The Struggle For Ukraine

[Bee Farmer]

Putins war reserves must be getting depleted rapidly given how many areas he’s pounding.

He won’t be able to replenish his munitions as quick as they’re being fired so he must have had a timeline in mind at the commencement of his special military operation invasion.

We're already seeing them use special missiles they have never used before.  Some of the missiles had dart objects that are released once missile defenses lock onto the missile.  These darts try to confuse the missile defenses.  From what I can tell, these darts sound similar to flares or chaff that jet fighters have.  They never used these missiles in Syria or anywhere else.

Are they running out of regular missiles, and having to resort to using these?  Now that the US and NATO knows about these darts, they can start developing countermeasures.  I highly doubt Russia wanted the western world to know about these darts.

Russia fired 30 missiles at the Yaroviv military training center.  22 were intercepted.  Supposedly, only 8 missiles hit the base.  Were these defensive darts what prevented the missile defenses from stopping the 8 that got through?

[fathertime]

1. Of course it matters. Your anti-US trope is well-documented in previous posts. Any time you use a term/phrase such as "coerce" or "arm-twisting," the fact that the author has a clear anti-US bias is most definitely relevant. Reference my earlier post re Critical Thinking.

No it doesn't matter.   I've been fair in how I've characterized US efforts. It does equate to coercion and arm twisting.  Not always but often enough to be important.

2. Of course it's important. The fact that only 6 countries having been sanctioned in more than 70 years is relevant to your accusation of "liberal" use of US sanctions. Notably you focus on alleged "liberal" use of sanctions, i.e. quantity, vice whether the sanctions have inherent merit. You earlier stated "Some probably justifiable, many aren't." That takes us back to your clear bias in #1.

You are using the smallest number possible to minimize the US use of sanctions.  When the west (And US) has control over financial system, the sanctions have more bite.  By sanctioning influential people in countries we consider adversaries we can have a real impact so in that respect the sanctions are similar to sanctioning a country. 

The entire anti-US trope is finished on RWD. This site will not be used for that purpose. Expect posts containing that message to be removed.

Your membership will wind up an unbalanced point of view without always keeping in mind that the US has similar strategies as Russia.  Done different when possible because we have the financial strength to conduct war in that arena far better than Russia has.    You have already been removing many posts you don't think are important.  IF the argument is so weak, you shouldn't have to do that.  A counterbalancing post does enough. 

Fathertime!   

[Trenchcoat]

No, you can't always pull generals out of thin air.  There is a set number of generals that exist.  It takes many years of experience to train and develop a general.

Yes, you can take a private and promote him to General, but that doesn't make him a general.  They are just a private in a general's uniform.  Giving someone a promotion does not give them knowledge, skills, and experience.  A promotion is supposed to be evidence of the skills, knowledge, and experience they have.

Promoting an incompetent or under-trained officer to be a General is asking for trouble.  They will get the men under them slaughtered.

Not really talking about taking a private and making him a General but there are other ranks just below a General. Some may be better than the Generals themselves but had others promoted over them based on connections, personal preference, etc. Then of course some Generals may have thinking that is more suited to other ways of warfare, outdated where lower ranks may be more in touch with the form of warfare we are seeing in Ukraine at present.

[krimster2]

with what happened to the FSB, it makes sense that something would also happen with Rosneft

this is from Putin's speech yesterday



The west, Putin said, is betting on the support of a 'fifth column', on "national traitors"... "...on those who make money here, in our country, but live there, and "live" not even in the geographical sense, but in their thoughts, in their consciousness, which is enslaved."

"I don't condemn at all those who have a villa in Miami or on the French Riviera, who cannot do without foie gras, oysters, or so-called 'gender freedoms'. That is absolutely not the problem."

"But, I repeat, the problem is that many of these people are mentally there, not here, not with our people, not with Russia. This is, in their opinion - in their opinion - a sign of belonging to a higher caste, to a higher race.

