Ukraine-The Future

[msmob]

I am just not defending laws that are obviously made to steal.

Then IF that is the case, Ukraine is suggesting ado[ting a more western - accountable - govt and any 'wronged party' has the right to see non-Ukrainian opinion to which Ukraine is a signatory...

I am aware that people here believe Ukraine is a country full of honest people that try to create a democracy and economy like the US or any Western EU country.Reality is that they are still in the mindset of right after the USSR where olicharchs and crime syndicates rule and a president is just a face they put on for the outside world.Please tell me that Ukraine is not a country divided by civil war, where people are getting by facing huge corruption and crime without hope for a solution.

I'm not sure if you're suggesting either myself or Boethius are claiming Ukraine is 'perfect' ... neither of us ( I believe) still know if President Z truly is representing the people or his pocket.

For sure, there are those who seek to maintain the money buys might and muscle..even in a region, but it must be clear that Ukraine keeps 're-booting' and trying to break free of the mould and should be supported, as such .

Ukraine is a mess - and that's EXACTLY what Moscow intended, then points a finger and says, do you want that ? ..  I'm surprised you don't see that ?

From Georgia to Moldova and Ukraine , there's a pattern of frozen conflict, handing out RU passports .. that's what happens when Moscow planted eth Russians in Soviet times ...

I'm from N.Ireland .. Moscow learnt this trick from the British ? 

[Shadow]

Then IF that is the case, Ukraine is suggesting ado[ting a more western - accountable - govt and any 'wronged party' has the right to see non-Ukrainian opinion to which Ukraine is a signatory...

I'm not sure if you're suggesting either myself or Boethius are claiming Ukraine is 'perfect' ... neither of us ( I believe) still know if President Z truly is representing the people or his pocket.

For sure, there are those who seek to maintain the money buys might and muscle..even in a region, but it must be clear that Ukraine keeps 're-booting' and trying to break free of the mould and should be supported, as such .

Ukraine is a mess - and that's EXACTLY what Moscow intended, then points a finger and says, do you want that ? ..  I'm surprised you don't see that ?

From Georgia to Moldova and Ukraine , there's a pattern of frozen conflict, handing out RU passports .. that's what happens when Moscow planted eth Russians in Soviet times ...

I'm from N.Ireland .. Moscow learnt this trick from the British ?

Yup if a country is a mess Russia must be blamed for it. Not the people themselves.

[msmob]

Yup if a country is a mess Russia must be blamed for it. Not the people themselves.

The obtuse in you is strong, today !

You know VERY well that Moscow ensures Ukraine's continued instability. 

WHO suggested Moscow was solely to blame?

It never bothers me to be addressed as a 'russophobe' by ignorant folk, but I feel you MAY be heading that way and you are too smart for that approach

[Shadow]

The obtuse in you is strong, today !

You know VERY well that Moscow ensures Ukraine's continued instability. 

WHO suggested Moscow was solely to blame?

It never bothers me to be addressed as a 'russophobe' by ignorant folk, but I feel you MAY be heading that way and you are too smart for that approach

The one thing Moscow would like to prevent is American weaponry in Ukraine.For the rest they are content with sitting back and enjoying the show. 

[msmob]

The one thing Moscow would like to prevent is American weaponry in Ukraine.For the rest they are content with sitting back and enjoying the show. 

1/ I saw Putin hold up Yankovich' hand in Maidan during the first ( and WELL dodgy ) 'elections' for President .. example one of Moscow trying to control / influence

2/ Moscow has supplied GRU 'help' in Donbas, Crimea and Odesa, thanks ..with a success rate of 50%

3/ Then there'd the whisking away of Yankovich in the night ( GRU)  ... to prevent his arrest for the raping of Ukraine's assets with the help of his sons

4/ Following breaking into armouries in Donbas and kicking off a real civil war in Donbas , the 'good  work' of the GRU was in reverse

5/ During which time MH-17 was shot shot by the rebels with the 'help' of a Russian Airborne brigade's errant BUK system and missile

6/ Then we had the Russian army arrive on the Mariupol coast road from Taganrog ( when EVERYBODY in that city knew what was coming .. INVASION

I guess you weren't in Russia at that time ...

