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Looks like it has all fallen apart pretty quickly out there for the former Afghan government and the Taliban are back in power. Soldiers out there at present to evacuate embassy staff while the Taliban having moved into Kabul at the same time. Guessing it might be a tense time if Taliban fighters engage forces of the US, UK, etc. With the US & UK's budgets in a perilous state because of the pandemic I'm guessing money to fight a Taliban insurgency was out of the question.
It's looking like all that time, money, effort, bother and lives lost out there was all a waste of time. I never thought in the first place it was worth the hassle the way Bush & Blair went about it. Seems their strategy was all wrong and they never did their homework to learn from the Soviets mistakes out there. Can't think life is going to be very easy for the Afghan people now that the Taliban are back in power. Hardship & the Coronavirus knocking around for them I would have thought. Little to no aid from the west forthcoming I would reckon.
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It was an absolutely stupid, foolish, idiotic idea to remove troops from Afghanistan. The Taliban are retaking the country, what did the US think would happen? The Taliban now have the equipment and weaponry we gave to the Afghan military and are stronger than ever. Stupid, stupid move.
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It was an absolutely stupid, foolish, idiotic idea to remove troops from Afghanistan. The Taliban are retaking the country, what did the US think would happen? The Taliban now have the equipment and weaponry we gave to the Afghan military ... stupid move.
I believe it was stupid to go in there in the first place. The British failed there...the Russians did too.The Taliban now have the equipment and weaponry we gave to the Afghan military
Odd..that happened in Vietnam also if I recall.
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It was an absolutely stupid, foolish, idiotic idea to remove troops from Afghanistan. The Taliban are retaking the country, what did the US think would happen? The Taliban now have the equipment and weaponry we gave to the Afghan military and are stronger than ever. Stupid, stupid move.
It was always going to happen. There was never going to be a long term solution where
Afghanistan turned into a real country with peace, prosperity and unbuggered camels.
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The Taliban visited China two weeks ago. Probably told them someone in America owes them a favor so get your troops ready. In exchange for getting America out of Afghanistan, they must do business with China.
No sane American general would flee so quickly leaving behind billions of dollars worth of military equipment for the enemy to have. Giving up strategic military bases is one thing but they would take the equipment out of there. The way we left Afghanistan wasn't because of a bad decision. It was done on purpose. No expert advisor would've recommended that type of exit that leads to chaos and death. Trump had a peace plan with the Taliban that they wouldn't commit violence and get along with the Afghan government if we left and we were supposed to leave May this year. I don't want our troops in Afghanistan and the Middle East forever but we need to be responsible on how we leave. We owe it to the people we claim to care about.
China put out an announcement yesterday asking the Taliban to negotiate peace with the Afghan president. Of course they didn't mean it. Today the Afghan president fled the country.
Civilian flights at Kabul's airport have been cancelled since the Taliban has arrived. The Taliban has release photos of themselves in the Presidential Palace. Military flights are still happening and videos showing thousands of Afghani's pleading for a flight out of there. The Taliban will execute those who are our friends and rape their wives and kids.
After the Taliban names the country "Islamic Republic of Afghanistan", China will humiliate us by officially recognizing the name and new government of Afghanistan at the UN. The Taliban will have victory parades in our military equipment. Our allies such as Taiwan will wonder how reliable we are to their future.
I know an Afghani living in America. Before 9/11 he told me about life back home. The authorities would show up at a soccer game and in front of people, chop off prisoners hands for stealing, chop off their feet for running away from authorities, and chop off their heads for worse offenses. No judge, no jury and no trial. You have to trust the police that those prisoners were guilty.
Afghanistan will go back to the Stone Ages and stone women who attempt to read books.
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It was an absolutely stupid, foolish, idiotic idea to remove troops from Afghanistan. The Taliban are retaking the country, what did the US think would happen? The Taliban now have the equipment and weaponry we gave to the Afghan military and are stronger than ever. Stupid, stupid move.
It was either that, or expand the war. Promises for our withdrawal in May were made long ago, our in exchange for safe passage. If that holds, and the airport is not directly attacked with high casualties, fine by me.
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Did I hear they'll put women in their place :D
Problem always was that the Afghan Army was never going to be reliable. As this shows it doesn't matter how many years pass they always act the same, they change sides where their self interests lay, the prime one being self preservation so can't blame them really. The only thing that kept them from doing so o date was a large US/UK army presence so their self preservation was secure. As we know of the Taliban they are not one cohesive force but are made up of many groups. A large part of the Taliban is probably likely to be defected Afghan Army forces, hence why he Taliban advanced so quickly after we left as Afghan Army forces switched sides thereby quickly giving territory to the Taliban, in name at least.
My guessing on how this works is essentially the Taliban offers sweeteners to the Afghan forces, control of local tax revenue, land, poppy drug growing areas, etc that or risk their lives fighting them, their families, etc. With US/UK forces gone the self survival option kicked in and they switched sides and got better off financially and saved their lives. Anyhow the bigger the Taliban force got the more they could threaten to crush smaller forces so the more easier it becomes to persuade the smaller force to avoid almost certain destruction and the loss of their lives and switch sides.
The only way to avoid this would be to permanently station a foreign US/UK army out there forever. That is a financially costly undertaking and one that is financially burdensome to keep up. Once our economies got hit by the virus pandemic and our governments are now in dire straits financially it's not something we can do anymore.
Main problem from the outset was that Bush & Blair failed to understand the Afghanistan problem and it's country and work on a strategy that took into account how things work out there.
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USA fucked up
UN fucked up
EU fucked up
Afghanistan is a fucked up country and it will never be anything else. Better leave it to become a Khalifate and all muslims that desire that can move there. Just put an iron ring around the country and don't let anyone leave.. if you enter - see ya never
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I am simply sick over the killed and maimed USA (and allied) military personnel . . . all in vain.
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US officials say 7 killed in Kabul airport evacuation chaos
KABUL, Afghanistan (AP) — Thousands of Afghans rushed onto the tarmac of Kabul's international airport Monday, so desperate to escape the Taliban capture of their country that they held onto an American military jet as it took off and plunged to death in chaos that killed at least seven people, U.S. officials said.
The crowds of people rushing the airport came as the Taliban enforced their rule over the wider capital after a lightning advance across the country that took just over a week to dethrone the country's Western-backed government. While there were no major reports of abuses, many stayed home and remained fearful as the insurgents' advance saw prisons emptied and armories looted.
The Taliban swept into Kabul on Sunday (http://apnews.com/article/afghanistan-taliban-kabul-bagram-e1ed33fe0c665ee67ba132c51b8e32a5) after President Ashraf Ghani fled the country, bringing an end to a two-decade campaign in which the U.S. and its allies had tried to transform Afghanistan. The country's Western-trained security forces collapsed or fled, ahead of the planned withdrawal of the last American troops at the end of the month.
Residents raced to Kabul's international airport (http://apnews.com/article/business-kabul-7a71189f738996fbf233c97000f2fdbb), where the “civilian side” was closed until further notice, according to Afghanistan’s Civil Aviation Authority. The U.S. military and other Western forces continued to organize evacuations.
MORE [w/video] --- http://www.aol.com/news/ap-sources-seven-people-dead-143451082-145334822.html
This stuff also happened in Vietnam.
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Russia says Afghan president fled with cars and helicopter full of cash - RIA
MOSCOW, Aug 16 (Reuters) - Russia's embassy in Kabul said on Monday that Afghan President Ashraf Ghani had fled the country with four cars and a helicopter full of cash and had to leave some money behind as it would not all fit in, the RIA news agency reported.
Ghani, whose current whereabouts are unknown, said he left Afghanistan on Sunday as the Taliban entered Kabul virtually unopposed. He said he wanted to avoid bloodshed. read more (http://www.reuters.com/world/asia-pacific/ashraf-ghani-departing-afghan-president-who-failed-make-peace-with-taliban-2021-08-15/)
Russia has said it will retain a diplomatic presence in Kabul and hopes to develop ties with the Taliban even as it says it is no rush to recognise them as the country's rulers and will closely observe their behaviour.
http://www.reuters.com/world/asia-pacific/russia-says-afghan-president-fled-with-cars-helicopter-full-cash-ria-2021-08-16/
"As for the collapse of the (outgoing) regime, it is most eloquently characterised by the way Ghani fled Afghanistan," Nikita Ishchenko, a spokesman for the Russian embassy in Kabul, was quoted as saying by RIA.
"Four cars were full of money, they tried to stuff another part of the money into a helicopter, but not all of it fit. And some of the money was left lying on the tarmac," he was quoted as saying.
http://www.reuters.com/world/asia-pacific/russia-says-afghan-president-fled-with-cars-helicopter-full-cash-ria-2021-08-16/
Gee! Lucky for him! (http://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/Smileys/DarkB/rolleyes.gif)
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Profits and poppy: Afghanistan's illegal drug trade a boon for Taliban
WASHINGTON, Aug 16 (Reuters) - The United States spent more than $8 billion over 15 years on efforts to deprive the Taliban of their profits from Afghanistan's opium and heroin trade, from poppy eradication to airstrikes and raids on suspected labs.
That strategy failed.
As the United States wraps up its longest war, Afghanistan remains the world's biggest illicit opiate supplier and looks certain to remain so as the Taliban is on the brink of taking power in Kabul, said current and former U.S. and U.N. officials and experts.
The latest from Afghanistan- Shops close, security guards flee in Afghan capital (http://www.reuters.com/world/asia-pacific/shops-close-security-guards-flee-afghan-capital-2021-08-16/)
- Taliban surge exposes U.S. failure (http://www.reuters.com/world/asia-pacific/taliban-surge-exposes-failure-us-efforts-build-afghan-army-2021-08-15/) to build Afghan army
- Timeline: The Taliban's rapid advance (http://www.reuters.com/world/timeline-talibans-rapid-advance-across-afghanistan-2021-08-15/)
Widespread destruction during the war, millions uprooted from their homes, foreign aid cuts, and losses of local spending by departed U.S.-led foreign troops are fueling an economic and humanitarian crisis that is likely to leave many destitute Afghans dependent on the narcotics trade for survival.
http://www.reuters.com/world/asia-pacific/profits-poppy-afghanistans-illegal-drug-trade-boon-taliban-2021-08-16/
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Finally we allowed Afghans to govern Afghanistan themselves. This is a problem why? When OBL left Afghanistan and hid in Pakistan, we should've left then.
The US had installed so many cruel dictators all over the world that caused so many casualties and deaths, but we need to invade and occupy a country because they harbored an idiot behind 911?
We could've snuffed the idiot out without invading an entire nation. Exactly how they did it in that Pakistani compound.
Biden on July 8th:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2_e8oSxQtSk
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Russia says Afghan president fled with cars and helicopter full of cash
The more I think about it the more I would like to see Ghani deported from every country he runs to.....No doubt though, JB would take him in just like Carter did the Shah.
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I'm okay with Afghanis governing themselves but with a peace deal in hand where nobody gets violent when we leave. If we have to leave without a peace deal, we evacuate citizens before troops which is common sense.
A journalists said hundreds like him are trapped in Kabul. I'm sure everyone of them and their families are going to be slaughtered if they wrote a hit piece on the Taliban in the past. Its a matter of survival for those people. Some citizens looking to gain favor with their new masters will turn in citizens and journalists who they know said something bad about the Taliban. It'll be like Nazis rounding up the jews that got reported.
The mainstream media probably not going to show you all the videos since they don't want Biden to look so bad. Mass people at the airport on the runway. American military choppers swooped down to clear the runways. Military cargo plane takes off with people on the exterior hanging on. About a half dozen people fall to their deaths after the plane takes off. The other option is to wait for the Taliban to provide them with a slow painful death.
Taliban took over $700 million dollar American Embassy. Will probably give it to China. China put out a statement today saying their eager to do business with the Taliban. This all didn't happen 'unexpectedly' folks. It was planned.
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I dug up an old email I sent to a friend of mine in June of 2003. What I said then applies today. You can never win a war in afghanistan. It doesn't matter if you stay there 5 years, 10 years, 20 years, or a century. The moment we leave it will fall apart. They do not want democracy, they want theocracy. It's run by warlords who's allegiances change at the drop of a hat. The only way anyone could win in Afghanistan would be via genocide, wiping out the entire population of the country, and even then the Taliban would be hiding in Pakistan just waiting for the right moment to return. "All the war in Afghanistan will do is bankrupt the country,," and that's what it has done. All the Hawks who insisted we stay and fight indefinitely would have sung a completely different tune if the politicians said we will have to raise your taxes in order to pay for this war in Afghanistan and in Iraq. Prior to George W., No president in the history of the U.S. started a war (Iraq) and cut taxes. The beginning of the end was when he did so. Our national debt, which actually went down during 2 years of the Clinton administration, ballooned, and only got worse under Obama and Trump. Now there is no hope of change for the better. When we lose our status as the world's reserve currency, one will be able look back and pinpoint the outset of that loss. Two wars while lowering taxes on the wealthiest Americans. It made them wealthier, but did zero for the middle class. All the loves lost and we gained nothing. It merely weakened us for other challenges (Iran, China, Russia).
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I'm okay with Afghanis governing themselves but with a peace deal in hand where nobody gets violent when we leave. If we have to leave without a peace deal, we evacuate citizens before troops which is common sense...
Once again, Pentagon intelligence were either way off in their assessment/intelligence, or it was clearly stupid to actually even 'believe' the Talibans would uphold their end of this deal. US generals believed the Talibans will eventually take over the country in the ensuing '18 months', with which Biden declared it's highly unlikely that the Talibans will, or can, take over. I don't blame Biden for this wacky Pentagon intelligence.
Over our country’s 20 years at war in Afghanistan, America has sent its finest young men and women, invested nearly $1 trillion dollars, trained over 300,000 Afghan soldiers and police, equipped them with state-of-the-art military equipment, and maintained their air force as part of the longest war in U.S. history...
http://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/statements-releases/2021/08/14/statement-by-president-joe-biden-on-afghanistan/ (http://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/statements-releases/2021/08/14/statement-by-president-joe-biden-on-afghanistan/)
All the money did was enriched the tribal leaders in the country.
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Guys, regardless if you think we shouldn't be there or the result would be the same no matter how we left, we should make an attempt to leave in a responsible way. We owe it to the people there that we gave hope to. Not only is our reputation at stake, people's lives are at stake. The Pentagon last year that gave Trump good advice to only leave with a peace deal in hand is the same Pentagon that is advising Biden this year. Their advice hasn't change but it wasn't accepted by Biden.
Watch this video of an Afghani girl crying. She looks like she could be living in a Western country but she's in Afghanistan. She knows life is over for her. She knows her future will be painful.
http://t.me/WeTheMedia/29915 (http://t.me/WeTheMedia/29915)
There's Tribal mentality in Afghanistan and some of those guy's thinking is no different than the warriors in Genghis Khan's time. They will go to villages that were friendly with us and confiscate their livestock and turn their children into sex slaves for Taliban soldiers. Children will be spoils of war. Look at the fear in those people's eyes if you can stomach it. Imagine if that were you and your family. People who you thought were your friends in America irresponsibly abandoned you but you're still at their mercy hoping they'll rescue you from the pain, suffering or death that the Taliban will bring your family. You won't see our mainstream media reporting the worst crimes against humanity in their attempt to soften the criticism against Biden. Next week they'll probably talk about the increasing shark attacks off the coast of Florida to take our minds off what we've done.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9883367/Taliban-going-door-door-forcibly-marrying-girls-young-TWELVE.html?ito=native_share_article-masthead (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9883367/Taliban-going-door-door-forcibly-marrying-girls-young-TWELVE.html?ito=native_share_article-masthead)
What is going on is not what the average American wants and doesn't reflect American values. We do not want this and we are not celebrating. We would not have voted in leaders to do something like this. You guys know how I feel about the election and I feel China is currently involved in our foreign and domestic policies. See how quickly China filled in the void considering we haven't fully left Afghanistan yet? Border crisis, pandemic crisis, inflation crisis, and now this crisis that are all by design. They want never ending crisis. This is not based off bad decisions. They know what they are doing. They want misery and suffering. Constant complaining isn't going to change things for the better. We need more action and less talk otherwise we are going to get more of the same.
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BillyB-
There's 'crisis' everywhere. Haiti, Belarus, Lebanon, Syria, Yemen, Libya, So. Africa, Hong Kong...etc. Not to mention homelessness and opioid epidemic here at home. Enough.
We have simply been incompetent with the governments and leaders we've elected in the recent past.
We're the ones who reneged on this peace deal. We didn't leave when we originally said we will. The US hasn't suffered any casualty since the peace was brokered, that much you could at least look at. To this day, despite thousands of troops in Kabul, we couldn't even managed safe passage from the US embassy to Kabul's airport, a 2-mile long surface street even after trillions of dollars and a 20-year stay, that we had to fly between the two destinations in helicopters. Talibans can very easily make this far more bloodier if they really wanted to.
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USA fucked up
UN fucked up
EU fucked up
Afghanistan is a fucked up country and it will never be anything else. Better leave it to become a Khalifate and all muslims that desire that can move there. Just put an iron ring around the country and don't let anyone leave.. if you enter - see ya never
They have never had a 30% literacy rate. Team Obama bumped them up 10 points
or so but they were using fake math and making up the numbers in the countryside.
Nobody outside of Kabul can read. The word for cousin and enemy are the same.
jb once said that they should have made the place a glass parking lot and he wasn't
wrong.
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Having been to Afghanistan on 3 different occasions, it pains me to think of the wonderful people I worked with there. They must be terrified now. It’s so sad on so many levels.
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They have never had a 30% literacy rate. Team Obama bumped them up 10 points
or so but they were using fake math and making up the numbers in the countryside.
Nobody outside of Kabul can read. The word for cousin and enemy are the same.
jb once said that they should have made the place a glass parking lot and he wasn't
wrong.
We have about 200 000 afghani refugees here in Sweden, about 99.99999% are men in their 20-40's even though they all try to come forward as 17 to be treated as a lone-coming child and get instant permit to stay. (AND SUCCEED!)
If they went back with a AK in their hands they could easily have helped defeat the Talibans with a little training, but they don't want to, they don't want to live there. They don't want that country, they know what a shithole it is, 50-60% of them never even lived in Afghanistan, they came directly from Iran. Many others from Pakistan.
Use your nukes I say.. flatten it to a big solar array and we can harvest the energy created here in the west.
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Idk, doesn't sound too bad, I could go there become a religious Guru to the Taliban get my own hot Afghani sex slave woman and live in a country where feminism is banned, yeppee!!!
2022 could see me all garbed up in some Mosque in Afghanistan with my dating problems solved me thinks :D
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Having been to Afghanistan on 3 different occasions, it pains me to think of the wonderful people I worked with there. They must be terrified now. It’s so sad on so many levels.
I know Vietnam veterans who felt the same about what happened in Vietnam. You know there are good people in Afghanistan and you developed a bond with them. They are innocent of the politics and games being played with their lives.
Regardless of how our leaders got us there, they need to get us and our friends out responsibly. Abandoning those who helped us root out terrorists is backstabbing them. When lives are on the line, there are zero excuses for anything less than making the best effort. How we left Afghanistan and abandoned our friends there is a disgrace and people all over the world recognizes it for what it is. Anybody who thinks we couldn't have been more responsible, you're putting yourself in the same group as Biden.
2000+ American soldiers died there for what? We left giving the Taliban all our equipment and they will be taking the equipment of the Afghan army making them more powerful than ever.
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The US had a relatively efficient withdrawal from Iraq. It didn't help that a short time later a makeshift ragtag militants (ISIS) took over despite all the money spent 'training' Iraq's military.
Security/sanity/responsibility in these nations doesn't lie with us, its' with their own population. 2001 Afghanistan's population grew by over 10 million by 2020 (21.1 - 33.2). This period saw a full generation come to 'military age'. If they saw anything we did as worth saving and protecting for the benefit of their own nation, then it can't possibly be that difficult to stop any transgressor/s. You are not witnessing any of that. You really don't need to ask why...
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It was either that, or expand the war. Promises for our withdrawal in May were made long ago, our in exchange for safe passage. If that holds, and the airport is not directly attacked with high casualties, fine by me.
We're turning our back on the Afghans. We gave them several years of what living in the 21st century feels like and now they go back to living in hell.
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We left giving the Taliban all our equipment and they will be taking the equipment of the Afghan army making them more powerful than ever.
From the pics in the news article it looks like they prefer to stick to their old tried & tested AK-47, amazing the longevity & effectiveness of that weapon, still up there with the best even in this day and age.
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It's looking like all that time, money, effort, bother and lives lost out there was all a waste of time. I never thought in the first place it was worth the hassle the way Bush & Blair went about it. Seems their strategy was all wrong and they never did their homework to learn from the Soviets mistakes out there. Can't think life is going to be very easy for the Afghan people now that the Taliban are back in power. Hardship & the Coronavirus knocking around for them I would have thought. Little to no aid from the west forthcoming I would reckon.
It isn't the US's responsibility to be there.
At one point they harbored terrorists and if it becomes a staging ground for terrorism then I'm sure we will be bombing them again (If we ever stop to begin with). If they pose no direct threat to us in terms of terrorism, than they can live the way they want.
We (The US) have too many responsibilities to handle here at home.
Fathertime!
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If they went back with a AK in their hands they could easily have helped defeat the Talibans with a little training, but they don't want to, they don't want to live there. They don't want that country, they know what a shithole it is, 50-60% of them never even lived in Afghanistan, they came directly from Iran. Many others from Pakistan.
Use your nukes I say.. flatten it to a big solar array and we can harvest the energy created here in the west.
We lost, using nuclear weapons now is tantamount to throwing a tantrum, at the world's expense. I say we take our lumps and move on to other items on the agenda. I'm sure there are plenty of good people in Afghanistan. If the taliban were so bad and unpopular, they would have been extinct by now. They have withstood decades of US bombing and have done nothing but get stronger. It seems clear the populace is more supportive of them, than we would like. Let's move on.
Fathertime!
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From the pics in the news article it looks like they prefer to stick to their old tried & tested AK-47, amazing the longevity & effectiveness of that weapon, still up there with the best even in this day and age.
Obama used American taxpayer money to buy them Russian arms and military equipment in his Reset, let's be friends moment. Over time, they will be replacing Russian with Chinese military equipment. China quickly inserted themselves into Afghanistan and is going to guarantee no NATO member comes back.
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I'm actually shocked CNN hammered Biden completely and says he owns this mess. They told the truth. Biden pulled 2500 troops out and then within days had to send more than double the amount back for damage control. They said Biden ignored the good advice he was given months ago. They also showed footage of people hanging onto the exterior plane on the runway and later falling to their death after the plane is in the air. Is MSM preparing Biden for a fall?
CNN… on Vimeo (http://vimeo.com/588077418)
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They have never had a 30% literacy rate. Team Obama bumped them up 10 points or so but they were using fake math and making up the numbers in the countryside.
Nobody outside of Kabul can read. The word for cousin and enemy are the same.
jb once said that they should have made the place a glass parking lot and he wasn't
wrong.
The literacy rate is 43%.
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We're turning our back on the Afghans. We gave them several years of what living in the 21st century feels like and now they go back to living in hell.
Sometimes, mhr7, we can only plant a seed and give water for a while. The rest is not up to us.
Maybe their appetite has been whetted, and folks there will find ways to keep it growing.
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Obama used American taxpayer money to buy them Russian arms and military equipment in his Reset, let's be friends moment. Over time, they will be replacing Russian with Chinese military equipment. China quickly inserted themselves into Afghanistan and is going to guarantee no NATO member comes back.
They'll also have these:
http://www.google.com/amp/s/nationalpost.com/news/canada/why-the-114-year-old-lee-enfield-rifle-is-only-now-being-retired-by-the-canadian-armed-forces/wcm/8ae073f8-7d26-44e9-9550-61219cfdda7e/amp/
Another gun classic but with an incredible range, far greater than an AK47, only downside is the reload time. Still great in sniper situations.
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I'm actually shocked CNN hammered Biden completely and says he owns this mess. They told the truth. Biden pulled 2500 troops out and then within days had to send more than double the amount back for damage control. They said Biden ignored the good advice he was given months ago. They also showed footage of people hanging onto the exterior plane on the runway and later falling to their death after the plane is in the air. Is MSM preparing Biden for a fall?
CNN… on Vimeo (http://vimeo.com/588077418)
Other nations are flying out their dual citizens and others that supported their missions. i.e. Germany and France.
The issue is mostly optical. Folks got scared, abandoned lines, jumped fences, whatever and made a run to the planes, putting themselves and the planes in danger.
Germans report the situation has stabilized. They only took 7 back yesterday, aborting loading early as they didn't want folks getting caught up in the propellers, causing a PR shitstorm. Two planes now bringing folks to Germany. The US pilot yesterday made a bad call, or obeyed bad orders by insisting on taking off. An aircraft commander has the final call. If aware of the situation, the pilot put not only the folks hanging onto the plane in grave danger, but the aircraft and all those inside as well. Jet engines are designed to survive ingesting some small birds and such, but not persons. The visuals, of course, were terrible, and upsetting.
I've seen no reports of the Taliban interfering with the evacuation efforts to any great extent. If they want to stand as a government, they likely have been told, and realized, they will have to act and take responsibilities as one.
Anyway lets hope for the best instead of hyping the worst possible outcomes. Only time will tell.
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The literacy rate is 43%.
So says the internet, who did the literacy test? Was it Google?
Did they ONLY check in Kabul because they would probably be beheaded in the
Rural areas, 71 per cent of the population live in rural areas. Very few women
in the rural areas go to school.
"Kem estimated that only 2 to 5 percent of Afghan recruits could read at a third-grade level despite efforts by the United States to enroll millions of Afghan children in school over the previous decade. “The literacy was just insurmountable,” he said in an Army oral-history interview"
http://www.washingtonpost.com/investigations/afghan-security-forces-capabilities/2021/08/15/052a45e2-fdc7-11eb-a664-4f6de3e17ff0_story.html
Afghan Army's 90% Illiteracy Rate Big Training Obstacle
http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2009/09/afghan_armys_90_percent_illite.html
Illiteracy undermines Afghan army training
Afghan army recruit Shahidullah Ahmadi can't read — and neither can nine out of 10
soldiers in the Afghan National Army.
http://www.nbcnews.com/id/wbna32844807
Fifty-five per cent of Afghan children under the age of five cannot develop physically
or mentally as they should, due to chronic nutritional deficiency.
http://www.wvi.org/afghanistan/article/latrines-sanitation-afghan-communities
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Idk, doesn't sound too bad, I could go there become a religious Guru to the Taliban get my own hot Afghani sex slave woman and live in a country where feminism is banned, yeppee!!!
2022 could see me all garbed up in some Mosque in Afghanistan with my dating problems solved me thinks :D
Excellent plan! Imagine all the women you could acquire for some goats
and a donkey or two. Bring along some nice healthy UK goats
Boer Goats for Sale 5 Nannies 2kids only £550
http://www.newsnow.co.uk/classifieds/pets-animals/sap/wpzdd6fXbQ0EE16WaCk9XQ?slot=1
If less than half of Afghan women have used toilet paper, what percentage
shave their legs or their armpits I wonder? What percentage have most of
their teeth?
Surely you will get used to the smell eventually. I am not so sure that a
fatty from Blighty who uses toothpaste every day wouldn't be preferable.
I am sure that nobody would question your expertise on the Koran since
most of them can't read anyway. I doubt that they would put your head
on a pike, you should do it!
Udachi!
Bill
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The US pilot yesterday made a bad call, or obeyed bad orders by insisting on taking off. An aircraft commander has the final call. If aware of the situation, the pilot put not only the folks hanging onto the plane in grave danger, but the aircraft and all those inside as well. Jet engines are designed to survive ingesting some small birds and such, but not persons. The visuals, of course, were terrible, and upsetting.
Why blame it on the aircraft pilot? He/She had to follow orders and was probably ordered to take off knowing humans on the exterior of the plane would freeze at high altitude or blow off falling to their death. I wonder if the people at the State Department making the calls were the same people making the calls at Bengazi.
Viewer discretion is advised. Somebody needs to be held accountable for this.
http://t.me/disclosetv/4084 (http://t.me/disclosetv/4084)
We evacuated troops before civilians. Even if you don't care about Afghanis, there are still 10,000 American citizens stuck in Afghanistan. Pulling out our citizens and friends before troops is common sense. This Build Back Better program isn't looking too good right now. People are going on MSM saying they provided plans for the government to pull out the proper way and it was ignored. They said they had a list of 80K+ Afghanis that needed to get out before America leaving the country. They had reports that the Afghan military can't be depended on because they aren't getting paid and moral is low. Our 2500 troops Trump left there kept everybody relatively safe while the Afghan army did most of the fighting. Seeing us leave broke what spirit they had left.
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I listened very carefully to Biden's address to the nation regarding Afghanistan yesterday. I admit to giving him the utmost respect for his reasons and decision he shared to the American people to stand firm. More importantly, to own up to the consequences of that decision. Absolutely nothing Biden said in that address I disagree with.
Trump was right (again). America's biggest enemy of the people today is the mainstream media.
Pres. Ghani assured Biden in June and July that the Afghans are prepared for any possible confrontation the Talibans may bring. This was proven wrong at the 11th hour. After years of training, trillion of dollars spent, arming a robust army of 300,000; to see it wither in an instant cannot be blamed on Biden. If Afghans won't fight for their freedom and country, why should Americans continue to shed its blood in that land. To the Talibans' credit, violence was minimize. They are allowing foreigners safe passage so far. While it remains to be seen, offering amnesty to Afghans who sided with the allies during the occupation.
We were wrong to invade and attempt to nation-build any country. We succeeded in achieving the principal reason why we went to Afghanistan in the first place, with the support of 97% of Americans.
The Talibans vowed they will honor one of the main condition of the peace brokered by the Trump administration. The Taliban will never again harbor any militant who pledges harm to another nation. If this proves true, we have achieved what we went to Afghanistan to begin with. In exchange, the US vowed to recognize the Talibans as a legitimate governing, political entity in their nation. Time will tell.
The nation building mission, unfortunately, was a bad call. Time told us so, time and again.
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So says the internet, who did the literacy test? Was it Google?
Did they ONLY check in Kabul because they would probably be beheaded in the
Rural areas, 71 per cent of the population live in rural areas. Very few women
in the rural areas go to school.
"Kem estimated that only 2 to 5 percent of Afghan recruits could read at a third-grade level despite efforts by the United States to enroll millions of Afghan children in school over the previous decade. “The literacy was just insurmountable,” he said in an Army oral-history interview"
http://www.washingtonpost.com/investigations/afghan-security-forces-capabilities/2021/08/15/052a45e2-fdc7-11eb-a664-4f6de3e17ff0_story.html (http://www.washingtonpost.com/investigations/afghan-security-forces-capabilities/2021/08/15/052a45e2-fdc7-11eb-a664-4f6de3e17ff0_story.html)
Afghan Army's 90% Illiteracy Rate Big Training Obstacle
http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2009/09/afghan_armys_90_percent_illite.html (http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2009/09/afghan_armys_90_percent_illite.html)
Illiteracy undermines Afghan army training
Afghan army recruit Shahidullah Ahmadi can't read — and neither can nine out of 10
soldiers in the Afghan National Army.
http://www.nbcnews.com/id/wbna32844807 (http://www.nbcnews.com/id/wbna32844807)
Fifty-five per cent of Afghan children under the age of five cannot develop physically
or mentally as they should, due to chronic nutritional deficiency.
http://www.wvi.org/afghanistan/article/latrines-sanitation-afghan-communities (http://www.wvi.org/afghanistan/article/latrines-sanitation-afghan-communities)
For almost two decades, the UN has been training Afghans to operate schools. My statistic is from the UN, and their statistics on these matters tend to be accurate.
9 million of Afghanistan's roughly 11 million children attend school, so it's not restricted to cities. That is probably what is most at risk, primarily for girls.
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Seeing us leave broke what spirit they had left.
Their spirit was broken long ago, by tweet.
http://www.militarytimes.com/news/your-military/2020/10/08/taliban-cheer-trump-tweet-promising-early-us-troop-withdrawal-from-afghanistan/
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I listened very carefully to Biden's address to the nation regarding Afghanistan yesterday. I admit to giving him the utmost respect for his reasons and decision he shared to the American people to stand firm. More importantly, to own up to the consequences of that decision. Absolutely nothing Biden said in that address I disagree with.
It was a decent speech because he didn't write it. At the end of the teleprompter it said "Leave now". They knew reporters were going to ask some really hard questions so he walked away like a coward. The words were good, the action was not. He didn't truly own the chaos in Kabul.
Most Americans agree we need to leave Afghanistan. Most of us are having issues about the way we left. Little or no regard for innocent human lives who were are friends over their. Our troops were ordered to leave before our own citizens. We don't know the full extent of the damage yet. There is a chance some American English school teacher in a remote village couldn't make it back to Kabul and will later be on tv denouncing America right before her head gets chopped off. The Taliban knows Biden isn't coming back over something like that. They are going to make examples and show the world we aren't reliable or take care of our own and humiliate us by driving our equipment we abandoned in a hasty retreat in a victory parade. So what some may say. These events will hurt America's ability to perform on the world stage for years or decades since many nations won't recognize us as a responsible world leader. China will be a winner in this event and when it comes to survival, nations will side with a winner even if the winner is not a good guy.
If Afghans won't fight for their freedom and country, why should Americans continue to shed its blood in that land.
There's an information war that crushed their moral. Biden in the speech said we pay for the army but soldiers aren't getting paid. The Taliban puts out propaganda saying "We are brothers and you've sided with Great Satan" and "Great Satan will abandon you". Once they realize the Taliban was right they were abandoned without a peace deal to guarantee their survival, of course many soldiers are going to run.
Khrushchev said he was going to take America without firing a single shot. How does something like that happen? We too are in an information war that will affect our survival as a nation. This war is more important than the one in Afghanistan. We criticize the Afghan Army but look at us. Some of us don't know what is going on and if we don't think there is a problem, we won't take action to correct the problem. From my observations, those people tend to be on the left. There are some soldiers in the Afghan army like that too. Some of us know there's a problem but we are too weak lacking the courage to take action or we are too lazy. From my observations, those people tend to be on the right. There are some soldiers in the Afghan army like that too. Who are we to criticize the Afghan army for failing to defend their country. There are powerful people influencing them and there are powerful people influencing us, manipulating our minds neutralizing our ability to see a problem or if we see, we refuse to act. I hope my signature line helps people understand the magnitude of the situation and start figuring it out so we can win this information war. When people can't figure it out and don't take preventive measures, they'll lose their freedoms and eventually their country. Just ask the Afghanis and Venezuelans how things are going. Once you lose it all, it's hard to get it back.
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Their spirit was broken long ago, by tweet.
http://www.militarytimes.com/news/your-military/2020/10/08/taliban-cheer-trump-tweet-promising-early-us-troop-withdrawal-from-afghanistan/ (http://www.militarytimes.com/news/your-military/2020/10/08/taliban-cheer-trump-tweet-promising-early-us-troop-withdrawal-from-afghanistan/)
...and you keep harping you only deal in 'facts'. US military is not ready to leave Afghanistan et al if it had its way. It handed Biden an erroneous intelligence, unless you're telling me Biden completely ignored every warning that Pentagon gave him that the money we spent training Afghanistan's army was for naught, and they knew they wouldn't fight once the Taliban came. The military couldn't play Biden, nor Trump, the way they played Obama like an idiot.
US military brass generally didn't like Trump because Trump wanted to pull the US out of all these stupid hot zones, including getting the f@ck out of useless NATO, and useless UN if he could.
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GQ,
The US made a deal. Short extension aside, Biden held our part of the deal and did not renege on it.
To not do so would mean either prolonging another 20 years, or a very nasty withdrawal.
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GQ, I've read recent posts from retired officers that included generals that can now speak freely. They don't like these endless wars. They don't like seeing civilians and their troops being killed for no valid reason. They don't like the promises they made to allies not being kept by new management. They don't like seeing that we're using $75,000 hellfire missiles to take out $50 Taliban communication repeaters duct taped to a pole made of PVC. You're assuming they don't care about anything but war and intentionally deceiving whichever president is in office so they can play endless wargames. A handful may be like that but I believe most won't do that. If you think our generals are worse than our politicians, then politicians successfully fooled us so we assign blame on others instead of them, who control the purse strings of war.
Ret. General Flynn, who ran military Intelligence, says one of the most important books on war we should read is the 1935 "War is a Racket". I read a brief description of the book which basically says profit is made off human suffering. It says we pay the bills and others in industry makes the profit. It also tells us how to end the racket. Gen Flynn is one of the leaders in this fight to making sure we can elect good people to run this nation. I've woken up. If we don't take action for the better, we should expect never ending wars and human suffering on a higher frequency than normal.
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The full Biden address yesterday. I couldn't care less if this was scripted because he's out there in front of all of us speaking and owning up to things he decided upon. Bush wasn't this courageous, not Trump and certainly not Obama. How refreshing.
Stop the partisanship for a change...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RmioEI6tzCk
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The full Biden address yesterday. I couldn't care less if this was scripted because he's out there in front of all of us speaking and owning up to things he decided upon. Bush wasn't this courageous, not Trump and certainly not Obama.
If Biden was so courageous, why did he turn his back on the press [review the last seconds of the clip]...mosey on out and run on aboard his chopper and return to Camp David and resume his [much deserved?] vacation ??
"Owned up"? More like CYA'd up to me.
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If Biden was so courageous, why did he turn his back on the press [review the last seconds of the clip]...mosey on out and run on aboard his chopper and return to Camp David and resume his [much deserved?] vacation ??
