OSCE Chairperson-in-Office and Swiss Foreign Minister, Didier Burkhalter, rates the early presidential elections in Ukraine of May 25 as an important milestone in the process of de-escalation of the crisis. He thanked the election observation mission of the OSCE Office Democratic Institutions and Human Rights (OSCE/ODIHR) to Ukraine and the observation delegation of the OSCE Parliamentary Assembly for their invaluable work.
Commending Ukraine for holding elections with a high turnout, largely in line with international commitments and respectful of fundamental freedoms, despite difficult circumstances and violence and threats in two eastern regions, Burkhalter called on all sides to contribute to a further normalization of the situation in the country.
15% of eligible voters were unable to vote--either on the Crimea or areas where it was too dangerous to attempt setting up ballots.
As I write it has been an overwhelming vote for a Ukraine free of outside influences,free of corruption,free of the past-- and in particular--free of Russia.
There is a lot to do for the new President-- the work of the coalition has been excellent and needs to be carried on-- it is clearly the desire of the people.
I have been asked why I post links-- and others writing-- often there is an excellent assessment and explanation.So much accords with my own views that it is easier to include in full .
Does that include bombing Donetsk Airport as they are doing at this moment?
You live in a world of your own.
Why would Crimea be eligible to vote, its in Russia?
Umm, except that the guy "voted" for was chosen by Nuland, is an oligarch and has been in politics for some time.
Does that include bombing Donetsk Airport as they are doing at this moment?
You live in a world of your own.
I'm not surprise the OSCE is accepting this election in Ukraine when considering their past work. IMO, the election is unacceptable due to the citizens of two large regions not having adequate/safe places to vote. Let's say the majority of citizens of two states in USA are having issues voting. Not acceptable.
The unrest in a few regions in Ukraine isn't caused by the government but by a few armed thugs. Even if everybody in east Ukraine was able to vote, it wouldn't change the outcome. Those are reasons most nations will accept the new president of Ukraine. That is why I can accept the new president of Ukraine. Other than that, I don't agree with OSCE stating the election meets international standards.
Let me guess, UKIP voter?
Like most of the voters here? Yes. Absolutely. You will have noticed that Farage just won a landslide election.
Let me guess, Labour voter?
'Most' voters voted for UKIP? since when does 27% or 28% mean most? Am not a native English speaker, and maybe someone will enlighten me but would have thought 'Most' meant more voted for them than did not vote for them, and 28% would mean 72% voted for someone other than UKIP, I would say those 73% is closer to what 'most' would mean than the 27% that voted for UKIP.
Labour? that guess about as bad as your vote in the elections.
Your side bio doesn't even give a country, so you are Mr/Mrs Unidentified, thus I can't really take you seriously. Nor can I correlate British politics to the subject matter. So I wont encourage you to go off topic any further by responding to your silliness again. If you want something to do, go fill in your side bio.
Anyway, Jay will now have a slew of stolen text peppered with his own insults to power post..........
Why would Crimea be eligible to vote, its in Russia?
You live in a world of your own.
As I write it has been an overwhelming vote for a Ukraine free of outside influences,free of corruption,free of the past-- and in particular--free of Russia.
Umm, except that the guy "voted" for was chosen by Nuland, is an oligarch and has been in politics for some time.
There is a lot to do for the new President-- the work of the coalition has been excellent and needs to be carried on-- it is clearly the desire of the people.
Does that include bombing Donetsk Airport as they are doing at this moment?
(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/clmontes/jean-luc-fk-russia_zpsdcb5575d.png)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_4c0JJFXd0c#t=66
(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/clmontes/jean-luc-fk-russia_zpsdcb5575d.png)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_4c0JJFXd0c#t=66
bombing ?? show us the evidence of the bombing please manny ??
more like anti missile flares & the destruction of machine gun posts
show us your evidence of the ''bombing'' please ??
SX
In fairness the bbc is/was reporting rockets launched at the airport building. I would also call that bombing, but then, I guess I would also call the taking of the airport a terrorist action....
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-27578440
this link below gives a good account of events at the airport
no mention of bombing
http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine/ukrainians-vote-in-momentous-may-25-election-to-pick-nations-fifth-president-live-updates-349211.html
given the pro russians are seperatist terrorists who are breaking the law , how should the gov react ?
i think we know how mr putin would react if it was in russia ;)
Why would Crimea be eligible to vote, its in Russia?
Umm, except that the guy "voted" for was chosen by Nuland, is an oligarch and has been in politics for some time.
Does that include bombing Donetsk Airport as they are doing at this moment?
You live in a world of your own.
Anyway, Jay will now have a slew of stolen text peppered with his own insults to power post..........
How come, in the country crawling with 'Banderists' and 'Neo Nazis', Vadim Rabinovich (a Ukrainian Jewish candidate for Ukraine's presidential election) outpolls the Right Sector and Svoboda candidates in taking 2.25 percent of the vote, while the latter two candidates receive only 1,86 percent, collectively?
How come, in the country crawling with 'Banderists' and 'Neo Nazis', Vadim Rabinovich (a Ukrainian Jewish candidate for Ukraine's presidential election) outpolls the Right Sector and Svoboda candidates in taking 2.25 percent of the vote, while the latter two candidates receive only 1,86 percent, collectively?
So we are on the side of George Soros? Great.
Absolutely the crappiest place to live a Westerner could ever imagine, on a par with slums in any 3rd world country, all because of the attitudes and behavior of the people there.You are so wrong. I lived in Libya for three years. That was, most absolutely, the worst place, in the world, for westerners. I am engaged to a Ukrainian; have spent many months with her in east, south and west Ukraine, and will happily take up residence with her in Lviv. I have had it with the 'American way of living'...greedy, corrupt politicians and political power blocks, i.e., government unions, Wall Street lobbyists, demographically aberrant identity groups (homosexuals, transgenders, pedophiles, animal fetishists) are taking over the country due to the lack of involvement in governance by the mainstream populace. Before they know it, the mainstream will be in legal and political shackles placed on it by the rabid fringe elements of our society.
Mr Natural,
oh I ponder the possibilities when a wit such as your yours is turned loose to reflect upon all the events of the natural world, perhaps you will deduce that the wind is caused by the trees moving back and forth in unison, who knows what festering puzzle of nature you will once and decisively answer for a world not as blessed with an intellect as savagely perceptive as your own. please don’t tell me you know Sevastopol, based on your 3 short visits, YOU DON’T!
I didn't say I know Sevastopol. I've never been to the Place, duh! I said I've been to CRIMEA 3 times. Places like Simferopol, Koktebel, Kerch. Bus rides, trips to the city centre and to the Beach.... never any problems With anybody......sorry....
please don’t tell me you know Sevastopol, based on your 3 short visits, YOU DON’T!
I am engaged to a Ukrainian; have spent many months with her in east, south and west Ukraine, and will happily take up residence with her in Lviv. I have had it with the 'American way of living'...greedy, corrupt politicians and political power blocks, i.e., government unions, Wall Street lobbyists, demographically aberrant identity groups (homosexuals, transgenders, pedophiles, animal fetishists) are taking over the country due to the lack of involvement in governance by the mainstream populace. Before they know it, the mainstream will be in legal and political shackles placed on it by the rabid fringe elements of our society.
An interesting documentary by PBS on the conflict in Ukraine. Some information that I had not read rearlier about 'Right Sector' and the history of this group and their objetives.
http://video.pbs.org/video/2365254983/
So To Jay H
You really have got to stop following mainstream media,for one thing they are bought and paid for by Government. I respect the fact that your pro Ukraine iam too. I also know that lots of Ukraine people work in Russia as my wife has relatives there. If it werent for Russian jobs lots of Ukraine's would have no money and not be able to support there families. Have you ever been to Russia? cause let me tell you its not much different then Ukraine people with jobs get up everyday and work and try to support there families . Now again Its not Putin that started this the West started all this with Ukraine . GO HERE
http://www.infowars.com/the-truth-about-the-ukraine-crisis/ and stop listening to mainstream media and listen to the true news INFOWARS >COM DRUDGE REPORT BENN SWAN Stop bashing Russia and get your facts straight! Cause unless you have lived in Russia as I have you dont know what you are talking about.
Why I hate, HATE Putin and all Russians (and others) who support him:
http://ukraineatwar.blogspot.nl/2014/06/staged-attack-with-rpg-from-tree-in.html (http://ukraineatwar.blogspot.nl/2014/06/staged-attack-with-rpg-from-tree-in.html)
...a most pleasant park where I have spent many peaceful and romantic times with my fiancee, as little children played among the trees where the explosions occur.
Rocky, your cracking me up. The video you link is a propaganda piece that lists no references or proofs to the foolish conclusions he offers.
Being the husband of a Russian women, it seems to be a theme here that you would take the Russian side. So you live in Russia?
Let me give you a little perspective from someone that has spent time in Ukraine and has a Ukrainian wife that still lives in Ukraine.
1. I have been going to Ukraine since before Maiden and met, stayed with, and discussed politics with many people. This also includes Crimea, particularly in Sevastopol.
2. Prior to Maiden and the invasion by Russia, the people of Ukraine got along with each other regardless if they are Ukrainian speakers or Russian speakers. In fact many of the citizens speak both languages or a hybrid of both. There was no discord that I every witnessed.
3. Your perception that Maiden was financed and actively supported by the USA is just plain B.S. ! There is no way to know for certain if any of the US foreign aid money was channeled to the protesters, but it is unlikely since your boy Yanukovich seemed to have stolen most of the money anyway.
4. My wife and I made several visits to Maiden and observed the protesters. She lives within earshot of the grenades and gunfire from the center. In addition, she has been to Maiden during the conflict several times because it was necessary to visit the courts and government offices during this time. The supporters of maiden were Ukrainian citizens from all over Ukraine. I doubt I saw more than a dozen native English speaking people the times we went there.
5. Whether you like it or not, Maiden was a grass roots Ukrainian adventure. I can enlighten you a little as to why I make this conclusion. The previous 2-3 years prior to Maiden, nearly everyone I talked to in Ukraine had the same attitude about politics and the government.... "They are all a bunch of crooks. It does not matter which one we elect!" After the early success of Maiden where tens of thousands attended, the public support grew and grew. Why you might ask?..... because there is security in numbers, and the citizens began to think there may be hope in replacing Yanuckovich with a new, less corrupt government. The EU vs. Russia decision may have been the spark that got it started, but once it got going it was more a case of throwing out the crooks and electing a new government.
6. Once the public got to see the lavish residence of Yanuckovich and learn of the amount of money he stole from the people, there was no turning back. It was time to oust him and get a new president. I wonder how Putin would fare under the same circumstances? :D
If you consider yourself a rational thinker, please answer the following:
On what legal basis can you justify Russia invading a sovereign nation (Crimea) and taking it as their property?
Why is it that nearly everything Putin says is a lie.... such as he has pulled his troops out a month or so ago when no troops had been pulled back?
His lies that no Russian troops (little green men) were in Crimea prior to the official invasion.
What legal basis does he have continuing to stick his nose in Ukraine's business now (in the East)?
I ask you to consider the big picture.... What major event caused Russia to get involved in an internal Ukrainian conflict? The only thing I recall is that Putin's puppet (Yanuckovich) was driven from office. There is no other major event that I can remember that caused the Russian's to invade Ukraine (Crimea) and send terrorists into Eastern Ukraine. If this was not the reason, what is your explanation?
I'll wait for your reply.....
Ok here it is! My reply,
So now the Ukraine has another puppet a USA backed puppet in Petr Poroshenko. Another Billionaire leader. Who is clearly Western backed his job to turn Ukraine over to the EU and to lay out the welcome mat for NATO forces to encircle Russia with missiles and the Military. Claiming to be peace keepers.
All backed by the USA and the West http://www.infowars.com/washingtons-iron-curtain-in-ukraine/
They are trying to destabilize Ukraine http://voiceofrussia.com/news/2014_06_09/Destabilization-of-Ukraine-used-as-pretext-to-move-NATO-closer-to-Russian-borders-1104/ in order for USA and the West in other words NATO parked on the Russian border. Now Putin didn't invade Crimea. Crimea wanted to join the Russian Federation and why not? The country is made up of 70 %-80% Russian speaking people.
Read this article it tells all http://voiceofrussia.com/news/2014_06_05/Russia-never-annexed-Crimea-no-plans-to-intervene-Ukraine-its-Western-delusion-Putin-5970/
Ok here it is! My reply,
So now the Ukraine has another puppet a USA backed puppet in Petr Poroshenko. Another Billionaire leader. Who is clearly Western backed his job to turn Ukraine over to the EU and to lay out the welcome mat for NATO forces to encircle Russia with missiles and the Military. Claiming to be peace keepers.
All backed by the USA and the West http://www.infowars.com/washingtons-iron-curtain-in-ukraine/
They are trying to destabilize Ukraine http://voiceofrussia.com/news/2014_06_09/Destabilization-of-Ukraine-used-as-pretext-to-move-NATO-closer-to-Russian-borders-1104/ in order for USA and the West in other words NATO parked on the Russian border.
Now Putin didn't invade Crimea. Crimea wanted to join the Russian Federation and why not? The country is made up of 70 %-80% Russian speaking people.
Read this article it tells all http://voiceofrussia.com/news/2014_06_05/Russia-never-annexed-Crimea-no-plans-to-intervene-Ukraine-its-Western-delusion-Putin-5970/
Anotherkiwi,
Were patiently waiting for Rockford75 to come on here and tell us that since Alaska once belonged to Russia, that it was sold too cheaply to the USA, and Russia is justified in invading and annexing it.
After occupation I am sure Putin could rig another phoney referendum. Even use the same excuse that he is 'protecting' Russian speakers (not Russian citizens) as was the case in Crimea. ;D
So now the Ukraine has another puppet a USA backed puppet in Petr Poroshenko. Another Billionaire leader. Who is clearly Western backed his job to turn Ukraine over to the EU and to lay out the welcome mat for NATO forces to encircle Russia with missiles and the Military. Claiming to be peace keepers.
In this environment, Russia’s current policy in Ukraine is not just about geopolitical calculations regarding Ukraine’s economic ties with the EU versus the Eurasian Union, or even potential Ukrainian NATO membership. Instead, a main goal may be to strengthen President Vladimir Putin’s regime domestically by increasing patriotic attitudes among the Russian population.
Patriotism would thus be the means by which the Russian government inoculates the population against anti-regime or pro-Western attitudes. This goal would explain the obsessive focus on building an anti-Ukrainian and anti-U.S. domestic media narrative from an early stage in the Ukraine conflict.
One thing that may strike observers is that the supposed U.S. strategy laid out by Russian officials very closely parallels Russia’s actions in Ukraine in recent weeks. While Russian officials certainly did not organize the Maidan protests, NATO has accused Russia of backing pro-Russian separatists in eastern Ukraine.
Most Americans don't know where Russia is, but you wouldn't know that by watching RT.
Anyone watch the Putin-Obama interaction on D-day? The article I read said Obama won the body language competition but I figured I would ask unbiased observers.
If one was to invest in Ukraine, not saying I am, maybe now is the time.
Here's an excerpt from an observer of Russian Military affairs.QuoteRussia’s current policy in Ukraine is not just about geopolitical calculations regarding Ukraine’s economic ties with the EU versus the Eurasian Union, or even potential Ukrainian NATO membership. Instead, a main goal may be to strengthen President Vladimir Putin’s regime domestically by increasing patriotic attitudes among the Russian population.
BINGO!!!
Putin may be more benevolent than dictators such as Stalin, yet he is as corrupt as they come. He has enriched his power base as well as his friends and himself. As with any case of rampant corruption, the general Russian population has suffered.
If Putin were to lose his power base, he would spend many years in jail in the manner of what he did to Mikhail Khodorkovsky. Putin must stay in power, and thereby he is promoting Russian patriotism to build domestic support. His power base and friends go along as Putin is the golden goose giving out golden eggs.
I have a different take on this, dear Gator. I don't see Putin as a dictator, rather more as a strong personality that, yes, serve his own interests, but also is strongly patriotic and want to right the wrongs done by Jeltsin who delivered Russia almost free of charge to the oligarchs and western political and Financial interests.
Russians suffer? They have always suffered but my understanding is that they are now better of materially than ever before. Sure there are still poor People and there's inequality, but one cannot expect a country to Reach the excellence of the country of the indispensables like the US where everybody's a millionaire, in just a decade or so, can we?
Hitler made his country grow by a policy that made the government spend far more than it earned in order to create jobs and raise welfare. As a result he needed to build one of the best (maybe the best) military and weapons of the time, and use them in order to obtain more resources to keep the debts within limits and economy from collapse.
Damn!!!
Almost verbatim from last night on History channel during a presentation of "The Third Reich - The Fall"
Just click on the link.
Yeah, America is evil. Blame America first, always and if you can't blame America, blame God.Why do you think America is evil?
Continue the report about current Ukrainian situations. So, for now the situation is better than it was few month ago. But known that Russia want to escalate this. I know about the new arrivals of terrorists from Chechnya. Ukrainian military is doing all the best to resolve all of the captured districts. Also you can keep an eye about details here: http://en.news-channels.net (http://en.news-channels.net) . They explain situation from the three sides and provides three type of channels. Personally I pray and hope it will end soon.
In practical terms, the U.S. government should encourage the Ukrainian government to pursue policies of reconciliation in the Donbas. While the conflict has been greatly exacerbated by Russian actions, it has an internal component that cannot be solved by military action alone. In an ideal world, Russia and the United States would work together to encourage this reconciliation, though I doubt that the current Russian government is genuinely interested in peace in eastern Ukraine. Instead, it would prefer to keep eastern Ukraine unstable as an object lesson to its own population of the dangers of popular protest leading to the overthrow of even a relatively unpopular government.
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Neither a good day, or news, for Ukraine today, as OSCE reports (http://www.osce.org/ukraine-smm/122908)...
tsk, tsk, tsk :(
Yes it appears it was a deadly day for the Ukrainian's today. I don't think they are going to win this militarily, so they better get to the table and try to end the bloodshed, because that is THE ONLY WAY the fighting and deaths have a real hope of ending!
http://online.wsj.com/articles/ukraine-suffers-heavy-losses-in-counterattack-by-pro-russia-rebels-1408626401?ru=yahoo?mod=yahoo_itp (http://online.wsj.com/articles/ukraine-suffers-heavy-losses-in-counterattack-by-pro-russia-rebels-1408626401?ru=yahoo?mod=yahoo_itp)
quote from article:
"Losses have mounted recently, adding more pressure on Kiev to seek a compromise at peace talks next week in the Belarusian capital of Minsk, where Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko and Russian leader Vladimir Putin are scheduled to meet face-to-face for the first time in two months."
According to the article the two leaders will be meeting shortly...we shall see if they hammer out a deal this time that allows both sides to walk away with something positive.
Fathertime!
maybe the heavy loses are attributed to some (http://online.wsj.com/articles/russia-accuses-kiev-of-deliberately-halting-humanitarian-aid-convoy-1408697601?mod=WSJ_hp_LEFTTopStories) foreign sources.As I read, three battalions were supposed to move in toward Donetsk. Two of them chickened out and stayed back, resulting in major losses to the third. Ukraine news sites seem to avoid reporting some of the bad news.
Yes it appears it was a deadly day for the Ukrainian's today. I don't think they are going to win this militarily, so they better get to the table and try to end the bloodshed, because that is THE ONLY WAY the fighting and deaths have a real hope of ending!
http://online.wsj.com/articles/ukraine-suffers-heavy-losses-in-counterattack-by-pro-russia-rebels-1408626401?ru=yahoo?mod=yahoo_itp (http://online.wsj.com/articles/ukraine-suffers-heavy-losses-in-counterattack-by-pro-russia-rebels-1408626401?ru=yahoo?mod=yahoo_itp)
quote from article:
"Losses have mounted recently, adding more pressure on Kiev to seek a compromise at peace talks next week in the Belarusian capital of Minsk, where Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko and Russian leader Vladimir Putin are scheduled to meet face-to-face for the first time in two months."
According to the article the two leaders will be meeting shortly...we shall see if they hammer out a deal this time that allows both sides to walk away with something positive.
Fathertime!