[Shadow]

1/ I saw Putin hold up Yankovich' hand in Maidan during the first ( and WELL dodgy ) 'elections' for President .. example one of Moscow trying to control / influence

2/ Moscow has supplied GRU 'help' in Donbas, Crimea and Odesa, thanks ..with a success rate of 50%

3/ Then there'd the whisking away of Yankovich in the night ( GRU)  ... to prevent his arrest for the raping of Ukraine's assets with the help of his sons

4/ Following breaking into armouries in Donbas and kicking off a real civil war in Donbas , the 'good  work' of the GRU was in reverse

5/ During which time MH-17 was shot shot by the rebels with the 'help' of a Russian Airborne brigade's errant BUK system and missile

6/ Then we had the Russian army arrive on the Mariupol coast road from Taganrog ( when EVERYBODY in that city knew what was coming .. INVASION

I guess you weren't in Russia at that time ...

[BillyB]

Yup if a country is a mess Russia must be blamed for it. Not the people themselves.

Individuals and nations are to be blamed. Smaller nations are always influence by their bigger neighbors to some degree. If Canada and Ukraine swapped locations, should we expect the same results in those nations we see today?

[msmob]

No problem, John.. Take your time and entertain us with ANY version of 'truth' to rebuff the Kremlin 'away games' in Ukraine.

[Shadow]

No problem, John.. Take your time and entertain us with ANY version of 'truth' to rebuff the Kremlin 'away games' in Ukraine.

No need. Ukrainians are capable enough to f** up their own country.

[msmob]

No need. Ukrainians are capable enough to f** up their own country.

You total failure to acknowledge the constant 'help' from Russia in Georgia, Moldova and Ukraine is telling

[Shadow]

You total failure to acknowledge the constant 'help' from Russia in Georgia, Moldova and Ukraine is telling

The constant pointing of those countries for teir failure to fix their own issues is even more telling.

[Confederate]

The constant pointing of those countries for teir failure to fix their own issues is even more telling.

That’s the problem with the moby’s of the World, they want the USA and NATO to intervene in the affairs of other nations but never consider long term consequences and why those countries are screwed up to begin with.

Putin is right when he says we don’t need a World with only one power dictating to others, we need a more multi-polar world.

[krimster2]

"Putin is right when he says we don’t need a World with only one power dictating to others, we need a more multi-polar world."

yeah, too bad that sentiment doesn't apply within Russia, right?
do you remember the Soviet Union? you were young then, and you don't read much, so you're probably not too familiar with its history
but Putin remembers, and this is what he has in mind for the future, this version of multi-polar
how many times have you visited Russia/Ukraine?
I still have houses there and I have Permanent Residence for Russia and used to have for Ukraine
so I'm more than just a LITTLE familiar...

[Boethius]

Ukraine's poor government has little to do with Russia.  It is the fault of the Ukrainian political elite.  Their attitude is not what is best for the country, it's about what is best for them.  This has been the case for centuries, going back to Izyaslav I.  Since that time, Ukraine has never been ruled by power structures that cared more for the country and its people than they did about their own power and wealth.  The current crop of political elite (I mean all those since independence) took power to line their own pockets, hide their wealth abroad, and either live with immense power in Ukraine, or escape abroad with their stolen wealth.

Both Russia and the US have interfered in Ukraine for their own purposes.  But, I believe that these are relatively minor in terms of how the average Ukrainian lives, when compared to the lack of change among the political elite.  They are the oligarchs, the ones stealing the wealth of the nation, and subjecting millions to living hand to mouth existences.

Today in Ukraine, you will be jailed if you criticize Kyiv (I mean the federal government) openly, particularly on issues related to Donbas or Crimea.

Unlike Shadow, I don't blame the average Ukrainian citizen, because they are relatively powerless in all of this.  A time may come when they will have had enough, and will rise up, but mostly, they are now just trying to survive.

Suggesting if Ukraine and Canada switched places, the results would be reversed (i.e., Ukraine would have Canada's economy, Canada, Ukraine's) is inane.  Canada's history is inexorably linked to Great Britain.  No matter what you want to say about Great Britain, it created a fantastic system for the rule of law, and relatively good governance.  It doesn't work as well in Canada as it does in the UK, because of our size and the perversions of party whips in Canada, but it is still better than most systems of governance.  That is what makes Canada relatively successful.   Until the mid 19th century, Great Britain, not the US, was Canada's largest trading partner, and Canada's rule of law was strong then, too. Ukraine, OTOH, has never had a rule of law. 

