Ukraine-The Future

[Boethius]

I've noticed that ANY source, ANY photo that does not sing the praises of Ukraine is flawed and biased. It's OK, I get it.

You won't read that from me.

OK but isn't government merely a sum of it's parts?

If extremists represent less than 1% of the whole, what sum do they represent?

[lordtiberius]

If China ever wants to be top dog, they have to partner up with others before dropping USA. China and Russia have made many business agreements over the last year and they are bonding, especially with that $400 billion gas deal. Birds of a feather flock together. Russia and China both have ambitions to spread their borders. Recently a poll in Japan had China passing up North Korea for the first time as the major threat. Poll below shows Russians heavily favor China over America by almost 40%.


http://www.gallup.com/poll/173597/russian-approval-putin-soars-highest-level-years.aspx

The # 1 economy has its own problems.

http://www.wsj.com/articles/the-coming-chinese-crack-up-1425659198

[Steamer]

Please read this piece by an academic, Alexander Motyl.  He is a political scientist and Rutgers, and an acclaimed academic.  Disclaimer - he is an ethnic diaspora Ukrainian and at times, I find he is a bit nationalistic.  However, this piece, in terms of Ukraine, is accurate, IMHO -

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/alexander-motyl/putin-calls-ukraine-fasci_b_6600292.html

I read this. Comparing this to the US congress can you imagine how horrified people would be if you told them the current congress "only has 38 Klansmen and 7 Neo Nazis" out of 450. I wouldn't feel good.

[mendeleyev]

I read this. Comparing this to the US congress can you imagine how horrified people would be if you told them the current congress "only has 38 Klansmen and 7 Neo Nazis" out of 450. I wouldn't feel good.

Steamer, no offense my friend, but you obviously have yet to be introduced around the Russian Duma. 

[Steamer]

Steamer, no offense my friend, but you obviously have yet to be introduced around the Russian Duma. 

I have no doubt the Duma has many bad characters but (no offence to you either) we were discussing the bad characters in the Rada which I am being told are of no consequence. They do however take nice group photos with US officials.

[Natali_Tsymbalyuk]

Very good and dark analysis of the situation that will be in Ukraine after the war
http://www.odnako.org/blogs/za-devyatim-krugom-ada-kakie-peremeni-zhdut-ukrainskoe-obshchestvo-posle-voyni/

[Steamer]

You won't read that from me.

But it is true.
Tell me then what source you WOULD accept as unbiased or not flawed and understand that your sources are subject to the same scrutiny.

[Boethius]

I read this. Comparing this to the US congress can you imagine how horrified people would be if you told them the current congress "only has 38 Klansmen and 7 Neo Nazis" out of 450. I wouldn't feel good.

There were Klansman elected to the Senate, and at least one former KKK member was elected president (and was a good one, at that), and outright racists (Thurmond, Helms, Barr, Lott) whose statements had zero effect on their reelections.  Furthermore, some  Tea Party support is based on the colour of Obama's skin, rather than some deep commitment to smaller government.  So, perhaps you shouldn't feel so good already.

[Boethius]

But it is true.
Tell me then what source you WOULD accept as unbiased or not flawed and understand that your sources are subject to the same scrutiny.

The Motyl article I cited.  Most Western media, which is not biased. 

[Boethius]

I have no doubt the Duma has many bad characters but (no offence to you either) we were discussing the bad characters in the Rada which I am being told are of no consequence. They do however take nice group photos with US officials.

No, bad characters is a different issue.  Most of the characters in the Rada are, IMHO, bad characters. 
My question was specifically, who are the "fascists in control" in Kyiv, to such a degree that invasion of Eastern Ukraine was necessary?  No one who has put forward that narrative can point to all these evil fascists who are controlling the government and putting Russia at risk.

[Steamer]

There were Klansman elected to the Senate, and at least one former KKK member was elected president (and was a good one, at that), and outright racists (Thurmond, Helms, Barr, Lott) whose statements had zero effect on their reelections.  Furthermore, some  Tea Party support is based on the colour of Obama's skin, rather than some deep commitment to smaller government.  So, perhaps you shouldn't feel so good already.