The words ALMOST and UNLESS loom very large in your statements. I really don't see this ending unless Russia wants it to end. When the two leaders meet this week maybe they can find a solution this time that both countries will decide to live with.
Fathertime!
The Ukrainian army has captured almost all of the territory the Muscovite supported rebels held. So, unless Moscow starts rearming the terrorists, Ukraine will, in fact, restore its territory.
The issue will be reconciliation and rebuilding these areas after the fact,
On a positive note, Ukraine's trade balance is in surplus, which was unexpected after Russia banned most Ukrainian products.
Not the future of Ukraine, but of the terrorist controlled regions -
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/10/05/world/europe/rebels-in-eastern-ukraine-dream-of-reviving-soviet-heyday.html?_r=0
I am not at all surprised by the nostalgia for the past, or the neanderthal thinking (and I use the term "thinking" in its broadest sense) of the terrorists or their supporters.
The funny thing is that they seem to be doing what they accuse others of.
Replacing anyone who does not follow the ideology of the government does seem a bit Stalinistic.
Replacing anyone who does not follow the ideology of the government does seem a bit Stalinistic.
The funny thing is that they seem to be doing what they accuse others of.
Replacing anyone who does not follow the ideology of the government does seem a bit Stalinistic.
Communism still has devotees in the West Jay.
No--that is not what it is about.To explain it for you in simple terms--it is about loyalty to their country and employer -- and not a foreign invader rejected by the huge majority.The sheer concept of someone being born in a country and having obtained a government job in the past now seen as a foreign invader shows the exact opposite.
In theory--it is a reasonable expectation.
The enemy of freedom has always been moral decadence since in the beginning!The real enemy of freedom are those who proclaim there is a need to limit it in order to have it.
The real enemy of freedom are those who proclaim there is a need to limit it in order to have it.
The sheer concept of someone being born in a country and having obtained a government job in the past now seen as a foreign invader shows the exact opposite.
I thought a man like you renounced such subscriptions to jingoism. Funny how politics makes a Janus out of some.I am merely pointing out that some decisions seem to be totalitarian in nature.
But Kyiv is not firing individuals based on the ethnic origin of their surnames.They are firing them on their ethnic orientation.
Well, my apolitical relatives in Kyiv, who all have Russian surnames, have zero fear in expressing their opinions, and have not since the collapse. Nor do my relatives in Western Ukraine.If the law is limited to what you state here I can only agree on it. If it is used to ban those who have remained in service but might still vote for 'blue' it is a very different matter. I hope we agree on that.
The lustration law is not targeting a specific ethnicity. In addition to banning from office anyone who served in Yanukovych's regime who has left the country, it will also ban anyone who cannot prove from whence they acquired large amounts of cash. This is not an ethnic test.
Judges and law enforcement officials living lavish lifestyles will be subject to investigation. Given that the most ruthless scandals of robbery and human trafficking in Ukraine have almost all involved police officers (usually higher ranks), I believe this is something that should have been done a decade ago.
They are firing them on their ethnic orientation.
Which goes even beyond just the name being suspicious.
Dutch reporters describe a situation in Ukraine that is an awful lot like we were told happened in Soviet times, where people are afraid to express any opinion on the street due to fear of repercussions. And these reporters are not in the 'unsafe' Donbass area.
I am merely pointing out that some decisions seem to be totalitarian in nature.
I am sure that if Putin would decide to fire any government official with a name ending in -ko you would be screaming about it, yet if Kiev suggests it then it is fine.
I found this rather dismal assessment of what the future of Ukraine might be if the direction doesn't change.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/barry-d-wood/ukraines-uncertain-future_b_6044834.html?ncid=txtlnkusaolp00000592 (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/barry-d-wood/ukraines-uncertain-future_b_6044834.html?ncid=txtlnkusaolp00000592)
Fathertime!
LMFAO
I could imagine you responding to the revolutionaries back in the eighteenth century America that they should forget their inane revolt and accept the win-win reality King George was offering, WHICH WAS NONE!
Do you have a yellow streak running down your spine, or was that inherited?
I read the whole article and the author did not augur doom and gloom. What she said is things are going to be difficult. I can see you don't like to work hard. Or are you on the Kremlin's payroll?
JayH, as a member of the Poroshenko government, can you confirm or deny US personnel involved in Ukraine's resupply or training outside declared NATO exercises?
JayH, as a member of the Poroshenko government, can you confirm or deny US personnel involved in Ukraine's resupply or training outside declared NATO exercises?
It is a little humorous that any statement or link that goes contrary to the silly narrative you attempt to push is 'Russian propaganda'. There remains 2 sides to the story, whether you like it or not! Those that refuse to acknowledge that will always be a part of the problem.
Fathertime!
#1 Where do you get the idea that JayH is a member of the UA Government?
He's an Ozzie not a Ukie..
No idea LT !! Maybe they are on vacation using the same GPS as the Russians in the east on "vacation" !!
#1 Where do you get the idea that JayH is a member of the UA Government?
He's an Ozzie not a Ukie..
http://www.neurope.eu/article/eu-pay-ukraine-gas-debts-austrian-minister (http://www.neurope.eu/article/eu-pay-ukraine-gas-debts-austrian-minister)
In order to resolve the gas supply dispute between Russia and Ukraine, the EU will need to pay for Ukraine's outstanding gas invoices, an Austrian minister said Tuesday.
Comrade, me thinks you should be ingesting the same medicine, which by the way, is very sound. If only you would do as you say.
Anyway, I'm not being foolish or bravely with other's people lives. There is a time when people has to stand up against the invader of YOUR country and fight for what is yours. I told the same to my gong-ho son when he went overseas; most of these people are fighting in their home land.
Now, I can see you running towards the invader with roses in your arms and lips puckered.
I came across this short article on Aljazeera. It states that the people in Slovyansk (a city of over 100,000) boycotted the election. What makes this interesting is this city is being held by UKRAINE, not the separatists. The article was rather incomplete so perhaps somebody has better or more complete information. It does beg the question of how many other people/cities boycotted the election? Does it matter?
http://www.aljazeera.com/video/europe/2014/10/ukraine-fails-win-over-slovyansk-residents-20141026142534738339.html (http://www.aljazeera.com/video/europe/2014/10/ukraine-fails-win-over-slovyansk-residents-20141026142534738339.html)
Fathertime!
The "boycott" is because of terrorist disruption and violence/threats of violence.
http://www.euronews.com/2014/05/23/election-boycott-in-eastern-ukraine/
No, it doesn't matter! Your side lost the election. Now live with it!!!!!I'm not Ukrainian, I don't have a 'side' in the election. One thing it seems to show is there remains a very real divide which continues to make running the country very very difficult.
The "boycott" is because of terrorist disruption and violence/threats of violence.
http://www.euronews.com/2014/05/23/election-boycott-in-eastern-ukraine/ (http://www.euronews.com/2014/05/23/election-boycott-in-eastern-ukraine/)
#1 Where do you get the idea that JayH is a member of the UA Government?
He's an Ozzie not a Ukie..
Interesting, according to the link you provided, it appears there has been quite a bit of disruption, and Ukrainian soldier deaths in recent days outside of separatist controlled areas.
Fathertime!
You have provided 2 options:
1. Go head to head against a vastly superior enemy.
2. Pucker up and kiss their feet.
There are other options that you are bypassing.
If your son is overseas as a civilian I have no idea what this has to do with the conversation. If he is in the military, it is a crappy position to be in, fighting on somebodies else's land 1000's of miles from home, with no real reason for an American to be there. All in all, you are acting brave with other people's lives...if the Ukrainians WANT to fight Russia, they will do so, we don't have to incentivize them mainly for our own selfish purposes.
Fathertime!
Yes it is. From this side of the 'pond' all we can do is pray for our loved ones there and cross our fingers that the Huilonistas decide that they've caused enough death on Ukrainians and return to Russia.
But soon I'll be on the ground there for a few months to check it out my self and lend a hand if possible. Now all I can do is donate towards the efforts of the UA Army.
Your prayers will go a lot further than you $$$ will.
War is the most expensive activity to be involved in. If the West had any real leaders it would help subsidize those brave men fighting and dying over there.
Russia has more foreigners fighting on its side than Ukraine, do you condemn them with equal breathe?
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2774542/Meet-Hunter-The-American-man-fighting-pro-Russian-rebels-Eastern-Ukraine-speaks-English-limited-understanding-political-conflict.html
No I don't think I would condemn them with equal breathe.
I have no allegiance to Ukraine/Russia....
What foreign fighters are you referring to?
Fathertime!
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2774542/Meet-Hunter-The-American-man-fighting-pro-Russian-rebels-Eastern-Ukraine-speaks-English-limited-understanding-political-conflict.html (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2774542/Meet-Hunter-The-American-man-fighting-pro-Russian-rebels-Eastern-Ukraine-speaks-English-limited-understanding-political-conflict.html)
This guy
Mrs B -you keep getting the actual factual reality getting in the way of propaganda nonsense.
Funny thing is the proponents of that nonsense never seem to accept the reality!!
As an aside--In the election it looks like over 75% have voted for new directions -and that is not saying others are opposed to them.
The USA can't always control what individual citizens choose to do. There is probably US citizens fighting on both sides of the Ukrainian conflict. So long as we are not paying them to be there, that is something that happens. We *the US* probably have citizens fighting on every side in Syria too. We can't stop individuals from fighting for the cause they believe in.
Fathertime!
More confused hot air.
You do know this is trolling?
Even more amazing is you really do not connect the dots ;D
PWD syndrome? :arguing:
PWD syndrome? :arguing:
Fathertime, :applaud:
You have provided 2 options:
1. Go head to head against a vastly superior enemy.
2. Pucker up and kiss their feet.
There are other options that you are bypassing.
If your son is overseas as a civilian I have no idea what this has to do with the conversation. If he is in the military, it is a crappy position to be in, fighting on somebodies else's land 1000's of miles from home, with no real reason for an American to be there. All in all, you are acting brave with other people's lives...if the Ukrainians WANT to fight Russia, they will do so, we don't have to incentivize them mainly for our own selfish purposes.
Fathertime!
The "boycott" is because of terrorist disruption and violence/threats of violence.
http://www.euronews.com/2014/05/23/election-boycott-in-eastern-ukraine/ (http://www.euronews.com/2014/05/23/election-boycott-in-eastern-ukraine/)
I am in Bila Tserkva
Forbes article about what is expected from the USA new Congress for Ukriane.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/paulroderickgregory/2014/11/06/what-can-a-republican-senate-majority-do-for-ukraine/
If the link you posted in the other thread is right Russia is within a year or so of some serious problems I'd say.
A dying animal is dangerous.
No currently it's showing 15.07 to 1 USD. Not good by any means for sure.
But the ruble is in as bad or slightly worse shape AND no one will loan them money due to the sanctions.
and for the foreseeable future Russia's best is behind it!! :)
Ruble 45/1
Hyrvnia 15/1
Hmmmm
Simple figures for her..
Ukraine is in deep trouble, the government has about 3 billion in foreign exchange and about another billion in gold. The reason the Hyrvnia is so low, is the NBU can no longer afford to spend it’s precious foreign exchange to sell and buy Hyrvnia to prop up the price. It appears that a good deal of the previous money that Ukraine borrowed from the IMF and elsewhere ended up in the off-shore accounts of Yanukovych’s “family” and was then hastily transferred to Russia.
However, the people of Ukraine are on the hook to pay it back, I’m not sure how they’ll do it. Meanwhile Lugansk and Donetsk oblasts are in ruins, and as a result Ukraine now has to import coal, which was revealed in yet another oligarch scam recently. Look at a map, you’ll see that the war is currently being pursued in Lugansk and Donetsk, Putin needs to secure these two oblasts and then extend south west into Zaporoshie oblast and he will then have a land bridge from Russia to Crimea. Will he stop there? Or will he keep going West and secure Odessa as well, and cut Ukraine off completely from the Black Sea, will he stop there or will he keep going even further West to connect everything together in Transistria? Meanwhile the volunteers doing the fighting for Ukraine in Eastern Ukraine (who must supply their own equipment and transport) have become deeply distrustful of the government in Kiev and military commanders, and of all oligarchs, the country is fracturing everywhere, not just in Eastern Ukraine, winter is fast approaching and already people are starving in Eastern Ukraine, how far will it go? In Kiev, I have seen “elitny” houses that two years ago cost $800,000 to $1,000,000 now have a “suggested” price of $250,000, that tells you something... Whatever eventually happens, and all “falling objects” eventually stop when they hit the ground, the Ukraine a year from now, will likely be very different from the Ukraine it is today. History is repeating itself in Ukraine, who wants to die or make sacrifices for Ukraine?
Given that Ukraine has been through turmoil-- in every way and is currently under attack -- the currency has probably fared better than expected.No one is in denial about the crisis Ukraine faces.
On the other hand-- a supposedly strong Russian economy brimming with "assets" is on the brink of collapse.
Any attempt to compare is grossly unfair to Ukraine in the current situation.
Look at it this way-- the best is ahead of Ukraine-- and for the foreseeable future Russia's best is behind it!! :)
Given that Ukraine has been through turmoil-- in every way and is currently under attack -- the currency has probably fared better than expected.No one is in denial about the crisis Ukraine faces.
On the other hand-- a supposedly strong Russian economy brimming with "assets" is on the brink of collapse.
Gator, as you note, without external aid, Ukraine will likely face an economic collapse sometime within the next few months. In the past, such aid has primarily appeared in the form of loans, it is becoming increasingly unlikely that Ukraine will be able to support repayment of even past loans after March or so (and this is not even considering new loans). Based on this uncomfortable reality, I'm not sure who's going to stick their neck out for Ukraine. Also keep in mind, that some of the amount previously borrowed ended up in off-shore accounts off the Yanukovych "family" (now likely transferred to Russian banks), and that Ukraine never lived up to its promises which were conditions for receiving previous IMF loans, all these factors make it unlikely that Ukraine will receive any new significant loans.
Putin needs three oblasts to make a land bridge to Crimea, Lugansk, Donetsk, and Zaporozhie, two of the three are being contested militarily right now, with every indication that Putin is pouring more military support to succeed in his endeavor to capture these three oblasts. If he succeeds he will have the land bridge from Russia to Ukraine, control of the Dnipro Canal water supply, and control of the six reactors in Zaporozhia that supplies the bulk of Crimea's electricity. If this WEREN'T true, the Kerch Strait bridge, would be something more than a piece of paper that it is right now, it's just a proposal, and not a priority, as it should be given Crimea's serious transportation issue, so Putins's gamble is that he can take these three oblasts more quickly than he build a bridge.
As I've noted previously, if he succeeds in taking these three oblasts away from Ukraine as he did with Crimea, will he stop there, or will he keep going and take all of southern Ukraine and link up to Transnistria? Putin's strategy is likely a mixture of military and economic warfare, if Ukraine collapses economically, it's likey that Ukraine will fragment into different regions, Putin can then pick the ones he wants and no one can stop him.
Who wants to die for Ukraine, any takers?
Boethius,
I don’t believe we disagree all that much, you say the glass is half full, I say it’s half empty, but either statement reflects how much liquid is present.
I am well acquainted with the reality in Ukraine both past and present, I am alive today, only because of the fact that two generations ago my ancestors left Ukraine and came to the USA.
I lived in Ukraine three years and traveled throughout Ukraine as much as I could, besides my home in “Krim” I visited Kiev quite a bit and have been to Lvov, Odessa, Ternopil, Chernigov and more.
Gator,
Your analogy of comparing the “Anglo” colonization of Texas, is not quite “correct’ in my view. .....Hey, I’m in Texas what can I say!
Would Russia ever buy territory?
Boethius,
"krimster, your allegation of Western Ukrainians being Nazis is inaccurate."
I don't believe that it is, the number of Ukrainians who worked as Kiwis was pretty well documented by the Germans
JayH,
I have heard many “fairy tales” about Ukraine, the one you propose that Ukraine has in some fundamental way “changed” in the last 5 years would be certainly be one of them, Yanukovych was in power during 4 out of the last 5 years you mention, please tell me what changed during his administration, except for the improved efficiency in plundering of state resources. You think a riot on Maidan revolutionized Ukraine? Really, then you must think the Orange Revolution did the same as well. Nothing has changed in Ukraine, get over it. Oligarchs are sill oligarchs, politicians are still stealing. My visiting or not visiting has nothing at all to do with it, furthermore, I didn’t “visit” Ukraine I lived there, huge difference between visiting a country and living there with your family, and experiencing corruption directly, paying the bribes yourself!
“because I think your views are coloured by your own unsatisfactory experiences--...
“I have read many of your posts over a period of time-- and I do not doubt the honesty of your posts--but you have written in a most negative way on many issues.”
I just reported my experiences as objectively as possible without embellishment, if you “do not doubt the honesty of my posts"- but yet find that my posts were “negative” than this is your own subjective interpretation
The points I made about many Ukrainians being collaborators with the Nazis are historical facts, easily verifiable (spend 10 minutes on Google) and have nothing at all to do with the “Kremlin”.
I do understand the issues, even to the point of saying that if I were in similar circumstances and had to feed my family during the Nazi occupation that I might be inclined to do the same, but-these-are-facts, you may not like them, they may conflict with your own narrative of a heroic Ukraine opposing Nazi-ism, but history doesn’t show that this was a universal view shared by all Ukrainians
You want to know my motivation? At first my motivation was to tell outsiders what life was like in Ukraine, how cruelly people were treated there, how degraded their lives were. I did this not in anticipation that I would somehow trigger a positive change, but as a cathartic release of the frustration I felt, I still feel this way, and I don’t believe in any fairy tale that Ukraine has changed and that salvation is just around the corner, in fact just the opposite.
jayh, I answered, it doesn't matter, it just doesn't matter when I was there last, it's equivalent to asking what color socks I was wearing when I was there last, and that if I had red socks, I would have seen things differently, you're mistaken in your premise that things have changed, I could get in a time machine and go 50 years in the future and it will still be the "same ole, same ole" only hotter, much hotter...
jayh, I answered, it doesn't matter, it just doesn't matter when I was there last, it's equivalent to asking what color socks I was wearing when I was there last, and that if I had red socks, I would have seen things differently, you're mistaken in your premise that things have changed, I could get in a time machine and go 50 years in the future and it will still be the "same ole, same ole" only hotter, much hotter...
Boethius,
I don’t believe we disagree all that much, you say the glass is half full, I say it’s half empty, but either statement reflects how much liquid is present.
I am well acquainted with the reality in Ukraine both past and present, I am alive today, only because of the fact that two generations ago my ancestors left Ukraine and came to the USA.
I lived in Ukraine three years and traveled throughout Ukraine as much as I could, besides my home in “Krim” I visited Kiev quite a bit and have been to Lvov, Odessa, Ternopil, Chernigov and more.
Currently, the situation in Eastern Ukraine is rapidly turning desperate for those unfortunate enough to not be able to leave the conflict zone. In addition to the constant destruction, pensions haven’t been paid in many months, banks and industry closed, the availability of food and other goods has been greatly reduced, gas and coal for heating reduced or eliminated, and critical infrastructure destroyed.
If the central bank of Ukraine collapses, and it is very near that already, then some of the conditions in Eastern Ukraine will be the “new normal” for the rest of Ukraine as well. Who will the people then support, a government that is powerless to control its own economic destiny and presided over its own economic collapse, or one that is selling 200 billion USD/year in oil and gas?
Even the USA and Europe are being very “measured” in using sanctions against Russia and are very carefully choosing their language, using words like “incursion” and not “invasion”. When you see how much the West is exposed to Russian oil and gas, banking, etc, etc., they are stepping very lightly, they don’t want to disturb the “Bear”.
I am indeed impressed by the volunteers who are not only risking their lives fighting in Donbas but are doing so at their own expense, a necessity because Ukrainian state officials looted not only bank accounts but armory’s as well. However the volunteers numbers are relatively small, less than 1/10 of 1% of the population of Ukraine. Where are the rest of the people? With the thousands of Ukrainian military personnel stationed in Crimea, why didn’t at least one of them lift a gun and fight the Russian “incursion”?
