case I went back to the woman whom I wanted to marry in the first place...
Then maybe do a bit of soul searching...how many times did you state how you should've married someone else and how the cost of your divorce rivaled that of your attorney's fees?
What a nutty thing to say about a woman YOU praised/courted for 6 years running and then marry...do you think this way with your present wife now?
...No. 7 & 15 - I see no need to volunteer that a man is on a VM trip. Such will be obvious to the smart RW without rubbing her nose in it. If she asks, do not lie....
How convenient. Must I remind what you previously advocated in doing Gator? *If she doesn't ask, don't tell*. Isn't deception a another form of lying? It is to me and obviously not with you.... It has nothing to do with being a VM or a VO. Matter of fact *VO* with back-ups is even worst as far as I'm concerned.
Starting a relationship with shades of lies and deception is hardly a healthy way to start one, don't you think?
...No. 17 - I would not call it a sacrifice, but they are indeed "home" (their family, friends, connections, job, language and culture for a strange land). It certainly is not a sacrifice to the desperate woman who wants out of the FSU. However, the sincere RW knows there will be some adjustment problems. And the man should mentor her and facilitate her....
*Sacrifice* is the exact word used by typical MOBers. Your attempt to re-define exactly what they said is pretty weak.
There was a RW member here before and her name was *Ooppps* (something like that) who laughed at the notion when MOBers speak in terms...she thought too that was hysterical.
My definition of a desperate woman are those who latches on men who spoke a language they do not understand yet married him anyway. For what? Passport? $$$? Do you know anyone like that?
... I must plead ignorance to your No. 12 because I have not yet experimented with that form of anal sex.
I'm sure sex is something that hasn't happened in a while. Add senility to that, then I can see why the ignorance.
...In summary, you and I are in 80 % agreement without any elaboration. Maybe we would be even closer in agreement with further discussion....
Obviously not.
...Of course they have happened, especially the sending of money and falling in love with a photo. I inferred that you were declaring the typical MOBer does many of these "No No's." I just don't see that. Or doing only one makes a man a typical MOBer?
I submit a man doing one of the things I stated upthread classifies him a typical MOBer. 'sway it is...
...Let me make it clear that I do not claim to know the typical MOBer. For sure, I have not had the opportunity to analyze all MOBers at a couple of agencies. I have met a few while traveling through the FSU (and I am not shy to probe). Most seemed like decent people. I have read the posts of many MOBers at RWD and RWG before that. Yes, some made some stupid mistakes and some were reaching oout of their league (a point you did not mention GQ), but most seemed sincere. And I have met personally 15-20 AM and their RW wives. That is not a small sample size, but it can not be considered statistically representative. OTOH, I doubt that GQ's sample is much larger, especially when he refuses serious conversations....
Well, I don't need to be a coy and agree with that statement. LOL. I am saying things matter of factly. I am on record with that, too. Anyone can take stock of the couples in one of these AM/FSUW couple gatherings everyone will soon attend or have attended. I don't need to lie about what I have seen. The majority of the men involved in this pursuit epitomize the typical MOBer...social rejects and old geezers.
...One point that supports GQ's claim is that some RW said I was a welcome relief compared to other AM who had traveled through. Anyone who knows me would realize that those other men must have been real bad. Either that or those sweet RW were flirting with me....
While in the company of some fine wine and exquisite dining, Gator? LOL.
....I knew of your trip and I thought you would welcome a little break one afternoon to meet two RW who did not have a horse in the race, namely Irina aka as the famous "Donna Pedro" and my Moscow woman. I thought both tried to help you that day. And you thought it was a mistake....
Ahhhh...How so cowardly of you Gator. Interesting. Since when did Irina came to the discussion here? Is that your submission because you're running out of anything else to say? Pretty darn weak. tsk, tsk, tsk...
...No wonder you did not buy a round of pivo after I bought the first round...
You've gone senile old man. I offered and you refused. I knew then that would come back to haunt me one way or another. Would you like your dollar now? LOL.
...And for years afterwards I had nothing but praise for you. It just seems that in the past couple of years you have *inexplicably become sour*.
Well, that's a load of BS. LOL.
...Having hot flashes? And it comes across IMO that you are projecting yourself as superior, never wrong except for accepting my invitation to meet in Moscow. I abhor people who think themselves superior. It surprises me too about you GQ because I know you are an intelligent man...
You are just as silly and insecure as Misha..Both of you obviously suffer from an inferiority complex. I'm glad you abhor anyone who *thinks* they're superior. The only question now is, how can you live with yourself?
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Sure it does. It is not the age gap people view with disdain. It is the reasons behind that - buying youth/trading youth for access to cash. That can't really be said of a long term union, can it?
How many large age gaps (let's say, 20 years or more) on this forum have been successful - I mean, passed the 14 years together mark? I think Dan's is the only one.
I personally agree with you... but... we know more about their situation... and how would THEY know? It would in all probability, because of appearance, be assumed to be that stereotypical "buying youth/trading youth for access to cash."
We are talking about impressions. From what was posted, he looked at who was there and decided he couldn't relate to any of them, as far as we know, based on how they appeared. Perhaps there is more to it. My, his, any of our situation would be no different when we become geyser aged to those who would make assumptions on appearances.
Well, if that's the case, then I would recommend everyone stay out of Ukraine. And, I say that as someone with more Ukrainian blood than my Ukrainian born spouse.
MOH'er!!!
I think overall, it's a ... influence.
ahhhhhh HA! You admit it! :ROFL:
So, on a more serious note.. would you say this "buying youth/trading youth for access to cash." is naturally assumed? possibly the core definition of MOB'er??
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So call it the "essence" of who that person is. Anyone who has seen his/her infant born, and witnessed the first days of life sees that they come into the world with certain personalities. They are honed, or even pierced, with age and experience, but the essence of who that person is remains unchanged.
Agree with everything Boethius said, and this is especially true! "Nurture" can influence the "nature", "essence" of who the person is only so much. The essence truly remains unchainged and at the end of the day it doesn't matter whether you are with AW, RW, UW, or any other W - it really only matters what their true essence is.
I can tell you that when I look back at my childhood/upbringing I should have grown up a totally different person. I am what I was born though :D
I remember when an old and very wise professor I worked with told me (after I announced my pregnancy): "Kids are like chocolates from the assorted chocolates box, you never know which kind you're going to get" - and told me about his three kids, now adults, who have entirely different essence even though raised exactly the same. He said - they are born what they are/will be and there is only so much you can do to change/hone that. He was sooo right!!
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I believe GQ was responding to posts, not appearances.
Yes, I do think the general impression for those that actually form an impression, both in the West and in Ukraine, in particular, is that men go there to "buy" wives they'd have no chance of attracting in the West. On a personal note, however, I personally believe most people are so concerned with their own lives, they don't really care about the lives of those who are not near and dear to them.
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Bo,
Your choice of words and characterization of the motives for men going to Ukraine to "buy" a wife is insulting and misleading. Men go to Ukraine and other FSU countries because they cannot find what they are wanting in the US.
To say that they cannot attract what they want is misleading. The truth is that they are in very short supply! Any hot, single woman in the US is already so sought after that they already know their worth and can pick and choose who they want to date/marry. There are so few of them, that the supply cannot meet the demand.
The wonderful characteristics of many FSU women are what they want and that is why they go where the supply is. It is not only beauty men are after, but the MOB agencies exploit that characteristic as well.
Perhaps if you rephrase your comment, we might be closer to agreement.
It is true that the women often marry Americans to improve their lifestyles. So what? That applies to all kinds of people. People move and change jobs to improve their lifestyles. It is a natural human desire.
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How many large age gaps (let's say, 20 years or more) on this forum have been successful - I mean, passed the 14 years together mark? I think Dan's is the only one.
A marriage that lasts 14 years is now considered successful? 13 years is a failure but 15 years is a success. lol
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The average number of years a couple is married before divorce (first marriage) is 14 years. Beat that, and you've beaten the odds.
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The average number of years a couple is married before divorce (first marriage) is 14 years. Beat that, and you've beaten the odds.
I always knew you were a romantic. ;D
Lot's of guys are on their second and third marriages. How long do they need to sweat it out to win the marriage game?
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Bo,
Your choice of words and characterization of the motives for men going to Ukraine to "buy" a wife is insulting and misleading. Men go to Ukraine and other FSU countries because they cannot find what they are wanting in the US.
To say that they cannot attract what they want is misleading. The truth is that they are in very short supply! Any hot, single woman in the US is already so sought after that they already know their worth and can pick and choose who they want to date/marry. There are so few of them, that the supply cannot meet the demand.
The wonderful characteristics of many FSU women are what they want and that is why they go where the supply is. It is not only beauty men are after, but the MOB agencies exploit that characteristic as well.
Perhaps if you rephrase your comment, we might be closer to agreement.
It is true that the women often marry Americans to improve their lifestyles. So what? That applies to all kinds of people. People move and change jobs to improve their lifestyles. It is a natural human desire.
Reread what I posted. This is the impression of most individuals. I am not posting my personal opinion.
OlgaH once posted a link to an AFA social in Russia, which was from a Russian forum. I translated one of the comments, which made the post above look kind, in comparison.
In a country of over 300 million men can't find even one lone woman who is what they want? Sorry, I don't believe that. It's just a justification.
As for AW, they are not in short supply. But, they are emancipated, and they have options most UW do not have. They also have a strong judicial system and support systems to turn to if they face harassment, discrimination, domestic violence, or sexual assault, and those are still lacking in Ukraine. There are not many AW who would choose men decades older. Yes, it happens, but it is not routine.
WRT the "MOB industry", the "characteristics" of FSUW are generally a marketing tool, as are the representations on their sites that FSUW "don't care about a man's age, or the shape of his body, etc." Women are women world over. One over forty poster here posted his experience with a service provider telling him, with a wink, that "the age of consent in Ukraine is 17". Now, I'll assume he was not the only client who heard that line. So, are men looking for these "characteristics" in teen aged Ukrainian girls? The ones in such short supply, including, presumably, beauty, in like aged American girls?
The MOB industry is just that, an industry, fueling fantasies and making money be leveraging economic disparity. There is a reason it is dying in Russia, which has a GDP almost double that of Ukraine. Unless, of course, one is to believe that, just as with AW, UW possess these "characteristics" and "beauty" in far greater numbers than do RW.
If people want to marry for money, or greater opportunity, I don't really care. Their lives, to live as they wish. But from what I have observed, relations built on sand don't tend to last, particularly when the foundation experiences a little shake.
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I always knew you were a romantic. ;D
Lot's of guys are on their second and third marriages. How long do they need to sweat it out to win the marriage game?
I used to be. But reading a lot of the vomit inducing drivel on this forum knocked it out of me. I am, though, married to the last romantic in the world.
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My, my, my,
We've been percolating along, haven't we?
I don't have anything negative to say or anything to refute so you probably won't want to read this.
But I was watching the other day, an interracial couple and was thinking about the obstacles that they faced. In my social circles, some of these marriages are the norm and some are not. It depends on which race and how different they are. There doesn't seem to be any ostracism for an inter racially married couple. Some of my best friends have gone that route and they are more affluent and better educated than many of their same race based counterparts.
Where am I going with this? We take exception to those people who do ostracize an interracial couple, yet find it convenient to highlight age differences between consenting adults. Notice I said adults. I don't find many pre 25 year old women to have fully formed adult minds and I am certain most pre 25 year old men do not have them. I have known a few May/December romances. As stated above, sometimes they work, sometimes they don't. But the next time you consider one of these romances, consider that it is gauche if you are an enlightened individual to disdain an interracial marriage. Yet the same statistics seem to hold true for interracial marriages as hold true for age gap marriages. And the enlightened among us seem to frown upon them. Just a thought.
History is replete with younger women marrying older men. Many FSU women that I know will not consider marrying someone their own age. They feel that the risk of marriage failure is much greater marrying someone their own age. While I am a statistical sample of one, I have heard this from many women, for many years, even while I was still one of those under 25 year olds mentioned above.
Cheers!
-j
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I used to be. But reading a lot of the vomit inducing drivel on this forum knocked it out of me.
You should leave if this forum has such a negative impact on you.
I am, though, married to the last romantic in the world.
Maybe because he doesn't participate on this forum. :P
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At the end of the day, it is a question of expanding the dating pool. Some people are more willing to venture farther afield than others and this applies to women as well as men. Some women will never date any man outside their neighbourhood let alone the country or continent. The same is true for some men. Are they more or less losers than others? Some people marry someone they met in school, people they knew since childhood. Are they less losers than those who met people while going to university or later in life?
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My, my, my,
We've been percolating along, haven't we?
Me or GQ? For me, uh, no. You evidently are unfamiliar with my posts. Please also note my tagline.
But the next time you consider one of these romances, consider that it is gauche if you are an enlightened individual to disdain an interracial marriage. Yet the same statistics seem to hold true for interracial marriages as hold true for age gap marriages. And the enlightened among us seem to frown upon them. Just a thought.
Again, read what I actually posted.
History is replete with younger women marrying older men. Many FSU women that I know will not consider marrying someone their own age. They feel that the risk of marriage failure is much greater marrying someone their own age. While I am a statistical sample of one, I have heard this from many women, for many years, even while I was still one of those under 25 year olds mentioned above.
I posted in the past about this. Tolstoy mocked such unions, and there is a painting in the Tretyakov Gallery which I also posted, entitled The Unequal Yoking/An Unequal Match (depending on your translation).
If the assertion of FSUW were accurate, then statistically, the age difference in first marriages between a bride and groom would not be a mere four years.
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If the assertion of FSUW were accurate, then statistically, the age difference in first marriages between a bride and groom would not be a mere four years.
Bo, do you have any data on foreign relationships. I was reading an article stating the divorce rate on foreign relationships were actually better. A lot better, in fact.
I will try to dig up the article but wondered if you had any stats that dictated foreign relationships ended 4 years or prior to fourteen or whatever your measuring stick for a successful marriage.
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I meant there is a four year age difference between an FSU bride and an FSU groom. Or, it was four years in Ukraine, and about the same in Russia, last time I looked. It may be as little as two years.
Dan commissioned a study, which is somewhere on the forum. Dave or Sandro could probably link it. At that time, there were almost no marriages at 14 years. I think there are a couple at that point now.
And, FTR, my personal measuring stick for a successful marriage is one that lasts to death.
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I meant there is a four year age difference between an FSU bride and an FSU groom. Or, it was four years in Ukraine, and about the same in Russia, last time I looked. It may be as little as two years.
Dan commissioned a study, which is somewhere on the forum. Dave or Sandro could probably link it. At that time, there were almost no marriages at 14 years. I think there are a couple at that point now.
Thanks, will try and find it.
And, FTR, my personal measuring stick for a successful marriage is one that lasts to death.
Ah, so there is a little romance left in you. You better run away before that gets sucked out! >:D
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...
Dan commissioned a study, which is somewhere on the forum. Dave or Sandro could probably link it. At that time, there were almost no marriages at 14 years. I think there are a couple at that point now.
http://www.goodwife.com/survey/xcultural_p01.html
the link is located (well above, but also) in the bottom menu, second column from the left, third option down.. just for future reference...
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I used to be. But reading a lot of the vomit inducing drivel on this forum knocked it out of me.
:ROFL:
I am, though, married to the last romantic in the world.
There is a time for cynicism, a time for logic, a time for debate, a time for jokes and a time for keeping it real... and a time for romantic dreams...
and as a Pisces, I'm the most intense romantic dreamer of all.. I just have to check it at the door when entering the forum.. that way it remains pristine for home use! :P
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Then maybe do a bit of soul searching...how many times did you state how you should've married someone else and how the cost of your divorce rivaled that of your attorney's fees?
What does the fact that I had a quick, minimal cost, and somewhat amicable divorce have to do with starting over? I started over for a 100 reasons, and money was none of them. You are making no sense here and several other places. I will attempt brevity, and then you can have the last word.
Must I remind what you previously advocated in doing Gator?
How did you wife feel inside when you changed the subject to tell her that you wanted to meet other women? Did you disclose everything, such as your need to belittle others.
*Sacrifice* is the exact word used by typical MOBers. Your attempt to re-define exactly what they said is pretty weak.
Actually, I defined it well. Why am I not surprised that a pampered college kid would feel no sacrifice but a sense of adventure.
My definition of a desperate woman are those who latches on men who spoke a
language they do not understand yet married him anyway. For what? Passport? $$$?
Do you know anyone like that?
No, especially if they decline a marriage offer because they do not want to leave Mother Russia. You are reaching now, so your bag of insults must be nearing empty.
I'm sure sex is something that hasn't happened in a while.
Based on your mood it is obvious that I am enjoying more real sex than you.
I submit a man doing one of the things I stated upthread classifies him a typical MOBer. 'sway it is...
One and out. Maybe I should review your list with more care. Nope.
Anyone can take stock of the couples in one of these AM/FSUW couple gatherings everyone will soon attend or have attended. The majority of the men involved in this pursuit epitomize the typical MOBer...social rejects and old geezers.
Why don't you go through the list of the most recent 30-40 RWD posters and identify who is a social reject, an old geezer, or in the minority. You don't have the balls, do you.
While in the company of some fine wine and exquisite dining, Gator? LOL.
In provincial cites? :ROFL: No, it usually happened over sushi, or stopping to smell the roses, or.....
Ahhhh...How so cowardly of you Gator. Interesting. Since when did
Irina came to the discussion here? Is that your submission because you're
running out of anything else to say? Pretty darn weak. tsk, tsk, tsk...
Again, this makes no sense. I offer facts. You respond with insults. You are dodging the fact that you inasmuch admitted to being a jerk to someone who tried to help you.
You've gone senile old man. I offered and you refused. I knew then that would
come back to haunt me one way or another. Would you like your dollar now? LOL.
I may forget some things, but not rudeness.
You are just as silly and insecure as Misha..Both of you obviously suffer from an inferiority complex.
Pot....kettle...black. Misha is a well adjusted man who adds a level of intellectual precision to RWD. And you have the gall to insult him repeatedly about his weight. That was low GQ, low, but not unexpected from a cockalorum.
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History is replete with younger women marrying older men. Many FSU women that I know will not consider marrying someone their own age. They feel that the risk of marriage failure is much greater marrying someone their own age.
I posted in the past about this. Tolstoy mocked such unions, and there is a painting in the Tretyakov Gallery which I also posted, entitled The Unequal Yoking/An Unequal Match (depending on your translation).
Tolstoy married a woman 16 years younger than himself. His marriage began to deteriorate with his increasingly radical beliefs. If he did mock marriages with large age gaps, he's a hypocrite but then again, he's extremely radical and it's best to assume his opinions are just that radical, not necessarily wise.
One can think this all strange and unethical but it's a fact in the FSU women, on average, will consider a larger age gap compared to their Western sister. Unwise? It's probably wise in the minds of those women to accept this as they deal with less financial troubles, immaturity, and drama than they would with a younger husband. Living in a place where BS is abundant, the last thing they need is additional BS from a husband and there's less risk, less BS, and more stability, including financially, with an older husband than a younger.
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Why don't you go through the list of the most recent 30-40 RWD posters and identify who is a social reject, an old geezer, or in the minority. You don't have the balls, do you.
That type of post would violate the TOS. It should not have even been suggested and if the challenge is taken the post will be deleted and this thread will be locked.
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...What does the fact that I had a quick, minimal cost, and somewhat amicable divorce have to do with starting over? I started over for a 100 reasons, and money was none of them. You are making no sense here and several other places. I will attempt brevity, and then you can have the last word....
Man, you are self-absorbed. The ink wasn't yet dry on that silly divorce and already you had nothing delicious to say about a woman you praised, courted for 6 years, then married, brings her here and her 2 child...for what? She did something you didn't like? Maybe cheated on you Gator? Got to her senses one day and wondered what's gotten into her for being married to a man 40 years her senior?
Gator! Wake the heck up!!! Regardless of the reason - can you honestly say you can blame her?
The divorce to the next marriage...how long was that again? 6 months...10? What was the matter, time ticking away too fast?
You see, to me, that's point numero uno on my list - horse trading.
...How did you wife feel inside when you changed the subject to tell her that you wanted to meet other women? Did you disclose everything, such as your need to belittle others...
There was no changing the subject. Nice try. I was upfront with her and the rest of the women that I planned on coming to Russia to meet them and give us all a chance to meet and speak in person.
I know this is a very alien concept to the likes of you MOBers, but it is what it is...
...Actually, I defined it well. Why am I not surprised that a pampered college kid would feel no sacrifice but a sense of adventure....
No you didn't. But nice try. The word used is *sacrifice*.
...No, especially if they decline a marriage offer because they do not want to leave Mother Russia. You are reaching now, so your bag of insults must be nearing empty....
No I'm not. Try again.
...Based on your mood it is obvious that I am enjoying more real sex than you...
LOL. Well, it's often said that the mind is the biggest sex organ. In your case, that too, will soon come to pass.... :(
...One and out. Maybe I should review your list with more care. Nope....
Oh yesssireee Bob!
...Why don't you go through the list of the most recent 30-40 RWD posters and identify who is a social reject, an old geezer, or in the minority. You don't have the balls, do you....
I thought I just did. I am on record Gator in case you are having difficulty reading these days. The MAJORITY of the AM/FSUW couples I have seen are comprised of men who are old geezers and social rejects. You want me to say that again?
....in provincial cites? :ROFL: No, it usually happened over sushi, or stopping to smell the roses, or.....
Ahhh...provincial cities...was that when you were living up in poor regions like Ukraine when you crashed and burned? Want to share that about yourself?
...Again, this makes no sense. I offer facts. You respond with insults. You are dodging the fact that you inasmuch admitted to being a jerk to someone who tried to help you. ...
Silly, silly old man. Read back to the posts once again tell me where I lumped Irina into the discussion. You can't, can you? Pitiful old man you are.
...I may forget some things, but not rudeness....
So you are either senile or just a two-bit liar. To me, you are both.
...Pot....kettle...black. Misha is a well adjusted man who adds a level of intellectual precision to RWD. And you have the gall to insult him repeatedly about his weight. That was low GQ, low, but not unexpected from a cockalorum.
Oh, such gallantry...you really touched me....LOL
A well-adjusted man can be social reject when it comes to dating.
Now, you can't blame women for not wanting to be seen, much less date, a fat man, can you? Or likely men 40 years their senior. So guys like you are MOBers and go out to places like the FSU, and in your case back again, where you can do whatever it is old geezers and social rejects think they can do in those places. I'm not being low for saying that. I'm merely stating facts. So bwalla!...the MOB.
Bottom line is, if this reads a bit painful, well surprise - it should. It's very ugly to read because what so many western men do in poor places of this world are just that, ugly.
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One can think this all strange and unethical but it's a fact in the FSU women, on average, will consider a larger age gap compared to their Western sister. Unwise? It's probably wise in the minds of those women to accept this as they deal with less financial troubles, immaturity, and drama than they would with a younger husband. Living in a place where BS is abundant, the last thing they need is additional BS from a husband and there's less risk, less BS, and more stability, including financially, with an older husband than a younger.
+1
Not only was I told this by my fiance, but from several other FSU women that I either dated or met through friends of friends. Bo will never accept this because they are not feminists and align with her way of thinking.
Another reason FSU women with young children make 'compromises' of age differences is because they want a good life for their children and cannot find it with FSUM that are available. It can be a win-win if both parties are compatible and in love.
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Quote from GQ
"I thought I just did. I am on record Gator in case you are having difficulty reading these days. The MAJORITY of the AM/FSUW couples I have seen are comprised of men who are old geezers and social rejects. You want me to say that again? "
Old geezers, maybe but social rejects? You are the one that is a social reject and every time you open your mouth you prove it. Having alienated most of the members already, perhaps it is time to put you on ignore!
MAJORITY of the AM/FSUW couples You are loosing it I am afraid.
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+1
Not only was I told this by my fiance, but from several other FSU women that I either dated or met through friends of friends. Bo will never accept this because they are not feminists and align with her way of thinking.
Another reason FSU women with young children make 'compromises' of age differences is because they want a good life for their children and cannot find it with FSUM that are available. It can be a win-win if both parties are compatible and in love.
Tolstoy was referring to marriages, then in fashion in Russia, of teen aged girls with men in their twilight years. Of course, I don't expect Billy to have read much Tolstoy.
cal, I have spoken to many UW, both in Ukraine and here. In Ukraine, most are divorced, with children. Here, most are married to UM. None of these women are looking for a foreign man. I have never, ever, heard any of them say what these women tell WM. It has zero to do with feminism. Now, you can believe whatever you are told, but it does not make it real. Go look at stats on the age of first marriage in Ukraine. The reality is, most UW marry UM. And, most of those UW are marrying UM of their own age. Yes, Billy's case is so representative. :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: A 17 year old telling a middle aged man that a man boy of her age doesn't meet a "stability" factor. That, I'd agree with. Most men under 30 are not ready for marriage.
As for your last statement, true. But, go read some of the RW forums for a while, and learn how many of those women, exactly, are in love with their Western husbands when they marry. Don't shoot the messenger. I'm just giving you the facts.
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Bo,
I am not arguing with you about UW marrying UM their own age (first marriage). Of course that is true. Perhaps I was not clear. I was talking about divorced UW with young children that will make compomises in age difference because they cannot find UM that will marry them when they have young children. Being the wonderful loving mothers that UW are, they will make compromises in order to have a better life for their children.
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OK, so let me ask you this. Knowing most of these women are not in love, why would a man "settle" for a woman who is with him for what he can provide, rather than for who he is?
I suppose it is not something I understand, both from personal experience and from my family. I just cannot fathom choosing to live with someone who was not madly, passionately, in love with me, and vice versa.
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On one side Bo argues that GQ should be congratulated for marrying 'a woman, not a Russian' (which I happen to agree with and congratulate him for).
Second, a common "theme", so to speak, in GQ's posts is he is married to a woman, not a Russian. He is more interested in the former. Most of you guys don't get that, and I doubt you ever will.
But on the other side she emphasizes the need/desire for a UW to marry a UM, not a foreigner.
I have spoken to many UW, both in Ukraine and here. In Ukraine, most are divorced, with children. Here, most are married to UM. None of these women are looking for a foreign man. I have never, ever, heard any of them say what these women tell WM. It has zero to do with feminism. Now, you can believe whatever you are told, but it does not make it real. Go look at stats on the age of first marriage in Ukraine. The reality is, most UW marry UM.
I'm not sure that these two points of view contradict, but if they don't, they come awfully close. Bo is so skilled with words that I think we found her arguing both sides. Not that I disrespect her for it. :clapping:
I was reading something that Eduard said not too long ago. He said that most FSUW who are not playing the MOB game do not consider marriage to a WM an option. Not because of lack of desire, but because of lack of opportunity. I happen to agree with him.
Love happens. If a match is correct, it does happen. We can rail at the mismatches that obviously were done in absence of love, but I still believe in the pounding heart, the poetry, the flowers, the silly grin and the deep down love. Ain't gonna settle for anything less. And love knows love. I will happily pass into the diaper set if it does not find me before then.
One of the things that happens on this forum, for those reading it, is that people try to over analyze the interaction between men and women. In the end, it's just a guy falling for a gal and a gal falling for a guy. Nothing else really matters.
It is remaining for us to either accept or condemn that interaction. Because nothing we say on here or do on here is going to make an ounce of difference to a couple in love. I hope it's the former.
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But on the other side she emphasizes the need/desire for a UW to marry a UM, not a foreigner.
No, not a need. My point was, it is a fact that most UW marry UM. Most RW marry RM. If you had the statistics of all the million or so marriages performed annually in either Ukraine or Russia, most would be between Ukrainian nationals or between Russian nationals. The number of FSUW marrying foreigners is fairly miniscule.
In the end, it's just a guy falling for a gal and a gal falling for a guy.
I wish I could believe that sentiment. But, my anecdotal observance, and the stories I read on forums, suggest otherwise. I'd put the ratio of love vs mercenary pairings at about 50/50.
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But, if one reads FSUW forums, many of them, even a slight majority, are not in love with their partners. They readily admit their partners do not know this. Hence, they are insincere. You can ask some of the FSUW who post here for confirmation of this.
Funniest damn thing. I have read one of those FSUW forums. Some day I'll tell you why..... They are hen parties. This guy did this, that guy did that. The ones that I read were sources to vent unhappiness with their lives. But knowing one of the women very well who posts on such a forum, she tells me that she uses it to blow off steam. Women need to do that, men not so much. The Mars and Venus thing.