"Such people are ready to sell their mother, just to be allowed to sit in the hallway of this highest caste. They want to be like it... But they... don't understand that this so-called upper caste needs them only as expendable material to cause maximum damage to our people

But any people, and moreover the Russian people, can always distinguish the true patriots from the scum and traitors, and simply spit them out, like a gnat that accidentally flew into their mouth, spit them out on the panel."

"I am convinced that this natural and necessary self-cleansing of society will only strengthen our country, our solidarity, cohesion and readiness to meet any challenge."

“the purge” was subtly announced some time ago…
those who had ears, most definitely did listen

this is the reason my daughters are married to Russians
they both wear golden handcuffs, as do I
but we manage to "make ourselves useful"

[Chelseaboy]

Fathertime,


You need to spend less time on what the USA does and more time on what this thread is about.


If you want to rant against the west start a thread about it..instead of polluting this thread.


This thread is called "The struggle for Ukraine " for a reason.


Are there USA forces invading and destroying Ukraine..or are they Russian forces ?


What are your thoughts on Russian forces deliberately targeting Civilian residential areas ?


Do you feel that Putin should feel proud of what he's done in Mariupol,Kharkiv,Sumy,Irpin,Chernihiv and now doing in Kiev ?


Do you feel the west should stand by and watch Russia destroy a country and commit genocide against that countries people ?

[Admin]

1. No it doesn't matter.   I've been fair in how I've characterized US efforts. It does equate to coercion and arm twisting.  Not always but often enough to be important.

2. You are using the smallest number possible to minimize the US use of sanctions.  When the west (And US) has control over financial system, the sanctions have more bite.  By sanctioning influential people in countries we consider adversaries we can have a real impact so in that respect the sanctions are similar to sanctioning a country. 

3. Your membership will wind up an unbalanced point of view without always keeping in mind that the US has similar strategies as Russia.  Done different when possible because we have the financial strength to conduct war in that arena far better than Russia has.   

4. You have already been removing many posts you don't think are important.  IF the argument is so weak, you shouldn't have to do that.  A counterbalancing post does enough. 
Fathertime!

1. You are intentionally re-directing the thread to a focus on your perceptions of US mis-deeds. Your biases are clear. They undermine your arguments.

2. I intentionally pointed you back to the FACTS. You doggedly persist with pursuing your biased agenda.

3. Once again, you fall victim to the use of a logical fallacy, in this case the Appeal to Hypocrisy. Whatever US policies are that parallel Russia, those are irrelevant to events in Ukraine right now.

3a. In terms of unbalanced perspectives, this site has always embraced healthy constructive debate and exchange. The membership is unusually versed in international issues. No one is expected to hide their heads in the sand pertaining to issues affecting the US. The imbalance comes from a shrill few, who, if unfettered, dominate the exchanges with promotion of their agenda which is counter to the mission of the site. That won't stand.

4. The only posts which have been removed are those which were in violation of the RWD Terms of Service. If your goal is to disrupt, the posts will be removed. If your goal is to heckle the membership, the posts will be removed. If your goal is to promote an imbalanced anti-US agenda, the posts will be removed.

[Jumper1]

My guess is that they can always either pull more Generals from elsewhere or promote others to the position of General. A lot of the invasion plan has likely already been decided and it's not going smoothly. However, Russia has still been making inroads into Ukraine they have Ukraine's largest nuclear power plant, they have many of Ukraine major cities surrounded and seem to be moving slowly into Ukraine. Not exactly Blitzkrieg but remember WWII went on for years and we're only about 20 days into the invasion here. I think Russia has suffered unexpected shortcomings. Their tanks and planes could be more easily neutralised than thought so it mostly just leaves their missile launcher vehicles as their main useful bit of kit. So laying seige and pounding the hell out of cities while the city runs out of food, water and electricity becomes the strategy.

Zelensky reckons they are close to a deal with Russia in peace negotiations. I am not so sure, probably just Putin play a game as he tends to do. The value of the ruble had gone up perhaps on that expectation so possibly Putin is holding out the hope for short term economic improvement. All the while Putin is making some small gains on the ground I don't think he will agree to peace.