What, I lost my credibility because of a reference to a “time machine”, my goodness, I’ll have to go back in time and remove the reference, ha,ha!! Oh no, I just met myself traveling backwards in time, just at the point when I was going to reveal the last time I was actually in Ukraine and accidentally created a singularity, so now I’ll have to go back even before that and...
The Soviet Union (and not Ukraine) gave a major “ass-whooping” to the Nazis after a disastrous 1st year. Kiev was conquered just 3 months after the start of the war (with a loss of over 800,000 Soviet troops), and the rest of Ukraine shortly after, between then and 1944 Ukraine was administered by the Nazis and assisted the Nazi war effort not the Soviet Union’s
I hate to disagree with you AC, I think it will be over next year, with Russia lengthening its borders yet again, if the West wants to show some resolve, stop buying Russian oil and gas, I don’t see that happening, do you?
On corruption, I will agree with krimster. Ukraine is still incredibly corrupt. Currently, there are government officials and oligarchs buying coal from Russia, then marking it up 30% to sell to Ukraine. The attitude is to steal as much as possible and leave. That is why it is important to trace Yanukovych's money, and to keep him, his clan, and their families, on sanctions lists. Money outside Russia should be confiscated if its origins cannot be proven. International lawsuits demanding a return of funds held in Russian banks must be commenced. And, if those fail, they stay on sanctions lists. This must be done down the line, to all who have stolen money. I don't think Ukraine has the political will to do that, because most of its politicians are corrupt.
K2---1/ like I said-- you keep harking back to the past . It has no relevance to Ukraine 2014--other than to illustrate that corruption is historically endemic. No one is arguing that it is not a problem--what you are disputing is that the attitude has changed -- and you cannot use history or even current examples to dispel the view that a new attitude is prevelant.
1 The roots of Ukraine’s systemic corruption are quite deep and are nearly three centuries old. They were institutionalized under Peter the Great’s creation of Russia’s Civil Service system which was created without a budget to pay its employees. Peter the Great told his civil servants that, “if they were smart enough to get the job, they were smart enough to figure out a way to make money from it”. I’m amazed that anyone thinks that in such a short period of time that because of a riot in Kiev last year that “things have really changed”, why if that’s all it takes I guess the riot in Ferguson, Mo. last night will rid the USA of racism, hoo-ray!!! Don’t take my word for it, after all I was’t there yesterday to see these wonderous changes for myself, ask an investor in Ukraine, like this fellow mentioned in the
2 Separate investigative reports from Pravda.com.ua and Theinsider.ua suggested that the “somebody” in question could be Sergei Kuzyara, a coal trader with close ties to Ukraine’s deposed President Viktor Yanukovych. Kuzyara’s plans to buy coal from Russia and the rebels in eastern Ukraine had found support in the Poroshenko camp. Such an arrangement could be lucrative. The rebels, despite the assistance they receive from Russia, need funds and would be willing to accept low prices for the coal they seized from the warehouses of state-owned mines.
Get it, Poroshenko is going to buy Ukrainian coal from the separatists who will use the money to continue the war!
So what’s changed in Ukraine?
3What, I lost my credibility because of a reference to a “time machine”, my goodness, I’ll have to go back in time and remove the reference, ha,ha!! Oh no, I just met myself traveling backwards in time, just at the point when I was going to reveal the last time I was actually in Ukraine and accidentally created a singularity, so now I’ll have to go back even before that and...
K2-- so it was when? 2005? To repeat--it does not disqualify you having an opinion--there has been far greater ignorance expressed on the forums by people that have never been there-- so your insight still has merit-on some topics!
What you are not recognising is a huge shift-- a change of direction and attitudes.You keep harking back to issues of previous times--those very issues are what maidan was about--ie changing Ukraine to create a future.You dismiss that glibly--and keep harking back-my point is that you simply don't know! Your opinions were formed and are now stuck in an earlier time.
The forum has seen a procession this year of others like you-- that simply dont get it !
Calmissile refers to anecdotal personal experiences of examples of change. I can also quote personal experiences and knowledge of a shift--plus lot's more. These are small examples-but real life current experiences.
Jay it takes much longer than just one year. He's right IMO the Oligarchs who rob from this country will never change.
Jay it takes much longer than just one year. He's right IMO the Oligarchs who rob from this country will never change.
It could take a generation..... or more.
My thoughts are the corruption can be better disguised and not so much out in the open. Businesses still will have to pay the bribes to get any licenses or paperwork needed. I still see the corruption both times this year...same as last year. I see no difference. Hopefully time will change thoughts and what is right, as someone said...its a mindset.
It could take a generation..... or more.
So my friends, Russia has “been there, done that”, if the situation in Ukraine returns to the same level that it did with the UPA resistance, what makes you think the outcome will be any different this time?
When there is the will at the top, it can be done relatively quickly. Georgia has received a lot of positive press as to its successful fight against corruption: [size=78%]http://www.economist.com/blogs/easternapproaches/2012/02/tbilisi%E2%80%99s-corruption-busters (http://www.economist.com/blogs/easternapproaches/2012/02/tbilisi%E2%80%99s-corruption-busters)[/size]
The real turning point against the UPA came however, when the Soviets switched tactics from a purely military campaign in 1947, and established an intelligence gathering network within the UPA and shifted the focus of their actions from mass terror to infiltration and espionage. After 1947 the UPA's activity began to subside, and the Soviet authorities tried to win over the local population by making significant economic investment in Western Ukraine.
So my friends, Russia has “been there, done that”, if the situation in Ukraine returns to the same level that it did with the UPA resistance, what makes you think the outcome will be any different this time?
K2-- I seem to have missed the answer AGAIN !! So-- you have not been there since when? 2007? :)
K-2 Another perhaps false perception you have is there is no change in the corruption in Ukraine. I cannot argue about corruption at the oligarch level, however I can personally tell you that there is a huge difference in the judiciary and civil servants that man the various government offices.
The Consolation of Boethius
“Seriously, you believe this?
The Soviets were fighting UPA into the 1950's.”
Yeah, I know, I just wanted within the space of a sentence or two to illustrate how Soviet strategy changed and how it was increasingly effective until the Soviets completely wiped out the UPA.
Boethius, everyone knows the Soviets were extremely brutal to their “subjects”, they certainly had a preference for the stick (or nosh or britva), in order for carrots to be a powerful coercive force, the people first need to be hungry... and also as a reference to both a past and likely future Russian strategy for Ukraine...
I’m just quoting the sources I mentioned, I can’t vouch for their accuracy any more than you can vouch for yours, despite the quantitative uncertainty, I think you CAN say with certainty that a large number of Ukrainians were collaborating with the Nazis. It’s not something I want to beat-up Ukrainians for, as I’ve said, I have a wife and children, if I were in their situation, I would do anything to keep my family fed as well, I’m not being judgmental, just reacting to the post that was saying, “hey, how ‘bout them Ukrainians, and the whipping they gave the Nazis”, there’s another side to this, and is relevant to todays events. How will Ukraine be able to present itself as the best choice for its people if its economy completely crashes in 2015, and if this does happen, how may people will “switch sides” as a result?
sorry for the confusion
“Seriously, you believe this?
The Soviets were fighting UPA into the 1950's.”
that was your own writing, you're repsonding to yourself, don't worry I do that a lot to, it alarms my family sometimes
"bettered the lives of the locals. That is not true. "
didn't say it was, at best it was propaganda and building state-run factories that were needed anyway, if I remember from my trip there, Lvov once was the TV set capital of the USSR
"They were not hungry in Western Ukraine"
my reference to hunger, was just a metaphor, sorry, yup everyone has their dachas/gardens for growing food, I sure did, which even included pigs, sheep and chickens
"Ukrainian collaboration was no higher in Ukraine than it was in other occupied countries. That is a fact."
So it WAS pretty high then?? Although I expect it was higher than in Western European countries, but no facts to back up that assumption, just never heard of Hiwis in Belgium for example...
Heh, and just because you "were" in Ukraine recently makes you the luminary in all Ukrainian?
Tell you what. Take off your rose-colored glasses and talk to the Ukrainians that are in the frontline. Ask those who felt like shooting the Kyiv commander because the bastard was simply looking after his own interests and "fcuk" Ukraine was better for his bottom line.
Basically, stop spewing nonsense.
hey jayH,
you‘re complaining about someone attacking you over the issue of
“...whether I had ever been in Ukraine at that time."
change that sentence slightly to
“When was the last time I was in Ukraine”
and you basically have the essence of your “attack” against me
why complain about something and then turn around and do basically the same thing to someone else???
It could take a generation..... or more.
My thoughts are the corruption can be better disguised and not so much out in the open. Businesses still will have to pay the bribes to get any licenses or paperwork needed. I still see the corruption both times this year...same as last year. I see no difference. Hopefully time will change thoughts and what is right, as someone said...its a mindset.
Doug, you are out in left field there with that statement. Please verify your statements with real judiciary. Don't mean to burst your bubble. Trust me, there's nothing that would make me so happy as to know what you just said is the reality.
I am eating a Roshen chocolate bar she just brought to me. Yummy. :)
US corporations all pay bribes to local, state, and federal politicians and bureaucrats, except they call it "lobbying" and "political contributions", and it's totally legal currently.
I just ate one also. Very good.
My take on the corruption is that it is changing some. The police are more learly of demanding bribes. Officials are concerned about bad press and consequences…..and lets not forget about what Right Sector can do. People know this and are becoming more vocal against corruption.
That said….my wife think Porshenko is just another crook and liar and needs to be shot before any real change can happen.
Before people get too up in arms about "corruption" in Ukraine understand that it's been that way for about 300 years because their salary simply is not enough (not even remotely enough) to live on. So yes many will get small bribes to get something done faster. Most here would do the same -- had they been born and raised there and had no other way to support their families.
The real problem is that some are probably much better than others at abusing their authority -- so yes Ukraine will eventually have a much better future provided they do move away from the bribe system. It simply won't happen overnight.
An interesting analysis of Obama and Ukraine. I don't agree with everything stated, but it is food for thought.
http://www.kyivpost.com/opinion/op-ed/will-ritter-obama-playing-the-long-game-against-putin-in-ukraine-374346.html
The author of this article is wrong on so many levels. Even Must will agree with me. Obama is a zero on Ukraine.
Praising Obama cheapens the lives lost on both sides.
Praising Obama cheapens the lives lost on both sides.
Step away from the keyboard and take your pills.
Stop having sex with men
Putin is a strong man, but not necessarily a strong leader. He continues to shoot himself in the foot at home and the near abroad. His pronouncements that Kazakhstan isn't really a country
His diatribe at Minsk was that the EU had not come with hat in hand and asked Russia's permission to invite Ukraine to an association agreement. Hello? Are you serious? Since when did Kyiv need to get your permission to seek economic alliances?!
I wonder if Mendy made it himself or just was deceived by US media.
I don't have a lot of contact with US media. Perhaps it the Russian media that you should worry about.
In the meantime, Mr. Putin might care to explain his comments to President Nazarbayev, who was fairly blunt in Kazakh state media when he responded to Putin's remarks by saying: "Kazakhstan will not join an organization (Eurasian Customs Union) that is a threat to our independence. Independence is our greatest fortune."
I did not expect Mendy turns into a plain propagandist. I will not translate here what Putin said about Kazakhstan but forgery of his speech is obvious. I wonder if Mendy made it himself or just was deceived by US media.
You mean Russian media distorted the Putin's words? :)
You again have misrepresented, now Nazarbaev's words. He repeats this frase last two years, and context of this particular talk kept no reference to Putin.
Mendy, you raised the issue that was discussed and investigated in Russia and Kazakhstan, and only liberal jornalists are trying to make fools of their readers.
It is enough to give the full speeches to see what leaders wanted to say.
Stop having sex with men
You mean Russian media distorted the Putin's words? :)
You again have misrepresented, now Nazarbaev's words. He repeats this frase last two years, and context of this particular talk kept no reference to Putin.
Mendy, you raised the issue that was discussed and investigated in Russia and Kazakhstan, and only liberal jornalists are trying to make fools of their readers.
It is enough to give the full speeches to see what leaders wanted to say.
Belvis, you my friend are making yourself look very foolish. Perhaps you should pause for at least a few minutes before making these type comments. All propagandist look to make fools of their audience. No one is better at this than the Russia/Putin propaganda machine. You are proof of that.
Hah? I guess you have no idea what we were disputing with Mendy about. Do you know what and when Nazarbaev said about Eurasian Customs Union, and what Putin said about Kazakhstan? I hope you will be able to keep discussion on topic :D
If you want share your thoughts about Russia/Putin propaganda machine, please address Muzh or lordtiberius, I prefer to argue over concrete themes.
Hah? I guess you have no idea what we were disputing with Mendy about. Do you know what and when Nazarbaev said about Eurasian Customs Union, and what Putin said about Kazakhstan? I hope you will be able to keep discussion on topic :D
If you want share your thoughts about Russia/Putin propaganda machine, please address Muzh or lordtiberius, I prefer to argue over concrete themes.
Before people get too up in arms about "corruption" in Ukraine understand that it's been that way for about 300 years because their salary simply is not enough (not even remotely enough) to live on. So yes many will get small bribes to get something done faster. Most here would do the same -- had they been born and raised there and had no other way to support their families.
The real problem is that some are probably much better than others at abusing their authority -- so yes Ukraine will eventually have a much better future provided they do move away from the bribe system. It simply won't happen overnight.
Putin doesn’t even need to achieve an immediate military victory in the East, just maintain the status-quo until the IMF will no longer bail out Ukraine...
The breakaway regions of the east accounted for nearly 16 per cent of Ukraine’s economic output before the start of hostilities.
But much of that was in dying, inefficient industries. Furthermore, that region took 25% of government revenue, so it was a net drain on the country.
Ukraine Prognostications
This is a long well thought out article with food for thought.
Predictions and Program for Ukraine for the Next 30 Months
Oct 29th, 2014 | By pani | Category: Economics, Editor's Choice, Human Rights, In Depth, Infowars, International Relations, National Security, Politics, Russia, Ukraine, Wars
?Maidan? website is full of texts of ?I told you so? genre. We said that Russia wanted to annex Crimea, one of members of MMIC published a book about it in 2009. We wrote that Ukrainian Army was being intentionally destroyed on demand of Moscow. We wrote in December 2005 that Ukraine should stop using Russian gas and quickly find alternative energy sources. We warned that Ukrainian Parliament elected in 2006 and 2012 would be dissolved before its legal term was over. We had predicted in 2004, that Yanukovych rule would be bloody. However, nobody listened to us.
Everything changed now. VIPs listen to us and we are sometimes heard. Therefore, our NGO will be posting predictions regularly and we will be publicly monitoring whether they come true. Here are my prognosis and programs for Ukraine.
Continued at the link.
http://world.maidanua.org/2014/predictions-and-program-for-ukraine-for-the-next-30-months (http://world.maidanua.org/2014/predictions-and-program-for-ukraine-for-the-next-30-months)
An article on Ukraine's internal refugees -
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/dec/22/ukraine-refugees-home-internally-displaced-people-war-east-russia
An article on conditions in one terrorist controlled town. Note that the town is controlled by Russian mercenaries, who, we have been told here, are not fighting in Ukraine ("The rebel faction that controls the town, a detachment of the Russia-based Don Cossack Host").
http://news.nationalpost.com/2014/12/24/christmas-under-fire-conditions-increasingly-dire-for-citizens-of-rebel-held-ukrainian-town/
Is this aid package enough?
Finally some good news,
Canada to initiate free trade with Ukraine
Finally some good news,
Canada to initiate free trade with Ukraine
http://m.thestar.com/#/article/news/world/2015/01/25/canada-talks-free-trade-in-kyiv-as-fighting-intensifies-in-eastern-ukraine.html (http://m.thestar.com/#/article/news/world/2015/01/25/canada-talks-free-trade-in-kyiv-as-fighting-intensifies-in-eastern-ukraine.html)
EU waits for Putin's blessing. US clueless
Reverse Flows Shore Up Ukrainian Gas Supplies
After the gas crisis of 2008 to 2009, during which Russia cut off gas supplies to Ukraine for nearly two weeks, Europe resolved to beef up its energy infrastructure to help prevent such an event in the future. By building out so-called “reverse flow” capabilities, European countries could increase their ability to supply one another in the case of crisis. Now, as Reuters reports, Europe’s reverse flow capacity looks set to jump nearly 27 percent this weekend:
Reverse flows have received a major boost from the new Budince interconnection point between Slovakia and Ukraine. Flows between the two countries began last September following a deal between Slovak transmission system operator Eustream and its Ukrainian counterpart Ukrtransgaz.
In addition, EU member Poland can send 4 mcm per day into Ukraine and Hungary has the capacity to send 16 mcm/day, although Polish reverse flows have not been used this year.
The thinking behind this strategy is easy to understand: it’s not feasible for Europe to significantly reduce its dependence on Russian gas, but if it can construct a more robust pipeline network, it can undercut Putin’s divide-and-conquer strategy. It’s not a perfect solution, but for the time being it’s the best Europe—and especially Ukraine—can hope to employ.
http://www.the-american-interest.com/2015/01/25/reverse-flows-shore-up-ukrainian-gas-supplies/
Canada must first send some money over there so Ukraine can buy their goods. Problem is if the West sends money over there now, the money will go to Russia if the country changes hands. First the conflict must end before the economy can be repaired.
The presence of foreign corporations in Ukrainian agriculture is growing quickly, with more than 1.6 million hectares signed over to foreign companies for agricultural purposes in recent years. While Monsanto, Cargill, and DuPont have been in Ukraine for quite some time, their investments in the country have grown significantly over the past few years.
As usual, we must read the fine print. The West has a shameful reputation in this part of the world.
That is a blanket statement that tells us nothing. Most Ukrainians that I know do not have the idea that the West is shameful.
What you've stated is NOT what I've seen or heard there from many.
I'm not. :rolleyes: I must hang with folks with a better outlook on life.
The Russians spend $ 88 Billion of their $ 2 trillion economy on the military. That is why I recommended $ 100 billion in military aid which is double the George Soros figure and that figure excludes economic aid which Ukraine needs.
Also Russia must be attacked by proxy on different fronts.
...and who do you think is going to pay for this?
Who are you volunteering to do this attacking? They may tell you to stuff it.
You can debate me or insult me. You cannot do both. If you want to interrogate me, I will answer you but I expect the same courtesy. Your responses apriori do not lend themselves to good will.
...and who do you think is going to pay for this?
Who are you volunteering to do this attacking? They may tell you to stuff it.
the US alone
Team Poroshenko
1. Why is Russia in Ukraine?
2. Why do the Novorossiya people humiliate its POWs?
1. Protecting its buffer zone.
A buffer from what? Europe? :ROFL:
Yeah, Russia has never been attacked from Europe before has it?
When was the last time that occurred? Europe is a very different place. And, while Russia's former enemies have lived relative peace, Russia has been embroiled in numerous wars.
Times change. Todays friends can be tomorrows enemies.
Ms. Merkel would say you are living in '14. That is 1914. The same logic you are applying is the same logic that the Kremlin is applying. It is logic for a bygone era. Things are much more inter-related now.
Times change. Todays friends can be tomorrows enemies.
Good luck with that.
1. Protecting its buffer zone.
2. Well at least they're not making necklaces out of their ears.
A buffer from what? Europe? :ROFL:
EU showed its true colors when deciding not to send weapons to Ukraine. If Europe through its agent NATO ever had plans about attacking Russia, they would be arming the Ukrainians now for the purpose of testing and probing the Russian military machine.
Russia needs a buffer only because it refuses to collaborate with the world community. Russian under Putin is behaving more and more like an outlaw, and the world is becoming a more interconnected community. Russia needs a buffer so Putin can hide from his countrymen the success of the Western economy in improving the life of people.
If Poroshenko can institutionalize the needed economic reforms, Ukraine will become a success story. This would be a difficult undertaking for Poroshenko in peacetime. With the Russian bear threatening him, the task is impossible.
War has changed. Furthermore, those former enemies are already on Moscow's doorstep, through the Baltics. Ukraine will matter not one iota. This was never about Russian military security. It was about economics.
Times change. Todays friends can be tomorrows enemies.
and who do you think is going to pay for this?
1. Protecting its buffer zone.
The last 70 years of Europe being at peace is actually very unusual.