But if you were to take in the intimate moments of these women, you would find that what they are yearning for is the romantic love. I take a slightly different point of view. In the play Fiddler on the Roof was a song called "Do You Love Me?"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g_Y3180ZXRE
A kind word, a pleasant smile, a helpmate, a friend. And the remembrance of the love that you had when you first met. I would say that love is very much alive in many of these marriages. My evidence is anecdotal as well. But as Faux Pas always tells me, I'm a glass half full kinda guy.
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Hen parties? Wow. Keep it classy dude..
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But, if one reads FSUW forums, many of them, even a slight majority, are not in love with their partners. They readily admit their partners do not know this. Hence, they are insincere. You can ask some of the FSUW who post here for confirmation of this.
What can I say? You know a lot of FSUW that are scoundrels. LOL
Any man that has been previously married should know whether his wife/finace is truly in love with him. Any man that has the vision of the long beautiful legs wrapped around his neck every morning is undoubtedly not very bright!
I guess I am lucky in that respect. No one has ever fooled me as to whether they are in love with me. Somehow I suspect that your friends on women's forums are not completely honest with you. There are very few women that are clever and talented enough to fool a wise man as to whether they are truly in love with them.
With the personal time together and daily Skype chats with a gal and her family, it is rather easy to sort out the fakes. I guess I might have to somewhat agree with you that there are men culpable that do not spend enough time to determine the sincerity of the fiance before marriage. There are a thousand red flags offered in the forums, so there is really no excuse except for the few pros that can pull it off.
Even in my mistake/failure there was no question about love. It was a case of incompatibility and personality differences that could not be reconciled. By the same token, out of thousands of women that are available, there is at least one for everyone that is sincere and capable of being a lifetime partner.
Again, it takes a lot of time, effort, and money to find the right one. It's no different than seeking a partner in your own country (if you can find what you are willing to marry).
The MOB image of going to Ukraine and instantly finding a compatible wife is somewhat of a dream rather than reality. Some get lucky, but I agree it is not the norm. At the same time, I do not necessarily think my method is any better than anyone else's method.
My third visit was to go on an extended vacation and further integrate into the culture and get close to my friends that are residents. They seem to know the real world and give great advice. It takes a lot of money and time to use this approach and I realize that many men do not have the resources to use this method.
I think the bottom line is to spend a lot of time with your prospective partner in person and then to spend a lot of time in daily chats on Skype. I don't know how to explain it, but the time you spend together on a daily basis will help ferret out the fakes from the ones truly in love.
From your post, I gather that the real problem is that AM are easily fooled by the long legs, blond hair, and BS that is transmitted by the insincere women. Perhaps some more clues offered to the FSUW seekers would prevent some of the GC gals that you speak about from being successful.
I have a question for you. Why are these gals you talk about voicing their deceit on a woman's forum? Did they not get what they wanted? They apparently got a marriage and a green card. What the hell did they want.... Brad Pit?
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Funniest damn thing. I have read one of those FSUW forums. Some day I'll tell you why..... They are hen parties. This guy did this, that guy did that. The ones that I read were sources to vent unhappiness with their lives. But knowing one of the women very well who posts on such a forum, she tells me that she uses it to blow off steam. Women need to do that, men not so much. The Mars and Venus thing.
But if you were to take in the intimate moments of these women, you would find that what they are yearning for is the romantic love. I take a slightly different point of view. In the play Fiddler on the Roof was a song called "Do You Love Me?"
Oh shit! You are cracking me up! Why is it FSU women constantly ask "Why do you love me"?
I finally said it is because of her cooking. LOL. I get tired of answering the same question daily. Apparently she finally got the humor in my tired answers.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g_Y3180ZXRE
A kind word, a pleasant smile, a helpmate, a friend. And the remembrance of the love that you had when you first met. I would say that love is very much alive in many of these marriages. My evidence is anecdotal as well. But as Faux Pas always tells me, I'm a glass half full kinda guy.
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Jon,
Yes, I have learned that FSUW need a lot more attention and confirmation that you love them than do AW. It's not all bad, just an adjustment. LOL
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There are very few women that are clever and talented enough to fool a wise man as to whether they are truly in love with them.
And the fantasies continue....
Women don't have to try very hard. Men deceive themselves quite well enough by themselves...
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After another absence from this place, I stopped by for a quick scan. I found the same old poop, and some pearls of wisdom.
1, Regarding the give and take between Gator and LA ... Why do people on internet discussion boards attempt to draw real life awareness about a person? It seems obviously impossible, much less inappropriate!
2, Regarding the core topic of this site ...
OK, so let me ask you this. Knowing most of these women are not in love, why would a man "settle" for a woman who is with him for what he can provide, rather than for who he is?
I suppose it is not something I understand, both from personal experience and from my family. I just cannot fathom choosing to live with someone who was not madly, passionately, in love with me, and vice versa.
What more ever needs to be said?
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But, if one reads FSUW forums, many of them, even a slight majority, are not in love with their partners. They readily admit their partners do not know this. Hence, they are insincere. You can ask some of the FSUW who post here for confirmation of this.
Confirmed. Have been reading FSUW forums for years.
In case of FSUW with young kids marrying AM who are older/much older than those FSUW's fathers. There is no love there. There is at most a degree of respect. It's a contract. The old goats gets a woman in many case younger than his own daughters - for whatever reason he wants one. She gets a better future for her child/children. She does sacrifice her time and youth, even has to go to bed with an old frog every night. Many an FSUW wrote on those forums that they need at least a drink and close their eyes - but they do it for their kids' future.
I have no problem if both parties understand the rules of such marriage and stick to them. The real tragedy occurs when the woman realizes that marrying an old goat doesn't mean getting royal treatment, financial stability and care of their kids. Many of those old goats do believe (and convince themselves) that the women are with them indeed for the love of their wrinkled booty, not for the financial benefit. Many just don't have the finances, plain and simple. So, no good schools/activities/cars/colleges for kids as the woman has expected. Often - no health insurance or car, or education, or even normal food for the woman and her kid. The old goat even expects her to go wash the toilets to take care of herseld and the child after all, he already brought her to the land of milk and honey! And he expects her to be a maid and a cook for him!
You have no idea how many stories just like that i've read on the FSUW forums over the years - it's just so sad!
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...Old geezers, maybe but social rejects? You are the one that is a social reject and every time you open your mouth you prove it. Having alienated most of the members already, perhaps it is time to put you on ignore!
MAJORITY of the AM/FSUW couples You are loosing it I am afraid.
Calmissille-
Anyone can Google San Berdo and understand only losers live in that area. If it isn't for Rancho Cucamonga/ Ontario / Riverside, the place would be a silly desolate area for in-breds.
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A well-adjusted man can be social reject when it comes to dating.
Fortunately, my ego is not built upon my dating skills and as I am now married my wife is quite content for me to not date so my need for well refined dating skills is nonexistent.
Now, you can't blame women for not wanting to be seen, much less date, a fat man, can you?
Again, this odd obsession with being fat or not fat...
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Tolstoy was referring to marriages, then in fashion in Russia, of teen aged girls with men in their twilight years.
Who is talking about teen aged girls marrying men on their death beds here? Only you. We're talking about marriages with large age gaps and you used a man as an example who mocks it, (or are you making that up?), when in fact you didn't know he was in a marriage with a large age gap.
Of course, I don't expect Billy to have read much Tolstoy.
Putting someone down doesn't lift yourself up doesn't work with smart people. Don't you think it's better to know about reality, the writer, than his fiction, his writings?
But, if one reads FSUW forums, many of them, even a slight majority, are not in love with their partners. They readily admit their partners do not know this. Hence, they are insincere.
You never met these people yet you know exactly how they feel and thus they represent the majority. Some of the people you honored earlier in this thread you felt is helping their wives grow spend an enormous amount of time on the internet. I don't know how they do it. When I got married, I spend a lot less time. Most people in cross cultural marriages to not spend lots of time on a forum and less time on the internet so those you read on a forum are a small sample and should not represent the majority.
One reason my critics stopped criticizing me and my relationship is because I post a lot of photos. I don't have to say my wife is in love with me. One can see she's very healthy, taken care of and happy. Until you see more photos and better yet actually meet people, reading them doesn't define them completely. Although you mention you met lots of FSU people, I've actually dated them and got a feel of what women want and what they will accept. What I written in my previous post isn't made up or my opinion, it comes from the horse's mouth.
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I guess I goofed on the post button.
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Huh?
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Confirmed. Have been reading FSUW forums for years.
In case of FSUW with young kids marrying AM who are older/much older than those FSUW's fathers. There is no love there. There is at most a degree of respect. It's a contract. The old goats gets a woman in many case younger than his own daughters - for whatever reason he wants one. She gets a better future for her child/children. She does sacrifice her time and youth, even has to go to bed with an old frog every night. Many an FSUW wrote on those forums that they need at least a drink and close their eyes - but they do it for their kids' future.
I have no problem if both parties understand the rules of such marriage and stick to them. The real tragedy occurs when the woman realizes that marrying an old goat doesn't mean getting royal treatment, financial stability and care of their kids. Many of those old goats do believe (and convince themselves) that the women are with them indeed for the love of their wrinkled booty, not for the financial benefit. Many just don't have the finances, plain and simple. So, no good schools/activities/cars/colleges for kids as the woman has expected. Often - no health insurance or car, or education, or even normal food for the woman and her kid. The old goat even expects her to go wash the toilets to take care of herseld and the child after all, he already brought her to the land of milk and honey! And he expects her to be a maid and a cook for him!
You have no idea how many stories just like that i've read on the FSUW forums over the years - it's just so sad!
Frankly, your point of view is anecdotal as well, just as was Bo's and mine. Your 'old goat' imagery is simply that, a concoction from your mind of what you imagine that person looks like and acts like. While I'm not saying that you have not heard such stories, all of your imagery creates a generalization. Each person is different, with different degrees of involvement, affection, support and love. Unless you live another person's life, it is impossible to know what's going on in their mind or in their heart.
Like this forum here, a forum for FSUW is simply that, a place to go, express feelings, and offer mutual support. This forum is a collection of the more sophisticated of those people who have gone the FSUW/WM direction, and, therefore is a collection of people who have substantial knowledge about the process. Accordingly, the FSUW sites that I am aware of (I am sure you are much more practiced than I am at visiting such sites :)) are there for the purpose of allowing the sharing of experiences and getting advice.
Because they are there, these women become sophisticated as well. The hard cases are advised as to how to leave a loveless marriage. Rather than exist in a slavery type setting without support, healthcare, and an existence of cleaning toilets, the women emerge divorced, with a green card and ready for action. Some of my interaction has been with young women who use these sites to fool the immigration system.
But, as stated above, your perspective is anecdotal and should be understood as such, not as gospel truth.
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Anecdotal evidence should not be dismissed outright, particularly when it comes to human relations. Most observation of human relations is done through either hard won personal experience or by anecdote.
If one hears the same stories over and over again, patterns emerge. Anecdotal evidence allows us to recognize such patterns and categorize, rather effectively, situations which surround us.
So, unless you've got something scientific which demonstrates that women with children who marry, as pitbull called them, "old goats", are deliriously happy, what do we really have to go on other than anecdotes?
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[size=78%]Like this forum here, a forum for FSUW is simply that, a place to go, express feelings, and offer mutual support. [/size]
The women that I do know from the FSU, none participate in forums for FSUW. One must be careful not to overgeneralize and the forums for women may not necessarily be representative of women married to foreigners any more than the men here representative of all men married to FSUW...
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Or they don't admit it.
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Anecdotal evidence should not be dismissed outright, particularly when it comes to human relations. Most observation of human relations is done through either hard won personal experience or by anecdote.
If one hears the same stories over and over again, patterns emerge. Anecdotal evidence allows us to recognize such patterns and categorize, rather effectively, situations which surround us.
So, unless you've got something scientific which demonstrates that women with children who marry, as pitbull called them, "old goats", are deliriously happy, what do we really have to go on other than anecdotes?
Looking at forums for anecdotal evidence is questionable at best. It is reasonable to conclude that most stories would be similar based on the concept of search patterns that brought them to the forum.
If you have women searching Google for "I am a FSU woman and I hate my husband", they will find stories about how FSU women hate their husband.
Hardly a fair representation.
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Anecdotal evidence should not be dismissed outright, particularly when it comes to human relations. Most observation of human relations is done through either hard won personal experience or by anecdote.
If one hears the same stories over and over again, pattern emerge. Anecdotal evidence allows us to recognize such patterns and categorize, rather effectively, situations which surround us.
So, unless you've got something scientific which demonstrates that women with children who marry, as pitbull called them, "old goats", are deliriously happy, what do we really have to go on other than anecdotes?
Absolutely nothing. You are correct. There is no statistical evidence.
But before we believe that this beautiful 'Skaya' is down on her hands and knees, scrubbing toilets for a living because she is destitute, without healthcare, can't cloth her children, etc., simply because she married a man not the same age as the man who got her pregnant, we must give pause before believing that this is the standard. My concern was with the imagery and the presentation. I am sure that there are many marriages of convenience.
The women who aren't on such a forum (at least for long) are the women who get their ticket to a Western Country, do their time with their husband, get their green card, and jet-set off to a new existence. Some even skip the husband part, by hiring a fake husband or going the VAWA route. This is not documented but should be noted.
As stated in earlier threads, I am currently in a relationship with a woman who is 11 years younger than I am. We are compatible, have many common interests and are talking about having a family together. Should I run and hide under a table because of age disparity? Based on anecdotal evidence?
The perspective that is given, which is anecdotal, should be tempered with conditional phrases rather than painted as stated fact. Otherwise, absent statistical fact, it cannot be proven. Your statement last night regarding the 25 year age difference was easy to acknowledge because in my mind I could not visualize anything other than what you said as being true. While anecdotal, it was something that one could relate to and therefore accept. That is not the case here. No conditionals were used, therefore the argument is disregarded.
An anecdotal argument which uses grand suppositions, such as the term 'Old Goat', defined only as a person older than the man who got the woman pregnant, cannot be held as valid.
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Should I run and hide under a table because of age disparity?
No, but you should wear a hair shirt.
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Enough of these age gaps.
Let's talk about something less controversial . . .
Like sexual positions, frequency, noises, number of outcomes, funny happenings, etc.
Example of funny: Gal referred to 96 position. I said, let's try it. She then laughed.
Example: One knee (doesn't matter who on top) slipping over the edge of very narrow couch with both parties eventually on floor.
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Is it truly that exceptional [for an RW pursuing a career]? One of the most written about topics is the expense after her arrival - which always includes the cost of education as a large portion of her adaptation and pursuing her chosen career profession. ???? Is it really all talk?
Me thinks this was GQ's beef. It is really all talk.
Ever heard about MOBers looking for the 'traditional' woman? That AW are such vicious animals who prefer careers to stay-at-home moms bleh, bleh, bleh, so they are making this 'investment' to shag themselves a 'traditional' woman?
Wouldn't a woman who chooses a career be antithetical to a 'traditional' woman?
In that respect, I can understand that this would be exceptional given the culture of the MOBer.
Now, back to reading.
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Me thinks this was GQ's beef. It is really all talk.
Ever heard about MOBers looking for the 'traditional' woman? That AW are such vicious animals who prefer careers to stay-at-home moms bleh, bleh, bleh, so they are making this 'investment' to shag themselves a 'traditional' woman?
Wouldn't a woman who chooses a career be antithetical to a 'traditional' woman?
In that respect, I can understand that this would be exceptional given the culture of the MOBer.
Now, back to reading.
Do these MOB'ers really want a stay at home housewife because they state they want "tradition"?
I honestly haven't see that reference to tradition but I tend to gloss over that stuff.
If that was the case and they found a woman who wanted the same, what is the problem?
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I don't know. I dated one who wanted to stay at home and raise kids, take care of the family, etc. That's one out of five or 20% in my statistically insignificant sampling.
Heh, my ex-wife demanded a flat in Manhattan with a maid.
She had me confused with a Russian government official.
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Me thinks this was GQ's beef. It is really all talk.
Ever heard about MOBers looking for the 'traditional' woman? That AW are such vicious animals who prefer careers to stay-at-home moms bleh, bleh, bleh, so they are making this 'investment' to shag themselves a 'traditional' woman?
Wouldn't a woman who chooses a career be antithetical to a 'traditional' woman?
In that respect, I can understand that this would be exceptional given the culture of the MOBer.
Now, back to reading.
In the heyday it was "All AW are fat, unemployed, pill popping alcoholic feminist that expect me to take care of her and put up with her shit while she is banging all my friends and some who aren't" *paraphrasing here* :D
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In the heyday it was "All AW are fat, unemployed, pill popping alcoholic feminist that expect me to take care of her and put up with her shit" *paraphrasing here* :D
Some of my favorites:
I dated a ton of beautiful AW at home but still ended up going overseas for a wife.
It just happened that my wife was Russian (even though they signed up for Russian dating sites).
I was always interested in Russian culture.
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So, on a more serious note.. would you say this "buying youth/trading youth for access to cash." is naturally assumed? possibly the core definition of MOB'er??
Assumed by the on-looker? That is a big yes in the majority of cases. Hot Sveta walks in with Mr. Wrinkle. Yep.
Core definition?
Think about this for a second. How many interpreters are working in the FSU supporting Western men visiting their 'fiances?' Would you say that the vast majority of men traveling to the former Soyuz can speak and communicate with their intended without any assistance?
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Bo,
Your choice of words and characterization of the motives for men going to Ukraine to "buy" a wife is insulting and misleading. Men go to Ukraine and other FSU countries because they cannot find what they are wanting in the US.
To say that they cannot attract what they want is misleading. The truth is that they are in very short supply! Any hot, single woman in the US is already so sought after that they already know their worth and can pick and choose who they want to date/marry. There are so few of them, that the supply cannot meet the demand.
The wonderful characteristics of many FSU women are what they want and that is why they go where the supply is. It is not only beauty men are after, but the MOB agencies exploit that characteristic as well.
Perhaps if you rephrase your comment, we might be closer to agreement.
It is true that the women often marry Americans to improve their lifestyles. So what? That applies to all kinds of people. People move and change jobs to improve their lifestyles. It is a natural human desire.
I'm scratching my head here.
You agree with Boethius yet you claim she is insulting (to you)?
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One can think this all strange and unethical but it's a fact in the FSU women, on average, will consider a larger age gap compared to their Western sister. Unwise? It's probably wise in the minds of those women to accept this as they deal with less financial troubles, immaturity, and drama than they would with a younger husband. Living in a place where BS is abundant, the last thing they need is additional BS from a husband and there's less risk, less BS, and more stability, including financially, with an older husband than a younger.
All things being equal, this is bullshevik.
Try again.
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What is an MOB. Stardate 1-Six.2004: Justifiable Exploitation
I remember during my newbie days spotting an agency located in Yoshkar -Ola called Makshim (Maxim). My first post at RWG was about this experience and titled it: Justifiable Exploitation.
You sign up with the agency and they appoint a 'point' person to meet your *needs*. You do what you usually do in these web-based agencies - browse their catalogues...then pick your horses choices. It seemed harmless at the time especially since your point man will then communicate with the gals to see if they're interested in you - and only then do communication starts. Safe so far...
Then I get an email telling me the result with an added feature service. I was told I can start communicating with the women who said 'yes' PLUS, for an additional 'fee', I can get beautiful pictures of these women in bikinis. How much or how little I would like to pay will determine how much or how little they'll be wearing...I was assured it was a very popular feature for the men.
LOL. Bailed out of that stupidity....
But it was the *general response* to that particular thread I started that was an eye-opener for me. It was generally viewed by the peanut gallery as *normal* to this venture measured by the overall thread response. Normal? This was a rude awakening for me about this silly adventure. These men are supposedly looking for their respective wives...
At the time, I couldn't quite figure out where the fault lies. My mind immediately 100 miles and hour and started thinking - some men will eventually marry one of these women - and regardless what type of life they/she may find herself in his hometown - there is that slim possibility her bare/ naked pictures housed in some/many men's C-drive could somehow find it's way out into the virtual wilderness.
Anecdotal? Generalization? Justifiable? Exploitation?
The mindless world of the MOB for MOBers...
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Frankly, your point of view is anecdotal as well, just as was Bo's and mine. Your 'old goat' imagery is simply that, a concoction from your mind of what you imagine that person looks like and acts like. While I'm not saying that you have not heard such stories, all of your imagery creates a generalization. Each person is different, with different degrees of involvement, affection, support and love. Unless you live another person's life, it is impossible to know what's going on in their mind or in their heart.
But, as stated above, your perspective is anecdotal and should be understood as such, not as gospel truth.
Nice blah blah :D
Where did I say everyone is as I described and this is gospel thruth? However, I've read a lot (as in MANY) stories just as I've described on FSUW forums for years. They are pretty cookie-cutter with slight variations. I've talked to quite some women personally. Heck, there are enough old goats on this very site with exactly the same mindset. It does happen, much more often than many WM want to admit.
You see old men here are selling their age as having the following features that RW find attractive in a husband: Maturity, will treat you like a princess, stability, financial first and foremost, provides good future for the RW's kids. The ugly thruth is, old husband doesn't come with those features by default. He sure comes with the wrinkled ass though ;D
As they say, "With age comes wisdom. However, quite often old age comes alone" ;D
I really hope girls with young kids realize this simple thruth before the marriage.
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PLUS, for an additional 'fee', I can get beautiful pictures of these women in bikinis.
there is that slim possibility her bare/ naked pictures
So we go from women in bikinis to bare naked :o However, to be honest, I would say that most Russian women under the age of 40 (and many more under the age of 50) already have piles of photos of themselves in their bikinis on their favorite social networking sites... :-X
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So we go from women in bikinis to bare naked :o However, to be honest, I would say that most Russian women under the age of 40 (and many more under the age of 50) already have piles of photos of themselves in their bikinis on their favorite social networking sites... :-X
You didn't read what I wrote. Next time, please do before responding.
I didn't think I actually had to say *nothing at all* - predicated on how much you're willing to pay. The point wasn't the amount of clothing you sorely missed, it was the entire dynamics/idea that drowned out the reason these men where supposed to be there in the first place - and quite possibly any seeming consequences that *can* happen thereafter.
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Me thinks this was GQ's beef. It is really all talk.
Ever heard about MOBers looking for the 'traditional' woman? That AW are such vicious animals who prefer careers to stay-at-home moms bleh, bleh, bleh, so they are making this 'investment' to shag themselves a 'traditional' woman?
Wouldn't a woman who chooses a career be antithetical to a 'traditional' woman?
In that respect, I can understand that this would be exceptional given the culture of the MOBer.
Now, back to reading.
Isn't the "traditional FSU woman" mostly agency hype that members here and other fora consistently debunk?
Even the term itself is ambiguous. I did meet and date the one who aspired to raise a family and stay at home - which is fine by me. "Traditionally" families had as many kids as possible to work the fields, hunt, for some to merely survive until adulthood - which is not really fine by me .. heh..
I have known more that a few here in the USA with the same dream of staying at home and taking care of the home/family - not having to work. I know it isn't merely men's projection but rather the nature/desire of the individual woman. The others were/are career minded ladies who wish to pursue something different - which is fine by me. I simply don't care because it is her choice. If she pursues a career, it'll be a benefit to our family as well as a benefit to her individually. If she chooses to be a stay at home mom it will be the same.
The gift I wish to give my wife is the absolute freedom to choose her own path and to assist where I can for her to reach her full potential. Full potential doesn't necessarily equate to *career*, or home. It could be a spiritual growth, or some pro bono assistance to a non-profit org.
If she chooses a path which ultimately results in her becoming financially independent then more power to her. That, however, is not necessarily a woman's dream or goal and I see no reason to push her in that direction if her 'calling', for lack of a better term, is in a different direction.
How many guys would spend the money for a higher degree so that his wife can fulfill her destiny being some kind of volunteer? bringing no income into the family? That's a distinct possibility in some fields. Is that also a benefit to the family? I believe it absolutely is, if the family can afford that, because that is her passion. And, there are also scholarships (academic or otherwise) and grants available to ease the burden if it is such.
For years, we've had men write about this topic. Education has been on the list in virtually every thread where this topic comes up. If this really is "exceptional acts" by a few good men, I'll be rather disappointed but my life and family goes on.
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You didn't read what I wrote. Next time, please do before responding.
I didn't think I actually had to say *nothing at all* - predicated on how much you're willing to pay. The point wasn't the amount of clothing you sorely missed, it was the entire dynamics/idea that drowned out the reason these men where supposed to be there in the first place - and quite possibly any seeming consequences that *can* happen thereafter.
In that case, thank you for the clarification.
However, I expect that few men really go to Russia with the hopes of finding a "traditional" woman. It may be the rationale, the excuse if you will, but most are certainly looking for a more attractive and/or younger woman than they could find at home.
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Calmissille-
Anyone can Google San Berdo and understand only losers live in that area. If it isn't for Rancho Cucamonga/ Ontario / Riverside, the place would be a silly desolate area for in-breds.
Actually you are just short of a moron! I do not live in San Bernardino. Redlands/East Highland/ is one of the most desireable places to live in the Inland Empire. Google Redlands you moron.
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GQ's original post did refer to "Redlands", but was edited for other content.
To all posters, please attempt to keep the thread on track without insults.
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Nice blah blah :D
Where did I say everyone is as I described and this is gospel thruth? However, I've read a lot (as in MANY) stories just as I've described on FSUW forums for years. They are pretty cookie-cutter with slight variations. I've talked to quite some women personally. Heck, there are enough old goats on this very site with exactly the same mindset. It does happen, much more often than many WM want to admit.
You see old men here are selling their age as having the following features that RW find attractive in a husband: Maturity, will treat you like a princess, stability, financial first and foremost, provides good future for the RW's kids. The ugly thruth is, old husband doesn't come with those features by default. He sure comes with the wrinkled ass though ;D
As they say, "With age comes wisdom. However, quite often old age comes alone" ;D
I really hope girls with young kids realize this simple thruth before the marriage.
You certainly are a charming woman. Just what every WM is dreaming of marrying.
Why would a happily married woman spend years on FSUW forums listening to a bunch of bitching women?
Perhaps your attitude might change if you spend your time studying happily married folks.
What's that expression.... "Birds of a feather......"
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Isn't the "traditional FSU woman" mostly agency hype that members here and other fora consistently debunk?
The old timers try to debunk, sometimes unsuccessfully. ;D
The point you raise Dave is extremely valid. No arguing that.
However, my comment was along the lines of the MOBer zeroing on the 'traditional' RW who will make home cozy and cook tasty dishes. The potential tinderbox being that the RW would like to spread her wings, as in going back to school or getting a job, and the MOBer felling betrayed by her taking advantage of his 'sacrifice.'
Before my wife came here she said she wanted to have a child and be a stay-at-home mom (until school age) before going back to work. We discussed this clearly and I told her that as long as the finances held, I wouldn't mind at all. When she got here she wanted to do some work while we 'practiced' of the procreation thingy. I asked her if she wanted to go to school instead and try to get her license. She had her plans and I knew it was best for her to do things at her own pace.
It was not easy but in the end it worked great for us. I'm about to retire and she is starting her career. Some of our friends asked if we planned it this way. Looking back, it does seem like we did but it just a big coincidence.
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You certainly are a charming woman. Just what every WM is dreaming of marrying.
Why would a happily married woman spend years on FSUW forums listening to a bunch of bitching women?
Perhaps your attitude might change if you spend your time studying happily married folks.
What's that expression.... "Birds of a feather......"
IOW, back to the kitchen woman.
LMFAO
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You certainly are a charming woman. Just what every WM is dreaming of marrying.
Why would a happily married woman spend years on FSUW forums listening to a bunch of bitching women?
Perhaps your attitude might change if you spend your time studying happily married folks.
What's that expression.... "Birds of a feather......"
Posts attacking others' spouses or marriages are off limits.
Stick to the topic.
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The old timers try to debunk, sometimes unsuccessfully. ;D
The point you raise Dave is extremely valid. No arguing that.
However, my comment was along the lines of the MOBer zeroing on the 'traditional' RW who will make home cozy and cook tasty dishes. The potential tinderbox being that the RW would like to spread her wings, as in going back to school or getting a job, and the MOBer felling betrayed by her taking advantage of his 'sacrifice.'
Before my wife came here she said she wanted to have a child and be a stay-at-home mom (until school age) before going back to work. We discussed this clearly and I told her that as long as the finances held, I wouldn't mind at all. When she got here she wanted to do some work while we 'practiced' of the procreation thingy. I asked her if she wanted to go to school instead and try to get her license. She had her plans and I knew it was best for her to do things at her own pace.
It was not easy but in the end it worked great for us. I'm about to retire and she is starting her career. Some of our friends asked if we planned it this way. Looking back, it does seem like we did but it just a big coincidence.
