The Propaganda War

[missAmeno]

[missAmeno]

[missAmeno]

Скажи, солдат, за что ты умер?
За честь? За Родину? За долг?
Квартиру, дачу, новый «Бумер»?
Стыдливо попрощался полк...

Без почестей и караула,
Как преступленья инструмент,
Кто на краю зарыт аула,
Как молодой чеченский мент,

А кто-то в псковской деревеньке,
Оставив дома сироту,
Портретом стал на голой стенке,
За чью-то псевдоправоту.

Но объясните мне, невежде,
Как можно путина любить,
Сильней чем сына, дочь, в надежде
Нас безнаказанно убить?

Вы, умирая, не поймёте,
Кто прав. Не прав. Чья тут земля.
Зачем на танках вы к нам прёте?
Бесславно сдохнуть за царя?

Ну что же, коль детей не жалко,
Вам ни своих и ни моих,
Мы встретим и проводим жарко,
Кого прислал кремлевский псих.

Плетенчук Дмитро

[missAmeno]

Казахстан никогда не был государством. Об этом заявил президент РФ Владимир Путин на молодежном форуме "Селигер" в пятницу, 29 августа.

В частности, он отметил, что президент Казахстана Нурсултан Назарбаев "совершил уникальную вещь - создал государство на территории, на которой государства не было никогда".

Kazakhstan has never been a state. This was stated by Russian President Vladimir Putin at the youth forum "Seliger" on Friday, August 29.

In particular, he noted that the President of Kazakhstan Nursultan Nazarbayev "has made a unique thing - created a state on the territory in which the state has never happened before."

http://atn.ua/politika/putin-zayavil-chto-kazahstan-nikogda-ne-byl-gosudarstvom

[missAmeno]

On the territory of Ukraine was seen machinery and manpower of these military units of Russian Federation:

June 14 at Dobropillya was captured BM-21 "Grad" belonging to the 18th mechanized infantry brigade (Hankala, Chechnya)

August 9-11 according to official reports on the ground near Rostov-on-Don died 9 contractors of 18th motorized rifle brigade (Hankala, Chechnya)

August 12 died Marcel Araptanov, contracted in the 17th separate motorized rifle brigade of Guards (military unit 65384)

August 16 eliminated the commander of the 1st EOM 33rd separate intelligence brigade, military unit 22179 Maykop, Russia

August 21 captured BMD belonged to military unit 74268 first paratroopers brigade Pskov Airborne Division

August 24 captured APC 23-th of separate brigade of Guards Infantry, military unit 65349 (Samara)

August 25 detained ten soldiers of 331 Regiment 98 Svirsky Airborne Division of the Armed Forces (military unit 71211)

August 27 SBU posted a video of interrogation of the private from 9th Infantry Brigade of the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation, which is stationed in the Rostov region

[missAmeno]

Britain and six other states are to create a new joint expeditionary force of at least 10,000 personnel to bolster Nato’s power in response to Russian aggression in Ukraine.

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/5335d904-2f98-11e4-87d9-00144feabdc0.html#axzz3BuDkOAfE

[ghost of moon goddess]

We saw no evidence that Russian military killing our cousins and vice versa.

Utterly pathetic tactics!

What about these guys ?

(to help our non-Russian speakers, I give a loose translation of what E. Vasiljeva (Russian politician) wrote:
The war has begun. A full-scale war. Tragedy knocks on the doors of Russian families across the country.
United by grief, distraught mothers of killed soldiers are running madly to and fro, agonizing over the question: For the sake of what?... (Answer: For Putin)

OMG! They see no evidence 
http://www.evasiljeva.ru/2014/08/blog-post_28.html

[BillyB]

I have no doubts America will send weapons into Russia to the Russian citizens if they start fight for freedom. Are you against fight for freedom? 

America hasn't done so in North Korea. I doubt they do that in Russia......unless Russia starts a war with America. What America does have in Russia is NGOs to promote democracy just as we had in Ukraine. Some people here are shocked these things happen and don't like that but Russia does the same things except they don't promote democracy. Russia was the expert at it after WW2. They quickly turned countries the allies liberated into our enemies. Promoting democracy is a very good investment.


Leaders of NATO countries have a meeting next week. They are expected to announce unwavering support of Ukraine. Most likely that means we will support Ukraine with advanced weapons, not troops. We are going to try to turn Ukraine into Russia's Afghanistan. Putin has to weigh how many of his troops he's willing to lose over Ukraine. Sanctions never stopped Putin. Sanctions never worked.