"Owned up"? More like CYA'd up to me.
When you finally understand the difference between a national address from a press conference, you will soon find that what you seek, grasshopper.
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If Biden was so courageous, why did he turn his back on the press [review the last seconds of the clip]...mosey on out and run on aboard his chopper and return to Camp David and resume his [much deserved?] vacation ??
"Owned up"? More like CYA'd up to me.
He spoke up and stated his case...your comments are that of the typical partisan hack, as usual. Biden wasn't responsible for the past 20 years. He was the one to finally exit us, honoring trump's pledge. I agree with the both of them on that one. I'm sure it wasn't perfect but it never was going to be. I'm glad we are done there. Hopefully our military/leadership doesn't find another land to occupy.
Fathertime!
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China will be a winner in this event and when it comes to survival, nations will side with a winner even if the winner is not a good guy.[/size][/font]
Who is to say China won't be the good guy, or at least the decent guy? Right now we (The US) are considered the bad guy, and probably rightfully so. If Afghanistan's govt decides to align with China, that is their choice, and perhaps a good one. We spent an extra 18 or so years making asses of ourselves in another country and the result is working out badly. I'm not sure what the final count of women/children dead, but it's enough make us rather disliked among many.
Fathertime!
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your comments are that of the typical partisan hack, as usual.
But yours never are huh? (http://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/Smileys/DarkB/cheesy.gif) He spoke up and stated his case
He spoke up and covered his ass. A true leader takes responsibility and doesn't blame everyone else for issues and problems. 4:55 into the clip---JB blames the Afghan leadership...5:00--blames the Afghan army... Another thing--why were there 2500 non combatant personnel in Afghanistan? That is more than there were US troops left. Whose idea was it to turn Afghanistan into a stalwart liberal country with women representation who had basically no education themselves? Answer-- Obama and Clinton and yet Biden stood there [see the clip] and said there was not supposed to be a nation building intention there.
I don't mind being called a political hack but I contend I am not the only one.
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Of course the lives lost are immeasurable, but putting this aside, it is estimated the US spent $2.26 trillion dollars in this war since it started. And since these are mostly borrowed money, by the time we paid it all off long after this withdrawal, it is estimated that the ultimate cost will be at $6.5 trillion.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/hanktucker/2021/08/16/the-war-in-afghanistan-cost-america-300-million-per-day-for-20-years-with-big-bills-yet-to-come/amp/
None of that includes the money we borrowed for the Iraq war.
And of course, there were also Syria, Yemen, Libya, Iraq Part II, etc…
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Whose idea was it to turn Afghanistan into a stalwart liberal country with women representation who had basically no education themselves? Answer-- Obama and Clinton
Which president spoke the following words in April 2002?
“We know that true peace will only be achieved when we give the Afghan people the means to achieve their own aspirations. Peace will be achieved by helping Afghanistan develop its own stable government.”
“Afghanistan was the ultimate nation building mission. We had liberated the country from a primitive dictatorship, and we had a moral obligation to leave behind something better. We also had a strategic interest in helping the Afghan people build a free society,”
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It wasn't perfect but it's done, yet you still whine.
What are you blabbering about now? If you read my first post here you would see that I thought was idiotic to send troops to Afghanistan from the onset.
Taliban take over Afghanistan: What we know and what’s next
By JOSEPH KRAUSS yesterday
WHY ARE PEOPLE FLEEING THE COUNTRY?
They’re worried that the country could descend into chaos or the Taliban could carry out revenge attacks against those who worked with the Americans or the government.
Many also fear the Taliban will reimpose the harsh interpretation of Islamic law (http://apnews.com/article/afghanistan-taliban-13304940ec709865ca52aae2d832b963) that they relied on when they ran Afghanistan from 1996 to 2001. Back then, women were barred from attending school or working outside the home. They had to wear the all-encompassing burqa and be accompanied by a male relative whenever they went outside. The Taliban banned music, cut off the hands of thieves and stoned adulterers.
The Taliban have sought to present themselves as a more moderate force in recent years. Since taking over, they have promised to respect women’s rights, forgive those who fought against them and prevent Afghanistan from being used as a base for terror attacks. But many Afghans are skeptical of those promises.
Others released along with Khairkhwa were Mohammed Nabi, who served as chief of security for the Taliban in Qalat; Mohammad Fazl, who according to Human Rights Watch allegedly presided over the mass killing of Shiite Muslims in Afghanistan in 2000 and 2001; Abdul Haq Wasiq, who served as the Taliban deputy minister of intelligence and Mullah Norullah Nori, who was a senior Taliban commander in Mazar-e-Sharif in 2001.
Also Read: Afghan war cost US $2 trillion, interest will pinch every American (http://www.hindustantimes.com/world-news/afghan-war-cost-us-2-trillion-interest-will-pinch-every-american-101629179737345.html)
The 'Gitmo Five' were labelled "hardest of the hardcore" by US intelligence officials who urged Obama to reconsider his decision. However, those warnings were ignored, with assurance that these five terrorists will be kept in Qatar, so that they are not able to indulge in active politics in Afghanistan.
Yeah Right.
(http://images.hindustantimes.com/img/2021/08/17/550x309/000_9KZ9GX_1629183606554_1629183641839.jpg)
Khairullah Khairkhwa (centre) with other members of Taliban's negotiating team, in Doha.(AFP Photo)
He's back and he's pissed.
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...A true leader takes responsibility and doesn't blame everyone else for issues and problems. 4:55 into the clip---JB blames the Afghan leadership...5:00--blames the Afghan army...
LMAO! Stating a fact is not blaming anyone. The idiot Ghani fled with tens of millions of dollars in tow. He assured his government and police force (army) is well prepared to protect their nation. We spent billions training 300,000 Afghans, armed them to the teeth. How does anyone 'doubt' this reality? If there were loss of confidence in our own training method and value assessment, the onus is on our own military brass in Afghanistan. These idiots folded against 75,000 Taliban militants in less than two weeks.
That's not blaming Afghan leadership. That's stating a fact.
Another thing--why were there 2500 non combatant personnel in Afghanistan? That is more than there were US troops left.
Various civilian contractors. There were about 4,000 civilian Americans that died in Afghanistan. Approx. 1,500 more than the military.
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The idiot Ghani fled with tens of millions of dollars in tow.
Allegedly, $169 million in cash.
http://theweek.com/afghanistan/1003879/afghan-president-ashraf-ghani-reportedly-fled-kabul-with-169-million-in-cash (http://theweek.com/afghanistan/1003879/afghan-president-ashraf-ghani-reportedly-fled-kabul-with-169-million-in-cash)
I am certain Ghani is very grateful to the American taxpayer.
The rumour is that he had even more cash on hand, but it wouldn't fit in the helicopter.
http://metro.co.uk/2021/08/18/former-afghan-president-ghani-fled-with-169m-in-helicopter-to-dubai-15113307/
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Anybody, especially world leaders, can make a mess of something on purpose that cost lives and say "I own it" and walk away. That is not taking responsibility.
Today a reporter asked White House press secretary if any world leaders called Biden to coordinate the evacuation of their citizens. They answer was "No". Why should they call somebody for help who just endangered the lives of their citizens unnecessarily? That's political suicide.
The Taliban is in the Afghan Presidential palace not afraid to answer all kinds of questions. When asked about freedom of speech, they said go ask American big tech for censoring millions of people recently. They are already releasing photos of American arms they've confiscated. I'm sure they will be used in killings that make a statement. Their citizens need to understand the weapons of those that abandoned them will be the ones that kill them.
For those who are anti immigration, they way we left Afghanistan is going to bring in much more refugees than if we left with a peace deal in place. The plan is to move up to 10K refugees out of Afghanistan every day till the end of this month but advisors are telling Biden to extend that. Of course it will be extended after we forget about Afghanistan next week. Syria should've taught us something. Next month people are going to be complaining about the massive amount of refugees coming into America and Europe. The writing is on the wall.
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Anybody, especially world leaders, can make a mess of something on purpose that cost lives and say "I own it" and walk away. That is not taking responsibility....
Now you're swaying along with fake news. Biden already said the buck stops with him. Which part of that statement did you not understand? If that isn't taking responsibility, what exactly do you think he should've said instead? Thus far, since February 2020, there hasn't been any US combat casualty in Afghanistan. Contrast that reality to the years beforehand.
He even admitted that he believed they've made every contingency for any possible scenario, with which he then admitted they were wrong.
Biden didn't create this 20-year mess. He put an end to it. He even disagreed with Obama's Afghanistan's 'surge' when he was VP, saying our mission in Afghanistan was met a decade ago. Witnessing what we see and know today in how this situation unfolded, now is as good as any time to leave that wasteland.
Afghanistan is huge news today because of the visualization of the current situation. You do know the US had been aiding (some) Al Qaeda fighters in Yemen in their fight against the Iran-backed Ansar Allah to pacify Saudi Arabia, don't you? Yeah, the same f@cking group we went to Afghanistan to oust in the first place. There's an ongoing strife and famine upon Yemen's citizenry since this proxy war broke out, and yet no cries of justice from the likes of you.
Do you only react to crisis when its on TV? You want crisis, see if this one moves you...
http://www.cdc.gov/drugoverdose/rxrate-maps/index.html
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I am certain Ghani is very grateful to the American taxpayer.
Yeah, I am too. I got to checking what countries like the USA the most. #1 may surprise everyone..... http://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/countries-that-love-americans
Stating a fact is not blaming anyone.
Stated as a matter of fact... "The likelihood of the Taliban overrunning Afghanistan is highly unlikely."~~~~ Joe Biden
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Looks like we're going to landed with 20,000 Afghans as our punishment for this cock up. Not that I remember voting for this war in the first place. Accomodation is already pushed here in the UK so I don't know where they are going to put them all.
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Biden had the guts to finally do the final pull out on his watch It wasn't perfect but it's
done, yet you still whine.
Fathertime!
I 100% totally agree with getting out of Afghanistan. It was Biden's general incompetence
that I have a problem with. He screwed up, OUR people will pay the price.
The Liberal Boston Globe
After the incompetent retreat from Afghanistan, the Biden presidency
http://www.bostonglobe.com/2021/08/16/nation/after-incompetent-retreat-afghanistan-biden-presidency-premised-competency-will-never-be-same/
Liberal Newsweek
Kabul Disaster Like Fall of Saigon, Democrat Debbie Dingell Says
http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/kabul-disaster-like-fall-of-saigon-democrat-debbie-dingell-says/ar-AANlIAY
CNN
Joe Biden is facing a crisis of competence
http://www.cnn.com/2021/08/16/politics/afghanistan-joe-biden-donald-trump-kabul-politics/index.html
Liberal Daily Beast
Even Biden’s Allies Think He Screwed Up Afghanistan
http://www.thedailybeast.com/even-joe-bidens-allies-think-he-screwed-up-afghanistan
Liberal CBS
Desperate Afghans cling to US planes as chaos engulfs Kabul airport; at least 7 dead
http://www.cbs17.com/news/international-news/desperate-afghans-cling-to-us-planes-as-chaos-engulfs-kabul-airport-at-least-7-dead/
Liberal CNN
Biden's botched Afghan exit is a disaster at home and abroad long in the making
(CNN)The debacle of the US defeat and chaotic retreat in Afghanistan is a political disaster
for Joe Biden, whose failure to orchestrate an urgent and orderly exit will further rock a
presidency plagued by crises and stain his legacy.
http://www.cnn.com/2021/08/16/politics/afghanistan-joe-biden-donald-trump-kabul-politics/index.html
NPR
There's A Bipartisan Backlash To How Biden Handled The Withdrawal From Afghanistan
http://www.npr.org/2021/08/16/1028081817/congressional-reaction-to-bidens-afghanistan-withdrawal-has-been-scathing
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Stated as a matter of fact... "The likelihood of the Taliban overrunning Afghanistan is highly unlikely."~~~~ Joe Biden
OY Carambola!
http://www.axios.com/milley-military-intelligence-afghanistan-taliban-503603a0-5599-46cf-94ce-5f3f61a2d3b1.html (http://www.axios.com/milley-military-intelligence-afghanistan-taliban-503603a0-5599-46cf-94ce-5f3f61a2d3b1.html)
Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff said:
The timeframe of a potential collapse was widely estimated, it ranged from weeks to months, even years following our departure. There was nothing that I or anyone else saw that indicated a collapse of this army and this government in 11 days..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ykS6NYqrun8
The buck stops with me!
Enough said.
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Enough said.
Biden blames others for swift collapse in Afghanistan, defends his decision to withdraw troops
President Biden on Aug. 16 blamed multiple entities for the collapse of Afghanistan following his decision to withdraw all remaining U.S. troops. (JM Rieger/The Washington Post)
By
Anne Gearan
August 16, 2021 at 8:51 p.m. EDT
President Biden on Monday acknowledged the “gut-wrenching” spectacle of chaos and desperation in Afghanistan as Americans leave after 20 years, but said he is resolute in his decision to close down a war effort that had long ago lost its way.
Biden largely blamed others for the departure debacle and said the stunning collapse of U.S.-backed Afghan leadership amid a Taliban blitz confirmed that he was right to order the United States out of the country, the focus of anti-terror and democratizing efforts since shortly after the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks on the United States. He admitted that his administration was surprised by swift-moving events that have put the militia group in control, led to the shuttering of the U.S. Embassy and drove thousands to seek refuge by fleeing to the Kabul airport. Biden said he has no regrets.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/biden-afghanistan-speech/2021/08/16/1bdff5e6-feaf-11eb-ba7e-2cf966e88e93_story.html
Biden overruled top generals’ advice
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/afghanistan-biden-us-troop-withdrawl-b1904140.html
Biden administration embroiled in internal blame-shifting amid Afghanistan chaos
http://www.cnn.com/2021/08/17/politics/biden-afghanistan-blame-shifting/index.html
Democrats grapple with Afghanistan fallout after Biden administration ignored their previous warnings
http://www.cnn.com/2021/08/16/politics/democratic-reaction-biden-afghanistan/index.html
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Biden blames others for swift collapse in Afghanistan, defends his decision to withdraw troops
President Biden on Aug. 16 blamed multiple entities for the collapse of Afghanistan following his decision to withdraw all remaining U.S. troops. (JM Rieger/The Washington Post)
By
Anne Gearan
August 16, 2021 at 8:51 p.m. EDT
President Biden on Monday acknowledged the “gut-wrenching” spectacle of chaos and desperation in Afghanistan as Americans leave after 20 years, but said he is resolute in his decision to close down a war effort that had long ago lost its way.
Biden largely blamed others for the departure debacle and said the stunning collapse of U.S.-backed Afghan leadership amid a Taliban blitz confirmed that he was right to order the United States out of the country, the focus of anti-terror and democratizing efforts since shortly after the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks on the United States. He admitted that his administration was surprised by swift-moving events that have put the militia group in control, led to the shuttering of the U.S. Embassy and drove thousands to seek refuge by fleeing to the Kabul airport. Biden said he has no regrets.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/biden-afghanistan-speech/2021/08/16/1bdff5e6-feaf-11eb-ba7e-2cf966e88e93_story.html (http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/biden-afghanistan-speech/2021/08/16/1bdff5e6-feaf-11eb-ba7e-2cf966e88e93_story.html)
Biden overruled top generals’ advice
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/afghanistan-biden-us-troop-withdrawl-b1904140.html (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/afghanistan-biden-us-troop-withdrawl-b1904140.html)
Biden administration embroiled in internal blame-shifting amid Afghanistan chaos
http://www.cnn.com/2021/08/17/politics/biden-afghanistan-blame-shifting/index.html (http://www.cnn.com/2021/08/17/politics/biden-afghanistan-blame-shifting/index.html)
Democrats grapple with Afghanistan fallout after Biden administration ignored their previous warnings
http://www.cnn.com/2021/08/16/politics/democratic-reaction-biden-afghanistan/index.html (http://www.cnn.com/2021/08/16/politics/democratic-reaction-biden-afghanistan/index.html)
It's a 5-words declaration. *The-Buck-Stops-With-Me!* Not quite sure what is proving with you guys to be so difficult to understand. Even the military's general in charge of the withdrawal himself, who have a very direct and personal knowledge of the departure planning and contingencies, didn't expect this takeover in this scale.
Still, Biden said: *The-Buck-Stops-With-Me!*
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I 100% totally agree with getting out of Afghanistan. It was Biden's general incompetence
that I have a problem with. He screwed up, OUR people will pay the price.
I am convinced that there would be virtually no scenario where partisan individuals such as yourself would be satisfied with a big decision that Biden made. Reality remains we are exiting Afghanistan on his watch and that is the critical fact. I'm pleased with Biden on that one. In the years to come Biden might warrant criticism if he decides to sic the military on an easier or vulnerable target.
Fathertime!
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Biden said: *The-Buck-Stops-With-Me!*
Gee, that is going to make those slaughtered and raped in Afghanistan feel much better. Don't you know Biden is capable of lying? He didn't answer a question yet and he won't answer any hard questions pertaining to his actions that caused more suffering and deaths than necessary. Words or action, which means more?
We still have over 10K Americans in Afghanistan and Biden gave a speech today on how he's going to keep us safe by giving us the third jab. He then refused to take questions and quickly walked away. This is going to be a standard routine for him for the next few weeks.
When America abandoned Vietnam, my aunts and uncles were thrown in jail. One Senator voted against bringing Vietnamese refugee friends to America and that was Joe Biden.
What Biden did in Afghanistan is 100 times worse. Some of you guys don't understand what goes on in other places in the world or maybe some of you guys don't care because it isn't your family or your neck that is on the line. There is mass chaos and killings in Afghanistan right now. Women who worked for government or police are sure to be slaughtered or tortured in the worst ways. This female police officer caught by the Taliban last year was shot and had her eyes gouged out tells us what is in store for women now that the Taliban is in control. Some people will be fed to dogs.
http://dailycaller.com/2021/08/18/afghan-woman-eyes-gouged-taliban-animals-feed-womens-bodies/ (http://dailycaller.com/2021/08/18/afghan-woman-eyes-gouged-taliban-animals-feed-womens-bodies/)
I've seen media interviews with people who advised Biden how to pull out without making a mess and Biden didn't take any of their advice. Biden even ignored Gen Milley's advice although Milley is currently protecting his boss doing damage control. Biden is lucky people are deflecting damage off him while those in Afghanistan aren't as lucky.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9904819/Biden-IGNORED-Milleys-request-2-500-troops-Afghanistan.html (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9904819/Biden-IGNORED-Milleys-request-2-500-troops-Afghanistan.html)
Regardless if any of you think leaving with a peace plan will not work, we leave ONLY with a peace plan in hand. Then at least Biden can say he tried his best to pull out after the Taliban guarantees no violence. A peace plan, if it worked, would also leave 11 bases to the Afghan Army. Now the Taliban owns those bases plus 6 attack aircraft, 174 Humvees, 10,000 rockets, 61,000 40mm explosive rounds, and 30 million rounds of ammo. They acquire more everyday day. If we are going to abandon Afghanistan quickly, Biden should've told our military to take the dangerous stuff home with them so it doesn't get into enemy hands. Lucky we didn't have nukes over there. Now our war equipment can be turned on Afghan civilians. But hey! Biden says the buck stops with him so our families should sleep good tonight!
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GQ,
The US made a deal. Short extension aside, Biden held our part of the deal and did not renege on it.
To not do so would mean either prolonging another 20 years, or a very nasty withdrawal.
It's not either/or
It was not prolonging it 20 years OR a nasty withdrawal.
They should have been more organized, they should have evacuated the civilians first.
They shouldn't have closed the Bagram airfield until the withdrawal was nearly complete.
They eliminated a State department program to protect Americans overseas* shortly before
they announced the withdrawal.
There are upwards of 15,000 Americans stranded in Afghanistan **
It was gross incompetence
*Biden admin moved to dismantle protections for citizens trapped overseas months before Kabul’s fall: memo
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/biden-admin-dismantled-ccr-kabul
** http://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/15-000-americans-remain-afghanistan-after-taliban-takeover-n1277033
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Biden said: *The-Buck-Stops-With-Me!*
Enough said.
OK Dr Phil. It looks to me like the bucks went with Ashraf Ghani even though he denies it.
http://nypost.com/2021/08/18/runaway-afghan-president-ashraf-ghani-denies-rumors-he-fled-with-load-of-cash/ Joe Biden was a D- student and is now an even worse potus. The term the 'buck stops here' was plagiarized [as usual] from Harry Truman. If the buck stops with Biden..why bring some general in on it?
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It's not either/or
It was not prolonging it 20 years OR a nasty withdrawal.
They should have been more organized, they should have evacuated the civilians first.
They shouldn't have closed the Bagram airfield until the withdrawal was nearly complete.
They eliminated a State department program to protect Americans overseas shortly before
they announced the withdrawal.
It was gross incompetence
(http://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/Smileys/DarkB/icon_thumleft.gif)
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I am convinced that there would be virtually no scenario where partisan individuals such as yourself would be satisfied with a big decision that Biden made.
Fathertime!
I clearly stated that I agree with the big decision. How can you read my words and
think that I disagree with it?
I 100% agree that we need to be out of Afghanistan. We should have removed the
civilians first. We should have closed the Bagram air base AFTER the civilians were
removed.
I 100% agree that we need to be out of Afghanistan.
I 100% agree that we need to be out of Afghanistan.
I 100% agree that we need to be out of Afghanistan.
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Gee, that is going to make those slaughtered and raped in Afghanistan feel much better. Don't you know Biden is capable of lying? He didn't answer a question yet and he won't answer any hard questions pertaining to his actions that caused more suffering and deaths than necessary. Words or action, which means more?
We still have over 10K Americans in Afghanistan and Biden gave a speech today on how he's going to keep us safe by giving us the third jab. He then refused to take questions and quickly walked away. This is going to be a standard routine for him for the next few weeks.
When America abandoned Vietnam, my aunts and uncles were thrown in jail. One Senator voted against bringing Vietnamese refugee friends to America and that was Joe Biden.
What Biden did in Afghanistan is 100 times worse. Some of you guys don't understand what goes on in other places in the world or maybe some of you guys don't care because it isn't your family or your neck that is on the line. There is mass chaos and killings in Afghanistan right now. Women who worked for government or police are sure to be slaughtered or tortured in the worst ways. This female police officer caught by the Taliban last year was shot and had her eyes gouged out tells us what is in store for women now that the Taliban is in control. Some people will be fed to dogs.
http://dailycaller.com/2021/08/18/afghan-woman-eyes-gouged-taliban-animals-feed-womens-bodies/ (http://dailycaller.com/2021/08/18/afghan-woman-eyes-gouged-taliban-animals-feed-womens-bodies/)
I've seen media interviews with people who advised Biden how to pull out without making a mess and Biden didn't take any of their advice. Biden even ignored Gen Milley's advice although Milley is currently protecting his boss doing damage control. Biden is lucky people are deflecting damage off him while those in Afghanistan aren't as lucky.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9904819/Biden-IGNORED-Milleys-request-2-500-troops-Afghanistan.html (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9904819/Biden-IGNORED-Milleys-request-2-500-troops-Afghanistan.html)
Regardless if any of you think leaving with a peace plan will not work, we leave ONLY with a peace plan in hand. Then at least Biden can say he tried his best to pull out after the Taliban guarantees no violence. A peace plan, if it worked, would also leave 11 bases to the Afghan Army. Now the Taliban owns those bases plus 6 attack aircraft, 174 Humvees, 10,000 rockets, 61,000 40mm explosive rounds, and 30 million rounds of ammo. They acquire more everyday day. If we are going to abandon Afghanistan quickly, Biden should've told our military to take the dangerous stuff home with them so it doesn't get into enemy hands. Lucky we didn't have nukes over there. Now our war equipment can be turned on Afghan civilians. But hey! Biden says the buck stops with him so our families should sleep good tonight!
Rape in the US:
http://www.statista.com/statistics/191137/reported-forcible-rape-cases-in-the-usa-since-1990/
I bet you weren’t so worried about that, eh?
:ROFL:
Now that’s funny!
The 3 amigos who now subscribe to the same purveyor of fake news they scorned the past 5 years. Sensationalism sells, boys. You should know that by now.
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OK Dr Phil. It looks to me like the bucks went with Ashraf Ghani even though he denies it.
http://nypost.com/2021/08/18/runaway-afghan-president-ashraf-ghani-denies-rumors-he-fled-with-load-of-cash/ Joe Biden was a D- student and is now an even worse potus. The term the 'buck stops here' was plagiarized [as usual] from Harry Truman. If the buck stops with Biden..why bring some general in on it?
Yup. Trump was supposed to be an A student, no?
I supported him too when he pretty much did the same in Syria.
http://apnews.com/article/donald-trump-syria-ap-top-news-international-news-politics-ac3115b4eb564288a03a5b8be868d2e5
I don’t remember you huffing and puffing then. Why is that? LMAO!
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The full Biden address yesterday. I couldn't care less if this was scripted because he's out there in front of all of us speaking and owning up to things he decided upon. Bush wasn't this courageous, not Trump and certainly not Obama. How refreshing.
Stop the partisanship for a change...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RmioEI6tzCk
It is true I believe that the mistake was made back in the day. The US, etc went into Afghanistan to take out Osama & al-Qaeda. The Taliban stood in its way and wouldn't co-operate in this task. To my mind the US weren't already keen on the Taliban (religious Islamic fundamentalists, societal values) and linking them with al-Qaeda gave them an excuse to take them out at the same time. Theoretically the mission was always to take out Osama & al-Qaeda but it took to 2011 to find & kill Osama, this helped lead to mission creep.
The mission started creeping over to regime change/nation building. The US thought why not install a US/western friendly government while there more in line with its values. The big mistake seems to have been in these intervening years to spend vast amounts of money on setting up the Afghan military and reconstruction efforts. Those efforts have been shown now to be a waste of effort & money. Bush started with making the mistake & Obama carried it on.
The biggest mistake I think was going into Afghanistan in the first place. It was an ineffective solution to the problem, the terrorist network spread beyond Afghanistan possibly made worse as a result of going into Afghanistan. That was a potential problem highlighted by analysts as Bush moved closer to a military conflict in Afghanistan - that it could publicise, motivate & gain sympathy for the terrorist cause among Muslims. I think that has largely become true had the US etc not gone into Afghanistan then the US would be seen as the injured party from the World Trade Centre attacks and Muslim fundamentalists would not have had cause to be aggrieved at the US. There would always be some terrorist nutters but Afghanistan tended to radicalise many that probably wouldn't have been. Odds are with the greater attention paid to counter terrorism there wouldn't have been a second 9/11 or of a similar scale.
So to my mind the big mistake here really lies with Bush and his decision to go into Afghanistan.
I tend to agree with Biden that it looks like the Afghanistan government would have fallen after however long a period US & it's allies would be there. I'm still not convinced though that he couldn't do it without getting a peace deal first. A peace deal might have helped the Afghan government hold on longer or come to a better arrangement with the Taliban. I think he along with others in the US administration thought the Afghan government would hold out a lot better. In that it looks like the Afghan government believed this also as they seemed surprised at the speed of the Taliban advance and how quickly it's own forces turned, fled or fell. That in all fairness doesn't look like it could have been predicted. Only those with a finger on the pulse of how Afghans feel and behave possibly could have and neither the US nor the Afghan government seems to have been in touch.
So we're left with an embarrassing cock up and one which to learn from. Basically what is done is now done, the population has gone with the Taliban or they would have risen en-mass to oppose them, they did not. Had they been willing I'm sure the Afghan government and/or US would have had no issue with arming them. I personally feel that Trump may have handled the situation better he tended to have a good track record on resolving foreign affair problems during his administration without having to ultimately use force, i.e North Korea, etc. I personally think he would have held out for a peace deal and gotten the cease fire extended or been ready to use force - but that would unlikely been necessary. I think this is more a cock up resulting from a fail at the negotiation table and Biden's team not playing hard ball enough at negotiation. That seems to be an area Trump as a businessman is naturally strong on as what was probably needed here.
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OK Dr Phil. It looks to me like the bucks went with Ashraf Ghani even though he denies it.
http://nypost.com/2021/08/18/runaway-afghan-president-ashraf-ghani-denies-rumors-he-fled-with-load-of-cash/ (http://nypost.com/2021/08/18/runaway-afghan-president-ashraf-ghani-denies-rumors-he-fled-with-load-of-cash/) Joe Biden was a D- student and is now an even worse potus. The term the 'buck stops here' was plagiarized [as usual] from Harry Truman. If the buck stops with Biden..why bring some general in on it?
Biden can make a thousand more mistakes of this magnitude and tell us a thousand times the buck stops with him but it won't impress me once.
Trump did not like Afghan President Ghani. Trump's peace deal with the Taliban is they will share power with Ghani which upset Ghani. Trump was hoping Ghani would resign over it. This deal will get the Taliban to stop fighting Afghan and our forces. The Taliban and the Afghan government sharing power would allow America to maintain a presence of 800 troops strictly to eliminate terrorist cells around the country.
There were a hundred thousand Americans, Europeans, Asians, etc.. working in Afghanistan and overnight, their lives were uprooted. They had to leave everything behind and run to the airport. Now terrorist groups can grow freely which may come back to haunt us..
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I clearly stated that I agree with the big decision. How can you read my words and
think that I disagree with it?
I 100% agree that we need to be out of Afghanistan. We should have removed the
civilians first. We should have closed the Bagram air base AFTER the civilians were
removed.
I 100% agree that we need to be out of Afghanistan.
I 100% agree that we need to be out of Afghanistan.
I 100% agree that we need to be out of Afghanistan.
Shoulda this, shoulda that, monday morning quarterbacking. Biden had the guts to do what no other president in the past 20 years did. He exited the US from Afghanistan. Nothing nowadays goes according to plan.
Fathertime!
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Biden can make a thousand more mistakes of this magnitude and tell us a thousand times the buck stops with him but it won't impress me once.
Doesn't seem like he is out to impress anyone, even you, but instead simply telling it like it is. I like that a lot better than one who is only out to impress folks about himself.
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Doesn't seem like he is out to impress anyone, even you, but instead simply telling it like it is. I like that a lot better than one who is only out to impress folks about himself.
Maybe if you had your life uprooted today over a bad decision and had to leave everything behind while scrambling to take your family to an airport you'd change your mind. You're engulfed with fear so bad that hanging on to the exterior of a plane is not as bad as facing the Taliban. If that is the kind of chaotic life bad management had brought you, you'd still respect them if they're not out to impress you. There's a lot of Afghanis that would love to trade places with you. They would love to be in a place of freedom and have security for their families. Even if you don't care about the Afghanis, can you at least criticize Biden for creating the chaos that allowed for no masks or social distancing which created a super spreader event?
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Biden can make a thousand more mistakes of this magnitude and tell us a thousand times the buck stops with him but it won't impress me once.
Doesn't seem like he is out to impress anyone, even you, but instead simply telling it like it is. I like that a lot better than one who is only out to impress folks about himself.
Maybe if you had your life uprooted today over a bad decision and had to leave everything behind while scrambling to take your family to an airport you'd change your mind. You're engulfed with fear so bad that hanging on to the exterior of a plane is not as bad as facing the Taliban. If that is the kind of chaotic life bad management had brought you, you'd still respect them if they're not out to impress you. There's a lot of Afghanis that would love to trade places with you. They would love to be in a place of freedom and have security for their families. Even if you don't care about the Afghanis, can you at least criticize Biden for creating the chaos that allowed for no masks or social distancing which created a super spreader event?
At least when replying try to keep it somewhat related and in context, along with not trying to put words in my mouth.
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Yup. Trump was supposed to be an A student, no? I supported him too when he pretty much did the same in Syria.
I don’t remember you huffing and puffing then. Why is that? LMAO!
Again...I am a phantom evil Trump supporter? If you did not observe any post [of mine] supporting the Kurdish cause--- it is not because I didn't support them. Perhaps I was on hiatus at the time :rolleyes: I did find your comment... Turkey is a NATO ally. Period. We didn't belong in Syria to begin with....It's time for the USA to get out of these worldwide policing habit and let the United Nation handle all these global messes.....If the Turks want to attack the Kurds, then let the UN force see to it that it doesn't happen. Period. I'm fully with TRUMP.
Fact is...the UN does nothing but take our US money also. A review of the deal in Turkey----
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019_Turkish_offensive_into_north-eastern_Syria
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So to my mind the big mistake here really lies with Bush and his decision to go into Afghanistan.
Pretty good write-up, TC, although that remark isn’t accurate. The invasion of Afghanistan was supported by nearly 100% of Americans as 911 was the single biggest attack against the US on American soil. While no diplomacy was exercised prior to the invasion since the US, and most of the world, didn’t recognized Talibans’ rule as legitimate, the US still exercised warnings and request for the Taliban to hand-over OBL, and oust Al-Qeada from their land. Mullah Omar and the Talibans refused.
The mistake Bush made was, now known as the ‘original sin’, after the fall of Kabul (Talibans main stronghold) and considered ‘defeated’ in December 2001, a meeting was held for what is known as the Bonn Agreement (http://peacemaker.un.org/afghanistan-bonnagreement2001), it was regarding the course to be taken in post-Taliban Afghanistan. The US administration rejected both having the Talibans attend that meeting, and denied safe passage for Mullah Omar in Kandahar and grant him amnesty so he can then continue ‘live in dignity’. Omar was largely regarded as a national hero for his fight against the Soviet as a Muhajideen.
As a result, 2002-2005/6 saw insurgency violence increased in multiple fold. Coalition forces stayed for the fight, and nation building kicked in.
2007 onward, in the midst of fighting and nation-building, various peace negotiations were being discussed constantly.
Second biggest mistake, in 2010 a brokered peace deal, ushered by then-president Karzai, between the Afghan Government, Talibans and the US (under Clinton’s blessing) was about to begin when the Obama administration (likely seeing the success achieved in Bush’s surge in Iraq) approved a military surge in Afghanistan while the talks were ongoing. This was opposed by then-VP Biden. Peace talks was abandoned, violence continued.
Ghani was elected president, and while he is credited with the peace deal made in 2016 against the second biggest militant group, Hizb-i-Islami Gulbudin, opposed to the occupation, he had also wasted an opportunity to rid of the warlords in the Hazara sector. The younger generation had protested against the violence and wanted to change their leadership which were financially supported by Iran. Ghani refused the demand of the movement which could’ve rid of the warlords, and brought support for the Afghan government. There were a few leaked cables that proved this.
Here are at least 2.
http://wikileaks.org/plusd/cables/10KABUL439_a.html (http://wikileaks.org/plusd/cables/10KABUL439_a.html)
http://wikileaks.org/plusd/cables/08KABUL3097_a.html (http://wikileaks.org/plusd/cables/08KABUL3097_a.html)
This is one of the reasons that soured the US’s relationship and confidence with Ghani. Maybe even as far as disrespecting his decision-making style. Bringing forth the attitude of the eventual Doha peace deal between the US and the Taliban that was signed Feb. 29, 2020.
The peace deal was for the most part a transition of power in Afghanistan and the withdrawal of the US and coalition troops. In exchange, the Talibans ceases all violence against US personnel, the coalition and all its citizens. The Afghan government was not a party to this deal, but it was also conditioned that the deal includes continued negotiation in good faith between the Taliban and the Afghan government.
In less than a month, March 2020, talks between Ghani’s administration and The Taliban began. Exchange of prisoners negotiation created more than a huge hurdle that resulted in violence.
Lisa Curtis, Trump admin’s National Security Council’s Sr. Director for S/C Asia, once declared, the Doha Peace Deal was in fact weak and unfair to the Afghan government. She felt the US should’ve demanded more concessions from the Taliban. She remarked that the US should not have entered the Doha talks unless the US were prepared to represent the Afghan government’s interest. As it was, no one was looking out for the Afghan government’s interest.
The US, under Trump, simply wanted the deal so we can get out of there. The ensuing peace deal talks between Ghani and Taliban failed, and it took another 14 months of delay and violence. With the withdrawal date coming, the US pressured Ghani to strike deals with the Talibans he didn’t agree with. Likely causing the huge drop on morale and trust of the Afghan government by and large. Resulting in the immediate Taliban takeover we all witnessed.
Chris Miller, interim secretary said the Biden admin. have a clause on that deal, and that if he wanted to he can withdraw from the deal if no peace deal was struck between Ghani and the Taliban. That’s just simply bullshit.
Just yesterday, he alleges that the Trump administration didn't really have plans to completely pull the troops out of Afghanistan. Instead, he said, they always planned on keeping troops there as a counter terrorism force. The plan to fully withdraw was supposed to just be a 'ruse' to force Ghani to make the bitter deal with the Taliban. What a moron!!!
...the president’s public promise to finish withdrawing U.S. forces by May 1, as negotiated (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-51689443) with the Taliban, was actually a “play” that masked the Trump administration’s true intentions: to convince Afghan President Ashraf Ghani to quit or accept a bitter power-sharing agreement with the Taliban, and to keep some U.S. troops in Afghanistan for counterrorism missions.
http://www.defenseone.com/policy/2021/08/trumps-pledge-exit-afghanistan-was-ruse-his-final-secdef-says/184660/ (http://www.defenseone.com/policy/2021/08/trumps-pledge-exit-afghanistan-was-ruse-his-final-secdef-says/184660/)
If Biden reneged from the deal, it’ll guarantee war will again breakout, and the US and allies will need to refill the country with troops and thereby prolonging the occupation. Biden played the only hand dealt for him by his predecessor. Like Trump, he wanted out of Afghanistan.
The Talibans rapid takeover of the country not only surprised the US, but also the UK, Germany and Russia.