It sounds like you did what many do and I doubt it was a coincidence.
All the members that I chat with offline, none of them has an idea that they are marrying a woman that will be kept home and baking cookies. Some that are planning to have children do want the mother to stay home in the childs early years. That is a traditional custom when the finances allows it.
Where does this propoganda come from that the average AM wants a FSUW to stay at home scrubbing floors. I have seen none of this with our forum members.
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1, Regarding the give and take between Gator and LA ... Why do people on internet discussion boards attempt to draw real life awareness about a person? It seems obviously impossible, much less inappropriate!
The two met in real life.
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The gift I wish to give my wife is the absolute freedom to choose her own path and to assist where I can for her to reach her full potential. Full potential doesn't necessarily equate to *career*, or home. It could be a spiritual growth, or some pro bono assistance to a non-profit org.
If she chooses a path which ultimately results in her becoming financially independent then more power to her. That, however, is not necessarily a woman's dream or goal and I see no reason to push her in that direction if her 'calling', for lack of a better term, is in a different direction.
Yep, but that's where you are the same as the majority and where GBQ is different.
My ex was from the same category - I could do the best I saw fit and he would not discourage me. What it meant in my reality was after 10 hours day work I'd come home and he would tell me "I got you the newspaper, see if anything worth applying". And I was supposed to be studying weekends plus do not forget the housework; he was helping but it would took him 6 hours just to tidy the kitchen having a glass or two now and then so I had choice between cleaning or living in a shithole. It took me years to get a job I wanted because of the circumstances I was in with no support available and having to deal with a number of expensive and emotionally draining family issues on my own.
GQB for a change made his wife's first job happened by using his networking, was willing to postpone children even, willing to go through his wife not taking part in housework etc....And I remember his post, his motivation he is always saying is not to support his wife in whatever she chooses, that's without saying btw but give her the ability to stand on her own feet even if his own life was temporarily getting some discomfort. He was not just assisting he was working on it as much as he could and nearly as hard as she did.
Plus he understand his wife is his parent's future support and he is thinking of stuff like how to organize their life later in time....Just to compare there are many posters here who openly express fear or unwillingness to have her parents as guests, to grandparents speaking Russian to their kids...
Regardless of how I may disagree with him he is more man than 99% here. Every man takes his wife interests at heart when it is not against his wishes or benefits. GQB takes his wife interests at heart even when it's not directly beneficial for him. A Real Man what every woman admires.
He may found his wife through MOB but he is not typical, no.
I do apologize for discussing a member but the whole thread seems to be about it .
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You certainly are a charming woman. Just what every WM is dreaming of marrying.
Why would a happily married woman spend years on FSUW forums listening to a bunch of bitching women?
Perhaps your attitude might change if you spend your time studying happily married folks.
What's that expression.... "Birds of a feather......"
Women like me don't marry old goats, some FSUW don't have to compromise believe it or not. I think your fiancee definitely needs access to one of those forums - women do help each other a lot. Oh, yea, and A LOT of alcohol : )
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I don't think GQ is cynical.
Really?
I don't know if GQ is a cynical person in general, but I do know that as far as the MOB business is concerned, he is cynical.
Even GQ would admit to that.
Just read every post he's made in this thread, or better still, every post he's made on this forum! :)
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Reality can't be cynical.
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Yep, but that's where you are the same as the majority and where GBQ is different.
My ex was from the same category - I could do the best I saw fit and he would not discourage me. What it meant in my reality was after 10 hours day work I'd come home and he would tell me "I got you the newspaper, see if anything worth applying". And I was supposed to be studying weekends plus do not forget the housework; he was helping but it would took him 6 hours just to tidy the kitchen having a glass or two now and then so I had choice between cleaning or living in a shithole. It took me years to get a job I wanted because of the circumstances I was in with no support available and having to deal with a number of expensive and emotionally draining family issues on my own.
GQB for a change made his wife's first job happened by using his networking, was willing to postpone children even, willing to go through his wife not taking part in housework etc....And I remember his post, his motivation he is always saying is not to support his wife in whatever she chooses, that's without saying btw but give her the ability to stand on her own feet even if his own life was temporarily getting some discomfort. He was not just assisting he was working on it as much as he could and nearly as hard as she did.
Plus he understand his wife is his parent's future support and he is thinking of stuff like how to organize their life later in time....Just to compare there are many posters here who openly express fear or unwillingness to have her parents as guests, to grandparents speaking Russian to their kids...
Regardless of how I may disagree with him he is more man than 99% here. Every man takes his wife interests at heart when it is not against his wishes or benefits. GQB takes his wife interests at heart even when it's not directly beneficial for him. A Real Man what every woman admires.
He may found his wife through MOB but he is not typical, no.
I do apologize for discussing a member but the whole thread seems to be about it .
Ranetka, this is spot on! Couldn't have said it better! You've described the difference between a real man and an average MOB-er really well. Unfortunately, MOB-ers are just not equipped to understand
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Bo,
Your choice of words and characterization of the motives for men going to Ukraine to "buy" a wife is insulting and misleading. Men go to Ukraine and other FSU countries because they cannot find what they are wanting in the US.
To say that they cannot attract what they want is misleading.
The things I know about your finacee is that she is 38, a single mother of two kids from two different fathers. Is it that hard to come by in the US?
Please note this is in no way a shot at her character (it's a fact without any judgement), it's just I find your reasoning a bit off.
If I was not lazy I would have found a post from Ed and Co where he complained than all single hot 40is AW are single mothers or have issues...
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Reality can't be cynical.
Whose reality? Reality of women bitching about their husbands on a forum or the women that love their husbands and have no need for such forums?
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Women like me don't marry old goats, some FSUW don't have to compromise believe it or not. I think your fiancee definitely needs access to one of those forums - women do help each other a lot. Oh, yea, and A LOT of alcohol : )
Fair enough!
Men like me do not need to compromise and marry a bitching woman with a nasty disposition.
As far as my fiance having access to forums, she already has including this one.
After reading the insult exchanges and stupid arguments, she chooses to not participate.
She also indicated that after we marry, we will be enjoying our family rather than wasting time on forums. Makes sense to me.
I like a woman that thinks positive about life rather than make a career out of denigrating other people. It took some time, but there are FSUW with pleasant, happy personalities. That's what life's about.
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Whose reality? Reality of women bitching about their husbands on a forum or the women that love their husbands and have no need for such forums?
+1
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GQ not once mentioned women on forums. However, you've made a leap in logic. Not all women posting on FSUW forums are, as you stated, "bitching about their husbands".
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Regardless of how I may disagree with him he is more man than 99% here. Every man takes his wife interests at heart when it is not against his wishes or benefits. GQB takes his wife interests at heart even when it's not directly beneficial for him. A Real Man what every woman admires.
Maybe he has a woman that is worth doing all those things?
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GQ not once mentioned women on forums. However, you've made a leap in logic. Not all women posting on FSUW forums are, as you stated, "bitching about their husbands".
You mentioned other forums. I was responding to you and not GQ if you happened to miss the quote.
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I was responding to a question about GQ, if you happened to miss the post.
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I was responding to a question about GQ, if you happened to miss the post.
Quoting the post in your response would help. It doesn't matter since my question is still on topic with your response.
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Yep, but that's where you are the same as the majority and where GBQ is different.
My ex was from the same category - I could do the best I saw fit and he would not discourage me. What it meant in my reality was after 10 hours day work I'd come home and he would tell me "I got you the newspaper, see if anything worth applying". And I was supposed to be studying weekends plus do not forget the housework; he was helping but it would took him 6 hours just to tidy the kitchen having a glass or two now and then so I had choice between cleaning or living in a shithole. It took me years to get a job I wanted because of the circumstances I was in with no support available and having to deal with a number of expensive and emotionally draining family issues on my own.
GQB for a change made his wife's first job happened by using his networking, was willing to postpone children even, willing to go through his wife not taking part in housework etc....And I remember his post, his motivation he is always saying is not to support his wife in whatever she chooses, that's without saying btw but give her the ability to stand on her own feet even if his own life was temporarily getting some discomfort. He was not just assisting he was working on it as much as he could and nearly as hard as she did.
Plus he understand his wife is his parent's future support and he is thinking of stuff like how to organize their life later in time....Just to compare there are many posters here who openly express fear or unwillingness to have her parents as guests, to grandparents speaking Russian to their kids...
Regardless of how I may disagree with him he is more man than 99% here. Every man takes his wife interests at heart when it is not against his wishes or benefits. GQB takes his wife interests at heart even when it's not directly beneficial for him. A Real Man what every woman admires.
He may found his wife through MOB but he is not typical, no.
I do apologize for discussing a member but the whole thread seems to be about it .
Damn You GQ! You're making us all look bad!
Nah, the whole thread was not supposed to be about GQ. We've discussed other topics. But they're the same old ones. But I was happy to check back in today over my self-made tasty sandwich, at lunchtime.
Speaking of tasty, when I was going through my search last summer, I was amazed at the number of women who put near the top of their resume, "Cooks tasty dishes". Quite honesty, I can cook better than most women I know, and will expect to in my future life. But growing up on an austerity budget, most of the women that I did wind up meeting were pretty sharp at knowing how to keep a clean home and throw together a meal.
I kind of resent the fact that I believe that they are told to put such in a resume. If they have a love of cooking, fine, but I'll put my rack of lamb and pumpkin bars up against anyone else's. My resentment stems from the stereotypical idea that this is what a man is looking for in a woman. Ha!
This is one more way that the MOB sites dumb down their advertising to try to entice the stupid and uninformed.
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Fair enough!
Men like me do not need to compromise and marry a bitching woman with a nasty disposition.
As far as my fiance having access to forums, she already has including this one.
After reading the insult exchanges and stupid arguments, she chooses to not participate.
She also indicated that after we marry, we will be enjoying our family rather than wasting time on forums. Makes sense to me.
I like a woman that thinks positive about life rather than make a career out of denigrating other people. It took some time, but there are FSUW with pleasant, happy personalities. That's what life's about.
Let's be fair - I give credit where credit is due on this forum. There are plenty of posts where I am not shy with my admiration for certain male posters. Even those I disagree with on some issues. I just don't have to be "pleasant" to an old goat in exchange for a GC, so no BS from me - tell it like it is :)
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tell it like it is :)
Maybe you can answer the question I posed to Bo. Why is your reality truth while others is not?
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Fair enough!
Men like me do not need to compromise and marry a bitching woman with a nasty disposition.
As far as my fiance having access to forums, she already has including this one.
After reading the insult exchanges and stupid arguments, she chooses to not participate.
She also indicated that after we marry, we will be enjoying our family rather than wasting time on forums. Makes sense to me.
I like a woman that thinks positive about life rather than make a career out of denigrating other people. It took some time, but there are FSUW with pleasant, happy personalities. That's what life's about.
Hmm, well, pitbull's husband has posted here about what a wonderful gem she is. He, like pitbull, is very well educated, and he has a great career. They have a beautiful child, and, I mean, beautiful, I'm not embellishing. You don't live with her, so you don't know pitbull's disposition.
Be careful with those statements, cal. I used to read the same, "Boethius you're a such a bitch, your poor husband, blah, blah, blah. Thank God my (FSU) wife is nothing like you." None of those posters is still married to his "wonderful wife". Yet, my poor husband still comes home to a wife who greets him at the door with a kiss, a squeeze, and a smile.
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Maybe he has a woman that is worth doing all those things?
This is normally the case, no? ;)
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Quoting the post in your response would help. It doesn't matter since my question is still on topic with your response.
Since I responded to the post immediately preceding mine, I assumed posters have the grey matter to follow.
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This is normally the case, no? ;)
I hope so! hah
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Hmm, well, pitbull's husband has posted here about what a wonderful gem she is. He, like her, is very well educated, and he has a great career. They have a beautiful child, and, I mean, beautiful, I'm not embellishing. You don't live with her, so you don't know pitbull's disposition.
Be careful with those statements, cal. I used to read the same, "Boethius you're a such a bitch, your poor husband, blah, blah, blah. Thank God my (FSU) wife is nothing like you." None of those posters is still married to his "wonderful wife". Yet, my poor husband still comes home to a wife who greets him at the door with a kiss, a squeeze, and a smile.
May you have lots of kisses, squeezes and smiles in your life!
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Well, my reality is the thruth of course! Cause I said so. Just take it on faith :D
I can't argue with that. I'm a believer. :P
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Be careful with those statements, cal. I used to read the same, "Boethius you're a such a bitch, your poor husband, blah, blah, blah. Thank God my (FSU) wife is nothing like you." None of those posters is still married to his "wonderful wife". Yet, my poor husband still comes home to a wife who greets him at the door with a kiss, a squeeze, and a smile.
Exactly, and where are these guys now?
Actually I've noticed that people with long happy marriages on RWD tend to agree with each other. While those who crash and burn and jump from fiancee to fiancee and from wife to wife are in opposition as a group (generally speaking, with some notable exceptions both ways)
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[size=78%]women that love their husbands and have no need for such forums?[/size]
I have to say that the site that really has captured my wife's interest these days is Pinterest ;) She finds it much more enjoyable than forums. C'est la vie.
Now, the whole thing about career and kids is something that varies from family to family. I would be more than happy for my wife to find a high paying job. The challenge was her English: when she arrived, she knew zero English as she has studied German. Now, she can hold her own in a conversation, but it will take some more studying before she is capable of writing fluently in English. Now, her focus for the next few years will be children, and after that I expect that she will either seek to upgrade her qualifications or perhaps study for a new profession.
Has nothing to do with MOB or not MOB, just the challenges that face most people immigrating to a new country and families doing their best to balance children and work and bills to be paid...
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I have to say that the site that really has captured my wife's interest these days is Pinterest ;) She finds it much more enjoyable than forums. C'est la vie.
Now, the whole thing about career and kids is something that varies from family to family. I would be more than happy for my wife to find a high paying job. The challenge was her English: when she arrived, she knew zero English as she has studied German. Now, she can hold her own in a conversation, but it will take some more studying before she is capable of writing fluently in English. Now, her focus for the next few years will be children, and after that I expect that she will either seek to upgrade her qualifications or perhaps study for a new profession.
Has nothing to do with MOB or not MOB, just the challenges that face most people immigrating to a new country and families doing their best to balance children and work and bills to be paid...
I hope your wife finds something that she can "own" outside of raising a family. I have seen retired people sit around the house and almost lose their identity. It isn't fun to watch nor, I can imagine, live.
I think we all need something like that in order to stay healthy and happy.
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I hope your wife finds something that she can "own" outside of raising a family. I have seen retired people sit around the house and almost lose their identity. It isn't fun to watch nor, I can imagine, live.
I think we all need something like that in order to stay healthy and happy.
What exactly are you saying? What she can "own"? Yes, she paints, she takes photos, she does the occasional contract in her line of work, but she won't be rushing off to work when we have a newborn baby at home in a few months :-\ Then again, I am fortunate as I qualify for a generous parental leave...
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Touché Muzh.
Let's go back to GQ's original post.
http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=15676.msg323549#msg323549 (http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=15676.msg323549#msg323549)
Every example he cited has been posted on this forum at some point. So, uh, yeah. It is reality. Unless, of course, the man posting the example cited was lying.
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What exactly are you saying? What she can "own"? Yes, she paints, she takes photos, she does the occasional contract in her line of work, but she won't be rushing off to work when we have a newborn baby at home in a few months :-\ Then again, I am fortunate as I qualify for a generous parental leave...
Yeah, I was saying she needed something just for herself like the painting.
Forgot to mention congrats, Misha. :)
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but she won't be rushing off to work when we have a newborn baby at home in a few months :-\
Congratulations.
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What exactly are you saying? What she can "own"? Yes, she paints, she takes photos, she does the occasional contract in her line of work, but she won't be rushing off to work when we have a newborn baby at home in a few months :-\ Then again, I am fortunate as I qualify for a generous parental leave...
Misha, this is wonderful news, congratulations! Are you having a girl, just like every RWD-er who had a baby recently ;D
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Misha, this is wonderful news, congratulations! Are you having a girl, just like every RWD-er who had a baby recently ;D
Thank you. The ultrasound technician told us it is likely to be a girl. We are both very happy and are now painting our second bedroom to make a nursery ;)
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Thank you. The ultrasound technician told us it is likely to be a girl. We are both very happy and are now painting our second bedroom to make a nursery ;)
Congrats. ;)
Just wait, nothing can prepare you for it no matter how much you read and think you know.
Now, off to clean a butt (again) before bed.
Oh, and check out this; http://www.4moms.com/mamaroo It's just the coolest swing/bouncer thing there is.
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Thank you. The ultrasound technician told us it is likely to be a girl. We are both very happy and are now painting our second bedroom to make a nursery ;)
Fantastic news, congratulations.
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I used to read the same, "Boethius you're a such a bitch, your poor husband, blah, blah, blah. Thank God my (FSU) wife is nothing like you." None of those posters is still married to his "wonderful wife". Yet, my poor husband still comes home to a wife who greets him at the door with a kiss, a squeeze, and a smile.
Recipe for a happy marriage: find a bitch and do not care about her bitching.
Sigh... seems to be my case... :)
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That's what forums are for. Direct her here. >:D Then, as in my case, she will be sweet and caring to her husband.
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That's what forums are for. Direct her here. >:D Then, as in my case, she will be sweet and caring to you.
Too late. I get addicted to her bitching :rolleyes:
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Yep, but that's where you are the same as the majority and where GBQ is different.
and, you would know that how exactly? ;D
If the majority were exactly like me, you Russian ladies would be in an orgasmic emotional state 24/7.. guaranteed. 8) There would be no need for RW fora, or complaining.. (imagine that.. an RW with zero complaints).. yes, it would seem as if you had been touch by the Hand of God himself... only slightly exaggerated...
Ranetka, I'm sorry you had to go through something painful for you. If you admire GQ, that's fine and dandy. The way he describes his wife and marriage is admirable. His situation (or mine, or...) is simply not all that different than many who have gone before or after. And a few of those very close to identical have been listed in this thread. I hope these are not truly the few, the proud, the exceptional.
And that's (part of) the point of the thread.
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What exactly are you saying? What she can "own"? Yes, she paints, she takes photos, she does the occasional contract in her line of work, but she won't be rushing off to work when we have a newborn baby at home in a few months :-\ Then again, I am fortunate as I qualify for a generous parental leave...
WOW!!! Congratulations Misha. I do mean that sincerely! May she come into this world happy and peaceful...
*Alexandra* is taken just so you know... ;)
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and, you would know that how exactly? ;D
If the majority were exactly like me, you Russian ladies would be in an orgasmic emotional state 24/7.. guaranteed.
Ranetka, I'm sorry you had to go through something painful for you. If you admire GQ, that's fine and dandy. The way he describes his wife and marriage is admirable. His situation (or mine, or...) is simply not all that different than many who have gone before or after.
Well like most of people here since most of us have not met others in real life I make my judgement based 100% on what people write.
When I read something I consider outstanding (good or bad) or rather sad but typical I tend to remember that. Where written word is concerned I have a memory suitable for a large pack of elephants.
My assumption about you may well change with time. So far there's no reason for that.
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My assumption about you may well change with time. So far there's no reason for that.
:ROFL:
Don't put yourself out.
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WOW!!! Congratulations Misha. I do mean that sincerely! May she come into this world happy and peaceful...
*Alexandra* is taken just so you know... ;)
Thank you!
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:ROFL:
Don't put yourself out.
Eh? Is it American English? Only speak English English sorry (insert your own smile here, I do not have this one)
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Congrats. ;)
Just wait, nothing can prepare you for it no matter how much you read and think you know.
Now, off to clean a butt (again) before bed.
Oh, and check out this; http://www.4moms.com/mamaroo (http://www.4moms.com/mamaroo) It's just the coolest swing/bouncer thing there is.
Thanks. That is pretty cool! I am just trying to get as much done at work before May and then will be able to go a few months without much sleep :)
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If the majority were exactly like me, you Russian ladies would be in an orgasmic state 24/7.. guaranteed. 8) There would be no need for RW fora, or complaining.. (imagine that.. an RW with zero complaints).. yes, it would seem as if you had been touch by the Hand of God himself... only slightly exaggerated...
You need to compare notes with ML. When you done let me know who is holding the current record.
Чмоки.
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Reality can't be cynical.
True. Did I ever say it was?
I said GQ is cynical.
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The old timers try to debunk, sometimes unsuccessfully. ;D
The point you raise Dave is extremely valid. No arguing that.
However, my comment was along the lines of the MOBer zeroing on the 'traditional' RW who will make home cozy and cook tasty dishes. The potential tinderbox being that the RW would like to spread her wings, as in going back to school or getting a job, and the MOBer felling betrayed by her taking advantage of his 'sacrifice.'
Fair enough. Yes, we do tend to read/hear about such "zeroings" often. The tinderbox tends to (generally) weed those out mostly before arriving at the point of marriage though, doesn't it?
And yes, there have been a number of crash and burn "betrayals", many ash remnants remaining alive and well in the archives here.
There are also many who get married, *seem* happy and vanish - the forum having served it's purpose. A multitude more than those of us who hang around with the intent of assisting others. Perhaps I am an ostrich with ample sand nearby, but I refuse to believe, yet anyway, that there is only a handful of truly decent men in a sea of MOB crap.
I do admit there have been many an idiot who have passed through (or in the process of passing through) these not so hallowed halls... and people like to argue about virtually any topic on an anonymous forum.
Before my wife came here she said she wanted to have a child and be a stay-at-home mom (until school age) before going back to work. We discussed this clearly and I told her that as long as the finances held, I wouldn't mind at all. When she got here she wanted to do some work while we 'practiced' of the procreation thingy. I asked her if she wanted to go to school instead and try to get her license. She had her plans and I knew it was best for her to do things at her own pace.
It was not easy but in the end it worked great for us. I'm about to retire and she is starting her career. Some of our friends asked if we planned it this way. Looking back, it does seem like we did but it just a big coincidence.
*Very cool*, Muzh. A classic example of a *family* functioning together. And... Isn't that the point of all of this? Man, I want to believe it is - for the majority.
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True. Did I ever say it was?
I said GQ is cynical.
A cynic generally believes human nature is not motivated by good. That's not what GQ posted. As I linked, he responded to particular "themes" on the forum. He may be guilty of over generalization, however, I don't think that equates to cynicism.
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You need to compare notes with ML. When you done let me know who is holding the current record.
Чмоки.
Okay, try elation if you find "orgasmic" distasteful..
Eh? Is it American English? Only speak English English sorry (insert your own smile here, I do not have this one)
Translation.. Don't overly exert yourself in an effort to amend your opinion. ;)
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...
I do apologize for discussing a member but the whole thread seems to be about it .
I do would like to acknowledge the kind words said in this thread about my marriage...Ranetka, pitbull, Boethius. That means a heck of a lot more coming from the ladies themselves. So, thank you....
But I do want to reiterate, the credit goes not to me but solely to my wife. Nothing I have done in my marriage with her would've amount to anything was it not for her steadiness to stay the course of what we/she needed to do. There were trying times for her and I'm just elated I was around her life when she crossed many of these difficult times.
The toughest part I think from my vantage point is what Ranetka mentioned. We did had to commit to the notion *our* family life will need to come in at a delayed time. Luckily for both of us, we've recently arrived to that destination unscathed and raring to move forward accordingly.
The age disparity bothered me quite a bit. I remember groovlst asking me straight-up on one of those silly age threads, how, from my perspective do I handle this part of my relationship. I always had a great vision what I would like to do even before she arrived. When she did and we started moving forward, it seemed more obvious to me that wish was resonating even more louder with each passing day. I dare to say, and proud to declare, wifey is gifted as a person and reeks with untapped talent to make something of herself, for herself. I really wanted nothing more in my life to see my wife grow as a person not just as a wife, but a well-rounded, independent, fulfilled individual. She is that today.
We still have challenges and are still on course with our lives' aspirations. Much to do, much to share and so much of life to live for. It feels incredibly good when *love* is deeply rooted for all the right reasons.
As for all the other trivial stuff, i.e. domestic chores..c'mon now. I would be doing those things even if I wasn't married. The only differnce when I got married was getting used to ironing some of wifey's delicate shirts. Not sure what the point is for having so much intricate pleats and folds in places they aren't necessary to be in.
My wife once told me that when she would stumble upon a tough phase during her studying years, she would always tell herself that whatever it is she faces it most definitely can't be anything compared to what I had to go through during my acclimation years. It's also so, so good to be each other's source of inspiration to top it all off. Maybe the fact I had gone through what my wife faced, far less accomodating that she has relatively, was a blessing for both of us.
These times are behind us now. My wife's life and future, and all those close to her in her life, including me, is both bright and promising - and all credit belongs to her. I just merely occupied her heart and thoughts during that voyage...
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A cynic generally believes human nature is not motivated by good. That's not what GQ posted. As I linked, he responded to particular "themes" on the forum. He may be guilty of over generalization, however, I don't think that equates to cynicism.
Nor do I. GQ's list was/is fine.
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Thank you. The ultrasound technician told us it is likely to be a girl. We are both very happy and are now painting our second bedroom to make a nursery ;)
Congrats Misha! All the best.
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It sounds like you did what many do and I doubt it was a coincidence.
All the members that I chat with offline, none of them has an idea that they are marrying a woman that will be kept home and baking cookies. Some that are planning to have children do want the mother to stay home in the childs early years. That is a traditional custom when the finances allows it.
Where does this propoganda come from that the average AM wants a FSUW to stay at home scrubbing floors. I have seen none of this with our forum members.
This is sort of the point.
I have yet to meet anyone off line, except for JR, oh yeah, and my wife met Mobob, his lovely wife, and the late dbneeley's wife when mobob was in the Donetsk area a while back. She had nothing but glowing commentary about them all as well.
No one that I know, online anyway, has expected either their wives to stay at home and scrub floors OR go out into the world to slave at some menial job.
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A cynic generally believes human nature is not motivated by good. That's not what GQ posted. As I linked, he responded to particular "themes" on the forum. He may be guilty of over generalization, however, I don't think that equates to cynicism.
I stated in my last post that I wasn't referring to GQ as being a cynic in general.
I was referring to GQ, as being cynical about the entire MOB process.
There is no one narrow definition of being cynical.
- believing human nature is not motivated by good is one.
- having a rooted distrust or dislike of human beings and their society is another (misanthrope).
- looking on the dark side of things, believing that the worst will happen (pessimistic)
The third definition is the one that comes closest to what I had in mind and once again, pertaining to the MOB business, not to life in general.
BO, you don't have to speak on GQ's behalf. Just ask him if he is not indeed cynical about the entire MOB business.
It's really quite simple.
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It's not about staying home and scrubbing floors. But very, very few immigrants get off a plane and get a job in their desired field. They need to be retrained. That takes time, re-education, money, and a lot of non financial spousal support. The question to ask is not how many spouses are working, but rather, how many are working at jobs comparable to those they left behind. If they were students, has the spouse encouraged, even pushed them, back to study?
Incidentally, part of dbneely's decision to stay in Ukraine was that his wife was a physician, head of a department, IIRC, and he said she would not be able to retrain and obtain a similar position on a US relocation.
CM, GQ is reading this thread, and I am not speaking on his behalf.
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Ranetka, this is spot on! Couldn't have said it better! You've described the difference between a real man and an average MOB-er really well. Unfortunately, MOB-ers are just not equipped to understand
Some of us must be extremely fortunate to somehow have overcome those odds. I just can't understand how... never mind.. I'm not equipped .. I'll take it on faith! >:D
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Some of us must be extremely fortunate to somehow have overcome those odds. I just can't understand how... never mind.. I'm not equipped .. I'll take it on faith! >:D
I think you are a very promising case, Daveman! Somehow I don,t see you as a MOBer. However u never did what u promised me and now i seem to be stuck with getting my RWD fix almost every day! >:(
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I think you are a very promising case, Daveman! Somehow I don,t see you as a MOBer. However u never did what u promised me and now i seem to be stuck with getting my RWD fix almost every day! >:(
Daveman, please fulfill your promise to Pitbull.
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It's not about staying home and scrubbing floors. But very, very few immigrants get off a plane and get a job in their desired field. They need to be retrained. That takes time, re-education, money, and a lot of non financial spousal support. The question to ask is not how many spouses are working, but rather, how many are working at jobs comparable to those they left behind.
Aside from my wife and one other, I didn't meet anyone who actually WAS working in her chosen field or her field of education. Certainly there are many who do have a chosen professional career in the FSU, but mostly prior to each meeting, I communicated with many who were educated in a specific area of expertise yet working at some other job - often menial or atleast far below their education level.
If they were students, has the spouse encouraged, even pushed them, back to study?