The last 70 years of Europe being at peace is actually very unusual. With all the EU trouble going on now it's not too hard to imagine something jumping off. Especially if the economic situation gets a lot worse. Money is the root of most wars.
War has changed. Furthermore, those former enemies are already on Moscow's doorstep, through the Baltics. Ukraine will matter not one iota. This was never about Russian military security. It was about economics.
No, I don't think they are intertwined.
You are wrong! Not the first time, nor the last.
Steamer,
I had never acknowledged what an appropriate user name you have. There you are, steaming along. Whether that is good or bad, I'm not sure.
You say money is the root of all evil? Well, I would like to amend that for you. Money, concentrated in the hands of a few, is the dominating factor in leading to belligerence and war.
It is not the United State's responsibility to play cop.
And before the backseat patriots tell me to leave the country let me remind them that I'm an American and I have a RIGHT to criticize my government.
No, I think you are wrong to think that for Russia, military security isn't/won't be important to their economics...ditto for the USA.
Fathertime!
But play world cop we will because it's our duty to show this ignorant world how to live their lives the 'correct' way, 'our' way.
These are just my opinions based. Let me amend that again. 'Economics' is the basis for most wars. But play world cop we will because it's our duty to show this ignorant world how to live their lives the 'correct' way, 'our' way. Is this what you want to tell me? And before the backseat patriots tell me to leave the country let me remind them that I'm an American and I have a RIGHT to criticize my government.
Steamer,
I would be the first to defend your right to criticize your government.
But you underestimate me. I am one who does not believe in the Ugly American. Instead, I would hope our country can be more circumspect and that is why, until this time, I have advocated for non-intervention in Ukraine by the US. But, I believe that Russia will immediately go back on its word and that there have to be consequences for that abrogation of an accord signed only a week ago. I would hope that Europe would step up, but don't believe that any European countries have the leadership right now to move forward.
Another beautifully written article, and well translated, by Vitaly Portnikov.
http://www.eurozine.com/articles/2014-03-07-portnikov-en.html (http://www.eurozine.com/articles/2014-03-07-portnikov-en.html)
Another beautifully written article, and well translated, by Vitaly Portnikov.
http://www.eurozine.com/articles/2014-03-07-portnikov-en.html (http://www.eurozine.com/articles/2014-03-07-portnikov-en.html)
And finally, an interview Portnikov gave to the Polish press. Very important, and I think he is right on a lot of points.
http://euromaidanpress.com/2015/02/24/managing-putin-and-building-ukraine/ (http://euromaidanpress.com/2015/02/24/managing-putin-and-building-ukraine/)
" and deprive Europe the moral leadership it lacks.
:cluebat: Huh??? :cluebat:
According to this article, it appears that the intent was/is somewhat limited, which if true could mean an end to the fighting sooner rather than later.
According to this article, it appears that the intent was/is somewhat limited, which if true could mean an end to the fighting sooner rather than later.
Putin has already advanced further than the recommendations of the memo which is a clear indication that there may be no limit to what Putin is willing to do.
Neville Chamberlain:
Unfortunately you read only an overview apparently. The Newsweek version was edited for length. I do respect you for reading it, and seeing another side of the conflict.
Rain TV ran the Russian language version, as did Echo Radio, and I read the original Novaya Gazeta version. It is anything but "limited" in scope. It calls for the gradual breakup of Ukraine into small independent units, which over time (and with the constitutional changes you mentioned), annex large swaths after so-called referendums were held. The final goal was to force a smaller remaining Ukraine back into the federation at some point.
I'm glad you are respecting the opinion I've been stating, even if you think it is not correct.
Price of oil in play again
http://oilprice.com/Energy/Oil-Prices/Could-Oil-Prices-Plummet-A-Second-Time.html
Oil at $ 44 in January
22,000 jobs lost in Houston
US economic growth re-tooling away from oil production. Free money from Wall street blunts lower prices of commodities and hurts main street while US oligarchs get even richer.
The DC GOP is apart of that plan too. They have made no significant progress in reversing this trend even with control of both houses of Congress.
Which is why a real 3rd party would be good for the country and good for DC.
Which is why a real 3rd party would be good for the country and good for DC.
Or get rid of the party system and let each 'politico' run on his own merits.
It would not necessarily be a bad thing for Ukraine if those areas were recognized as independent countries, provided the war, and territorial ambitions stopped.
Defeatism disguises itself in pragmatism.
Would it be better for thousands more to die for an area that is not economically a plus for Ukraine?
Wouldn't it be Nice if the war stopped completely and everyone went back to here they came from?
That area is not an economic plus for Ukraine. It takes more in services that it sends back to Kyiv, and its industry is largely dirty, dangerous, and being phased out.
If the Kremlin doesn't want further sanctions, it won't have much choice. Cutting the ability of oligarchs to access their funds (via SWIFT), and restricting their ability to travel abroad will bring the Kremlin into line. The question you ask is the wrong one. The right question is whether the EU has the cojones to up the ante.
For those foolish enough to say that sanctions aren't working: last week in the Security Council meeting, Mr. Putin informed all ministers that their personal salaries have been cut by 10% immediately due to the on-going budget stains. Mr. Medvedev indicated that those cuts will be passed on down the line to the various departments.
Declaring Donbas to be independent will be a death sentence to the poor folk stuck there. If you are ignorant of that reality, visit Abkhazia or Transnistria sometime. Poverty heaped upon poverty is all those folks have because they bring no value to Russia, yet Russia has placed them in some backwater "frozen" conflict that holds them in hell.
You say I am asking the wrong question and yet you ask a question we all know the answer to. No the EU does not have a moral conscience.
Puerto Rico is an economic drain. So is Newfoundland. So if Cuba or Russia takes over Newfoundland or the PR, your response is oh well?
The land and the people of the Donbas is rich and beautiful. They are Ukrainian and want to live in Ukraine and indeed are dying for Ukraine. If we do not keep faith with these people, then we are the weaker for it, not them.
You say I am asking the wrong question and yet you ask a question we all know the answer to. No the EU does not have a moral conscience.
Puerto Rico is an economic drain. So is Newfoundland. So if Cuba or Russia takes over Newfoundland or the PR, your response is oh well?
The land and the people of the Donbas is rich and beautiful. They are Ukrainian and want to live in Ukraine and indeed are dying for Ukraine. If we do not keep faith with these people, then we are the weaker for it, not them.
For those foolish enough to say that sanctions aren't working: last week in the Security Council meeting, Mr. Putin informed all ministers that their personal salaries have been cut by 10% immediately due to the on-going budget stains. Mr. Medvedev indicated that those cuts will be passed on down the line to the various departments.
Sure, sanctions are working and hurting the Russian economy. But so are they hurting the EU economy. One of the goals of Washington, to separate Europe and Russia. Hopefully that will not succeeed. Either EU break ties With US Foreign policy or they lose out as Russia goes east for good.
Short of a full armed conflict, sanctions are one leg of the table, but an important leg. They are having an impact, and will continue to do so as long as the West keeps up the pressure.
China is not participating in the sanctions which is a win-win for China/Russia.
Despite your flirtation with the Euromaidan movement, your recent positions makes you an appeaser. You are worthless to me and back on the ignore list.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Independence_movement_in_Puerto_Rico (http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Independence_movement_in_Puerto_Rico)
You can't get your facts straight. Typical for a socialist
From my perspective one concern I have about sanctions is that I believe Russia will survive them, and when it is over we (the USA) will will be out of the loop and lose business. China is not participating in the sanctions which is a win-win for China/Russia.
Fathertime!
Before Putin stepped into Ukraine, he had already factored in all the consequences and was prepared to accept them.
Because he accepts sanctions, they don't work.
Not even close.
For the WTO alone, Russia needs the USA, not to mention the G8 again at some point. China simply cannot supply all the things that Western nations do.
Russia and the USA are more intertwined that most citizens of either nation realize: When the Ruble crashes, what currency do Russians still stash under the mattress? US Dollars, by far.
Where do a majority of Russians want to travel, at least once in their lifetimes? The USA.
When it comes to second homes, think London, Miami, New York, and to a lesser degree Chicago and California. Are any of those locations in China?
When Russian families send children abroad to study, it certainly is not to China. Hint: the USA, and the UK.
When Russian companies gauge their growth and competitiveness against others, where are most of those located? Hint: it is definitely not China.
As the Russian military modernizes and reforms, who does it use to measure progress? Hint: it still ain't China, my friend.
Now this next part may surprise you:
While the Soviets labeled the USA as the "main enemy," there was another large nation, on Russia's borders, that Russians still consider as a natural enemy, and fully expect to have to engage in a future conflict over borders? Hint: it ain't the USA.
Regionally, which neighboring country makes Moscow most nervous? Hint, it still ain't the USA.
Russia has also deepened ties with India as a political and economic counterweight to which other Eastern nation? Hint: it still ain't the USA.
The potential ambitions of which neighboring nation has caused the Russian prioritize investment and development of the Russian Far East? Hint: it still ain't the USA.
Speaking of the question above, the Russians have made a priority of upgrading military readiness in the Far East, and in particular the modernization of transport systems so as to allow the Russian military to have a rapid response in case of serious border violations. What nation makes the Kremlin nervous about this issue? Hint: it still ain't the USA.
Have the Chinese and Russians increased trade? Sure, that was in the works (as I have written to you previously) long before the current tensions. So, which nation seized upon Russia's current problems to renegotiate (downward) previously agreed upon oil prices? Hint: it still ain't the USA.
You also need to understand that Mr. Putin's mindset is very much one of holding his friends close, and if possible, his enemies closer. Russia is rebuilding China's railroads, for instance. Russia is consulting China on water/dam projects. Russia is consulting China on nuclear power expansion. So what would be a major concern in Security Council meetings? I'll answer that one for you: Moscow fears that on one hand they need to develop economic ties with China in order to keep Chinese expansion curtailed (BRICS: those who trade together, play nice together). However, on the other hand, there is the equal fear that they will eventually help China to the point that China might feel empowered to undertake border expansion at Russia's expense.
In that vein, Russia needs an on-going relationship with the USA, as badly strained as it is, to help counterbalance China.
You must have read a LOT into my post!
Actually, he had not. Much of Western reaction caught him off guard.
Were you to live here, you'd have a different understanding.
Before Putin stepped into Ukraine, he had already factored in all the consequences and was prepared to accept them.
Billy:
Actually, he had not. Much of Western reaction caught him off guard.
We'll have to disagree on that one. There's no way I'd believe that Putin didn't believe there would be consequences for invading the largest nation in Europe. Because he knew there would be punishment, right from the beginning he played his invasion off as a internal conflict/Ukrainian civil war. The Soviet Union was sanctioned for many years for spreading their influence around the world so Putin does have an idea on how the West would feel about his involvement in Ukraine.
From my perspective one concern I have about sanctions is that I believe Russia will survive them, and when it is over we (the USA) will will be out of the loop and lose business. China is not participating in the sanctions which is a win-win for China/Russia.
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Fathertime!
Neville:
No, there really wasn't much there, and I do not mean to be offensive by saying that.
However it is ever apparent that you lack a lot of the background knowledge to write coherently about the region. So rather than reading a lot into your post, I simply wrote a lot--as an investment in your data base. :)
From my perspective one concern I have about sanctions is that I believe Russia will survive them, and when it is over we (the USA) will will be out of the loop and lose business. China is not participating in the sanctions which is a win-win for China/Russia.
I was browsing the internet and read this story this morning.
http://news.yahoo.com/china-vows-cooperation-russia-despite-wests-sanctions-090311993.html (http://news.yahoo.com/china-vows-cooperation-russia-despite-wests-sanctions-090311993.html)
Fathertime!
What a bunch of nonsense, the aggressive nature of THE OBAMA ADMINISTRATION and FT's allegiance to America. This is one hundred bong hits away from being a good time. Put away the tin foil hats and live in the real world, boys.
What a bunch of nonsense, the aggressive nature of THE OBAMA ADMINISTRATION and FT's allegiance to America. This is one hundred bong hits away from being a good time. Put away the tin foil hats and live in the real world, boys.
I'm sure every Russian hates the fact their currency is losing strength and their quality of life is down but right now I see most people directing their anger towards the West more than Putin.I'd like to highlight some points. Russians are used to regular devaluations of ruble, the last one in 1998 was much more on large-scale than now. So anger is not the term I would employ, I would say the acceptance of the inevitable describes better the emotional reaction to devaluation. Even in propaganda West is hold responsible for weakening the currency to very limited extent. People realize the dependence of Russia on oil price, and it's siily to blame business cycles.
In that vein, Russia needs an on-going relationship with the USA, as badly strained as it is, to help counterbalance China.
What a bunch of nonsense, the aggressive nature of THE OBAMA ADMINISTRATION and FT's allegiance to America. This is one hundred bong hits away from being a good time. Put away the tin foil hats and live in the real world, boys.
The idea floated here, that Kyiv is overrun by fascists, is laughable.
I ask those who hold that notion to be true to please name all these fascists with real power. Note - this is the third time I have made the request.
Neville:
No, there really wasn't much there, and I do not mean to be offensive by saying that.
However it is ever apparent that you lack a lot of the background knowledge to write coherently about the region. So rather than reading a lot into your post, I simply wrote a lot--as an investment in your data base. :)
While the Soviets labeled the USA as the "main enemy," there was another large nation, on Russia's borders, that Russians still consider as a natural enemy, and fully expect to have to engage in a future conflict over borders? Hint: it ain't the USA.
The idea floated here, that Kyiv is overrun by fascists, is laughable.
I ask those who hold that notion to be true to please name all these fascists with real power. Note - this is the third time I have made the request.
Well, actually right now Russia needs good relationship with China to help counterbalance USA. There are no fixed relationships in politics, there are constant state interests. Likely in future Russia will need to counterbalance China but now China is not our headache contrary to what some men hope for.
OK
how about Andriy Parubiy: Deputy Minister of the Interior. Neo Nazi party director in the 90's.
Interestingly he was in charge of security at Maidan during the protests (where a 100+ were killed)
Oleg Tyagnibok MP Head of the Svoboda Party
Dmitry Yarosh Head of the Right Sector Militia
I'll have to dig further for more but this should get you started.
it is in China's interests to help Russia right now.
Please point out what positions they hold in the current government.
Yarosh has stated he is not a fascist. Tyahnybok is a former commie. He has in the past made anti Semitic statements, but while Svoboda is far right, whether or not it is fascist is still a matter of debate. In any event, please let me know what positions either of these men hold in the current Ukrainian government.
None of them are in positions of any importance in the current cabinet or Rada. In fact, Tyahnybok doesn't even hold a seat in the current Rada.
My question is, who are all these fascists who are now running Kyiv? That question still stands.
None of them are in positions of any importance in the current cabinet or Rada.
There are more fascists and neo Nazis in Russia's Duma than there are in Ukraine's Rada.
steamer if you believe this below from your link , ??
then nobody is not going to change your perspective one iota imo
SX
http://www.globalresearch.ca/the-u-s-has-installed-a-neo-nazi-government-in-ukraine/5371554 (http://www.globalresearch.ca/the-u-s-has-installed-a-neo-nazi-government-in-ukraine/5371554)
That could very well be true but that doesn't make all the Ukrainian fascists disappear.
Your source, which I have read in the past, is very flawed and biased. I have no problem in calling a spade a spade. I personally do not believe Svoboda is a fascist party. It was founded by former nomenklatura as an ultra nationalist party, because nationalism is the easiest way to control the masses. If communism "sold" in that part of Ukraine, Svoboda would be a communist party. Svoboda does have some troubling aspects, and some of its members are swine, but that is a different story.
BTW, I am not suggesting there are no fascists in the Rada. Andrey Biltesky holds views I consider fascist. However, he is one voice, and a minority one in the current Rada. That is my point. The leaders in Kyiv never were fascists, despite what Natural and Shadow have asserted.
Fascism is often used as an epithet, especially by the left, but it actually is a perfectly respectable academic term that refers to a particular type of political system. Everyone can agree that fascist states are authoritarian -- that is, they lack the fundamental attributes of democracy. Unlike democracies, fascist systems lack meaningful parliaments, judiciaries, parties, political contestation and elections. In fascist systems, as in all authoritarian systems, parliaments are rubber-stamp institutions, judiciaries do what the leader tells them, opposition parties are marginal and electoral outcomes are preordained.http://www.huffingtonpost.com/alexander-motyl/putin-calls-ukraine-fasci_b_6600292.html (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/alexander-motyl/putin-calls-ukraine-fasci_b_6600292.html)
Like all authoritarian states, fascist states are highly centralized and hierarchical, they give pride of place within the power structure to soldiers and policemen, usually secret policemen, and they always have a supreme leader. Indeed, there can be no fascist state without a supreme leader. Like authoritarian states, fascist states limit freedom of the press, freedom of speech and freedom of assembly; and espouse some form of ethnocentrism glorifying their nation and their state and their fabulous past, present and future.
But fascist states are not just run-of-the-mill authoritarian states. The latter typically connotes images of dour old men ruling a sullen population. Fascist states exude youth and vigor, and they always implicate the population in its own repression. Fascist leaders strut. They want to appear youthful, manly and active: they are machos, par excellence. They also appeal to those qualities in the population, usually co-opting the young into their movements or parties. No less important, fascist states are popular: they incorporate the population into the system of rule, promising it a grand and glorious future in exchange for its enthusiasm and support.
Not surprisingly, fascist states tend to sound and act aggressively. The soldiers and policemen that run fascist states have a natural proclivity to toughness and weaponry. The ethnocentrism appeals to national and state glory, and cult of vigor sees enemies everywhere. The machismo-based cult-like status of leaders encourages them to pound their chests with abandon. And the population's implication in its own repression leads it to balance its self-humiliation with attempts to humiliate others.
IS UKRAINE RULED BY FASCISTS?
Supporters of the Ukraine-is-fascist argument might say that Ukraine is not fascist, but its rulers are fascists who want to establish a fascist system of rule. Alas, this claim is absurd.
Poroshenko and his predecessor, Acting President Oleksandr Turchynov, are obviously not fascists.
None of the current cabinet members has anything resembling fascist credentials. The government that succeeded the corrupt Yanukovych dictatorship in late February 2014 consisted of 19 individuals: only two (Defense Minister Ihor Tenyukh and Deputy Prime Minister Oleksandr Sych) were members of the right-wing Svoboda party and one, the Secretary of the National and Security Defense Council Andriy Parubiy, had right-wing ties until 2004.
In early 2014, Svoboda had 38 seats (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-20113616) in Ukraine's parliament -- out of a total of 450. Svoboda's leader, Oleh Tyahnybok, had run for president in the 2010 elections that brought Yanukovych to power and received 1.43 percent (http://gazeta.ua/articles/politics/_cvk-oprilyudnila-oficijni-rezultati-1go-turu-viboriv/324402) of the vote. He ran again, in the presidential ballot of May 25, 2014, and received 1.16 percent (http://www.cvk.gov.ua/vp2014/wp300pt001f01=702.html). Dmytro Yarosh, head of the right-wing Right Sector, received a mere 0.70 percent (http://www.cvk.gov.ua/vp2014/wp300pt001f01=702.html) in 2014. In the October 26, 2104, parliamentary elections, Svoboda and the Right Sector got, respectively, six seats and one seat (http://en.interfax.com.ua/news/general/233747.html).
I've noticed that ANY source, ANY photo that does not sing the praises of Ukraine is flawed and biased. It's OK, I get it.
OK but isn't government merely a sum of it's parts?
If China ever wants to be top dog, they have to partner up with others before dropping USA. China and Russia have made many business agreements over the last year and they are bonding, especially with that $400 billion gas deal. Birds of a feather flock together. Russia and China both have ambitions to spread their borders. Recently a poll in Japan had China passing up North Korea for the first time as the major threat. Poll below shows Russians heavily favor China over America by almost 40%.
http://www.gallup.com/poll/173597/russian-approval-putin-soars-highest-level-years.aspx
Please read this piece by an academic, Alexander Motyl. He is a political scientist and Rutgers, and an acclaimed academic. Disclaimer - he is an ethnic diaspora Ukrainian and at times, I find he is a bit nationalistic. However, this piece, in terms of Ukraine, is accurate, IMHO -
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/alexander-motyl/putin-calls-ukraine-fasci_b_6600292.html (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/alexander-motyl/putin-calls-ukraine-fasci_b_6600292.html)
I read this. Comparing this to the US congress can you imagine how horrified people would be if you told them the current congress "only has 38 Klansmen and 7 Neo Nazis" out of 450. I wouldn't feel good.