Putin of course has Chemical and Hyperthermal weapons at his disposal. He hasn't used them yet and remains uncertain whether he will go to those lengths, let's of course hope not.

Thermobaric seems to have allegedly  been used sparingly and on military targets initially in this war.

Hopefully that's not true,and hopefully they are not used.
They are as bad as it gets conventionally.

[krimster2]

before it switches to nuclear threats
Russia will need to increase its leverage over the West regarding oil…
after all, it's naval base in Syria was setup to support an operation like this

Russia is going to get Iran to block Hormuz and restrict the global flow of oil, doubling the market price which was already doubled…
this will cripple the western industrial economy which is very dependent on oil

it can also do this to pull China in…   “so, ya want some low priced oil, my friend?  Those raman noodles look de-licious and so do those truck tires, how about a trade, oh and some of those cruise missiles would be oichen hiroshie”

meanwhile, NATO fights Russia, down to the last Ukrainian…
without losing a single NATO soldier, nearly 10% of Russia’s deployed military, has been killed or wounded, and Russia's economy will massively contract…
and Russia's market share of European energy markets is poised to eventually be ZERO!

after this, it’ll just be the USA and China
Russia will have kicked itself to the curb…

expect a period of lawless social collapse on the fringes of Russia, like far east and south…
more anarchy loosed upon the world…
as order is destroyed

[Trenchcoat]

Well done Dan.


Those posters who use the unwarranted Russian invasion of Ukraine,in which civilians,including women and children,are being killed or made homeless, as an excuse to try and spin it into the wests fault,whilst not even questioning Putin,  are quite frankly nauseating.

I agree CB. I'm surprised this forum is still called 'Russian' Woman Discussion. Doesn't feel right considering all that has been inflicted by Russians on the poor Ukrainian people I think. It's totally horrifying to see the all the bombings the Russian army is doing on innocent civilians and civilian buildings. Let alone the description of what happening to the poor Ukrainians on the recieving end. I'm just glad I'm not there to see it or be subject to it.

[Jumper1]

before it switches to nuclear threats
Russia will need to increase its leverage over the West regarding oil…
after all, it's naval base in Syria was setup to support an operation like this

Russia is going to get Iran to block Hormuz and restrict the global flow of oil, doubling the market price which was already doubled…
this will cripple the western industrial economy which is very dependent on oil

it can also do this to pull China in…   “so, ya want some low priced oil, my friend?  Those raman noodles look de-licious and so do those truck tires, how about a trade, oh and some of those cruise missiles would be oichen hiroshie”

meanwhile, NATO fights Russia, down to the last Ukrainian…
without losing a single NATO soldier, nearly 10% of Russia’s deployed military, has been killed or wounded, and Russia's economy will massively contract…
and Russia's market share of European energy markets is poised to eventually be ZERO!

after this, it’ll just be the USA and China
Russia will have kicked itself to the curb…

expect a period of lawless social collapse on the fringes of Russia, like far east and south…
more anarchy loosed upon the world…
as order is destroyed

That's a very possible outcome.

I'd say the straight wont be blocked though, an attempt to block it may happen, iran is unpredictable.

It's a tight straight but I though still center international water,?  Or the UAE side would be passage. If so  blockading it would indeed by sn act of war, of course the misdles they launched at the us consulate  in iraq the other was as well.
We may sit in our hands.
But that's likely a huge red line

[Chelseaboy]

I agree CB. I'm surprised this forum is still called 'Russian' Woman Discussion. Doesn't feel right considering all that has been inflicted by Russians on the poor Ukrainian people I think. It's totally horrifying to see the all the bombings the Russian army is doing on innocent civilians and civilian buildings. Let alone the description of what happening to the poor Ukrainians on the recieving end. I'm just glad I'm not there to see it or be subject to it.

There are good Russians out there too....4,300 arrested in Russia for protesting against the war.