Encouraged -yes, persistent encouragement - yes, push - absolutely not... pushing often has the exact opposite effect. Plus she's quite capable of determining her own comfort level and pace.
Student age was well off my radar. But, still the question remains, and I'll just ask it outright...
Which of us here would NOT do anything you could to assist your spouse in achieving her goals? education? Using your network contacts to get her a job or her foot in the door? Wait for her to come home from a 10 hour days and toss a newspaper in her face?
Incidentally, part of dbneely's decision to stay in Ukraine was that his wife was a physician, head of a department, IIRC, and he said she would not be able to retrain and obtain a similar position on a US relocation.
My wife is currently in Ukraine and has been for 3.5 weeks. She had the opportunity to go for a contract which would have greatly upped her career status (excellent pay for Ukraine, but, more for her personal growth than anything else). They didn't get it. So she'll be back Monday night. If the company had been granted the contract (which may still happen, though who knows?) we would have relocated to Ukraine for two years or more. I can write code from anywhere, and I am mostly comfortable in the environment - so not much stress or sacrifice for me, actually. In fact, I would have enjoyed it.
It still may come to fruition near summer.
but yet.. that's part and parcel of the brown nosing MOB'er isn't it? ;D
Also. Jone doesn't mind relocating - silly hiney kisser.
Some of this really cracks me up.
...
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I think you are a very promising case, Daveman! Somehow I don,t see you as a MOBer. However u never did what u promised me and now i seem to be stuck with getting my RWD fix almost every day! >:(
HAHAHA!!! Excellent! Actually, I stated flatly that I would NOT do that which you now accuse me of not doing!
Besides, take it as encouragement, prodding, or pushing for your personal growth in learning to deal with the complexity and adversity of this Asylum... you'll be angry at me, but I really have your best interest at heart... ;)
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I stated in my last post that I wasn't referring to GQ as being a cynic in general.
I was referring to GQ, as being cynical about the entire MOB process.
There is no one narrow definition of being cynical.
- believing human nature is not motivated by good is one.
- having a rooted distrust or dislike of human beings and their society is another (misanthrope).
- looking on the dark side of things, believing that the worst will happen (pessimistic)
The third definition is the one that comes closest to what I had in mind and once again, pertaining to the MOB business, not to life in general.
BO, you don't have to speak on GQ's behalf. Just ask him if he is not indeed cynical about the entire MOB business.
It's really quite simple.
Apparently this is proving far too complex for you...chrissakes, you've been hounding the same 'cynical' theme for pages now and thugging at Boethius' skirt line like a little child asking for a silly lollipop.
If you're stuck on 1st gear and the only thing you can gather from the topic course (original response to Daveman's query) is *cynism* then by good lawrd you need more than just a lillipop.
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I do would like to acknowledge the kind words said in this thread about my marriage...Ranetka, pitbull, Boethius. That means a heck of a lot more coming from the ladies themselves. So, thank you....
But I do want to reiterate, the credit goes not to me but solely to my wife. Nothing I have done in my marriage with her would've amount to anything was it not for her steadiness to stay the course of what we/she needed to do. There were trying times for her and I'm just elated I was around her life when she crossed many of these difficult times.
The toughest part I think from my vantage point is what Ranetka mentioned. We did had to commit to the notion *our* family life will need to come in at a delayed time. Luckily for both of us, we've recently arrived to that destination unscathed and raring to move forward accordingly.
The age disparity bothered me quite a bit. I remember groovlst asking me straight-up on one of those silly age threads, how, from my perspective do I handle this part of my relationship. I always had a great vision what I would like to do even before she arrived. When she did and we started moving forward, it seemed more obvious to me that wish was resonating even more louder with each passing day. I dare to say, and proud to declare, wifey is gifted as a person and reeks with untapped talent to make something of herself, for herself. I really wanted nothing more in my life to see my wife grow as a person not just as a wife, but a well-rounded, independent, fulfilled individual. She is that today.
We still have challenges and are still on course with our lives' aspirations. Much to do, much to share and so much of life to live for. It feels incredibly good when *love* is deeply rooted for all the right reasons.
As for all the other trivial stuff, i.e. domestic chores..c'mon now. I would be doing those things even if I wasn't married. The only differnce when I got married was getting used to ironing some of wifey's delicate shirts. Not sure what the point is for having so much intricate pleats and folds in places they aren't necessary to be in.
My wife once told me that when she would stumble upon a tough phase during her studying years, she would always tell herself that whatever it is she faces it most definitely can't be anything compared to what I had to go through during my acclimation years. It's also so, so good to be each other's source of inspiration to top it all off. Maybe the fact I had gone through what my wife faced, far less accomodating that she has relatively, was a blessing for both of us.
These times are behind us now. My wife's life and future, and all those close to her in her life, including me, is both bright and promising - and all credit belongs to her. I just merely occupied her heart and thoughts during that voyage...
And this *is* what it's all about, no?? Congrats on the family addition as well. ;D
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Daveman, please fulfill your promise to Pitbull.
You see, Daveman? The old gentleman is asking nicely! :flowers:
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You see, Daveman? The old gentleman is asking nicely! :flowers:
But he hasn't proffered a reasonable bri... er... deal thus far... >:D
I did forget to mention a distinct flaw in my character... I could, potentially that is, be bribed with Carrot Cake! :luv:
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My God! I posted yesterday at this time, and 4-5 pages have been added. It is good to have such spirited threads.
...I refuse to believe, yet anyway, that there is only a handful of truly decent men in a sea of MOB crap.
Thanks Dave for highlighting this point because it is exactly what got my goat.
I apologize for diverting from the string of posts about how GQ mentored his wife. I understand that this makes the RW posters gush; however, this is our job as husbands when we bring our wives to a strange land. So why the gushing? GQ did his job and I assert there are many other men doing the same - they simply don't write about it so much.
Let's consider one example. The last I knew Turbo's wife VWRW was earning the highest marks in a difficult business curriculum with plans for more, much more study. Does Turbo log onto RWD and toot his horn? To the contrary, he is self-deprecating and I believe some of your dimwits are taking his words at face value rather than appreciating the truth. Yet GQ would probably call him a social reject or old geyser.
Another example, JB's wife. She is a professor in mathematics. I select these two guys because they are older than me, but not much. :D There are many other such examples, and I assert they are not the exception. To make judgments about people you have not met and never will meet is not intellectually vigorous; in fact, it makes people who do that as overly emotional.
GQ insulted my community, namely RWD, saying that the majority are social rejects and old geysers. What the hell? This got my goat.
GQ is trying to back away from his preposterous insult by stating:
I am on record Gator in case you are having difficulty reading these days. The MAJORITY of the AM/FSUW couples I have seen are comprised of men who are old geezers and social rejects. You want me to say that again?
That was Reply #60 in this thread. But what did GQ write much earlier in Reply # 1, the one that got my goat.
The majority of them (yes, not all) are social rejects and old geezers. You can literally see that in their daily postings.
".....their daily postings." Folks, he is not talking about the men at the AM-RW social gatherings he reluctantly attended. He is talking about men who post. And that would be RWD, namely you and me.
So GQ, if you are backing away from what you asserted in Reply #1, please let us know. Or do you have secret files on each of us? Or perhaps you are a psychic? Or perhaps I am correct for saying that you have raised the bar for insolence.
A couple of final points.
Got to her senses one day and wondered what's gotten into her for being married to a man 40 years her senior?
Why do you constantly twist facts? That would be like me saying you are 5' 4" when I know you are short but not that short.
Final point.
So you are either senile or just a two-bit liar. To me, you are both.
I have many faults, but dishonesty is not one of them. I am an honorable man, and my word is my honor. I now have problems with your delusional arrogance, but you will make it worse by calling me a liar.
I had no real problem with your list of 17 MOB "No No's." Your attitude towards me and the majority of RWD is that of a jerk. Be a jerk if you want. But what does that say about you? Boethius suggests your attitude reflects the fact that you came from a third world country and have seen good people taken advantaged of. I suggest that you not let this blur your observations nor cloud your judgment.
Have a good day.
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Misha and Ade,
I congratulate you on the expected and recent flyovers by the stork.
My kids were my greatest source of joy. I wish only that I had more, hence my attraction to RW with lovable kids. They are precious. Try to remember that when walking with her cuddled in your arms in the middle of the night.
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...I have many faults...
Yes, I know.
...but dishonesty is not one of them....
Why is it the first thing a guilty man pleads is he is innocent. LOL
...I had no real problem with your list of 17 MOB "No No's." Your attitude towards me and the majority of RWD is that of a jerk....
You really had scaled down to an even lower pathetic state. Subliminally calling the troops? LOL. I didn't think it was possible, but yup, there you go...
....Be a jerk if you want....
LOL. After parsing through your latest diatribe, I just can't help but laugh, LOL.
... But what does that say about you?...
That I'm a sexy thang.. >:D ...and what does that say about you - nah, forget it.
Time's a wastin' man...make hey and make the best of the last few, know what I mean? Why spend it by getting your panties all tied up over a message board...must be tough to be so irrelevant all of the sudden, eh?
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Let me see if I have this right: this GQClown expends an enormous amount of time, money an effort, even an WMVM apparently, to go half way around the world and snatch a hot young [woman], fished from Ukraine. Geez ... I've never heard of anyone doing that before! :clapping: :clapping: :clapping: This guy is really breaking new ground. He is so totally not an MOB-er :D :D What a hero!!
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Let me see if I have this right: this GQClown expends an enormous amount of time, money an effort, even an WMVM apparently, to go half way around the world and snatch a hot young [woman], fished from Ukraine. Geez ... I've never heard of anyone doing that before! :clapping: :clapping: :clapping: This guy is really breaking new ground. He is so totally not an MOB-er :D :D What a hero!!
You knew the band of social rejects will soon be coming out of their holes...you could at least get your stupid story straight.
Didn't old fart Gator drill you first? Now go fetch the old man a glass of water...
Let's see who's next, LOL.
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You knew the band of social rejects will soon be coming out of their holes...you could at least get your stupid story straight.
Didn't old fart Gator drill you first? Now go fetch the old man a glass of water...
Let's see who's next, LOL.
Did you get a hot young [woman] from Ukraine or not? Yes or no? That's the only relevant fact regarding you
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Did you get a hot young [woman] from Ukraine or not? Yes or no? That's the only relevant fact regarding you
While I am sure GQ's wife is attractive, I think we need to draw the line when referring to wives or girlfriends as a hot piece of ass.
Wives and girlfriends are off limits.
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While I am sure GQ's wife is attractive, I think we need to draw the line when referring to wives or girlfriends as a hot piece of ass.
Wives and girlfriends are off limits.
You gotta get the facts straight, Live. That's no insult to anyone.
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Your posts have violated several of the forum's TOS. You may wish to refamiliarize yourself with them before posting again.
You will also note a spouse's country of origin in a poster's profile, if a poster chooses to share that information.
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You gotta get the facts straight, Live. That's no insult to anyone.
Actually, it is. It's insulting to *RWD*.
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Did you get a hot young [******] from Ukraine or not? Yes or no? That's the only relevant fact regarding you
Speaking of relevancy, Gator's latest sidekick is another fine example of the typical MOBers..
I just knew sooner than later they'll come marching in and prove my point all by themselves.
Next. This one was too easy.
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GQ,
You are up early, endeavoring to shout another round of insults before heading to work. It is apparent that you enjoy this.
You really had scaled down to an even lower pathetic state. Subliminally calling the troops? LOL. I didn't think it was possible, but yup, there you go...
Call the troops? I merely pointed out (using your words from this thread) that you called the majority of RWD posters "social rejects or old geysers." And you do not deny insulting the majority of RWD
That I'm a sexy thang.. >:D ...and what does that say about you - nah, forget it.
My long history would surprise you (God bless their sweet souls). I admit that I approach the age when having sex will be akin to playing billiards with a rope. :D I have been told that hormones change such that one is indifferent. OTOH consider my deceased father-in-law who at age 92 consummated his marriage to a 65-yo, and sadly he died a few months later (us sad, he happy). I know it is a bad visual, and you would probably criticize the two of them for finding fleeting happiness together.
Why spend it by getting your panties all tied up over a message board...must be tough to be so irrelevant all of the sudden, eh?
Again pot...kettle....black. Please skim all your posts for the past two years. I see an agitated man. What do you see?
Regarding my posts, I still seem relaxed with life, yet I admit that I demonstrate less tolerance for judgmental people, especially the sanctimonious type.
As people age, many become wiser and develop a deep respect for life, particularly life's many blessings. Have you ever noticed the contentment many seniors display? And others just become miserable, bitter old people living alone. Your attitude suggests that you are headed for the second option.
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Let me add this up:
- At RW social gatherings, you can find nothing of interest to discuss with any of the husbands.
- You like cats.
- You iron wife's clothes, including her frilly blouses.
- Though unexpressed, you probably love quiche.
- You marry a woman who towers in height over you.
Yes, indeed, you are different from the vast majority of men.
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Misha and Ade,
I congratulate you on the expected and recent flyovers by the stork.
My kids were my greatest source of joy. I wish only that I had more, hence my attraction to RW with lovable kids. They are precious. Try to remember that when walking with her cuddled in your arms in the middle of the night.
Thanks Gator! My wife and I are certainly looking forward to it :)
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Thanks Gator! My wife and I are certainly looking forward to it :)
Misha, my hearty congratulations as well! You do know what causes that right? :D
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Misha, my hearty congratulations as well! You do know what causes that right? :D
Thanks. As for the latter comment, practice makes perfect :P
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Thanks. As for the latter comment, practice makes perfect :P
Becareful, sometimes they come in pairs and repeatedly and there isn't no sending them back ;D
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Becareful, sometimes they come in pairs and repeatedly and there isn't no sending them back ;D
LOL! God willing, we will take them all ;)
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GQ,
You are up early, endeavoring to shout another round of insults before heading to work. It is apparent that you enjoy this...
I just enjoy life altogether, you know. Unlike you who get all riled up on such silly things like a message board. But hey, not everyone can be cool like me...
...Call the troops? I merely pointed out (using your words from this thread) that you called the majority of RWD posters "social rejects or old geysers." And you do not deny insulting the majority of RWD ...
Like I said, if the shoe fits. You and others like you can identify with the list I posted as a response to Daveman's inquiry - then BINGO! Ching-ching...Truth hurts, man.
...My long history would surprise you (God bless their sweet souls). I admit that I approach the age when having sex will be akin to playing billiards with a rope. :D I have been told that hormones change such that one is indifferent. OTOH consider my deceased father-in-law who at age 92 consummated his marriage to a 65-yo, and sadly he died a few months later (us sad, he happy). I know it is a bad visual, and you would probably criticize the two of them for finding fleeting happiness together....
Then you should've know better that even your FIL had a 27 year old limit...you were flying over 30 close to 40, Gator. WTF? (In our biz...lol...that acronym stands for 'What's the Forecast!")
...Again pot...kettle....black. Please skim all your posts for the past two years. I see an agitated man. What do you see?..
I see a sexy man. I see an old fart, worn-out, stooge when I glance your way.
But no need. I just merely call things for what they are. Again - YOU are an old fart, unless you'd like to believe otherwise then that's up to you. MANY , maybe the vast majority, of the folks involved in this venture - and even those who posts in this very forum - are social rejects. Why is this so tough for you to admit. If they can relate to the list, like you did, they're either an old fart or a social reject. Simple.
...Regarding my posts, I still seem relaxed with life, yet I admit that I demonstrate less tolerance for judgmental people, especially the sanctimonious type....
Relaxed? LOL. Dude you came royally unglued when you read my list because it hit home like the Chelyabinsk meteor.
Again....it isn't *being* judgmental for anyone to state facts and reality. You are an old fart! What really bites is it is very likely every single person can see that, too...especially those close to you.
LOL...if you really want to *help* newbies and this community at large - then start by telling everyone EXACTLY what they shouldn't be doing BASED on YOUR personal experience. Don't be so obtuse and hypocritical. You are a walking 'what-not-to-do-and-be'...
You led your wife hunting with $$ and it blew right out of your butt. Then you have the fortitude to repeatedly announce the woman you wined and dined for 6 years running was good for nothing more than a travel companion. What do you expect when you throw money around in regions where the general population are collectively not as economically fortunate as the few? Then if that isn't enough, you turn right around right after your divorce and do the exact same thing again except this time you do it with someone who doesn't even speak English. WTF? (What's the Forecast?)
Do you ever stopped and wonder that things like Scams, Fraud, etc...are cause by the earth's grimes like you? What do you think sits in these people's mind when they see foreign scumbags like you swivel monies around for their personal favor and gain in their home countries?
Then you even filed a K-1 as a trial run to boot because she can't qualify for a tourist visa. That's breaking the law, chomp. Do you freakin' honestly believe you don't symbolize all thats wrong in this silly venture?
Then you come here and tell me all that's wrong with ME?
You're blatantly irrelevant old man. All your self-acclaimed accomplishments in life gave you nothing but an empty bag of regrets. That's a freakin' sad way to go into the sunset old man.
This last bit is just freaking funny:
"As people age, many become wiser and develop a deep respect for life, particularly life's many blessings. Have you ever noticed the contentment many seniors display? And others just become miserable, bitter old people living alone. Your attitude suggests that you are headed for the second option..."
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Before anybody got banned can I politely suggest to the moderators to kindly move this thread into Anything goes section?
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Before anybody got banned can I politely suggest to the moderators to kindly move this thread into Anything goes section?
Thanks, Ranetka, but I am not so riled as to break the TOS, much less make shit up. For sure I will not attack wives. I even give the RW some leeway regarding righteous moralistic attitudes, but not men, especially men who claim to be superior.
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Before anybody got banned can I politely suggest to the moderators to kindly move this thread into Anything goes section?
Actually, from a completely non-emotional, non judgmental viewpoint, this is an *excellent* thread. Yes, it is over the top in some ways, and it is rather ugly in others, but there are many golden nuggets and a diamond or two here - perhaps covered in a bit of slimy residue, but nuggets none the less - in a variety of shapes and sizes.
I suggest that everyone take it down a notch or two and (quite a bit) less seriously.
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I just enjoy life altogether, you know. Unlike you who get all riled up on such silly things like a message board. But hey, not everyone can be cool like me...
Thank God not everyone is like you. And your positive attitude shows clearly in your acrimonious posts. [sarcasm]
Then you should've know better that even your FIL had a 27 year old limit...you were flying over 30 close to 40, Gator.
Again, making shit up! It was just over 30, 32 IIRC. While some are succeeding with an even a greater age disparity, I agree that it was too much I knew the risks involved, and I accepted the negative consequences Did I come to the board and complain that she misled me? No. I am a well adjusted man who takes responsibility for his actions, remedies the mess, and moves on.
I see a sexy man. I see an old fart, worn-out, stooge when I glance your way.
You really enjoy throwing insults at people. People do that when a) they have limited intellectual capacity or b) they grew up in that environment and have not yet learned to be better, or c) they are smart but antisocial.
If they can relate to the list, like you did, they're either an old fart or a
social reject. Simple.
Maybe it is the lack of intellectual capacity, because you keep repeating the same 4-letter word and can not think of a surrogate. Please count the number of times you say "old fart." I do see that you have used "scumbag." Yes, that's another glorious word demonstrating the depth of your intellect.
LOL...if you really want to *help* newbies and this community at large - then start by telling everyone EXACTLY what they shouldn't be doing BASED on YOUR personal experience. Don't be so obtuse and hypocritical. You are a walking 'what-not-to-do-and-be'...
My Moscow woman was perfect for me after the end of my 25-year marriage. I am happy for the time we had together. Those RW who knew far more than you say my mistake was not marrying her sooner when she was first ready and committed rather than dragging it out and even interrupting it.
You led your wife hunting with $$ and it blew right out of your butt.
You don't know. On my first trip I stayed in an expensive Moscow hotel but I did not fly women in. And you? After that I became fairly frugal, except that I enjoy dining and do not mind paying for interesting, well prepared cuisine. And while I consider myself a generous man, a couple of RW have told me that RM are more generous. :D
You have mentioned $$ several times. If this bothers you, I suggest you work smarter and harder rather than wasting your time responding to posts from people holding up a mirror, or send your wive's blouses to a laundry (how much are you saving by ironing her clothes).
Then if that isn't enough, you turn right around right after your divorce and do
the exact same thing again except this time you do it with someone who doesn't
even speak English. WTF? (What's the Forecast?)
The lack of English was an obstacle and we overcame it regarding our relationship. However, it manifested itself in another way that I never expected, namely the ability to befriend AW. A lesson for anyone still reading this mess.
What do you think sits in these people's mind when they see foreign scumbags
like you swivel monies around for their personal favor and gain in their home
countries?
You are harboring animosity built I presume from your youth, as Boethius commented. I gave you advice before.
Then you even filed a K-1 as a trial run to boot because she can't qualify
for a tourist visa. That's breaking the law, chomp. Do you freakin' honestly
believe you don't symbolize all thats wrong in this silly venture?
Again you are wrong, wrong, wrong. She came here for a year, entering via a tourist visa. We never did a K-1.
You're blatantly irrelevant old man. All your self-acclaimed accomplishments in
life gave you nothing but an empty bag of regrets. That's a freakin' sad way to
go into the sunset old man.
Very judgmental Matty boy. I am not sure of this source as it sounds more like Voltaire: supposedly Jos Mart, the hero of Cuban independence, named the things that every man ought to do before he dies. He reportedly said: "Plant a tree, write a book, have a son." I have done these, a thousand trees, a book published by McGraw-Hill and used at 200 universities, and two sons (plus a stepson and stepdaughter). Where are you Matty Boy? Tic.... toc.... tic.....toc.
"As people age, many become wiser and develop a deep respect for life, particularly life's many blessings. Have you ever noticed the contentment many seniors display? And others just become miserable, bitter old people living alone. Your attitude suggests that you are headed for the second option..."
I should have known this would go over your head.
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Actually, from a completely non-emotional, non judgmental viewpoint, this is an *excellent* thread. Yes, it is over the top in some ways, and it is rather ugly in others, but there are many golden nuggets and a diamond or two here - perhaps covered in a bit of slimy residue, but nuggets none the less - in a variety of shapes and sizes.
I suggest that everyone take it down a notch or two and (quite a bit) less seriously.
Seeking constructive substance, how about some suggestions for expanding GQ's list of what it takes to be a MOBer. Here's my quick thoughts:
1. Marrying someone more than 15 years your junior.
2. Marrying someone who barely started her university studies.
3. Marrying someone after only a couple of visits together.
4. Marrying someone who is vastly different in physical appearance than the women you normally date in America (such as standing 3-4 inches taller than you).
That would now give us a list of 20 ( combining the 2 in GQ's list that are virtually the same).
Any others, anyone.
I also believe that adding these 4 would define the vast majority of men as MOBers. It still does not establish that they are old geysers or social rejects. For that declaration, we must depend on the RWD members with supernatural powers.
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Speaking of relevancy, Gator's latest sidekick is another fine example of the typical MOBers..
I just knew sooner than later they'll come marching in and prove my point all by themselves.
Next. This one was too easy.
While his comment was crass and uncalled for, the point remains. Your situation doesn't appear to be different from any number of others to whom you refer as typical MOB'ers..
He may very well be a social reject by some arbitrary standard, but obviously it matters little as last year he celebrated his 10th anniversary:
http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=15063.msg307723#msg307723 (http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=15063.msg307723#msg307723)
You also denoted Misha as a social reject - who has been happily married for over five years. As far as his story goes, he lived and worked there for a time which would make him less of an MOB'er than most of us.
I still don't think MOB'er even applies because it's a meaningless label. Basically, I wanted to date/marry an FSUW. I pursued, dated, broke up, dated again, until I found someone with whom I really wanted to build a future. I did what I wanted to do and found someone who wishes to travel with me through this journey of life. That's what you did. Misha did. Muzh... the list goes on. That's the alpha and omega.
From a certain perspective I am an MOB'er, a wife importer, whatever. It makes no difference what label someone else places on it. Bottom line is that I'm quite happy with my life, my decisions, my history, all of it. My wife seems to be quite happy too. Other members are as well. I may be a social reject too. I couldn't care less - ignorance is bliss! heh.. At least it has never stopped me from going for - and getting - whatever I wanted.
You consider yourself unique and different. That's fine. So am I. The point is from at least one aspect - all who pursue/marry FSUW have something (or even a lot) in common. Label it MOB, or whatever. A decent analogy is a cruise. We took the same ride - we may not all be the same; we may neither like nor associate with others around us, we may have gotten off at different stops, but we are or were all on that same ship.
I think this has less to do with MOB and more with the social clusters which always manifest. RWD is no different. We have some core groups which face off from time to time. We have those orbiting on the fringe. It's amazing, nay, truly shocking that we have no differing opinions here.. :P
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Let me add this up:
- At RW social gatherings, you can find nothing of interest to discuss with any of the husbands.
- You like cats.
- You iron wife's clothes, including her frilly blouses.
- Though unexpressed, you probably love quiche.
- You marry a woman who towers in height over you.
Yes, indeed, you are different from the vast majority of men.
(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/clmontes/cowboy-shaking-head_zpsd1aa66c5.gif)
Hold on there pardner.
You have a problem with that?
I make excellent quiche and my kids love it. Besides I iron my wife's blouses when she is in a hurry and I have the time to do it. Also, I cook all the time. Finally, I have NO problems wearing a pink shirt.
It takes a REAL man to wear a pink shirt.
Having a little insecurity attack?
Because if you are trying to rub his nose, you are failing miserably.
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Misha, my hearty congratulations as well! You do know what causes that right? :D
Yea, same here. I just saw that. You are so lucky having a little girl.
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While his comment was crass and uncalled for, the point remains. Your situation doesn't appear to be different from any number of others to whom you refer as typical MOB'ers....
Here's how it is Daveman. You asked and challenge my statement from another thread on what *I* think of an MOBer is, I told you. You may agree or disagree, that's up to you. It IS my opinion of what an MOBer is.
You asked, I told you. If you have a problem with the response, or think it may be something you won't find acceptable, then I suggest you find a way to fight that battle with yourself...or next time, simply don't ask.
If you're only trying to start a dialogue about the subject for the forum, there you have it - multiple pages, andd from what I can see - you got what you paid for in folds, no? ;)
...He may very well be a social reject by some arbitrary standard, but obviously it matters little as last year he celebrated his 10th anniversary:
http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=15063.msg307723#msg307723 (http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=15063.msg307723#msg307723)
...
If you're going to dive into the archive, I suggest to dive a little deeper.
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... Your situation doesn't appear to be different from any number of others to whom you refer as typical MOB'ers..
... I did what I wanted to do and found someone who wishes to travel with me through this journey of life. That's what you did. Misha did. Muzh... the list goes on. That's the alpha and omega.
... You consider yourself unique and different. That's fine. So am I. The point is from at least one aspect - all who pursue/marry FSUW have something (or even a lot) in common... we are or were all on that same ship.
+1
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You also denoted Misha as a social reject - who has been happily married for over five years.
I have to say, though, the use of the term "social reject" seems a bit odd. What are we 16 and back in high school...
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Your situation doesn't appear to be different from any number of others to whom you refer as typical MOB'ers..
In all the ranting about GQ as the sanctimonious "AntiChrist II", this thread got off track. So, I went back to the OP, and GQ's response. GQ never posted he is "different". He was asked what is an MOB'er, and he responded. I don't think he ever said he is superior, even if he believes it (not making a statement, either way).
Note - I see I have X-posted with GQ.
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I still don't think MOB'er even applies because it's a meaningless label. Basically, I wanted to date/marry an FSUW. I pursued, dated, broke up, dated again, until I found someone with whom I really wanted to build a future. I did what I wanted to do and found someone who wishes to travel with me through this journey of life. That's what you did. Misha did. Muzh... the list goes on. That's the alpha and omega.
Daveman, I went back to the list and I think I know what GQ is referring to.
And then again I may be in left field.
Regardless, let me try.
I think he is making a distinction of what is a sociably adaptive man versus a man who has no clue.
The reference of the man obssessed with the goddess-like stature of RW and the severe antipathy towards western women because of their 'lack' of womaness, whatever that means denotes a type of person who is distinctively having problems adapting to their own social surroundings so they embark in this Odysseus-like travel to find acceptance.
I believe his argument is that there are men who can do it because they can and then there are men who must do it because there is no other alternative.
If that is his argument, then I can agree with his definition of an 'MOBer' as a social reject.
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OY! The irrelevant old man...
...Again, making shit up! It was just over 30, 32 IIRC....
...*IF I REMEMBER CORECTLY*?...You accuse me of making shit up then refute it with a statement containing a disclaimer? Try again...