Steamer, no offense my friend, but you obviously have yet to be introduced around the Russian Duma. ;D
You won't read that from me.
I read this. Comparing this to the US congress can you imagine how horrified people would be if you told them the current congress "only has 38 Klansmen and 7 Neo Nazis" out of 450. I wouldn't feel good.
But it is true.
Tell me then what source you WOULD accept as unbiased or not flawed and understand that your sources are subject to the same scrutiny.
I have no doubt the Duma has many bad characters but (no offence to you either) we were discussing the bad characters in the Rada which I am being told are of no consequence. They do however take nice group photos with US officials.
There were Klansman elected to the Senate, and at least one former KKK member was elected president (and was a good one, at that), and outright racists (Thurmond, Helms, Barr, Lott) whose statements had zero effect on their reelections. Furthermore, some Tea Party support is based on the colour of Obama's skin, rather than some deep commitment to smaller government. So, perhaps you shouldn't feel so good already.
Most Western media, which is not biased.
No, bad characters is a different issue. Most of the characters in the Rada are, IMHO, bad characters.
My question was specifically, who are the "fascists in control" in Kyiv, to such a degree that invasion of Eastern Ukraine was necessary? No one who has put forward that narrative can point to all these evil fascists who are controlling the government and putting Russia at risk.
No. Here is my question yesterday -
I see that you are adding in some extra qualifiers; enough to change the subject.
I ask those who hold that notion to be true to please name all these fascistsIn the past, I have asked who the fascists are who are running Kyiv.
with real power.
You must be joking. Western media is merely the US propaganda dept.
All either dead or retired which is farther away from govt. activities than Parubiy,Tyagnibok and Yarosh who were good enough to pose for photos with John Mccain and Nuland.
Hi Natasha
welcome to the site.
You will find that many men regard your beautiful city as a 'bad' place to look for a wife :( ((((
This is probably because there have been a few tv documentaries showing men - who have no chance to find a good women at home believe they could arrive in Odessa and a line will form - as they are from the west ;) )))))
There are tours organised - many of which feature Odessa - and women are invited to meet these men.
It would be great if we could try to keep the politics out of threads relating to relationships
Or relationships out of threads relating to politics. :)
Boe, you should do more romancing and less quarreling :P
Very good and dark analysis of the situation that will be in Ukraine after the war
http://www.odnako.org/blogs/za-devyatim-krugom-ada-kakie-peremeni-zhdut-ukrainskoe-obshchestvo-posle-voyni/
but (no offence to you either) we were discussing the bad characters in the Rada which I am being told are of no consequence.
My question was specifically, who are the "fascists in control" in Kyiv, to such a degree that invasion of Eastern Ukraine was necessary?OK, you have asked this question so many times so that I feel obliged to answer it.
They lost their lives because they defended men and women, children and the elderly who found themselves in a situation facing a threat to be killed by invaders and sponsored by them subhumans. First, we will commemorate the heroes by wiping out those who killed them and then by cleaning our land from the evil.Word "subhuman" is echoing the racist propaganda of Nazism as well as "cleaning our land". Though one can argue about correct translation of Ukrainian word нелюды into subhuman, prime minister should be more careful in wording concerning his own citizens.
OK, you have asked this question so many times so that I feel obliged to answer it.I know that Bandera=fascist was drilled into every Soviet's head, and that notion still is very strong in Eastern Ukraine and beyond. However, I disagree with your agreement with this attitude.
"Fascist in control in Kiev" was never used by high Russian officials. This word is widely used in pro-Russian rebel sources, and was used in Russian media in times when Ukrainian nationalists were in power in Kiev. The last is easy explainable, in Russia people who glorify Bandera are equal to Nazi supporters, and I agree with such attitude if not to go deeper to the scientific or historic definition of fashism.
Why matching of Kiev govenment with fashists meets with a generous response atBut the conflict in Donbas was not started by locals. Moreover, it came before the Odesa fire.
Donbass? Because people at Donbass see the attitude of men in power in Kiev
towards Donbass. I'll specify some facts which were taken close to hearts at
Donbass. First, Odessa was turning point in the conflict. Death of a few tens
men was justified by some Ukrainian officials with convincing claim that
victims were pro-Russian separatists. Nobody was sentenced in Odessa fire so
far.
Close aide to Kolomoiski, Boris Filatov, hadDon't you think that Kolomoisky and Filatov would have been gone without a war?
written at his Facebook page famous phrase about pro-Russians: Promise them
whatever they want, we'll hang them later. Filatov is not Ukrainian jornalist
(that would be natural), he is a high rank official in key Ukrainian region.
Prime minister of Ukraine, Arseny Yatsenyuk has referred to pro-Russians atI would not translate "nelyudy" from Ukrainian as subhuman. I would translate it as not acting in a normal, humanitarian manner, inhumane. Moreover, Yatseniuk never stated that they would cleanse individuals from lands. Note, I say this with no particular fondness for Yatseniuk.
Donbass as subhuman:Word "subhuman" is echoing the racist propaganda of Nazism
as well as "cleaning our land". Though one can argue about correct translation
of Ukrainian word нелюды into subhuman, prime minister should be more careful in
wording concerning his own citizens.
Even more with Yatsnyuk, who recently associated Ukraine with Germany in WWII in sense that both countries falled victims to Soviet assault.Once again, the quote is not taken in the context it was made. He stated that Eastern and Central Europe, like Ukraine, were victims as they were subjugated to the USSR. This, in my opinion, is accurate. The USSR was, as Reagan famously stated, an "evil empire". I know you think differently, but this was widely viewed as true in Central Ukraine when Reagan made the statement.
Some of Ukrainians are fighting at Donbass under swastika. There are RussianDemocracies should be strong enough to not have to ban symbols. The swasitika is not banned in North America, in fact, Nazis were allowed to march through a Jewish neighbourhood outside Chicago, and their right to do so was protected by the ACLU.
nazis at Donbass too fighting among rebels, however there is a big difference. Swastika and Nazi attributes are outlawed in Russia, Nazi supporters are prosecuted, while Ukrainians have got tolerable attitude to them.
All of this creates the emotional background at Donbass where thousands were killed by Ukrainian army. Rebels see the enemy and labeled them as fashists without turning to Wikipedia to know the right meaning of this word.
Bo you're just being deliberately difficult. Parubiy is still a minister.
I read this. Comparing this to the US congress can you imagine how horrified people would be if you told them the current congress "only has 38 Klansmen and 7 Neo Nazis" out of 450. I wouldn't feel good.
Some of Ukrainians are fighting at Donbass under swastika. There are Russian nazis at Donbass too fighting among rebels, however there is a big difference. Swastika and Nazi attributes are outlawed in Russia, Nazi supporters are prosecuted, while Ukrainians have got tolerable attitude to them.
Why you speak of things you not know?
The best thing the US can do for PR is to give them their independence. Here's the irony. What is happening in PR is exactly what the US and the Western world are pontificating to Russia for doing. Namely, holding a territory hostage for no reason except to project power.
Steamer, no offense my friend, but you obviously have yet to be introduced around the Russian Duma. ;D
This, too, is a feature of projective identification. Thus Ukrainians are systematically accused of fascism, while Russian fascism is displaced by a false idealization of one’s own image.
But this only begins to describe the situation in Russia today. It is complicated by the paradoxes of post-imperial victimization.
Today’s Russian fascist is simultaneously omnipotent and persecuted.
Heroic self-assertion turns into infantilization and the victimization of the very project of self-assertion. The more effort put into the projected overcoming of inferiority, the more the “hero” of the Russian world starts to look like a scruffy and troubled young man who lets himself be called “Motorola.”
Most Western media, which is not biased.
Where is the bias in that article?
There is none. It's from a western source discussing the nazi's in the Azov battalion and how they are harassing the people in Mariupol. The nazi's that you (and others) keep saying don't exist.
There is none. It's from a western source discussing the nazi's in the Azov battalion and how they are harassing the people in Mariupol. The nazi's that you (and others) keep saying don't exist.
There was only one allegation by a civilian against this battalion, and it was by a woman whose two sons were initially detained and their cash and other stuff confiscated. Unlike the real thugs, the pro-Putin bunch, the Ukrainians returned all to her and her sons. A CO of the Azov battalion offered her an independent investigation into the allegation, which she has accepted.
What about the drill sgt. who claimed that half of the battalion were nazis and the CO said he would be severely punished for his lack of discipline (spilling the beans).
A. I never stated Nazis don't exist. Everyone knows that the non ATO forces are made up of people of various political persuasions. Neo Nazis exist everywhere. Did you notice the article stated the Azov fighters came mostly from Donbas (i.e., not from the "fascist Western Ukraine")? What I stated was that fascists do not have power in Kyiv (i.e., the Ukrainian government is not fascist). That assertion by me has yet to be proven wrong.
What I stated was that fascists do not have power in Kyiv (i.e., the Ukrainian government is not fascist).
The article did not state the Azov battalion is a neo Nazi or Nazi battalion. It stated some of its members were neo Nazis, and some have been heavy handed with locals.
Of course that's why the sgt. said they were going to march on Kiev to oust the corrupt govt. once the fighting stops.
OK so it's not a nazi battalion but according to the sgt. about half of the men are nazis that have been harassing the locals. My comprehension is just fine.
The battalion CO did not agree with the "half" figure. One of the guys is Jewish and nobody is trying to kill or harass him.
Of course the CO didn't agree with the half figure, he understood he was speaking to a reporter the sgt. didn't care. The sgt. also said that he was good with Jews and didn't believe in genocide. That must have been very reassuring to the one Jew. :D
Of course that's why the sgt. said they were going to march on Kiev to oust the corrupt govt. once the fighting stops.
OK so it's not a nazi battalion but according to the sgt. about half of the men are nazis that have been harassing the locals. My reading comprehension is just fine.
Steamer is lazy. You haven't figured that out yet?
"With cash and food resources dwindling, local administrators in the eastern 'Donetsk People's Republic' are struggling with day-to-day issues of survival – and bitter residents."........................“If we don’t have any help from Russia and this isn’t solved in March, there will be a social explosion here,” warns Olga Gregoriyeva, another local administrator. “People are fainting from hunger.”
Steamer, have you any personal experience with the Azov? I know several, and they are just like you and me, committed to protecting their homeland against the Russian invaders.
Friends of Mendy from Azov:
(http://www.kp.ru/f/12/image/88/95/7989588.jpg)
(http://emaidan.com.ua/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/fashisty.jpg)
(http://ic.pics.livejournal.com/hueviebin1/18409908/210770/210770_600.jpg)
Of course, not everybody in Azov shares Nazi views. Nevertheless I'm supprised Mendy considers himself just like Azov soldiers. Though he's correct formally, Nazi also tried to protect their homeland against the Russian invaders in WWII.
"With cash and food resources dwindling, local administrators in the eastern 'Donetsk People's Republic' are struggling with day-to-day issues of survival – and bitter residents."........................“If we don’t have any help from Russia and this isn’t solved in March, there will be a social explosion here,” warns Olga Gregoriyeva, another local administrator. “People are fainting from hunger.”
http://news.yahoo.com/rebel-held-ukraine-hotline-calls-soar-government-flails-135741388.html (http://news.yahoo.com/rebel-held-ukraine-hotline-calls-soar-government-flails-135741388.html)
Nicely staged pictures, Belvis. Exactly the type we would expect you to have in your possession.
Begin with the third one. That is a photoshopped head on the guy to the left. The guy to the right is indeterminate.
The second one has no one who can be identified. Intentionally blacked out.
The first one could be real. But based on what we have seen from Russia, such as the photoshopped location of the Buk Missile location in the shoot down of the jet, one would think that this was probably falsified too.
[/size]All in all, Belvis has come on here and repeatedly given the official Russian talking points. I have grown to be somewhat suspicious of things that come from Official Russian Sources.
[/size]I am also not very inclined to believe stuff I see coming from official Ukrainian Sources.
Looking at this objectively, I see that Russia is trying to exert its will over Ukraine. All the news stories, truthful or otherwise coming from Russia, are designed to support this official line of thought.
Please advise how the US has tried to exert its will over Ukraine.
Wow, could anyone be more specific than you? :ROFL:
Money buys influence.
What type of influence? Who in Ukraine is subject to US hegemony?
Money buys influence.
Money buys influence.
Yes it can. We did give billions so it is hard to figure out exactly who/what it was about...but I seriously doubt it was out of the kindness of our hearts.
Fathertime!
Friends of Mendy from Azov:
(http://www.kp.ru/f/12/image/88/95/7989588.jpg)
(http://emaidan.com.ua/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/fashisty.jpg)
(http://ic.pics.livejournal.com/hueviebin1/18409908/210770/210770_600.jpg)
Of course, not everybody in Azov shares Nazi views. Nevertheless I'm supprised Mendy considers himself just like Azov soldiers. Though he's correct formally, Nazi also tried to protect their homeland against the Russian invaders in WWII.
What type of influence? Who in Ukraine is subject to US hegemony?
Wow, could anyone be more specific than you? :ROFL:
Another Puntinist talking out of his popka!
Money buys influence.
Good point. Russia has never tried to buy influence in Ukraine, now have they? :rolleyes:
Not hard enough.
And for $5 more they'd get a happy ending.
As for the photos that have been making the rounds on Russian social media, it is truly odd that they aren't being promoted by the supposed fascists in Ukraine. I find it interesting that Russians can stage those kinds of things so quickly. Too quickly, and that is scary.
You should stop grasping at straws and admit Russia has failed, because they failed to really have a better offer.
That's why Russia should have bombed first and THEN bribed.
You shouldn't even joke like that, Steamer. Tens of thousands of Ukrainians, and more than 1,000 Russians have died, thanks to Kremlin policies. It is a tragedy.
That's why NATO should have bombed Moscow first and THEN bribed.
Really? That's not what I recall. In fact I recall Putin offering Ukraine a package valued at something like 10 to 15 Billion, which Yanukovych agreed to, but the Ukrainian people did not.
See Russia tried very hard to bribe Ukraine. The EU offer at the time IIRC was less than 1 Billion.
Why would Ukrainians not want such a generous deal from Russia, in favor of the paltry deal from the EU?
It's called self-determination, another word for freedom. In this case freedom from the bully to the East.
You should stop grasping at straws and admit Russia has failed, because they failed to really have a better offer. Contrary to your preferred narrative, it was never about money. I was about who they wanted to move closer to.
excerpt
"But then there are the financial incentives. In the end, the Russian president seems to have promised his Ukrainian counterpart several billion euros in the form of subsidies, debt forgiveness and duty-free imports. The EU, for its part, had offered Ukraine loans worth €610 million ($827 million), which it had increased at the last moment, along with the vague prospect of a €1 billion loan from the International Monetary Fund (IMF). Yanukovych chose Putin's billions instead."
http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/how-the-eu-lost-to-russia-in-negotiations-over-ukraine-trade-deal-a-935476.html (http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/how-the-eu-lost-to-russia-in-negotiations-over-ukraine-trade-deal-a-935476.html)
Yes. In Ukraine, there should also be an attempt to renegotiate debt, assuming the war ends, and they can get a handle on corruption. Without the latter, nothing will change.
Excellent post:
...nor did Tymoshenko become a billionaire selling pornographic videos to minors in Dnepropetrovsk.
Josef Zissels is the chairman of the General Council of the Euro-Asian Jewish Congress. He is sitting in the middle of a long table in the Ukrainian Restaurant in downtown New York. Before him is a bowl of borscht. As he eats, he shares his views of the current crisis in Ukraine with nine specialists and activists.
Zissels does not mince words. “There is no civil war in Ukraine,” he says. “There is a Russian aggression supported by local collaborators.” The war with Russia will be “long,” and Ukraine needs to construct a “militarist economy” like Israel’s. The Maidan Revolution had nothing to do with ethnicity, language, or religion. It was a “civilizational conflict” between those Ukrainians who supported Europe and those who supported Russia.
Zissels is 69-year-old former dissident with prison sentences to prove it. . . His dissident activity in both the Jewish and democratic movements began in the 1970s; in 1978, he joined the Ukrainian Helsinki Group. That same year, he received his first three-year prison sentence. In 1984, he got three more years. . .
Asked about the controversial Azov volunterr regiment, whose leader is a neo-Nazi, Zissels brushes off the implication that the entire unit shares his extremist views. Perhaps 30 or 40 do, he says, but the important thing is that all the volunteers, including the Jews fighting in Azov, are on the front lines. Their ideological predilections don’t matter, he emphasizes, as they’re all united in defending their country against Russia.
In a July 6, 2014, interview in Toronto, Zissels openly associated himself with the controversial term zhydobandera, which the Ukrainian Jewish oligarch Igor Kolomoisky popularized by wearing on a T-shirt. (The term is a conjunction of zhyd, a word that can mean both “Jew” and “kike,” and the surname of Stepan Bandera, a Ukrainian nationalist, that according to Soviet and Russian propaganda was a synonym for fascist. Hence, zhydobandera is the equivalent of both “Jew-Ukrainian nationalist” and “kike-fascist.”) According to Zissels, “Back in 1978 when they were imprisoning me, the KGB couldn’t understand me: ‘as a Jew he should be a Zionist.’ They had these stereotypes, but I became part of the Ukrainian Helsinki Group, a Ukrainian national group, and therefore back then I was already a zhydobandera.”
An article on Ukraine's economic future -
http://www.dw.de/ukraine-another-crisis-for-europes-bread-basket/a-18365197 (http://www.dw.de/ukraine-another-crisis-for-europes-bread-basket/a-18365197)
The Chinese deal may not have been the best way to do it because essentially what it did was cede control of an area of Ukraine to China. It was, however, a way of bringing Chinese investment into Ukraine. Simply cancelling, tearing up these agreements is not going to be a way of attracting more Chinese investment into Ukraine and it is not going to make a good impression on other potential investors.
The better half has been telling me for some time, long before that China deal, that agricultural land was the "only thing of value left to steal" in the country. I think the Yanukovych clan had already counted the money to be divided from that deal. So of course it has to be overturned.
In most Canadian provinces, foreigners cannot own agricultural land. There should be a similar restriction in Ukraine. Foreigners can lease it, but not own that land. It should remain a national asset for the local population.
Yes Greece has been and is a sloth on the Europeon economy but, since the last bail out in 2010 they made the austerity cuts and did as directed by the IMF. Now they find themselves in a worse predicament than they were in in 2010. This is why they rejected another bailout. Impossible terms and impossible to pay back. The IMF is nothing but another international central banker. It's not to help struggling countries. Like all central bankers they are there to suck the life blood and available funds where even they can get a foot hold, for profit.
http://www.globalresearch.ca/how-europe-played-greece-we-would-rather-deal-with-corrupt-but-obedient-leaders-than-honest-ones-with-ideas-of-sovereignty/5460420 (http://www.globalresearch.ca/how-europe-played-greece-we-would-rather-deal-with-corrupt-but-obedient-leaders-than-honest-ones-with-ideas-of-sovereignty/5460420)
What Ukraine needs is arms which could easily be supplied by a number of Western countries with credit extended to Ukraine by that country. What it doesn't need is a dance with the devil (IMF). I would wager the reason the arms haven't been supplied to date is because the central bankers haven't permitted it. They are looking to do business.
Yeah it's just a hunch but, why else would Obama, Merkel or any other Western leader not help Ukraine defend themselves? Ukraine is desperate and will take the help anywhere it can get it. That's the precise condition the money lenders want them to be in
Yes Greece has been and is a sloth on the Europeon economy but, since the last bail out in 2010 they made the austerity cuts and did as directed by the IMF. Now they find themselves in a worse predicament than they were in in 2010. This is why they rejected another bailout. Impossible terms and impossible to pay back. The IMF is nothing but another international central banker. It's not to help struggling countries. Like all central bankers they are there to suck the life blood and available funds where even they can get a foot hold, for profit.