[Belvis]

America hasn't done so in North Korea.

What about Syria or Iraq?

Leaders of NATO countries have a meeting next week. They are expected to announce unwavering support of Ukraine. Most likely that means we will support Ukraine with advanced weapons, not troops. We are going to try to turn Ukraine into Russia's Afghanistan. Putin has to weigh how many of his troops he's willing to lose over Ukraine.

I believe you are going to try to turn Ukraine into Russia's Afghanistan. As a matter of fact you'll turn Ukraine into just Afghanistan, and likely today's Afghanistan. There are solid economic and political benefits for US to waken Europe in such a way  because Ukraine will be their headache. As for Russia Putin don't bother as "many russian troops" is a fake to justify military defeat in the civil war.
We'll compete in arm supplies, Ukrainians will die in civil war, that's the truth.

[fathertime]

Leaders of NATO countries have a meeting next week. They are expected to announce unwavering support of Ukraine. Most likely that means we will support Ukraine with advanced weapons, not troops. We are going to try to turn Ukraine into Russia's Afghanistan. Putin has to weigh how many of his troops he's willing to lose over Ukraine. Sanctions never stopped Putin. Sanctions never worked.

It will be interesting to see if NATO makes a move like the one you are mentioning.  I don't think they will. If they do, I think it would be a dreadful mistake.  I think it would widen the conflict, and cause many many more deaths, especially on the Western leaning Ukrainian side. 




I still haven't heard a damn thing outta of the Putin Poroshenko meeting this week.  I would have thought something would have leaked out about the meeting.  What are the hangups exactly?  Is a Ukrainian federation still on the table, from Putin's perspective?  What, if anything is Ukraine offering? 


The USA spent several trillion dollars and 1000's of lives on wars this last decade.  Russia might be willing to do the same, or maybe more even.  In my opinion, we shouldn't test them on this battlefield.  A different time/place maybe.


Fathertime!   

[missAmeno]

We'll compete in arm supplies, Ukrainians will die in civil war, that's the truth.

That is BS.

Here is Russian paratrooper Dmitry Gritsyuk films corpses of Ukrainian soldiers

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=pZL6ZVlTCWg


and here he makes selfies with corpses



and here he uploads them to his vk account



http://hi.dn.ua/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=48762:2014-08-01-12-28-06&catid=52:world&Itemid=150

[missAmeno]

[sleepycat]

I wouldn't draw a parallel between the trope that Boethius, not unreasonably, used, IMO,  and your trademark 'coolness and sexiness' that some of your posts are so generously padded with 

Ouch!

[JohnDearGreen]

It will be interesting to see if NATO makes a move like the one you are mentioning.  I don't think they will.   

There are ways around NATO CFE rules:
http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/hungary-sells-t-72-tanks-to-026666/
http://picturesdotnews.wordpress.com/2014/08/29/hungarian-t-72-tanks-are-heading-to-ukraine-among-others-as-nato-is-arming-ukraine/

[calmissile]

Thanks for the links.  Hopefully Ukraine will get the arms from somewhere to defend themselves from the Russian terrorists.  It would be nice if they got some anti-radiation aircraft like was used in Iraq to supress the Russian anti-aircraft radars and missile batteries in Ukraine.  The US should have a number of spares available as well as Signal Intelligence aircraft.  Of course, we are strapped with no-balls Obama for two more years so I won't hold my breath waiting.

Glory to Ukraine

[Isthmus]

Kazakhstan has never been a state. This was stated by Russian President Vladimir Putin at the youth forum "Seliger" on Friday, August 29.

In particular, he noted that the President of Kazakhstan Nursultan Nazarbayev "has made a unique thing - created a state on the territory in which the state has never happened before."

http://atn.ua/politika/putin-zayavil-chto-kazahstan-nikogda-ne-byl-gosudarstvom

It all starts with some lies and propaganda ... now we need some Russian tv news reports about the persecution of Russians in KZ ...

[missAmeno]

It all starts with some lies and propaganda ... now we need some Russian tv news reports about the persecution of Russians in KZ ...

http://america.aljazeera.com/articles/2014/6/19/north-kazakhstanisntthenextcrimeaayet.html

http://www.newrepublic.com/article/116965/putins-next-targets-eastern-ukraine-and-northern-kazakhstan

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26549796

KZ is on the list, always have been.