.. While some are succeeding with an even a greater age disparity, I agree that it was too much I knew the risks involved, and I accepted the negative consequences Did I come to the board and complain that she misled me? No. I am a well adjusted man who takes responsibility for his actions, remedies the mess, and moves on. ...
LOL! Complain? You have absolutely NOTHING to complain about. That's exactly what I mean when I say you are ridiculously self-absorbed.
Mislead you? She NEVER misled you Gator. You just were/are incapable to assume a husband's bedroom role anymore then than you are NOW. You always knew it hence the trips, entertainment, etc...you had nothing left to give as a *man* to a woman. You were/are just hoping upon hope a woman will forego what is otherwise their very basic primal need.
LOL...misled you! What a croc! You're in a sad state of denial, you poor old fart.
...You really enjoy throwing insults at people...
Just to MOBers like you... :)
...Maybe it is the lack of intellectual capacity, because you keep repeating the same 4-letter word and can not think of a surrogate....
I'd use *Blowhard* but that would be a compliment for you, LOL.
...My Moscow woman was perfect for me after the end of my 25-year marriage...
I agree. I thought it was fitting considering how it ended. LOL. But, just as expected, you're too dense to learn simple lessons in life.
...On my first trip I stayed in an expensive Moscow hotel but I did not fly women in. And you?
3 of them...it was all on my trip report. One changed her mind who lived just outside Moscow proper, don't remember the name of the city. At the last minute, she didn't think she can bear knowing we'll be meeting in person and knowing I'll meeting others before and after her. As a result, I immediately ordered and sent flowers and thanked her for being honest with me in the end. She could've just gone through the whole thing knowing what she feels and got whatever she can for the experience - but didn't. Now, how cool is that, eh?
....After that I became fairly frugal...
Was that before or after you bought her a car because an Italian hunk caught a twinkle in her eye?
...You have mentioned $$ several times. If this bothers you, I suggest you work smarter and harder rather than wasting your time responding to posts from people holding up a mirror, or send your wive's blouses to a laundry (how much are you saving by ironing her clothes)....
For someone who houses a pro-dater, why am I not surpised that would come from you? That was a great example of what I'm talking about. Right there in that lone paragraph. You really have no clue.
What did your money do to your marriage and what did my personal touch do with mine? The answer is pretty darn evident.
...The lack of English was an obstacle and we overcame it regarding our relationship. However, it manifested itself in another way that I never expected, namely the ability to befriend AW. A lesson for anyone still reading this mess....
Yeah...you have now graduated to speaking to strangers in elevators while disregarding your wife's presence. That's why it annoys her to no end.
...You are harboring animosity...
Mirror, mirror on the wall...
....I gave you advice before....
You? Advice? Yeah....LOL
....Again you are wrong, wrong, wrong. She came here for a year, entering via a tourist visa. We never did a K-1....
If you say so, old fart.
...Very judgmental Matty boy. I am not sure of this source as it sounds more like Voltaire: supposedly Jos Mart, the hero of Cuban independence, named the things that every man ought to do before he dies. He reportedly said: "Plant a tree, write a book, have a son." I have done these, a thousand trees, a book published by McGraw-Hill and used at 200 universities, and two sons (plus a stepson and stepdaughter). Where are you Matty Boy? Tic.... toc.... tic.....toc....
This is a dandy.
Jos Mart must be a chauvinist if that in fact is true. But I can see how you would feel that way since you were deprived of having a daughter...you know - the gender that moves the men who moves mountains...
My tic toc is like the energizer bunny, will do so for a sweet while from now. You on the other hand, well, likely a *tic* away from keeling over. It could be any day now, too.
Nature have its own sweet way to wash away its filth. ;)
...I should have known this would go over your head...
It didn't but the source was well considered.
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Daveman, I went back to the list and I think I know what GQ is referring to.
And then again I may be in left field.
Regardless, let me try.
I think he is making a distinction of what is a sociably adaptive man versus a man who has no clue.
The reference of the man obssessed with the goddess-like stature of RW and the severe antipathy towards western women because of their 'lack' of womaness, whatever that means denotes a type of person who is distinctively having problems adapting to their own social surroundings so they embark in this Odysseus-like travel to find acceptance.
I believe his argument is that there are men who can do it because they can and then there are men who must do it because there is no other alternative.
If that is his argument, then I can agree with his definition of an 'MOBer' as a social reject.
Excellent Muzh, with one suggestion. Instead of "If that is his argument, then I can agree with his definition of an 'MOBer' as a social reject how about "....I can agree with his opinion that possibly a significant number of those who marry a MOB had no other alternative because AW will not give them the time of day."
IMO the term "social reject" encompasses much more than romantic rejection, it includes peer rejection, even family rejection. Frankly, GQ in his assertiveness in this thread but elsewhere comes across as someone who would bully the unfortunate. Look how he attempts to insult me just because I am older albeit smarter, prettier, richer, and most important, a much better golfer.
You could be a consultant after you retire.
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(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/clmontes/cowboy-shaking-head_zpsd1aa66c5.gif)
Hold on there pardner.
You have a problem with that?
I make excellent quiche and my kids love it. Besides I iron my wife's blouses when she is in a hurry and I have the time to do it. Also, I cook all the time. Finally, I have NO problems wearing a pink shirt.
It takes a REAL man to wear a pink shirt.
Having a little insecurity attack?
Because if you are trying to rub his nose, you are failing miserably.
:ROFL:
Yes, and you probably sit when you pee. :D I admit I do if at night and I am still feeling the booze (better than having to clean up in the morning).
Maybe you know this, but the quiche comes from the popular 1982 book, Real Men Don't Eat Quiche, followed up by Real Programmers Don't Use Pascal. It was a "a bestselling tongue-in-cheek (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tongue-in-cheek) book satirizing (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satirizing)stereotypes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stereotype) of masculinity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masculinity)." I dislike quiche because it is unhealthy in its normal form(cheese, eggs, bacon, crust) and insipid in its healthy form.
Pink is good, so are tassel loafers. But the ironong. Isn't your time worth more than the $2 for a Korean laundry to wash and press it?
How about the top of my list - not finding anything interesting in conversations with husbands of RW? Please tell me your opinion of husbands of RW whom you have met in your area. Here, they are a motley group. For example, I had a lengthy and most interesting discussion with a professor of physiology. Others may consider him a bit nerdy, but I found him fascinating as we discussed the interrelationships of human organs, possibly a Steven Hawking of physiology. Only a person with a narrow world would consider him a social reject.
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Excellent Muzh, with one suggestion. Instead of "If that is his argument, then I can agree with his definition of an 'MOBer' as a social reject how about "....I can agree with his opinion that possibly a significant number of those who marry a MOB had no other alternative because AW will not give them the time of day."
IMO the term "social reject" encompasses much more than romantic rejection, it includes peer rejection, even family rejection. Frankly, GQ in his assertiveness in this thread but elsewhere comes across as someone who would bully the unfortunate. Look how he attempts to insult me just because I am older albeit smarter, prettier, richer, and most important, a much better golfer.
You could be a consultant after you retire.
Not so sure the term is meant for only romantic rejection. People that are rejected romantically but still accepted by peers are not considered social rejects.
What we were talking here are about men who have difficulty coming to grips with societal changes, thus the rejection from their peers. Well, I have to redefine peers. There can be a group of social rejects who can offer mutual support.
Point is the person in question thinks that by venturing to a different country and different culture, he has an opportunity to find acceptance. That may be the case, except when such person returns home, nothing has changed as far as his view of society is concerned. However, the new person acompanying him will eventually understand the primary reason for his venture and it is up to her to live with the drawbacks or look for an equal basis.
It is not rocket science.
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But the ironong. Isn't your time worth more than the $2 for a Korean laundry to wash and press it?
I don't have a Korean laundry nearby. We do regulate the living shit out of them though.
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I don't have a Korean laundry nearby. We do regulate the living shit out of them though.
We have lots of laundries and dry cleaners nearby. But clothes don't look as good, or last as long, when dry cleaned/commercially laundered. So, I launder and iron my own clothes as well. I even iron the kids' t-shirts.
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Point is the person in question thinks that by venturing to a different country and different culture, he has an opportunity to find acceptance.
Find acceptance? How many men really go to the FSU so find "acceptance." Most go IMHO because the dating is easier and it is possible to find a larger pool of women looking for husbands.
That may be the case, except when such person returns home, nothing has changed as far as his view of society is concerned.
View of society?!? The goal is to find one person who will love you and respect you, a person that you can love and respect as well. How "society" views it is irrelevant.
However, the new person acompanying him will eventually understand the primary reason for his venture and it is up to her to live with the drawbacks or look for an equal basis.
Or, they will simply settle down in a loving marriage.
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Misha, it's Friday and I'm heading home. Good Night.
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Here's how it is Daveman. You asked and challenge my statement from another thread on what *I* think of an MOBer is, I told you. You may agree or disagree, that's up to you. It IS my opinion of what an MOBer is.
You asked, I told you. If you have a problem with the response, or think it may be something you won't find acceptable, then I suggest you find a way to fight that battle with yourself...or next time, simply don't ask.
I have zero problem with your list or your opinion. It's neither acceptable nor unacceptable, but rather is what it is... Personally, I find it odd, humorous, and also some excellent points when taken in proper context. Oh yeah, and INTERESTING... but nothing offensive nor life shattering.
If you're only trying to start a dialogue about the subject for the forum, there you have it - multiple pages, andd from what I can see - you got what you paid for in folds, no? ;)
Yep.. ;D
If you're going to dive into the archive, I suggest to dive a little deeper.
Nah, I don't have the time. The point being is that there are some long term happily married folk who, by some standard of measure, may or may not be classified as socially inept, or rejects, or whatever but are indeed a soul mate, other half, whatever phrasing du jour, of an FSUW. They rode the same ship in pretty much the same way, arriving at a similar destination..
(keep in mind everyone, this is just a discussion, tossing around some interesting, IMO, chatter which will hopefully be both interesting and beneficial for the forum)
That's all the time I have until the evening.. try to keep it civil and respectful (cough)
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We have lots of laundries and dry cleaners nearby. But clothes don't look as good, or last as long, when dry cleaned/commercially laundered. So, I launder and iron my own clothes as well. I even iron the kids' t-shirts.
A little obsessive compulsive, huh?
I have found that if I stretch the t-shirts and then fold them, that they look just like they were just ironed. But you have to line up all of the seams.
My mother was a home economics teacher. The first thing we learned at the age of ten was that you iron the back of the collar first, then the shoulders. Then the inside of the back of the shirt. Then you iron the front of the shirt, folded over on the back, and then finally the sleeves.
This is for button downs. All under 60 seconds.
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GQ,
It is best that we stop responding to each other. You are a crass individual, and I refuse to be drug into the gutter. I fear I may show a disturbing side if this continues. Ranetka is correct (smart, classy woman).
Besides I have a full weekend starting with theater tonight ("Flashdance"), golf Saturday and Sunday, an antique auction preview Saturday afternoon, a dinner at a good seafood restaurant tomorrow, and maybe a family taco night with my sons Sunday (but one son may avoid me as he needs to cleanup the mess he left in his room of 19 years). If no tacos, an action film with my 13-yo stepson and mama, and maybe some driving range time before that.
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GQ never posted he is "different". He was asked what is an MOB'er, and he responded. I don't think he ever said he is superior, even if he believes it (not making a statement, either way).
Please explain:
"The majority of them (yes, not all) are social rejects and old geezers. You can literally see that in their daily postings."
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We have lots of laundries and dry cleaners nearby. But clothes don't look as good, or last as long, when dry cleaned/commercially laundered. So, I launder and iron my own clothes as well. I even iron the kids' t-shirts.
I love ironing our own clothes. I always had done that even as a small child. Now that Time Warner televises the Lakers all the time, it makes for a perfect time to pull out some clothes and iron away, man..Sometimes I do it, sometimes she does...
Besides, there's something *nice* and *special* about seeing my wife smile and kisses me for being so thoughtful and caring.
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GQ,
It is best that we stop responding to each other. You are a crass individual, and I refuse to be drug into the gutter....
LOL. What a hoot!
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A little obsessive compulsive, huh?
I have found that if I stretch the t-shirts and then fold them, that they look just like they were just ironed. But you have to line up all of the seams.
My mother was a home economics teacher. The first thing we learned at the age of ten was that you iron the back of the collar first, then the shoulders. Then the inside of the back of the shirt. Then you iron the front of the shirt, folded over on the back, and then finally the sleeves.
This is for button downs. All under 60 seconds.
There are newer *hybrid* materials now that you need to be made aware of that just isn't the same way as any other. Steam, or splashes of water helps in some, while not others. Then of course, proper temeprature settings must always be right...
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:ROFL:
Yes, and you probably sit when you pee. :D
Toilet bowls are designed for sitting. Most men will stand and pee in front of them of course and it's inevitable that they will splash or spray at some point. That's why they have urinals and why they are designed the way they are but I don't have a urinal at home, do you?
I, personally, don't like to clean up dried piss around the toilet and I respect my wife too much to expect her to do it for me. How about you?
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sitting on the toilet seat? isn't that unhygienic?
the only way i can prevent dunking my johnson into the toilet water is to stand perfectly upright. doesn't every man face that problem?
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How interesting. I knew of your trip and I thought you would welcome a little break one afternoon to meet two RW who did not have a horse in the race, namely Irina aka as the famous "Donna Pedro" and my Moscow woman. I thought both tried to help you that day. And you thought it was a mistake. No wonder you did not buy a round of pivo after I bought the first round.
accepted a round of beer... but didn't reciprocate?
being cheap --- one of my top 5 pet peeves (or should i say, peevos).
say it ain't so, gqb!
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Well like most of people here since most of us have not met others in real life I make my judgement based 100% on what people write.
believing 100% of what some guy writes about himself on the internet?
isn't that what got you into your mess in the first place?
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sitting on the toilet seat? isn't that unhygienic?
Can be. I certainly don't sit on a toilet when peeing especially in a public restroom. When I do sit, I coat the seat with toilet paper. The secret to peeing and not spashing is to aim next to the bowl of water along the porcelain. Pee itself is not that bad. Cats and dogs drink out of toilets. If you're thristy and stuck in the desert, one can drink their own pee. Also if it were bad on your skin sitting on a toilet, people wouldn't be doing oral sex getting it on their mouth.
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I still don't think MOB'er even applies because it's a meaningless label. Basically, I wanted to date/marry an FSUW. I pursued, dated, broke up, dated again, until I found someone with whom I really wanted to build a future. I did what I wanted to do and found someone who wishes to travel with me through this journey of life. That's what you did. Misha did. Muzh... the list goes on. That's the alpha and omega.
From a certain perspective I am an MOB'er, a wife importer, whatever. It makes no difference what label someone else places on it. Bottom line is that I'm quite happy with my life, my decisions, my history, all of it. My wife seems to be quite happy too. Other members are as well. I may be a social reject too. I couldn't care less - ignorance is bliss! heh.. At least it has never stopped me from going for - and getting - whatever I wanted.
Amen. If I really seriously considered others' opinions about method, I'd still be paddling against the current. Social reject, MOB'er, desperate man, used goods woman, with child, requiring a financial rescue..... don't pull your shoulder out tossing the names.
Someone forgot to mention "agency" girl..... Mine was. How could I have been so... so..... (fill in the blank, it doesn't mean jack to us....)
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And taking a step back to touch (again) on another important point..
OK, so let me ask you this. Knowing most of these women are not in love, why would a man "settle" for a woman who is with him for what he can provide, rather than for who he is?
I suppose it is not something I understand, both from personal experience and from my family. I just cannot fathom choosing to live with someone who was not madly, passionately, in love with me, and vice versa.
And
...
But, if one reads FSUW forums, many of them, even a slight majority, are not in love with their partners. They readily admit their partners do not know this. Hence, they are insincere. You can ask some of the FSUW who post here for confirmation of this.
Technically, if he doesn't know then he's not settling.. however, as far as I'm aware, Actorol is not widely available in the FSU (though very much needed as the clip in another thread indicates), AND - call it a hunch - RW as a group are not the greatest actresses in the world, so the anecdotal husbands of the anecdotal insincere wives must be delusional, clueless, or that love doesn't play such a large, or as large, of a role as T and A. Ooooops, make that much younger and firmer T and A.
So, if typical exists, then perhaps that would lend some insight into traits of typical MOB'er and MOB's..
Such as insincerity, delusion, willingness to settle or choosingness to enter an arrangement, stellar acting skills (and and untapped goldmine of potential for agents of a different field).
Others?
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Technically, if he doesn't know then he's not settling.. however, as far as I'm aware, Actorol is not widely available in the FSU (though very much needed as the clip in another thread indicates), AND - call it a hunch - RW as a group are not the greatest actresses in the world, so the anecdotal husbands of the anecdotal insincere wives must be delusional, clueless, or that love doesn't play such a large, or as large, of a role as T and A. Ooooops, make that much younger and firmer T and A.
Others?
In Soviet times, the "propiska" for a closed city was coveted by escapees. I saw the after effects of acquaintances (male) who'd married women for whom they were nothing more than a means to that propiska. I've posted about it in the past. My husband could give you at least a hundred, probably more, stories. The one that sticks out in my mind is one where he was present when she gave him the news. After three years of marriage, the wife, an extremely pretty young woman, received her propiska. The next day, he came home to find her packing. He asked what he had done. She said nothing. She told him she had what she needed. She was taking some of his things. When he protested, she turned to him and said "I earned it." What struck my husband, and gives him chills to this day, decades years later, is, he said she had the coldest eyes he had ever seen. The husband never recovered, he was so destroyed, and never remarried.
This was an extremely common story. mies and I posted about it some time ago, she was familiar with it as well. So, uh, yeah. They can be great actresses. If they can fool FSUM, why not WM? I don't mean it as a slag on FSUW, WW can do these things as well, it's not a particular ethnic trait.
If a man doesn't know his spouse doesn't love him? Great! I hope he is happy! However, as one FSUW told a dumped husband here who didn't understand it, "You were no longer useful to her." So, as long as he is "useful", he'll be happy. He just better hope his health, and money, hold up.
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And taking a step back to touch (again) on another important point..
And
Technically, if he doesn't know then he's not settling.. however, as far as I'm aware, Actorol is not widely available in the FSU (though very much needed as the clip in another thread indicates), AND - call it a hunch - RW as a group are not the greatest actresses in the world, so the anecdotal husbands of the anecdotal insincere wives must be delusional, clueless, or that love doesn't play such a large, or as large, of a role as T and A. Ooooops, make that much younger and firmer T and A.
So, if typical exists, then perhaps that would lend some insight into traits of typical MOB'er and MOB's..
Such as insincerity, delusion, willingness to settle or choosingness to enter an arrangement, stellar acting skills (and and untapped goldmine of potential for agents of a different field).
Others?
There was a discussion on RWD not so long ago about whether it's okay for two people to get married if there is no love, but other reasons, such as the future husband can provide financially (for W) and the woman having a tight body and they tolerate each other well (for M), and such.
I was surprised how many RWD-ers said it's okay to marry without love, and being in love when standing at the altar is not the foundation of a happy marriage - but rather all those "mutual gain" reasons. If loves develops later in marriage - it's fine, they'll take it.
So, I assume that many MOB marriages are really marriages of convenience, with both parties being aware and okay with this. Again, no wonder they fail when one party doesn't feel that they are still getting their "covenience" out of the marriage.
When I have a moment I might try to find that thread and post a link
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Also if it were bad on your skin sitting on a toilet, people wouldn't be doing oral sex getting it on their mouth.
I wouldn't be participating in either category without thorough showering by both parties immediately prior to.
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[clipped for brevity]
If a man doesn't know his spouse doesn't love him? Great! I hope he is happy! However, as one FSUW told a dumped husband here who didn't understand it, "You were no longer useful to her." So, as long as he is "useful", he'll be happy. He just better hope his health, and money, hold up.
Not sure, but perhaps you thought I was disagreeing with you? nope, not this time.. merely pointing out that the same man cannot both "settle" AND not know (unless of course he was settling on, e.g., looks, etc, and was fooled about the 'love'.. but I think the point is clear).. settling implies a certain knowledge. Which brought me to "delusional"..
In fact I am 100% with you on this:
OK, so let me ask you this. Knowing most of these women are not in love, why would a man "settle" for a woman who is with him for what he can provide, rather than for who he is? [/size]I suppose it is not something I understand, both from personal experience and from my family. I just cannot fathom choosing to live with someone who was not madly, passionately, in love with me, and vice versa.
Our only potential disagreement would be that there are so many great RW actresses... a few, yes.. but mostly I am a firm believe in both sides of this exchange:
There are very few women that are clever and talented enough to fool a wise man as to whether they are truly in love with them.
Women don't have to try very hard. Men deceive themselves quite well enough by themselves...
I assert that most of the men are who are fooled are complicit participants in their duping. Something discussed here ad nauseum. The gut feelings, the warning signs rationalized away or ignored completely. While exceptions may exist I think the norm is self delusion in those situations. Call it the 'head in the sand' syndrome, which of course is ultimately very painful, regardless of which head is currently in use.... (owww.. yeah, definitely lose/lose on that one...).. and it seems the younger and tighter the flesh, the greater the power of delusion a man suddenly possesses.
I'm with you and PB on the "arrangement/convenience" deal. What two consenting adults choose to do is their own business - more power to them - I just don't have too much sympathy later if/when it does fall apart.
But, as for typical MOB'er traits (perhaps no consensus can exist, but let's go with majority rules)..
Age gap, delusion, settling for a convenient flesh/money arrangement...
What else?
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believing 100% of what some guy writes about himself on the internet?
isn't that what got you into your mess in the first place?
judging is not equal believing
no, wishful thinking did
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But, as for typical MOB'er traits (perhaps no consensus can exist, but let's go with majority rules)..
Age gap, delusion, settling for a convenient flesh/money arrangement...
What else?
We can come up with a list of traits of a typical MOB-er. However, there is one major philosophical distinction which I use when judging whether a guy married to a RW/seeking a RW is a MOB-er or not. I believe GQ said this once: "The relations is with the woman in your Russian, not the Russian in the woman". A man who generally looks at the whole endeavor from the former vantage point is quite probably not a MOB-er. The one who subscribes to the latter one - almost inevitably is a MOB-er.
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We can come up with a list of traits of a typical MOB-er. However, there is one major philosophical distinction which I use when judging whether a guy married to a RW/seeking a RW is a MOB-er or not. I believe GQ said this once: "The relations is with the woman in your Russian, not the Russian in the woman". A man who generally looks at the whole endeavor from the former vantage point is quite probably not a MOB-er. The one who subscribes to the latter one - almost inevitably is a MOB-er.
"The relations is with the woman in your Russian, not the Russian in the woman"
With the firs part I absolutely agree... but the latter.. doesn't that sound more like a wickedly twisted cultural fetish? >:D I could be mistaken, but it seems for someone who may be an MOB'er, the "Russian" itself perhaps would be a tolerable inconvenience embedded in the prize.. when the real story would probably be more fitting as "not the young ass on the woman".
I think, for a good many, the whole "Russian" thing is a smokescreen guys toss out there to cover the real deal.
Joking aside, I agree. It is the attitude which creates all of the other observable symptoms - positive or negative.
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So, I assume that many MOB marriages are really marriages of convenience, with both parties being aware and okay with this. Again, no wonder they fail when one party doesn't feel that they are still getting their "covenience" out of the marriage.
Love is just another convenience in a marriage too just as is financial stability. It's real hard to be happy in love when the kids and you don't have good clothes and are starving. If a woman has a choice to choose love or financial stability in a man but can't have both, it's wiser of her to choose financial stability. Love doesn't solve real life problems.
Imagine in the old days when men were hunters and brought home the meat. If a man were strong and intelligent and brought in lots of food compared to the dumb weak guy, he gets the girls. Through his work ethic and abilities proving him a good provider for a family, he is respected and with respect, then comes love.
As fast as some people marry in this endeavor, love can't be all that strong when they marry. It can grow later and that is acceptable to most people.
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If a man were strong
WOW, someone under age 50 knows subjunctive mood!!
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Love is just another convenience in a marriage too just as is financial stability. It's real hard to be happy in love when the kids and you don't have good clothes and are starving. If a woman has a choice to choose love or financial stability in a man but can't have both, it's wiser of her to choose financial stability. Love doesn't solve real life problems.
Fair enough and all good and well- as long as both parties are aware of the deal before marriage.
Only ya know, life is an interesting thing. Today a man can provide financial stability and this is precisely why a woman married him. Tomorrow (and much more typical of marriages with a large age gap, as witnessed by sad stories on this very board), the man's health deteriorates, or he gets fired, or his business goes down hill, as well as 401K. And what happens to this marriage? Yep, the woman leaves cause he can not provide financial stability anymore AND she doesn't love him. Why would she stay?
Also, I know it's not the case of your marriage, Billy ;D but a wife is not a helpless little pet. She can provide financial stability just as well the the husband can, so that they both work together as a team for their family and because they love each other. And in times of "real life troubles" she can step up and provide financial stability for the the family by herself.
Because only love and commitment keep people together through trying times, not a marriage of convenience.
Personally I love my husband too much to let him bear 100% stress of financial responsibility for the family, especially to the point that if it's not for his work, "the kids and you don't have good clothes and are starving"
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Fair enough and all good and well- as long as both parties are aware of the deal before marriage.
Only ya know, life is an interesting thing. Today a man can provide financial stability and this is precisely why a woman married him. Tomorrow (and much more typical of marriages with a large age gap, as witnessed by sad stories on this very board), the man's health deteriorates, or he gets fired, or his business goes down hill, as well as 401K. And what happens to this marriage? Yep, the woman leaves cause he can not provide financial stability anymore AND she doesn't love him. Why would she stay?
Also, I know it's not the case of your marriage, Billy ;D but a wife is not a helpless little pet. She can provide financial stability just as well the the husband can, so that they both work together as a team for their family and because they love each other. And in times of "real life troubles" she can step up and provide financial stability for the the family by herself.
Because only love and commitment keep people together through trying times, not a marriage of convenience.
Personally I love my husband too much to let him bear 100% stress of financial responsibility for the family, especially to the point that if it's not for his work, "the kids and you don't have good clothes and are starving"
What a B***, come on guys! do NOT let her get away with this atrocity! the audacity!
:P I have very little doubt there's a man somewhere out there who is extremely happy and very proud. I've know that for quite a while now... but shhhhh, I don't wanna lose my rep...
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I thought the same thing, Dave. But it's hard to compliment someone on doing something extraordinary when she will only believe you are patronizing her. 8)
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Love is just another convenience in a marriage too just as is financial stability. It's real hard to be happy in love when the kids and you don't have good clothes and are starving. If a woman has a choice to choose love or financial stability in a man but can't have both, it's wiser of her to choose financial stability. Love doesn't solve real life problems.
Imagine in the old days when men were hunters and brought home the meat. If a man were strong and intelligent and brought in lots of food compared to the dumb weak guy, he gets the girls. Through his work ethic and abilities proving him a good provider for a family, he is respected and with respect, then comes love.
As fast as some people marry in this endeavor, love can't be all that strong when they marry. It can grow later and that is acceptable to most people.
No Billy, when woman is "strong like Bull" she bring home meat, no problem. And she not miss toilet seat or mouth :D
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Fair enough and all good and well- as long as both parties are aware of the deal before marriage.
Only ya know, life is an interesting thing. Today a man can provide financial stability and this is precisely why a woman married him. Tomorrow (and much more typical of marriages with a large age gap, as witnessed by sad stories on this very board), the man's health deteriorates, or he gets fired, or his business goes down hill, as well as 401K. And what happens to this marriage? Yep, the woman leaves cause he can not provide financial stability anymore AND she doesn't love him. Why would she stay?
Also, I know it's not the case of your marriage, Billy ;D but a wife is not a helpless little pet. She can provide financial stability just as well the the husband can, so that they both work together as a team for their family and because they love each other. And in times of "real life troubles" she can step up and provide financial stability for the the family by herself.
Because only love and commitment keep people together through trying times, not a marriage of convenience.
Personally I love my husband too much to let him bear 100% stress of financial responsibility for the family, especially to the point that if it's not for his work, "the kids and you don't have good clothes and are starving"
Yes, all of that! :)
FWIW, I grew up knowing many a poverty stricken but blissfully happy couple in love. Money and things ain't everything by a long shot.
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Imagine in the old days when men were hunters and brought home the meat.
Which old days? Technically speaking, even when men hunted, the women gathered and usually what they gathered produced more food calories than the meat the men hunted :-X
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Yep, the woman leaves cause he can not provide financial stability anymore AND she doesn't love him. Why would she stay?