All either dead or retired which is farther away from govt. activities than Parubiy,Tyagnibok and Yarosh who were good enough to pose for photos with John Mccain and Nuland.

[Steamer]

 Most Western media, which is not biased.

You must be joking. Western media is merely the US propaganda dept.

[Steamer]

No, bad characters is a different issue.  Most of the characters in the Rada are, IMHO, bad characters. 
My question was specifically, who are the "fascists in control" in Kyiv, to such a degree that invasion of Eastern Ukraine was necessary? No one who has put forward that narrative can point to all these evil fascists who are controlling the government and putting Russia at risk.

I see that you are adding in some extra qualifiers; enough to change the subject.

[msmobyone]

Hi Natasha

welcome to the site.

You will find that many men regard your beautiful city as a 'bad' place to look for a wife ((((

This is probably because there have been a few tv documentaries showing men - who have no chance to find a good women at home believe they could arrive in Odessa and a line will form - as they are from the west )))))

There are tours organised - many of which feature Odessa - and women are invited to meet these men.

It would be great if we could try to keep the politics out of threads relating to relationships







 

[Boethius]

I see that you are adding in some extra qualifiers; enough to change the subject.

No.  Here is my question yesterday -

I ask those who hold that notion to be true to please name all these fascists
with real power.

In the past, I have asked who the fascists are who are running Kyiv.

[Boethius]

You must be joking. Western media is merely the US propaganda dept.

Really?  So tell me what the Western media has reported that is grossly inaccurate. I mean reputable papers, such as the NYT, the Washington Post, The Guardian, The Independent, The National Post, and Vice News.

[Boethius]

All either dead or retired which is farther away from govt. activities than Parubiy,Tyagnibok and Yarosh who were good enough to pose for photos with John Mccain and Nuland.

Irrelevant.  You posted Americans would be shocked at such characters in government.   They weren't, and Steve Scalise proves they are not now. 
There are more fascists in the governments of Russia and every EU country but for the UK, than there are in Ukraine.  So why aren't all those countries being invaded?  Or, at the very least, being held to the same standard as Ukraine?

[Boethius]

Hi Natasha

welcome to the site.

You will find that many men regard your beautiful city as a 'bad' place to look for a wife ((((

This is probably because there have been a few tv documentaries showing men - who have no chance to find a good women at home believe they could arrive in Odessa and a line will form - as they are from the west )))))

There are tours organised - many of which feature Odessa - and women are invited to meet these men.

It would be great if we could try to keep the politics out of threads relating to relationships

Or relationships out of threads relating to politics.

[ML]

Putin and his brainwashed subjects are fond of referring to Ukraine and it's citizens as Fascists to cast disrespect upon Ukraine; and all because a tiny minority party once elected to Ukraine's parliament had some Fascist rhetoric.

Let's examine what Fascism means, and think which leader and country really best exemplifies the name.

It is Russia that has embraced Fascism, not Ukraine

= = = = = = =

Fascism started off as a political movement in Italy during World War I and spread across Europe during the 1920s and 1930s. Italy’s Benito Mussolini, Germany’s Adolf
Hitler and Spain’s Franco are all considered parts of the fascist movement.

At its core, fascism was a reaction to the spread of Western liberal democracy and its values. While Western democracies in France, Britain or the U.S. were based on individual freedom and small government, fascists emphasized the national collective.

They sought a strong state with a powerful army, headed by a dictator who controlled most aspects of life, including press, arts, and sports. Their nationalist myth was rooted in history.

Mussolini saw himself as successor to the Roman emperors, and Hitler to the Germanic leaders and medieval German emperors.

Fascists despised what they perceived as decadent Western values, including everything from democracy, press freedom, expressionist art to homosexuality.