The militants involved in the takeover include factions of Al Qeada of the Sub-Indian continent.
Chew on that puppy. Circled back to zero.
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Shoulda this, shoulda that, monday morning quarterbacking. Biden had the guts to do what no other president in the past 20 years did. He exited the US from Afghanistan. Nothing nowadays goes according to plan.
Fathertime!
I got you, he meant well and you don't care if he totally f#cked up.
There are 15,000 Americans trapped because of him. There have
been 2,311 deaths of Americans in Afghanistan in twenty years
but you don't care about the 15,000 Americans.
There are 15,000 Americans trapped. That isn't Monday
morning quarterbacking, that is a f#ck up of catastrophic
proportions. This is impeachment, removal from office, this is
bigger than the Japanese invasion of Pearl Harbor
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There are 15,000 Americans trapped because of him.
Today's WH press briefing asked the press secretary how many American's need saving and press secretary couldn't answer the question. They really don't know how many Americans they need to help but we know it's an embarrassing number. I've heard estimates in the range from 10K-40K Americans need rescuing. They did admit to currently evacuating thousands of Afghans for every 100 Americans. Citizens and our military equipment should have been pulled out calmly before pulling the troops.
I think the Taliban is going to play nice with American citizens. They surround the airport but so far they're letting our citizens pass through unharmed. They could easy kill tens of thousands of Americans and European citizens trapped throughout the country. This disaster could turn out much worse for Biden if the Taliban wants. The Taliban, not Biden, is in control of how bad this can end and how much more harm can be done to America's reputation.
Taliban has now seized 40 of our aircraft and 2000 vehicles. Some choppers are stealth so they will sell that technology to China and Russia. People have spliced together what Biden said 10 days ago. Reporters told him the intelligence community warns the Afghan government will fall and the embassy will be overrun. Biden replied the Afghan army won't fall because they have one of the strongest armies in the world and you won't see choppers evacuating people from the embassy like what happened in Vietnam.
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http://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/15-000-americans-remain-afghanistan-after-taliban-takeover-n1277033
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I got you, he meant well and you don't care if he totally f#cked up.
There are 15,000 Americans trapped because of him. There have
been 2,311 deaths of Americans in Afghanistan in twenty years
but you don't care about the 15,000 Americans.
If this series of events would have happened under trump, your comments would have been completely different. The people left behind would have been bleeding hearts liberals. You would have blamed the 'leftist intelligence community', all out to get trump. You would have exclaimed the media is overreporting and sensationalizing the whole thing. I think biden explained pretty well what is going on. Overall, it isn't ideal, but not the disaster you are attempting to make it out to be. Mostly political theater, somewhat entertaining reading the partisan silliness.
Fathertime!
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I think the Taliban is going to play nice with American citizens.
Why? Because they have been sweet and kind in the past?
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For those that wondered why this administration, specifically Pres. Joe Biden, is catching all the heat for this withdrawal from Afghanistan, LMAO...follow the money and wonder no more...
...The United States insisted on the country’s security architecture but has retrenched from its willingness to pay for it. Since 2014, Washington has provided about 75 percent (http://fas.org/sgp/crs/row/R45122.pdf) of the $5 billion to $6 billion per year needed to fund the Afghan National Security Forces while the remainder of the tab was picked up U.S. partner nations and the Afghan government. However, for fiscal year 2021, the U.S. Congress appropriated around $3 billion for Afghanistan’s fighting forces, the lowest amount since fiscal year 2008. This diminution of U.S. support came after Afghan President Ashraf Ghani said his government cannot support its army (http://www.dawn.com/news/1383601) for even six months without U.S. financial aid.
Although much of the U.S. expenditures pertained to defense, the United States has ostensibly invested in other sectors of Afghan governance. As of June 30, the United States has spent about $144.98 billion in funds (http://www.sigar.mil/pdf/quarterlyreports/2021-07-30qr.pdf) for reconstruction and related activities in Afghanistan since fiscal year 2002, including $88.61 billion for security (including $4.6 billion for counternarcotic initiatives); $36.29 billion for governance and development (including $4.37 billion for counternarcotic initiatives); $4.18 billion for humanitarian aid; and $15.91 billion for agency operations.
Although these numbers are staggering, much of U.S. investment did not stay in Afghanistan. Because of heavy reliance on a complex ecosystem of defense contractors, Washington banditry, and aid contractors, between 80 and 90 percent of outlays actually returned to the U.S. economy. Of the 10 to 20 percent of the contracts that remained in the country, the United States rarely cared about the efficacy of the initiative. Although corruption is rife in Afghanistan (http://www.sigar.mil/pdf/alerts/SIGAR-21-09-AL.pdf), the Special Inspector General for Afghanistan Reconstruction repeatedly identifies bewildering corruption by U.S. firms and individuals (http://www.sigar.mil/pdf/quarterlyreports/2021-07-30qr.pdf) working in Afghanistan.
In many cases, U.S. firms even defrauded Afghans (http://www.nbcnews.com/id/wbna38142317). In 2010, one military official with the International Security Assistance Force explained (http://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/08/world/asia/08contract.html?partner=rss&emc=rss) to New York Times journalist Carlotta Gall that “without being too dramatic, American contractors are contributing to fueling the insurgency.”
As it neglected to tackle Pakistan and tried to do security on the cheap, Washington also strong-armed the Afghan government it into so-called “peace talks” with the Taliban. More than anyone, the Afghan government understood the Taliban and their Pakistani handlers could not be trusted to honor their commitments, such as they were.
The spectacle of the peace talks was important in Washington, which hoped to create a fiction of power transition to cover the process of a negotiated U.S. defeat. There was genuinely nothing to discuss: The Afghan government was committed to constitutional rule of law—including elections, howsoever problematic—while the Afghan Taliban were committed to overturning the constitution and opposed elections as non-Islamic. The Taliban used the spectacle of the peace process as a recuperative retreat to revivify and emplace their forces while stashing weapons as they awaited U.S. withdrawal.
As the sham of peace talks faltered in March 2020, the Trump administration threated to withhold $2 billion in assistance (http://www.latimes.com/politics/story/2020-03-24/us-afghanistan-taliban-peace-talks) if the Afghan government didn’t return to the negotiation table. Equally appalling, the United States forced the Ghani government to release more than 5,000 hardened Taliban prisoners (http://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/09/world/asia/afghanistan-taliban-prisoners-peace-talks.html) in return for hundreds of government officials taken captive by the Taliban. Many of these released prisoners are now leading the current offense (http://www.wsj.com/articles/taliban-commander-who-led-attack-on-afghan-city-was-released-from-prison-last-year-officials-say-11628010527). The United States also pressured Ghani to postpone or even cancel the 2019 presidential elections (http://www.wsj.com/articles/u-s-considers-asking-afghanistan-to-suspend-presidential-election-1542054459) in a bid to mollify the Taliban’s demands that the government be dissolved as a condition of peace and be replaced with an interim government in which the Taliban had a stake, which Ghani rightly refused.
The United States walked out of Afghanistan in 1990 and made Pakistan the custodian of Afghanistan’s future. Today, it is repeating the same mistake. When the Taliban once again transform Afghanistan into a base of operations for modern Islamist terrorist organizations, Washington will only have itself to blame....
http://foreignpolicy.com/2021/08/16/pakistan-united-states-afghanistan-taliban/ (http://foreignpolicy.com/2021/08/16/pakistan-united-states-afghanistan-taliban/)
This article clearly echoed the book by Anand Gopal: No Good Men Among the Living: America, the Taliban, and the War Through Afghan Eyes
There is a machinery that is behind what we do, and it keeps us participating in the conflict because it generates wealth. More precisely, it transfers wealth from the taxpayer to others, destroying wealth in the aggregate.
All the more reason I applaud and support President Joe Biden for having the political courage to finally put an end to this madness.
And for those corrupt civilian contractors that immorally milked this war, and indirectly stole from the very delusioned citizens who are now concerned for their welfare (LMAO), best make sure you guys get your fat butts out of there alive. If not, well, that's the cost of doing business with the devil.
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Today's WH press briefing asked the press secretary how many American's need saving and press secretary couldn't answer the question. They really don't know how many Americans they need to help but we know it's an embarrassing number. I've heard estimates in the range from 10K-40K Americans need rescuing.They did admit to currently evacuating thousands of Afghans for every 100 Americans. Citizens and our military equipment should have been pulled out calmly before pulling the troops.
I think the Taliban is going to play nice with American citizens. They surround the airport but so far they're letting our citizens pass through unharmed. They could easy kill tens of thousands of Americans and European citizens trapped throughout the country. This disaster could turn out much worse for Biden if the Taliban wants. The Taliban, not Biden, is in control of how bad this can end and how much more harm can be done to America's reputation.
Taliban has now seized 40 of our aircraft and 2000 vehicles. Some choppers are stealth so they will sell that technology to China and Russia. People have spliced together what Biden said 10 days ago. Reporters told him the intelligence community warns the Afghan government will fall and the embassy will be overrun. Biden replied the Afghan army won't fall because they have one of the strongest armies in the world and you won't see choppers evacuating people from the embassy like what happened in Vietnam.
LMAO!
http://twitter.com/Public_Citizen/status/1427622847443243009 (http://twitter.com/Public_Citizen/status/1427622847443243009)
I do not think the *complex* is hardly even and remotely as concerned as you.
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LMAO!
http://twitter.com/Public_Citizen/status/1427622847443243009 (http://twitter.com/Public_Citizen/status/1427622847443243009)
I do not think the *complex* is hardly even and remotely as concerned as you.
With stealth choppers, radar, drones and other technology getting into Russia and China's hands helping them become our equals, the 'complex' will get new contracts to create equipment that will keep us ahead of our advisaries.
With war winding down, the new scam is with experimental vaccines they plan on giving us multiple times each year, every year forever that can't stop COVID. Trump yesterday called the third vaccine in less than a year a money maker for big pharma. I bet with colder months coming, we'll be getting a double shot of vaccines and triple masks for Christmas!
While refugees are getting free flights to America, American citizens must pay $2000+ for their flight home. What a nice surprise after getting their lives instantly turned upside down.
Biden Admin Tells Americans Stranded In Afghanistan To Pay For Their Own Flights Home (thefederalist.com) (http://thefederalist.com/2021/08/19/biden-admin-tells-americans-stranded-in-afghanistan-to-pay-for-their-own-flights-home/)
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While refugees are getting free flights to America, American citizens must pay $2000+ for their flight home. What a nice surprise after getting their lives instantly turned upside down.
Biden Admin Tells Americans Stranded In Afghanistan To Pay For Their Own Flights Home (thefederalist.com) (http://thefederalist.com/2021/08/19/biden-admin-tells-americans-stranded-in-afghanistan-to-pay-for-their-own-flights-home/)
But I thought bleeding hearted partisan hacks were in pieces watching the plight of these refugees? Are you referring to those who hung on the landing gears? It’s free after all according to you, no? Why should they be charged anything. It’s pretty dangerous being out of a flying plane, don’t you think?
As for the $2,000.00 fare you claim Biden wants to charge them ‘Americans’, that’s nice of him to get them off awfully cheap. Methinks their respective companies who bilked US taxpayers untold billions ought to rescue those idiots themselves, or better yet let them fend for themselves. I’m sure they’re all fat enough to afford bribing their own ways back home.
“Whose lives were turned upside down”. Now that was funny! You should think about a career as a comedian, BillyB.
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With stealth choppers, radar, drones and other technology getting into Russia and China's hands helping them become our equals,
Our equals? For all we know they are probably already past that. Depends on who you believe more.
In addition, I don't believe for a moment the US left behind cutting edge technology, unless we intentionally chose to, and I doubt that was the case. Biden got us out of Afghanistan, despite the desperate partisan efforts to spin it otherwise, that is going to be a plus next election cycle, and rightfully so.
Fathertime!
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Methinks their respective companies who bilked US taxpayers untold billions ought to rescue those idiots themselves, or better yet let them fend for themselves. I’m sure they’re all fat enough to afford bribing their own ways back home.
You have a jaded view of everything except for Biden right now. An English teacher or nurse working in a remote village isn't getting rich. If they worked in Afghanistan and had to keep their income in an Afghan bank, it's all lost now. My MIL worked in Libya during their civil war. As a foreigner, she had to deposit her earnings in a Libyan bank instead of a bank in Ukraine. She lost it all after fleeing the war. The Ukrainian government sent a military plane into Tripoli and picked her and my wife up for free. You like comedians? The world has got to be laughing at us for charging our own citizens to get out due to a condition Biden caused.
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I don't believe for a moment the US left behind cutting edge technology, unless we intentionally chose to, and I doubt that was the case.
You seem to have doubts when others don't and don't when others do. I think I will go with professional news reports.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------Billions in US weaponry seized by Taliban
By Rebecca Kheel (http://thehill.com/author/rebecca-kheel) - 08/19/21 06:00 AM EDT
Billions of dollars of U.S. weapons are now in the hands of the Taliban following the quick collapse of Afghan security forces that were trained to use the military equipment.
Among the items seized by the Taliban are Black Hawk helicopters and A-29 Super Tucano attack aircraft.
Photos have also circulated of Taliban fighters clutching U.S.-made M4 carbines and M16 rifles instead of their iconic AK-47s. And the militants have been spotted with U.S. Humvees and mine-resistant ambush protected vehicles.
While it’s virtually impossible to operate advanced aircraft without training, seizing the hardware gives the militants a propaganda boost and underscores the amount of wasted funds on U.S. military efforts in Afghanistan over the last 20 years.
“When an armed group gets their hands on American-made weaponry, it's sort of a status symbol. It's a psychological win,” said Elias Yousif, deputy director of the Center for International Policy’s Security Assistance Monitor.
http://thehill.com/policy/defense/568493-billions-in-us-weaponry-seized-by-taliban
August 19, 202111:59 AM CDTLast Updated 11 hours agoAerospace & Defense (http://www.reuters.com/business/aerospace-defense)Planes, guns, night-vision goggles: The Taliban's new U.S.-made war chest
(http://www.reuters.com/resizer/fJxfbWWB-DTKmWvJFaD_KqWTt2s=/960x0/filters:quality(80)/cloudfront-us-east-2.images.arcpublishing.com/reuters/B374KBCWVFJ6ROKNHZRDUE7MLU.jpg)
Military vehicles transferred by the U.S. to the Afghan National Army in February 2021. Afghanistan Ministry of Defense/via REUTERS
http://www.reuters.com/business/aerospace-defense/planes-guns-night-vision-goggles-talibans-new-us-made-war-chest-2021-08-19/
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You have a jaded view of everything except for Biden right now. An English teacher or nurse working in a remote village isn't getting rich. If they worked in Afghanistan and had to keep their income in an Afghan bank, it's all lost now. My MIL worked in Libya during their civil war. As a foreigner, she had to deposit her earnings in a Libyan bank instead of a bank in Ukraine. She lost it all after fleeing the war. The Ukrainian government sent a military plane into Tripoli and picked her and my wife up for free. You like comedians? The world has got to be laughing at us for charging our own citizens to get out due to a condition Biden caused.
Damn right I’m jaded over the longest war that had no reason to be other than corrupt institution sucking up US taxpayers money to the tune of $300 million f@cking dollars PER DAY for the past 20 damned years!!!
Wake up Billy! You keep sampling these tear jerking anecdotal without remotely giving pause and consider all the casualties both sides suffered all those years. Your silly partisan hacking got you so lost in your own delusional view of this stupid, stupid conflict, and your continued daily consumption of fake news these network had been feeding you is truly unfortunate.
The only thing Biden caused was finally end the saga of likely one of the biggest extortion orchestrated by our own military complex that thousands had paid dearly in blood. You haven’t the slightest idea of that which you think you know.
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Biden got us out of Afghanistan, despite the desperate partisan efforts to spin it otherwise, that is going to be a plus next election cycle, and rightfully so.
"Biden got us out of Afghanistan"....If he performed brain surgery with pliers and a hammer...one could say 'at least he did the surgery'. It is not [for the umpteenth time in this thread] what was done but how it was done. It was not a plus and I am afraid of all the minuses yet to come.
...the longest war that had no reason to be other than corrupt institution sucking up US taxpayers money to the tune of $300 million
I believe the figure to be much more---
http://www.hindustantimes.com/world-news/afghan-war-cost-us-2-trillion-interest-will-pinch-every-american-101629179737345.html
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http://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/15-000-americans-remain-afghanistan-after-taliban-takeover-n1277033 (http://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/15-000-americans-remain-afghanistan-after-taliban-takeover-n1277033)
Why so many? Who were these people and what were they doing there??
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Damn right I’m jaded over the longest war that had no reason to be other than corrupt institution sucking up US taxpayers money to the tune of $300 million f@cking dollars PER DAY for the past 20 damned years!!!
Wake up Billy! You keep sampling these tear jerking anecdotal without remotely giving pause and consider all the casualties both sides suffered all those years. Your silly partisan hacking got you so lost in your own delusional view of this stupid, stupid conflict, and your continued daily consumption of fake news these network had been feeding you is truly unfortunate.
The only thing Biden caused was finally end the saga of likely one of the biggest extortion orchestrated by our own military complex that thousands had paid dearly in blood. You haven’t the slightest idea of that which you think you know.
Wake up GQ. Even Trump isn't as dumb to do what just happened and what you approved of. Although your family wasn't affected, other people's lives are at stake and a responsible world leader needs to consider that. Trump had a peace deal in plan. No soldier was killed in the last year and a half. The plan was working. With the exception of going after a few terror cells, the fighting stopped. Trump had us down to 2500 troops which maintained the peace. The war was over and winding down. The Taliban was showing they could stop fighting and cooperate. They were having meetings with our officials. When Biden showed up, they were having meetings with China. China would be happy to do the mining of the world's largest lithium reserves. As we are going to be forced into driving electric cars, China would love to be able to make money off us or cripple us in a future conflict being in control of the batteries. Also terror cells would be allowed to grow in Afghanistan. They've tried truck bombs and airplanes on the World trade center. They may graduate to dirty nuke bombs.
Canadian PM went on tv and announced he called Hillary to talk about issues over there. Nobody wants to talk to a guy who put their citizens in danger or maybe they want to talk to Biden's boss.
The UK parliament voted to hold Biden in contempt.
UK commander trying to evacuate his citizens gets into shouting match with US commander.
America has not shown itself to be the big man who can lead after putting other nations citizens in danger besides our own. Pure stupidity to the point we have to give thanks to the Taliban for not mowing our citizens down as then attempt to get to the airport. Other nations will take matters into their own hands and maybe go do business with Russia or China. Our weakness will increase chance of war elsewhere. China been hostile with Taiwan to check our response. Doesn't matter if things escalate everywhere. Biden will tell us the buck stops with him and we'll be okay with that.
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Why so many? Who were these people and what were they doing there??
Just for Afghanistan...here's a partial list:
http://www.glassdoor.com/Explore/top-companies-afghanistan_IL.14,25_IN7.htm (http://www.glassdoor.com/Explore/top-companies-afghanistan_IL.14,25_IN7.htm)
There had been so many articles over the years the MSN just never publicize to keep the bleeding hearted partisan hacks silent:
http://www.marketplace.org/2021/08/16/military-contractors-and-the-profits-of-war/ (http://www.marketplace.org/2021/08/16/military-contractors-and-the-profits-of-war/)
http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2016/03/07/the-man-who-made-millions-off-the-afghan-war (http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2016/03/07/the-man-who-made-millions-off-the-afghan-war)
So many of samples are all over except from media the likes of BillyB relies on for gospel. America's overall consciousness are directly driven by the mainstream media and crony politicians. Unfortunate the majority of our population are so insular that it really doesn't take much to subject them to some silly reality the power behind the media wants them to see and believe.
With a slight diligence, you can find so many of these cases outside the reporting purview by the MSM. But can you imagine had cases like gets televised at prime time everyday? BillyB would be in a frenzy crying foul!!
http://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/united-states-files-suit-against-dyncorp-international-alleging-submission-false-claims-under (http://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/united-states-files-suit-against-dyncorp-international-alleging-submission-false-claims-under)
http://www.law360.com/articles/1389951/dyncorp-wants-35m-fca-overcharging-case-tossed (http://www.law360.com/articles/1389951/dyncorp-wants-35m-fca-overcharging-case-tossed)
You folks wonder why and how our public servants, who call themselves politicians, become so damn rich when they finally leave their offices that they can afford multi-million dollar seaside homes in Martha's Vineyard, for example.
LMAO, it isn't an accident nor a coincidence that the Obamas and the Bushs have all of the sudden became BFF!
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Wake up GQ. Even Trump isn't as dumb to do what just happened and what you approved of.
:ROFL:
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If this series of events would have happened under trump, your comments would
have been completely different.
Fathertime!
You are making a ridiculous claim. Never before in American history has an American
president accidentally or purposely abandoned 15,000 US citizens to such a perilous
situation.
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The biggest mistake I think was going into Afghanistan in the first place.
If you do a 9-11 event against the USA, the USA will come knocking on your door no
matter where you are. Mars is not too far away. The Day Bin Laden was killed, I would
have supported moving out.
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You are making a ridiculous claim. Never before in American history has an American
president accidentally or purposely abandoned 15,000 US citizens to such a perilous
situation.
sure ,sure your use of abandoned is a grand and partisan attempt to paint this situation inaccurately. Overall the withdrawal isn't going nearly as badly as you would probably like to be. Those that are on the right wing and hopelessly partisan will just have to live with the fact that Biden is the one who is following through.
I was on the road and caught Biden's remarks today. He sounded extremely coherent overall. Not the stumbling old man you have been attempting to make him out to be. His administration may will wind up with events in the negative coloumn but this particular event will be seen as a win overall.
Fathertime!
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sure ,sure your use of abandoned is a grand and partisan attempt to paint this situation inaccurately.
Are US Civilians trapped? YES
Can they leave? NO
Do they risk death? YES
Are people being killed? YES
Are both Houses of Congress ran by Democrats? YES
Are both Houses of Congress going to run investigations into Biden
about Afghanistan? YES
Stop being dishonest. Biden is getting killed by his own party for this
I have posted the stories and links.
-
Quotes from Democrats, more stories and links
“I agree that this administration should have been working a lot earlier to evacuate a
lot of the people who are desperate to flee now,” said
Democrat U.S. Rep. Joaquin Castro of San Antonio, who sits on the U.S.
House Foreign Affairs Committee. “That’s a point that I think almost everybody
agrees with, that these preparations, these evacuations should have started
more urgently and earlier.”
Democrat U.S. Rep. Marc Veasey, who sits on the U.S. House Armed Services
Committee, called the situation “tragic.”
“I support the decision to bring our troops home after 20 long years, but I also believe
we must answer the tough questions about why we were not better prepared to respond
to the unfolding crisis,” the Fort Worth Democrat said in a statement.
Democrat U.S. Rep. Vicente Gonzalez of McAllen, who sits on the U.S. House Foreign
Affairs Committee. Not long after a Sunday conference call briefing with House members
and senior State Department and Pentagon officials, Gonzalez tweeted, "There’s no way
to hide it. The situation in Afghanistan is another shame on this admin.”
Source Texas Tribune
FROM NPR, they have different democrats criticizing Biden, then those mentioned above.
There's A Bipartisan Backlash To How Biden Handled The Withdrawal From Afghanistan
http://www.npr.org/2021/08/16/1028081817/congressional-reaction-to-bidens-afghanistan-withdrawal-has-been-scathing
Biden Finally Unifies Congress—Against His Afghanistan Withdrawal Debacle
In a rare display of bipartisanship, angry lawmakers of both parties are pushing
the president to do more to aid Afghan refugees.
Critics, both Democratic and Republican, have largely focused their attention on
the execution of the withdrawal, not its merits. The scene at the Kabul airport is
dire, with desperate Afghans clinging to planes as they take off—a situation that
has resulted in devastating loss of life.
Translators and other personnel who aided the American military are now in mortal
danger, and the claims by Biden himself that some special immigrant visa applicants
wished to stay in Afghanistan have been vigorously challenged by advocates for
refugees.
Many lawmakers have set up phone or email lines specifically to handle requests
for constituents seeking to get help for someone in Afghanistan.
http://newrepublic.com/article/163310/democrats-midterm-elections-afghanistan-withdrawal
(CNN)Congressional Democrats are preparing a series of hearings on the US withdrawal
from Afghanistan amid rising anger about the Biden administration's handling of the end
of the war, with the Taliban rapidly taking control and the US chaotically scrambling to
evacuate Americans and vulnerable Afghan allies.
House Speaker Nancy Pelosi said there would be a hearing in the Foreign Affairs
Committee early next week,
http://www.cnn.com/2021/08/18/politics/democratic-response-afghanistan-withdrawal/index.html
-
CNN: Democrats grapple with Afghanistan fallout after Biden administration
ignored their previous warnings
Democrats are now in the midst of a political firestorm and struggling to find
a way to both back President Joe Biden on an exit from Afghanistan many
thought was long overdue, while acknowledging the administration made
major tactical mistakes that could have been avoided.
http://www.cnn.com/2021/08/16/politics/democratic-reaction-biden-afghanistan/index.html
-
CNN: Democrats grapple with Afghanistan fallout after Biden administration
ignored their previous warnings
Democrats are now in the midst
I've stated that I'm not a democrat, yet you dishonestly like to say that I am. One thing is for certain, I'm not supportive of many republican policies.
Quotes from Democrats, more stories and links
“I agree that this administration should have been working a lot earlier to evacuate a
lot of the people who are desperate to flee now,” said
Democrat U.S. Rep. Joaquin Castro of San Antonio, who sits on the U.S.
House Foreign Affairs Committee. “That’s a point that I think almost everybody
agrees with, that these preparations, these evacuations should have started
more urgently and earlier.”
Democrat U.S. Rep. Marc Veasey, who sits on the U.S. House Armed Services
Committee, called the situation “tragic.”
“I support the decision to bring our troops home after 20 long years, but I also believe
we must answer the tough questions about why we were not better prepared to respond
to the unfolding crisis,” the Fort Worth Democrat said in a statement.
Democrat U.S. Rep. Vicente Gonzalez of McAllen, who sits on the U.S. House Foreign
Affairs Committee. Not long after a Sunday conference call briefing with House members
and senior State Department and Pentagon officials, Gonzalez tweeted, "There’s no way
to hide it. The situation in Afghanistan is another shame on this admin.”
Source Texas Tribune
FROM NPR, they have different democrats criticizing Biden, then those mentioned above.
There's A Bipartisan Backlash To How Biden Handled The Withdrawal From Afghanistan
http://www.npr.org/2021/08/16/1028081817/congressional-reaction-to-bidens-afghanistan-withdrawal-has-been-scathing
Biden Finally Unifies Congress—Against His Afghanistan Withdrawal Debacle
In a rare display of bipartisanship, angry lawmakers of both parties are pushing
the president to do more to aid Afghan refugees.
Critics, both Democratic and Republican, have largely focused their attention on
the execution of the withdrawal, not its merits. The scene at the Kabul airport is
dire, with desperate Afghans clinging to planes as they take off—a situation that
has resulted in devastating loss of life.
Translators and other personnel who aided the American military are now in mortal
danger, and the claims by Biden himself that some special immigrant visa applicants
wished to stay in Afghanistan have been vigorously challenged by advocates for
refugees.
Many lawmakers have set up phone or email lines specifically to handle requests
for constituents seeking to get help for someone in Afghanistan.
http://newrepublic.com/article/163310/democrats-midterm-elections-afghanistan-withdrawal
(CNN)Congressional Democrats are preparing a series of hearings on the US withdrawal
from Afghanistan amid rising anger about the Biden administration's handling of the end
of the war, with the Taliban rapidly taking control and the US chaotically scrambling to
evacuate Americans and vulnerable Afghan allies.
House Speaker Nancy Pelosi said there would be a hearing in the Foreign Affairs
Committee early next week,
http://www.cnn.com/2021/08/18/politics/democratic-response-afghanistan-withdrawal/index.html
There are 330 million people in the USA, so I expect about that many opinions. Five links or 10 links doesn't mean squat in the scheme of things. Suddenly you are a fan of CNN or Pelosi it looks like. I'm going to support Biden on this decision, and accept the fact that it wasn't destined to go smoothly. I think he is explaining things just fine. So I'll break with some of your Democrat friends on this one.
Fathertime!
-
CNN: Democrats grapple with Afghanistan fallout after Biden administration
ignored their previous warnings
Democrats are now in the midst of a political firestorm and struggling to find
a way to both back President Joe Biden on an exit from Afghanistan many
thought was long overdue, while acknowledging the administration made
major tactical mistakes that could have been avoided.
http://www.cnn.com/2021/08/16/politics/democratic-reaction-biden-afghanistan/index.html (http://www.cnn.com/2021/08/16/politics/democratic-reaction-biden-afghanistan/index.html)
Mid-term is knocking on everyone's door.
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I've stated that I'm not a democrat, yet you dishonestly like to say that I am.
One thing is for certain, I'm not supportive of many republican policies.
Most Democrats aren't supportive of many GOP policies, especially when they
don't understand them. However, I won't call you a Democrat if you don't want
to be called one.
Suddenly you are a fan of CNN or Pelosi it looks like. I'm going to support Biden on this decision, and accept the fact that it wasn't destined to go smoothly. I think he is explaining things just fine. So I'll break with some of your Democrat friends on this one.
Fathertime!
I said that Biden screwed this up What you said is that "is just a grand and partisan
attempt to paint this situation inaccurately." You said "Mostly political theater, somewhat
entertaining reading the partisan silliness."
So I showed you Liberal news sources and Liberal politicians criticizing the same thing
that I was criticizing and I provided sources and links. Now you are moving the goalposts
and twisting things yet again.
I also showed News links that the Democrats in both the House and Senate are going to
investigate this administrations failure.
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...I'm going to support Biden on this decision, and accept the fact that it wasn't destined to go smoothly. I think he is explaining things just fine...
Certainly no doubt for me. Biden owned up on this one despite the fact his really only option was to void the peace deal and have us stay there for gawd knows how much longer.
One of the condition of Trump's peace deal was that the Taliban and the Afghan Government was to come to an agreement for power sharing and prisoner swap. They had 14 months to do so. They never came to any deal regarding the power sharing. Even the prisoner swap was almost never reached until the 11th hour.
The US should've included the Afghan government at the Doha on February 29,2020 despite the Talibans insistence they didn't want them there as they felt Ghani's administration was just a US puppet government. I still support the Trump administration for getting the deal done in spite of it, as the deal was conditioned there will be an ensuing meeting with Ghani's government. May 1st marks that 14th month. By this time, and according to the withdrawal plan, there were only 2,500 US soldier remained there. 2,500 in the entire country.
As it was, skirmishes started at the fringes of Afghanistan, and some government troops did in fact fought the Talibans. US military paid close attention to those fights. Almost 2,000 Afghan police force died, 6,000 surrendered, untold number injured and began defecting. At times the police force held the Taliban at bay, but slowly began to fall apart. Still the estimate was it'll take months, maybe even till the end of the year before a full takeover, at worst, happens. Hell, even contractors were never notified to evacuate when the military was suppose to send out an alarm if things began to unravel. No one expected the takeover would be as fast as it was.
The bucks stops with POTUS. Despite the unfortunate event, dude had cojones enough to own up to it. Biden may be scorned today, but proud of the dude for not putting us deeper and longer stuck in this wasteland.
Companies and cronies are majorly po'd with him because of the additional billion$ they now face to lose for bilking our nation because Biden didn't extend our stay.
Hooray!!!!
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Apparently British soldiers are now on joint patrol with the Taliban lol:
http://www.google.com/amp/s/www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2021/08/20/crazy-herediary-british-soldier-afghanistan/amp/
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Certainly no doubt for me. Biden owned up on this one despite the fact his really only option was to void the peace deal and have us stay there for gawd knows how much longer.
You are doing the BC either/or fallacy. It's not either/or
Either we stay in Afghanistan forever OR we leave 15,000 American citizens
trapped behind with the Taliban.
Only a complete idiot would choose to send the troops back before the civilians.
So you think that meant that we had to keep the troops there?!? NO, Biden
could told the civilians that they had to be out by June First or risk getting left
behind. He could have said two weeks later to get your civilian @ss to the airport
before July first or the Taliban will cut off your head and put it on a stick so we can
all watch on Youtube.
Biden is an idiot for NOT doing that. The fact that he is trying to get the troops
home is irrelevant to that point. The fact that a lot of company's got rich off of the
war is irrelevant to the point that some social workers are stuck in Pig-f#cky
Afghanistan and might never get back.
It's not either/or. It's incompetence and ineptitude on execution and he doesn't get
a pass for that. There were less than 2500 Americans killed in 20 years in Afghanistan.
Biden might have just doubled that.
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I've stated that I'm not a democrat, yet you dishonestly like to say that I am.
I fail to see where anyone has actually said that you are a Democrat. However, it is quite clear that you did not vote for Donald Trump. It is further obvious that you support Joe Biden and the Democrat policies so why not call a spade a spade and come out of the closet on that left side of life?
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I personally think Biden made the wrong call and he should be blamed for it. While I agree that long term the way the Afghan government fell apart made it never look like it could stand alone Biden should have played harder in negotiations and if necessary held on even if it risked entering another war and more lives lost until a deal was reached. I think Trump on that score would have succeeded in that. Biden has backed down to Russia on its Nordstream pipeline after the recent army mobilization near Ukraine and now backed down in Afghanistan so to me is looking weak.
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(http://media.townhall.com/Townhall/Car/b/aria_c18444520210816120100.jpg)
(http://media.townhall.com/Townhall/Car/b/sbr082221dAPC20210821024505.jpg)
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I fail to see where anyone has actually said that you are a Democrat.
it was deleted along with some other stuff.
t. However, it is quite clear that you did not vote for Donald Trump. It is further obvious that you support Joe Biden and the Democrat policies so why not call a spade a spade and come out of the closet on that left side of life?
I'm not supportive of the right wing on many things. There are certain topics where I lean more right. I only support biden where I feels he warrants support. I don't support his recent sanctions on the Nordstream 2, and probably more coming down the pipeline.
Fathertime!
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Biden has backed down to Russia on its Nordstream pipeline after the recent army mobilization near Ukraine and now backed down in Afghanistan so to me is looking weak.
What was biden supposed to do about the Nord steam pipeline? Why is it the US's call to decide how Russia and Germany do business like that? Biden threw out some sanctions yesterday. I'm curious why biden is hurling sanctions out there at all. What purpose does it serve at this point? The pipeline is inevitable, sticking out snout in how other nations do business like this can't be appreciated. Fruitless.
U.S. imposes Nord Stream 2 sanctions; opponents say they won't halt project
-The Biden administration on Friday slapped sanctions on a Russian ship and two companies involved in the Nord Stream 2 gas pipeline, but opponents of the nearly completed project said the measures would not stop it.
The sanctions were imposed on ship Ostap Sheremeta, ship owner JSC Nobility and construction company Konstanta, the State Department said in a report to congressional committees. A copy of the report was seen by Reuters.....
http://news.yahoo.com/u-issues-nord-stream-2-165833974.html?fr=sycsrp_catchall (http://news.yahoo.com/u-issues-nord-stream-2-165833974.html?fr=sycsrp_catchall)
Fathertime!
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You are doing the BC either/or fallacy. It's not either/or
Either we stay in Afghanistan forever OR we leave 15,000 American citizens
trapped behind with the Taliban.
You are a gleaming example of a fake news subscriber. Your partisan blame game is 14 months too late. Commercial flights didn’t stop operating until last Sunday. When the Doha Agreement was signed February 29, 2020, any and all American Companies and it’s employees knew, or should’ve know or been advised by, their respective employers; of the remaining periods with which it had left to begin their own respective demobilization program. Those silly *15,000 trapped Americans* had 14 months to leave, ferchrissakes!
$300 million/day is simply too darn hard to abandon , man.
The trump administration had a continuing obligation once that ink dried up in Doha to begin their withdrawal policy, not only to closely, comprehensively and continually advised American companies operating in Afghanistan, especially in concert with their US troop drawdown timeline, but to strongly encourage if not demand to exercise their parallel withdrawal program.
Just as important, immediately and properly staff their immigration processing to hasten procedures for allied Afghans to begin their registration and give those willing and able the necessary and immediate exit and relocation. While I strongly support the Doha Agreement, the lack of a broader withdrawal plan is the root cause of the current quagmire. Doha Agreement was weak, not only for its lack of withdrawal initiative planning, but also in its decision to exclude the afghan government.
Bush kicked the can for any concise exit from Afghanistan. Obama followed suit. Both are richly rewarded for their effort for their retirements. Trump drew the exit plan with a very narrow vision of what can happen when you pullout the only force that’s holding the opposition at bay from a country besieged by war for decades shadowy ruled by corrupt and warring war lords. Biden inherited the Doha Agreement and stayed within its limited conditioned stipulations.
April 28th the State Dept sent a tensed order for the embassy’s staff to begin leaving Afghanistan. May 15th, this cable was sent to all American firms operating in Afghanistan:
U.S. Embassy strongly suggests that U.S. citizens make plans to leave Afghanistan as soon as possible.
3 whole freaking months before the scene mainstream media started blasting TVs of chaos and partisan hacks began screaming, huffing and puffing.
Biden , despite the current circumstances, showed true leadership for staying the course of getting the US out of another corrupted US nation building program.
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What was biden supposed to do about the Nord steam pipeline? Why is it the US's call to decide how Russia and Germany do business like that? Biden threw out some sanctions yesterday. I'm curious why biden is hurling sanctions out there at all. What purpose does it serve at this point? The pipeline is inevitable, sticking out snout in how other nations do business like this can't be appreciated. Fruitless.