This post was composed without the aid of google.

[msmob]

The constant pointing of those countries for teir failure to fix their own issues is even more telling.

OK, seeing obtuse is your 'hobby' which nation is the common denominator in ALL the frozen conflicts.......?

A: RUSSIA

That's what happens when you try to blame 'someone else', John ... One nation KEEPS cropping up

[Boethius]

That’s the problem with the moby’s of the World, they want the USA and NATO to intervene in the affairs of other nations but never consider long term consequences and why those countries are screwed up to begin with.

Where did the mobys of the world say they want the USA or NATO to intervene in the affairs of other nations?


This post was composed without the aid of google (no matter what Faux Pas alleges).

[BillyB]

  Canada's history is inexorably linked to Great Britain. 

Ukraine is tied to Russia/USSR. Switch places and I doubt Canada would be where it is today and I would bet Ukraine would be much better off since there would be no oligarchs.

[Boethius]

Sure, if Scots had settled Ukraine en masse, and it had been governed by a British queen/king.


Not all of Ukraine was tied to Russia.  Half of Ukraine, for much of its history, was under Polish, Romanian, or Austro-Hungarian rule. Western Ukraine was only under Soviet influence for 40 odd years.


This post was composed without the aid of google.

[msmob]

That’s the problem with the moby’s of the World, they want the USA and NATO to intervene in the affairs of other nations but never consider long term consequences and why those countries are screwed up to begin with.

Boethius has already corrected you, but to push this error of yours home..

1/ Tell us why being a NATO member was a aim of Ukraine by the maj. of people or political leaders ? .. That's right ... AFTER Moscow militarily took control of Crimea

2/ IF you know anything about the region, you'd have realised how DAFT that claim was.

Putin is right when he says we don’t need a World with only one power dictating to others, we need a more multi-polar world.

..WHAT has this got  to do with his 'away games' in Ukraine and other neighbouring nations ?   

Does that mean Russia can support conflict in those nations, bite off chunks and hand out RU passports ( including the murder of civilians overflying a war they 'sponsored' )   and we should 'suck it up' ?

[Shadow]

OK, seeing obtuse is your 'hobby' which nation is the common denominator in ALL the frozen conflicts.......?

A: RUSSIA

That's what happens when you try to blame 'someone else', John ... One nation KEEPS cropping up

As Russia has been the most influential in these countries in the past,  of course people will point there. It is like telling that Mexico and Canada constantly point at the US.
Perhaps read the post of Boethius which makes it clear that neither Russia nor the EU/US have more than a minor influence and the main reason is the corrupt political elite. While I do not blame the millions of Ukrainians who are tired of their politics and just wish to live a normal life,somehow they manage to fall every time for the golden mountains the new face promises.

[msmob]

As Russia has been the most influential in these countries in the past,  of course people will point there. It is like telling that Mexico and Canada constantly point at the US.
Perhaps read the post of Boethius which makes it clear that neither Russia nor the EU/US have more than a minor influence and the main reason is the corrupt political elite. While I do not blame the millions of Ukrainians who are tired of their politics and just wish to live a normal life,somehow they manage to fall every time for the golden mountains the new face promises.

I missed when the US or Canada have sent people into Mexico, issued them US or Canadian passports and claimed part of Mexico ( since the Alamo and Texas' annexation )

The Ukrainians seem to be lucky, other than having such an avaricious neighbour, in that they really do have democratic elections, now ..


I suppose you're going to 'defend' the stunts the RF employs to stop client s that WOULD win, or give VVP and his United Russia a run for their money .. ?

You DO realise the RF is corrupt from the top down ?

[Shadow]

I missed when the US or Canada have sent people into Mexico, issued them US or Canadian passports and claimed part of Mexico ( since the Alamo and Texas' annexation )

The Ukrainians seem to be lucky, other than having such an avaricious neighbour, in that they really do have democratic elections, now ..


I suppose you're going to 'defend' the stunts the RF employs to stop client s that WOULD win, or give VVP and his United Russia a run for their money .. ?

You DO realise the RF is corrupt from the top down ?

Solve the issues in Ukraine then you might try the next step.Corruption is in every country from the top down, the problem arises when it goes too far down.

[msmob]

Solve the issues in Ukraine then you might try the next step.Corruption is in every country from the top down, the problem arises when it goes too far down.