Also, I know it's not the case of your marriage, Billy ;D
I told my wife that most every man loses his job or business in his lifetime. There will be struggles and trying times. She told me she'll be by my side if that happens to me.
I wouldn't marry a woman if she wasn't into me physically and emotionally. I can accept people marrying for only financial convienence or a warm body in bed but I can't accept that for myself. There has to be love. I dated a lot of women and had options. Not every man or woman have options and if they wait for their dream man/woman to show up in their life, they'd be single for a long time or the rest of their life. They have to settle for less but for many people less is better than being alone.
Which old days? Technically speaking, even when men hunted, the women gathered and usually what they gathered produced more food calories than the meat the men hunted :-X
Even if true, the guy that gets better results over the next guy is more benefitial to a family as a provider and protector and his genes is the genes a woman wants her kids to have.
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[size=78%]Even if true, the guy that gets better results over the next guy is more benefitial to a family as a provider and protector and his genes is the genes a woman wants her kids to have.[/size]
Hunting and gathering societies are/were by nature very egalitarian. Quite often it was believed that success was achieved when animals gave themselves to the hunters and failure occurred when rules/taboos had been broken and central to success was working together with the group. There were usually set rules as to how the meat and food was divided among the group when the hunt was successful.
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I'm going to rewind now that I got some time to read more of this thread since it happened at warp speed.
Isn't the "traditional FSU woman" mostly agency hype that members here and other fora consistently debunk?
Even the term itself is ambiguous. I did meet and date the one who aspired to raise a family and stay at home - which is fine by me. "Traditionally" families had as many kids as possible to work the fields, hunt, for some to merely survive until adulthood - which is not really fine by me .. heh..
as well as a benefit to her individually. If she chooses to be a stay at home mom it will be the same.
Yes "traditional woman" can be ambiguous. Some people assumes it means a woman that stays home and have babies. Wrong. For most people it means it's a woman that have skills compared compared to many modern women who don't. Most younger women will admit their moms, on average, may have more skills than they. Even modern men have these problems. They know how to play video games but they don't know where the dipstick in their car is located.
More than what people know they want, they probably know better what they don't want. Most of of here have been through one marriage already. We've been educated and we can do better on our second if we make adjustments in ourselves and/or understand what is a better fit for ourselves in our marriages.
Some of us may have been married to a "modern woman" who is independent in the way she doesn't need a man unless it's when she wants and knows how to cook a mean tv dinner or popcorn in a microwave. Yes, it's true not all women know how to cook or take care of kids. Why did men marry these women? Love, something we want, something that's supposed to take care of us through thick and thin, blinded and deceived us. Most men here can admit missing red flags in their previous marriage or some of us realized the red flags are coming from ourselves and their wives missed it.
It's important for men and women to have skills in life, call it traditional if you like. Aloe who is married to a man close in age with her has a husband that likes to spend lots of time on video games. She probably wished her man did more things constructive, such as fix the house, take the family to a park, take the family on a trip, clean the yard, etc.... She probably wished she had a traditional hard working man....maybe like her father but love could've blinded her and she safely assumed all men are like the examples of the ideal men she had in mind.
Some posters earlier mentioned reading FSU women forums of the wives complaining about their large age gap cross cultural marriages. Of course problems happen in those situations but a small population on an internet forum doesn't represent everybody. Those that complain do it louder and more often than those that are happy. People in happy marriages don't tend to talk about their marriages as much on the internet. I'm also not very sympathetic to those who enter into a marriage willingly and complain about it and put down their spouse.
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The things I know about your finacee is that she is 38, a single mother of two kids from two different fathers. Is it that hard to come by in the US?...
Heck NO!
There's plenty of these types in the US. Matter of fact, San Bernardino, the white trash capital of California have a multitude of these types of women...but apparently even in San Bernardino, these women won't date men long past their...
:P
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Yeah, and when San Bernardino overflows, they send their rejects to Visalia.
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Here's another interesting statistic from the survey...
http://www.goodwife.com/survey/xcultural_p16.html (http://www.goodwife.com/survey/xcultural_p16.html)
The median age for men is 40. Age gap median is 8 I think it was.. hell I can't remember, senility obviously setting in but there's the damn link.
I took the time to investigate the birthdays in the calendar here. While very unscientific, still, our membership tends to reflect a similar, though perhaps not exact, median value.
Seems that "old", though a relative term (40 is old to 20.. etc), isn't actually typical.
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I thought the same thing, Dave. But it's hard to compliment someone on doing something extraordinary when she will only believe you are patronizing her. 8)
jone,
Why don't you try? Everybody deserves a second chance ;D
Also, I didn't get the "extraordinary" part. :)
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cal, I have spoken to many UW, both in Ukraine and here. In Ukraine, most are divorced, with children. Here, most are married to UM. None of these women are looking for a foreign man. I have never, ever, heard any of them say what these women tell WM.
my impressions of russian/ukrainian men are fairly mixed.
at home and in my travels abroad, i've met some pretty solid guys... but i've also met my share of spoiled helpless momma's boys.
i'm sure russian/ukrainian women see what i see.
and i'm sure they'd like a solid guy, regardless of the country.
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None of which changes the fact that in both Russia and Ukraine, age gap relationships are the exception, not the norm, and any FSUW who tells a WM otherwise is fibbing.
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None of which changes the fact that in both Russia and Ukraine, age gap relationships are the exception, not the norm, and any FSUW who tells a WM otherwise is fibbing.
Yes, agreed. But are they the norm with cross-cultural relationships/marriages?
Seems the cross-cultural survey supports only a small shift in that direction. Eight - nine years as opposed to four or five.
The indication would be that while some would be open to the idea, or attracted, or fall in love, those women are probably a small fraction and are somehow unique. The rest are probably in the insincere/arrangement category.
Translation? The woman would be exceptional.
***no animals were harmed in the typing of this post so no panties need be wadded! any similarity to events, persons and/or marriages/relationships -real or imagined - is purely coincidental. Imaginary girlfriends from Anastasia, et al, are exempted as no amount of logic, reason, or data analysis may be applied to that which doesn't actually exist***
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I don't believe I stated they are the norm. I don't really care who marries whom, provided all parties are of legal age. But, when a WM posts justifications which are not factual, well, you know I won't let that go by unchallenged. :P
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None of which changes the fact that in both Russia and Ukraine, age gap relationships are the exception, not the norm, and any FSUW who tells a WM otherwise is fibbing.
Very likely true.
I'm just not too sure if this holds true in the US since it seems most if not all the AM/FSUW couples we've met apparently met here in places like the supermarkets, malls, parks, through friends, etc...
Could it be these FSUWs mysteriously changed their attitude about this and had grown an affinity for old men? How do you explain that?
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I don't believe I stated they are the norm. I don't really care who marries whom, provided all parties are of legal age. But, when a WM posts justifications which are not factual, well, you know I won't let that go by unchallenged. :P
I don't believe I stated that you stated that they are the norm...
Sheesh, you're the most difficult person I've ever encountered to simply agree with...
:ROFL:
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***no animals were harmed in the typing of this post so no panties need be wadded! any similarity to events, persons and/or marriages/relationships -real or imagined - is purely coincidental. Imaginary girlfriends from Anastasia, et al, are exempted as no amount of logic, reason, or data analysis may be applied to that which doesn't actually exist***
:ROFL: :applause:
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sitting on the toilet seat? isn't that unhygienic?
the only way i can prevent dunking my johnson into the toilet water is to stand perfectly upright. doesn't every man face that problem?
Do you also take a shit standing? :ROFL:
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Technically, if he doesn't know then he's not settling.. however, as far as I'm aware, Actorol is not widely available in the FSU (though very much needed as the clip in another thread indicates), AND - call it a hunch - RW as a group are not the greatest actresses in the world, so the anecdotal husbands of the anecdotal insincere wives must be delusional, clueless, or that love doesn't play such a large, or as large, of a role as T and A. Ooooops, make that much younger and firmer T and A.
So, if typical exists, then perhaps that would lend some insight into traits of typical MOB'er and MOB's..
Such as insincerity, delusion, willingness to settle or choosingness to enter an arrangement, stellar acting skills (and and untapped goldmine of potential for agents of a different field).
Others?
So you really think a man can fake an orgasm as well, or better than a woman?
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Love is just another convenience in a marriage too just as is financial stability. It's real hard to be happy in love when the kids and you don't have good clothes and are starving. If a woman has a choice to choose love or financial stability in a man but can't have both, it's wiser of her to choose financial stability. Love doesn't solve real life problems.
You are talking about:
a) a moocher
b) an incapacitated woman; physically and/or mentally
c) a conniving witch
d) someone who does not match; physically and/or emotionally
Imagine in the old days when men were hunters and brought home the meat. If a man were strong and intelligent and brought in lots of food compared to the dumb weak guy, he gets the girls. Through his work ethic and abilities proving him a good provider for a family, he is respected and with respect, then comes love.
Imagine nothing. That was millennia ago.
As fast as some people marry in this endeavor, love can't be all that strong when they marry. It can grow later and that is acceptable to most people.
You can justify all you want. You have to.
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I told my wife that most every man loses his job or business in his lifetime. There will be struggles and trying times. She told me she'll be by my side if that happens to me.
I wouldn't marry a woman if she wasn't into me physically and emotionally. I can accept people marrying for only financial convienence or a warm body in bed but I can't accept that for myself. There has to be love. I dated a lot of women and had options. Not every man or woman have options and if they wait for their dream man/woman to show up in their life, they'd be single for a long time or the rest of their life. They have to settle for less but for many people less is better than being alone.
Even if true, the guy that gets better results over the next guy is more benefitial to a family as a provider and protector and his genes is the genes a woman wants her kids to have.
I see. You are one of the rare exceptions where the woman was in love when she married her husband.
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I'm going to rewind now that I got some time to read more of this thread since it happened at warp speed.
Yes "traditional woman" can be ambiguous. Some people assumes it means a woman that stays home and have babies. Wrong. For most people it means it's a woman that have skills compared compared to many modern women who don't. Most younger women will admit their moms, on average, may have more skills than they. Even modern men have these problems. They know how to play video games but they don't know where the dipstick in their car is located.
More than what people know they want, they probably know better what they don't want. Most of of here have been through one marriage already. We've been educated and we can do better on our second if we make adjustments in ourselves and/or understand what is a better fit for ourselves in our marriages.
Some of us may have been married to a "modern woman" who is independent in the way she doesn't need a man unless it's when she wants and knows how to cook a mean tv dinner or popcorn in a microwave. Yes, it's true not all women know how to cook or take care of kids. Why did men marry these women? Love, something we want, something that's supposed to take care of us through thick and thin, blinded and deceived us. Most men here can admit missing red flags in their previous marriage or some of us realized the red flags are coming from ourselves and their wives missed it.
It's important for men and women to have skills in life, call it traditional if you like. Aloe who is married to a man close in age with her has a husband that likes to spend lots of time on video games. She probably wished her man did more things constructive, such as fix the house, take the family to a park, take the family on a trip, clean the yard, etc.... She probably wished she had a traditional hard working man....maybe like her father but love could've blinded her and she safely assumed all men are like the examples of the ideal men she had in mind.
Some posters earlier mentioned reading FSU women forums of the wives complaining about their large age gap cross cultural marriages. Of course problems happen in those situations but a small population on an internet forum doesn't represent everybody. Those that complain do it louder and more often than those that are happy. People in happy marriages don't tend to talk about their marriages as much on the internet. I'm also not very sympathetic to those who enter into a marriage willingly and complain about it and put down their spouse.
You got me here salivating!!!
What are those skills the woman should have??
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So you really think a man can fake an orgasm as well, or better than a woman?
Practice makes perfect!!! >:D
I'm not sure how that analogy would relate. Orgasm duping occurs over a period of tens of seconds. "Passionate love" duping must continue for months or years. I'm asserting that most women, while they may be able to fake orgasms convincingly, will give of signs of insincerity over the long term with something as purely emotional as passionate love.
Really, I don't just buy that the majority of women can fool men who are not complicit in the process - about being in love anyway.
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[size=78%]Really, I don't just buy that the majority of women can fool men who are not complicit in the process - about being in love anyway. [/size]
I agree. Though, I do know that my wife had fallen in love with me when we married and I do know that she loves me now.
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Really, I don't just buy that the majority of women can fool men who are not
complicit in the process - about being in love anyway.
I do believe women, and men, for that matter, can fool a significant other about love. I don't believe one can "know" when things are going well. It is when life throws a curve at you, something that stresses the relationship, such as a loss of income, loss of health, loss of a loved one, etc., that the true face is revealed.
Sustained passionate love is rare, I think.
Many individuals, out of fear of being alone, will believe what they want, rather than what is. Others settle.
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None of which changes the fact that in both Russia and Ukraine, age gap relationships are the exception, not the norm, and any FSUW who tells a WM otherwise is fibbing.
Agree, but so what? RU and UA have a large population, so anything is possible, facilitated by the search power of the Internet. The father of my ex-wife’s two children was just 5 years younger than me. I would say he was too old for her, yet she loved him enough to bear two children.
I always assert one important key to a large age disparity is whether the man and woman are at the same stage of life. Are both ready to have children, the primary reason IMO for marriage? If yes, go and reproduce. There will still be many issues to overcome such as an older man accepting the other parents at Saturday’s youth soccer games are making an honest and friendly mistake when referring to his son as his grandson. :D
Some women may feel compelled to accomplish something prior to children. Or start something after the wee ones are more able to manage themselves. Is the man happy with this? If he is retired, he may not want a working wife. Reminds me of someone.
Based on my experience I believe it best for my situation to be with someone who has accomplished much in life and felt the joy of success again and again. Someone who wants to pursue new leisures. Nevertheless, some people who have accomplished much do not know how to hit the "on-off" switch; it has always been on.
I just don't see the the need for sanctimonious criticism of personal decisions made by two adults. I expect such from democrats, e. g. vegans who want meat banned rather than be contented with their own choices. But from republicans and libertarians?
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I just don't see the the need for sanctimonious criticism of personal decisions made by two adults. I expect such from democrats, e. g. vegans who want meat banned rather than be contented with their own choices. But from republicans and libertarians?
Me either... I'm merely asserting that most vegans, while they may be able to fake beefagasms convincingly, will give of signs of insincerity over the long term with something as purely emotional as passionate steak.
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Agree, but so what? RU and UA have a large population, so anything is possible, facilitated by the search power of the Internet. The father of my ex-wife’s two children was just 5 years younger than me. I would say he was too old for her, yet she loved him enough to bear two children.
I always assert one important key to a large age disparity is whether the man and woman are at the same stage of life. Are both ready to have children, the primary reason IMO for marriage? If yes, go and reproduce. There will still be many issues to overcome such as an older man accepting the other parents at Saturday’s youth soccer games are making an honest and friendly mistake when referring to his son as his grandson. :D
Some women may feel compelled to accomplish something prior to children. Or start something after the wee ones are more able to manage themselves. Is the man happy with this? If he is retired, he may not want a working wife. Reminds me of someone.
Based on my experience I believe it best for my situation to be with someone who has accomplished much in life and felt the joy of success again and again. Someone who wants to pursue new leisures. Nevertheless, some people who have accomplished much do not know how to hit the "on-off" switch; it has always been on.
I just don't see the the need for sanctimonious criticism of personal decisions made by two adults. I expect such from democrats, e. g. vegans who want meat banned rather than be contented with their own choices. But from republicans and libertarians?
great, great stuff, gator.
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I just don't see the the need for sanctimonious criticism of personal decisions ...
"Sanctimonious criticism of personal decisions" should really be the forum's subtitle.
I expect such from democrats, e. g. vegans who want meat banned rather than be contented with their own choices. But from republicans and libertarians?
It would be an interesting exercise to see if there was a link between people's level and frequency of sanctimoniousness and their political beliefs. One problem with finding this is that sanctimonious people never, ever would admit their are sanctimonious. They would say, rather, that they are merely pointing out the truth to other people who are wrong, Wrong, WRONG and consequently are less-worthy individuals. And it seems to really get under their skin when people disagree with them. I'd say we have a few of them here.
As someone who inclines to the libertarian direction, I'd say few of us like to hector and lecture people about their personal decisions.
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My point was not about age gaps. It was about lies. Barring pursuing minors, I personally don't give a damn who marries whom, and I highly doubt GQ does either.
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My point was not about age gaps. It was about lies. Barring pursuing minors, I personally don't give a damn who marries whom, and I highly doubt GQ does either.
Are you talking to me? If so, I referenced you posting "...age gap relationships are the exception, not the norm, and any FSUW who tells a WM otherwise is fibbing."
Because you followed Larry, maybe you are addressing him. However, the connection eludes me.
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Boethius, Again you speak for GQ, namely: " I personally don't give a damn who marries whom, and I highly doubt GQ does either."
It is okay to feel that GQ is one of your favorites, and that naturally happens in Internet boards. However, if you defend GQ I believe you should explain the contradiction between what you write about GQ and what he wrote, namely:
In all the ranting about GQ ...this thread got off track. So, I went back to the OP, and GQ's response. ..... I don't think he ever said he is superior, even if he believes it (not making a statement, either way).
I repeat my request that you explain an apparent contradiction.
Please explain [the contradiction between your opinion of GQ and what GQ wrote as his response to Daveman] :
"The majority of them (yes, not all) are social rejects and old geezers. You can literally see that in their daily postings."
Please help me understand.
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Barring pursuing minors, I personally don't give a damn who marries whom, and I highly doubt GQ does either.
BO, you must have been born attached to the hip of GQ. :)
Time and time again you have spoken on his behalf in this thread.
And yet, you do an about face and claim:
"Reply #167 on: February 21,
CM, GQ is reading this thread, and I am not speaking on his behalf."
:cluebat:
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I am not speaking for him. I am giving my interpretation of what he has posted, just as have others. I included him in my response as it is unclear who, exactly, it is that objects to "age disparate" relationships. Does GQ, given he is readily admits he is in one?
GQ certainly is free to correct me, if he so chooses.
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Agree, but so what? RU and UA have a large population, so anything is possible, facilitated by the search power of the Internet.
True, and the thing to keep in mind is that most people in the FSU still get married just out of high school or while they are in college or university and naturally they will marry individuals who are close to their age. Where other options are more likely to be examined is if a woman is not longer in college and is not finding men in her age group that she actually wants to marry or women who have divorced with children who may also have more limited prospects. Then, you are more likely to find larger age gaps as women will consider men as prospects that they would have ignored while in college...
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It's funny but despite the thread growing to more than 12 pages in length,
no one has answered Daveman's initial question "What is an MOB'er?"
The closest someone came to answering it so far has been GQ, in the second post.
Using some deductive skills we see that according to GQ a typical MOB'er is someone who:
1. Returns to the FSU seeking another wife if the first marriage fails.
2. Believes FSUW are the cat's meow.
3. Claims all AW are fat.
4. Feels threatened by a woman's personal success and aspiration for personal growth.
5. Falls in love with a woman's photos before meeting her.
6. Sends hundreds/thousands of dollars to a woman he just met.
7. Considers a foreign woman his GF after meeting just once.
8. Thinks women sign up at marriage agencies to marry them specifically.
9. Believes it's not necessary to lay all his cards on the table, when dating.
10. Spends years and thousands of dollars traveling to MOB regions searching for a wife.
11. Is more interested in 'what she is' rather than 'who she is'.
12. Hides how he and his wife met, when asked by someone.
13. Believes that a MOB's/MOB hunting is all that matters in life.
14. Kisses his wife's ass and expects her to return the favor.
15. Flashes his money around during courtship because he has nothing else to offer the woman.
16. Goes to the FSU with one aim in mind, 'find a wife' and tells this to each woman he meets.
17. Was dishonest to the women he met in the FSU, doing whatever was necessary to 'check out the goods' while abroad.
18. Encouraged women to be just as dishonest as he was.
19. Believes that his wife paid the ultimate sacrifice by deciding to marry him (leaving country, family, friends, job etc. etc.)
I will now offer my answer.
A MOB'er (the modern day version) is someone who gets up off his arse, gets on a plane and meets a woman in a foreign country with the hopes of marrying her down the line.
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My point was not about age gaps. It was about lies. Barring pursuing minors, I personally don't give a damn who marries whom, and I highly doubt GQ does either.
Amongst other things. Deception being a form of lying, is certainly one of them. But I very clearly laid out my list of MObers...generally, the social rejects and old geezers. I think that created such a furor because it hit home to so many. Heck, I didn't even use the once-popular 3-letter acronym that is *forbidden* to be posted here.
It starts with S and ends with M and with an R in the middle. It basically denotes the classification of the average bride-seekers. Maybe this site really needs to consult the immortal *Dean* of the School of Smooth to enlighten the many.
What say you, folks?
Age gaps are predominant here in the US with these couples. Why go to FSU when one can just hang-out in supermarkets...If I have the time, maybe I can find that thread that supports this point.
...GQ certainly is free to correct me, if he so chooses.
Not necessary as you're on point on all counts. The reaction is nothing more than the inevitable diaper rashes, LOL. :D So it won't get any better until it gets changed, or the need itself is no longer necessary. For some, likely the latter.
Patience.
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BO, you must have been born attached to the hip of GQ. :)
Time and time again you have spoken on his behalf in this thread....
I know this will likely surprise you but generally that happens when people are in full agreement.
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But I very clearly laid out my list of MObers
What say you, folks?
I'd say it is still not as advanced as the industry of Mail Order Husbands. :P I especially like the blog.
http://mailorderhusbands.net/love/order/ (http://mailorderhusbands.net/love/order/)
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I know this will likely surprise you but generally that happens when people are in full agreement.
Does that mean I am not allowed to speak on either your or BO's behalf? :)
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...I'd say it is still not as advanced as the industry of Mail Order Husbands. :P I especially like the blog.
http://mailorderhusbands.net/love/order/ (http://mailorderhusbands.net/love/order/)
:ROFL:
I bet *Earl* can do real well in *supermarkets*.
'Fuad' is half-priced! What a deal!....then I noticed where he lives :(
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Does that mean I am not allowed to speak on either your or BO's behalf? :)
Looks that way....
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I will now offer my answer.
A MOB'er (the modern day version) is someone who gets up off his arse, gets on a plane and meets a woman in a foreign country with the hopes of marrying her down the line.
agree with you 100%, canadaman !!!
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This thread was a lot of fun. haha
Look, everyone that goes overseas looking for a woman is trying to trade up compared to what they have available at home. I won't believe anyone who says otherwise.
I think a lot of guys go for a home run instead of the bunt. Are they losers? I don't know. I would say I could easily find people who would call anyone going to a country for women a loser.
Does it really matter? Maybe if you have insecurity issues.
This stuff isn't new. You got women and men doing this very same stuff in every country.
Everyone wants a better deal.
I seen someone mentioned Smooth Operator. I used to love his posts simply because they could rile up a hornets nest.
Still at the end of the day, he was going overseas to get a better deal.
As for people hurt by all the judgmental posts, well... I probably could find a judgmental post by everyone in this thread on this forum. We all do it so when it hits home you should be able to take the same medicine you dished out.
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I would think everyone here is an MOB'er.
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I can only repeat what I have stated before: "You may not like your shipmate(s), but we are all in the same boat here at RWD".
GOB
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I just don't see the the need for sanctimonious criticism of personal decisions made by two adults. I expect such from democrats, e. g. vegans who want meat banned rather than be contented with their own choices. But from republicans and libertarians?
That is fine with me.
Let's refrain from asking and answering questions here.
We don't want to be referred to as sanctimonious, don't we? :P
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That is fine with me.
Let's refrain from asking and answering questions here.
We don't want to be referred to as sanctimonious, don't we? :P
:ROFL: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
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This stuff isn't new. You got women and men doing this very same stuff in every country.
Everyone wants a better deal.
Nothing wrong with that. That is a strength in people not a weakness or something any man or woman has to be ashamed about. Who wants to marry a man or woman who accepts trailer park trash people into their life? I prefer a woman who has good goals, high standards and takes care of her physical appearance over the average or opposite woman. If she's living in another country, I'm going there.
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I prefer a woman who has good goals, high standards and takes care of her physical appearance over the average or opposite woman. If she's living in another country, I'm going there.
In other words, you'd rather be called a 'loser' than lose her. ;)
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MOB'er = Men Obsessed about Babes = Mind Often Blurred
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I KNOW I'm not a typical MOBer.
Me either! Most MOBer are more educated,wealthier and more refined than I ever will be :wallbash:
So....I classify myself as "below average MOBer" or a BAMOBer 8)
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Me either! Most MOBer are more educated,wealthier and more refined than I ever will be :wallbash:
You haven't been reading this forum very long, have you? :P
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You haven't been reading this forum very long, have you?
Just long enough to know that some people drink to much before they post.....so I forgive then because they have no clue what they are saying :)
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Just long enough to know that some people drink to much before they post.....so I forgive then because they have no clue what they are saying :)
Touché ! ;)
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Me either! Most MOBer are more educated,wealthier and more refined than I ever will be :wallbash:
So....I classify myself as "below average MOBer" or a BAMOBer 8)
Maybe you have less education than some but clearly you are smart. Also, based on your trip reports, you know what you want and what is best for you. So pat yourself on the back.
And I agree with what Boethius wrote about being refined. Did you find it odd that the man who was criticized for living in a so-called redneck area of LA expressed his thoughts in a more refined manner than did the man who criticized him? ;)
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Just long enough to know that some people drink to much before they post.....so I forgive then because they have no clue what they are saying :)
For some it is more than firewater. They simply are out of humor, i. e. miserable and bitter.
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Just long enough to know that some people drink to much before they post.....so I forgive then because they have no clue what they are saying :)
Oh?
Mind sharing who the sots are?
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I would think everyone here is an MOB'er.
Actually, I am an MOH ;)...Mail Order Husband. My fiancee initiated contact on one of the more up and up PPL sites. We wrote intensely, frequently; we met; we fell in love; we will marry in UA and I will take up residence with her and my future stepdaughter in Luhansk, until she completes her final university studies. 8)
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Actually, I am an MOH ;)...Mail Order Husband. My fiancee initiated contact on one of the more up and up PPL sites. We wrote intensely, frequently; we met; we fell in love; we will marry in UA and I will take up residence with her and my future stepdaughter in Luhansk, until she completes her final university studies. 8)
A great love story. Keep us informed.
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[Mind sharing who the sots are?/quote]
Yes!
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Mind sharing who the sots are?/quote]
Yes!
So if you mind, then why make such comment?
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So if you mind, then why make such comment?
:rules:
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So if you mind, then why make such comment?
There are some very bizarre men on these here boards Muzh.
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There are some very bizarre men on these here boards Muzh.
Indeed. It is as if they unlock this door with the key of imagination. Beyond it is another dimension -a dimension of sound, a dimension of sight, a dimension of mind. They move into a land of both shadow and substance, of things and ideas. They've crossed over into the Twilight Zone.
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What a thread.. lol
1. Returns to the FSU seeking another wife if the first marriage fails.
Yeap check!
I'm tryig to figure out if after my first wife passed away, since she was Irish, would I have been a MOBer to marry another Irish lass though? or only if i concentrated primarly on Irish lassies?
2. Believes FSUW are the cat's meow.
personal cats meow?
Some are! some arnt! just like every nationality or individual
3. Claims all AW are fat.
Nope.A lot of attractive AW..
4. Feels threatened by a woman's personal success and aspiration for personal growth.
Hardly, I find that appealing, and would encourage it in everyway.
5. Falls in love with a woman's photos before meeting her.
No.
6. Sends hundreds/thousands of dollars to a woman he just met.
Nope.
7. Considers a foreign woman his GF after meeting just once.
Nope, but you'd have to truly define *meeting*, and the scenareo?
If they had been corresponding a long time and had a multi month *meeting*,both decided they were in a mutually exclusive relationship.. it would seemingly define umm girlfriend.She would certianly think so?
8. Thinks women sign up at marriage agencies to marry them specifically.
:P
No
9. Believes it's not necessary to lay all his cards on the table, when dating.
I'm confident enough to know I can lay it all out there.
Win some ,lose some, their choice.
The flip of that is I had nothing to hide, I was looking,
found someone i felt worthy going on a date with, and went to see her for one date, if it progeressed great, if it dint .It dint. Whats to hide?
10. Spends years and thousands of dollars traveling to MOB regions searching for a wife.
Hmm, interesting..I never searched long.Not sure I would have, something else would likely catch my attention.
That wouldn't make me superior, just ADD.
11. Is more interested in 'what she is' rather than 'who she is'.
umm no, who she is, is all of it.