U.S. imposes Nord Stream 2 sanctions; opponents say they won't halt project
-The Biden administration on Friday slapped sanctions on a Russian ship and two companies involved in the Nord Stream 2 gas pipeline, but opponents of the nearly completed project said the measures would not stop it.
The sanctions were imposed on ship Ostap Sheremeta, ship owner JSC Nobility and construction company Konstanta, the State Department said in a report to congressional committees. A copy of the report was seen by Reuters.....
http://news.yahoo.com/u-issues-nord-stream-2-165833974.html?fr=sycsrp_catchall (http://news.yahoo.com/u-issues-nord-stream-2-165833974.html?fr=sycsrp_catchall)
Fathertime!
Biden has obviously realised his mistake band is backpedaling. As I understood it the pipeline was at a stage where they couldn't progress anymore with the sanctions in place as they were. I'm guessing the temporary lifting of those sanctions allowed them to get to a stage where they got what they needed to complete the job. The pipeline will make Russia a lot stronger economically and strategically and spread their influence into Central Europe. Them claiming additional territories may become a strong possibility.
The way Biden has handled the Afghanistan situation is a complete disaster. It was a bad move to go in there in the first place but he pulled out in the wrong way and destabilised the country giving it no chance.
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As I understood it the pipeline was at a stage where they couldn't progress anymore with the sanctions in place as they were. I'm guessing the temporary lifting of those sanctions allowed them to get to a stage where they got what they needed to complete the job.
Where did come up with that? You think countries such as Germany/Russia couldn't finish their work because of US sanctions? Most of the world doesn't even cooperate with the US and the ridiculous sanctions we fling about. Why would they cooperate, they could be next. The pipeline is inevitable and we (The US) should be remembered as an obstacle, by the Germans. I don't see enacting sanctions as projecting strength
Fathertime!
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Brookings Institute made a nice comprehensive accounting of activities in Afghanistan since 2001 to around 2011. Not sure why it discontinued after 2011.
http://www.brookings.edu/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/index20111231.pdf
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$300 million/day is simply too darn hard to abandon , man.
Bullcr@p! 15,000 people were not paid millions to work in Afghanistan.
People got double or triple wages to work in Afghanistan not millions.
Biden was in charge and he should have told everyone to GTFO but he
didn't. If Biden made a big announcement that all US citizens need to
be on a plane headed out by July first then again on July 30 I wouldn't
be beating up Biden, but he didn't.
Biden does one thing right and now he gets excused for being a crooked
f#ck up?
I don't get you.
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In 2006, when the Israeli-Lebanon war flared up, Lebanese-Canadians demanded to be evacuated. The Harper government, at considerable expense, evacuated approximately 14,370 Canadians by chartering planes (there are over 60,000 Canadians in Lebanon). Do you know how many of those Canadians were not of Lebanese descent? Zero. They were Canadians "of convenience".
I suspect the majority of the 15,000 Americans trapped in Afghanistan are dual citizens. It doesn't make them less American. However, you don't know how many of them are "trapped", versus staying with family, deciding what options they have, etc.
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Bullcr@p! 15,000 people were not paid millions to work in Afghanistan.
People got double or triple wages to work in Afghanistan not millions.
Biden was in charge and he should have told everyone to GTFO but he
didn't. If Biden made a big announcement that all US citizens need to
be on a plane headed out by July first then again on July 30 I wouldn't
be beating up Biden, but he didn't.
Biden does one thing right and now he gets excused for being a crooked
f#ck up?
I don't get you.
There you go again. I need not repeat that there were 14 months after signing the Doha Agreement to begin to demobilize. 14 months. State department cabled a stern message 3 months before now to leave Afghanistan as soon as possible.
Double, triple compensation you mentioned, if true, caused these people to ignore such and decided to dragged their booties, and made a conscious decision to stay despite the above knowledge and event.
I can think of a much suited description to describe their current condition instead of *trapped^ that you’re fond of using, LMAO.
Now you can keep your partisan hack about * trapped Americans* as much as you like, bottom line, the fact is they all had, and received, more than ample time to leave - they simply did not.
You can blame Biden for this till the cow’s come home, but you would also be denying reality. I chose not to subscribe to fake news diatribe myself.
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Bullcr@p! 15,000 people were not paid millions to work in Afghanistan.
People got double or triple wages to work in Afghanistan not millions.
And the companies they worked for that DOD and other agencies contracted? IIRC quite a few scandals in the past, overcharging for meals, fuel and other profitable goods. Some are civilian contractors doing military jobs, from cooking to clearing unexploded ordnance. I call such our hidden military.
Some, like my friend and military team chief went after such high paid jobs. He was killed by a roadside bomb in Iraq. Kinda sad.. he was retired, had a decent income at home and spent his time fishing. His family didn't want him to go. The company he worked for got the big bucks. Double, triple, quadruple time was chump change in the grand scheme of things.
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Brookings Institute made a nice comprehensive accounting of activities in Afghanistan since 2001 to around 2011. Not sure why it discontinued after 2011.
http://www.brookings.edu/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/index20111231.pdf (http://www.brookings.edu/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/index20111231.pdf)
Note [page 24] how much the opium production increased during the Obama/Biden administration.
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Hi Everyone,
A couple of you have sent me PMs, and in responding this topic caught my attention.
I worked for the UN in the region over 40 years ago and went to Afghanistan as a tourist before the Soviets invaded. I knew the Afghani pronounced their caital Kabul as ka-BOOL' rather than CA'-ble. That brief visit has kept me interested in the country, and I have enjoyed subsequent conversations with the rare Afghani I meet in life and the occasional returning soldier.
I strongly agreed with the decision to go after OBL and give the Taliban a whooping in the process. Yet, I was against occupying the nation on a long-term basis, especially for 20 years. IMO we could have accomplished more at a much lower cost by a Charlie Wilson strategy to work with the tribes, warlords, etc. on a decentralized basis rather than build a centralized American-style Army with the inherent corruption. Congress did not listen to Charlie Wilson after his remarkable success, and Congress after Congress, and President after President continued the same mistake, with the inertia probably fueled by incorrect reports from the military generals and DOD contractors.
The intitaiatves of progressive Democrats are forging some profound changes in America, changes that will be felt years away. Any early signs of trouble are dismissed as "transitory." However, Afghanistan is one present, clear and stark signal that the Democrats are grossly incomptetent.
The descision to minimize our presence in Afghanistan was correct. However, the plan to execute this decision was incompetent. Whose idea was it to withdraw the troops before evacuating the US citizens? Whose idea was it to abandon Bagram airport built by the Soviets? These examples make one think that maybe Biden is indeed in-charge.
Lets hope that Biden is able to keep the so called kinder and gentler Talliban from killing our citizens. Yes, many of those citizens are DOD contractors, yet many were doing charity-type missions such as teaching, healthcare, etc. for international organizations and NGOs. Their safety is literally in the hands of the Talliban, whose decentarized command includes radicals.
And then we have the issue of Afghani refugees who helped the US military.
Enough.
BTW, I am having a blast. My major problem is needing two sequenced surgeries on my ankle. I reluctantly accepted my Disabled Parking Permit, yet here are so many other decrepit old dudes that frequently I can not find an open space. Surprisingly the parking places reserved for Veterans are used less.
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Note [page 24] how much the opium production increased during the Obama/Biden administration.
Insatiable demand from the 'exceptional' US and our supplier.
Fathertime!
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BTW, I am having a blast. My major problem is needing two sequenced surgeries on my ankle. I reluctantly accepted my Disabled Parking Permit, yet here are so many other decrepit old dudes that frequently I can not find an open space. Surprisingly the parking places reserved for Veterans are used less.
Good to see your input here.
I have been using my veteran status to get a 10% price reduction every day at Lowes for several years, but just recently noticed I could also use the parking spots reserved for veterans. They also have spots for wounded veterans.
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I almost choked watching the news shows today when our State Department types said that we would hope to learn from our mistakes in Afghanistan.
That's because I thought we were supposed to have learned from our mistakes in Viet Nam.
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This article illustrates my point about a decentralized military approach in Afghanistan. Does anyone think Biden will be supplying this enclave and others?
http://www.dw.com/en/why-afghanistans-panjshir-remains-out-of-talibans-reach/a-58921687
The article mentions the heroic Massoud who was assassinated by al queda before thier 9-11 attack. Al queda knew Massoud had a large following in Afghanistan and would have the capability to defeat al queda and maybe even lead the nation. In 2011-12 relatively small teams of the US military teamed with such leaders. They missed OBL yet easily pushed al queda out of Afghanistan. Coordinated US airpower played a huge role.
Biden could support this decntralized effort again if Taliban gave us trouble, yet I doubt he will.
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Awesome synopsis of how Afghanistan got to where it is today. Listen very carefully to many of the key details of this commentary.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=39dN_WnIayU
2,500 troop level was never enough to hold up and ensure a smooth evacuation for all Americans (who desires to leave), allies nd SIV candidates in the entire country by any stretch of the imagination.
April 13th meeting, in anticipation of the May 1st peace deal cutoff date, Biden announced to continue troop withdrawal to less than a thousand. His prime directive was to ensure and protect the US embassy and KIA. At this level, Gen. Milley and Defense Secretary Austin were left to decide how to best accommodate the directives with the remaining number of troops. The directive and decisions were all predicated in the reliance that Afghan forces would deliver their end of the bargain, which at worst provide enough time for total American and ally withdrawal.
April 28th, the State Department sent a tensed order for all Embassy staff to leave Afghanistan. May 15th, the State Department sent a cable to all American companies and personnel to leave Afghanistan as soon as possible.
* I don't understand what Gen. Mark Millet mean when he kept saying *Americans who desires to leave*. I wonder if this was some type of code for the alleged number of military personnel that had been mentioned to stay as a 'counter-terrorism team'
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The US abandoned Bagram Airfield in July under the dark of night. They did not notify anyone, not even the Afghan Force Commander. It wasn't until two hours later did the commander found out the airfield was all but deserted. They followed suit not long after. While Bagram would've been a better airfield to facilitate and handle an evacuation this large (two take off ramp vs only one at KIA), it was 30 miles from Kabul, and would've required increasing troop levels beyond the 2,500 floor level Trump had handed off to Biden. This would've signaled to the Talibans that the US are making a move counter to its end of the deal.
May 1, 2021, the Talibans only controlled 19% of Afghanistan when they began their advance. By the end of June, they've captured 30%. Mid-July, 50%. All these time - American civilians could've gone and began their departure.
I maintain support ending this war, and still support the notion now is as bad/good time as any other to bug-out of Afghanistan. With that, support Biden for not backing down because had he done so, we'll likely be drawn in a situation where the deal is severed, with Talibans all over the country, and we'd be stuck fighting an unnecessary, wasteful war all over again.
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Good analysis GQ, yet today's actions are IMO not the "best" worst option. What we see today is the result of incompetence. US citizen withdrawal should have been organized better and started much earlier. In the words of our ally Tony Blair, this is "imbecilic." The Biden plan is akin to thinking other shareholders would not sell their shares as bankruptcy became imminent.
A key example is Bagram air base. It should have been preserved until the bitter end.
The US abandoned Bagram Airfield in July under the dark of night. They did not notify anyone, not even the Afghan Force Commander. It wasn't until two hours later did the commander found out the airfield was all but deserted. They followed suit not long after.
Often overlooked, abandoning Bagram included releasing 4,800 captured ISIS and al queda fighters incarcerated there. All are finding their way back to rebuild thier movements. Some would welcome a suicide mission. In other words, we need to get Americans out of Afghanistan ASAP.
I maintain support ending this war, and still support the notion now is as bad/good time as any other to bug-out of Afghanistan. With that, support Biden for not backing down because had he done so, we'll likely be drawn in a situation where the deal is severed, with Talibans all over the country, and we'd be stuck fighting an unnecessary, wasteful war all over again.
Surely we have given up on nation building and creating democracies, not just because of the failures in Iraq and Afghanistan, but also because our own democracy is not functioning well. There is another aspect, an important mission, that involves deploying our troops on foreign lands. Today the US has small contingents of anti-terrorist military deployed in many scattered hotspots in Africa and the Middle East. Such is entirely different from nation building.
OTOH, I am not sure a woke military would make competent anti-terrorist fighters.
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Last week Biden gave a deadline Aug 31st for all civilians to be evacuated.
Then advisors said we may not achieve that goal.
State Dept. releases warning telling citizens to avoid the airport as there were reports of threats to their lives.
UK and German soldiers bravely left the airport and provided escort for US and their citizens while US soldiers were ordered to remain at the airport.
Biden gave a statement admitting that the Taliban is control over there.
Today, the Taliban gave Biden an ultimatum to get US soldiers out of Afghanistan by Aug 31st or face the consequences.
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Good analysis GQ, yet today's actions are IMO not the "best" worst option. What we see today is the result of incompetence. US citizen withdrawal should have been organized better and started much earlier. In the words of our ally Tony Blair, this is "imbecilic." The Biden plan is akin to thinking other shareholders would not sell their shares as bankruptcy became imminent.
A key example is Bagram air base. It should have been preserved until the bitter end.
Often overlooked, abandoning Bagram included releasing 4,800 captured ISIS and al queda fighters incarcerated there. All are finding their way back to rebuild thier movements. Some would welcome a suicide mission. In other words, we need to get Americans out of Afghanistan ASAP.
Surely we have given up on nation building and creating democracies, not just because of the failures in Iraq and Afghanistan, but also because our own democracy is not functioning well. There is another aspect, an important mission, that involves deploying our troops on foreign lands. Today the US has small contingents of anti-terrorist military deployed in many scattered hotspots in Africa and the Middle East. Such is entirely different from nation building.
OTOH, I am not sure a woke military would make competent anti-terrorist fighters.
Hi Gator-
*Imbecilic* lol, first time I read this used in this manner.
I agreed with the bolded part with a caveat. I agree that the evacuation should've taken place much earlier. Much earlier meaning shortly after the Doha Agreement. I have noted this sentiment upthread. Very likely, that's where we would differ.
14 months should've been a lifetime to evacuate every man, woman and child they needed to. Why didn't this happen, I do not know.
I am reminded of hurricane Katrina, where people were notified by the federal government to evacuate but many didn't listen and defied the order and decided to stay firm. When the sh!t hit the fan, they went on and blamed the federal government for not handling the matter better. Akin to environmentalist protesting in preserving our forestry on the west coast, and keep it in its natural state. But when wildfire ignites, and with massive amounts of kinder, dry woods and dense trees providing endless amount of fuel, then the blame game follow shortly after. Everyone gets blamed, except the environmentalist.
These American civilians had 14 months to demobilize. The Trump administration, and maybe the ensuing Biden administration, should've recognize the dire need to speedy up the SIV processing to hasten the visas for our Afghans allies, and evacuate them expediently within that 14 months.
Most if not all, unfortunately, was left to rely on one of the tenets of the peace deal which was the Afghan govt to come to a peace deal with the Taliban. That never happened. In hindsight, the inclusion of the Afghan govt in Doha back in 2/29/20 loomed large today. The Afghan government should've been part of that original negotiation in Doha.
Just MHO.
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Hot Off the Press...
The Taliban said that if Biden extend the withdrawal date of the 31st, there will be consequences and will be considered breaking the peace deal.
http://news.sky.com/story/afghanistan-taliban-warns-there-will-be-consequences-if-biden-delays-withdrawal-of-us-troops-12388436 (http://news.sky.com/story/afghanistan-taliban-warns-there-will-be-consequences-if-biden-delays-withdrawal-of-us-troops-12388436)
I did get information about the term Gen. Milley kept using *Americans who desires to leave*. Many are actually dual-citizens and who had already announced preferring to stay in Afghanistan. Rightly or wrongly, these people are making their own choices.
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(http://media.townhall.com/Townhall/Car/b/gv082321dAPR20210823064502.jpg)
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The Taliban said that if Biden extend the withdrawal date of the 31st, there will be consequences and will be considered breaking the peace deal.
This could get very dangerous. I assume Biden will give the store away to the Talliban to avoid a disaster.
I did get information about the term Gen. Milley kept using *Americans who desires to leave*. Many are actually dual-citizens and who had already announced preferring to stay in Afghanistan. Rightly or wrongly, these people are making their own choices.
Some may want to stay, yet they would not be a large number. The international scene attracts some characters who find expat life more to their liking than the rat race within their home countries. It is akin to how people settle along America's East Coast. They migrate from the north. Many stop and settle early in the journey. Others keep looking for something different and keep heading south, and the culture changes. Almost all stop along the way yet a few real oddballs keep heading South until they reach the end of the road.....the Keys. Afghanistan is indeed the end of the road.
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The international scene attracts some characters who find expat life more to their liking than the rat race within their home countries.
I guess that makes me a character.
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I guess that makes me a character.
For sure you are a character (in a good way).
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Some may want to stay, yet they would not be a large number. The international scene attracts some characters who find expat life more to their liking than the rat race within their home countries. It is akin to how people settle along America's East Coast. They migrate from the north. Many stop and settle early in the journey. Others keep looking for something different and keep heading south, and the culture changes. Almost all stop along the way yet a few real oddballs keep heading South until they reach the end of the road.....the Keys. Afghanistan is indeed the end of the road.
You just reminded me of the plight of the Vietnam veterans after the war. Untold numerous stories of veterans staying and/or going back to Vietnam to find their inner peace. Like this for example.
http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-36363537 (http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-36363537)
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Biden promised during the George Snuffaluffagus interview that he would
not leave until all Americans are out. Biden is offering Suitcases of cash to
Taliban Henchmen to get Americans through their corridor surrounding the
airport.
Biden won’t extend Afghanistan deadline as Taliban reiterates demand for US forces to leave
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/biden-wont-extend-afghanistan-deadline-official-says
Afghanistan: Most Voters Say Biden Administration Not Doing Enough to Rescue Americans
Twenty-eight percent (28%) say the Biden administration is doing enough to rescue Americans.
http://tinyurl.com/hehtf7y3
Americans not being allowed to leave Afghanistan 'are already hostage' to the Taliban
http://www.foxnews.com/media/hegseth-us-citizens-evacuated-afghanistan-biden
Biden admin doubles down on Psaki claim Americans not stranded in Afghanistan
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/biden-wont-extend-afghanistan-deadline-official-says
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This could get very dangerous. I assume Biden will give the store away to the Talliban to avoid a disaster.
You can be sure that there are suitcases of cash being dumped in the laps
of anybody who has an AK47. That's is Democrat diplomacy 101, pay them
off and dump money on the problem. A tiny amount of planning and Biden
would be looking incredible here. But no fear of that happening, Team Biden's
incompetence knows no bounds.
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There is a lot we don't know, and probably the public should not know at this point. Of course, the US won't state all Americans are out, even if all those who want are already out. Keeps a foot in the door.
A number of countries are working on keeping the airport open after the US leaves, Turkey who is running and guarding the airport, Germans, and some others. It's not like it is only a US effort and has been in the planning for some time.
http://www.reuters.com/world/asia-pacific/turkey-offers-run-kabul-airport-after-natos-afghan-withdrawal-officials-2021-06-08/
The Taliban have longer term incentives from many sides to keep things somewhat civil. I hope they do so.
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For sure you are a character (in a good way).
Yes he is.
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You just reminded me of the plight of the Vietnam veterans after the war. Untold numerous stories of veterans staying and/or going back to Vietnam to find their inner peace. Like this for example.
http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-36363537 (http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-36363537)
I returned to Vietnam 40 years after serving as an Army officer. Even visited Hanoi and beyond, and saw the dark smoke in the skies above China.
I found Ho Chi Minh City a dynamic modern city. The life of the peasants and villages had improved dramatically, probably better than if left to the corrupt leadership of the South. North Vietnam entered as liberators of their brothers, not as conquerors. There was no revenge. Young people still lined up and participated in communist style rallies.
It could be a place for a Westerner to live today. Not for me, yet the serenity of Laos was appealing.
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The Taliban have longer term incentives from many sides to keep things somewhat civil. I hope they do so.
Regarding long term planning, the Taliban has always explained, "Americans have a clock, the Afghani have time." Over many years tea shops were frequented by a long line of Soviet then American soldiers. Individual soldiers stayed for a year or two, then left, replaced by another soldier. Now all the foreign soldiers are gone. Now only Afghani men stop for tea. Little has changed in 500 years.
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North Vietnam entered as liberators of their brothers, not as conquerors. There was no revenge.
Hard to believe.
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On the news tonight, I heard a Senior Taliban guy say: "We don't intend to let Afghan people leave the country."
And reporters said: "Taliban guards are no longer letting Afghan people through to the airport."
So don't know how we are going to get out the tens of thousands of Afghan 'helpers' that we have promised to help leave. Many of this group are already inside the airport compound, but they are still just a fraction of the total.
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Hard to believe.
I heard this a few years later from a German journalist who was at the US embassy when the last helicopter left. He said the crowds then dispersed quickly. He rushed to the top floor and saw a cigarette still smoldering, probably left by a major who probably said something like "Fuck it, we are out of here!" while extinguishing his cigarette before boarding the last copter.
The journalist then walked to central Saigon. ARVN soldiers had discarded their uniforms and stood in their doorways in their underwear (the customary dress style for men) to await the NVA. The NVA arrived in jeeps, trucks and tanks, broadcasing on loudspeakers - "we come to liberate."
I talked with a couple of guides during my trip. One was my age. He was telling wild stories about Americans using poisonous gas.
The next day the NVA rounded up some black market types and executed them. Message received.
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August 31 will be an interesting day to learn if the air lift is as effective as the Biden admin claims.
I still have trouble believing our military planners are this stupid. Surely the Biden staff were making these decisions. Military officers when they start putting on stars become political as they strive to add more stars. They forget how to say "No" to politicians. An exception would be Gen. Mattis who opposed Trump's withdrawal decision for Afghanistan. Some of the current generals should have resigned before working with Biden's flawed withdrawal plan and his timid response to the Taliban.
Will we get the true story?
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Now only Afghani men stop for tea. Little has changed in 500 years.
Hi Gator,
What will change for many is the loss of a good paycheck.
How do you think that will change things on the ground there for the common folk? Radicalism gains a good foothold when making a living gets tough.
Sort of makes sense why the army fell apart. Can't eat idealism.
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August 31 will be an interesting day to learn if the air lift is as effective as the Biden admin claims.
Much will depend on the airport staying open, and if Taliban promises that travel won't be restricted hold.
Inevitably, someone will get left behind for one reason or another, but there are likely alternative routes set up for getting some stragglers out of the country.
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Here is the Afghan Army version of why it all fell apart:
http://www.nytimes.com/2021/08/25/opinion/afghanistan-taliban-army.html
Essentially they were set up as a modern western fighting army but then had all access necessary to support & maintain a modern western style army cut off. So a lot of their technically superior weapons became useless pretty quickly as all the contractors that helped service & maintain that equipment were pulled.
Other reasons also but that appears to be the main one so setting them up as a modern western army seems to have been a big mistake.
That said the Taliban must have a big support base to grow in number as it has done while most Afghans haven't taken up arms against them en-mass. The Afghan government have 20 years & a lot of money to get organised for this eventuality and failed miserably. It does appear though that setting up a more basic serviceable Afghan military is what should have happened in the first place here.
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North Vietnam entered as liberators of their brothers, not as conquerors. There was no revenge. Young people still lined up and participated in communist style rallies.
It could be a place for a Westerner to live today. Not for me, yet the serenity of Laos was appealing.
Over 800,000 Vietnamese took to boats to escape the communists. Between 500,000 and 1,000,000 Vietnamese who remained were sent to "re-education camps" (meaning, prisons) by the communists. That doesn't sound like there was no revenge, or that they were hailed as liberators.
I would put no store in rallies. They are specatacles.
I have a friend who is married to a Vietnamese woman. I just had coffee with him yesterday. He and his wife spend part of their winter in Vietnam. He told me there is still crushing poverty. He also said everyone there knows the government is corrupt and they cannot rely on it for anything.
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North Vietnam entered as liberators of their brothers, not as conquerors.
There was no revenge. Young people still lined up and participated in
communist style rallies.
It could be a place for a Westerner to live today. Not for me, yet the
serenity of Laos was appealing.
Hahahaha! You are joking
Between 1 to 2.5 million South Vietnamese were captured and moved to “re-education camps”.
These “Re-education camps” were described like prison camps where people had to do hard
physical work, some of it were very dangerous such as minefield sweeping.
Although a lot of people died while working, starvation and disease were the major causes
of death. An estimated 165,000 prisoners died in those re-education camps.
“New Economic Zones” was another program implemented by the communist government
in the aftermath of the war. 1 million Southern Vietnamese were forcibly relocated to
uninhabited mountainous forested areas.
It is estimated that between 20,000 and 155,000 Vietnamese died performing hard labor
in these “New Economic Zones”.
An estimated of 200,000-400,000 boat people out of around 2 millions that fled died at sea.
Source
http://thevietnamwar.info/what-happened-after-the-vietnam-war/
"By 1979, civilians in Vietnamese cities were subject to food rationing. Most
received a paltry two kilograms of rice and 200 grams of meat each per month."
Less than half a pound of meat per month and less than 5 pounds of rice per month
It must have been paradise!!
http://alphahistory.com/vietnamwar/post-war-vietnam/#Purges_and_re-education
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August 31 will be an interesting day to learn if the air lift is as effective as the Biden admin claims.
It most definitely will be. Not only for the situation in Afghanistan, but it also marks the 90th day for Biden to tell the public the result of the Intelligence investigation of the lab leak allegations.
As with Afghanistan, I'm not putting too much stock with our current *intelligence* proficiency. Like NATO & the UN, I hope we find it in our collective hearts to stop funding these institutions along with the CIA.
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After the Vietnamese Communists took over, my aunts and uncles in Saigon were jailed, sometimes beat. When they were allowed to shower, they were given a cup of water. They were fed rotten rice everyday. They might get a piece of meat on holidays. When they came to America, I was 14 yo and when they seen my remote control car, they said a person would get arresting in Vietnam if they had that kind of technology.
After the Vietnam war, the Vietnamese Communist invaded Cambodia and went to war against China. Vietnamese couldn't catch a break. Fortunately they later embraced Capitalism as it helped rebuild the country.
I'm willing to bet the Vietnamese after America left had it better than the Afghans will. Taliban is already knocking on doors and reviewing people's phones to see if they have a Christian app or anything else they'd disapprove of. I remember an Afghan I know in America telling me when he lived there before 9/11 they'd routinely stop soccer games so they'd have an audience while they start chopping off hands, feet, and heads of people who allegedly committed crimes.
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I did get information about the term Gen. Milley kept using *Americans who desires to leave*. Many are actually dual-citizens and who had already announced preferring to stay in Afghanistan. Rightly or wrongly, these people are making their own choices.
Many are actually dual-citizens and who had already announced preferring to stay in Afghanistan.
I don't believe that.
Actually, the choice involves more than that. After all who would willingly stay in that environment? Facts are that many Americans are distressed because when they leave ... certain death awaits their Afghan partners who can't. Of course the politicians with their sacks all tucked in can live with that can't they?
When you have to choose an ~either/or~ it is really not much of a choice is it? A real choice would involve other options.
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Also....there were Americans who were stranded in various other parts of the country. How are they supposed to get to Kabul?
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I did get information about the term Gen. Milley kept using *Americans who desires to leave*. Many are actually dual-citizens and who had already announced preferring to stay in Afghanistan. Rightly or wrongly, these people are making their own choices.
I will qualify by stating that reports are that those who can leave are staying behind because their immediate family are not allowed to leave.
One might call that a preference but I wouldn't.
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Blinken added that U.S. forces have an arrangement with the Taliban to facilitate departure of those who want to leave even after the August 31 deadline for U.S. military withdrawal.
“The Taliban have made public and private commitments to provide and permit safe passage for Americans… and Afghans at risk going forward, past August 31,” he said.
http://news.yahoo.com/state-department-reveals-number-americans-180535648.html
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I don't believe that.
Actually, the choice involves more than that. After all who would willingly stay in that environment? Facts are that many Americans are distressed because when they leave ... certain death awaits their Afghan partners who can't. Of course the politicians with their sacks all tucked in can live with that can't they?
Who really knows with absolute certainty.
The administration believes many of the 1,000 who are currently unaccounted for may be dual citizens of the United States and Afghanistan.
...the U.S. has evacuated 4,500 U.S. passport holders since Aug. 14 out of 6,000 Americans the State Department believes were in Afghanistan at that time. The department is “aggressively reaching out” to the other 1,000 Americans in Afghanistan but said many of them may not want to leave.
When you have to choose an ~either/or~ it is really not much of a choice is it? A real choice would involve other options.
It depends. For Afghanistan, one of the choices available opens up to a multitude of options. It doesn't have to be USA v Afghanistan.
In terms of just the general 'either/or', no argument there, which is largely my point in the WMVM v WOVO debate. One can't make a right choice if there were no choices to begin. But this really isn't the thread for that, eh? :P
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What will change for many is the loss of a good paycheck.
The biggest "paychecks" were stolen by corrupt Afghan leaders (e. g. pocketing salaries for "ghost battalions"). The top tier interpreters and local workers for US AID certainly made a better living, yet they are now trying to get out if they have not already left. Some US expenditures surely made its way into the Afghan economy. Yet the majority of villagers saw none of this.
How do you think that will change things on the ground there for the common folk? Radicalism gains a good foothold when making a living gets tough.
The urban economies will suffer, yet the villages will be the same. Poppy growers may even see a revival.
Radicalism? Is this not shariah law? The Taliban drew its support from the impoverished villages where shariah law has been practiced for a thousand years.
So Afghan life will be like what I saw when travelling there 35 years ago, a village agrarian life, which was not too far removed from life a thousand years ago. Not a world for women.
Sort of makes sense why the army fell apart. Can't eat idealism.
The idealism was in the minds of the US State Dept and the DoD and maybe a military-industrial complex. As I mentioned before, a national army never made sense, especially with corrupt Afghan generals. We should have selected warlords and just paid them. They would have spent the money more efficiently.
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Over 800,000 Vietnamese took to boats to escape the communists.
Carrying the parents of my current dentist. Many of Vietnam's best escaped and became a productive part of America. That and embargos slowed the transformation of Vietnam.
Between 500,000 and 1,000,000 Vietnamese who remained were sent to "re-education camps" (meaning, prisons) by the communists. That doesn't sound like there was no revenge, or that they were hailed as liberators.
They were not Kmer Rouge, and in fact did Commie Vietnam not oust Pol Pot and stop his atrocities.
I have a friend who is married to a Vietnamese woman. I just had coffee with him yesterday. He and his wife spend part of their winter in Vietnam. He told me there is still crushing poverty. He also said everyone there knows the government is corrupt and they cannot rely on it for anything.
Not what I saw, nor my dentist who returns to Vietnam every year for a holiday and business investment.
From the World Bank,
Vietnam's shift from a centrally planned to a market economy has transformed the country from one of the poorest in the world into a lower middle-income country. Vietnam now is one of the most dynamic emerging countries in East Asia region.
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After the Vietnam war, the Vietnamese Communist invaded Cambodia and went to war against China. Vietnamese couldn't catch a break. Fortunately they later embraced Capitalism as it helped rebuild the country.
As I commented above.
I'm willing to bet the Vietnamese after America left had it better than the Afghans will.
This is the worrisome part. In a civil war, one side wins and the other side suffers. The Taliban strategy is similar to what Mao accomplished against Chiang Kai-shek. Mao controlled the rural areas and Chiang Kai-shek the cities. Mao encircled the cities. Chiang forces resisted but were vastly outnumbered and had to retrast.
Key differences. Unlike Mao's forces, the Afghani army outnumbered the Taliban. Unlike Chiang Kai-shek, Ashraf Ghani had no Taiwan to escape to with his modern thinking Afhani followers. So he fled to live on his own with millions stolen from Afghan coffers.
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The idealism was in the minds of the US State Dept and the DoD and maybe a military-industrial complex. As I mentioned before, a national army never made sense, especially with corrupt Afghan generals. We should have selected warlords and just paid them. They would have spent the money more efficiently.
Wasn't that the US strategy in USSR days? Will the US taxpayer be on the hook for some time to come reverting to a similar strategy against ISIS-K and whatever follows?
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“The Taliban have made public and private commitments to provide and permit safe passage for Americans… and Afghans at risk going forward, past August 31,”
Let us hope this is the case for stranded Americans and the so called kinder and gentler verison of today's Taliban. Nevertheless, Biden's execution of the withdrawal was fraught with mistake after mistake. It needlessly placed many Americans in harm's way. Something really diastrous could have happened, and still could.
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Let us hope this is the case for stranded Americans and the so called kinder and gentler verison of today's Taliban. Nevertheless, Biden's execution of the withdrawal was fraught with mistake after mistake. It needlessly placed many Americans in harm's way. Something really diastrous could have happened, and still could.
Curious why you think Biden carry full responsibility on the withdrawal? After all, the deal was 14 (17 Post-5/1 to 8/31 extension) months old and everyone knew, been advised, or should've been aware that there will be US/Coalition troop number draw down with a target date of May 1st.
They've been repeatedly told to leave. Not that they had to be told at all...
Finally, a timeline (http://www.factcheck.org/2021/08/timeline-of-u-s-withdrawal-from-afghanistan/)
Nov. 17, 2020 — Acting Secretary of Defense Christopher Miller formally announces (http://www.defense.gov/Newsroom/Transcripts/Transcript/Article/2418641/acting-secretary-miller-announces-troop-levels-in-afghanistan-and-iraq/) that the U.S. will reduce U.S. forces in Afghanistan to 2,500 by Jan. 15, 2021.
LMAO. 5 days before the inauguration!!!
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Wasn't that the US strategy in USSR days?
That was the two largest military forces in the world facing each other for world domination. Afgahnistan was suppose to be about eliminating threats of terrorist attacks. We accomplished that quickly, then decided to change the strategy and stay for 20 years.
Will the US taxpayer be on the hook for some time to come reverting to a similar strategy against ISIS-K and whatever follows?
They will be back. If Taliban supports them, we could always do the decapitation tactic, i. e. Soleimani (which happened not long before Trump started negotiating with the Taliban). Or do that other thing - dropping another MOAB (mother of all bombs). he he
Who knows, with our pervious border maybe some ISIS members have already entered the US and are now planning strikes.
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Curious why you think Biden carry full responsibility on the withdrawal? After all, the deal was 14 (17 Post-5/1 to 8/31 extension) months old and everyone knew, been advised, or should've been aware that there will be US/Coalition troop number draw down with a target date of May 1st.
They've been repeatedly told to leave. Not that they had to be told at all...
America agrees with the decision to withdraw. It is the execution of the actual withdrawal where I point blame at Biden and whoever was persuading him.
We have been in a withdrawal for 10 years, so our intent was obvious. Our troop levels had dwindled from 110,000 in 2011 to around 10,000 in 2015. And Trump eventually took the levels down to 2,500 or so. America's direction was clear for more than 14 months, although there was debate about maintaining a small presence for years.
Who knows how Trump would have handled the actual withdrawal? I can not believe it would have been as chaotic. The Taliban leaders knew Trump would assassinate them if Americans were killed. Perhaps Biden is telling them the same, although Biden does not have any scalps such as Solemani hanging from his chest.
While no Americans have been killed, we have lost tons of sophisticated weaponry. Plus, we certainly don't look like a superpower.
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Gator,
big bang, but not a lot of bang for the buck with MOAB's, about half the cost of a B61 nuke@15million or so.
Last one killed only 34 or so?
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America agrees with the decision to withdraw. It is the execution of the actual withdrawal where I point blame at Biden and whoever was persuading him.
Success or failure can only be measured when we're out. As for equipment and such, seems much was taken out already. I doubt anything really sensitive was left behind, likely already stripped and shipped, or disabled/destroyed.
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America agrees with the decision to withdraw. It is the execution of the actual withdrawal where I point blame at Biden and whoever was persuading him.
We have been in a withdrawal for 10 years, so our intent was obvious. Our troop levels had dwindled from 110,000 in 2011 to around 10,000 in 2015. And Trump eventually took the levels down to 2,500 or so. America's direction was clear for more than 14 months, although there was debate about maintaining a small presence for years.
Who knows how Trump would have handled the actual withdrawal? I can not believe it would have been as chaotic. The Taliban leaders knew Trump would assassinate them if Americans were killed. Perhaps Biden is telling them the same, although Biden does not have any scalps such as Solemani hanging from his chest.
While no Americans have been killed, we have lost tons of sophisticated weaponry. Plus, we certainly don't look like a superpower.
There's a good illustration of the timeline since the Doha Agreement. My point is not about which POTUS should be held responsible, but the point why the non-military personnel not hasten to leave the country knowing what was, and is, happening in-country. That's 14-17 long months to bug out.
Further, intentionally cutting down the troop level to 2,500 mid-January (that's half the number of the released Taliban/ISIL-K/Al Qaeda fighters that went back to battle), 5 months BEFORE the Doha deal was agreed upon, despite repeated warnings from the State Department and Pentagon. The Talibans not only kept up the violence, and that it is being aided by Al-Qaeda (Both of which clearly violated the peace deal, yet Trump forged with the order anyway. Why?).
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While no Americans have been killed, we have lost tons of sophisticated weaponry. Plus, we certainly don't look like a superpower.
I doubt the weaponry was overly sophisticated.
Maybe we aren't a superpower like we used to be. The world is catching up.
Fathertime!
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Curious why you think Biden carry full responsibility on the withdrawal? After all, the
deal was 14 (17 Post-5/1 to 8/31 extension) months old and everyone knew, been
advised, or should've been aware that there will be US/Coalition troop number draw
down with a target date of May 1st.