See the complete article here:

http://www.worldpolicy.org/blog/2014/05/12/why-it%E2%80%99s-time-start-calling-putin-fascist

[The Natural]

Or relationships out of threads relating to politics.

Boe, you should do more romancing and less quarreling 

[Boethius]

Boe, you should do more romancing and less quarreling 

The quarrelling here gets rid of all my natural aggression, so I am romantic with the better half.     

[cc3]

Very good and dark analysis of the situation that will be in Ukraine after the war
http://www.odnako.org/blogs/za-devyatim-krugom-ada-kakie-peremeni-zhdut-ukrainskoe-obshchestvo-posle-voyni/

Muscovite trash propaganda. Tell me, Natasha, are you a Putin and moskali supporter?

[Boethius]

I didn't read it that way.  I didn't agree with all of it, but there is some reality to what he wrote.
 
Things are very bad in most of Ukraine right now, as anyone who  has family there can attest to.  In Kyiv, there are hundreds of thousands of refugees, and unemployment is very high.  It is not a pretty time. 

[mendeleyev]

Steamer:

but (no offence to you either) we were discussing the bad characters in the Rada which I am being told are of no consequence.

But it was you who brought the US Congress into the debate. So, is it really only about the Rada?

Bo is correct, the bad boys you mention, are of no consequence in Ukraine.

As far as tea party, I'd love to join. I like many of their positions. That being said, I'm not sure what part of not liking someone's political beliefs makes me a racist. The business partner in the Smooth Jazz radio station we own is black, and I'm sure that he'd love to hear how racist I am!  He voted for Obama twice, but that hasn't stopped our friendship of almost two decades.

[Belvis]

My question was specifically, who are the "fascists in control" in Kyiv, to such a degree that invasion of Eastern Ukraine was necessary?

OK, you have asked this question so many times so that I feel obliged to answer it.
"Fascist in control in Kiev" was never used by high Russian  officials. This word is widely used in pro-Russian rebel sources, and was used in Russian media in times when Ukrainian  nationalists were in power in Kiev. The last is easy explainable, in Russia people who glorify Bandera are equal to Nazi supporters, and I agree with such attitude if not to go deeper to the scientific or historic definition of fashism.

   Why matching of Kiev govenment with fashists meets with a generous response at Donbass? Because people at Donbass see the attitude of men in power in Kiev towards Donbass. I'll specify some facts which were taken close to hearts at Donbass.
First, Odessa was turning point in the conflict. Death of a few tens men was justified by some Ukrainian officials  with convincing claim that victims were pro-Russian separatists. Nobody was sentenced in Odessa fire so far.
     Close aide to Kolomoiski, Boris Filatov, had written at his Facebook page famous phrase about pro-Russians: Promise them whatever they want, we'll hang them later. Filatov is not Ukrainian jornalist (that would be natural), he is a high rank official in key Ukrainian region.
    Prime minister of Ukraine, Arseny Yatsenyuk has referred to pro-Russians at Donbass as subhuman:

They lost their lives because they defended men and women, children and the elderly who found themselves in a situation facing a threat to be killed by invaders and sponsored by them subhumans. First, we will commemorate the heroes by wiping out those who killed them and then by cleaning our land from the evil.

Word "subhuman" is echoing the racist propaganda of Nazism as well as "cleaning our land". Though one can argue about correct translation of Ukrainian word нелюды into subhuman, prime minister should be more careful in wording concerning his own citizens.
    Even more with Yatsnyuk, who recently associated Ukraine with Germany in WWII in sense that both countries falled victims to Soviet assault.
    Some of Ukrainians are fighting at Donbass under swastika. There are Russian nazis at Donbass too fighting among rebels, however there is a big difference. Swastika and Nazi attributes are outlawed in Russia, Nazi supporters are prosecuted, while Ukrainians have got tolerable attitude to them.
    All of this creates the emotional background at Donbass where thousands were killed by Ukrainian army. Rebels see the enemy and labeled them as fashists without turning to Wikipedia to know the right meaning of this word.