Some of the Russian troops will be decent people too..they won't all be inhuman monsters relishing what's going on in Ukraine.


Unfortunately within every group of people you'll get wrong un's  and those among the Russian military will enjoy inflicting pain and suffering to Ukrainian civilians with a smirk on their faces...and Putin and his cronies certainly have no souls.

[Patagonie]

with what happened to the FSB, it makes sense that something would also happen with Rosneft

this is from Putin's speech yesterday



The west, Putin said, is betting on the support of a 'fifth column', on "national traitors"... "...on those who make money here, in our country, but live there, and "live" not even in the geographical sense, but in their thoughts, in their consciousness, which is enslaved."

"I don't condemn at all those who have a villa in Miami or on the French Riviera, who cannot do without foie gras, oysters, or so-called 'gender freedoms'. That is absolutely not the problem."

"But, I repeat, the problem is that many of these people are mentally there, not here, not with our people, not with Russia. This is, in their opinion - in their opinion - a sign of belonging to a higher caste, to a higher race.

"Such people are ready to sell their mother, just to be allowed to sit in the hallway of this highest caste. They want to be like it... But they... don't understand that this so-called upper caste needs them only as expendable material to cause maximum damage to our people

But any people, and moreover the Russian people, can always distinguish the true patriots from the scum and traitors, and simply spit them out, like a gnat that accidentally flew into their mouth, spit them out on the panel."

"I am convinced that this natural and necessary self-cleansing of society will only strengthen our country, our solidarity, cohesion and readiness to meet any challenge."

“the purge” was subtly announced some time ago…
those who had ears, most definitely did listen

this is the reason my daughters are married to Russians
they both wear golden handcuffs, as do I
but we manage to "make ourselves useful"

What a program! The Great Purge again! The fifth column, the velikaya Rodina is back again!

[LiveFromUkraine]

1. You are intentionally re-directing the thread to a focus on your perceptions of US mis-deeds. Your biases are clear. They undermine your arguments.

2. I intentionally pointed you back to the FACTS. You doggedly persist with pursuing your biased agenda.

3. Once again, you fall victim to the use of a logical fallacy, in this case the Appeal to Hypocrisy. Whatever US policies are that parallel Russia, those are irrelevant to events in Ukraine right now.

3a. In terms of unbalanced perspectives, this site has always embraced healthy constructive debate and exchange. The membership is unusually versed in international issues. No one is expected to hide their heads in the sand pertaining to issues affecting the US. The imbalance comes from a shrill few, who, if unfettered, dominate the exchanges with promotion of their agenda which is counter to the mission of the site. That won't stand.

4. The only posts which have been removed are those which were in violation of the RWD Terms of Service. If your goal is to disrupt, the posts will be removed. If your goal is to heckle the membership, the posts will be removed. If your goal is to promote an imbalanced anti-US agenda, the posts will be removed.

Interesting conversation.  It seems one group thinks the other group is bias but they are not.  Why is that?  Where are you getting your information that leads you to unbiased conclusions? 

I've seen so much "disinformation" in the past 4 or so years that makes me wonder why anyone would believe anything coming out of the media.  When I say "disinformation", I'm talking about things people were blocked from posting on social media but later came out as true.


Should Ukraine be able to pick and choose it's destination.  Absolutely. 
Should Ukraine be able to choose whether they want a relationship with the west or with Russia.  Absolutely.

Unfortunately, that isn't reality and was never a reality unless the west was going to go to war with Russia.

If you think the West isn't culpable for this than you're showing your bias.  Holding the NATO/EU carrot on a stick didn't help Ukraine at all.  It just made Ukraine believe they had other options when they didn't.  It would have been better for Ukraine if they were told they would never be part of EU/Nato so they could make decisions based on reality.

Weird how Hunter Biden was getting paid all that money from Burisma.  Weird how the same people in the Biden administration was also in the Obama administration when Ukraine went into civil war.  Now we have harmless bio-labs that they are scared of Russia getting control over.  Why are they scared if they aren't bio weapons?   Just a bunch coincidences I am sure and probably showing my bias.  Just like everyone else has their bias.