They've been repeatedly told to leave. Not that they had to be told at all...
99.98% of the Americans in Afghanistan were paid by the US government or
by contracts with the US government. Biden is in charge and he should have
been more organized. Biden is rightfully blamed.
The left usually has good intentions, they need to be held accountable when
their good intentions are spoiled by their incompetence and by their actions.
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99.98% of the Americans in Afghanistan were paid by the US government or
by contracts with the US government.
Good. I'm glad you said that. All the more reason they should've left over the 14 months considering their employer had urged them, if not downright command, they need to leave.
The small number of 'American' civilians in-country, beyond the dual-passport holding Americans, are mostly 'hired' elite security force used to assist the military during the waning days of the withdrawal. Why they are there still is explained in the link I posted below.
Biden is in charge and he should have been more organized. Biden is rightfully blamed.
Trump left little, if not downright 'none', left to organize in a country besieged by civil war. His administration shunned the very government we 'financed' and created to negotiate peace in *their* country.
I'm one of Biden's fiercest critic, from the border crisis to his stupid COVID mandates and musings of total censorship. His stupid VP is even worst!! That viral video of her laughing when asked about the crisis in Afghanistan by a reporter is enough to really make you wonder how many idiotic Americans there are in the US to actually vote for these two.
But having witnessed the nation and the fake news media the past 5 years gives anyone a glimpse of how whacked our country and government had become. We desperately need a serious overhaul as a nation. Unlike seemingly what many of you and Americans do these days, my perspectives aren't driven by the daily fake news feed the media throws as bait and chum on the water.
Sure, in clear view, Biden is the one that fumbled the ball at the goal line. That's easy enough. But anyone who doesn't just digest the daily installment of fake news about this crisis would easily understand that Trump is as much at fault, if not downright at fault, of this fumbled situation. Trump, for whatever stupid reason he had, actually signed a memo - eventually an executive order - to completely withdraw all military personnel from Afghanistan, and other hot spots in the world, after the election result was finalized. He ordered total withdrawal from Afghanistan Christmas 2020!! The dude turned into an incredibly buffooned, vindictive lunatic! In his desperate attempt to stamp some notion of a legacy in his presidency, he resorted to an action nestled between maniacal - mercurial.
The left usually has good intentions, they need to be held accountable when
their good intentions are spoiled by their incompetence and by their actions.
I'm an American first before any of my political belief and conviction, much less affiliation. Both Republican and Democrat president had their filthy hands in this war and country.
If you really want to pin the fault of how and why situations like we have in Afghanistan today, look no further than you, me and all of us. All in our silly partisan hacking ways do we constantly sink in the mess we perpetually create for ourselves. WE are the ones that put lunatics, all of them, in power to play the games they do in our world today.
I would urge to read this:
http://www.axios.com/off-the-rails-trump-military-withdraw-afghanistan-5717012a-d55d-4819-a79f-805d5eb3c6e2.html (http://www.axios.com/off-the-rails-trump-military-withdraw-afghanistan-5717012a-d55d-4819-a79f-805d5eb3c6e2.html)
It details many of the interaction between Trump's administration, the Pentagon, and our military complex generals. From Mattis to Milley.
It also exposed the myth that Trump told the Talibans that if they *harmed any Americans that they will be hit so hard like they've never been hit before*. That never happened.
The fault in all of this, and everything that's currently happening to us, is the silliness Americans mired themselves with misguided, entitled tribalism that further divides our nation farther apart every gawd-damned day!
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Gator,
big bang, but not a lot of bang for the buck with MOAB's, about half the cost of a B61 nuke@15million or so.
Last one killed only 34 or so?
To people who don't know how to read and don't use toilet paper
it's very impressive and very scary. These are people who don't
have a single pilot in their armed forces, they believe driving with
the lights off saves gas. They are not very sophisticated.
With thugs, being scary is an effective deterrent
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Good. I'm glad you said that. All the more reason they should've left over the 14 months considering their employer had urged them, if not downright command, they need to leave.
They are paid by their employer to be there. Their employers didn't tell them to leave. If the government is paying contractors to supply personnel, they will continue to do so. Nobody would've stayed if they knew Biden was going to pull out the way he did. Our European friends understand the danger Biden put their citizens in. This isn't all about American citizens. Biden is responsible for all lives. Some are gone today due to an explosion at the airport. At least 5 American soldiers injured. Maybe some died. They are trying to sort out the mess right now.
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Whatever the way of our leaving Afghanistan, it looks like long term they were/are screwed. Afghanistan is essentially bankrupt with little likely in the way of future revenue other than from opium production:
http://inews.co.uk/news/world/afghanistan-economy-crisis-taliban-state-kabul-lights-out-1168001
Apart from the cost to the west of basing UK forces in the country they would have likely have had to foot the bill of Afghanistan avoiding economic collapse. I doubt the west could afford either as all of our economies are near the brink with having dealt with the virus. The lights are about to go out in Afghanistan probably just after we leave on the 31st they'll pull the plug. That'll leave the Taliban & Afghans at large back in medieval times. The Taliban like that so they probably won't be too bothered but other Afghans may feel it. On top of that extremely few Afghans will have access to the Coronavirus vaccine so they will be left to just take whatever comes with that one. Essentially the future doesn't look very bright for them. Probably the first nation to crack as a result of the virus. Matters could get increasingly uncivilised out there I reckon.
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They are paid by their employer to be there. Their employers didn't tell them to leave. If the government is paying contractors to supply personnel, they will continue to do so.
BillyB, then what's the uproar about 'leaving Americans behind' that you've been up in arms for? BTW - The employer cited in my response to Bill's post is the US government, and they repeatedly told them to leave ASAP.
Nobody would've stayed if they knew Biden was going to pull out the way he did. Our European friends understand the danger Biden put their citizens in. This isn't all about American citizens. Biden is responsible for all lives. Some are gone today due to an explosion at the airport. At least 5 American soldiers injured. Maybe some died. They are trying to sort out the mess right now.
I really do believe your displayed horrid partisanship have blinded you in more than a few details and fact surrounding this crisis. I will urge you to stop ingesting daily fake news for a bit and give yourself some time to catch-up and understand 'how & what and whodunnits' that got us to where we are today. So many holes in your perception.
Bottom line to you, and everyone else...in my lifetime, I have never known, or witness, where a defeated nation gets to dictate how pretty they'd like to withdraw and end the war. Now is the *best worse time* to do so for us, or we'll be mired in this forever war all over again.
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We desperately need a serious overhaul as a nation.
I have to agree. Overall, we have little to be arrogant about nowadays. Work ethic (Generally speaking) is rather bad, and that is the crux of how a nation can thrive. Another way of course is to use the military to dominate other nations and capture easy resources, those days appear to be ending though...so back to the way it probably should be where hard or smart work is what brings prosperity.
You know my solution! Bring in more immigrants! :D
Fathertime!
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I doubt the weaponry was overly sophisticated.
How many times are you going to post that? What was left behind--- bows and arrows ...slingshots and spears?
http://nypost.com/2021/08/20/us-left-billions-in-weapons-in-afghanistan-with-black-hawks-in-talibans-hands/
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Dozens of civilians, 12 U.S. troops killed in Kabul airport attack
Aug 26 (Reuters) - Islamic State struck the crowded gates of Kabul airport in a suicide bomb attack on Thursday, killing scores of civilians and 12 U.S. troops, and throwing into mayhem the airlift of tens of thousands of Afghans desperate to flee.
Kabul health officials were quoted as saying 60 civilians were killed. Video shot by Afghan journalists showed dozens of bodies strewn around a canal on the edge of the airport. At least two blasts rocked the area, witnesses said.
Islamic State said one of its suicide bombers targeted "translators and collaborators with the American army". U.S. officials also blamed the group. read more (http://www.reuters.com/world/islamic-state-claims-responsibility-kabul-airport-attack-2021-08-26/)
http://www.reuters.com/world/asia-pacific/western-nations-race-complete-afghan-evacuation-deadline-looms-2021-08-25/
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How many times are you going to post that? What was left behind--- bows and arrows ...slingshots and spears?
http://nypost.com/2021/08/20/us-left-billions-in-weapons-in-afghanistan-with-black-hawks-in-talibans-hands/
Depends on how many times I think it is necessary.
Show me evidence of all the nuclear bombs we left behind
Fathertime!
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Dozens of civilians, 12 U.S. troops killed in Kabul airport attack
What a tragedy! More stories of young men paying the ultimate price in defending Americans.
What a cowardly act! A withdrawal is very vulnerable to attack, especially a poorly planned withdrawal. We are doing exactly what they wanted, namely leaving their country; yet, they take potshots as we exit....... for the sole purpose of killing.
The suicide attacks probably can be traced to the release of 4,800 ISIS and AQ prisoners when we abandoned the Bagram airfield. We did not anticipate our withdrawal would: 1) be chaotic, 2) depend upon the Taliban for security, and 3) be so slow that the released prisoners had time to organize and return to the "battlefield."
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Depends on how many times I think it is necessary.
Show me evidence of all the nuclear bombs we left behind
Fathertime!
Necessary for what? You have already made your point the first time you posted it. More than that appears proselytizing. Proselytizing defeats discourse and encourages hostile responses. That is not welcome here.
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More stories of young men paying the ultimate price in defending Americans.
Here's one--- I will go ahead and post though it's been about 13 years....His mom is my oldest cousin [mother's side] His dad is a Univ of Nebr graduate from Guatemala. He had a wife and 2 daughters...a brother and 2 sisters. We called him Berto [for Roberto] when he was a kid.
(http://s3.amazonaws.com/static.militarytimes.com/thefallen/yllescas_robert2_j_lg.jpg)
An IED in Afghanistan did him in. He was laid up at Bethesda. In his mercy, the Lord took him.
http://thefallen.militarytimes.com/army-capt-robert-j-yllescas/3849520
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But anyone who doesn't just digest the daily installment of fake news about this crisis would easily understand that Trump is as much at fault, if not downright at fault, of this fumbled situation.
You seem to have as much a problem with Trump as with Biden. Indeed, Trump started the ball rolling, the ball being "ending an endless war." However, is that not the proper decision? American sentiment says yes. Who knows how Trump would have exceuted his plan to withdraw from Afghanistan. I have trouble believing it would have been this chaotic and deadly.
This GQ statement caught my eye:
It also exposed the myth that Trump told the Talibans that if they *harmed any Americans that they will be hit so hard like they've never been hit before*. That never happened.
Trump and his negotiators say he spoke strongly when negotiating with the Taliban. Only you and the Taliban spokesman say otherwise.
You are correct that Trump had trouble working with the DOD and generals. Not just Mattis and Milley but Esper too. That is because Trump wanted to end all of America's little wars. I applaud Trump for destroying ISIS, then I criticize him for how he next abandoned the Kurds who did the dirty fighting against ISIS. Yet, with regard to Afghanistan I am not putting Trump in the same boat as Biden.
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Here's one--- I will go ahead and post though it's been about 13 years....His mom is my oldest cousin [mother's side] His dad is a Univ of Nebr graduate from Guatemala. He had a wife and 2 daughters...a brother and 2 sisters. We called him Berto [for Roberto] when he was a kid.
(http://s3.amazonaws.com/static.militarytimes.com/thefallen/yllescas_robert2_j_lg.jpg)
An IED in Afghanistan did him in. He was laid up at Bethesda. In his mercy, the Lord took him.
http://thefallen.militarytimes.com/army-capt-robert-j-yllescas/3849520
It hits the heart when you personally knew the fallen.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JCgLCXIVq3M
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Dozens of civilians, 12 U.S. troops killed in Kabul airport attack
I just read an article that it's 60 dead with 13 being American troops. The death toll continues to climb since some in the hospital may not make it.
In the last year and a half, no American troops were killed. Trump was winding things down safely. For awhile Biden kept the same program. A month ago Taliban goes to China. Two weeks ago Biden suddenly pulls troops out before civilians and all hell breaks loose. China is going to do business with Afghanistan which has the largest lithium reserves in the world. China will control green energy and we'll pay for it.
No advisor would recommend pulling out of Afghanistan in the worst possible way. Biden ignored all his advisors. What he did was on purpose. Biden even gave the Taliban a list of the Americans we want out of there. Does he trust them or did he do it on purpose? The Taliban could pass the list to assassins that will get the high value targets. We had intelligence that said attacks on Americans were immanent. That is why the State Dept. told Americans to not come to the airport. Why were so many of our troops exposed to this danger on the outside of the airport?
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You seem to have as much a problem with Trump as with Biden. Indeed, Trump started the ball rolling, the ball being "ending an endless war." However, is that not the proper decision? American sentiment says yes.
Of course, IMO, ending this war IS the right thing to do. Neither you or I, Trump AND Biden had wavered with that sentiment.
Who knows how Trump would have exceuted his plan to withdraw from Afghanistan. I have trouble believing it would have been this chaotic and deadly.
That’s easy. He already did just that in Syria with the Kurds. Not only that, he wanted to pull ALL of the US troops out of Afghanistan back in December! Imagine what the consequences of that would’ve been knowing what we see today.
Leaving 2,500 is just as bad. You already have 6,000 troops just to manage KIA’ interior today and there’s still chaos as it is. How the heck can you manage Bagram airfield base, protect the embassy and KIA with 2,500 soldiers seeing what you’re looking at today?
This GQ statement caught my eye:
Trump and his negotiators say he spoke strongly when negotiating with the Taliban. Only you and the Taliban spokesman say otherwise.
Untrue. You can add Zalmay Khalilzad, Lisa Curtis to the list. The Talibans blatantly broke the Doha agreement even before Biden took office, and Trump did nothing. Zip. That doesn’t paint the man you seem to suggest he is.
You are correct that Trump had trouble working with the DOD and generals. Not just Mattis and Milley but Esper too. That is because Trump wanted to end all of America's little wars. I applaud Trump for destroying ISIS, then I criticize him for how he next abandoned the Kurds who did the dirty fighting against ISIS.
Amen. I rest my case.
Yet, with regard to Afghanistan I am not putting Trump in the same boat as Biden.
Fair enough. I do. Based on what I had already provided, I hold Trump equally responsible, if not even more so.
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Necessary for what? You have already made your point the first time you posted it.
I have seen 'sensitive weapons' twice here that I can remember, and both times I've stated I don't think so. There is little chance of changing the posters opinion on the matter, although leaving the statement untouched would allow what I believe to be an unproven statement remain unchallenged. A lie (In this case, unproven statement) going unchallenged shouldn't elicit hostile responses, but I recognize it might.
Fathertime!
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You are correct that Trump had trouble working with the DOD and generals. Not just Mattis and Milley but Esper too. That is because Trump wanted to end all of America's little wars. I applaud Trump for destroying ISIS, then I criticize him for how he next abandoned the Kurds who did the dirty fighting against ISIS. Yet, with regard to Afghanistan I am not putting Trump in the same boat as Biden.
Look at much of Trump's presidency...rather chaotic. Who knows how our departure in Afghanistan would have went under trump, but I can see type of thing happening regardless of who was president. Trump has the priviledge of watching Biden take the hits because he is currently in office. Trump could have chosen to support biden, as biden has followed through with trump's earlier moves in Afghanistan.
Fathertime!
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That’s easy. He already did just that in Syria with the Kurds.
Yes, Kurds, not American troops. Anyway, the generals lied to Trump and actually had many more deployed than what they told Trump.
I believe you are missing an important part of the story here is how the US military has lied to Presidents over the decades. For sure they lied to Obama, Trump and Biden about how well the dual missions of building an Afghan Army and winning the hearts and minds of the Afghani were progressing.
Another part of the story is how we have continued to support Pakistan even though their ISI has been supporting and funding the Taliban forever. And while ISI is funding the Taliban, the US has been Pakistan's top donor.
Not only that, he wanted to pull ALL of the US troops out of Afghanistan back in December! Imagine what the consequences of that would’ve been knowing what we see today.
I thought the target was May, which makes sense as this is the end of the winter season and the start of Taliban's fighting season. May thru August gave the Taliban time to mount its offensive, leading to the collapse of the Sfghan army.
Leaving 2,500 is just as bad. You already have 6,000 troops just to manage KIA’ interior today and there’s still chaos as it is. How the heck can you manage Bagram airfield base, protect the embassy and KIA with 2,500 soldiers seeing what you’re looking at today?
Consider either Bagram or KIA. Bagram could be defended with much fewer troops than KIA. The terrain is open and not part of urban congestion. Crowd control would have been easier.
Untrue. You can add Zalmay Khalilzad, Lisa Curtis to the list. The Talibans blatantly broke the Doha agreement even before Biden took office, and Trump did nothing. Zip. That doesn’t paint the man you seem to suggest he is.
I will await the Congressional oversight hearing for better information. Yet given politics on the Hill, I will not hold my breath.
I hold Trump equally responsible, if not even more so.
This chaos was created not by Trump's decision to negotiate withdrawal with the Taliban, but by Biden's execution of the withdrawal. To be honest, I believe it a waste for Trump to have talked with the Taliban. They are religious fanatics who can not be trusted. But here we are, depending upon Taliban for security.
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Maybe Biden should have studied the Soviet withdrawal from Afghanistan. The Soviets intervention in Afghanistan lasted 9 years (not 20) yet their withdrawal still occurred over 8 months even with a shared border.
Based on troop numbers one could say the US has been withdrawing for 10 years.
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A mere 5% of those evacuated from Afghanistan through the Kabul Airport are American citizens, raising questions about the nature of the mass airlifts from the country following its capitulation to the Taliban.
http://patriotsignal.com/shock-bidens-afghanistan-evacuation-leaked-its-bad/
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It hits the heart when you personally knew the fallen.
A movie was filmed about that Afghani incident [I haven't seen it though]--- The Outpost.
Milo Gibson [son of Mel Gibson] portrays my cousin....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Outpost_(2020_film)
Captain Rob [he was called] fathered two girls. One here graduated from high school just before that movie was released---
http://www.cnn.com/2019/08/20/us/nebraska-senior-photos-father-afghanistan-trnd/index.html
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Matters could get increasingly uncivilised out there I reckon.
Next stop for the Taliban could be Pakistan. Pakistan has nuclear weapons [tell that one to fathertime] Or maybe Iraq first....maybe(http://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/Smileys/DarkB/undecided.gif)
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Maria Zack who discovered Italy and MI6's role in our elections contacted Doug Billings(some say he's the next Rush Limbaugh) a few hours before the bombing to say a bombing at the airport is going to happen. If she knew it based off her intel sources, our government knew it. There's no excuse to put troops out in harms way.
Edward Snowden gave an interview in Russia a couple of years ago. He said although our phones are off, it's constantly recording video and sound. NSA has a folder of everybody on earth that has certain phones. Super computers can pick up language and send it to human ears. For example, if you say or write you want to assassinate a certain person, the computer will send your words to human ears. It's why we can catch terrorists easily. We knew a terrorist bombing was imminent yet those in charge put our troops out there anyway.
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Other than to (again) inject your election mis and disinformation, how is your post above germane to this topic BillyB? For days warnings were given that current intel indicates an attack was possible and even imminent.
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Stepping back a bit and just looking at the sheer numbers of those evacuated, 100 thousand plus thus far, I'd say quite an achievement. American citizens and military/contractor personnel are only a small portion of that number. With a few days to go, what are we looking at, 130 thousand, maybe more? Where do we draw the line? Obviously, it will not be possible to get everyone out that may want to get out for whatever reason. Much will depend on the Taliban upholding their end of any agreements made. Thus far, I see no great effort on the part of the Taliban to overtly and forcefully hinder the evacuation, but they have to draw the line as well.
As far as the ISIS bombing, killing many trying to enter the airport, along with those serving our military, such cowardly actions may well be construed to try and break even the minimal US - Taliban relations/communications that exist. ISIS can fight the Taliban, they can fight the US, but would have a much harder time fighting both.
I'm not that well-informed, even ignorant of many aspects and relationships involved, but do see the possibility of constructive dialogue and opportunities. Let's say I hope for the best, instead of dwelling on the worst that could happen.
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Next stop for the Taliban could be Pakistan. Pakistan has nuclear weapons [tell that one to fathertime] Or maybe Iraq first....maybe(http://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/Smileys/DarkB/undecided.gif)
Thanks for the mention! This type of fear mongering can keep us in foreign wars and occupying nations forever. I don't think the natives appreciate us being there very much, and I see it as a driving force for them to weaponize themselves as best they can. In the case of Afghanistan, the war drained US coffers to the tune of trillions. Not to mention wasted manpower. Imagine all the good the young men/women could have been doing inside of the US border.
Fathertime!
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After claiming that they didn't know how many Americans are in
Afghanistan, Team Biden gave the Taliban a list of names of all
Americans in Afghanistan
From Politico
U.S. officials provided Taliban with names of Americans
The decision to provide specific names to the Taliban, which has a history of brutally murdering Afghans who collaborated with the U.S. and other coalition forces during the conflict, has angered lawmakers and military officials.
http://www.politico.com/news/2021/08/26/us-officials-provided-taliban-with-names-of-americans-afghan-allies-to-evacuate-506957
From CNN
The latest on the Kabul airport attack
Thirteen US service members were killed and 18 were injured in an attack at Kabul's airport
More than 90 Afghans are dead and at least 150 wounded
http://www.cnn.com/world/live-news/afghanistan-kabul-taliban-us-news-08-27-21/h_be8fa0445684f14f51d381b29151172b
From NPR
Gen. Jim Jones, who served as national security adviser under President Barack Obama.
"Jones says this withdrawal seems to have taken place in reverse."
"When you do these kinds of things, however big or however small they are, the first thing
you do is you get the civilians and families out, then you get the U.S. government personnel
out if that's required. And then the last people to leave is generally the military who are
providing the security for the orderly evacuation," Jones said. "It appears to me that we
did this exactly backwards and I don't know why."
"Another veteran of the Obama administration, Leon Panetta, former director of the CIA and
secretary of defense, has compared the withdrawal to the "Bay of Pigs" — the botched
1961 invasion of Cuba under President John F. Kennedy."
http://www.npr.org/2021/08/23/1029851226/what-the-exit-from-afghanistan-tells-us-about-how-biden-sees-the-world
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Next stop for the Taliban could be Pakistan. Pakistan has nuclear weapons [tell that one to fathertime] Or maybe Iraq first....maybe(http://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/Smileys/DarkB/undecided.gif)
Much of Taliban came from Pakistan.
The Pakistan ISI has long supported the Taliban. Maybe Pakistan does this so the Taliban focuses on Afghanistan, and not Pakistan.
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I'm not that well-informed, even ignorant of many aspects and relationships involved, but do see the possibility of constructive dialogue and opportunities. Let's say I hope for the best, instead of dwelling on the worst that could happen.
Such a mentality prompted our policy makers to stay in Afghanistan for 20 years after our military working with warlords evicted al qaeda.
"Constructive dialogue" and "religious fanaticism" are mutually exclusive when making long term policies.
The US is getting out of Afghanistan, and that is the correct decision. Leave the Middle East alone. Let them focus on killing each other as they have done for a thousand years. We played a heavy hand only because we needed the oil. We do not need the oil.
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Stepping back a bit and just looking at the sheer numbers of those evacuated, 100 thousand plus thus far, I'd say quite an achievement. American citizens and military/contractor personnel are only a small portion of that number. With a few days to go, what are we looking at, 130 thousand, maybe more? Where do we draw the line?
These numbers speak volumes. Even though many more than 100,000 Afghani would get on a plane and relocate to the West, the total number is still insignificant compared to the national population of 40 million.
LITMUS TEST: there are no news videos of multitudes of Afghani refugees escaping their country and crossing into the sanctuary of Iran and the surrounding "Stans."
In summary, the Afghani people are accepting the Taliban. Maybe it is in their hearts or maybe it is the lesser of two evils. Whatever the reason, the religious ideology embraced by the Taliban prevailed over the ways of a Western looking life. And it always will for a long time to come. The Western trained and organized Afghan national army chose not to stand and fight raiders of a kindred spirit.
Let's get out and lick our wounds. Maybe in the future drop some bombs and fire some missiles on enemies of our homeland.
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Such a mentality prompted our policy makers to stay in Afghanistan for 20 years after our military working with warlords evicted al qaeda.
IIRC CIA etc? Seems more enemies than friends were made after all.
"Constructive dialogue" and "religious fanaticism" are mutually exclusive when making long term policies.
Generally, I have no qualms with how a country is run or what religion practiced - as long as folks are free to travel outside their borders, i.e. Soviet Union East Germany. I've heard the Taliban will not restrict travels, but we'll have to see how that works out some time down the road.
The US is getting out of Afghanistan, and that is the correct decision. Leave the Middle East alone. Let them focus on killing each other as they have done for a thousand years. We played a heavy hand only because we needed the oil. We do not need the oil.
Yes, there were always ulterior motives, it seems. Invading Iraq was supposed to cost between 20-50 Billion and be reimbursed by oil sales, aside from feeding the military manufacturing and DOD contracting sectors.
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In summary, the Afghani people are accepting the Taliban. Maybe it is in their hearts or maybe it is the lesser of two evils. Whatever the reason, the religious ideology embraced by the Taliban prevailed over the ways of a Western looking life. And it always will for a long time to come. The Western trained and organized Afghan national army chose not to stand and fight raiders of a kindred spirit.
Let's get out and lick our wounds. Maybe in the future drop some bombs and fire some missiles on enemies of our homeland.
Can't fault your logic on this Gator. The NYT commentary by an Afghan general Trenchcoat posted a bit back was very interesting. If you have problems accessing it, I'd be happy to share a link with you.
http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=25305.msg558635#msg558635
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With a few days to go, what are we looking at, 130 thousand, maybe more? Where do we draw the line?
100% of American's was always the line.
We can leave the Afghani's there, or leave them in a Muslim country. They are loyal
only while getting paid. We could be inviting jihad into the USA. Those 100K Afghani's
will be bringing in every relative for generations. The USA is trying to become the worst
part of Europe every time a Democrat is in office.
I'd say quite an achievement.
Of course you would. You have been saying whatever Team Biden says.
Much will depend on the Taliban upholding their end of any agreements made.
Thus far, I see no great effort on the part of the Taliban to overtly and forcefully
hinder the evacuation, but they have to draw the line as well.
Then you are in denial, the Afghani's built a ring around the airport so that
they could bottleneck the process and to shake down anybody for bribes.
How could you pretend that it's any other thing?
The Taliban won't hold their end on ANY agreements made. They only do
so when they are in fear or when money is to be made.
Let's say I hope for the best, instead of dwelling on the worst that could happen.
It's probably best for everyone to keep positive.
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Look at much of Trump's presidency...rather chaotic.
Chaotic because Trump represented someone who not only challenged the Washington status quo, he didn't care who he bulldozed out of the way to get his agenda done. I listened to Tulsi Gabbarb's interview not too long ago where she admitted how so many of the house Democrats were urging her to not sign the criminal reform law Trump administration had been working for the simple reason they (Dems) didn't want Trump to achieved anything during his presidency. Tulsi was the moderate Democrat that was once a presidential candidate, which the DNC considered hostile to their cause and labeled her, via Hillary, a Russian agent. These idiots (Dems) are suppose to be our public servants.
If there was 'chaos' during Trump's presidency, it mostly wasn't because of Trump.
Who knows how our departure in Afghanistan would have went under trump, but I can see type of thing happening regardless of who was president.
I agree. Biden was left holding the bag from the actions of the 3 presidents before him. While I strongly support Trump's 'America First' initiative to get us out of all these silly wars, his vindictive actions post-election soured my opinion of him as a POTUS.
Trump has the priviledge of watching Biden take the hits because he is currently in office. Trump could have chosen to support biden, as biden has followed through with trump's earlier moves in Afghanistan.
Fathertime!
Trump's ego couldn't be tempered knowing Biden is about to accomplish what he strived so hard to do but couldn't. In the end, like Bush and Obama before him, he didn't have the political cojones to face the scrutiny of all possible consequences of a withdrawal, not least of which, face the political ire of own military complex.
Trump, unfortunately, turned into a caricature of someone so distraught of losing the opportunity to finish what he started and aimed to do, so he instead is now trumpeting silly remarks about the current crisis. Trump should've tried to make the transfer of power chapter better for the benefit of the country, and worked with the Biden administration regarding Afghanistan. Instead, he shunned the transfer and tried to sabotage an incoming administration by attempting to withdraw all US troops back home before the inauguration. All this accomplished was endanger more lives as we're witnessing today. For what?
Now he's reduced to a silly guy screaming for anyone silly enough to listen how Biden is importing thousands of terrorists which he knows full well he has more than a huge part of the reason why in more ways than one, why we are where we are today.
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For days warnings were given that current intel indicates an attack was possible and even imminent.
Then why were so many of our troops huddled together and put in harms way? Over a dozen killed and many dozens were hospitalized? What good is intel if the warnings are ignored on purpose?
After Biden's speech he said "They gave me a list here. The first person I was instructed to call on was Kelly O'Donnell from NBC". 'They' is in control of Biden and the whole Q & A session without teleprompter was scripted so he wouldn't look so bad.
Veterans group said when Biden quickly pulled the troops, he had them leave behind billions of equipment, including drones and night vision goggles. It seems we did this on purpose to equip the Taliban. Our night vision technology will be sold to China and Russia. This is a BIG deal. For those that were in the military, when doing exercises, you know if someone lost a weapon or night vision goggles in training, nobody goes home until they're found. For those in high speed units, you know we train to fight the enemy at night because we could see better than them. That is a huge advantage. With night vision goggles in Russia's and China's hands, they will become our equals when it comes to vision at night. More of our soldiers will die in the future because certain technology will be transferred into our advisaries hands.
The latest night vision goggles augments reality. Much much better than the ones I used. Video in link below.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2021/05/24/army-night-vision-goggles/
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Veterans group also said we left behind biometric devices which contain all the fingerprints and eye scans of everybody who partnered with America for the last 20 years in Afghanistan. Guess what the Taliban will use those devices for? Ask yourself why we rushed out of there leaving that kind of stuff behind? What kind of people would do such a thing to risk other people's lives, especially the ones that helped us fight the terrorists?
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Look at much of Trump's presidency...rather chaotic. Who knows how our departure in Afghanistan would have went under trump ...
We're back on the Doctrines threads again? Let it go please!!!
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Veterans group also said we left behind biometric devices which contain all the fingerprints and eye scans of everybody who partnered with America for the last 20 years in Afghanistan. Guess what the Taliban will use those devices for? Ask yourself why we rushed out of there leaving that kind of stuff behind? What kind of people would do such a thing to risk other people's lives, especially the ones that helped us fight the terrorists?
What you should be asking are these:
1. Why did we even invaded the country in the first place if our prime objective was to get OBL and oust Al Qaeda out of Afghanistan as a result of 911, yet they've been out there fighting alongside the Taliban - not least of which includes ISIS-K - which is counter to the tenet of Trump's peace deal made with the Taliban.
2. The other tenet broken was the Talibans and the Afghan government were conditioned to broker a peace deal, yet the Taliban initiated violence against the Afghan forces instead.
On both occasions, Trump did nothing to enforce the negotiated peace deal. Those veterans should've known that, right?
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We're back on the Doctrines threads again? Let it go please!!!
Person posted he thought it would go better under Trump. My comment was referencing his trump comment.
Fathertime!
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Veterans group also said we left behind biometric devices which contain all the fingerprints and eye scans of everybody who partnered with America for the last 20 years in Afghanistan.
1. The devices don't have enough storage to do what the group claims. According to the manual it has enough storage for approximately 22000 profiles, likely less with pictures. http://info.publicintelligence.net/HIIDE4.02.pdf
2. The device itself is nothing secret. They are out of stock though at this time. Maybe the Taliban will sell 'em cheaper than 500 bucks.
http://www.rhinotradellc.com/shop/securimetrics-l-1-identity-solutions-hiide-series-4-handheld-identity-detection/
3. We don't know how they were used. There are several scenarios. To identify bad guys, where bad guys are stored on the device, to collect good guys and their data is only uploaded, whether folks destroyed the device database per the manual, whether the devices can be remotely wiped. The local database would certainly be encrypted to military standards.
4. Logins are required for the devices, or iris scans of the authorized user.
5. Devices and logins can easily be disabled on the server side. There may be more admin capabilities when devices connect that are not published.
6. Device loss and compromise is certainly a consideration that was taken into account when DOD purchased the devices. I suspect quite a few of them have been lost in the past.
We'll just have to wait until further information is known, but is premature to cry wolf.
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A list of American military equipment left in Afghanistan:
2,000 Armored Vehicles Including Humvees and MRAPs
75,989 Total Vehicles: FMTV, M35, Ford Rangers, Ford F350, Ford Vans, Toyota Pickups, Armored Security Vehicles etc.
45 UH-60 Blackhawk Helicopters
50 MD530G Scout Attack Helicopters
ScanEagle Military Drones
30 Military Version Cessnas
4 C-130s
29 Brazilian made A-29 Super Tucano Ground Attack Aircraft
Heavy Equipment, Including Bull Dozers, Backhoes, Dump Trucks, Excavators
__________________________________________________________________________ __
61,000 M203 Rounds
20,040 Grenades
Howitzers
Mortars +1,000’s of Rounds
162,000 pieces of Encrypted Military Communications Gear
16,000+ Night Vision Goggles
Newest Technology Night Vision Scopes
Thermal Scopes and Thermal Mono Googles
10,000 2.75 inch Air to Ground Rockets
Reconnaissance Equipment (ISR)
Laser Aiming Units
Explosives Ordnance C-4, Semtex, Detonators, Shaped Charges, Thermite, Incendiaries, AP/API/APIT
2,520 Bombs
Administration Encrypted Cell Phones and Laptops ALL operational
Pallets with Millions of Dollars in US Currency
Millions of Rounds of Ammunition including but not limited to 20,150,600 rounds of 7.62mm, 9,000,000 rounds of 50.caliber
Large Stockpile of Plate Carriers and Body Armor
US Military HIIDE, for Handheld Interagency Identity Detection Equipment Biometrics
http://www.ammoland.com/2021/08/full-list-of-american-weapons-left-afghanistan/
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A list of American military equipment left in Afghanistan:
2,000 Armored Vehicles Including Humvees and MRAPs
75,989 Total Vehicles: FMTV, M35, Ford Rangers, Ford F350, Ford Vans, Toyota Pickups, Armored Security Vehicles etc.
45 UH-60 Blackhawk Helicopters
50 MD530G Scout Attack Helicopters
ScanEagle Military Drones
30 Military Version Cessnas
4 C-130s
29 Brazilian made A-29 Super Tucano Ground Attack Aircraft
Heavy Equipment, Including Bull Dozers, Backhoes, Dump Trucks, Excavators
__________________________________________________________________________ __
61,000 M203 Rounds
20,040 Grenades
Howitzers
Mortars +1,000’s of Rounds
162,000 pieces of Encrypted Military Communications Gear
16,000+ Night Vision Goggles
Newest Technology Night Vision Scopes
Thermal Scopes and Thermal Mono Googles
10,000 2.75 inch Air to Ground Rockets
Reconnaissance Equipment (ISR)
Laser Aiming Units
Explosives Ordnance C-4, Semtex, Detonators, Shaped Charges, Thermite, Incendiaries, AP/API/APIT
2,520 Bombs
Administration Encrypted Cell Phones and Laptops ALL operational
Pallets with Millions of Dollars in US Currency
Millions of Rounds of Ammunition including but not limited to 20,150,600 rounds of 7.62mm, 9,000,000 rounds of 50.caliber
Large Stockpile of Plate Carriers and Body Armor
US Military HIIDE, for Handheld Interagency Identity Detection Equipment Biometrics
http://www.ammoland.com/2021/08/full-list-of-american-weapons-left-afghanistan/
A relevant question is what condition are these items like helicopters in? It would appear a decision was made that they weren’t worth the cost to drag them back.
Fathertime!
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With a few days to go, what are we looking at, 130 thousand, maybe more? Where do we draw the line?
More misdirection, nobody cares about how many people are evacuated.
The questions is this:
How many Americans do we leave behind? Where do we draw the line?
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Who knows how our departure in Afghanistan would have went under Trump.
Who cares how our departure would have been under George Washington? George
didn't f#ck it up Biden did. Trump didn't f#ck it up Biden did. At some point Biden
has to take the blame for things that Biden does.
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To be fair, Trump kind of did, as he negotiated the terms of withdrawal. Biden made a mistake in setting an arbitrary deadline.
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A list of American military equipment left in Afghanistan:
I ONLY care about our young American men and women. How many do we
leave behind? The ONLY correct answer ZERO.
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More misdirection, nobody cares about how many people are evacuated.
I posted my reflections, not replying to a post or directed at any poster. How you can feel I am misdirecting eludes me.
Bad hair day?
As for the numbers of Americans, I've seen 1500 kicked around, 500 of which are in contact with officials and desire to leave and 1000 more estimated. Of the thousand, I've seen reported that an undetermined number of these may not be US citizens.
I do hope that all USC's wanting to leave can do so, and am confident everyone is doing everything possible to make that happen.
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To be fair, Trump kind of did, as he negotiated the terms of withdrawal. Biden made a mistake in setting an arbitrary deadline.
Are you familiar with the Iranian nuke deal that Obama negotiated with Iran?
How about the climate accords in Paris?
Biden owns this not Trump.
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Are you familiar with the Iranian nuke deal that Obama negotiated with Iran?
How about the climate accords in Paris?
Misdirection?
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Who cares how our departure would have been under George Washington? George
didn't f#ck it up Biden did. Trump didn't f#ck it up Biden did. At some point Biden
has to take the blame for things that Biden does.