,
Given the corrupt state of the IMF you purport
it is not a surprise that China (and its founding partners) have started it's own version of the IMF to even the scales a bit.
The US is 'concerned' about corruption of course...seems hypocritical, given your assessment.
Against my better judgement but I will engage you this conversation FTwell FP if it is really against your better judgement, it is ok, you don't have to engage...
,
Apparently I missed the spirit of your prior post by using the word 'corrupt'. We can just substitute the words 'a den of leeches and vipers' into my prior post then, so your words aren't misrepresented. My apologies.
,
Where did I state the IMF was corrupt? Please take your time. Corruption would be breaking the law, no? Who said they were breaking the law? What the IMF is, is a den of leeches and vipers, a profit driven central bank with the military might of the West behind it.
You somehow think a Chinese version of the IMF is going to be more humanitarian?
I can't respond to this, since my use of the word corruption was incorrectly read into what you intended by your earlier comments...regarding impossible payments terms.
Please explain where you divine this from my post?
well FP if it is really against your better judgement, it is ok, you don't have to engage...
Apparently I missed the spirit of your prior post by using the word 'corrupt'. We can just substitute the words 'a den of leeches and vipers' into my prior post then, so your words aren't misrepresented. My apologies.
Although phrased somewhat like a statement, you did put a question mark behind the post, making it a question.
I would suspect that China is going to protect and expand it's own interests, and perhaps some good will come from it. More humanitarian? We won't know how effective it is for a while. Competition for money yes, but with competition the end product usually improves out of necessity...so based in part on that, I conclude the Chinese infrastructure bank will be a positive for the world, but likely harmful to us.
Your thoughts?
I can't respond to this, since my use of the word corruption was incorrectly read into what you intended by your earlier comments...regarding impossible payments terms.
Fathertime!
Two thousand new police officers sworn in recently and pledged to not accept bribes. One out of five are said to be women.
Two thousand new police officers sworn in recently and pledged to not accept bribes. One out of five are said to be women.
REad the article below a few days ago. The new Ukrainian officers are US trained and are going to replace the current corrupt officers. If they act as good as they look, Ukrainians are in for a real treat.
Bad Boys, Bad Boys whacha going to do, whacha going to do when they come for you? (http://news.yahoo.com/ukraine-tackles-graft-us-style-police-force-163137761.html)
From Gucci to GI Jane
http://tabloid.pravda.com.ua/photos/559a7afe1e733/
(http://tab.img.pravda.com/images/doc/7/1/7139100-clipboard08.jpg)
New agreement expected tomorrow
http://izvestia.kiev.ua/article/84580
That tattoo on her forearm spoils it big time... :(
That tattoo on her forearm spoils it big time... :(
I don't like tats either, but as long as she is not corrupt............
For me, too. :thumbsdown:
Give it another 50 years, and soon women will have beards and men will be wearing high heels and mascara.
Russian ambassador invites Vilnius mayor to Crimea.
Reply: "I'll go when the Ukrainian ambassador invites me."
If this is how the "great leaders" of Europe are going to react because they don't like how Poroshenko and the Ukrainian government are moving, then there is no hope for Ukraine at all.
German Chancellor Angel Merkel and French President Francois Hollande took the rare step Friday of pressing Ukraine's Western-backed leader to ensure partial self-rule for the pro-Russian separatist east.
The blunt message from two of Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko's most important allies marked another sign of European impatience with fighting that still engulfs the ex-Soviet nation five months after the signing of a broad truce...
Read the full story here.
http://news.yahoo.com/ukraine-leader-warns-terror-threat-peaceful-cities-181025031.html
The blunt message from two of Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko's most important allies marked another sign of European impatience with fighting that still engulfs the ex-Soviet nation five months after the signing of a broad truce...[/i][/color]
It has caused me to wonder why the hell the USA taxpayers are providing so much funding for NATO and the European's are not. Should the US taxpayers be funding the defense of Europe, especially with the attitude many of them have toward the US?
How are you going to tax them?
Contributions to NATO are based on a formula. The US provides about 23% of NATO's funding.
The US provides about 23% of NATO's funding.
Source is here -
http://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/topics_67655.htm (http://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/topics_67655.htm)
Interesting story that is very relevant to Ukrainian situation. We keep hearing that it is impossible to change endemic corruption-here is a country that is tackling it and changing the culture.
A point I have made to many people in Ukraine is that you do not have to invent your own wheel-there are many examples of other countries faced with similar problems that have successfully found new directions.
The Little Anti-Corruption Agency That Could
After humble beginnings in empty offices, Croatia’s anti-corruption body became a crusading national force.
December 10, 2010, former Croatian Prime Minister Ivo Sanader was driving with his brother on an Alpine highway when Austrian police stopped his car and arrested him under an international warrant. Sanader had fled Croatia a day earlier, hours before his colleagues in parliament — still led by his own party — stripped him of legislative immunity. The Austrians extradited him back home, where he was facing charges of large-scale corruption. After a year-long trial, he was convicted and sentenced to 10 years’ imprisonment, shortened to eight and a half on appeal, for illegal kickbacks totaling 10 million euros. (In late July 2015, he was granted a retrial.)
CorruptionCaseStudy 5
At trial, Sanader’s graft was traced back two decades to what prosecutors described as “war profiteering” after the breakup of Yugoslavia, when Croatia fought to become an independent state. Prosecutors detailed all of Sanader’s illicit gains: a luxury villa, custom-made tuxedos, a €150,000 watch collection, and the historic art and suitcases of cash he stashed with his butcher before fleeing the country.
Remarkably, Sanader was not brought down by a popular uprising or a political witch hunt. Instead he was prosecuted by his own government, and more specifically by USKOK, Croatia’s anti-corruption agency, which had flourished under his rule. Far from the feeble bureaucracy it had once been, USKOK — a Croatian acronym for the “Bureau for the Suppression of Corruption and Organized Crime” — had by this point become one of the world’s most formidable anti-corruption outfits.
Over the last decade, USKOK has successfully prosecuted more than two thousand defendants, achieving a conviction rate of roughly 95 percent.USKOK has successfully prosecuted more than two thousand defendants, achieving a conviction rate of roughly 95 percent. Besides Sanader, defendants have included a former deputy prime minister, a former vice president, three former ministers, a top general, the ambassador to the United Nations, and senior tax officials. Just this year, USKOK arrested and indicted Zagreb’s mayor on multiple charges of corruption and abuse of office.
It would not be far-fetched to say that USKOK secured the credibility of Croatian law enforcement and helped clinch Croatia’s 2013 accession to the European Union. The story of its turnaround holds lessons for anti-corruption agencies worldwide, many of which are still struggling to live up to their mandates.
http://foreignpolicy.com/2015/08/07/the-little-anti-corruption-agency-that-could/?utm_source=Sailthru&utm_medium=email&utm_term=%2AEditors%20Picks&utm_campaign=2015_EditorsPicks_aug7
That IS quite a remarkable story.
From Gucci to GI Jane
http://tabloid.pravda.com.ua/photos/559a7afe1e733/ (http://tabloid.pravda.com.ua/photos/559a7afe1e733/)
Interesting story that is very relevant to Ukrainian situation. We keep hearing that it is impossible to change endemic corruption-here is a country that is tackling it and changing the culture.
A point I have made to many people in Ukraine is that you do not have to invent your own wheel-there are many examples of other countries faced with similar problems that have successfully found new directions.
The Little Anti-Corruption Agency That Could
After humble beginnings in empty offices, Croatia’s anti-corruption body became a crusading national force.
December 10, 2010, former Croatian Prime Minister Ivo Sanader was driving with his brother on an Alpine highway when Austrian police stopped his car and arrested him under an international warrant. Sanader had fled Croatia a day earlier, hours before his colleagues in parliament — still led by his own party — stripped him of legislative immunity. The Austrians extradited him back home, where he was facing charges of large-scale corruption. After a year-long trial, he was convicted and sentenced to 10 years’ imprisonment, shortened to eight and a half on appeal, for illegal kickbacks totaling 10 million euros. (In late July 2015, he was granted a retrial.)
CorruptionCaseStudy5
At trial, Sanader’s graft was traced back two decades to what prosecutors described as “war profiteering” after the breakup of Yugoslavia, when Croatia fought to become an independent state. Prosecutors detailed all of Sanader’s illicit gains: a luxury villa, custom-made tuxedos, a €150,000 watch collection, and the historic art and suitcases of cash he stashed with his butcher before fleeing the country.
Remarkably, Sanader was not brought down by a popular uprising or a political witch hunt. Instead he was prosecuted by his own government, and more specifically by USKOK, Croatia’s anti-corruption agency, which had flourished under his rule. Far from the feeble bureaucracy it had once been, USKOK — a Croatian acronym for the “Bureau for the Suppression of Corruption and Organized Crime” — had by this point become one of the world’s most formidable anti-corruption outfits.
Over the last decade, USKOK has successfully prosecuted more than two thousand defendants, achieving a conviction rate of roughly 95 percent.USKOK has successfully prosecuted more than two thousand defendants, achieving a conviction rate of roughly 95 percent. Besides Sanader, defendants have included a former deputy prime minister, a former vice president, three former ministers, a top general, the ambassador to the United Nations, and senior tax officials. Just this year, USKOK arrested and indicted Zagreb’s mayor on multiple charges of corruption and abuse of office.
It would not be far-fetched to say that USKOK secured the credibility of Croatian law enforcement and helped clinch Croatia’s 2013 accession to the European Union. The story of its turnaround holds lessons for anti-corruption agencies worldwide, many of which are still struggling to live up to their mandates.
http://foreignpolicy.com/2015/08/07/the-little-anti-corruption-agency-that-could/?utm_source=Sailthru&utm_medium=email&utm_term=%2AEditors%20Picks&utm_campaign=2015_EditorsPicks_aug7 (http://foreignpolicy.com/2015/08/07/the-little-anti-corruption-agency-that-could/?utm_source=Sailthru&utm_medium=email&utm_term=%2AEditors%20Picks&utm_campaign=2015_EditorsPicks_aug7)
I actually view the role of the U.S. and the EU in internal Ukrainian politics as net positives. They should be putting pressure on those politicians - no, you can't park your money outside the country, no, we won't fund your country without real reform.
If Putin’s proxies are less strategically daft than he is, they might push for reintegration (http://east.exch030.serverdata.net/owa/redir.aspx?SURL=OFG8Zyzqv4QmxPK6QxKP7j3stR32-PibYKlX3AIk53IF6jLITdbSCGgAdAB0AHAAOgAvAC8AbgBvAHYAbwBzAHQAaQBkAG8AbgBiAGEAcwBzAGEALgBjAG8AbQAvAGQAZQB0AGEAaQBsAHMALwAyADYAMAA4ADMAOAAvAA..&URL=http%3a%2f%2fnovostidonbassa.com%2fdetails%2f260838%2f) and thereby put Ukraine in the hot seat. As absolutely everyone knows, the enclave—and indeed the whole Donbas, even the part occupied by Ukrainian forces—has been and still is ruled by criminal clans, criminal oligarchs, criminal mafias, and—the latest twist—criminal separatists (http://east.exch030.serverdata.net/owa/redir.aspx?SURL=s0fkb6y9ndOJ7Yk2b5gybMOYsRnlwgZTIhz4kdSkfNcF6jLITdbSCGgAdAB0AHAAOgAvAC8AdwB3AHcALgBwAHIAYQB2AGQAYQAuAGMAbwBtAC4AdQBhAC8AYQByAHQAaQBjAGwAZQBzAC8AMgAwADEANQAvADEAMAAvADYALwA3ADAAOAAzADgAMgA1AC8A&URL=http%3a%2f%2fwww.pravda.com.ua%2farticles%2f2015%2f10%2f6%2f7083825%2f) and criminal warlords. Most of the population is unremittingly hostile to everything the new Ukraine stands for. The economy is in ruins.
If anyone knows how Ukraine is supposed to reintegrate this cancerous region without infecting itself in the process, please tell me. The challenge would be enormous even if Ukraine defeated the Russian separatists and occupied the territory. And Ukraine has not defeated the rebels. Nor will it ever occupy the enclave and impose its will without reigniting the war. Instead, Ukraine will have to reintegrate an unreconstructed and unreconstructable region. That’s what Minsk-2 mandates. And that’s been the declared goal of the Ukrainian political establishment. As they say, be careful what you wish for. It may come true.
There’s only one way for a potentially reintegrated Donbas enclave to wreak minimal damage on Ukraine. Kyiv should quarantine the territory and its thugs by giving it, and them, almost complete sovereignty within a confederal relationship with Ukraine. Neither Kyiv nor the enclave would interfere in each other’s internal or external political affairs. Both sides would pursue their own economic policies, refrain from subsidizing each other, keep all the taxes they collect, and pursue trade with whomever they desire. Each side would be responsible for law and order, speak whichever language it desires, remember what it wants to remember, and honor whomever it wants to honor. Other issues would be stickier (Would there be one army or two? Would the enclave pursue its own foreign policy? Would there be one president or two?), but not immune to creative solutions.
Russia and its separatist thugs—along with France, Germany, and the United States—would be hard-pressed to say nyet to such a deal, while Kyiv and Ukraine’s hotheads could claim victory and declare that Ukraine is whole again.
...US President Joe Biden recently told...
Jay, the video that you posted above on "Grow Ukraine" is demonstrative of why Russia cannot allow Ukraine to look to the West.. It is telling that Russia's much smaller neighbor outpaces Russia in so many areas. I understand Ukrainian corruption, but this is a reminder of how systemic corruption simply does not allow Russia to perform at such levels economically.
JayH,
"Despite those who are intent on painting any and everything Ukraine in a negative light..."
Just the facts, are all I presented...
"...it is clear now that progess is being made".
JayH,
"Despite those who are intent on painting any and everything Ukraine in a negative light..."
Just the facts, are all I presented...
The facts--I need to get a few "facts" correct. Are you the same krimster that got his arse handed to him on a plate by a Ukrainian girl?
How long ago was that exactly--7 years ago? 8?10?
You were last in Ukraine when?
Lets get a couple of those "facts" sorted before I comment further.
"Are you the same krimster that got his arse handed to him on a plate by a Ukrainian girl?Note--my questions are not answered.
How long ago was that exactly--7 years ago? 8?10?"
Well I have had SO MANY COUNTLESS Ukrainia deavotchkie putting their rookies on moy jhoppa and elsewhere that it's kinda hard to remember, so I'm sorry, but I have no idea what you're talking about, and obviously it has no relevance to the posts, you don't like the message so you try to shoot the messanger. Gee, I thought it was only Russians that did that, I guess not, at least they get it right...
The facts--I need to get a few "facts" correct. Are you the same krimster that got his arse handed to him on a plate by a Ukrainian girl?Are you the same Jayh that is 60 years old, and STILL unsuccessfully looking for the 'love of your life' in Ukraine? Are you sure you aren't just mongering around disguised as an earnest guy?
How long ago was that exactly--7 years ago? 8?10?
You were last in Ukraine when?
Lets get a couple of those "facts" sorted before I comment further.
Note--my questions are not answered.
There was no question about girls in general--but it was about "your" failed marriage - is that you?
Funny that you try the 'shoot the messenger defence" while attempting it on others !
My questions are being asked so I can get reply in context-do I need to spell that out for you?
That question has a ' YES or a NO answer.
How long ago were you last there-- pretty simple question that I want answered.
JayH,
"The facts--I need to get a few "facts" correct. Are you the same krimster that got his arse handed to him on a plate by a Ukrainian girl?"
seriously, you have me confused with someone else, for all my sexual innuendo, I have been happily married to a woman from Sevastopol for 16 years, our 17th anniversary will be this coming October 11, if you want to send a card...
I think you have me confused with ScottinCrimea, he WAS divorced from his UA wife. All ist Klarr??
Dude, you're making me kinda feel sorry for you now, c'mon now can't we all just get along?
Why can't we be friends .... ?????
Maybe you can find an article that says, "Japanese demographic survey found big drop in unemployed people in Hiroshima and Nagasaki in August 1945".
Krimster, you do know that only positive things are happening in Ukraine now....just read what Jay and Akmike say!!!!! While things are better ( barely?).....not all is rosy!!! What is that saying...as much as things change, they still stay the same:
http://news.yahoo.com/ukraine-lawmaker-seizes-pm-yatseniuk-rowdy-parliament-scenes-120415338--business.html
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-12-22/this-time-it-s-not-putin-ukraine-flirts-with-political-suicide
Jay,
This is in my opinion a failed attempt on your part to stifle a message you don’t want to hear by trying to shoot the messenger, while at the same time acknowledging it, how contradictory. That information I posted has about as much relevancy as to the date of my last visit to Crimea as it would to what color socks I have on.
Nothing substantial has changed in Ukraine, ACCORDING TO THE INFORMATION PROVIDED BY UKRAINIANS LIVING IN UKRAINE.
Jay,
Let me be clear about my experience in Ukraine. I lived there for 3 years, I bought and sold multiple properties there, commercial and residential, and I was the founder of the largest software development company in Crimea, I can speak (but not read/write Russian ‘horrosho) My children are bi-lingual, until last year my children would spend part of the summer in Crimea. I am on Skype every week with relatives in Crimea and Kyiv. I read constantly, most of the hard data I post here, comes directly from Ukraine, and is “of Ukraine” and “by Ukrainians” and “for Ukrainians” and is even written in what language-ohhh Ukrainian! ‘horrosho? none of what I posted here would have even a single character altered if I spent the last 10 years sitting in a “queterry” somewhere on the left bank of the Dnipro or up north in Chernigov on a dacha on the Desna. Nichy-Vo!
This is in my opinion a failed attempt on your part to stifle a message you don’t want to hear by trying to shoot the messenger, while at the same time acknowledging it, how contradictory. That information I posted has about as much relevancy as to the date of my last visit to Crimea as it would to what color socks I have on.
Nothing substantial has changed in Ukraine, ACCORDING TO THE INFORMATION PROVIDED BY UKRAINIANS LIVING IN UKRAINE. Ohhh, I have gray socks on, so I guess you can discount that then!
Man, however long you've been in Ukraine, it's obviously been TOO LONG, you've sailed over the edge and into the abyss, I know what this is like, it happened to me to, and when I started to beat up old ladies who cut in fron of me in line, is when I decided to leave, you should think about this...
As I wrote above-- some keep attempting to denigrate Ukraine-despite all the evidence indicating change and progress is real-despite everything .
For the fools who want to attack me personally-- read the thread topic.
....in addition it twas you that once again
I stopped posting political stuff here because their is only one view allowed....
Truth is The People in the USA, Russia and Ukraine...
Have more than this one official RWD view... Which is reinforced by a few posters...
I will be going back to ukraine in a few weeks... To bring my Russian-Ukrainian princess back to NY...
But to be honest.
During my 2 week stay in central ukraine... I did not meet one Ukrainian who was not ethnically Russian or Belorussian.
So it is natural they might have a different view on things than the Ethnically Ukrainian population in the west of the country...
So from my point of view,,,, I can say.. I don't think the "Times of Trouble" are over...
Poroshenko says Ukraine made considerable progress in removing oligarchs from power
http://www.kyivpost.com/article/content/ukraine-politics/poroshenko-says-ukraine-made-considerable-progress-in-removing-oligarchs-from-power-405911.html (http://www.kyivpost.com/article/content/ukraine-politics/poroshenko-says-ukraine-made-considerable-progress-in-removing-oligarchs-from-power-405911.html)
Does anyone have an accounting of how the aid and loans from IMF, EU, et al were spent?
Does anyone have an accounting of how the aid and loans from IMF, EU, et al were spent?
Does anyone have a better understanding of what is happening with regard to the sanctions against Russia? Something is brewing. Two days ago Secretary of State John Kerry said at the Davos World Economic Forum said, "... damaging sanctions against Russia could be removed within the next few months, provided Russia cooperates."
The articles I read talked only about cooperation in eastern Ukraine regarding the Minsk agreements. It mentioned nothing about Crimea. Financial Times gave more detail but still left open the issue of Crimea.
I thought sanctions also applied to the Crimea issue. If sanctions were lifted without resolving Crimea, does this mean the West is conceding Crimea to Russia? Maybe only some sanctions will be lifted?