[Boethius]

Do you feel that Putin should feel proud of what he's done in Mariupol,Kharkiv,Sumy,Irpin,Chernihiv and now doing in Kiev ?

That's Kyiv.

[rwd123]

According to the Regional Governor cowardly Russian troops have had to take 400 patients and Staff hostage and are holding them in the intensive care Hospital basement.


No wonder Putin is having to lower his demands with his shambolic military having to resort to such tactics...if true.

What is your source? Think for yourself just for a moment. What would the Russian military benefit from doing this? It doesn't make any sense.

It's also contrary to (unverified) reports I have read. Apparently the Azov Battalion are headquartered in the Mariupol Drama Theater and holding civilians hostage in the lobby. They have also, allegedly, occupied two major factories (Ilyich, Azavstal; total 24,000 employees). It has already been demonstrated that the Ukrainian military are taking up positions in civilian locations.

This is not a battle between 'good guys and bad guys'. The Ukrainian military is using guerilla warfare tactics deliberately putting civilians at risk. Foreign mercenaries are being sent to Kyiv with no gear/ammo. It is shambolic. Russia obtains no strategic or tactical benefit from dead civilians, the Ukrainian government does. It's not to say it doesn't happen but wouldn't be central to their planning. It is evident they prefer to lay siege to a city and squeeze it, much like what Krimster was saying.

It's impossible to obtain the truth in the fog of war, but the western narrative is a fairy tale - complete with a Snake Island and "Ghost of Kyiv", LOL. Have the British press reported on all those dead British mercenaries blown up in western Ukraine? LOL, I don't think that is hitting the press...

The hawks at the Pentagon are absolutely love this. Make a killing on arms sales and not put one American soldier at risk. Inflict damage to Russia without directly going to war with them. But at some point the Russian government may decide to put their foot down and drop a nuke in Western Ukraine. Much like the USA in 1945 they'll use the pretext that it was a way to end the conflict sooner than it would have played out. They like using historical references such as the Balkans conflict in the 90s so may decide to "press the button".

The west didn't accept the surrender treaty in 2015 and still won't accept it. The modus operandi of the USA is to drag out the conflict to create a greater number of casualties, because you can stick a fork in Ukraine - it's done.

[LiveFromUkraine]

Seriously, I'm seeing so much propaganda from both sides that I don't know what to believe.  How is everyone figuring out what is real and what isn't?

[rwd123]

Seriously, I'm seeing so much propaganda from both sides that I don't know what to believe.  How is everyone figuring out what is real and what isn't?

You have to take all perspectives and then use logic and reasoning (not emotion). The fact that Zelensky has stated Ukraine should drop the idea of NATO membership is to me a sign that they don't have the upper hand in negotiations.

It does appear that the Ukrainian military dropped a cluster bomb on civilians in Donetsk, but it won't appear in western media:

http://thesaker.is/three-important-missile-strikes/

So much for CB's noble freedom fighters...

[LiveFromUkraine]

You have to take all perspectives and then use logic and reasoning (not emotion). The fact that Zelensky has stated Ukraine should drop the idea of NATO membership is to me a sign that they don't have the upper hand in negotiations.

It does appear that the Ukrainian military dropped a cluster bomb on civilians in Donetsk, but it won't appear in western media:

http://thesaker.is/three-important-missile-strikes/

So much for CB's noble freedom fighters...

Zelensky is desperate.  Totally understandable. I don't know about that bomb, but we've seen stories coming out that Russia tried to blow up a nuclear plant in Zapo when it didn't happen.  They need the west to get involved and will do anything to survive.  I don't blame them.  Definitely can't trust Putin.  That is why I don't know how people are sure of themselves.  It does look like quite a few foreigners are getting tricked and signing up for the cause only to find out how bad the situation really is.

[Boethius]

Interesting conversation.  It seems one group thinks the other group is bias but they are not.  Why is that?  Where are you getting your information that leads you to unbiased conclusions? 