Another poster brought up how he felt it would have went smooth under trump. I don't think it would have went as smooth as he says it would have gone. There is no way to know now. Biden is taking a few hits on the issue of how it is getting done, but ultimately we will be out of Afghanistan so he has done what he needed to do.
Fathertime!
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On both occasions, Trump did nothing to enforce the negotiated peace deal. Those veterans should've known that, right?
Trump gave an interview. He said he removed troops out of Afghanistan reducing the numbers to 2500. He bombed the Taliban if they were violating the peace deal and no American troops were killed in the last 20 months. He called the Taliban leader and told him he will send troops to kill him if they violate the deal. Being tough with the Taliban pacified them. Biden died everything possible to screw things up, ruin America's reputation, and hand things over to China and the Taliban, including making the Taliban one of the most powerful armies on earth. China won't have to fund their military for awhile. Biden said he accepts responsibility in yesterdays speech but said Trump's May 1st pullout didn't work insisting Trump get the blame. Who was making the decisions from Jan 20th to May 1st?
1. The devices don't have enough storage to do what the group claims. According to the manual it has enough storage for approximately 22000 profiles, likely less with pictures. http://info.publicintelligence.net/HIIDE4.02.pdf (http://info.publicintelligence.net/HIIDE4.02.pdf)
The veterans group did not claim the Taliban got one device. The Taliban acquired devices(plural) of every person that ever helped us over there.
We'll just have to wait until further information is known, but is premature to cry wolf.
Easy to say since you're not trapped in Afghanistan with your biometrics stored in those devices. Those who try to change their names and appearance will eventually be discovered and tortured if not killed.
Today, Pentagon spokesman answering reporters questions admitting to thousands of ISIS were released from American military base prisons by the Taliban. So not only did we turn over lethal military equipment, we left them terrorist prisoners to be released. You know more terrorist acts besides the one yesterday will happen to Americans. Americans are sure to die and the seeds of a future war have been planted. ISIS and the Taliban will only grow from here on out.
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I posted my reflections, not replying to a post or directed at any poster. How you can feel I am misdirecting eludes me.
Day after day you present the lefty talking point. First was your either or fallacy.
All Psaki will talk about is how many have been evacuated and break it down by
the day, the hour etc. It's a Lefty talking point. Nobody on the left will say how
many will be left behind or how many is acceptable.
The number of NON-Americans evacuated is irrelevant to the number of Americans
left behind.
As for the numbers of Americans, I've seen 1500 kicked around, 500 of which are in
contact with officials and desire to leave and 1000 more estimated. Of the thousand,
I've seen reported that an undetermined number of these may not be US citizens.
I do hope that all wanting to leave can do so, and am confident everyone is doing
everything possible to make that happen.
I am sure now that they screwed it up, that Team Biden would prefer to get all the
Americans safely home. HOWEVER, he screwed it up. Team Biden is responsible for
the chaos.
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Misdirection?
Biden is not obligated to Trump's deals any more than Trump was obligated to
follow through with Obama's idiotic deals. The comparison fits
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Biden owns this not Trump.
http://www.state.gov/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/Agreement-For-Bringing-Peace-to-Afghanistan-02.29.20.pdf
I assume you have read the terms and conditions that were agreed upon?
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including making the Taliban one of the most powerful armies on earth.
Hahahahaha!
They aren't in the top 50.
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Biden is not obligated to Trump's deals any more than Trump was obligated to
follow through with Obama's idiotic deals. The comparison fits
The title reads:
Agreement for Bringing Peace to Afghanistan
between the Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan which is not recognized by the United States
as a state and is known as the Taliban and the United States of America
How do you think the Taliban would react if Biden announced he would renege on the agreement? They would as well, and things could be very, very different on the ground in Kabul. Not in a good way either.
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Person posted he thought it would go better under Trump. My comment was referencing his trump comment.
I know...tit for tat ad nauseum.
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A relevant question is what condition are these items like helicopters in?
They needed an oil change. Why are you so obtuse?
Where was Peppermint Patty? We need her expert outlook!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qY1QNtnvURo
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Day after day you present the lefty talking point. First was your either or fallacy.
All Psaki will talk about is how many have been evacuated and break it down by
the day, the hour etc. It's a Lefty talking point. Nobody on the left will say how
many will be left behind or how many is acceptable.
The number of NON-Americans evacuated is irrelevant to the number of Americans
left behind.
I am sure now that they screwed it up, that Team Biden would prefer to get all the
Americans safely home. HOWEVER, he screwed it up. Team Biden is responsible for
the chaos.
This appears to be straight partisanship. I wouldn't place everything on Biden. He has to play the hand he was dealt and it wasn't that good a hand. It appears overall things are moving along in the right direction. Rarely do plans work out perfectly, but he has to get it done, and he is.
Fathertime!
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This appears to be straight partisanship.
Lazy and without merit.
Name an example of what I've said about Biden's Afghanistan fiasco that hasn't
been said repeatedly by the ideological left, I won't hold my breath. I have posted
countless articles by NPR, CNN, Time, Newsweek, Politico and others that back up
what I've said. Along with quotes by elected Democrats.
I wouldn't place everything on Biden.
You wouldn't but most would.
He has to play the hand he was dealt and it wasn't that good a hand.
I agree he is almost always wrong and probably suffering from dementia. :devil:
You walked into that one
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Name an example of what I've said about Biden's Afghanistan fiasco that hasn't
been said repeatedly by the ideological left, I won't hold my breath. I have posted
countless articles by NPR, CNN, Time, Newsweek, Politico and others that back up
what I've said. Along with quotes by elected Democrats.
You are using sources that you claim are disreputable and also claim are always left wing. These are your sentiments. Now suddenly you are you acting as if they are preaching the truth and not trying to make money on the news.
Of course my own opinion is that the sources are reporting as they always do.
Fathertime!
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Trump gave an interview. He said he removed troops out of Afghanistan reducing the numbers to 2500. He bombed the Taliban if they were violating the peace deal and no American troops were killed in the last 20 months. He called the Taliban leader and told him he will send troops to kill him if they violate the deal. Being tough with the Taliban pacified them. Biden died everything possible to screw things up, ruin America's reputation, and hand things over to China and the Taliban, including making the Taliban one of the most powerful armies on earth. China won't have to fund their military for awhile. Biden said he accepts responsibility in yesterdays speech but said Trump's May 1st pullout didn't work insisting Trump get the blame. Who was making the decisions from Jan 20th to May 1st?
It would help your cause if you at least read, and understood, the conditions of the peace deal. Let me at least make it easier for you. here:
http://www.axios.com/trump-taliban-agreement-doha-biden-8dabe136-6dce-4e43-9289-98551bd47ed6.html (http://www.axios.com/trump-taliban-agreement-doha-biden-8dabe136-6dce-4e43-9289-98551bd47ed6.html)
Further, Trump made no threats that you spoke off, LMAO. Think about it. Why make idle verbal threats if you already *have* a peace deal with a clearly defined tenets. Trump wasn't even in attendance when the deal was made.
Taliban repeatedly violated that deal since its signing, and Trump didn't do anything! You may not like to read/hear that fact, but you still cannot change that reality.
Today, Pentagon spokesman answering reporters questions admitting to thousands of ISIS were released from American military base prisons by the Taliban. So not only did we turn over lethal military equipment, we left them terrorist prisoners to be released. You know more terrorist acts besides the one yesterday will happen to Americans. Americans are sure to die and the seeds of a future war have been planted. ISIS and the Taliban will only grow from here on out.
...and that's one of the reasons why those originally involved in drafting this silly peace deal want to distance themselves from it now. On the one hand, it was conditioned the deal hinges on the Taliban making sure that no terrorist/militant who wished harm against the US will find itself on Afghan soil - yet it forced the Afghan government to release prisoners that included ISIS and Al-Qaeda, who are now fighting alongside the Taliban. They also just killed 13 US soldier yesterday.
This is what Trump thought last April of Biden's plan for withdrawal:
http://www.axios.com/trump-praises-biden-afghanistan-withdrawal-5f4c2449-0725-40b7-b0c3-7892e6146344.html
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To be fair, Trump kind of did, as he negotiated the terms of withdrawal.
The withdrawal deal Trump negotaited was not perfect nor cemented in details.
Now pause.....take a breath.......and think about the many withdrawal decision variables that were under Biden's control since January.
And now you claim it is partially Trump's fault because Biden's hands were tied? Before claiming such, please consider the many Trump policies Biden has reversed since January. It's easy to count - just go to the following:
- 55 executive orders,
- 33 presidential memoranda,
- 99 proclamations,
- 20 notices
Biden made a mistake in setting an arbitrary deadline.
Deadline!? The deadline is one of Biden's smaller mistakes. Let me list the dumb and dumber Biden decisions:
Dumb - Evacuating the military before American citizens.
Dumber - Abandoning Bagram (if we evacuated from there, the 13 servicemen would still be alive, and more Afghani would have been evacuated, under better vetting).
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From 2Tall's post, Fathertime wrote this about Biden: "He has to play the hand he was dealt and it wasn't that good a hand."
I watched CNN coverage and this is exactly what Cuomo said (except Cuomo said cards not hand). So now we know the source of Fathertime's frequent mistakes.
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There are [as of today] some 10,000 comments on this link ...Find just one that supports the JB administration----
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uc8eoeURBXc
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How do you think the Taliban would react if Biden announced he would renege on the agreement? They would as well, and things could be very, very different on the ground in Kabul. Not in a good way either.
Biden was never going to renege. Biden was committed to withdrawal even more than Trump. And this zeal to withdraw perhaps explains some of his bad battlefield decisions.
Keep in mind that over 10 years ago, Biden opposed the surge to 110,000 troops authorized by Obama. That was perhaps the one time in history when Biden was correct. In retrospect, we can now see there should not have been a surge, and instead a withdrawal.
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From 2Tall's post, Fathertime wrote this about Biden: "He has to play the hand he was dealt and it wasn't that good a hand."
I watched CNN coverage and this is exactly what Cuomo said (except Cuomo said cards not hand). So now we know the source of Fathertime's frequent mistakes.
You know nothing actually. I didn't see (And still haven't seen) Cuomo's statement. If cuomo says what you say he did, he and I agree. So it was you that made one of your frequent mistakes.
Fathertime!
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Keep in mind that over 10 years ago, Biden opposed the surge to 110,000 troops authorized by Obama. That was perhaps the one time in history when Biden was correct. In retrospect, we can now see there should not have been a surge, and instead a withdrawal.
Biden is president, and you are not. He has access to much more information and top level people than you do. When you say he made a mistake, you are speaking from ignorance in comparison to Biden. Had you been in the same seat biden was in (Thankfully you aren't), you might have made the very same decisions he did. It is very easy to armchair quarterback in a partisan sort of way as several do here. Regardless, the decision is made, soon we will be out of afghanistan. To me, it all looks like partisanship on steroids.
Fathertime!
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The withdrawal deal Trump negotaited was not perfect nor cemented in details.
Not perfect, Gator?
Let’s see:
1. Trump had the Pakistani release Mullah Baradar from prison, who now is likely to rule Afghanistan.
2. Taliban Doha negotiators are ex-Gitmo prisoners with axes to grind against the Afghan government.
3. Trump negotiated a peace deal with militants the US doesn’t even recognize as a legitimate ruling body, and at the same time shun the actual ruling government of Afghanistan.
4. Trump promise to withdraw all US troops in a given period with a definite deadline.
5. Trump lifts all sanctions against the Talibans, including lifting the arms embargo.
6. It agrees to Taliban demands to have the Afghan government release 5,000 prisoners, which included Al Qaeda and ISIS fighters - plus - an additional 1,000 held up in Bagram airfield base.
7. Trump agrees to immediately cease military support of the Afghan force in Afghanistan if Talibans cease all violence against the US force.
While I will always support getting out of all these endless wars we keep getting mucked up in, but for someone who authored a silly book titled ‘Art Of The Deal’, the Doha Agreement was a rabid and total sellout if not a downright f@CK up. Even the very people he sent to negotiate this deal believed this was a fiasco.
http://time.com/5794643/trumps-disgraceful-peace-deal-taliban/?amp=true
Within days, if not hours, they inked this ‘peace deal’ Talibans began assassinating Afghan civilians.
Trump emboldened, armed, and reinforced the Taliban force at the same time stopped supporting the Afghan army.
Trump bears total responsibility of everything that unfolded in Afghanistan today. And since he guaranteed release of the 6,000 prisoners, which included ISIS militants held in Afghan jails, he is solely responsible for the ISIS suicide bomber attack that killed 13 US soldiers and 170 Afghans.
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Within days, if not hours, they inked this ‘peace deal’ Talibans began assassinating Afghan civilians.
Trump emboldened, armed, and reinforced the Taliban force at the same time stopped supporting the Afghan army.
Trump bears total responsibility of everything that unfolded in Afghanistan today. And since he guaranteed release of the 6,000 prisoners, which included ISIS militants held in Afghan jails, he is solely responsible for the ISIS suicide bomber attack that killed 13 US soldiers and 170 Afghans.
Assuming what you are saying is true, which it probably is, at the very minimum Trump should pipe down at this time. A bonus would have been if trump stood behind biden. Trump doesn't possess the ability to these sort of things though. Instead he will weakly try to whip up his dwindling base. He will continue to foment discord and divide as best he can.
Very little said here about Biden striking at some isis planners. Had it been trump doing the striking we would have been hearing how 'tough' he was. Let's be done with Afghanistan and use our resources within our own borders.
Fathertime!
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Assuming what you are saying is true, which it probably is, at the very minimum Trump should pipe down at this time.
Fathertime!
So the Taliban - the leaders are sitting at the table, and they're negotiating with the Afghan government right now about some kind of peace deal, you know, cease-fire or some kind of interim government, the thing that's supposed to end the war.
But at the same time they're doing that, they've launched this very aggressive assassination campaign, which is basically targeting the elites and the educated classes, the people and the women - the people who have benefited most and the people who have really stepped to the fore since 9/11. It's the 9/11 generation, the post-2001 generation, which, basically, the United States has enabled.
And so it's educated people. It's women. It's women's rights activists. It's people with master's degrees and Ph.D.s. And they're targeting them - judges, lawyers, journalists, aid workers - one after the other. So I think we're at pretty close to 500 assassinations since the peace agreement was signed.
http://www.npr.org/2021/03/04/973604904/trumps-deal-to-end-war-in-afghanistan-leaves-biden-with-a-terrible-situation
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One of the major hard currency the US has earned over many decades is that the US stands by its agreements. Partners, allies, international organizations, and even enemies could depend on the US keeping to the terms of international agreements, good or bad, even if others do not keep their word in full. It is a principle that should stand solid, as doing otherwise only lowers the value of our word.
Much of our 'currency' was placed in doubt in the recent past. The value of our agreements was, and in many ways is still, being questioned by other countries and international organizations.
Good or bad, such agreements are not made between presidents and other countries, but between The United States of America and other countries. With our votes, we delegate the power to act on behalf of our nation.
Who knows what aspects we will have to deal with when facing the Taliban in the future. By firmly keeping our word, we only gain leverage in any future relations and negotiations. By defaulting, we lose, not only to the Taliban and whomever will rule in Afghanistan, but with any other future international agreement as well.
Pointing fingers at Trump, Biden or anyone else for faults with our international affairs and agreements, is pointing a finger at the United States of America. Any screw-ups are OUR screw-ups. We ALL need to own them, and take responsibility.
JMHO
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Good or bad, such agreements are not made between presidents and other countries, but between The United States of America and other countries. With our votes, we delegate the power to act on behalf of our nation.
Pointing fingers at Trump, Biden or anyone else for faults with our international affairs and agreements, is pointing a finger at the United States of America. Any screw-ups are OUR screw-ups. We ALL need to own them, and take responsibility.
Quite right; and I have made this argument repeatedly with respect to Putin and the Russian people.
It is wrong to say that Russian people cannot be blamed for the actions of Putin.
Russian people have to own the illegal takeover of Crimea and the illegal invasion of Eastern Ukraine with the tens of thousands of deaths involved and the almost total destruction of the economy and infrastructure there.
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You are using sources that you claim are disreputable and also claim are always left wing. These are your sentiments. Now suddenly you are you acting as if they are preaching the truth and not trying to make money on the news.
Of course my own opinion is that the sources are reporting as they always do.
Fathertime!
No you said repeatedly that I was a partisan hack and that my comments on this
subject were partisan. Now you are changing your argument, because I showed
without question that people on both sides have said Biden screwed this up and
is continuing to screw it up.
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How do you think the Taliban would react if Biden announced he would renege on the agreement?
False dichotomy fallacy, you do this all the time.
Trump wanted to leave, so did Biden, so does 2tallbill. Nobody said that they wanted
to renege on the agreement. So STOP IT.
Biden changed the agreement. Do you remember we were going to leave in May.
Did we renege on the agreement? No, team Biden altered the timeline. Stop with
the subterfuge.
Biden screwed it up. There is no other way to look at it. He should have sent the
civilians home first. He closed the Bagram airbase making it more difficult to get
American civilians home.
You never answered my question
How many Americans do we leave behind? Where do we draw the line?
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It is wrong to say that Russian people cannot be blamed for the actions of Putin.
Yes, it is wrong. It is also wrong for you to insult Russians who come here to
participate in the forum. This is fodder for another thread.
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False dichotomy fallacy, you do this all the time.
Is the premise or argument unsound? If not, my statement does not pose a false dilemma/dichotomy.
Trump wanted to leave, so did Biden, so does 2tallbill. Nobody said that they wanted
to renege on the agreement. So STOP IT.
What feasible options do you see?
Biden changed the agreement. Do you remember we were going to leave in May.
Did we renege on the agreement? No, team Biden altered the timeline. Stop with
the subterfuge.
AFAIK the extension was negotiated? Any info how that came about?
Biden screwed it up. There is no other way to look at it. He should have sent the
civilians home first. He closed the Bagram airbase making it more difficult to get
American civilians home.
Civilians and USC's were asked to leave for some time when normal commercial travel was possible. IIRC at least 6 months. Is that correct? Was closing Bagram air base part of the agreement?
What the United States of America is doing, is offering the possibility of leaving the country, to those who previously had not done so, and for a limited amount of time. It is also committed to assisting any USC's that for whatever reason are not able to leave by the deadline. Assurances have been made by the Taliban that such will be possible, and several countries are attempting to set up transportation possibilities after the last American military flight out of Kabul.
You never answered my question
The answer is as many as is possible.
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It would help your cause if you at least read, and understood, the conditions of the peace deal. Let me at least make it easier for you. here:
http://www.axios.com/trump-taliban-agreement-doha-biden-8dabe136-6dce-4e43-9289-98551bd47ed6.html (http://www.axios.com/trump-taliban-agreement-doha-biden-8dabe136-6dce-4e43-9289-98551bd47ed6.html)
Further, Trump made no threats that you spoke off, LMAO. Think about it. Why make idle verbal threats if you already *have* a peace deal with a clearly defined tenets. Trump wasn't even in attendance when the deal was made.
Taliban repeatedly violated that deal since its signing, and Trump didn't do anything! You may not like to read/hear that fact, but you still cannot change that reality.
Trump got rid of ISIS. Then he pounded the Taliban with a record number of bombs in 2019 to pacify them. Since early 2020 they negotiated for peace and since then, no American troops died. 20 months under Trump's deal no American troops dead. That is as close to perfection as one can get when dealing with thugs. 2 weeks under Biden over a dozen dead. Guess which leader soldiers prefer?
http://www.military.com/daily-news/2020/01/27/us-conducted-record-setting-bomb-drops-over-afghanistan-2019.html (http://www.military.com/daily-news/2020/01/27/us-conducted-record-setting-bomb-drops-over-afghanistan-2019.html)
Trump never promised to leave Afghanistan completely like you're claiming. The deal was for the Taliban and corrupt Afghan government to power share while we leave 800 troops there to clean up any ISIS cells, keep them locked up, and make sure both govt. groups stayed honest. Trump left 2500 troops there that significantly reduced the problems which worked until Biden's actions.
Now that ISIS was released from prison thanks to Biden telling the Defense department to leave them behind while evacuating, almost 200 people now died hundreds injured and the seeds of future terrorist attacks and war have been planted. We'll have to buy all new equipment for the new war because we left 85 billion worth behind for the terrorists.. Biden and his puppet masters aren't that dumb. They're going to enrich the industrial war complex again after getting people praising them for leaving. Trump's plan was successfully winding down the war and need for weapons.
China will begin control of Central Asia. India won't like that they'll be surrounded by more enemies. Expect them to buy more weapons. Pakistan got 33 billion from America to 'help' us on the war on terror but Trump stopped the money because some of the money would go back to lobbying politicians to increase payments to Pakistan while they hide Bin Laden and other big Taliban leaders. A lot of the bad actors in the world wanted Trump out. The American propaganda media made Trump out to be a bad guy. Most Americans have been brainwashed to think bad is good and good is bad.
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Trump got rid of ISIS. Then he pounded the Taliban with a record number of bombs in 2019 to pacify them. Since early 2020 they negotiated for peace and since then, no American troops died. 20 months under Trump's deal no American troops dead. That is as close to perfection as one can get when dealing with thugs. 2 weeks under Biden over a dozen dead. Guess which leader soldiers prefer?
http://www.military.com/daily-news/2020/01/27/us-conducted-record-setting-bomb-drops-over-afghanistan-2019.html (http://www.military.com/daily-news/2020/01/27/us-conducted-record-setting-bomb-drops-over-afghanistan-2019.html)
Trump never promised to leave Afghanistan completely like you're claiming. The deal was for the Taliban and corrupt Afghan government to power share while we leave 800 troops there to clean up any ISIS cells, keep them locked up, and make sure both govt. groups stayed honest. Trump left 2500 troops there that significantly reduced the problems which worked until Biden's actions.
Now that ISIS was released from prison thanks to Biden telling the Defense department to leave them behind while evacuating, almost 200 people now died hundreds injured and the seeds of future terrorist attacks and war have been planted. We'll have to buy all new equipment for the new war because we left 85 billion worth behind for the terrorists.. Biden and his puppet masters aren't that dumb. They're going to enrich the industrial war complex again after getting people praising them for leaving. Trump's plan was successfully winding down the war and need for weapons.
China will begin control of Central Asia. India won't like that they'll be surrounded by more enemies. Expect them to buy more weapons. Pakistan got 33 billion from America to 'help' us on the war on terror but Trump stopped the money because some of the money would go back to lobbying politicians to increase payments to Pakistan while they hide Bin Laden and other big Taliban leaders. A lot of the bad actors in the world wanted Trump out. The American propaganda media made Trump out to be a bad guy. Most Americans have been brainwashed to think bad is good and good is bad.
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Is the premise or argument unsound? If not, my statement does not pose a false dilemma/dichotomy.
What feasible options do you see?
AFAIK the extension was negotiated? Any info how that came about?
My premise is that Biden was not obligated to Trumps deal. You replied that he had
to either do Trumps deal OR renege. That is a false dilemma. Biden wasn't beholden
to Trumps deal because on Apr 13, 2021 Biden announced that he was going to have
all troops out by September 111 That wasn't Trumps deal signed in February.
1. Biden Announces Full U.S. Troop Withdrawal From Afghanistan by Sept. 11
http://www.defense.gov/Explore/News/Article/Article/2573268/biden-announces-full-us-troop-withdrawal-from-afghanistan-by-sept-11/
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The answer is as many as is possible.
That is the wrong answer, but it's Biden's answer too which is why the Democratic
Party is history starting next election. They will pop up again for another run in
2028 but they've jumped off a cliff till then.
The right answer is ALL OF THEM. It's the only answer and that's why Biden is taking
his party down.
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No you said repeatedly that I was a partisan hack and that my comments on this
subject were partisan. Now you are changing your argument, because I showed
without question that people on both sides have said Biden screwed this up and
is continuing to screw it up.
Let's be clear on one thing, you are indeed partisan, that is without question.
YOU are the one who constantly states how all these sources are "Liberal" and "Liberal bias" etc etc. I am of the opinion that they don't necessarily lean overly left, but rather go with the flow of what gets them the most clicks.
Now as to whether Biden screwed up, people have different opinions, some that normally don't criticize biden might on a particular event such as this one. Others, you may not expect, will applaud him. You will consistently, regardless of the situation, deride him (And the evil left) out of partisanship. It's predictable, but that is why I have stated you are a partisan hack.
My opinion is that it wouldn't make a difference of who was in office, the situation is a tough one and most outcomes were going to be lackluster at best, with the end result being very good.
Fathertime!
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That is the wrong answer, but it's Biden's answer too which is why the Democratic
Party is history starting next election. They will pop up many for another run in
2028 but they jumped off a cliff till then.
Your past predictions make me feel that you predict something it will usually be incorrect. The democratic base will grow more by 2024. Anything can happen in the next 3 or so years, but for now biden is running the show and it will be his election to win or lose.
Fathertime!
Fathertime!
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Biden is president, and you are not. He has access to much more information and top level people than you do. When you say he made a mistake, you are speaking from ignorance in comparison to Biden. Had you been in the same seat biden was in (Thankfully you aren't), you might have made the very same decisions he did. It is very easy to armchair quarterback in a partisan sort of way as several do here. Regardless, the decision is made, soon we will be out of afghanistan. To me, it all looks like partisanship on steroids.
A mind is a terrible thing to waste. 26% of America agrees with you, so you are not alone.
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A mind is a terrible thing to waste. 26% of America agrees with you, so you are not alone.
That doesn't change the fact that you are speaking from ignorance compared to Biden, and the information he has at his disposal.
26% agree with what? I didn't stay Biden made the optimal choices, he made his calls, as all presidents do, and rely on their intelligence. You probably are denigrating the US intelligence that Biden referenced.
Fathertime!
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A mind is a terrible thing to waste. 26% of America agrees with you, so you are not alone.
Only 24% of Scots believe in the Loch Ness Monster
More Americans believe in Big Foot than agree with FT
I have a source which FT will never produce.
Source:
http://vancouversun.com/news/staff-blogs/almost-one-in-five-britons-believe-loch-ness-monster-for-real
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make me feel
Fathertime!
ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ. . . .. .
(http://tinyurl.com/44cs55kn)
-
Not perfect, Gator?
Let’s see:
1. Trump had the Pakistani release Mullah Baradar from prison, who now is likely to rule Afghanistan.
Is Baradar worse than the average Taliban leader? I see nothing wrong with the Talliban choosing their own leaders. Besides, Pakistan does not answer to Trump and Pakistan has been supporting the Taliban forever. You act as if this is in the category of Obama's Bergdahl prisoner swap.
2. Taliban Doha negotiators are ex-Gitmo prisoners with axes to grind against the Afghan government.
It was a civil war. All Taliban oppose the former Afghan government. Again, the Taliban choose their leaders.
3. Trump negotiated a peace deal with militants the US doesn’t even recognize as a legitimate ruling body, and at the same time shun the actual ruling government of Afghanistan.
For the previous 20 years, year after year, we talked only with the ruling body and supported them with funds, material, training, etc. How did that go?
4. Trump promise to withdraw all US troops in a given period with a definite deadline.
We were supporting one side in a civil war. Even with America's help, it was apparent after 20 years our side could not win. Most Americans wanted out. An essential step in getting out is getting out, and getting out safely and ASAP.
5. Trump lifts all sanctions against the Talibans, including lifting the arms embargo.
This is a joke, yes? What embargo? Pakistan has been supporting the Taliban forever even under an embargo.
6. It agrees to Taliban demands to have the Afghan government release 5,000 prisoners, which included Al Qaeda and ISIS fighters - plus - an additional 1,000 held up in Bagram airfield base.
The dangerous prisoners were not released until we abandoned Bagram. Do you belive Trump would have abandoned Bagram. Only an idiot would abandon Bagram. Our withdrawal would have been less chaotic, less dangerous if we had stayed at Bagram until the last plane left, when the Taliban could walk in and release the prisoners. Would you have us move all the prisoners to Gitmo?
7. Trump agrees to immediately cease military support of the Afghan force in Afghanistan if Talibans cease all violence against the US force.
The Afghan forces outnumbered the Taliban 6-to-1, and had far superior weapons. One would think they could defend their positions, yet the Afghan forces caved when it became apparent they were on their own. We should have seen this coming years ago when organizing and training the Afghan force. Yet the generals in the field lied to the different Presidents saying the mission was achievable and progressing. Also, I understand we still gave some support, yet indeed stopped fighting alongside them. Important to note - no American servicemen had been killed after the agreement until Thursday, when the number killed in one day was the most in 10 years.
Trump bears total responsibility of everything that unfolded in Afghanistan today. And since he guaranteed release of the 6,000 prisoners, which included ISIS militants held in Afghan jails, he is solely responsible for the ISIS suicide bomber attack that killed 13 US soldiers and 170 Afghans.
Stunning! If that were the case, you should blame George W Bush because he made the decision to stay in Afghanistan. You can't stop with George W, because Clinton and George H before him were responsible for killing Muslims in Somalia and elsewhere, all of which motivated the 9-11 attack that compelled us to enter Afghanistan. The way you are going, the Democrat Party will appreciate your campaign contributions.
-
My premise is that Biden was not obligated to Trumps deal. You replied that he had
to either do Trumps deal OR renege. That is a false dilemma. Biden wasn't beholden
to Trumps deal because on Apr 13, 2021 Biden announced that he was going to have
all troops out by September 111 That wasn't Trumps deal signed in February.
1. Biden Announces Full U.S. Troop Withdrawal From Afghanistan by Sept. 11
http://www.defense.gov/Explore/News/Article/Article/2573268/biden-announces-full-us-troop-withdrawal-from-afghanistan-by-sept-11/
http://www.france24.com/en/live-news/20210825-why-is-august-31-the-date-for-the-us-pullout-from-afghanistan
Offers some context as well. lets both read each others link and digest for a bit.
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Trump promised to get us out of Afghanistan but he also told us a rapid Biden style exit is unpredictable and unacceptable.
http://t.me/WeTheMedia/31313 (http://t.me/WeTheMedia/31313)
We will see the reemergence of ISIS, future terrorist attacks and war. We will see China control green energy batteries and they will control our energy. China and others are licking their chops for new opportunity after seeing how Biden abandoned our friends and our citizens to the enemy. Taiwan announce increase defense spending. India is being surrounded by China's influence. The world today is a much more dangerous place than it was two weeks ago. Some people think Biden made a mistake. I still think he and his puppet masters did it on purpose kinda like when they told us to self isolate in our homes because COVID kills and then they stick COVID infected people into the homes of the most vulnerable. No, they aren't stupid. They know exactly what they're doing.
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German troops finished evacuating their citizens and left and just now it was reported the UK's troops left. US troops are all alone. I guess Biden didn't ask for anybody's help. Maybe he did but they don't want to help. Intel reports more terrorist attacks are going to happen. Biden did ask the Taliban to secure the outside of the airport. Can we trust them? Will our State Department and Generals huddle troops together again outside the doors of the airport? One retired general personally knows the Marine 4 star general McKenzie head of CENTCOM responsible for that region and heard his speech after the terrorist attack. The retired general said that wasn't McKenzie speaking. That speech was written by the State Department.
-
Only 24% of Scots believe in the Loch Ness Monster
More Americans believe in Big Foot than agree with FT
I have a source which FT will never produce.
Source:
http://vancouversun.com/news/staff-blogs/almost-one-in-five-britons-believe-loch-ness-monster-for-real
ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ. . . .. .
(http://tinyurl.com/44cs55kn)
So easily triggered
Fathertime!
-
German troops finished evacuating their citizens and left and just now it was reported the UK's troops left.
The Germans have ended their evacuation mission.
As of yesterday, there were still 300 German citizens and roughly 10,000 Afghans registered with German authorities wanting to leave. The Germans are negotiating with the Taliban and neighboring countries to move them out of the country by land routes to their consulates in Pakistan and Uzbekistan and then on to Germany.
http://www.zeit.de/politik/ausland/2021-08/afghanistan-evakuierung-ausreiseliste-auswaertige-amt-bundeswehr-kabul
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http://www.france24.com/en/live-news/20210825-why-is-august-31-the-date-for-the-us-pullout-from-afghanistan
Offers some context as well. lets both read each others link and digest for a bit.
Good plan, I will read the link think about it and look at it again with a fresh mind tomorrow.
Udachi!
Bill
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. We will see China control green energy batteries and they will control our energy. China and others are licking their chops for new opportunity after seeing how Biden abandoned our friends and our citizens to the enemy. [/size]
It is quite possible that China will have more control of resources. They have more and more money and that money can buy more resources. US wars have failed to produce the results the US would have liked. While we (The US) have been focused on bombing people, China has been manufacturing product for the world. It is expected at some point they will reap rewards for their work. US should rethink strategy and in my opinion start here at home. I don't that the current US citizenry could stomach the work it would entail.
Fathertime!
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Is Baradar worse than the average Taliban leader? I see nothing wrong with the Talliban choosing their own leaders. Besides, Pakistan does not answer to Trump and Pakistan has been supporting the Taliban forever. You act as if this is in the category of Obama's Bergdahl prisoner swap.
What a hoot! Funny. Using that type of mentality, we should’ve just sent Osama Bin Laden a Hallmark card sometime after 9/11 telling him to stop it, then sent the ‘90s Taliban that we understood they don’t answer to us, but if they didn’t want to give up OBL, we can never be BFF anymore. LMAO. Then send both Qaddafi and Saddam birthday cards.
LMAO.
It was a civil war. All Taliban oppose the former Afghan government. Again, the Taliban choose their leaders.
Ditto. See above. Why didn't we think of that 9/12/2001?
For the previous 20 years, year after year, we talked only with the ruling body and supported them with funds, material, training, etc. How did that go?
We were supporting one side in a civil war. Even with America's help, it was apparent after 20 years our side could not win. Most Americans wanted out. An essential step in getting out is getting out, and getting out safely and ASAP.
Afghanistan didn’t have ruling body all of the past 20 years after our occupation. No need to exaggerate.
Even after they established one during our occupation, it became an even bigger responsibility for the US to insure its viability if for no other reason than the fact the US, FWIW, had more than a hand in its formation. Trump sold them out in a heartbeat for his selfish quest for notoriety, and thousands of Afghans were sacrificed, being and will be sacrificed, because of his ego. The US should've insisted in the inclusion of the legitimate Afghan government for the future of Afghanistan against a band of militants.
This is a joke, yes? What embargo? Pakistan has been supporting the Taliban forever even under an embargo.
Actually no, it isn't. That would even make Trump's action even dumber then right? Why bother lifting a arms embargo if they already are being armed by someone anyway, right?
UNSCR 1076 – ’96 passed this resolution. I didn’t realized Trump alone had the power to lift this all by his lonesome self. If so, another damned good reason to abolished the UN, since we’re o the subject of wasteful efforts and intent.
The dangerous prisoners were not released until we abandoned Bagram
Not true. Al Qaeda, ISIS-K, Taliban commanders were part of the 5,000 released that immediately went to battle. There were additional militants of the same group at Bagram, but the majority were already engage in the field.
Our withdrawal would have been less chaotic, less dangerous if we had stayed at Bagram until the last plane left, when the Taliban could walk in and release the prisoners. Would you have us move all the prisoners to Gitmo?
Bagram would've been less dangerous? Really? Explain. LMAO. The area would've been much more isolated, easier to choke-off. It would be even harder for SIVs to get to, much less American citizens and NATO allies.
But I will wait for you to explain it yourself because even Gen. Milley & Sec. Austin, much more in touch with the conditions at the time more than you and me combined, believed KIA was an easier, much better area to protect and manage.
So let's wait for your two cents..
Do you belive Trump would have abandoned Bagram. Only an idiot would abandon Bagram.
LMAO! Is THIS a joke? He abandoned the entire freaking country!!! Do catch up!
The Afghan forces outnumbered the Taliban 6-to-1, and had far superior weapons. One would think they could defend their positions, yet the Afghan forces caved when it became apparent they were on their own. We should have seen this coming years ago when organizing and training the Afghan force. Yet the generals in the field lied to the different Presidents saying the mission was achievable and progressing.
March 1, 2020 was the beginning of the Taliban advance against the Afghan govt. In hindsight, no one expected them to fall that ‘fast’. [/size]Sure. Glad you noticed that. Biden and his military advisors didn't either. Yet everyone blames him for the collapse. Blame him for something no one else expected to happen, happened.
‘Falling that fast’ is a matter of interpretation anyway. The army began to realize they were sold out. Virtually no communication of the extent of the US's abandonment of the Afghan govt/army. Trump literally offered them up for slaughter. Had they been made a part of the Doha meetings and negotiation, they would’ve been notified of every details of the negotiations, and communications funneled right through their field commanders.
Also, I understand we still gave some support, yet indeed stopped fighting alongside them. Important to note - no American servicemen had been killed after the agreement until Thursday, when the number killed in one day was the most in 10 years.
NYT issued a report of this very reality. They gave zero field military support. We equipped an under-trained army and without warning, suddenly pulled the rug from underneath them.
Stunning! If that were the case, you should blame George W Bush because he made the decision to stay in Afghanistan. You can't stop with George W, because Clinton and George H before him were responsible for killing Muslims in Somalia and elsewhere, all of which motivated the 9-11 attack that compelled us to enter Afghanistan. The way you are going, the Democrat Party will appreciate your campaign contributions.
Exactly my point. I do blame Bush, along with the stooge Obama, and now Trump. You’re free to disagree, that’s OK. IMO, Trump is FULLY responsible for the mess he left behind in Afghanistan. Especially the recent ISIS-K suicide bomber that Trump helped released from prison.