Sighs,

The easiest internet search will reveal how ex PM and 'President '  Dmitry Medevdev  was the fall guy when it was exposed who funds his lifestyle, given his declared earnings.. Oligarchs who get awarded national contracts and 'nationalised' assets of Oligarchs who dared to become Politically active.

Mr Peskov, who was hospitalised with COVID-19 has a watch that would take more a lifetime for the average RU citizen to acquire on a ( declared ) salary of c.$20k

The Russian Court system is not something you want to end up in, given if they want you off the streets , you'll be gone.

I love Russia, and it deserves better ... Ukrainians demand better and have at least got elections that are fairer


Now, I note you simply cannot deal with the FACT that Russia physically interferes in it's neighbours affairs - esp. when they are 'naughty' and do not accept Russia's advice.


I HATE that Estonia and Latvia treat eth RU folk as 'residents' and have no say in the running of the country, but all they need to do is learn a few basic phrases of the local lingo and agree the former USSR did 'bad things'..

I GO to these places and talk to the people ..  they have NO problems with Russian people and in the EST / LV regions they even hanker ( sometimes) for control from Moscow.

Unlike you ( or so it seems ) I see both sides, but I watch the RU govt controlled media and see how they try to push how 'morally and monetarily' bankrupt former Soviet satellite nations are and the EU nations they might be part of ..

 

[Shadow]

Sighs,

The easiest internet search will reveal how ex PM and 'President '  Dmitry Medevdev  was the fall guy when it was exposed who funds his lifestyle, given his declared earnings.. Oligarchs who get awarded national contracts and 'nationalised' assets of Oligarchs who dared to become Politically active.

Mr Peskov, who was hospitalised with COVID-19 has a watch that would take more a lifetime for the average RU citizen to acquire on a ( declared ) salary of c.$20k

The Russian Court system is not something you want to end up in, given if they want you off the streets , you'll be gone.

I love Russia, and it deserves better ... Ukrainians demand better and have at least got elections that are fairer


Now, I note you simply cannot deal with the FACT that Russia physically interferes in it's neighbours affairs - esp. when they are 'naughty' and do not accept Russia's advice.


I HATE that Estonia and Latvia treat eth RU folk as 'residents' and have no say in the running of the country, but all they need to do is learn a few basic phrases of the local lingo and agree the former USSR did 'bad things'..

I GO to these places and talk to the people ..  they have NO problems with Russian people and in the EST / LV regions they even hanker ( sometimes) for control from Moscow.

Unlike you ( or so it seems ) I see both sides, but I watch the RU govt controlled media and see how they try to push how 'morally and monetarily' bankrupt former Soviet satellite nations are and the EU nations they might be part of ..

As seems usual you do not get it. I see both sides, but I do not choose a side here.Ukraine has what people call free elections, yet there still is a civil war (do not think that is over just because the news has stopped) and the people elected show time and time again to be no better than their predecessors.Opposed to that is a country where people realize that their government has its issues, but also that the effect for the country and population is positive in general.
Do not forget that I am in daily contact with people around the FSU on a friendly basis, not just the MIL.

[msmob]

As seems usual you do not get it.

Says the chap who has clearly been offering somewhat easy 'counters' to rebuff the clear physical involvement of Moscow in her INDEPENDENT neighbours

I see both sides, but I do not choose a side here.

I believe ANYONE watching your responses would dout that, John !

Ukraine has what people call free elections, yet there still is a civil war

It is not a 'Civil' War .. it is a sponsored by the RF, started by the RF and the RF is giving UA citizens RF passports

(do not think that is over just because the news has stopped) and the people elected show time and time again to be no better than their predecessors.

Remember, *I* said I've seen things with my own eyes.. The train form Sochi to Moscow used to pass through UA territory and we meet tourists from Donbas, plus wifey's dearest friend is a UA passport holder in the region of Donbas still under UA control...

The residents of Taganrog saw and heard Russia move it's armies into Ukraine in 2014 ...

Opposed to that is a country where people realize that their government has its issues, but also that the effect for the country and population is positive in general.

When where you last in SW Russia or Ukraine to know ?  Russians tend not to be 'political' as they realise that they cannot change anything, but the youngsters ... OMG you cannot have ANY idea

Do not forget that I am in daily contact with people around the FSU on a friendly basis, not just the MIL.

It doesn't show ..