I've seen so much "disinformation" in the past 4 or so years that makes me wonder why anyone would believe anything coming out of the media.  When I say "disinformation", I'm talking about things people were blocked from posting on social media but later came out as true.


Should Ukraine be able to pick and choose it's destination.  Absolutely. 
Should Ukraine be able to choose whether they want a relationship with the west or with Russia.  Absolutely.

Unfortunately, that isn't reality and was never a reality unless the west was going to go to war with Russia.

If you think the West isn't culpable for this than you're showing your bias.  Holding the NATO/EU carrot on a stick didn't help Ukraine at all.  It just made Ukraine believe they had other options when they didn't.  It would have been better for Ukraine if they were told they would never be part of EU/Nato so they could make decisions based on reality.

Weird how Hunter Biden was getting paid all that money from Burisma.  Weird how the same people in the Biden administration was also in the Obama administration when Ukraine went into civil war.  Now we have harmless bio-labs that they are scared of Russia getting control over.  Why are they scared if they aren't bio weapons?   Just a bunch coincidences I am sure and probably showing my bias.  Just like everyone else has their bias.

I won't go into "disinformation" regarding the press, though I do know a thing or two about disinformation campaigns.  I recall back in the mid 1980's, suggesting that Sinyavsky and Daniel, two Soviet "dissidents" were fake trials, and both were KGB agents or affiliated with them.  That was not a popular opinion then.  But in the early to mid 1990's, when KGB archives were released by Roy Medvedev, that was absolutely correct.  My point is, most disinformation isn't particularly sophisticated, and can be recognized.


The West is not culpable.  The Ukrainian constitution wasn't written by the West.  It was written by a team of diaspora Ukrainians.  Two I know who were at the forefront were Bohdan Hawrylyshyn and Halyna Freeland.  The US provided funding to build the foundations of government, but it was not the sole source of funds.  Early, Soros provided funding, but eventually was thrown out of the country.  The Canadian government provided funding.  Diaspora Ukrainians provided significant funding, and time.  The Ukrainian banking system, for example, was modeled on Canada's system, and Ukrainians came here to work in banks and learn how to operate banks.


I am not suggesting that things were perfect in Ukraine - far from it.  It's corrupt, but I think with time, that would have lessened, if Ukraine were to join the EU.


Ukraine may become a part of the EU.  NATO was never in the cards.  The reality is that Ukraine was moving away from Russia in terms of freedom, and that is what Putin could not abide.  That and losing Kyiv.


Hunter Biden is a false canard, misunderstood by most Americans.  I have posted in the past about this.  It's also irrelevant to the invasion.


As for the biolabs, if one is studying diseases such as H5N1, the pathogens do need to be controlled.  That doesn't mean there is a nefarious purpose behind the laboratory.   

[Boethius]

What is your source? Think for yourself just for a moment. What would the Russian military benefit from doing this? It doesn't make any sense.

There are live videos from drones.

Apparently the Azov Battalion are headquartered in the Mariupol Drama Theater and holding civilians hostage in the lobby. They have also, allegedly, occupied two major factories (Ilyich, Azavstal; total 24,000 employees). It has already been demonstrated that the Ukrainian military are taking up positions in civilian locations.

The theatre was attacked yesterday, is now rubble, and that rubble is blocking a shelter underneath the theatre. The shelter is where civilians were located. They are now blocked in. That’s coming from German sources, complete with photos.


There is a video of a civilian, hands up, being shot by Russian soldiers.  We know as a fact that Russian soldiers shot down 10 civilians lined up to buy bread, and civilians fleeing Irpin, as there are recordings.

This is not a battle between 'good guys and bad guys'. The Ukrainian military is using guerilla warfare tactics deliberately putting civilians at risk. Foreign mercenaries are being sent to Kyiv with no gear/ammo. It is shambolic. Russia obtains no strategic or tactical benefit from dead civilians, the Ukrainian government does. It's not to say it doesn't happen but wouldn't be central to their planning. It is evident they prefer to lay siege to a city and squeeze it, much like what Krimster was saying.