And since you can now plainly 'see' what releasing prisoners can actually do in short order, maybe sometime you'll better understand why your attitude pertaining to dealing with a commander who ordered killing Americans like Mullah Baradar, and negotiating anything with characters like ex-Gitmo prisoners may not be as kosher you seem to believe negotiating peace deals with them are.
Hell, in hindsight, Bush could've just invited OBL at Camp David and gave him rewards and concessions like Trump handed to the Talibans at DOHA, and we could've prevented being in Afghanistan all these years in the first place, eh?
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The Germans have ended their evacuation mission.
As of yesterday, there were still 300 German citizens and roughly 10,000 Afghans registered with German authorities wanting to leave. The Germans are negotiating with the Taliban and neighboring countries to move them out of the country by land routes to their consulates in Pakistan and Uzbekistan and then on to Germany.
http://www.zeit.de/politik/ausland/2021-08/afghanistan-evakuierung-ausreiseliste-auswaertige-amt-bundeswehr-kabul
Italy reporting says all 121 Italians that wanted to leave were evacuated along with 4890 Afghan citizens, 2754 of them women and children. 87 flights in 14 days.
http://www.comunicatistampa.org/afghanistan-evacuati-tutti-gli-italiani-partito-lultimo-c-130/
A UK charter flight got 200 dogs and cats out.
http://news.sky.com/story/afghanistan-charter-plane-arrives-in-kabul-to-collect-pen-farthing-and-his-animals-12393262
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Let's be clear on one thing, you are indeed partisan, that is without question. YOU are the one who constantly states... You will consistently, regardless of the situation, deride him (And the evil left) out of partisanship. It's predictable, but that is why I have stated you are a partisan hack.
You really overuse that word 'partisan'. Mix it up a little... http://www.google.com/search?q=partisan+synonym/
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You really overuse that word 'partisan'. Mix it up a little... http://www.google.com/search?q=partisan+synonym/
Thanks for intense interest in the words in the posts I make.
Fathertime!
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Let's see how our government figures these things out based on priority.
2500 troops kept Americans and Afghanistan relatively safe and ISIS and other terrorists locked up. The country went to hell after all the troops pulled out.
Our government sends 5000 troops back to protect 15,000 American citizens fleeing for their lives.
Jan 7th after protestors went home, none arrested for weapons or charged with insurrection, our government sent 26,000 troops to protect 535 politicians for months.
Mother of a murdered soldier called a radio show. She did not have nice things to say about Biden.
http://beckernews.com/you-just-killed-my-son-anguished-mother-unloads-on-feckless-dementia-ridden-piece-of-crap-biden-knab-41176/
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So easily triggered
Fathertime!
So easy to ignore when you can't make a point or stay with it.
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Americans' harsh judgment on Afghanistan costs Biden's approval, down to 41%
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2021/08/24/afghanistan-woes-sink-bidens-approval-41-usa-today-suffolk-poll/8244854002/
Do you want to dive into the poll? Here are the all the details
http://www.documentcloud.org/documents/21046968-210188-nbc-news-august-poll-8-22-21-release
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Bill-
Biden’s lowered approval rate have very little to do with Afghanistan. It has most to do in his handling of the economy and the pandemic.
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Bill-
Biden’s lowered approval rate have very little to do with Afghanistan. It has most to do
in his handling of the economy and the pandemic.
I agree, Afghanistan was just icing on the cake. Next month it might be even lower
Biden still hasn't made a correct decision domestically since he has been president.
The press have been covering for Biden nationally but they can only fool those that
allow themselves to be fooled.
Dementia-Boy Biden has allowed far left wing group think to dictate national policies
and only 100% of those policies are bad. The Dem's are going to pay a price for allowing
the left wing loons to run the asylum.
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GQ, thanks for the issue by issue response to the post I wrote about your lists of faults with Trump's effect in Afghanistan.
I missed your point with some of your responses. Some responses seemed deflective to me, and a couple outright absurd. Yet, some are reasonable questions and I will try to answer.
... then sent the ‘90s Taliban that we understood they don’t answer to us, but if they didn’t want to give up OBL, we can never be BFF anymore.
Your parody sounds just like what Biden did. Biden is asking the Taliban for security and giving them lists of Americans who likely will be stranded after we withdraw.
On 9-11 the Taliban controlled Kabul and the area surrounding OBL. Bush demanded they give up OBL. When the Taliban refused, we invaded in a strategy similar to Trump's destruction of ISIS in Syria.
Afghanistan didn’t have ruling body all of the past 20 years after our occupation. No need to exaggerate.
Not the West's concept of a ruling body because Afghanistan has been ruled more as a tribal-warlord-Emirate culture forever. I explained this US mistake in my first posts in this thread.
The US should've insisted in the inclusion of the legitimate Afghan government for the future of Afghanistan against a band of militants.
I thought Trump's planning included exactly this. So what should the US have done when the Taliban refused to work with the elected government operating in Kabul? The choices were: a) withdraw anyway, b) maintain a modest American force in Afghanistan subjected to increasing Taliban attacks, or c) Surge II.
WHAT OPTION WOULD YOU HAVE CHOSEN AND HOW WOULD THE RESULTS DIFFER FROM TODAY?
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GQ, I have more but something else is taking precedence.
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Bill-
Biden’s lowered approval rate have very little to do with Afghanistan. It has most to do in his handling of the economy and the pandemic.
If no recession hits during biden's first time, I'd be surprised. Trump had the bad timing of the pandemic hit the economy during his reign, now biden may also have a recession hit as well. I have sensed a slowing of business in the last 2-3 months, and many of the people that come around are feeling it as well. Nothing critical, but a definite slowing, at least here in SoCal.
Fathertime!
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American citizens approaching the airport were beat by the Taliban and told not to come back unless they brought money. Since the Taliban is active in delaying the evacuation of American citizens, the Taliban offers to extend Aug 31st deadline if Biden unfreeze their funds. Whether Biden abandons Americans or give in to terrorist's demands, they successfully made Biden look like a fool and weak....again.
Our government said they killed two ISIS planners as retaliation but couldn't give us names. This Pentagon spokesperson is lying his ass off.
http://t.me/TheStormHasArrived17/4962
Retired special operations vets performed rescue missions without out government's permission.
This Afghanistan ordeal is too much for Biden to handle. As the Israeli PM was talking to him, Biden fell asleep.
http://t.me/behizy/1200
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GQ, completing my thoughts on comments from your post.
Actually no, it isn't. That would even make Trump's action even dumber then right? Why bother lifting a arms embargo if they already are being armed by someone anyway, right?
The Taliban essentially originated in Pakistan. Pakistan and the Taliban have been coooperating ever since Taliban's founder Mullah Mohammad Omar started recruiting his fighters there. ISI has never stopped supporting Omar and his Taliban succesors
Not true. Al Qaeda, ISIS-K, Taliban commanders were part of the 5,000 released that immediately went to battle. There were additional militants of the same group at Bagram, but the majority were already engaged3 in the field.
I know there were two prisons. I do not know the split in numbers betweeen the two, so if you have a good source, please elaborate. As part of our withdrawal we transferred operation of these two prisons over to Afghan forces, and it seems the next day the Afghan forces abandoned the prisons, freeing the prisoners.
Bagram would've been less dangerous? Really? Explain. LMAO. The area would've been much more isolated, easier to choke-off. It would be even harder for SIVs to get to, much less American citizens and NATO allies.
You would understand if 1) you have some experience of walking around in centuries-old bazaars, souks, alleys and dwellings of Middle East cities and 2) you had some training in military defensive strategies. It is well accepted that urban combat is the most dangerous (e. g., Mogadishu).
But I will wait for you to explain it yourself because even Gen. Milley & Sec. Austin, much more in touch with the conditions at the time more than you and me combined, believed KIA was an easier, much better area to protect and manage.
As I stated earlier when generals start striving to add more stars they become political. As such, most f toorget how say "no" because "no" requires their resignation. It will be interesting to learn who said what and when, although I doubt the truth will ever be known. Generals and politicians protect each other, partly because everyone has "dirt" on the other.
March 1, 2020 was the beginning of the Taliban advance against the Afghan govt. In hindsight, no one expected them to fall that ‘fast’. Biden and his military advisors didn't either. Yet everyone blames him for the collapse. ....‘Falling that fast’ is a matter of interpretation anyway.
They surrendered even quicker than the Italians in WWII. I explained why in my first posts in this thread.
NYT issued a report of this very reality. They gave zero field military support. We equipped an under-trained army and without warning, suddenly pulled the rug from underneath them.
And how much did we waste year after year after year in training and equipping the Afghan national Army? Blame the generals who reported to DC that the development of an effective Army was progressing well and all the US govt needed to do was continue to fund it.
GQ, I too am upset with Trump for what he did after he lost the election. However, that is another story entirely, and should not influence an analysis of what is happening in Afghanistan. Do you not find it odd that CNN is more critical of Biden than you are?
Could it be you and I have reached the point of talking past each other? If so, such dialogue rarely yields reasonable resolution of issues.
For some balanced bipartisan analysis, I have appreciated what Representatives Moulton and Meijer have reported.
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they successfully made Biden look like a fool and weak....again.
Democratic Party International Negotiations Course 101:
1. Concede Defeat
2. Pay them off
3. Lather, Rinse and Repeat
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Democratic Party International Negotiations Course 101:
1. Concede Defeat
2. Pay them off
3. Lather, Rinse and Repeat
Trump made the decision to pull troops out of Afghanistan and Ted Cruz backed him. I wasn't a fan of the decision and certainly didn't back Biden in actually doing it.
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Bill-
Biden’s lowered approval rate have very little to do with Afghanistan. It has most to do
in his handling of the economy and the pandemic.
The economy, the pandemic, the Southern border, skyrocketing inflation, higher energy costs,
record crime and letting bad actors like China and Iran take advantage of us. Biden's mismanagement has assured us that we will have hostages.
Biden makes Jimmy Carter look good!
A stagflation swamp: Joe Biden is Jimmy Carter 2.0
http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/op-eds/a-stagflation-swamp-joe-biden-is-jimmy-carter-2-0
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GQ, completing my thoughts on comments from your post.
The Taliban essentially originated in Pakistan. Pakistan and the Taliban have been coooperating ever since Taliban's founder Mullah Mohammad Omar started recruiting his fighters there. ISI has never stopped supporting Omar and his Taliban succesors
Geez..even my neighbor’s parakeet knew that.
I know there were two prisons. I do not know the split in numbers betweeen the two, so if you have a good source, please elaborate. As part of our withdrawal we transferred operation of these two prisons over to Afghan forces, and it seems the next day the Afghan forces abandoned the prisons, freeing the prisoners.
1. Prison operation transfer began way back early on Obama’s first term as a result of Iraq's Abu Graib prison scandal. Mainstream media doesn’t cover this so I’m sure you’ll need to do deeper research.
2. There are more than a few prisons that held combatants under Afghan control. ISIS-K stronghold was in jalalabad. They attempted to free Isis prisoners there last year via car bombing. It jailed thousands of ISIS fighters that surrendered during the Afghan offensive supported by NATO forces.
3. The prison in Bagram is actually called Parwan prison due to its location. Parwan province. Max occupancy was 1700+/-. When the US left, the jail only held in the high 900s.
4. The bigger prison east of Kabul, which held 5,000 prisoners that included ISIS and Al Qaeda fighters is called called Pul e Charkhi. An hour and a half away from Bagram. So gullible Americans who only rely on daily fake news feed to rile partisan hacks, would read feeds that this prison is what is in Bagram.
Here’s a sample of fake news: http://news.yahoo.com/video-shows-thousands-prisoners-reportedly-160907873.html (http://news.yahoo.com/video-shows-thousands-prisoners-reportedly-160907873.html)
Afghan government troops surrendered Bagram airbase to the Taliban early on Sunday. The base houses Pul-e-Charki prison, which has around 5,000 prisoners. It is the largest in Afghanistan and notorious for its poor conditions. A maximum-security cellblock held members of al Qaeda and Taliban, said reports
I attached a Google Earth snapshot showing where both Bagram Air Base is from this prison. I won’t be surprised you relied on this media, or one just like it to believe ISIS prisoners came out of Bagram.
5. Pul e charkhi is where Talibans executed Omar Khorasani soon after his release. Omar is one of ISIS leader in Afghanistan. Not long after that, the Talibans admitted their blunder when they realize they released thousands of ISIS fighters from that prison.
6. John Kirby came out lying to his teeth when he said the US had notified the Afghan commander all along that they were abandoning Bagram. Afghan commander disputes it. When the US left, they turned off the electricity in the base, rendering all security and surveillance inoperative. They also left the freaking gates wide open. Two hours later when the Afghan force came, there were looters looting the place. So the US didn't transfer control to the Afghans when they left Bagram. As for Pul e Charkhi, Trump administration pressured Ghani to do it.
You would understand if 1) you have some experience of walking around in centuries-old bazaars, souks, alleys and dwellings of Middle East cities and 2) you had some training in military defensive strategies. It is well accepted that urban combat is the most dangerous (e. g., Mogadishu).
OY! That’s your take how Bagram in your mind was the better place to use for the evacuation?
Gator, the US is not engaging in urban warfare during an evacuation operation, okay? Get a grip. So Mogadishu have ZERO to do in this situation. We are two days away from ending an evacuation operation that is incredibly successful in the UNPRECEDENTED manner with the sheer number of evacuated people, and aside from Trump’s released ISIS prisoner that killed 13 of our soldiers and 170 afghans, there had been little to no violent engagement. The US needed troops to protect the airport and crowd control. They didn’t sent troops to engage a firefight in the streets of Kabul. So your * defensive strategies* wasn’t necessary, nor walking around in some century-old Middle East bazaar.
Unbelievable.
Other than that, your response was pretty entertaining. I admit, I chuckled.
As I stated earlier when generals start striving to add more stars they become political. As such, most f toorget how say "no" because "no" requires their resignation. It will be interesting to learn who said what and when, although I doubt the truth will ever be known. Generals and politicians protect each other, partly because everyone has "dirt" on the other.
It doesn’t really matter. They already established the fall guy.
They surrendered even quicker than the Italians in WWII. I explained why in my first posts in this thread.
Waste of bandwidth.
And how much did we waste year after year after year in training and equipping the Afghan national Army? Blame the generals who reported to DC that the development of an effective Army was progressing well and all the US govt needed to do was continue to fund it.
Afghans are the victims of our invasion. They didn’t exactly asked us to invade their country and subject them to two decades of war, not to mention this now pending Taliban onslaught.
GQ, I too am upset with Trump for what he did after he lost the election. However, that is another story entirely, and should not influence an analysis of what is happening in Afghanistan.
I doubt anyone here supported this idiot more than I did. What he’s done post-election and to Afghanistan is simply tragic.
Do you not find it odd that CNN is more critical of Biden than you are?
No. It’s losing massive amounts of money. So it had to do what it does best, crank out fake news so gullible Americans have something to swallow every day.
For some balanced bipartisan analysis, I have appreciated what Representatives Moulton and Meijer have reported.
I don’t. I think they’re a couple of inconsiderate buffoons. To pull a stunt like what they did is idiotic during a frantic, chaotic period in a country at war. Then actually have the stupid audacity to take two seats in a plane that someone else could’ve use.
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I thought Trump's planning included exactly this. So what should the US have done when the Taliban refused to work with the elected government operating in Kabul? The choices were: a) withdraw anyway, b) maintain a modest American force in Afghanistan subjected to increasing Taliban attacks, or c) Surge II.WHAT OPTION WOULD YOU HAVE CHOSEN AND HOW WOULD THE RESULTS DIFFER FROM TODAY?
LMAO. Is this a trick question?
The deal was nothing but a heavily-skewed, massive carrot to the Taliban. There was nothing in it that even remotely favored the legitimate government of Afghanistan. Heavens the only thing missing in that 'peace deal' was a lifetime membership to Trump National.
At the very least, if the Afghan government was not going to be part of that negotiation, then negotiate a 'no violence to Afghan government/force' clause in the deal.
People got all riled up about the US pulling troops out of the country, but little is said why that was even done. There were thousands of US-contracted civilian security contractors, not including TCNs actively working in Afghanistan. NATO force was still at 7,000 strong. Biden wanted US troops out of harm's way as much as possible.
You folks ought to start reading about the US's shadow army. They are at every freaking war we engage in because it is widely preferred by our military for a multitude of reasons, a) it is far less 'political', b) the media doesn't cover them, c) they are not bound and confined by military creed, etc...
http://www.newsweek.com/exclusive-inside-militarys-secret-undercover-army-1591881 (http://www.newsweek.com/exclusive-inside-militarys-secret-undercover-army-1591881)
http://www.businessinsider.com/americas-army-of-contractors-is-withdrawing-from-afghanistan-too-2021-5
So when Gen. Milley tells you they don't have an accurate number of Americans still in Afghanistan...or Americans who doesn't want to leave...that's the reason why.
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Our government said they killed two ISIS planners as retaliation but couldn't give us names. This Pentagon spokesperson is lying his ass off.
http://t.me/TheStormHasArrived17/4962 (http://t.me/TheStormHasArrived17/4962)
I heard a report that we killed an interpreter and his family. Probably why the Pentagon doesn't have answers. We don't have ground troops to identify those in the house before the strike so who did the verification? It's possible we relied on that the Taliban for intelligence. We gave them a list of people we want to take back to America. The Taliban probably directed our missiles to hit the house of an interpreter who helped us. Our government eager to punish those who killed our troops took the bait. Taliban made us look incompetent again.
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9 Civilians, 6 are children dead from American missile attack. Pentagon still refuses to tell us who is giving us the intel on which targets to attack.
http://citizenfreepress.com/breaking/bidens-drone-strike-killed-an-entirely-innocent-family-of-9/
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97 countries issued a joint statement regarding onward evacuations. I hope it works as stated.
http://www.state.gov/joint-statement-on-afghanistan-evacuation-travel-assurances/
We are all committed to ensuring that our citizens, nationals and residents, employees, Afghans who have worked with us and those who are at risk can continue to travel freely to destinations outside Afghanistan. We have received assurances from the Taliban that all foreign nationals and any Afghan citizen with travel authorization from our countries will be allowed to proceed in a safe and orderly manner to points of departure and travel outside the country. We will continue issuing travel documentation to designated Afghans, and we have the clear expectation of and commitment from the Taliban that they can travel to our respective countries. We note the public statements of the Taliban confirming this understanding.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2nrb3tDfiTs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZBXD7asKzlo&t=13s
Love these actual footages from Afghanistan.
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Damn!! Enjeti is spot-on with me...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FBtFfMG-fz0
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(comments on parakeets...prisons....airport security...fake news)
I will refrain from adding to the walls of words.
The key fact is the US has completed its withdrawal. The withdrawal was chaotic. We sufferred 13 dead and maybe left as few as 300 Americans in Afghanistan. It could have been worse. Possibly some credit for a voiding diastermust go to the loose-knit Taliban who abided by their agreement to not attack and to help with the security of America's withdrawal.
Now the oversight hearings will start, and hopefully we will learn more about what went wrong and why. You blame Trump. I blame Biden. I single out Biden's major mistake - namely deciding to withdraw the military before evacuating our citizens. You defended Biden's decision in this comment:
People got all riled up about the US pulling troops out of the country, but little is said why that was even done. There were thousands of US-contracted civilian security contractors, not including TCNs actively working in Afghanistan. NATO force was still at 7,000 strong. Biden wanted US troops out of harm's way as much as possible.
If you believe Biden made the correct decision to withdraw the military early because he had adequate forces of security contractors, please explain why Biden had to deploy at the last moment as many as 6,000 troops from the 82nd airborne and the USMC for airport security.
I assert Biden was complacent about the execution of the withdrawal, too distracted by domestic issues, and not comprehending the significance and speed of Taliban advances. Sweet suffering Jesus.....Biden and his staff set off for vacation t the day before Ghani fled and Kabul fell to the Taliban. Clearly, there was a disconnect, the Biden vacation started while US embassy staff in Kabul destroyed classified documents.
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Ok every nation now out of Afghanistan, last one out switch off the lights ;D
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We suffered 13 dead and maybe left 300 Americans in Afghanistan.
Grounds for impeachment and removal from office.
Now the oversight hearings will start, and hopefully we will learn more about what
went wrong and why.
Hahahahhaha!!
The tooth fairy isn't real, the Easter Bunny doesn't hop around passing out chocolate
eggs AND The oversight hearings are to provide cover and to cover up Democratic faults
and failures.
The ONLY way that the oversight hearings would provide ANY new information is if the
Democrats were in the minority in both houses. This will be a snow job, cover up, sham,
kangaroo court, inside job. I can't believe you would be gullible enough to think that the
dem's would allow legit hearings in any house of congress that they are the majority of.
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Now the oversight hearings will start, and hopefully we will learn more about what went wrong and why. You blame Trump. I blame Biden. I single out Biden's major mistake - namely deciding to withdraw the military before evacuating our citizens. You defended Biden's decision in this comment:
If you believe Biden made the correct decision to withdraw the military early because he had adequate forces of security contractors, please explain why Biden had to deploy at the last moment as many as 6,000 troops from the 82nd airborne and the USMC for airport security.
I assert Biden was complacent about the execution of the withdrawal, too distracted by domestic issues, and not comprehending the significance and speed of Taliban advances. Sweet suffering Jesus.....Biden and his staff set off for vacation t the day before Ghani fled and Kabul fell to the Taliban. Clearly, there was a disconnect, the Biden vacation started while US embassy staff in Kabul destroyed classified documents.
1. Because of the realization that the intelligence was wrong in their assumption that the Afghan forces would actually be able to hold on their defenses, and give the evacuation more than ample time to execute its operation.
2. It became obvious that a panicked onslaught of Afghan SIV, TCNs, American civilians, personnel in addition to having to fortify the airport perimeter, requires a much larger contingent of troops to manage crowd control. It likely requires a good amount of manpower to subvert any possible attack from militants.
3. The speed in which the Taliban captured Kabul.
I will not be surprise if troop deployment also happened not just at KAI, but in various regions for covert rescue missions.
My take.
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Although direct evacuations are over, and others should be ongoing for some time to come, maybe a little reflection is needed as to what happened, by design or not, as far as the Afghan people are concerned.
A small, but significant portion of the population received an education. A huge accomplishment.
Many women were educated. An extraordinary accomplishment.
65% literacy among the younger generation. Wow..
A brief sense of human and women's rights passed on. A huge accomplishment.
Diverse peoples from many nations got to know each other, whether at the markets in Kabul, schools, and military. Friendships were formed. A huge accomplishment.
Some language barriers were overcome. A huge accomplishment.
Communications, and even the internet, introduced to many. A huge accomplishment.
Exchanges of culture, music and arts. A huge accomplishment.
Introduction of other forms of governance. A huge accomplishment.
Many thousands of their citizens now live in other countries, many will remain active in the interests of their homeland. A huge accomplishment.
An otherwise ignored nation was put on the world map, gaining international attention. A huge accomplishment.
New diplomatic channels emerging from many nations with new leaders there. A huge accomplishment.
Sure, all the above regards relatively few, there will be some steps back now, some limitations that may be severe and difficult, even violent, but seeds have been planted and at least some reassurances by their new leaders that some things may 'stick'; like education for women albeit segregated, almost unheard of decades ago. Actually a lot, unheard of decades ago from their POV and many things even the Taliban cannot ignore or completely suppress.
Like any other nation, lasting change will take time, and time passes slowly in those parts of the world. But the process has been given a boost, even if it doesn't quench our desires for instant satisfaction. The international community has leverage and can help if deserved. The Taliban got what they wanted, so now it's up to them to prove they're up to the task, and up to the people of Afghanistan to adapt, and change from within if they so desire, on their timeline and not ours.
I hope we learned a lot as well. The toll was high, high enough to remember for some time to come.
With all the doom and gloom being forecasted, all the recriminations, misgivings and blame being passed about, thought I would just throw this hasty post out as food for thought.
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Grounds for impeachment and removal from office.
The shrill screaming on far right talk radio about impeachment was deafening. I say the right should go ahead and give it a go. See what the nation thinks. I think a majority wanted trump impeached, but I doubt that will be the case with biden. Talk radio will whip up it's dwindling base though.
Grounds for impeachment and removal from office.
The tooth fairy isn't real, the Easter Bunny doesn't hop around passing out chocolate
eggs AND The oversight hearings are to provide cover and to cover up Democratic faults
and failures.
The ONLY way that the oversight hearings would provide ANY new information is if the
Democrats were in the minority in both houses. This will be a snow job, cover up, sham,
kangaroo court, inside job. I can't believe you would be gullible enough to think that the
dem's would allow legit hearings in any house of congress that they are the majority of.
You seem to have very little faith in the system here in the US.
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The key fact is the US has completed its withdrawal.
Is that what our government is saying now?
Former Admiral and now congressman pleads for Congress to get back from vacation and help evacuate Americans. He said his constituents are still stuck there trying to get out. One mother tried a last time to get to the Airport. The Taliban put a gun to her head and said if she comes back, they'll kill her. The Taliban beat her 15 yo son. Congressman said they tried to contact State Dept for help and did not get it. Our State Dept are letting Taliban dictate things and won't help our citizens get out. I wonder how motivated our media is going to be on reporting future deaths and rapes. Taliban will see every American we left behind as abandoned and free to do as they wish.
http://t.me/KanekoaTheGreat/1485
http://t.me/CodeMonkeyZ/1346
Dead America soldiers getting unloaded off the plane. Biden checking his watch. I guess he has more important events to attend.
http://t.me/behizy/1208
Almost 100 Afghanis brought to America on terror watch list.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9924131/Up-100-Afghan-evacuees-flown-war-torn-Kabul-terror-watch-lists-official-warns.html
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A small, but significant portion of the population received an education. A huge accomplishment.
Many women were educated. An extraordinary accomplishment.
65% literacy among the younger generation. Wow..
Certainly important given the median age in Afghanistan is 18 years. Much of the education likely resulted from foreign aid. Now what?
A brief sense of human and women's rights passed on. A huge accomplishment.
Yes, but will the Taliban continue this movement?
Diverse peoples from many nations got to know each other, whether at the markets in Kabul, schools, and military. Friendships were formed. A huge accomplishment.
Some language barriers were overcome. A huge accomplishment.
Communications, and even the internet, introduced to many. A huge accomplishment.
Exchanges of culture, music and arts. A huge accomplishment.
Introduction of other forms of governance. A huge accomplishment.
Many thousands of their citizens now live in other countries, many will remain active in the interests of their homeland. A huge accomplishment.
A benefit enjoyed by 0.01% of Afghani people.
An otherwise ignored nation was put on the world map, gaining international attention. A huge accomplishment.
The international attention has reinforced the fact that Afghanistan is a place to avoid, unless you are a Chinese minerals company.
Frankly Afghanistan was more appealing in 1977 when I visited it briefly as a tourist from nearby Iran where I worked.
New diplomatic channels emerging from many nations with new leaders there. A huge accomplishment.
What? Diplomatic channels have relocated and downsized.
.... and many things even the Taliban cannot ignore or completely suppress....The Taliban got what they wanted, so now it's up to them to prove they're up to the task, and up to the people of Afghanistan to adapt, and change from within if they so desire, on their timeline and not ours.
Next door in Iran how has this same sentiment grown over the past 40+ years into something meaningful? My opinion remains the same. Ignore the Middle East. The Middle East is not a threat. Leave them alone and allow them stay busy killing each other. Stay energy independent. Focus on how to compete with China.
With all the doom and gloom being forecasted, all the recriminations, misgivings and blame being passed about, thought I would just throw this hasty post out as food for thought.
Our involvement was a waste, eventually stopped by Trump and completed by Biden.
America has gained nothing, and the Afghan people will regress to a level not far above where they were at the start of this Century.
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The Pentagon has admitted perhaps as many as 250 Americans who wanted to
leave Kabul are stranded there, as the US flew its final evacuation from Afghanistan
and ended its 20-year military presence.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-military-afghanistan-exit-civilians-b1911399.html
Americans are losing faith in Biden on many issues
http://www.cnn.com/2021/08/28/politics/biden-afghanistan-polling-analysis/index.html
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Biden's speech today called the mission an extraordinary success while blaming Trump and others.
Private groups of ex special operations personnel says Biden's State Department blocking their attempts to rescue more Americans. State Department telling bordering countries not to let them use their airbases to evacuate Americans.
http://twitter.com/SebGorka/status/1432718955576270862?s=20
Father of dead soldier said Biden looked down at his watch for each of the 13 soldiers that came out of the plane.
Social media blocking mother of dead soldier from complaining about Biden. I guess media and social media are going back to silencing people they disagree with and making Biden look good. Propaganda on the rise and 1st Amendment is being taken away from us.
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Biden's speech today called the mission an extraordinary success while blaming Trump and others.
GQ beat Biden to this news story a couple of days ago. That GQ could be a journalist.
Private groups of ex special operations personnel says Biden's State Department blocking their attempts to rescue more Americans. State Department telling bordering countries not to let them use their airbases to evacuate Americans.
Fox showed about 15 video clips of Biden saying, "Leave no one behind"
Father of dead soldier said Biden looked down at his watch for each of the 13 soldiers that came out of the plane.
Evidently a technique to prevent nodding off to sleep.
Social media blocking mother of dead soldier from complaining about Biden. I guess media and social media are going back to silencing people they disagree with and making Biden look good. Propaganda on the rise and 1st Amendment is being taken away from us.
Let me guess, Twitter?
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Let me guess, Twitter?
I know it was Facebook and Instagram. Not sure if she posts at twitter. Here's her letter that someone screenshot. I don't see any reason for it to be deleted. The college dropouts working as fact checkers on social media probably didn't want it to go viral. They didn't just censor her, they suspended her accounts. Millions of people's accounts have been deleted in the last 8 months. This is abolishing the 1st Amendment, modern day book burning and the erasing of history all rolled into one.
http://t.me/joeoltmann/1134
http://t.me/patriotstreetfighter/1700
Fox showed about 15 video clips of Biden saying, "Leave no one behind"
Here's a Mar 2020 tweet of Biden saying that. He truly is a man of words. Too bad he's not a man of his words.
http://t.me/praying_medic/4737
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Biden's speech today called the mission an extraordinary success...
Well..it was [at least for the Taliban] (http://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/Smileys/DarkB/rolleyes.gif)
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Well..it was [at least for the Taliban] (http://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/Smileys/DarkB/rolleyes.gif)
Taliban parade as Biden defends US pullout The Taliban Wednesday paraded some of the military hardware they captured during their takeover of Afghanistan, hours after US President Joe Biden defended his decision to end the two-decade war.
The Islamist hardliners are celebrating Monday's final withdrawal of US troops as a historic victory after taking control of Afghanistan last month following an astonishing two-week offensive that capped a simmering 20-year insurgency.
On Wednesday a long line of green Humvees and armoured fighting vehicles drove in single file along a highway outside Kandahar -- the spiritual birthplace of the militant movement -- many with white-and-black Taliban flags attached to aerials, an AFP journalist saw.
In footage posted on a pro-Taliban account of the build-up to the parade, a helicopter flew overhead trailing the Taliban's standard as fighters wrapped in headscarves waved beneath.
At least one Black Hawk helicopter has been seen flying over Kandahar in recent days, suggesting someone from the former Afghan army was at the controls as the Taliban lack pilots.
MORE...
http://today.rtl.lu/news/world/a/1779608.html
I wonder how many of the Afghan army joined the Taliban to avoid retribution?
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Whoo! Must be free brown cookie day for the 'Pee'-hackers!!
Awesome evac operation, I must say...122,000 evacuated, and I know, Phackers are moaning about those 100+ left behind that couldn't for some odd reason, get to KIA for the past 17 months.
But, thanks for the help of the Taliban, many Americans and legal residents we secretly escorted from a pre-agreed rendezvous points around the city, and unto an established passage into the airport, away & separately from the crowd into the hands of waiting US troops.
There will be ensuing reliance upon the Taliban for continued facilitation of US citizens and green card holders to leave Afghanistan safely. The hope is the Taliban are also true to their word that there would be no retribution brought to its people, and all those wishing to leave, will be allowed to do so. The latter remains to be seen.
I'm happy this silly war is finally ended! Congratulations on an incredible, unprecedented evacuation operation never before seen in this massive scale!
I'm happy too there was never any need for any urban warfare, Mogadishu-style and all that silly jazz! :P
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(http://a57.foxnews.com/static.foxnews.com/foxnews.com/content/uploads/2021/08/918/516/2CARTOON-8.30.21-8.30.21-8.jpg?ve=1&tl=1)
(http://a57.foxnews.com/static.foxnews.com/foxnews.com/content/uploads/2021/08/918/516/2cartoon-8.17.21.8.17.21.8.jpg?ve=1&tl=1)
(http://a57.foxnews.com/static.foxnews.com/foxnews.com/content/uploads/2021/08/918/516/2cartoon-8.16.21.-8.jpg?ve=1&tl=1)
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Taliban parade as Biden defends US pullout
The Taliban should not be celebrating. The nation they now command is about to enter a humanitarian crisis.
We know about supply chain disruptions in the US due to COVID. Imagine the chain problems in Afghanistan. This will be experienced mostly in urban areas. The rural areas where people live on $2/day will hopefully see little change.
That is why Trump and Biden both wanted some form of government sharing between the Taliban and the former government. Some sense of order could have been maintained under a shared arrangement.
Now almost everything will come to a halt because the Taliban wanted complete power, and took it without a fight. I do not predict a Kmer Rouge emptying of the cities, yet some human suffering is inevitable as a new form of governance unfolds.
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Taliban about to announce new government/cabinet with no women in it :D Like a breath of fresh air, now why can't we have it like that :)
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Taliban about to announce new government/cabinet with no women in it :D
Like a breath of fresh air, now why can't we have it like that :)
(http://www.howtogeek.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/01/dont-feed-the-troll.jpg?trim=1,1&bg-color=000&pad=1,1)
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The Taliban should not be celebrating. The nation they now command is about to enter a humanitarian crisis.
Who are you to say what the Taliban should/should not be doing? They have ridded their nation of US troops, and hopefully interference.
We shall see if we start attempting to disrupt their country with sanctions. I'm sure they will have enough issues without us making matters worse.
We know about supply chain disruptions in the US due to COVID. Imagine the chain problems in Afghanistan. This will be experienced mostly in urban areas. The rural areas where people live on $2/day will hopefully see little change.
The supply chain is already causing issues here in the states. A record 44 ships were parked in front of the port here yesterday. Not enough labor of course to unload them fast enough. We have our own problems, no need to fret over Afghanistan, they can figure it out themselves. Can we figure out our own issues?
Fathertime!
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Although direct evacuations are over, and others should be ongoing for some time to come, maybe a little reflection is needed as to what happened, by design or not, as far as the Afghan people are concerned.
A small, but significant portion of the population received an education. A huge accomplishment.
Many women were educated. An extraordinary accomplishment.
65% literacy among the younger generation. Wow..
A brief sense of human and women's rights passed on. A huge accomplishment.
Diverse peoples from many nations got to know each other, whether at the markets in Kabul, schools, and military. Friendships were formed. A huge accomplishment.
Some language barriers were overcome. A huge accomplishment.
Communications, and even the internet, introduced to many. A huge accomplishment.
Exchanges of culture, music and arts. A huge accomplishment.
Introduction of other forms of governance. A huge accomplishment.
Many thousands of their citizens now live in other countries, many will remain active in the interests of their homeland. A huge accomplishment.
An otherwise ignored nation was put on the world map, gaining international attention. A huge accomplishment.
New diplomatic channels emerging from many nations with new leaders there. A huge accomplishment.
Sure, all the above regards relatively few, there will be some steps back now, some limitations that may be severe and difficult, even violent, but seeds have been planted and at least some reassurances by their new leaders that some things may 'stick'; like education for women albeit segregated, almost unheard of decades ago. Actually a lot, unheard of decades ago from their POV and many things even the Taliban cannot ignore or completely suppress.
Like any other nation, lasting change will take time, and time passes slowly in those parts of the world. But the process has been given a boost, even if it doesn't quench our desires for instant satisfaction. The international community has leverage and can help if deserved. The Taliban got what they wanted, so now it's up to them to prove they're up to the task, and up to the people of Afghanistan to adapt, and change from within if they so desire, on their timeline and not ours.
I hope we learned a lot as well. The toll was high, high enough to remember for some time to come.
With all the doom and gloom being forecasted, all the recriminations, misgivings and blame being passed about, thought I would just throw this hasty post out as food for thought.
:clapping:
Good post, BC!
Yeah, this must be more than an awakening for the 9/11 Afghan generation who had never known the Taliban/Sharia law rule. Wishing them the very best life forward!!!
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I'm happy this silly war is finally ended! Congratulations on an incredible, unprecedented evacuation operation never before seen in this massive scale!
If that type of narrative were to hit the public news stations it would ruin the conservative phony narrative...which is what they actually care about more than anything else.
Fathertime!
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If that type of narrative were to hit the public news stations it would ruin the conservative phony narrative...which is what they actually care about more than anything else.
Fathertime!
The country is deeply divided, FT. What happened, and what we all laid witnessed to the past decade, more importantly the past 5 years, had made this divide literally unrepairable I'm afraid.
As for Afghanistan, hindsight is 100%. Had Bush not deny and forego the Taliban total surrender back in late 2001 since we not only decimated the Al Qaeda network in Afghanistan and knew Osama had already fled the country, and actually found the need to work with them, we would never have seen nearly the mess we have today.
Of course, had Trump had the oatmeal between his ears to demand inclusion of the Afghan government in the stupid deal, we would never had to lay witness to the massive violence against Afghans that follow, and likely the additional deaths of the 13 soldiers.