[Isthmus]

http://america.aljazeera.com/articles/2014/6/19/north-kazakhstanisntthenextcrimeaayet.html

http://www.newrepublic.com/article/116965/putins-next-targets-eastern-ukraine-and-northern-kazakhstan

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26549796

KZ is on the list, always have been.

KZ is probably safe whilst Nazarbayev is still around but after his departure Moscow would have more scope for its current expansionist aims. Moving on KZ would be a debacle for Putin. Turning a moderate and largely secular Islamic people like the Kazakhs towards jihadists would be disastrous for Russia in the long term.

But it is definitely true that Central Asia has looked at what has happened in Ukraine and they are now be looking for options that will help distance them from Moscow.

So much for recreating the USSR, Putin's macho incompetence will ensure it never happens and that Russia actually loses influence in the Former Soviet Space.

[missAmeno]

When russian tanks have been rolling across Georgia, Putin was talking Ukraine never been a state.
Now russian tanks rolling across Ukraine and Putin is saying Kazakhstan never been a state.
Putin will not wait same time he had to wait between occupation of Georgia and occupation of Ukraine as his own time running out. Within 2 years russian tanks will roll across Kazakhstan.   
Nazarbayev knows that and that is why he is considering to withdraw from the Eurasian Economic Union.

"If the rules set forth in the agreement are not followed, Kazakhstan has a right to withdraw from the Eurasian Economic Union. I have said this before and I am saying this again. Kazakhstan will not be part of organizations that pose a threat to our independence. Our independence is our dearest treasure, which our grandfathers fought for. First of all, we will never surrender it to someone, and secondly, we will do our best to protect it," the President said.

http://en.tengrinews.kz/politics_sub/Kazakhstan-may-leave-EEU-if-its-interests-are-infringed-Nazarbayev-255722/

[missAmeno]

But it is definitely true that Central Asia has looked at what has happened in Ukraine and they are now be looking for options that will help distance them from Moscow.

Ukraine tried that after Georgia and was not allowed. Came to the point where people had to come to the streets and fight against being pawned to Russia and result is still same: russian tanks on our land.

[missAmeno]

With fears of Moscow growing after its intervention in Ukraine, NATO member states in Eastern Europe would like NATO to direct a planned missile-defense system against Russia as well. The calls have divided the military alliance

http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/nato-considers-missle-shield-directed-against-russia-a-987899.html

[missAmeno]

And this one is for those who aka read OSCE reports and those who believe Russian TV.

Hug is the deputy head of the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE) monitoring mission in Ukraine. He has been monitoring activities at Europe's easternmost edge for months now -- in the "People's Republics" of Donetsk and Luhansk that have been proclaimed by pro-Russian separatists. The expectation of the OSCE's 57 member states is that Hug will provide an objective look at what is happening in the region.

The visit took place last Tuesday, five days after the aircraft had been shot down. The rebels claimed that the remains of all 298 of the dead had been recovered, but the stench of death among the wreckage told a different story. Hug says he has seen "body parts all over the place."

As had been the case for days, apart from Hug and the Malaysians, the crash site was devoid of any guards or teams of investigators and was open to anyone, including plunderers. The rebels have even taken away aircraft parts and presented them like trophies at checkpoints located kilometers away.

The reports are just as untrue as the majority of what Russian television stations broadcast from the separatist republics each day. There is, for example, the report that air traffic controllers, located 270 kilometers away in Dnipropetrovsk, a city under the control of a governor friendly to Kiev, instructed Flight MH 17 to change its path in order to make it easier for Ukrainian fighter jets to shoot it down. European air traffic safety regulators have long since refuted reports of a course change and have stated that the aircraft followed its originally planned route.

The separatists and Moscow alike have indignantly denied that a Buk surface-to-air missile shot MH 17 down. They have also vehemently denied that rebels could even have been in possession of the air defense system. They claim that evidence in the form of photos and recordings of conversations have been fabricated by the Ukrainians and the Americans.

But on Wednesday, Alexander Khodakovsky, a rebel leader in Donetsk and commander of the notorious Vostok battalion, told Reuters that rebels did in fact possess the Buk missile system and that it could have come from Russia.

Just a few days later, rebels in the area again shoot down two planes, Ukrainian Air Force SU-25 fighter jets. In recent weeks, they have shot down 14 aircraft. Evidence is overwhelming that the Malaysian Airlines Boeing was among them.