My thought is that Crimea is still on the table and the West wants it settled quickly. It can be settled quickly only if Ukraine accepts Russia's annexation and receives compensation for the loss. Or Russia agrees to take the issue to the World Court.
What is the fair price to compensate Ukraine for the loss of Crimea? How about a guaranteed long-term supply of gas at greatly discounted prices if not free. That could be worth many billions to Ukraine and cost Russia relatively little.
The articles I read talked only about cooperation in eastern Ukraine regarding the Minsk agreements. It mentioned nothing about Crimea. Financial Times gave more detail but still left open the issue of Crimea.
I thought sanctions also applied to the Crimea issue.
What is the fair price to compensate Ukraine for the loss of Crimea? How about a guaranteed long-term supply of gas at greatly discounted prices if not free. That could be worth many billions to Ukraine and cost Russia relatively little.
I prefer the reality that 45 million Ukrainian people are deciding their own fate, they did so in a revolution that brought down a corrupt regime, now they are doing so democratically and peacefully,
Gator-- I am ignoring BillyB's once again useless comments-he needs to actually read some of the links posted to get some of his misguided conclusions adjusted.
You seem to have missed the part where US is not being asked to send frontline fighting troops.
If Ukrainians want Crimea back, they aren't going to get it done peacefully, they need to pick up a gun. After watching Russia take Crimea and enter into Eastern Ukraine, I wasn't impressed by their desire to pick up guns to change the situation. If America has a Pearl Harbor or World Trade Center bombed, we'd have all out war with the offenders. Many Americans have a point when they say "Why should we shed blood and help Ukrainians and Syrians when the majority of those people aren't helping themselves?" The only answer I can give them is because the bad guys will win and eventually we will eventually have to answer to a stronger foe.
You really are a dunce,
Hello? Anybody home?
US troops are in Ukraine. Poroshenko invited US troops into Ukraine. Obama didn't send those troops there uninvited. Those troops mission is to train Ukrainian troops simply because that's all Obama will allow them to do. Poroshenko would like more of course. During Poroshenko's visit to D.C., you don't think behind closed doors he asked Obama for American troops to help him regain his country? You're dreaming. You better believe he reminded Obama about the Budapest Memorandum and our responsibilities to protecting Ukraine's borders. Any leader of a country facing getting wiped off the map will ask for all possible help. It's common sense that you don't seem to get. Just because Poroshenko's not getting front line American troops doesn't mean he didn't ask. What are you going to tell us next? Assad didn't ask for Russian troops to fight in Syria when he went to Moscow?
Like I said BB-- start reading and get with program.You seem to have missed the part where US is not being asked to send frontline fighting troops. have a nice argument with yourself about it ! :)Now ........... connect......... the US is not being asked to send frontline troops NOTE that is in the here and now-- not 18 months ago. You and your ideas are stuck in another point in time.
the US is not being asked to send frontline troops NOTE that is in the here and now-- not 18 months ago.
The cooperation Kerry talks about is pertaining to the Minsk II agreement which doesn't ask Russia to return Crimea. If Russia abides by the Minsk II agreement, all sanctions will be lifted, included the sanctions that were applied during Russia's takeover of Crimea.
Not all sanctions will be lifted. The sanctions that were applied during Russia's takeover of Crimea will be left. Crimean sanctions are purely cosmetic, only a bunch of officials and bankers are feeling the effect. I would prefer if the pressure on russian officials and bankers will remain so that they're forced to keep their personal assets at home.
If sanctions were simply lifted, Russia gets off too easy.
There should be war reparations for aiding the rebels in the destruction of eastern Ukraine
Crimea. This to me is a greater injustice than eastern Ukraine. This issue should be tabled but not forgotten, to be reexamined by the world community if Ukraine can develop its democracy and economy.By other words, use Crimea to dangle a carrot in front of Ukraine to push her for implementing reforms. Pragmatic approach for world community :)
Nothing was progressing with the current sanctions so the West seemed eager to end this.
Anyway, Russia is spending monthly tens millions $ to support the people at Donbass and repair infrastructure. May be we can accept it as the reparations? :D
Needless to say, the war reparations are taken from war losers, so there should be the victory as the necessary condition. Russia had paid some reparations to Germany in 1918, to extract herself from WWI and win the civil war. Russia had suffered defeats over her long violent history of many wars, but paid the reparations only once, to Germany in 1918. It means the victory over Russia must be very convincing to force her on reparations.
Anyway, Russia is spending monthly tens millions $ to support the people at Donbass and repair infrastructure. May be we can accept it as the reparations? :D
By other words, use Crimea to dangle a carrot in front of Ukraine to push her for implementing reforms. Pragmatic approach for world community :)
Are you sure about this, Belvis? Do you have any information to back it up?
Are you sure about this, Belvis? Do you have any information to back it up??? I thought it's trivial information.
Two people in the rebel administration said Russia transfers 2.5 billion rubles ($37 million) for pensions every month.
It is alleged that virtually the entire civil state budget of the separatist territories is organized via funds for “humanitarian aid” from Russia. The Russian government coordinates these money sources.
I am amazed at the stupidity of Russians who somehow think that Kyiv should continue to financially support a region that has decided to declare independence.Yeah, stupid Russians are proposing Kiev to take back the rebel region under condition Kiev will
If you really love Russia so much, then yes, expect V. Putin to pay your expenses.Fair deal. He that pays the piper calls the tune. It seems Mendy has no objections to Putin will take Donbass.
After bombing the crap out of local population areas, show us the brand new apartments that Russia is building.Yes, I can :) Do you hear anything about the plan to build and rebuild over 100 houses in Debaltsevo? First of them are shown at youtube.
You can't --
rebuild over 100 houses in Debaltsevo
Belvis, you are quite the useless troll. I hope that Peskov pays you well.
Please post the videos you reference. I'm up for a good laugh.
Next, ... , so kindly post the videos of Russia rebuilding that facility while you're at it. You might want to have Dmitry film some video quickly because I'm waiting....
I'll put $100 American dollars, which is a big sum for a little player like yourself right now, that within 6 months of any resolution in Eastern Ukraine that he will come clean. He has too--it is the ego factor that is one of his greatest weaknesses.OK, let's bet on. Because we're mortal, and nobody knows when the resolution in Eastern Ukraine will come, I propose we turn on the timer from 1 Feb. 2016.
Are you up to the challenge?
OK, let's bet on. Because we're mortal, and nobody knows when the resolution in Eastern Ukraine will come, I propose we turn on the timer from 1 Feb. 2016.
Deal?
At what point should the West just give up on Ukraine?
Think of the patriots who died at the Maidan protests. Or the young soldiers killed in defense of SE Ukraine from the Russian-backed rebels. Returning to Putin would mean all died in vain.
Today Communist Vietnam is a success story.
They wanted to get rid of their ex president and corruption but decided to keep their local politicians. Big mistake. They should have rid them all and started over.
Vietnam is still one of the poorest counties in the world. They realize the benefits of Capitalism and tourism but that is not enough to be considered a success. If a guy went there, he may see a person crapping on the sidewalk and a dog eating the crap. People aren't the only ones hungry. Dogs are skinny and a fat dog is a dead dog. you'll see road construction where the heavy equipment is parked and men doing the labor. It's cheaper to hire hundreds of workers than to burn diesel in an excavator. You'll see men diving in a polluted river and bring up mud and sift through it for valuables. They hold their breath for over a minute at a time and do this work all day. Shoe maker Nike took some heat for paying their workers a dollar a day but that was good money to the average worker in Vietnam.
When my mom was returning home from a visit there, she asked the taxi driver to stop in a poor section of town and she gave each family in the neighborhood $10. One man dropped to his knees crying. He never seen so much money at one time and said God must have sent my mom. For him a miracle had happened.
My aunts and uncles came to America from Vietnam. They all became engineers and make around $100,000 each. Their kids recently graduate college and make $75,000 on up to start. They were fascinated by a remote control car I had when I was 13. They said if a person had that in Vietnam, they'd be arrested. They also told me They would not be able to reach their full potential in Vietnam. Unless they were rich or knew sombody in politics they would not be able to go to college. Some of my relatives help make nuclear fuel for our military and reactors and engineer planes for Boeing. In Vietnam, they wouldn't amount to much. Communism sucks.
It absolutely infuriates me when people try to glorify and romanticize communism.
Saudi Arabia invests in Ukraine more than $ 10 billionUnfortunately, 9.9 billion of that will go into someone's pocket. Have you ever been to Russia Jay? Do you know how much better life is here compared to Ukraine?
Unfortunately, 9.9 billion of that will go into someone's pocket. Have you ever been to Russia Jay? Do you know how much better life is here compared to Ukraine?
I don't see much progress being made in Ukraine, it's pretty much the same old song and dance. I've spent a lot of time in Ukraine, including the recent holidays, and life there for most folks isn't improving at all it's getting worse. My friends are eating porridge, bread and salami because its all they can afford much of the time. Their rent is $60 a month and they struggle to pay that. Even if all needed improvements are made, it will be a long time before life is good there for the average citizen.
I don't think you're doing yourself any favors by relying on media that doesn't paint a real picture.
Thanks for your condescending post.
Better than Ukraine? Wait a while and then tell me that.The damage being done to Russia by Putin is likely to change that soon enough.The Ukrainians stood up and faced a corrupt government-and demanded change. That previous corrupt government was by and large courtesy of Russia-- and if Putin had his way Ukrainians would be facing a lifetime of struggle. At least now-the struggle has a light at the end of the tunnel. No one has said it will be over in 5 minutes--and the real test in Ukraine is now for the government to hold it's nerve and take the country forward.
what? I don't understand, Timothy Ash lives in Oxford, England, which although it is a very charming place, is NOT Ukraine, I thought the only acceptable source of knowledge about Ukraine was exclusively from someone who lived there, has that policy changed, I don’t recall having received the memo. I’ll take a lack of response from you to mean you’re too busy watching porn to reply...
well thank you BC, all ist Klar!ja, alles klar :)
Warum unterhalten Sie Männer in deutscher Sprache auf dieser Website ?
weil es spass macht :)
weil es spass macht :)
an inescapable conclusion is that all of Ukraine’s problems are actually caused by Americans!
Yes, I agree it is fun. Here in USA, I like to go into German restaurants that employ young fräuleins and order in German. But usually, they only listen to me for a short time before they say . . . order in English!!
I always had trouble with the du/Sie dilemma
I like kraftwerke und rammstein (together would be interesting!!)Indeed.. :) but I think it i's 'Kraftwerk'??? IIRC.. of course may be wrong..
I dunno 'bout the spelling
I always had trouble with the du/Sie dilemmaBecause English lost thou some 300 years ago ;).
I'm not THAT old!!!Thine age dost not matter, thou knave ;D.
It is hard to add much to what is written in the following article, It is a good summary of the internal difficulties now face in Ukraine.So much hangs on getting this right-- and now.Every minute lost in enabling reform is dangerous to a democratic future.
A new government in Kiev has chance to reform, if it acts quickly
http://www.politico.eu/article/ukraine-press-the-reset-button-new-government-reforms-poroshenko/ (http://www.politico.eu/article/ukraine-press-the-reset-button-new-government-reforms-poroshenko/)
But probably not with the new revelations brought out today with the "Panama Papers"
Father Time,
First, that photo is copyrighted by Getty Images. Those folks bite with very sharp teeth when their work is used without payment. The mods might wish to remove it.
Second, I am amazed that the Daily Beast would post a photo from the Maidan revolution (this photo is from Feb 2014) while attempting to claim it represents protests now in Ukraine, over two years later.
Third, the small scale protests against failure to curb corruption started before the so-called Panama revelations, so for the Daily Beast to claim that they are a result of that release is dishonest.
Father Time,
First, that photo is copyrighted by Getty Images. Those folks bite with very sharp teeth when their work is used without payment. The mods might wish to remove it.
Second, I am amazed that the Daily Beast would post a photo from the Maidan revolution (this photo is from Feb 2014) while attempting to claim it represents protests now in Ukraine, over two years later.
Third, the small scale protests against failure to curb corruption started before the so-called Panama revelations, so for the Daily Beast to claim that they are a result of that release is dishonest.
Thankyou-saved me pointing out the ignorance of a post made without any comprehension.
Well the American owned and operated Daily Beast certainly loses some credibility regarding the deleted photo...they certainly represented the image as being a part of the new waves of protests.
FT, I am with you on that one. Often journalists will use a stock photo, and the Daily Beast does pay for rights to use such work. However, they were misrepresenting the situation.
I recognized the scene the instant that I saw it--I was on Maidan periodically and knew what it was. I also knew that the current protests, valid in my opinion, have not reached anywhere close to the same level of intensity. Even so, I checked the photo, and it was indeed from Feb 2014.
As for Poroshenko's selling of the Roshen chocolate business, his Russian assets have been seized and that makes it every difficult to find a buyer without taking a financial bath. I'd tend to give him a pass on that issue for now. However, if he has been hiding assets for the purposes of tax evasion, that would be another matter.
Dutch voters have overwhelmingly rejected a Ukraine-European Union treaty on closer political and economic ties, in a rebuke to their government and to the EU establishment.
The broad political, trade and defence treaty – which had already been signed by the Dutch prime minister Mark Rutte’s government and approved by all other EU nations, and Ukraine (http://www.theguardian.com/world/ukraine) – provisionally took effect in January.
Mendy,
His claim is that he put all of his assets in a trust that is handled by people other than himself.
1. Is this a requirement by Ukrainian law? I believe in the United States, our President is required to put assets into a trust.
2. Did he really do that?
3. If he did do that, why would there be push-back by the Ukrainian people?
Mendy,
His claim is that he put all of his assets in a trust that is handled by people other than himself.
1. Is this a requirement by Ukrainian law? I believe in the United States, our President is required to put assets into a trust.
2. Did he really do that?
3. If he did do that, why would there be push-back by the Ukrainian people?
Interfax and FT reports that he's had Rothschild's Trusts hired for some time working on this. The push back is from lack of information initially put out by the media. People assume the worst.
Now that it appears that he's being above board they are breathing better.
I note it is ok for others to make political posts-but not me or AkMike .
Tell that to the Guardian. ;D
I wouldn't call 32% an overwhelming vote.
Jone, he made a promise to put his assets into a trust. It seems that he may have done so with some, but Roshen Confectionery is a difficult case with assets being seized by a hostile nation. It seems that he tried to deal with that issue by creating a separate entity at an offshore legal and banking organization in order to protect himself in case of a full Russian invasion of Ukraine.Or a hostile takeover by other Ukrainians, it would not be the first time the president it overthrown... :rolleyes:
Prime Minister Yatsenyuk recently got a second (Canadian) passport.
Ukraine's so bad that Russia wants to buy a license to build Ukrainian 'Antonov AN-140"aircraft. . Aviacor, a Rusian company in Samara is now running out of the Ukrainian parts needed to build the An-140 there.
http://uawire.org/news/russia-wants-to-purchase-license-to-manufacture-ukrainian-antonov-aircraft
Yes, it's about a month ago it was shown.
http://www.airforce-technology.com/projects/antonov-an-178-transport-aircraft/
Fresh plane design? Hope that's true. :)
Based on designs by ethnic Russians. :-\ :-\
I don't think Antonov is building aircraft now. I don't know if they are even manufacturing parts.
Dethroning Ukraine’s Oligarchs: A How-To Guide
None of the country’s reforms can succeed while the oligarchs still rule.
Real reform does not stand a chance unless the tycoons suffer a severe blow to their wealth and influence. For that to happen, the following four steps must occur.
http://foreignpolicy.com/2016/06/13/dethroning-ukraines-oligarchs-a-how-to-guide/
Based on designs by ethnic Russians. :-\ :-\
I don't think Antonov is building aircraft now. I don't know if they are even manufacturing parts.
Posting this here --and not on the numerous other threads the current anti-Ukrainian troll has repeatedly mentioned this issue. Needless to say -he/it is wrong again as a positive result has been achieved on this issue.
EU accelerates visa-free travel rights for Ukrainians
The EU is to grant visa-free travel rights to Ukraine in a signal of support for a war-torn country
http://www.ft.com/content/ec3ffa46-acdf-11e6-ba7d-76378e4fef24
I am assuming Ukraine will never take responsibility for it's own failings and it will always blame someone else.
I am assuming Ukraine will never take responsibility for it's own failings and it will always blame someone else. The future of Ukraine and Ukrainian-sympathizers is to blame others for their past and never move forward.
Ukraine yesterday issued a prohibition for travel to Jean-Marie Le Pen from France. Ms. Le Pen indicated that the Russian annexation of Crimea was legal because the citizens voted for it in a referendum vote.
I picked up the story from Reuters but was unable to cite it because it came from a Twitter feed.
Le Pen is an outspoken advocate of far right positions. With this statement it is pretty apparent that she is attempting to curry favor with the Kremlin.
You're confused, jone. :-[ Jean-Marie Le Pen is MALE, not female. It is his daughter Marine who is the subject of the protest from the Ukrainian security service.
http://europe.newsweek.com/ukraine-marine-le-pen-ban-travel-crimea-russia-annexation-538340?rm=eu (http://europe.newsweek.com/ukraine-marine-le-pen-ban-travel-crimea-russia-annexation-538340?rm=eu)
You're confused, jone. :-[ Jean-Marie Le Pen is MALE, not female. It is his daughter Marine who is the subject of the protest from the Ukrainian security service.
http://europe.newsweek.com/ukraine-marine-le-pen-ban-travel-crimea-russia-annexation-538340?rm=eu (http://europe.newsweek.com/ukraine-marine-le-pen-ban-travel-crimea-russia-annexation-538340?rm=eu)
How dare you jump to conclusions! You don't know what gender Jean-Marie identifies with. He could identify as a woman or a cucumber. ;D
I don't disagree with him on letting the regions go.
I am totally against conceding any territory to Russia. Those promoting compromise are doing the Kremlin's work.The proliferation of stories,trolls posts etc has been at this for some time.The only purpose I can see it to soften opposition by suggesting compromise has wide support.
Some people just don't want to fight. A guy holds a gun to you which puts you at a disadvantage. He asks for your wallet. If you give it to him, are you compromising and doing his work?
Many people in Ukraine have already made the ultimate sacrifice in facing the guys with the guns.There is strong belief in what they are fighting for -- and it is a far more important issue than handing over a wallet.
As the article says "appeasement has never worked" -- a theme I wrote about a few posts earlier here.
I read, this morning, that Lugansk is changing currency. All transactions after March 1st are to be done in Russian Rubles. Additionally, the DNR has stated that they will begin nationalizing Ukrainian businesses (as if they haven't already) in direct retaliation for the blockade. Apparently the blockade is creating a significant impact on the already decimated economy of Donetsk.
Thinking to myself today, I was comparing the Russian position in Transnisteria compared with the situation in Eastern Ukraine. Should the Russians annex Eastern Ukraine, and Ukraine successfully shed the burden of maintaining a military operation, then Russia would be burdened with the now lifeless hulk of two territories which would drain the Russian economy even further.
Moldova is saddled with the prospect of Russia's military within its own country. Donetsk and Lugansk, as a part of Russia, would remove the need to accommodate the Russian military and supply a region that is mostly bankrupt.
I believe that Ukraine's future would be brighter without Lugansk and Donetsk. After all, most of the productive people have already left the regions and the people left are the hardcore, pro-Russian elements.
Just a thought.
I believe that Ukraine's future would be brighter without Lugansk and Donetsk.
How can the people come back together and be one country again?
The problem, as I see it, is the repatriation of the current occupants of the two invaded regions. How can the people come back together and be one country again? Why would Ukraine want them back?
Anyone who has looked at the voting demographics previous to Maidan will note that the greatest saturation of Russian leaning voters was in Crimea and Donetsk. If Ukraine became whole again, voting would once again favor alliance with Russia.
This war has polarized Ukraine in a way that alliance with the West never could. There are is now only a minority of Russian leaning voters in Ukraine. Future elections will focus on moving into a Western based economy.
There is not going to be any good solution for Ukraine. It is still corrupt and poor. But footing the bill for an ongoing war only creates a nation of beggars. If the opening is there for a settlement, pride must be subservient to pragmatism and Ukraine might seriously bargain for a solution that facilitates military support from the West if Russia violates Ukraine's borders.