12. Hides how he and his wife met, when asked by someone.
Not on my part,if she's uncomfortable in some specific situations with it, i'd respect that.
13. Believes that a MOB's/MOB hunting is all that matters in life.
Heaven's no.
14. Kisses his wife's ass and expects her to return the favor.
again interesting.. I think couples that care for each other deeply, a certain amont of reciprocal ass kissing is a bit natural,yet not expected by either party.
15. Flashes his money around during courtship because he has nothing else to offer the woman.
That would be a challenge i'm not up to.
16. Goes to the FSU with one aim in mind, 'find a wife' and tells this to each woman he meets.
The wife subject wouldnt come up until a serious continuing relationship had developed.
17. Was dishonest to the women he met in the FSU, doing whatever was necessary to 'check out the goods' while abroad.
Wait, wasnt this covered in number 9? i get easily confused in these Cosmo style polls.
18. Encouraged women to be just as dishonest as he was.
no.
but I dint expect them to be living in a vacuum either!!
They hopefully were well adjusted and had active social lives, if single and dating then if i fit in their dance schedule ,and they in mine, well..cool.we'd see where it led.
19. Believes that his wife paid the ultimate sacrifice by deciding to marry him (leaving country, family, friends, job etc. etc.)
YES!!!!!! lol if she can tolerate me for more than a month, thats aproaching sainthood and cdertainly self sacrificial.
Ok, in more seriosness, I'd think each case a bit different.
So if one ,and done , then i'm a MOB'er!! :P
and of coure i am !
I got on a plane ,met a women in a foriegn country
,one known for the dreadful MOB,
and eventually married her.
The key isnt about intial attitudes ,intent, perspectuive, or any of the stuff being bantered about here..
If the seedy industry dint exist, I would have been very unlikely to have met my wife, despite my years traveling and living in many countries,or any disclaimers i may have in my initial search attitude, my openess to other nationalities etc..
That's it, that's the definition.
Would you , or would you not have met your spouse ,
if the MOB industry(and those socio- economic drivers that inspried it) had never existed in the FSU?
game over, not one disclaimer matters.
This same case is true for most all of you who are married (men), or for your husbands (women)
With only one or two notable exceptions?
Sorry all this slice and dicing of the topic amuses me to no end.Always has.
Lets cut to the chase after pages and pages?
Please list the usernames of men here who arnt MOBers.
That list, would seem to most easily define the term in a form we could all relate to?
Step up gents who think you arnt!!
Or wives who think your husband wasnt.
Beo, you can't play!! :-X
The MOB'ers? well state that clearly as well, disclaimers do not apply.Just like you cant be sort of pregnant
:popcorn:
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There are some very bizarre men on these here boards Muzh.
Oh?
Mind sharing who these men are?
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Or don't.
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Please list the usernames of men here who arnt MOBers.
That list, would seem to most easily define the term in a form we could all relate to?
Step up gents who think you arnt!!
Or wives who think your husband wasnt.
So far, GQ has been the only one here who claimed he isn't a MOBer (a typical one that is).
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Oh?
Mind sharing who these men are?
Well, I tried and it was removed. It's not my fault the sensibilities of the forum don't extend to naming and shaming. But one thing I'm not is deliberately passive aggressive unless the forum forces me to be so.
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So far, GQ has been the only one here who claimed he isn't a MOBer (a typical one that is).
I thought it was fairly damn obvious that I'm not.
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Well, I tried and it was removed.
My post was completely tongue in cheek. :)
I was just completing the circle started by Muzh:
Oh?
Mind sharing who the sots are?
[Mind sharing who the sots are?/quote]
Yes!
So if you mind, then why make such comment?
There are some very bizarre men on these here boards Muzh.
Oh?
Mind sharing who these men are?
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So far, GQ has been the only one here who claimed he isn't a MOBer (a typical one that is).
I agree, and why i find any fuss amusing..
and actually, I did not see GQ claim that.
He went to the FSU, not to Germany, not to France, not to Canada.
He took a trip, with pre-scheduled meetings with many in Moscow and attending from other cities.Just like many before or since.
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I agree, and why i find any fuss amusing..
and actually, I did not see GQ claim that.
How about this in the second post:
So, aside from being so darn sexy, let me count other ways I KNOW I'm not a typical MOBer.....
He went to the FSU, not to Germany, not to France, not to Canada.
He took a trip, with pre-scheduled meetings with many in Moscow and attending from other cities.Just like many before or since.
I agree, sounds like a typical MOB'er to me.
But GQ has different views about this. ;)
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He posted he is not your average/typical MOB'r.
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There are some very bizarre men on these here boards Muzh
Indeed.....They've crossed over into the Twilight Zone.
Maybe. Bizarre is not a "black and white" term. My impression is that most of us are somewhere along the bizarre continuum. In fact, I have always been attracted to the bizarre, as someone who marches to a different drum.
What do I dislike? I have mentioned the sanctimonious and the arrogant. However, this thread brought out a guttersnipe and one from the MSU college. MSU does not stand for Michigan State University nor even Mississippi State U. It is an acronym for "Make Shit Up." I question the ethics of MSU people.
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I thought it was fairly damn obvious that I'm not.
Yet it depends on ones difinition wouldn't it?
So not in your mind, and you understandably like to distance yourself,and you can.
For my difinition you are perhaps an outlier,sure!
but odds are still great if the drivers behind the MOB industry, and if the MOB industry had never existed, your wife would have been far less likely to be contacting a foregn man on an international dating website.
You might not have been looking, she was.You met a foreign women from the FSU online and met and married her.
Then all the most typical disclaimers are started, you wernt even looking, she wasn't really looking for a foregner etc.
But she knew you were when she wrote ..
so you'll counter if she was from France it wouldnt apply right?
Ade i've always valued your insight and advice..
and understood the natural distancing ..
but I've equally never understood the disdain or interest here,
if its all *so* bad to be even slightly associated with.
I don't know everyones story or motivations,
its doubtful anyone here does.
Those who met thru work,or country of residence
at the time. seem the candidates for non MOB label.
but thats my difinition.
BC
jb
Beo
some outliers like you would be there as well
feel better?
you do,and to me that's the weird part.
I don't feel the least bit odd or guilty, or any less of a person because i happened to email,chat .call and then meet my wife because the MOB industry existed or the underlying economic factors that drive it. I know quite well she wouyldnt have met me if they did not exist.
Still, I sleep well at night, my ethics and morals intact.
You can ask her if her situation was taken advantage of..expoitive, or if she feels i'm a SRM from my life choices,
because isnt that what this debate boils down to?
Whether we are going to define MOB as guys who did this because they chose to, or did because they had to?
Then leave out that the KEY point, that the women likely wouldnt be invoved at all with either man, if the economics dint drive the MOB industry to exist.
Why do we all keep side stepping the actual point?
:popcorn:
I'm not thrilled the world has various ecomomic and cultural drivers that make many ,women in particular, more prone to look for more equal footing than where they reside.
isnt that a huge factor that defines MOB?
but I'm certainly not going to apologize for something I did not create,and have no ability to change.Nor will I apologize for utilizing easily available resources,like dating sites and email, to look in multiple countries,my own and others.
Is this going to come down to defining who was knowingly taking advantage of ecomomic disparity?
Nefarious ,or sincere, intentions actually apply in such cases?
Or only when the ecomomic disparity isnt great enough?
Sliding scale anyone?
Pretty slippery slope.
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He posted he is not your average/typical MOB'r.
I'm sorry Beo,
but the term
Average Mail Order Brider,,just cracks most anyone up!
no?
So some people somehow feel better to be called
not your average mail order brider?
I can see it, right up until you peel the onion.
Above average Mail Order Brider!!
:ROFL:
<< For the record, i'd like my hero member status
changed to reflect *slightly above average MOBer*
Unless a poll is taken and shows i'm a bit below average, and i could live with that designation too.
:D
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I'm not sure I fit any of the specific criteria on GQ's list yet I consider myself a MoB'r. How couldn't I be? Despite never having been to Russia, or Ukraine, etc., I met my wife after a couple of weeks on EM. She came to the states on a visa 2 months later and after spending 6 months together here we got married.
I think this is just semantics....GQ is a pretty brilliant guy even if he can be disagreeable occasionally. If someone had knowledge of this foreign wife process, if even loosely, and they have pursued it - you're a MoB'r. The details, the content, doesn't really matter.
For me, I knew a guy who had been to the Ukraine and during a low point I signed onto EM - never in my wildest dreams did I think or plan I would go to Russia (not willing to share why, it just wasn't an option) to meet a woman - it was solely mental masturbation and quite frankly, pretty selfish of me to waste peoples time - but, like a good dog, I responded to positive reinforcement and stuck around until I corresponded with my now wife and suddenly it all changed and it all became very real for me. I'm a MoB'r whether I like the label (I don't) or not.
Off Topic - if my posts lately seem screwy or even incoherent, my apologies, I blame my IPad. I'm finding it difficult to use with the site and have about given up on fixing grammar etc - not sure why it acts so weird here.
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I'm sorry Beo,
but the term
Average Mail Order Brider,,just cracks most anyone up!
no?
So some people somehow feel better to be called
not your average mail order brider?
I can see it, right up until you peel the onion.
Above average Mail Order Brider!!
:ROFL:
<< For the record, i'd like my hero member status
changed to reflect *slightly above average MOBer*
Unless a poll is taken and shows i'm a bit below average, and i could live with that designation too.
:D
I make a lot of money peeling those onions, Jumper. ;)
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LOL. This thread really riled some people up, eh? I think it's great!
I already laid out what *I* defined as a typical MOBer...The social rejects and the old geezers. The list highlighted actions exercised by your typical MOBer. I really didn't think that required too much elaboration, but sadly....it apparently does. :(
What I defined a typical MOBers are what the Dean from the School of Smooth used to describe as the *SRMs* - the Second-Rate Muthas...The butt-ugly ones, the fat ones and the very-very old.
Now, I'm not saying ALL of the people in this venture are either ugly, fat or the very old. Just most of them. For those who aren't, *like me for instance*, we are but a few in numbers comparatively. Again, if you don't believe me, go and attend one or two AM/FSUW couple parties and look at the hubbies and literally count how many of them fall within the 3 defined MOBer groups vs those who are not. That's about as telling* as it's ever going to get. Matter of fact, don't be surprised to see one, two, maybe more that will fit all 3 definitions MOBers/SRMs.
Heck, in this thread alone it's very easy to spot the ones who fall in either of these three groups. The more hostile the reaction, the likelier the guy fits at least two of the description, if not all three - your bonafide SRMs - LOL.
Yeah in a way you feel sorry for these blokes (not), I mean it must be so tough for some of them to dupe a woman even in places like the FSU, no? They have to resort into drastic measures just to try and mask their MOBer/SRM nature. Some likely just end up buying a wife when all is said and done. I mean, can any of you imagine speaking with someone who doesn't speak English? Isn't communication the very basic element when starting any form of an association with another, much less 'marriage'? It amuses me to no end when they cite how they find compatibility with a woman they just met but can't talk to beyond:
"Me, buy you fur...you, no speak - show tits...we, chaka-chaka...! Yes?".
"Ah..Harasho! Da! You fur...buy, buy, buy!"
...as both party nod their heads in unison like the silly bobble-head figure.
I mean...what's the point of that at all? You can't talk to your wife so you find yourself constantly talking to strangers in places like the elevators instead and because of it and actually brag about it? WTF! How stupid is that?
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Yet it depends on ones difinition wouldn't it?
Of course, you can redefine anything any way you like. "Reject your reality and substitute my own" kinda thing.
So not in your mind, and you understandably like to distance yourself,and you can.
For my difinition you are perhaps an outlier,sure!
but odds are still great if the drivers behind the MOB industry, and if the MOB industry had never existed, your wife would have been far less likely to be contacting a foregn man on an international dating website.
Given that she'd worked and travelled in France, Belgium and Germany I'd say that the chances of her falling for a foreigner was higher than average - just like my ex Norwegian wife. Or are you saying she was a MOB too? ;)
I think GQ makes some good points. There are reasons why many start sniffing around the FSU for women to marry and they aren't usually flattering. Why you did so is beyond me though; you're relatively young, good looking and successful as far as I understand and not too weird as far as I can tell. The type of guy that should have had a line of good looking girls wanting to date him at home. So why did you go hunting around in the FSU?
Do I "feel better" disassociating myself from the typical MOBer mindset? Well, I can't say I care enough about what others think to feel better about it really. Just call it an intellectual exercise. ;)
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I guess i'm a typical mob'er, whatever that means!
Fathertime!
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.......and it is nothing new.
The concept of mail-order brides was first seen on the American frontier during the mid-1800s. Men from the East were migrating West in hopes of claiming land, farming, establishing businesses, and finding gold. Most of these men found financial success in the migration West, but the one thing that was missing was the company of a wife. Very few women lived in the West at this time, so it was hard for these men to settle down and start a family. Their only choice was to attract women living back East; the men wrote letters to churches and published personal advertisements in magazines and newspapers. In return, the women would write to the men and send them photographs of themselves.
http://listverse.com/2010/02/17/top-10-facts-about-mail-order-brides/ (http://listverse.com/2010/02/17/top-10-facts-about-mail-order-brides/)
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.......and it is nothing new.
The concept of mail-order brides was first seen on the American frontier during the mid-1800s. Men from the East were migrating West in hopes of claiming land, farming, establishing businesses, and finding gold. Most of these men found financial success in the migration West, but the one thing that was missing was the company of a wife. Very few women lived in the West at this time, so it was hard for these men to settle down and start a family. Their only choice was to attract women living back East; the men wrote letters to churches and published personal advertisements in magazines and newspapers. In return, the women would write to the men and send them photographs of themselves.
http://listverse.com/2010/02/17/top-10-facts-about-mail-order-brides/ (http://listverse.com/2010/02/17/top-10-facts-about-mail-order-brides/)
Glyden,
You are correct. This was particularily true for Seattle. There are several books written about this topic. As I recall, one of them was about the Mercer Girls (Mercer Island) in Seattle.
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LOL. This thread really riled some people up, eh? I think it's great!
Riled up? No, I think it gave two members of RWD an opportunity to distance themselves from everyone else by declaring themselves atypical MOB'ers, one of whom likes to pee sitting down (no, not you BO).
I think that's great. :)
... the 3 defined MOBer groups
Besides being an atypical MOB'er, it seems GQ is also mathematically challenged. :)
I already laid out what *I* defined as a typical MOBer...The social rejects and the old geezers, the butt-ugly ones, the fat ones.
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Riled up? No, I think it gave two members of RWD an opportunity to distance themselves from everyone else by declaring themselves atypical MOB'ers, one of whom likes to pee sitting down (no, not you BO).
You should try it some time; you can even read silly threads like this while doing so if you're that way inclined. Sort of adds a whole new meaning to "pissing match". As a bonus, you'll have a properly clean bathroom for a change and your wife won't have to clean up your mess any more. Everyone's a winner.
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You should try it some time (pee sitting down); you can even read silly threads like this while doing so if you're that way inclined. Sort of adds a whole new meaning to "pissing match". As a bonus, you'll have a properly clean bathroom for a change and your wife won't have to clean up your mess any more. Everyone's a winner.
Well, I can teach you "young-en's" something here.
For many years I was a 'stander' and then decided to become a 'sitter' (at home only; none of this sitting in public toilets thing), and now I am back to a 'stander.'
Reason, as your prostate starts to tighten up (yes, it will happen to you), your bladder will not completely empty when you are a 'sitter.' In which case, the 'sitter' will become a 'squirter' when he stands up, and you will be aimed not at the toilet, but rather at the doorway.
Only good solution . . . install a urinal in your home.
This is a public service announcement.
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For many years I was a 'stander' and then decided to become a 'sitter' (at home only; none of this sitting in public toilets thing), and now I am back to a 'stander.'
Reason, as your prostate starts to tighten up (yes, it will happen to you), your bladder will not completely empty when you are a 'sitter.'
Evidently Ade has this problem already because he has time to read RWD while peeing. Ade, perhaps you need to see a urologist if it takes you that long to pee.
Reason, as your prostate starts to tighten up (yes, it will happen to you), your bladder will not completely empty when you are a 'sitter.' In which case, the 'sitter' will become a 'squirter' when he stands up, and you will be aimed not at the toilet, but rather at the doorway.
I don't understand this, why wouldn't your penis be aimed downwards at the floor rather than horizontally at the door? This seems possible only if a) you have somehow aroused yourself while sitting or b) your short length has trouble clearing your fly. [Note to ML: TMI always opens you up for such jesting.]
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Doesn't really matter what we call ourselves or what others call us.
In any event, the vast majority of us have looked or traveled to the FSU to get something we could not get at home.
Yes, many of us are either fat, balding, old, social rejects, no teeth, no money, no education, too short, SRMs (or all of the above).
Others of us are none of the above.
But the 'all of the abovers' and the 'none of the abovers' are still in the same boat because we looked or went to FSU to find what we wanted.
I have freely admitted and posted several times that I wanted a slender woman. Yes, there are some in USA (in the 40s age bracket), but the small supply of them and the high demand for them made the price (measured in many terms) too high.
And just to add a note indicating what a SRM I am . . .
I analyze and advise on multimillion dollar (and even billion dollar) mergers and acquisitions; but just now I am regulated by my Gal to only add up the points she gave for each problem in grading the senior level course in differential equations. I cannot be trusted to actually grade the problems !! :-[ :( :'(
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LOL. This thread really riled some people up, eh? I think it's great!
Someone like you would get their kicks from insulting people and then getting an extra kick if they reacted sourly.
Actually, I am not riled up. I just dislike conceited people, especially when they are not really different.
I already laid out what *I* defined as a typical MOBer...The social rejects and the old geezers.
Yes, and you further defined that the "...majority of them (yes, not all) are social rejects and old geezers." It is clear by "them" you meant RWDers because you write immediately, "You can literally see that in their daily postings."
Your post today confuses me. Now you write not two categories of MOBers but three: "the butt-ugly ones, the fat ones and the very-very old." What happened to the social rejects category?
Now, I'm not saying ALL of the people in this venture are either ugly, fat or the very old. Just most of them. For those who aren't, *like me for instance*, we are but a few in numbers comparatively.
Man, get a grip on life. Self-aggrandizing again.
BTW, fat and homely does not make one a social reject, so I appreciate your clarification today. It seems that by confining yourself to physical appearance, I gather your hostility is based on the contrast between the beauty of a RW and the physical shortcomings of AM who pursue them.
If so, I must ask you about one shortcoming that you neglected. Why would a short man marry a woman who towers over him? This is as odd as the fact that basketball is the most popular sport in the land of your ancestors even though they are some of the shortest people on earth. I would guess that this is because they love the nature of the sport, much as an AM and RW enjoy each other for whom they are rather than what they are (to paraphase something you wrote much earlier).
Jumper just entered this thread and he is amused by your false conceit. Let us contrast you with Jumper. Jumper is far better looking, and even looks European. He is a celebrity of sorts, and based on his postings over the years understands people especially women better than you. He says he is short, so you may be taller, but after meeting you I don't see how that is possible.
Given this, does Jumper place himself on a pedestal and expect people to address him as "Your Highness?" No, his humility cup runneth over. He seems like a well adjusted person.
You can't talk to your wife so you find yourself constantly talking to strangers in places like the elevators instead and because of it and actually brag about it? WTF! How stupid is that?
That would be weird if that were the case. First, years ago my wife and I advanced from not being able to have a serious conversation. Second, I do not consider people whom I never met (e. g., almost everyone at RWD) to be beneath me. Being gregarious, loquacious and full of confidence, I relish chatting with strangers (you should meet a couple of my friends who make me appear shy and reserved). I have done it for years and years, long before RW.
Some people participate on forums because they want to be something that they are not. Is that you?
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Some people participate on forums because they want to be something that they are not. Is that you?
Yes, it is me. I have longed to be a trashy novel writer. The money is very good if you can produce a hit. So I am here to read a lot of trash and practice writing trash.
Ooopps, I have just been given another stack of exams to add up the points . . . .
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You will need to adopt a good female nom de plum as, other than Sidney Sheldon and Jeffrey Archer, I can't think of too many successful male trash novel writers. Something like "Tiffany de Brule". Playful, but serious and "classy".
You'll have to up your game from what you've posted here, though. Ever read Fifty Shades of Grey?
Finally, the genre seems to focus on supernatural lovers these days. I personally blame Josh Whedon, though I like Buffy, the Vampire Slayer. I like the series for two reasons. First, my husband doesn't roll his eyes when I watch it, though I can't say he is a fan, and second, I like the superhot male vampire eye candy. (Note to GQ - David Boreanaz is a lot fatter now, but he's still hot :P ) . Vampires, succubi, werewolves, and demons are overrepresented in the genre. Perhaps you could take some inspiration from Gogol's Viy, or base your protagonist on Zeus, who, since the disappearance of pagan worship, has wandered the earth in mortal disguise, seeking ever more interesting sexual experiences, though he is still a little flummoxed by female emancipation. He's even read Fifty Shades of Grey for tips into the female psyche.
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...blah, blah, blah...
You got hostile but then bitch about getting insulted. What a concept!
It just so happen the shoe fit you perfectly well, old fart. That's not an insult, that's life.
Understand?
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For many years I was a 'stander' and then decided to become a 'sitter' (at home only; none of this sitting in public toilets thing), and now I am back to a 'stander.' Reason, as your prostate starts to tighten up (yes, it will happen to you), your bladder will not completely empty when you are a 'sitter.' In which case, the 'sitter' will become a 'squirter' when he stands up, and you will be aimed not at the toilet, but rather at the doorway. Only good solution . . . install a urinal in your home.
...or use the sink, it's already there at no additional expense ;).
Such age-related prostate problems are usually caused by an internal adenomatous growth (a benign tumor) that enlarges the gland volume and thus constricts both bladder and urethra, creating a host of annoying micturition problems such as waking up 2-3 times/night to empty the constricted gland - the condition is easy to diagnose with a simple echography, although urologists will always insist to verify with their gloved index finger :(.
It can be remedied by intra-urethral laser surgery, a 2/3-hour procedure requiring a 3-4/day hospitalisation. I had one 3 months ago and things are now much better :D.
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Of course, you can redefine anything any way you like. "Reject your reality and substitute my own" kinda thing.
[size=78%]Given that she'd worked and travelled in France, Belgium and Germany I'd say that the chances of her falling for a foreigner was higher than average - just like my ex Norwegian wife. Or are you saying she was a MOB too? [/size] ;)
I think GQ makes some good points. There are reasons why many start sniffing around the FSU for women to marry and they aren't usually flattering. Why you did so is beyond me though; you're relatively young, good looking and successful as far as I understand and not too weird as far as I can tell. The type of guy that should have had a line of good looking girls wanting to date him at home. So why did you go hunting around in the FSU?
Do I "feel better" disassociating myself from the typical MOBer mindset? Well, I can't say I care enough about what others think to feel better about it really. Just call it an intellectual exercise. ;)
Ade..
Actually I'm simply amused as usual..
:)
My choices can be pretty comical..even to me!!
i've traveled further to pick up a good helmet with a cool paint job.
I've been on most every continent and enjoy travel..or even the silliest of adventures..
I just never have considered it any real big deal to go to any given city for a date if someone caught my attention.. things can be truly random and it could have just as easily been the german woman i met prior in Frankfort..or a woman from madision..
yet it wasnt, and i DID indeed look, and end up in the FSU.
I'm not much a a rock tosser anyway,but that in itself, is a good reason why i wouldn't be tossing any stones here.
as you see Ade, i'm a MOBer, as noted.
Now to me, the bold text seems to perfectly apply to others that are chucking stones ? so yes it amuses me.
and it seems to me the rocks get larger, as time from initial travels and meetings passes by..
It's just a phenomenon i've noticed in general..from many posters actually!!
I'm sure it bears no meaning, but it is interesting.
So here's what i'm trying to get out of this thread- some definition.
I see folks still seemingly side stepped around the real key- exploitation?
The real disdain for the *AMOBer* seems to be produced by the fact
he used the economic disparity to exploit . To overcome some of his own shortcomings or social ineptitude ?
So on a sliding scale,
how much below an average male, does this Av'MOBer have to be before its exploitative?
Is it always simply true by default?
or only if he's fat , social reject, or old?
Does it depend on the FSUW's station in life and income as well?
What if he is quite well off, a captain of industry, and she's a shop dev?
ouch right? I mean he could have hit ventura right over the 101 and got the same for the same reasons.
If he's handsome ,or not so very old , is it then ok?
what is he is old , fat,or heavens sake bald?
What if he is bus driver..and meets a struggling hairdresser.
Are they not closer ti the same page by default?
One that was looking to relocate on her own like millions of FSU people have done without a life ring. or husband to support them.
If he as not so old, not bald and decent looking..
Would that be less exploitive somehow?
Those kind of men are often beat up here about how they cant possibly make this work.
But thats kind of odd isnt it?given that hundreds of thousands of FSU women live in my area and came here sans any help.
So the board itself often advises such men to check reality and their finances, they should be more established and able.
Because its *ok* if he has more going for him?
But to me that seems to go right in the face of the exploitation angle,
and hence my amusement.
So about MOB labels:
The poor man cant pull it off with a poor woman..
(why? i have no idea , but that's the consensus)
The average joe, cant either if he has any physical shortcomings..
as he simply defines MOB.
Unless, perhaps ,shes considerably more wealthy than him, then it would likely be fine right? lol
The wealthy guy cant if he is using it in any way as a crutch for some social, physical, or age shortcomings..
and so on..
but a well off, to wealthy guy, with charisma and charm , its perfectly ok to meet FSU women and marry one, as long as he has that golden disclaimer he could easily date locally ,but for whatever reason did not.
Dear me now THATS funny.
:ROFL:
because exploitation,is the actually elephant in this room,
, and none of the above BS matters or changes it one bit.
You brought up a great point about your Norwegian ex.
My first wife was Irish.. we met quite naturally, continuing relationship that led to marriage
No one thought or would think MOB today.
Some many years ago, they would have.
Why has that definition changed for Irish folks to the Americas?
Because the economic factors are closer.
So each couples respective personal economics don't closely factor in?
Just the general country/regions view?
To me thats both very interesting and convenient..
:popcorn:
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Actually I'm simply amused as usual..
It's been a most entertaining thread. It smacks of LP in the days before RWD was even conceived.
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You will need to adopt a good female nom de plum as, other than Sidney Sheldon and Jeffrey Archer, I can't think of too many successful male trash novel writers. Something like "Tiffany de Brule". Playful, but serious and "classy".
You'll have to up your game from what you've posted here, though. Ever read Fifty Shades of Grey?
Finally, the genre seems to focus on supernatural lovers these days. I personally blame Josh Whedon, though I like Buffy, the Vampire Slayer. I like the series for two reasons. First, my husband doesn't roll his eyes when I watch it, though I can't say he is a fan, and second, I like the superhot male vampire eye candy. (Note to GQ - David Boreanaz is a lot fatter now, but he's still hot :P ) . Vampires, succubi, werewolves, and demons are overrepresented in the genre. Perhaps you could take some inspiration from Gogol's Viy, or base your protagonist on Zeus, who, since the disappearance of pagan worship, has wandered the earth in mortal disguise, seeking ever more interesting sexual experiences, though he is still a little flummoxed by female emancipation. He's even read Fifty Shades of Grey for tips into the female psyche.
Thanks for the advice. Perhaps others can suggest a good pen name for me to use
Up my game ??? . . . we already have many here who scream like a stuck pig when I have written a tiny bit of R rated material!!!
I have not read 50 shades. I was going to get it for my Gal, but then I read something that led me to believe it gave a lot of negative thoughts about men; so decided against it.
As an aside: On Tony awards show, the gay emcee, looked out at crowd and said . . . "Oh my, 50 shades of gay."
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...or use the sink, it's already there at no additional expense ;) .
I had a custom made cabinet that holds the sink a little higher than standard so I wouldn't have to lean over so far to rinse off my face after soaping up. So your suggestion wouldn't work; but thanks!!
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.
Such age-related prostate problems are usually caused by an internal adenomatous growth (a benign tumor) that enlarges the gland volume and thus constricts both bladder and urethra, creating a host of annoying micturition problems such as waking up 2-3 times/night to empty the constricted gland - the condition is easy to diagnose with a simple echography, although urologists will always insist to verify with their gloved index finger :( .
It can be remedied by intra-urethral laser surgery, a 2/3-hour procedure requiring a 3-4/day hospitalisation. I had one 3 months ago and things are now much better :D .
Yes, I am quite familiar with the causes and cures. For myself, Proscar and Flomax have kept the seriousness at bay.