Well, when you invade a country for no good reason, you own every civilian death, whether or not you are the cause.  Are you really making this argument?

The hawks at the Pentagon are absolutely love this. Make a killing on arms sales and not put one American soldier at risk. Inflict damage to Russia without directly going to war with them. But at some point the Russian government may decide to put their foot down and drop a nuke in Western Ukraine. Much like the USA in 1945 they'll use the pretext that it was a way to end the conflict sooner than it would have played out. They like using historical references such as the Balkans conflict in the 90s so may decide to "press the button".

Why would the hawks love this?  The US military budget is something like $745 billion.  The Pentagon isn't benefiting from arms sales.  All equipment to Ukraine is paid for by the US government.  The one thing this war has proved is that the Russian military is subpar.

The west didn't accept the surrender treaty in 2015 and still won't accept it. The modus operandi of the USA is to drag out the conflict to create a greater number of casualties, because you can stick a fork in Ukraine - it's done.

The same has been said for centuries.  Yet, a Ukrainian national identity now exists, and is stronger, after this, than it was before this illegal invasion of a sovereign nation.  Had Russia been ruled by someone smarter (who could advance beyond a major in the KGB), they would have sat back and let economic factors work in their favour.  Instead, they have created a country where tens of millions will never accept Russia.

[Boethius]

You have to take all perspectives and then use logic and reasoning (not emotion). The fact that Zelensky has stated Ukraine should drop the idea of NATO membership is to me a sign that they don't have the upper hand in negotiations.

It does appear that the Ukrainian military dropped a cluster bomb on civilians in Donetsk, but it won't appear in western media:

http://thesaker.is/three-important-missile-strikes/

So much for CB's noble freedom fighters...

Sure.  A site that refers to Ukrainians as "nazis" is an absolutely credible source of information.

[Boethius]

Here's a more balanced source on the use of cluster bombs.  Presently, each side is blaming the other.  Russia has used cluster bombs in Ukraine, but the Dontesk attack is still unproven on either side.  Hoewever, other cluster munitions have been used in the region by Russia.


http://www.bellingcat.com/news/rest-of-world/2022/03/11/these-are-the-cluster-munitions-documented-by-ukrainian-civilians/

[Boethius]

I will also state that in Kyiv, authorities tell remaining civilians to shelter in bomb shelters.  There are warning sirens for incoming missiles, and people are told to stay in place until they receive an all clear.  They are being asked not to use cellphones during certain hours, I assume, for military purposes. 


The above doesn't sound like a state that would fire on its own civilians.

[rwd123]

There are live videos from drones.

There are live videos from drones of Russians taking civilians as hostages? Haven't seen that. Can you explain to me how it makes sense for the Russian military to take 400 civilians as hostages?

As I said it is impossible to obtain the truth in the fog of war. Neither side have clean skins. The western narrative is clearly tangental. Multiple perspectives need to be considered.

The Ukrainian government has been firing on its citizens for the past eight years. Why do you think they will stop now? Particularly when captured "Ukronazis" will be summarily executed by Russian soldiers.

Tell me, why would the Russian government want to drop a cluster bomb on Donetsk? You're a smart cookie. I'm sure you can either find a logical explanation or realize it was the Ukrainian military?

There are no 'good guys' in this conflict and the Ukrainian leadership has demonstrated a disregard for civilian life. That may not extend to all officials (obviously) but it is intellectually dishonest to ignore the behaviors of the Ukrainian military/SBU, etc.

[rwd123]

The above doesn't sound like a state that would fire on its own civilians.

I presume you live a sheltered existence. Every large government would fire on its own civilians. Nothing new in the USA - look up the Bonus Army. The government fired on veterans! Lots of historical examples in Europe. Even more recently look at the treatment of people in Canada and Australia - supposedly "democratic" countries. Not to mention Maidan snipers... or those in Donbass...