That's what Putin wants everyone to believe. Even my wife started to believe that thinking the rest of Ukraine will get their way in voting in future elections, believe Putin will leave them alone, peace will come and Ukraine can move to the West. I asked her if peace came and Putin left them alone after Crimea. End of conversation.
I see more unity between Ukraine's East and West compared to America's North and South during the Civil War. Giving away land to Putin thinking Ukraine will gain security is a big mistake. I don't believe far East Ukrainians really want to separate from Ukraine because the majority aren't willing to give up their lives. They haven't come close to all out civil war.I work with 3 people who came from E. Ukraine. Two of them have nothing nice to say about the rest of Ukraine and want nothing to do with it. The hate runs deeply and in the long run I think jone's idea may be the most realistic plan of action. This war and its economic drain on the economy could drag on for years.
More than 500 members of the European Parliament voted for visa liberalization for Ukraine during a session in Strasbourg on April 6, the latest stage in granting Ukrainians the ability to visit most EU countries without having to apply for visas.Despite the best attempts of Russia to impede/prevent this it is finally happening. This issue was one of the catalysts to the removal of Yanukovych regime and the Maidan revolt.
Only a few more formalities remain. The decision is yet to be formally approved by the Council of Ministers and then published in EU’s Official Journal. The visa exemption will enter into force 20 days after publication in the EU Official Journal.
This is a good article on corruption in Ukraine, something that must be dealt with to secure a good future -
http://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/ukraine/2017-06-29/ukraine-s-stalled-revolution
This is a good article on corruption in Ukraine, something that must be dealt with to secure a good future -
http://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/ukraine/2017-06-29/ukraine-s-stalled-revolution
Why Europe should support a “Marshall Plan” for Ukraine
Why should Europeans allocate money for the renovation of Ukraine’s infrastructure? The proposal by the Seimas (Parliament) of the Republic of Lithuania for a “new European plan” for Ukraine based on the “Marshall Plan” may seem too ambitious and even useless for the European Union. But, in reality, Europe should help Ukraine not only for the benefit of Ukrainians. It should help Ukraine primarily for itself
The “Marshall Plan” provided enormous sums for the restoration of the European continent destroyed by war. But it was not charity. It was, in fact, genuine selfishness.
It is always interesting to read survey results and the potential conclusions...In this survey -- the areas defined as more Russian speaking are still less overt in being negative towards Russia.
Yes, JayH, it's very interesting - but it would give a much better picture if it included respondents from Donetsk and Luhansk. I realise that it may be logistically extremely difficult to do so, but any results without those regions included are naturally going to severely skew the responses.
I don't for a moment support the Russian annexation of Crimea or the invasion of Eastern Ukraine, but the youth in those areas are entitled to as much of a say, in a survey such as this, as those in the rest of the country. Finding a way to hear that voice is a project which is definitely worthy of someone's time and effort.
I have previously linked material from those areas.
As you say -- it is difficult to assess those areas --but note--the survey did include displaced people from those areas.
Going back some time -I posted material on Crimea that basically contradicted the general view ( and often stated here by people that should know better!) that Crimea had overwhelming support fro Russia . The problem back then is the sheer weight of the Troll army bombarding the world with a distortion.
Likewise ,recent surveys in the east have been done under great difficulty -- but- even so -- the support for Russia was not in a majority. That was not the same age group as seen above -- and that would be interesting to see if it did hold there.
Regardless --Ukraine has to get on with the future and as such ,plan for all possible scenarios.
As a rider -- I do not agree that there is any benefit in conceding any Ukrainian sovereign territory to Russia in any circumstance. There are many loyal Ukrainians stuck in Crimea and the Donbass.That is not a solution-- but an invitation for future trouble from Russia. Only a clear decisive message will ever be understood by Russia -- not the western wavering inadequate waffling.
This has been a battle for control of resources, there, really.. old scores between Oligrachs fiefdoms under a pretext of 'liberation' ..
Otherwise, I largely agree with your arguments. JayH and ML are both too anti-Russian to see or accept reality.
Actually --it is the other way around!
Eg -- look at my attitude to the damage Trump is doing to America -- your conclusions equal about the same as mine. Does that make you ( or me) anti American? The answer is no.
If Trump initiates an unprovoked nuclear attack on NK that results in millions of deaths -- as an American -- would you be feel culpable? If your attitude was a strong negative that would differentiate you from the likes of silly Billy who cheering Trump on,effectively encouraging him.
You are smart enough to understand my point here.
Actually --it is the other way around!
Eg -- look at my attitude to the damage Trump is doing to America -- your conclusions equal about the same as mine. Does that make you ( or me) anti American? The answer is no.
If Trump initiates an unprovoked nuclear attack on NK that results in millions of deaths -- as an American -- would you be feel culpable? If your attitude was a strong negative that would differentiate you from the likes of silly Billy who cheering Trump on,effectively encouraging him.
You are smart enough to understand my point here.
"Moby -- it is YOU THAT DOES NOT GET IT !!!! :cluebat:
ML has often made the point --when all Russians do "get" the idea that they are responsible --yes-each and every one of them that stays silent is complicit in the invasions and deaths of Ukrainians."
In the last couple of days a couple of interesting articles .
In particular --observations of where Ukraine now stands and is trying to go !
There are many complexities in trying to understand Ukrainian politics -- these 2 articles deal with some of the practical realities -- and in particular how far Ukraine has actually come in looking west.
How Eastern Ukraine Is Adapting and Surviving: The Case of Kharkiv
A pact between Kiev and the leaders of Kharkiv in eastern Ukraine has limited violence and ensured stability, but at the cost of keeping in place corrupt governing practices and forestalling reform.
http://carnegieeurope.eu/2018/09/12/how-eastern-ukraine-is-adapting-and-surviving-case-of-kharkiv-pub-77216
Putin, a former KGB operative, will have ruled for an uninterrupted 25 years, as president or prime minister, when he steps down at the end of his current term in 2024 (that is, if he respects the Russian constitution). Putin has no obvious plan for that transition.
After weeks of wrangling, Ukraine lawmakers Wednesday effectively blocked a powerful oligarch from regaining control of his former bank, potentially unlocking a $5 billion loan package from the International Monetary Fund.OR in other words, stealing has been made legal if done by the state.
With the economic crisis triggered by covid-19 threatening to slash Ukraine’s GDP by nearly 5 percent, according to the government’s estimate, Ukraine desperately needs the IMF funding to deal with the pandemic and reboot its economy.
The new law targets one of Ukraine’s most powerful oligarchs, Ihor Kolomoisky, co-owner of Privatbank, the country’s largest lender, nationalized in 2016 after $5.5 billion of its assets disappeared.
Court action by Kolomoisky to recover Privatbank is ongoing. But the law passed Wednesday — known in Ukraine as “anti-Kolomoisky law” — makes it impossible for him to regain control of the bank. The new law prevents former owners of banks that have been nationalized after insolvency from regaining their assets.
“Financially, he is losing at least $5 billion, which he hoped to receive as a compensation for Privatbank. However, politically it will mean in eyes of general public and political elites that he has lost control over Zelensky, which is a real blow,” she said.
Aslund said the passage of the law meant Kolomoisky would lose the bank but he would still have metallurgical factories, airlines, television network 1+1 and other assets. He also still has allies in parliament.
“This is hardly the end for Kolomoisky,” said Aslund, “because he has so many other assets, but it should be the end of his alliance with Zelensky, who is then turning to the West and decency instead.”
http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/ukraine-zelensky-kolomoisky-bank-imf/2020/05/13/3fbd2802-8571-11ea-81a3-9690c9881111_story.html (http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/ukraine-zelensky-kolomoisky-bank-imf/2020/05/13/3fbd2802-8571-11ea-81a3-9690c9881111_story.html)
How is the state stealing? Kolomoisky killed his partners, who, together, by force, stole state owned enterprises in the Dnepropetrovsk region. All the state is doing is taking back the proceeds from state assets Kolomoisky stole, then sold.While this may be applied for this case, it opens up the possibility of any private owned bank being nationalized without possibility for compensation.
Had Kolomoisky faced trial in a country with an actual rule of law, he'd be in jail right now, and his assets would have been rightly returned to the state.
This post was composed without the aid of google.
While this may be applied for this case, it opens up the possibility of any private owned bank being nationalized without possibility for compensation.
Yah, buttttt ...The last guys who did it in that way were Lenin and Stalin in order to get rid of the nobility. Worked well for them a bit less well for Ukraine.
For a generation these oligarchs have been kicking people around with no governmental opposition. Maybe its about time for them to have to consider that the government might actually have teeth when requiring them to toe the line.
Yah, buttttt ...
For a generation these oligarchs have been kicking people around with no governmental opposition.
While this may be applied for this case, it opens up the possibility of any private owned bank being nationalized without possibility for compensation.
The last guys who did it in that way were Lenin and Stalin in order to get rid of the nobility. Worked well for them a bit less well for Ukraine.
Remember in 2014, Mr K effectively ran his oblast (Dnipropetrovsk) like a fiefdom and funded a private army.
There were those, myself included, who wondered if President Z was back by Mr.K's might and money .. I STILL do not now if this is a 'stunt' or proof I was wrong ...given the strength of the Oligarchal hierarchy.
And Ukraine wants to copy that.....
Mmmm, no. Putin's Russia also renationalized industries, and the proceeds therefrom, that were stolen by oligarchs.
This post was composed without the aid of google.
And Ukraine wants to copy that.....
Have you taken an obtuse pill, John ?I am just not defending laws that are obviously made to steal.
The Kremlin 'nationalise' the assets of folks that do not 'support' the aims of United Russia and the President. They are busted for same by the ECHR ( European Court of Human Rights ) and ignore rulings of Arbitration Courts ..
Let's see if Mr.K goes that route and any findings ? ....
I am just not defending laws that are obviously made to steal.
I am aware that people here believe Ukraine is a country full of honest people that try to create a democracy and economy like the US or any Western EU country.Reality is that they are still in the mindset of right after the USSR where olicharchs and crime syndicates rule and a president is just a face they put on for the outside world.Please tell me that Ukraine is not a country divided by civil war, where people are getting by facing huge corruption and crime without hope for a solution.
Then IF that is the case, Ukraine is suggesting ado[ting a more western - accountable - govt and any 'wronged party' has the right to see non-Ukrainian opinion to which Ukraine is a signatory...Yup if a country is a mess Russia must be blamed for it. Not the people themselves.
I'm not sure if you're suggesting either myself or Boethius are claiming Ukraine is 'perfect' ... neither of us ( I believe) still know if President Z truly is representing the people or his pocket.
For sure, there are those who seek to maintain the money buys might and muscle..even in a region, but it must be clear that Ukraine keeps 're-booting' and trying to break free of the mould and should be supported, as such .
Ukraine is a mess - and that's EXACTLY what Moscow intended, then points a finger and says, do you want that ? .. I'm surprised you don't see that ?
From Georgia to Moldova and Ukraine , there's a pattern of frozen conflict, handing out RU passports .. that's what happens when Moscow planted eth Russians in Soviet times ...
I'm from N.Ireland .. Moscow learnt this trick from the British ?
Yup if a country is a mess Russia must be blamed for it. Not the people themselves.
The obtuse in you is strong, today !The one thing Moscow would like to prevent is American weaponry in Ukraine.For the rest they are content with sitting back and enjoying the show. :popcorn:
You know VERY well that Moscow ensures Ukraine's continued instability.
WHO suggested Moscow was solely to blame?
It never bothers me to be addressed as a 'russophobe' by ignorant folk, but I feel you MAY be heading that way and you are too smart for that approach ;)
The one thing Moscow would like to prevent is American weaponry in Ukraine.For the rest they are content with sitting back and enjoying the show. :popcorn:
1/ I saw Putin hold up Yankovich' hand in Maidan during the first ( and WELL dodgy ) 'elections' for President .. example one of Moscow trying to control / influence:deadhorse: :deadhorse: :deadhorse:
2/ Moscow has supplied GRU 'help' in Donbas, Crimea and Odesa, thanks ..with a success rate of 50%
3/ Then there'd the whisking away of Yankovich in the night ( GRU) ... to prevent his arrest for the raping of Ukraine's assets with the help of his sons
4/ Following breaking into armouries in Donbas and kicking off a real civil war in Donbas , the 'good work' of the GRU was in reverse
5/ During which time MH-17 was shot shot by the rebels with the 'help' of a Russian Airborne brigade's errant BUK system and missile
6/ Then we had the Russian army arrive on the Mariupol coast road from Taganrog ( when EVERYBODY in that city knew what was coming .. INVASION
I guess you weren't in Russia at that time ...
Yup if a country is a mess Russia must be blamed for it. Not the people themselves.
:deadhorse: :deadhorse: :deadhorse:
No problem, John.. Take your time and entertain us with ANY version of 'truth' to rebuff the Kremlin 'away games' in Ukraine.No need. Ukrainians are capable enough to f** up their own country.
No need. Ukrainians are capable enough to f** up their own country.
You total failure to acknowledge the constant 'help' from Russia in Georgia, Moldova and Ukraine is tellingThe constant pointing of those countries for teir failure to fix their own issues is even more telling.
The constant pointing of those countries for teir failure to fix their own issues is even more telling.
The constant pointing of those countries for teir failure to fix their own issues is even more telling.OK, seeing obtuse is your 'hobby' which nation is the common denominator in ALL the frozen conflicts.......?
That’s the problem with the moby’s of the World, they want the USA and NATO to intervene in the affairs of other nations but never consider long term consequences and why those countries are screwed up to begin with.
Canada's history is inexorably linked to Great Britain.
That’s the problem with the moby’s of the World, they want the USA and NATO to intervene in the affairs of other nations but never consider long term consequences and why those countries are screwed up to begin with.
Putin is right when he says we don’t need a World with only one power dictating to others, we need a more multi-polar world.
OK, seeing obtuse is your 'hobby' which nation is the common denominator in ALL the frozen conflicts.......?As Russia has been the most influential in these countries in the past, of course people will point there. It is like telling that Mexico and Canada constantly point at the US.
A: RUSSIA
That's what happens when you try to blame 'someone else', John ... One nation KEEPS cropping up
As Russia has been the most influential in these countries in the past, of course people will point there. It is like telling that Mexico and Canada constantly point at the US.
Perhaps read the post of Boethius which makes it clear that neither Russia nor the EU/US have more than a minor influence and the main reason is the corrupt political elite. While I do not blame the millions of Ukrainians who are tired of their politics and just wish to live a normal life,somehow they manage to fall every time for the golden mountains the new face promises.
I missed when the US or Canada have sent people into Mexico, issued them US or Canadian passports and claimed part of Mexico ( since the Alamo and Texas' annexation )Solve the issues in Ukraine then you might try the next step.Corruption is in every country from the top down, the problem arises when it goes too far down.
The Ukrainians seem to be lucky, other than having such an avaricious neighbour, in that they really do have democratic elections, now ..
I suppose you're going to 'defend' the stunts the RF employs to stop client s that WOULD win, or give VVP and his United Russia a run for their money .. ?
You DO realise the RF is corrupt from the top down ?
Solve the issues in Ukraine then you might try the next step.Corruption is in every country from the top down, the problem arises when it goes too far down.
Sighs,As seems usual you do not get it. I see both sides, but I do not choose a side here.Ukraine has what people call free elections, yet there still is a civil war (do not think that is over just because the news has stopped) and the people elected show time and time again to be no better than their predecessors.Opposed to that is a country where people realize that their government has its issues, but also that the effect for the country and population is positive in general.
The easiest internet search will reveal how ex PM and 'President ' Dmitry Medevdev was the fall guy when it was exposed who funds his lifestyle, given his declared earnings.. Oligarchs who get awarded national contracts and 'nationalised' assets of Oligarchs who dared to become Politically active.
Mr Peskov, who was hospitalised with COVID-19 has a watch that would take more a lifetime for the average RU citizen to acquire on a ( declared ) salary of c.$20k
The Russian Court system is not something you want to end up in, given if they want you off the streets , you'll be gone.
I love Russia, and it deserves better ... Ukrainians demand better and have at least got elections that are fairer
Now, I note you simply cannot deal with the FACT that Russia physically interferes in it's neighbours affairs - esp. when they are 'naughty' and do not accept Russia's advice.
I HATE that Estonia and Latvia treat eth RU folk as 'residents' and have no say in the running of the country, but all they need to do is learn a few basic phrases of the local lingo and agree the former USSR did 'bad things'..
I GO to these places and talk to the people .. they have NO problems with Russian people and in the EST / LV regions they even hanker ( sometimes) for control from Moscow.
Unlike you ( or so it seems ) I see both sides, but I watch the RU govt controlled media and see how they try to push how 'morally and monetarily' bankrupt former Soviet satellite nations are and the EU nations they might be part of ..
As seems usual you do not get it.
I see both sides, but I do not choose a side here.
Ukraine has what people call free elections, yet there still is a civil war
(do not think that is over just because the news has stopped) and the people elected show time and time again to be no better than their predecessors.
Opposed to that is a country where people realize that their government has its issues, but also that the effect for the country and population is positive in general.
Do not forget that I am in daily contact with people around the FSU on a friendly basis, not just the MIL.
You are correct that most Russians do not care about politics, especially when talking to Westerners who will just talk bad about their politics and country.
The eternal badmouthing of Russia makes Russians very wary of Westerners in general and English speaking especially.I could get you the opinion of about 20k people, but I am sure your own is much more correct.....to you.
Shadow fails by suggesting something that doesn't happen ( in my case )
Now, now, John do not go around suggesting that when I'm a guest of wifey and in the company of her friends that I do any of the things you MIGHT be suggesting ..
When I'm asked about VVP my std answer is that like my political leader and 'Trampu', best not ask .. THEY assume I'm a 'westerner' fed on fibs and there, the matter lies..
As time goes by, they chat about their dreams and regrets and will tell you the stories of corruption ...
I DRIVE in Russia, in my British registered car, I NEVER get stopped.. well I'm slowed down and waved on, but when driving in the RU one .. until they realise I'm not resident and don't have a RU driver's licence, they THINK I'm a human bankomat ..
This is patent nonsense.. spend time at a Dacha or by a river in the mountains or on the beach and westerners are STILL the subject of interest and opinions are sought .. We speak in 'Ringlish' ..Russians try to speak English and I 'Russian' ..
Russians can TELL I'm not Russian on hearing my accent and I do try to blend in ..
I have no idea were you 'hang out' when you were last in RU, but you are totally right ... my experiences differ from yours, (drastically) and I have lived / worked with Russians / Ukrainians / Georgians / Belarusians / Latvian 'Russians' since 2002 on a daily basis and travel widely in the FSU when 'permitted' ..
On Wednesday evening I will be with my RU friends and acquaintances via zoom and chatting about relationships ( differences between the west and Russia) There will be a Swiss guy who now lives in Russia and is a patriot ... these are the 'scariest' people I meet .. westerners who should know better and think w.Europe is full of gays and liberals
The difference is you are a Westerner trying to blend in. People in my circle have no idea I am not Russian.
The difference is you are a Westerner trying to blend in. People in my circle have no idea I am not Russian.
I'm not trying to 'blend in' .. I just don't speak.. THEN they know..
Now, apart from your new 'fan', Confed, who hasn't been to the FSU 'in a while' as he's 'too old' could you explain how you are SO out of touch with reality as to attitudes of most young RU people ?
Shadow doesn’t engage in braggadocio, unlike you, therefore he already has 100X your credibility.
You are correct that most Russians do not care about politics, especially when talking to Westerners who will just talk bad about their politics and country.The eternal badmouthing of Russia makes Russians very wary of Westerners in general and English speaking especially.I could get you the opinion of about 20k people, but I am sure your own is much more correct.....to you.
As seems usual you do not get it. I see both sides, but I do not choose a side here.Ukraine has what people call free elections, yet there still is a civil war (do not think that is over just because the news has stopped) and the people elected show time and time again to be no better than their predecessors.Opposed to that is a country where people realize that their government has its issues, but also that the effect for the country and population is positive in general.
The difference is you are a Westerner trying to blend in. People in my circle have no idea I am not Russian.