Alexander Hug is still at the site of the downed plane, with the wreckage in sight. He says he doesn't want to comment on any of this. "The OSCE has no political agenda," he says, "and that's what makes it possible for us to be in the combat area of the rebels." He says his most important mission is making sure that the world finally has access to the crash site in Grabovo.

http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/a-trip-to-the-site-of-the-crash-of-flight-mh-17-a-983268.html

[Faux Pas]

I believe you are going to try to turn Ukraine into Russia's Afghanistan. As a matter of fact you'll turn Ukraine into just Afghanistan, and likely today's Afghanistan. There are solid economic and political benefits for US to waken Europe in such a way  because Ukraine will be their headache. As for Russia Putin don't bother as "many russian troops" is a fake to justify military defeat in the civil war.
We'll compete in arm supplies, Ukrainians will die in civil war, that's the truth.

The conflict on it's current path reflects that Russia, more specifically Putin will turn Ukraine into Russia's Afghanistan. Belvis you seem like an intelligent man from your musings in the past on the boards. Your comments since the conflict come across as a Russian propaganda hack. Your comments parrot Putin's propaganda verbatim.

When you discuss death and dying in Eastern Ukraine, do you consider for just one minute that if Putin were to withdraw his troops from East Ukraine and from the border, stop supplying separatists that the deaths would come to a screeching halt? Ukraine could then deal with it's own problems and those unhappy with Ukraine could leave? Your King has no clothes and his actions toward Ukraine is naked aggression. If you want the deaths of Russian soldiers and Ukrainians alike to stop, that will only be accomplished if your President gathers up his toys and goes home.

We are all victims of our leaders, everyone. It is not them paying the price or doing the dying. They only wish to divide and conquer to keep their firm grip on power. I don't care who the leader is. The sooner you realize this, the sooner you can see this conflict for what it really is. Putin lost his grip on Ukraine as a result of Maiden. If he can't have it democratically, he plans to take it forcefully. He gives not one shit how many have to die for this to happen. Think, man, think,

[missAmeno]

[BillyB]

It will be interesting to see if NATO makes a move like the one you are mentioning.  I don't think they will. If they do, I think it would be a dreadful mistake.  I think it would widen the conflict, and cause many many more deaths, especially on the Western leaning Ukrainian side. 

The West already understands sanctions don't work. Putin wants to widen the conflict to get what he wants. If he sees a weak West who refuses to take action, he may want more than Ukraine. Moldova is on his mind. Maybe the Baltics and Poland. Putin, just as Hitler did, is watching our reactions. The West should have been much harder in the beginning. We have international laws but it seems nobody is strong enough to enforce them.

I still haven't heard a damn thing outta of the Putin Poroshenko meeting this week.  I would have thought something would have leaked out about the meeting.  What are the hangups exactly?  Is a Ukrainian federation still on the table, from Putin's perspective?  What, if anything is Ukraine offering? 

Ukraine has already state they will offer more autonomy but not enough to let east Ukraine get annexed by Russia. Russia wants the land, period. They may want all of Ukraine. No meeting will solve the differences.


Poroshenko gets a meeting with Obama at the White House. Obama is expected to announce unwavering support.


http://www.morningstar.co.uk/uk/news/AN_1409290238223929500/ukraines-poroshenko-to-visit-obama-next-month-at-white-house.aspx


http://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2014/08/28/statement-press-secretary-visit-president-petro-poroshenko-ukraine

The USA spent several trillion dollars and 1000's of lives on wars this last decade.  Russia might be willing to do the same, or maybe more even.  In my opinion, we shouldn't test them on this battlefield.  A different time/place maybe.

This problem, as was Libya, is more of Europe's than America's. But when Europe has problems, we be affected. War cost money but imagine if nobody stopped Hitler or Stalin from conquering nations? What does it cost us when we're their slaves or cease to exist?


The 9/11 terrorist attacked hurt our economy badly. We needed to respond to let everyone know that will not be tolerated. Response cost money and lives but doing nothing costs more. Yes, America goes to war a lot but we pay much cheaper gas and our products are cheaper. We make a lot and pay less compared to many of the other citizens of the world. America benefits by keeping this world stable and providing security for other nations. Imagine a world without America. We'd be back to our old selves like was written in history. Much more wars and real estate changing hands constantly.