But I know of several men who have had various types of operations.
I am sure the women and young bucks here enjoy this sub-thread of information!! :-[ :o
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Yes, I am quite familiar with the causes and cures. For myself, Proscar and Flomax have kept the seriousness at bay.
Enough that your pen name could be I P Freely? :D
Have you tried sawtooth palmetto - a traditional"herbal" medication, even used by Native Americans centuries ago for a variety of ailments? Helps me, plus it is inexpensive without the usual concerns for side effects from synthesized meds.
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So here's what i'm trying to get out of this thread- some definition.
I see folks still seemingly side stepped around the real key- exploitation?
The real disdain for the *AMOBer* seems to be produced by the fact
he used the economic disparity to exploit . To overcome some of his own shortcomings or social ineptitude ?[
So on a sliding scale,
how much below an average male, does this Av'MOBer have to be before its exploitative?
Is it always simply true by default?
or only if he's fat , social reject, or old?
Does it depend on the FSUW's station in life and income as well?
What if he is quite well off, a captain of industry, and she's a shop dev?
ouch right? I mean he could have hit ventura right over the 101 and got the same for the same reasons.
If he's handsome ,or not so very old , is it then ok?
what is he is old , fat,or heavens sake bald?
What if he is bus driver..and meets a struggling hairdresser.
Are they not closer ti the same page by default?
One that was looking to relocate on her own like millions of FSU people have done without a life ring. or husband to support them.
If he as not so old, not bald and decent looking..
Would that be less exploitive somehow?
Those kind of men are often beat up here about how they cant possibly make this work.
But thats kind of odd isnt it?given that hundreds of thousands of FSU women live in my area and came here sans any help.
So the board itself often advises such men to check reality and their finances, they should be more established and able.
Because its *ok* if he has more going for him?
But to me that seems to go right in the face of the exploitation angle,
and hence my amusement.
So about MOB labels:
The poor man cant pull it off with a poor woman..
(why? i have no idea , but that's the consensus)
The average joe, cant either if he has any physical shortcomings..
as he simply defines MOB.
Unless, perhaps ,shes considerably more wealthy than him, then it would likely be fine right? lol
The wealthy guy cant if he is using it in any way as a crutch for some social, physical, or age shortcomings..
and so on..
but a well off, to wealthy guy, with charisma and charm , its perfectly ok to meet FSU women and marry one, as long as he has that golden disclaimer he could easily date locally ,but for whatever reason did not.
Dear me now THATS funny.
:ROFL:
because exploitation,is the actually elephant in this room,
, and none of the above BS matters or changes it one bit.
You brought up a great point about your Norwegian ex.
My first wife was Irish.. we met quite naturally, continuing relationship that led to marriage
No one thought or would think MOB today.
Some many years ago, they would have.
Why has that definition changed for Irish folks to the Americas?
Because the economic factors are closer.
So each couples respective personal economics don't closely factor in?
Just the general country/regions view?
To me thats both very interesting and convenient..
:popcorn:
Of course it's exploitative, and I've raised the economic disparity in the past, only to be "pooh poohed". Men usually explain this away with "She has a great job and life.", and "All the men are drunkards." However, Lithuania has a greater rate of alcoholism than Ukraine, and beautiful slim women, but men aren't going there to find wives. Why? Oh, could it be that Lithuanians are part of the EU?
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Of course it's exploitative, and I've raised the economic disparity in the past, only to be "pooh poohed". Men usually explain this away with "She has a great job and life.", and "All the men are drunkards." However, Lithuania has a greater rate of alcoholism than Ukraine, and beautiful slim women, but men aren't going there to find wives. Why? Oh, could it be that Lithuanians are part of the EU?
Lithuania has not been on the radar on these boards so much for the MOB pursuit since I have been hanging around. Since 2005. Mentioned a few times in passing but, not much more. Early on in my interest I checked into Lithuania and recall only one agency searchable on the net. Reading further I found a numerous articles that referred to it as a place for sex tourism mainly for Brits until Lithuania joined the EU. Is that a coincidence ya think?
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Andrewfi resided and worked in Estonia. Not Lithuania, but a Baltic Country nevertheless.
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However, Lithuania has a greater rate of alcoholism than Ukraine, and beautiful slim women, but men aren't going there to find wives. Why? Oh, could it be that Lithuanians are part of the EU?
Many sham marriages involve Lithuanian women to foreign non-EU nationals precisely because they can facilitate the obtention of a EU Passport :-X
http://www.baltictimes.com/news/articles/32457/ (http://www.baltictimes.com/news/articles/32457/)
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Beo, That is my point, very precious few here would be exempt.
The random disclaimers of not being
bald ,fat , socially inept, or old ,
simply dont matter in the bigger picture do they?
but hey certain qualifiers lets us MOBers somehow differentiate amoungst ourselves whom was less exploitative? and be *better* or different..
All based on some sliding scale mostly dependent on
the MOBer's at hand's in country current dating marketability?
:ROFL:
:popcorn:
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Perhaps it is the wrong question. A better question may be for men to ask why they chose to look in the FSU (and I mean, with absolute honesty), and whether they are willing to marry and commit themselves to someone who is not necessarily looking for love, first and foremost.
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Perhaps it is the wrong question. A better question may be for men to ask why they chose to look in the FSU (and I mean, with absolute honesty), and whether they are willing to marry and commit themselves to someone who is not necessarily looking for love.
I think to define what an MOB is,
is a good question actually..
I also think its an uncomfortable one, particularly for any who really want to distance themselves by the various disclaimers ;)
The longer they try to make thier arms to push away,from the undesirables, the more the very core of the subject comes to light ,and tosses them right in with the whole lot.
Just like society as a whole views it.
I'm sure it's a bit uncomfortable.
Reality often is.
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I also think its an uncomfortable one, particularly for any who really want to
distance themselves by the various disclaimers
Isn't that pretty much everyone? >:D
Yours truly excluded, of course.
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whether they are willing to marry and commit themselves to someone who is not necessarily looking for love, first and foremost.
My answer when still single and looking would have been no.
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Many sham marriages involve Lithuanian women to foreign non-EU nationals precisely because they can facilitate the obtention of a EU Passport :-X
http://www.baltictimes.com/news/articles/32457/ (http://www.baltictimes.com/news/articles/32457/)
Poland had the same issue a few years ago, but the grooms tended to be third worlders from Africa and Asia. Often, the women were duped and dumped once the paperwork was completed (or at least, claimed to be).
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I'm not sure I fit any of the specific criteria on GQ's list yet I consider myself a MoB'r. How couldn't I be? Despite never having been to Russia, or Ukraine, etc., I met my wife after a couple of weeks on EM. She came to the states on a visa 2 months later and after spending 6 months together here we got married.
I think this is just semantics....GQ is a pretty brilliant guy even if he can be disagreeable occasionally. If someone had knowledge of this foreign wife process, if even loosely, and they have pursued it - you're a MoB'r. The details, the content, doesn't really matter.
For me, I knew a guy who had been to the Ukraine and during a low point I signed onto EM - never in my wildest dreams did I think or plan I would go to Russia (not willing to share why, it just wasn't an option) to meet a woman - it was solely mental masturbation and quite frankly, pretty selfish of me to waste peoples time - but, like a good dog, I responded to positive reinforcement and stuck around until I corresponded with my now wife and suddenly it all changed and it all became very real for me. I'm a MoB'r whether I like the label (I don't) or not.
Off Topic - if my posts lately seem screwy or even incoherent, my apologies, I blame my IPad. I'm finding it difficult to use with the site and have about given up on fixing grammar etc - not sure why it acts so weird here.
Salty, I think you are missing one adjective: typical.
My interpretation of GQs list is that, among others, your typical MOBr cannot find a date home because they are feminazi bitches, are all fat, a stunning woman would NOT consider a 20+ age difference with a so-so guy, money talks, want a 'traditional' woman (whatever that means), etc.
An atypical MOBr is a guy who has no problems with women from his neighborhood, er......., I guess that sums it up.
Between you and me, I see a lot of inadequacies in this MOB business. It boils down to many guys who have the resources to spend on finding and importing a woman from an economically disadvantaged country who barely speaks the language making her very vulnerable to his whims, as in he is in total control. Tell me if that is a sign or not of a man having problems with women. (I've seen too many for my own comfort.)
I certainly do not feel I belong to a group like that. You and I have talked previously and I know you don't fall in that category. Neither Ade. Nor BC. Nor a few others.
If we want to make this technical, my wife was the one who had to pay for her letters, not me. She called me "her boyfriend" when she talked to her parents for the first time. I can go on and on.
I believe GQ was talking about human decency.
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...or use the sink, it's already there at no additional expense ;) .
LMFAO
You, my friend, are a very resourceful man. :thumbsup:
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Poland had the same issue a few years ago, but the grooms tended to be third worlders from Africa and Asia. Often, the women were duped and dumped once the paperwork was completed (or at least, claimed to be).
Hardly different for the women from the Baltics. There have been many cases of women being paid, then going to Ireland to marry men, quite often from Pakistan or other locales, in order for the men to get their EU paperwork. The sums they received were not that large based on news reports I read in Estonia: a few thousand Euros at most...
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I just never have considered it any real big deal to go to any given city for a date if someone caught my attention.. things can be truly random and it could have just as easily been the german woman i met prior in Frankfort..or a woman from madision..
Oh boy, what you have reminded me of from years back.
When I was in college I dated a girl in Miami. I lived in San Juan so I would travel to Miami on Friday and a back home on either Sunday or Monday. This went on for about 3 or 4 months when on one trip to Miami I met this hot babe at the airport and she was from NYC. So, I called my dad and he called the airline and, presto, my pass was changed to LGA.
It was bye bye to the Miami babe but the weekend with the New Yorker was worth it.
Yow, that was buried deep in my memory banks.
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Gave up an ongoing relationship with a multi-millionaire AW, who is a half-marathoner, competitive tennis player (my favorite sport) and good cyclist/triathlete, to become engaged to a penniless, non-athletic but darling UW. The AW is 90#, 5'1"...so no obesity issues. Why? My UW has pure, caring, loving, delightful, engaging, charming, devoted SOUL...mostly absent in my AW former significant other.
Am I a desperate MOB'er who can't score in the US? (My AW wants to reengage in relationship even though she knows that I am now in Ukraine with my fiancee ).
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Have you tried sawtooth palmetto - a traditional "herbal" medication, even used by Native Americans centuries ago for a variety of ailments? Helps me, plus it is inexpensive without the usual concerns for side effects from synthesized meds.
I tried it, too, but the problem with it, as well as other medications, is that at best they may prevent further adenomatous growth, but NOT cause it to regress. Therefore, surgery is, alas, the only effective solution ;).
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Between you and me, I see a lot of inadequacies in this MOB business. It boils down to many guys who have the resources to spend on finding and importing a woman from an economically disadvantaged country who barely speaks the language making her very vulnerable to his whims, as in he is in total control. Tell me if that is a sign or not of a man having problems with women. (I've seen too many for my own comfort.)
In light of some of the active recent discussion, I needed to read this again.
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For the sake of discussion,
My original exposure to the MOB industry was two fold. First, an old classmate imported a woman from Mexico, married her and cranked out two children. He got tired of her and left her after six or seven years and and is now remarried to an AW who, he claims, is the love of his life.
My second exposure, many years later, was to a colleague who claimed that he had just married the most beautiful woman whom he had imported from Russia. I found him to be a geek and a social reject. So it came to me that the MOB game was for losers who couldn't be depended on in marriage and certainly could not find wife material here in the States.
Incidentally, this guy's wife left him exactly after four years and now lives up North. Obviously she found out that he was a social reject as well.
Fast forward a couple of years and my travels for business in Russia are now a yearly sojourn. The life I lead demands that I consider a foreign born wife. Am invited to Ukraine to meet with many of the Gvmt officials and meet a beautiful TERP who takes care of me while I am there.
So here I am. Now at a precipice - dangerous to my former life. I am now considering marriage. The life I contemplate is far different than that which I would have scripted for myself. But this life is much fuller and complete than anything I would have contemplated.
Does this make me an MOBer? Absolutely. Did I go through many of the same problems that other MOBers did? Of course. To one degree or another. The real difference, in reading this thread, is that almost unanimously, on this forum, I find people who have given this type of FSUW / WM relationship some thought. Most of them have contemplated what it will really take to make things work.
A couple of months ago we had a gal on here who was substantially younger than the man she married. She went through all of the things he did to make her comfortable in her new home. Somehow, I think most of the users of this forum will provide similar support to a foreign wife. That is why we are here. To make these relationships work.
So, for those of you jaded by years of watching people fail in MOB type relationships, I can honestly say that none of us here are typical MOBers. We are all exceptional for seeking the knowledge to make such a relationship work.
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In light of some of the active recent discussion, I needed to read this again.
I think what you really meant to say was "I wanted others to read this again". ;)
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...So, for those of you jaded by years of watching people fail in MOB type relationships, I can honestly say that none of us here are typical MOBers. We are all exceptional for seeking the knowledge to make such a relationship work.
Don't worry Jone, there's no need to explain yourself. :)
There's plenty more room here on RWD for 'atypical' MOB'ers. :)
Of course there's bound to be objections from the 'genuine' atypical MOB'ers, but that's to be expected. :)
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I think what you really meant to say was "I wanted others to read this again". ;)
No, I thought it would be better to just think it and lurk, so that the forum goes back to a dozen or fewer posts daily.
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For the sake of discussion,
My original exposure to the MOB industry was two fold. First, an old classmate imported a woman from Mexico, married her and cranked out two children. He got tired of her and left her after six or seven years and and is now remarried to an AW who, he claims, is the love of his life.
My second exposure, many years later, was to a colleague who claimed that he had just married the most beautiful woman whom he had imported from Russia. I found him to be a geek and a social reject. So it came to me that the MOB game was for losers who couldn't be depended on in marriage and certainly could not find wife material here in the States.
Incidentally, this guy's wife left him exactly after four years and now lives up North. Obviously she found out that he was a social reject as well.
Fast forward a couple of years and my travels for business in Russia are now a yearly sojourn. The life I lead demands that I consider a foreign born wife. Am invited to Ukraine to meet with many of the Gvmt officials and meet a beautiful TERP who takes care of me while I am there.
So here I am. Now at a precipice - dangerous to my former life. I am now considering marriage. The life I contemplate is far different than that which I would have scripted for myself. But this life is much fuller and complete than anything I would have contemplated.
Does this make me an MOBer? Absolutely. Did I go through many of the same problems that other MOBers did? Of course. To one degree or another. The real difference, in reading this thread, is that almost unanimously, on this forum, I find people who have given this type of FSUW / WM relationship some thought. Most of them have contemplated what it will really take to make things work.
A couple of months ago we had a gal on here who was substantially younger than the man she married. She went through all of the things he did to make her comfortable in her new home. Somehow, I think most of the users of this forum will provide similar support to a foreign wife. That is why we are here. To make these relationships work.
So, for those of you jaded by years of watching people fail in MOB type relationships, I can honestly say that none of us here are typical MOBers. We are all exceptional for seeking the knowledge to make such a relationship work.
It is more likely those women were not suited to those men. I don't like the word "losers", as every person has some redeeming qualit(y)(ies).
I disagree with your perspective that everyone here is "exceptional". Every person has some "exceptional" quality, even if it is not recognized by all. I do think the forum provides information. So, we will have to agree to disagree.
Personally, I don't find the FSU "fascinating". I find the history fascinating, but life there is a grind. Funny, because I was relating lonedrake's experience to my husband. The story was a typical one for him, in observation. He said it's boring for him, but he could understand how those for whom it is something different and "new" would be interested in it, just as he enjoys Westerners for their openness and kindness, while we just take that for granted.
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It is more likely those women were not suited to those men. I don't like the word "losers", as every person has some redeeming qualit(y)(ies).
I disagree with your perspective that everyone here is "exceptional". Every person has some "exceptional" quality, even if it is not recognized by all. I do think the forum provides information. So, we will have to agree to disagree.
Personally, I don't find the FSU "fascinating". I find the history fascinating, but life there is a grind. Funny, because I was relating lonedrake's experience to my husband. The story was a typical one for him, in observation. He said it's boring for him, but he could understand how those for whom it is something different and "new" would be interested in it, just as he enjoys Westerners for their openness and kindness, while we just take that for granted.
I used the term 'Losers' to emphasize that there is a group who represents those worst qualities of MOB seekers. And, yes, we will have to agree to disagree. Because while they have redeeming qualities of other sorts, their handling of bringing a wife to a western country made them to be less than honorable and less than appropriate.
Am writing this winging over Canada on my way home from Ukraine. If you were quoting me using the word 'fascinating', that is not a word I would use for it. Could you please point me to where I would use such a word? The people of the FSU are known to me, but I would never study them as an insect or a hobby. Instead, the word I would use in dealing with the FSU is "perseverance". It is not a place that is immediately friendly to strangers. It is, instead, guarded and withdrawn, opening, like an oyster, only occasionally to share a pearl. As the oyster yields unwillingly, so does the FSU.
That is not to say that those FSU people in hospitality industries are not friendly. They are. But, still, on the streets, there is no casual greeting, no acknowledgement unless known. Westerners still confuse the bulk of people I have met outside of the sophisticated capitals of UA and Russia (I consider SPB a federal or capital city). When I work in Russia, I am accepted as a 'Businessman' and therefore have a role there. That is not the case in UA. So this last trip I worked very hard at being known to people. But, try as I might, I did not achieve much. Sure the lady in my favorite coffee hangout knows who I am and greets me pleasantly each day. The people at my girlfriend's place of work all know me - as do some of her friends and her family. But most simply don't want to be bothered by meeting someone new.
I do not share trip reports. There is much to contemplate over the next few days. It is difficult to express oneself when there are major decisions forthcoming.
But I will easily say that much of what I have learned on this site, mostly from fellow travelers and from those who have married an FSU woman, has been invaluable to me. The thoughts above are real. The contrast could not be more evident. There are those that blindly walk into relationships and allow them to happen. And there are those who weigh the consequences and seek outside counsel. Such a wise approach makes these MOB seekers exceptional.
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No, I thought it would be better to just think it and lurk, so that the forum goes back to a dozen or fewer posts daily.
You have a comeback for everything don't you BO? :) You wanted others to read Muzh’s quote again.
It's nothing to be embarrassed about.
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Of course. :) ::but I wasn't embarrassed.::
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If you were quoting me using the word 'fascinating', that is not a word I would use for it. Could you please point me to where I would use such a word?
I was not quoting you.
The people of the FSU are known to me, but I would never study them as an insect or a hobby. Instead, the word I would use in dealing with the FSU is "perseverance". It is not a place that is immediately friendly to strangers. It is, instead, guarded and withdrawn, opening, like an oyster, only occasionally to share a pearl. As the oyster yields unwillingly, so does the FSU.
Romantic but not, in my experience, realistic. But then, I probably deal with different types of FSU individuals than most here. The majority of people I deal with have extremely rare encounters with foreigners and are working class. Most of them struggle daily. Many are currently unemployed or underemployed. Some have worked (illegally) in the West. Lots of people there will smile to your face, be warm and kind, all while playing an angle on you. I don't view it as a negative, or cynically, it is what it is, and I understand it and the reasons for it. So, I'm never offended.
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As a frequent visitor, but not the continual daily interactor that Boethius is, I still agree with jone's picturesque analogy. The people I have interacted with, as my fiancee's partner, have been what we in the west might call "the working poor", but they are all university graduates, some with postgraduate degrees. They are highly intelligent and grossly underpaid/underemployed, victims of the reigning klepto-oligarchy currently dominating Ukraine and its economy. Being "guarded and withdrawn" is a self-defense and survival mechanism probably originally adopted in Soviet times and continued during the 20 years of independent kleptocracy. Can you blame them?
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Personally, I don't find the FSU "fascinating". I find the history fascinating, but life there is a grind.
Hey Canada Man. My turn to quote her. ::)
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As a frequent visitor, but not the continual daily interactor that Boethius is, I still agree with jone's picturesque analogy.
That's because you are still a tourist.
The people I have interacted with, as my fiancee's partner, have been what we in the west might call "the working poor", but they are all university graduates, some with postgraduate degrees. They are highly intelligent and grossly underpaid/underemployed, victims of the reigning klepto-oligarchy currently dominating Ukraine and its economy. Being "guarded and withdrawn" is a self-defense and survival mechanism probably originally adopted in Soviet times and continued during the 20 years of independent kleptocracy. Can you blame them?
Now that's the real life, the daily grind.
Trust me, the moment you have to survive the same way they do, you will not find it that picturesque.
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Most of the people I interact with are not university graduates. However, I would point out that many, many "university degrees" in Ukraine are not worth the paper they are printed on, and furthermore, many individuals who claim to be university educated are not. There have been "scandals" in several Ukrainian cities where, on investigation, it was learned many professionals did not have degrees at all. In L'viv, in one such investigation, 80% of the degrees had been printed off the internet. There is currently a trial of a "surgeon" who claimed to have a medical degree from Moscow. All his patients had died on the table. He is on trial and still denying, despite facts presented by the prosecution, that he has no medical degree. In fact, he has no degree from any university or technical college.
The mentality, which goes all the way back to the Bolshevik Revolution, is very different from Western mentality.
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That's because you are still a tourist.
Now that's the real life, the daily grind.
Trust me, the moment you have to survive the same way they do, you will not find it that picturesque.
+1000. Or face the humiliations they do on a daily basis.
It's even little things. We took my MIL to the deli here, so she could choose some cheeses she'd enjoy. When she was offered several samples, she remarked at how "civilized" it was here, the clerks didn't treat you as an animal, throwing stuff at you.
My better half disagrees that Ukrainians are the victims of their government. He has always said to them, "які люди, таке і життя" which is very roughly translated to "you get the life you deserve".
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I lived in Ukraine for over a year, it is a grind and a half.
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Most of the people I interact with are not university graduates. However, I would point out that many, many "university degrees" in Ukraine are not worth the paper they are printed on, and furthermore, many individuals who claim to be university educated are not.
You are not talking about the 'Dear Proffesor', the President of Ukraine, are you? :ROFL:
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:) I don't think he has killed anyone on a surgeon's table.
As I have posted in the past, I believe Yanukovych, in Soviet times, worked for a special department of the Soviet government. I posted it was KGB, but it really is an offshoot of the KGB, the MVD.
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Back in the states and awake for a day at the office - or a partial day.
Of interesting note, is that I read through one of the PPL sites to evaluate how many women said that they had college degrees. The answer was over 86% of my sample, when I was originally looking. Then I went on a subscription site to review the same number. It fell to around 47%.
I was amazed at how much more eddicated those women were on the PPL sites. Amazing!
What? I shouldn't believe that they all had degrees? But if they were lying about their education credentials, could they not have been telling the truth about other things too? What a novel idea!
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Of interesting note, is that I read through one of the PPL sites to evaluate how many women said that they had college degrees. The answer was over 86% of my sample, when I was originally looking. Then I went on a subscription site to review the same number. It fell to around 47%.
I was amazed at how much more eddicated those women were on the PPL sites. Amazing!
What? I shouldn't believe that they all had degrees? But if they were lying about their education credentials, could they not have been telling the truth about other things too? What a novel idea!
I was under the impression that a large percentage do actually have degrees. Maybe it is not so much a lie as it is they are not seriously looking for a man and cannot find work in their field? They have degrees but are working as chat girls? :)
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I lived in Ukraine for over a year, it is a grind and a half.
Depends upon with whom one is living...
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Depends upon with whom one is living...
I bow down to your superior experience.
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That's because you are still a tourist.
...and you are not, New Yorker? Being regularly up against the 90/180 days in Ukraine limit for the last year, I don't feel like much of a tourist.
After marriage, in Ukraine, in May, with my residence permit, living in Luhans'k, I'll get back to you, Muzh, if I experience a subjective shift in my opinions on Ukrainian life.
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Put all your cash and credit cards away. You are, by Ukrainian standards, of pensionable age. Live on the average Ukrainian pension for a year. No additional cash for emergencies. No cash if you get ill, for hospital bribes or medicine, other than what you've managed to save from your "pension" income. Then, come back to report to us.
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...and you are not, New Yorker? Being regularly up against the 90/180 days in Ukraine limit for the last year, I don't feel like much of a tourist.
After marriage, in Ukraine, in May, with my residence permit, living in Luhans'k, I'll get back to you, Muzh, if I experience a subjective shift in my opinions on Ukrainian life.
I was typing what Boe is telling you. No need to be redundant.
Thanks Boe.
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Put all your cash and credit cards away. You are, by Ukrainian standards, of pensionable age. Live on the average Ukrainian pension for a year. No additional cash for emergencies. No cash if you get ill, for hospital bribes or medicine, other than what you've managed to save from your "pension" income. Then, come back to report to us.
LMFAO
I'd give anything to see that happening.
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Put all your cash and credit cards away. You are, by Ukrainian standards, of pensionable age. Live on the average Ukrainian pension for a year. No additional cash for emergencies. No cash if you get ill, for hospital bribes or medicine, other than what you've managed to save from your "pension" income. Then, come back to report to us.
I have no argument with your reply or Muzh's. I do not maintain that life in Ukraine is a bowl full of cherries. If you have read my posts, I cite the misery of unemployment and underemployment and being cheated out of a tolerable standard of living by the kleptocrats at the top. I know that pensioners are at the bottom of the heap.
I never said that Ukraine was "picturesque". I said jone's pearl analogy was "picturesque". I believe you two are overreacting or simply delighting in being sarcastically hyper-critical. Your lives must be incredibly boring. If you continue to escalate your frivolous comments, feel free; as a Marine I have been verbally assaulted by champions of uncivil, non-intellectual verbal trashing.
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I was responding to this -
I'll get back to you, Muzh, if I experience a subjective shift in my opinions on Ukrainian life.
You've modified your post, but, our point was, your opinions will always be coloured by your privileged position as a Westerner, or, more precisely, a Western income source, which far exceeds that of the average Ukrainian. Even if you are living with a Ukrainian, she benefits from that Western income.
There is no sarcasm in our posts. We are pointing out that your perception is just far from the reality of how about 90% of Ukrainians live.
It is also not only pensioners. Although government stats say unemployment is falling, in my MIL's area of the city, none of the young men have jobs.
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I was responding to this -
You've modified your post, but, our point was, your opinions will always be coloured by your privileged position as a Westerner, or, more precisely, a Western income source, which far exceeds that of the average Ukrainian. Even if you are living with a Ukrainian, she benefits from that Western income.
There is no sarcasm in our posts. We are pointing out that your perception is just far from the reality of how about 90% of Ukrainians live.
It is also not only pensioners. Although government stats say unemployment is falling, in my MIL's area of the city, none of the young men have jobs.
From what aI have heard from the natives is that the economy and employment is actually gettting worse over the past year.
Perhaps they keep books like the US does. ;D
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You haven't been reading this forum very long, have you? :P
Just long enough to know that some people drink to much before they post.....so I forgive then because they have no clue what they are saying
In light of some of the active recent discussion in the ‘First timer headed to Ukraine’ thread, I needed to read this again. :)
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.... a Western income source, which far exceeds that of the average Ukrainian.
We are pointing out that your perception is just far from the reality of how about 90% of Ukrainians live.
Russians also (except St. Pete and Moscow).
GOB
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From what aI have heard from the natives is that the economy and employment is actually gettting worse over the past year.
Perhaps they keep books like the US does. ;D
:D That is what I hear too, but since "official" figures say the Ukrainian economy is growing, I will assume, for the time being, that they are accurate.
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and.. would the ladies be MOB'ees, or MOB'ettes? :P
They would simply be MOB's! :)
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No offense meant with the following:
What is an average MOBer, and how do you differ? I don't know, GQ, I've read your posts going way back, and your story of meeting, living life, age gap, etc., seems to echo commonalities with many other that I've read and is also divergent from many others. Nothing wrong with that as all of our stories have some aspects in common as well as differences. What I don't understand is the constant need to distance yourself from the elusive, enigmatic, and I reckon stereotypical profile (whatever that is) of an "MOB'er". So what exactly is it? (anyone?)
Perhaps a good thread topic but here would be as good a place as any..
Seems to me that they project what they wish to believe. Some guys will inevitably fit the bill and others won't.
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I will now offer my answer.
A MOB'er (the modern day version) is someone who gets up off his arse, gets on a plane and meets a woman in a foreign country with the hopes of marrying her down the line.
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sounds about right...
a MOBer is like a '49er
they got up off their ass, and made a difficult journey to find somethin valuable
if they were smart and worked at it, they got the gold
and those that sat on their ass - will complain about the unfainess of life
fortune ALWAYS favors the bold