True to form, and to prove how intensely moronic Trump had become: He said two days ago (http://www.occidentaldissent.com/2021/08/30/president-blumpf-calls-for-reinvading-afghanistan/) we should reinvade Afghanistan to retrieve all the equipment we left behind if the Taliban refuses to give them up. That we should bomb the crap out of the country!!!
:ROFL:
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(http://www.howtogeek.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/01/dont-feed-the-troll.jpg?trim=1,1&bg-color=000&pad=1,1)
That's harsh Bill, very, very, harsh.
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That's harsh Bill, very, very, harsh.
You were hoping for a reaction
I didn't want to turn this into a beat up Trench thread maybe
we side stepped it this time.
Here is a cheeky GIF of Daryl Hanna in Splash (but don't look at it.)
http://tinyurl.com/2txsm9bs
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As for Afghanistan, hindsight is 100%. Had Bush not deny and forego the Taliban total surrender back in late 2001 since we not only decimated the Al Qaeda network in Afghanistan and knew Osama had already fled the country, and actually found the need to work with them, we would never have seen nearly the mess we have today.
Same as my point with my first post in this thread - namely for the past 20 years we should have continued to work with the many warlords rather than try to create a centralized government.
The Taliban controlled Kabul in 2001 and refused to give us OBL. So, we could not do in 2001 what you suggest, namely work with a central Taliban.
Yet within Afghanistan were many warlords also not wanting to be subjected to Taliban rule. In fact, a few of these warlords in NE Afghanistan formed the ground forces to attack Taliban positions in coordination with US airpower. This is akin to Trump's destruction of ISIS in Syria where in short order our Kurdish allies working with US units surrounded Baghdai and killed him.
This warlord approach in 2001-02 did not kill the Taliban leaders yet pushed them into Pakistan and remote enclaves. There they rebuilt and grew to fight NATO and Afghan forces on a growing basis. Meanwhile Bush-Obama tried to build a democracy complete with a centralized military.
Of course, had Trump had the oatmeal between his ears to demand inclusion of the Afghan government in the stupid deal....
Trump sought in 2020 a bipartisan government to allow an organized, secure withdrawal of Americans and military.
...we would never had to lay witness to the massive violence against Afghans that follow, and likely the additional deaths of the 13 soldiers.
"Massive violence?" Just wait.
And the deaths of 13 soldiers? Their deaths are on Biden's hands due to his dumb "battlefield" decisions in executing the withdrawal. Very few people believe their deaths were due to Trump's decision. Trump got the ball rolling towards what you wanted - end of America's participation in the Afghan war.
True to form, and to prove how intensely moronic Trump had become:
Don't concern yourself with Trump. We have here in Florida better candidates than Trump.
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You were hoping for a reaction
I didn't want to turn this into a beat up Trench thread maybe
we side stepped it this time.
Here is a cheeky GIF of Daryl Hanna in Splash (but don't look at it.)
http://tinyurl.com/2txsm9bs
Not at all, just refreshing to see an alternate way things can be, there's just so much emphasis on putting the female up there these days but I think it just causes imbalance between the sexes and more unhappiness. Not an attempt to troll at all.
Daryl Hannah was quite hot back in the day though I always thought she had a slight mannish look in her face.
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Gator,
IIRC even the Taliban has not one, but very many heads. In your opinion was talking to one slightly bigger head back then the same as talking to all? Were some heads more supportive of ISIS and others not?
As for today, that may be one of the challenges the Taliban has is being able to talk, and govern as one.
I mention this after reading GQ's and your posts, maybe something not factored in the convo?
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BC, your questions expand the complexity of the situation. I do not intend to suggest this is too complicated to analyze. IMO it is rather simple - the "strongman" will rule in a setting of tribalism and religious extremism.
IIRC even the Taliban has not one, but very many heads.
Exactly. The Taliban has several factions scattered around Afghanistan and in Pakistan. Their public photo ops such as the one in the Presidential Palace show motley group of leaders, not a dominant single figure. And that particular "leadership team" would be just the faction(s) that occupied Kabul. And that meeting was labeled just as handing over the Palace, and not the "power." There have been no photos of taking over power.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BQhRsR7UdWw (16:30 mark)
OTOH, the Taliban negotiated a "peace" agreement with Trump, called by some a surrender. That says central leadership.
Regardless of how the Taliban is organized, Afghanistan itself remains a tribal society. The largest tribe is the Pashtun, and most Taliban are Pashtun. Here comes the rub: the Pashtun live under a code that predates Islam (Google "Pashtunwali"). Will there be a conflict between religious extremism and tribalism?
In your opinion was talking to one slightly bigger head back then the same as talking to all?
"Back then" being 2001 when the US asked Afghanistan to give OBL to us? I don't know if we talked to the elusive Omar.
Were some heads more supportive of ISIS and others not?
ISIS was not present in 2001, but of course Al Qaeda the parent of ISIS was firmly entrenched in the eastern mountainous region bordering Pakistan. IMO that would not have happened without broad Taliban support. In the pursuit of OBL we fought both the Taliban and Al Qaeda.
As for today, that may be one of the challenges the Taliban has is being able to talk, and govern as one.
The Doha agreement says the Taliban can reach international agreements. In addition, the Taliban demonstrated some sense of central leadership by not attacking Americans over the past year, and particularly the past couple of weeks when we were fish in a barrel.
OTOH I ask myself if centralized government is necessary in Afghanistan, a tribal society with 14 ethnic groups? I would imagine negotiating mineral deals with the Chinese would be done by local warlord and the local Qadi (Sharia magistrate) for each mine, with participation by the top Taliban leadership. With whom would an international aid agency negotiate - maybe just the city where the project is planned? But WFP food trucks would need to pass through other tribes. Of course decisions about stoning, decapitation and dismemberment will be made at the local level based on the local interpretaion of Sharia.
I do not intend to suggest this is too complicated to analyze. It is rather simple - the "strongman" will rule. I have no idea who will be the strongman. And I laugh about whether they will have rule of law.
I mention this after reading GQ's and your posts, maybe something not factored in the convo?
I am unsure of GQ's point and how it supports his claim that Trump is responsible for the deaths of 13 service members. The discussion between GQ and me seems to be one of talking past each other.
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I am unsure of GQ's point and how it supports his claim that Trump is responsible for the deaths of 13 service members. The discussion between GQ and me seems to be one of talking past each other.
Not really. One of us simply refuses to exercise petty partisanship in this matter. Too many lives at stake. I’ve said more than a few times, we can simply agree to disagree.
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Several California Public School Students Are Still Trapped In Afghanistan
http://www.npr.org/2021/09/01/1033294030/american-students-afghanistan-sacramento-san-juan-district
Six in 10 US voters think America has gone seriously off track: polls
Only 12 percent said they “strongly approve” and 18 percent that they “somewhat
approve” of the Biden administration’s handling of Afghanistan.
http://nypost.com/2021/09/01/majority-of-us-voters-think-america-has-gone-off-track-poll/
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Service dogs abandoned in Afghanistan while the last few planes had room to take them. Dogs are probably running loose or shot by now.
http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2021/08/us-contract-working-dogs-abandoned-kabul-airport-last-plane-left/
Text messages and emails from military commanders complaining they are abandoning Americans at the gate.
http://justthenews.com/government/security/were-americans-people-screaming-outside-gates-kabul-airport-turned-away
US Dep Assistant Sec of Defense gave an interview claiming we had a drone locked on to the terrorist bomber that killed our troops but was denied permission to fire. With dozens of troops killed and injured being huddled together after intel reports terrorist attack immanent, it seems like they wanted this to happen. Only ONE person was fired over this mess and that was a Marine Lt Colonel who wanted senior officers to be accountable.
http://twitter.com/BonillaJL/status/1432776611510767617
Call transcripts from a month ago shows Biden asking Afghan prez a favor in exchange for military aid. No problem, the troops would be happy to risk their lives so the big guy gets 10% of any deal.
Republicans held a moment of silence at Congress today. No Democrats participated. Speaker of the House Pelosi and Dems blocked the reading of the 13 service members lives.
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I'm in total locked step with this guy!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UjXjkEG91L4
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Pretty illuminating debate as to whether or not the withdrawal was successful. Listen to both sides of the argument being made. Now listen when Ms. Farah was confronted with a very obvious question By Ryan Grimm to challenge her point. ~ If you feel the withdrawal we witnessed was a failure in protecting a 2-mile pathway from the embassy to the airport, then how do you think we can fare better protecting a 'lone' 40-mile highway to Bagram from Kabul?
Her answer:
"Oh, I'm sure they would've figured out an operational way to handle that" (pp) LMAO!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xPygAF4nqGY
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Service dogs abandoned in Afghanistan while the last few planes had room to take them. Dogs are probably running loose or shot by now.
Do find out which defense contractors were involved and responsible and let me know. They were not military service dogs. I'd really like to know, as UK flew out 200 dogs and cats from a Kabul shelter.
This contractor will simply write off a million bucks from their profit sheet and taxes as lost equipment. Maybe even claim the loss against DOD.
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I’ve said more than a few times, we can simply agree to disagree.
That would be appropriate. Yet an "agree to disagree" is disingenuous when accusing, in the same breath, the other of "petty partisanship."
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Appropriate actually. If you browsed the entire thread, it won't be too hard to notice which sides hurled daily petty partisanship links, aka fake news.
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Appropriate actually. If you browsed the entire thread, it won't be too hard to notice which sides hurled daily petty partisanship links, aka fake news.
1. Few links over the past few years have been devoid of partisanship.
2. The diasagreement between you and me did not involve links IIRC. My opinion of blaming Biden vs. your opinion of blaming Trump.
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If you feel the withdrawal we witnessed was a failure in protecting a 2-mile pathway from the embassy to the airport, then how do you think we can fare better protecting a 'lone' 40-mile highway to Bagram from Kabul?
Her answer:
"Oh, I'm sure they would've figured out an operational way to handle that" (pp) LMAO!
The woman sounds just like almost everyone else - she has no military training or experience. But that does not stop her.
To contrast the two airfields, break down the mission for the marines and army:
1. Protecting routes of access to the airport. Keep in mind most of the 100,00+ evacuees did not come from the Embassy (which is 3 miles from KIA, not 2). More important, providing security for roads in open terrain is easier than for urban roads bordered by buildings and with road intersections every 200 yds or so. We can thank the Taliban for protecting these routes.
2. Establishing a defense perimeter to defend the airport from attacks. Bagram was our main military base, not just where we hangared planes and copters. It had extrordinary sgtructural defenses, many added after a suicide attack over 10 years ago. Supposedly it already had three perimeter rings with infratstructure such as barricades, bunkers, concertina, etc. Eyes in the sky can detect human movement in such open terrain. While at KIA, humans surrounded he airport gates at all times.
3. Screening evacuees - the 13 service members were killed at the actual gate to KIA, not along the access roads. They were involved in screening for admission to the airport the crowds of Afghans who had flocked at the airport gate, some standing in an open sewer.. Bagram's screening locations had been established, were better protected, and the perimeter would be firther out, not the airport gate.
At either Bagram or KIA we were vulnerable if the Taliban decided to attack. We were more vulnerable at KIA. Fortunately the Taliban kept their word about not attacking. The videos showed the military planes still fired their protective flares when taking off from KIA, just in case the Taliban had let some comabatants thru with ground-to-air missiles.
Almost every military person I have heard has criticized Biden about a) withdrawing troops before evacuating civilians and b) choosing KIA over Bagram. Two have not - Ausin and Milley. Why is that?
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1. Few links over the past few years have been devoid of partisanship.
2. The diasagreement between you and me did not involve links IIRC. My opinion of blaming Biden vs. your opinion of blaming Trump.
But you moved with the same reasoning as those propelled by fake news. >>Bagram air field is where 4,700 prisoners came from<<. When in fact it was from Pul e Charkhi, not Parwan prison.
The woman sounds just like almost everyone else - she has no military training or experience. But that does not stop her.
To contrast the two airfields, break down the mission for the marines and army:
1. Protecting routes of access to the airport. Keep in mind most of the 100,00+ evacuees did not come from the Embassy (which is 3 miles from KIA, not 2). More important, providing security for roads in open terrain is easier than for urban roads bordered by buildings and with road intersections every 200 yds or so. We can thank the Taliban for protecting these routes.
2. Establishing a defense perimeter to defend the airport from attacks. Bagram was our main military base, not just where we hangared planes and copters. It had extrordinary sgtructural defenses, many added after a suicide attack over 10 years ago. Supposedly it already had three perimeter rings with infratstructure such as barricades, bunkers, concertina, etc. Eyes in the sky can detect human movement in such open terrain. While at KIA, humans surrounded he airport gates at all times.
3. Screening evacuees - the 13 service members were killed at the actual gate to KIA, not along the access roads. They were involved in screening for admission to the airport the crowds of Afghans who had flocked at the airport gate, some standing in an open sewer.. Bagram's screening locations had been established, were better protected, and the perimeter would be firther out, not the airport gate.
At either Bagram or KIA we were vulnerable if the Taliban decided to attack. We were more vulnerable at KIA. Fortunately the Taliban kept their word about not attacking. The videos showed the military planes still fired their protective flares when taking off from KIA, just in case the Taliban had let some comabatants thru with ground-to-air missiles.
You're still not seeing two very important points.
1. It isn't about the dangers with the Talibans, but ISIS-K. Without dealing with hypotheticals at this point, if ISIS-K found it 'easy' to walk a suicide bomber at the gate of KIA the way it did, do you honestly believe it would not have happened at Bagram?
2. All things considered, in excess of 120K persons were evacuated well within the August 31st deadline, which even yourself contemplated would be a challenge. But under Biden's leadership, that 'challenge was met hands down.
Your argument about this before was the perils of urban warfare. Yet now you moved the premise of your argument again. Matter of fact, that point was hugely debunked because the Talibans were actually instrumental in safely escorting Americans into the hands of the US troops at the airport. Hell, the cover and confines of these streets likely contributed to that safe passage. Which, I would think would hardly be the same on the 40-mile stretch of a highway from Kabul, or worse, elsewhere.
Almost every military person I have heard has criticized Biden about a) withdrawing troops before evacuating civilians and b) choosing KIA over Bagram. Two have not - Ausin and Milley. Why is that?
Funny. I was almost convinced you always knew what our 'military's' real motives are/were in these global conflicts. Now you seem to be saying they actually have a moral consideration how we should end these wars? You're now surprised they're passing the buck? THEY ARE part of the problem, if not THE problem in all our global incursions.
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Funny. I was almost convinced you always knew what our 'military's' real motives are/were in these global conflicts. Now you seem to be saying they actually have a moral consideration how we should end these wars? You're now surprised they're passing the buck? THEY ARE part of the problem, if not THE problem in all our global incursions.
Hooray! Let's up we can somehow keep our large snout in our own business/country now. Wasted trillions in recent decades, when the money could have been spent here at home. China has produced goods for the world, and we have produced resentment from the world. We have aqueducts to build, forests underbrushes to be cleared, fires to be fought, modern factories to be built. A zillion other things. Dropping bombs, firing weaponry, and marching aren't as important!
Fathertime!
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We've been landed with up to around 20,000 Afghans as a result of this farce. Our government seems all to happy to have these Afghans here despite our country's population getting no say in the matter. We had no say in whether to get involved in Afghanistan in the first place. So that's 20,000 Afghans on top of the 300,000 plus Hong Kongers that the government have also arbitrarily given the option of citizenship and residence here. With housing in this country already about full up it's a bad move in my opinion. I don't see the Afghans behaving themselves and social issues & crimes are likely to mount, think drug gangs against other ethnic groups etc. Overall these migrants will make Britain less of a country that the indigenous population can recognise and become more of an incoherent mess.
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A key example is Bagram air base. It should have been preserved until the bitter end.
Often overlooked, abandoning Bagram included releasing 4,800 captured ISIS and al queda fighters incarcerated there. All are finding their way back to rebuild thier movements. Some would welcome a suicide mission. In other words, we need to get Americans out of Afghanistan ASAP.
OTOH, I am not sure a woke military would make competent anti-terrorist fighters.
I still have trouble believing our military planners are this stupid.
Some of the current generals should have resigned before working with Biden's flawed withdrawal plan...
August 31 will be an interesting day to learn if the air lift is as effective as the Biden admin claims.
You would understand if 1) you have some experience of walking around in centuries-old bazaars, souks, alleys and dwellings of Middle East cities and 2) you had some training in military defensive strategies. It is well accepted that urban combat is the most dangerous (e. g., Mogadishu).
Life outside the rope!
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GQ,
You keep repeating the same opinions about military decisions in Afghanistan even though you have never served in the military nor ever traveled to Afghanistan. Unlike you I have done both. It does not make me an expert, yet for sure I know far more than you as demonstrated in your lame arguments vs. the opinions offerred by those who have served.
Yesterday I tried once again to discuss how the Afghan situation differs from your perceptions. Within an hour you responded, repeating the same malarkey. I decided that was enough, and in an "agree to disagree" style I did not waste my time by responding.
My decision to be silent was not enough for you, so not seeing any response, you felt compelled to spend considerable time analyzing my many posts and compiling them in another post. You are responding to "phantom" posts.
YOU SAY I LIVE OUTSIDE THE ROPE. HA! HA! One thing for sure: I AM LIVING IN YOUR HEAD SO MUCH I SHOULD PAY RENT.
Not my intent considering I avoid curmudgeons.
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GQ,
You keep repeating the same opinions about military decisions in Afghanistan even though you have never served in the military nor ever traveled to Afghanistan. Unlike you I have done both. It does not make me an expert, yet for sure I know far more than you as demonstrated in your lame arguments vs. the opinions offerred by those who have served.
I thought you'd be more composed than this, Gator. Considering your blatantly erroneous assessment of the situation as it was unfolding, despite your insinuation having the benefit of having served in the military (I thought you said you never saw combat? Weren't you a cook?) is fairly dubious, Gator. You were *off* from the get-go!
There's a lesson to be learned there somewhere, no?
Yesterday I tried once again to discuss how the Afghan situation differs from your perceptions. Within an hour you responded, repeating the same malarkey. I decided that was enough, and in an "agree to disagree" style I did not waste my time by responding.
Yet here you are. You can't help yourself, can you?
My decision to be silent was not enough for you, so not seeing any response, you felt compelled to spend considerable time analyzing my many posts and compiling them in another post. You are responding to "phantom" posts.
YOU SAY I LIVE OUTSIDE THE ROPE. HA! HA! One thing for sure: I AM LIVING IN YOUR HEAD SO MUCH I SHOULD PAY RENT.
Not my intent considering I avoid curmudgeons.
OY! There you go again. You could at the least be original. Assuming I have you 'living in my head' with your *expert military analytical ability* displayed in this thread is hilariously riveting!
Great sense of humor, Gator. I like it!
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Bagdad Bob AKA Joe Biden has decided that his only recourse after his repeated incompetence, mismanagement and ineptitude on the Afghanistan withdrawal is to brazenly lie about it and
claim success at every level.
Here is a link to the transcript for those who would like to see what he said.
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2021/08/31/transcript-what-biden-said-today-afghanistan/5672669001/
Elected Democrats think that ordinary voters are stupid which is one of the reasons
they unabashedly lie about themselves, their programs and their opponents. I don't
think the electorate is nearly as stupid as the Dem's think.
This poll number will send Democrats into a panic
http://www.cnn.com/2021/09/02/politics/biden-approval-midterms-democrats/index.html
Biden lies through his teeth, fails to fess up to Afghanistan shambles for third time
http://nypost.com/2021/08/20/biden-lies-through-his-teeth-fails-to-fess-up-to-afghanistan-shambles-for-third-time/
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Joe Biden’s call to Afghan prez is an impeachable offense
http://nypost.com/2021/09/01/joe-bidens-call-to-afghan-president-is-impeachable-devine/
The Afghanistan fiasco might get Biden impeached
http://news.yahoo.com/afghanistan-fiasco-might-biden-impeached-155947685.html
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I really do wish he runs for president in 2024. (http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/what-polls-say-about-gop-support-for-trump-amid-2024-presidential-run-rumors/ar-AAO4Ois?ocid=mailsignout&li=BBnbfcL)
If he does, he should run on his platform (http://www.occidentaldissent.com/2021/08/30/president-blumpf-calls-for-reinvading-afghanistan/). Love to see how far it takes him. Better yet his supporters.
(The actual page where where he made this silly statement was taken down, likely by his campaign as it was so inane!)
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...despite your insinuation having the benefit of having served in the military
I do not claim any benefit. I claim experience and knowledge from four years of ROTC classes, four months of training in infantry and engineering, e. g., bridges, explosives,.... Then one year in Vietnam and 8 months at an infantry tyraining cventer (Ft. Lewis). That pales when compared to today's military talking heads.
I thought you said you never saw combat? Weren't you a cook?
To be precise I was a green lieutenant with a construction engineering MOS. Missions were building roads, airfields, bridge recon, etc. I never fired my weapon in combat and rarely carried it. I never saw live Viet Cong, and received fire only twice, both from a far distance. My Bronze Star Medal certificate reads "ground operations against hostile forces." In my brigade we lost more men from accidents than hostilities. I operated totally in defensive positions, usually with a ROK (White Horse Division) perimeter - ruthless, scorched earth soldiers.
There's a lesson to be learned there somewhere, no?
I learned I loved the tropics and the culture, compelling me to do much international travel over my long life .
Yet here you are. You can't help yourself, can you?
My post discussed you, not Afghanistan, especially your doggedly insulting posting style, certainly devoid of fellowship.
There you go again. You could at least be original. Assuming I have you 'living in my head' with your *expert military analytical ability* displayed in this thread is hilariously riveting!
Original? You are the one doing reruns when I ignored you.
Great sense of humor, Gator. I like it!
Trying to pull my leg? In my 18 years of RW posting, I have never seen you touch humor, not even close.
We all should say, "So what!" Each of us has a different personality, different situation, and different goals. Over those 18 years you have been a very active poster with special insights to share. I found many of them to contain valuable information for those seeking RW. That is one of your strengths. I recognize your active participation is helping to keep the lights on at RWD. And I appreciate that fact for the rare occasions when I show up.
Have a good day!
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Better yet his supporters.
You sound like a woman scorned (like Ann Coulter)
http://www.businessinsider.com/ann-coulter-praised-biden-afghanistan-withdrawal-called-trump-wuss-2021-9
I hope that Trump doesn't run again. I would like to see Ron DeSantis, Rand Paul
or Ted Cruz as the GOP president.
For all of the Moderates out there who think that Trump got treated poorly by
the media because he was Trump. I am telling you that for the left wing activist
media this is the new normal. Democrats in the house will repeatedly impeach the
next GOP president for nothing the second that they have a one member majority
and that is the new normal too.
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You sound like a woman scorned (like Ann Coulter)
Speaking of someone sounding like a woman scorned.
:devil:
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You sound like a woman scorned (like Ann Coulter)
http://www.businessinsider.com/ann-coulter-praised-biden-afghanistan-withdrawal-called-trump-wuss-2021-9
Was Coulter scorned? She is doing the scorning.
For all of the Moderates out there who think that Trump got treated poorly by
the media because he was Trump. I am telling you that for the left wing activist
media this is the new normal. Democrats in the house will repeatedly impeach the
next GOP president for nothing the second that they have a one member majority
and that is the new normal too.
This is conservative paranoia. It is designed for low information voters, to frighten them into voting against what may be in their best interest. Sometimes it sways enough votes to make a difference but in 2021 the republican base needs to make up a lot of ground.
Fathertime!
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http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=24519.msg559061#msg559061
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Democrats in the house will repeatedly impeach the
next GOP president for nothing the second that they have a one member majority
and that is the new normal too.
This is conservative paranoia. It is designed for low information voters, to frighten them.....
No it's not. It is actual truth. Donald Trump was slated for impeachment the minute the Clinton crowd discovered that they were not in.
'Russian collusion' seemed to be a conveniently/ likely charge and this dragged on for 4 sickening years [even though] the Demoncrats anticipated a majority in 2018 to achieve their goal.
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posted in Kammy's thread instead of here
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No it's not. It is actual truth. Donald Trump was slated for impeachment the minute the Clinton crowd discovered that they were not in.
'Russian collusion' seemed to be a conveniently/ likely charge and this dragged on for 4 sickening years [even though] the Demoncrats anticipated a majority in 2018 to achieve their goal.
Trump is ONE example. There was no serious impeachment threats for either of the Bushes or Reagan. I think it is conservative paranoia, which is a cornerstone of how conservative votes are garnered.
Fathertime!
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Trump is ONE example. There was no serious impeachment threats for either of the Bushes or Reagan. I think it is conservative paranoia, which is a cornerstone of how conservative votes are garnered.
Go do your research next time (http://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/Smileys/DarkB/rolleyes.gif)
Efforts to impeach George W. Bush.... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Efforts_to_impeach_George_W._Bush
H.Res.86 - Impeaching George Herbert Walker Bush, President of the United States, of high crimes and misdemeanors...
http://www.congress.gov/bill/102nd-congress/house-resolution/86
A resolution to impeach Reagen was obvious political suicide.
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Go do your research next time (http://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/Smileys/DarkB/rolleyes.gif)
Efforts to impeach George W. Bush.... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Efforts_to_impeach_George_W._Bush
H.Res.86 - Impeaching George Herbert Walker Bush, President of the United States, of high crimes and misdemeanors...
http://www.congress.gov/bill/102nd-congress/house-resolution/86
A resolution to impeach Reagen was obvious political suicide.
As I stated nothing serious. Similar to those trying to call for Biden's impeachment now.
Fathertime!
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To help commemorate the 20th anniversary of 9/11, Netflix just release TURNING POINT, a 6-episode documentary of events leading to, the fateful day and the aftermath of this dreadful day.
From the presidencies of Reagan to Biden. An in depth look at the post-Soviet occupation, jihadists, war on terror, OBL, patriot act, habeas corpus, Guantanamo, Afghanistan, Talibans, the ills of the Doha peace deal, all the way to the withdrawal just concluded. It also gave a perspective why some Afghan soldier turned ‘blue on green’ against us.
Roughly 6 hours long 😱
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Just heard on Chris Wallace this morning from a US Senator, that Taliban is holding several planes (maybe 6) hostage and won't allow take off.
These planes contain some US citizens and a lot of Afgans.
Apparently the Talibans demanding USA recognize them fully as the lawful government.
http://thehill.com/homenews/sunday-talk-shows/570896-mccaul-says-taliban-wont-let-Americans-leave-from-Afghanistan-airport
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As I stated nothing serious. Similar to those trying to call for Biden's impeachment now.
the call for Biden's impeachment
Oh do the back peddle now. I knew you would....because you always type first.
Everyone knows whoever has said the I word about Biden will be shunned by twitter, facebook, the press and everything else.
Joey could drop his pants and moon the camera and the Dumbocrats would say that was the most incredible demonstration of strength and courage they have ever seen.
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Oh do the back peddle now. I knew you would....because you always type first.
Everyone knows whoever has said the I word about Biden will be shunned by twitter, facebook, the press and everything else.
Joey could drop his pants and moon the camera and the Dumbocrats would say that was the most incredible demonstration of strength and courage they have ever seen.
Pretend there was backpeddling on going on...if that makes you happy. I'll stand by my statements. Conservatives are in the minority and will try all dirty tricks legal/illegal to maintain any position they can.
Many will call for biden's impeachment, but it won't be taken seriously because he doesn't warrant it. All your whinning about facebook, twitter, press is just because they are not reporting the distorted way you are trying unsuccessfully to demand.
Fathertime!
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Edit by Anonmod
Meanwhile back to the topic-------
A pregnant woman named Nasria, a California (http://www.foxnews.com/category/us/us-regions/west/california) native, flew to Afghanistan (http://www.foxnews.com/category/world/conflicts/afghanistan) in June to visit family and get married. As of early September, she remained one of the estimated 100 to 200 Americans left behind in the chaotic withdrawal of U.S. forces, according to a report.
Now that the U.S. military (http://www.foxnews.com/category/us/military) is gone, the Taliban (http://www.foxnews.com/world/taliban-special-forces-bring-abrupt-end-to-womens-protest)is "hunting Americans," she told the Voice of America.
"I think to myself, ‘Am I going to make it home? Am I going to end up living here? Am I going to end up dying here? What’s going to happen?'" Nasria, 25, who asked to be referred to only by her first name for safety reasons, said.
"Apparently they’re [the Taliban] going door-to-door … trying to see if anybody has a blue passport," she said.
She said the U.S. State Department told her "You will get picked up" after the flight she booked to return to the U.S. was canceled.
She said she and her husband tried to get to the specified location for 12 to 13 hours but the Taliban blocked them at gunpoint even as she showed them her U.S. passport.
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/taliban-hunting-americans-california-afghanistan
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Apparently it's going to cost the UK government £2.5bn to settle the near 20,000 Afghans in the UK. 15,000 were brought over in the airlift, another 2,000 in the few months before plus approx 1,000 since 2003. Possibly a few more on the way by foot. Just think if we had held on until a peace deal was secure even if it meant a renewed conflict for a while it would have probably cost us less. We had the weaponry to kick the Taliban's arse but we allowed ourselves to run in fear of a renewed conflict.
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Apparently it's going to cost the UK government £2.5bn to settle the near 20,000 Afghans in the UK. 15,000 were brought over in the airlift, another 2,000 in the few months before plus approx 1,000 since 2003. Possibly a few more on the way by foot. Just think if we had held on until a peace deal was secure even if it meant a renewed conflict for a while it would have probably cost us less. We had the weaponry to kick the Taliban's arse but we allowed ourselves to run in fear of a renewed conflict.
You vastly over estimate the capability and capacity of the UK to conduct military operations on the scale needed to defeat the Taliban.
The Soviet Union failed in their 9 year occupation, the US/UK + NATO failed in the 20 years of occupation fighting against an insurgency that simply wore them out.
Your naivety is telling.
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Apparently it's going to cost the UK government £2.5bn to settle the near 20,000 Afghans in the UK. 15,000 were brought over in the airlift, another 2,000 in the few months before plus approx 1,000 since 2003. Possibly a few more on the way by foot. Just think if we had held on until a peace deal was secure even if it meant a renewed conflict for a while it would have probably cost us less. We had the weaponry to kick the Taliban's arse but we allowed ourselves to run in fear of a renewed conflict.
You already had this opportunity before, TC. Albeit mid19th century. About 15,000+ British and Indian troops, with accompanying civilians were withdrawing but unfortunately were nearly massacred by native Afghans. IINM, only one survived.
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You vastly over estimate the capability and capacity of the UK to conduct military operations on the scale needed to defeat the Taliban.
Not only that...but like [the failure] in Vietnam, there has to be a strong internal desire to resolve the differences within. Doubtfully will ever happen in Afghanistan.
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You vastly over estimate the capability and capacity of the UK to conduct military operations on the scale needed to defeat the Taliban.
The Soviet Union failed in their 9 year occupation, the US/UK + NATO failed in the 20 years of occupation fighting against an insurgency that simply wore them out.
Your naivety is telling.
I reckon £2.5bn would take us a fair way, better spent on kicking their ass than to have them here. Scorched earth tactics would be the best way.
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I reckon £2.5bn would take us a fair way, better spent on kicking their ass than to have them here. Scorched earth tactics would be the best way.
One can tell you’re very well informed on military tactics.
What video games do you play?
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One can tell you’re very well informed on military tactics.
What video games do you play?
I'lld beat you at world of tanks anyday ;D
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Former Guantanamo terrorist inmates now run the Afghan government.....
GUANTANAMO BAY, Cuba — Four of the so-called “Taliban Five” have been named to key roles (http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/taliban-leaders-from-jail-negotiating-table-kabul) in the Taliban’s new “caretaker” government in Afghanistan following the terrorist group’s takeover of the country after the militant leaders were released from detention at Guantanamo Bay (http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/sept-11-mastermind-smiles-eaves-returns-gitmo-court) in a prisoner exchange for U.S. Army deserter Bowe Bergdahl.
The Taliban took over Afghanistan in August after an ill-planned and chaotic Biden administration withdrawal.
A Taliban spokesman said (http://twitter.com/suhailshaheen1/status/1435436428138356736?s=20) the group had appointed Mullah Noorullah Noori to be the acting minister of borders and tribal affairs, Abdul Haq Wasiq to be the acting director of intelligence, Mullah Khairullah Khairkhwa to be the acting minister of information and broadcasting, and Mullah Mohammad Fazil to be the deputy defense minister. The fifth of the five, Mohammad Nabi Omari, was reportedly (http://twitter.com/billroggio/status/1430145893530013697?s=20) appointed to be the governor of Khost Province in eastern Afghanistan last month.The five men had been members (http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/taliban-commander-faithful-poised-big-role-afghanistan) of the Taliban government prior to its overthrow by U.S. forces in the wake of the terrorist attacks of Sept. 11, 2001. Before being sent to Guantanamo Bay, Noori was a Taliban governor and is believed to have been involved in the massacres of thousands of Hazara, Uzbek, and other Shiite minorities.
More....
http://www.yahoo.com/now/taliban-five-guantanamo-bay-afghan-133000675.html
But at least we got [in exchange] a hero deserter back safely. Went into hiding did he?
http://nypost.com/2021/09/07/four-taliban-members-swapped-for-bowe-bergdahl-now-in-afghan-government/
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(http://s.yimg.com/ny/api/res/1.2/H7Ums7HJi61lW80HAVwFoA--/YXBwaWQ9aGlnaGxhbmRlcjt3PTIzNjtoPTQ4O2NmPXdlYnA-/http://s.yimg.com/os/creatr-uploaded-images/2021-06/dd9f39e0-d528-11eb-bbfd-9e5fb2149997) (http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/)
White House hails 'businesslike' and 'professional' Taliban for aid in flight out of Afghanistan
= Payoff...bribe...ransom
http://www.yahoo.com/now/white-house-hails-businesslike-professional-183100298.html
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Payoff...bribe...ransom
High crimes :D
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Remembering…
http://www.instagram.com/tv/CTr-04PAg4w/?utm_medium=copy_link
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Our government said they killed two ISIS planners as retaliation but couldn't give us names. This Pentagon spokesperson is lying his ass off.
http://t.me/TheStormHasArrived17/4962 (http://t.me/TheStormHasArrived17/4962)
Biden droned a USAID worker and his family which included 7 children. Probably relied on intel from the Taliban since we didn't have boots on the ground outside of the airport.
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(http://a57.foxnews.com/static.foxnews.com/foxnews.com/content/uploads/2021/09/918/516/cartoon-9.jpg?ve=1&tl=1)
(http://a57.foxnews.com/static.foxnews.com/foxnews.com/content/uploads/2021/09/918/516/Cartoon-9.4.21A.jpg?ve=1&tl=1)
(http://a57.foxnews.com/static.foxnews.com/foxnews.com/content/uploads/2021/09/918/516/2CARTOON-9.3.21-9.3.21-9.jpg?ve=1&tl=1)
(http://a57.foxnews.com/static.foxnews.com/foxnews.com/content/uploads/2021/09/918/516/0070d855-2CARTOON-9.jpg?ve=1&tl=1)
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Why Russia, US officials are rushing to Delhi, after keeping India
away from Afghan talks As China takes driver’s seat in Afghanistan,
US and Russian officials are reaching out to India.
http://theprint.in/opinion/why-russia-us-officials-are-rushing-to-delhi-on-afghanistan/732430/
Russia planning to send humanitarian aid to Afghanistan -RIA cites foreign ministry
http://www.reuters.com/world/asia-pacific/russia-planning-send-humanitarian-aid-afghanistan-ria-cites-foreign-ministry-2021-09-13/
China, Russia could be reverse-engineering US military equipment left behind in Afghanistan
http://sg.news.yahoo.com/china-russia-could-reverse-engineering-074456314.html
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Pretty shocking to see top Obama officials, like Leon Planeta, condemning Biden by name for his bumbling of Afghanistan
http://rumble.com/vls8qd-obama-administration-officials-blame-biden-for-the-botched-afghanistan-with.html (http://rumble.com/vls8qd-obama-administration-officials-blame-biden-for-the-botched-afghanistan-with.html)
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Secretary of State admits to not knowing if we killed kids or ISIS. Sen Rand Paul said we've killed thousands by drones. We should figure out who we're targeting before firing missiles.
http://t.me/disclosetv/4680
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Secretary of State admits to not knowing if we killed kids or ISIS. Sen Rand Paul said we've killed thousands by drones. We should figure out who we're targeting before firing missiles.
http://t.me/disclosetv/4680
Been going on for many years...even better take care of our own business at home. Most, if not nearly all nations don't feel the need to bother with these types of actions.
Fathertime!
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Been going on for many years...even better take care of our own business at home. Most, if not nearly all nations don't feel the need to bother with these types of actions.
Fathertime!
Why isn't it that you and other lefty's don't get the point.
1. Biden botched the Afghanistan exit. He should have evacuated the civilians
American citizens first. Nobody is stupid enough to disagree with that.
2. Because he was getting political criticism for the fiasco of his own making
so he killed a random family with a drone attack and lied about it saying it
was the terrorist mastermind behind the car bombing.
3. He promised he wouldn't leave American citizens behind and then left American
citizens behind.
4. He lied about having a plan to get American citizens out and he isn't even
planning to make a plan on getting them out.
Your trite repetitive complaining that we shouldn't have done x, y or z in the first
place is totally irrelevant to the situation. We can only change our future actions,
not our past.
What's next? Will you say we shouldn't have killed all the native Americans? We
should have allowed women to vote earlier? We should have never enacted the
Smoot–Hawley Tariff?
We should always examine the past so that we can avoid repeating it, but let's
focus on the what happened in this past month(s) not what we can't fix during
the Bush administration.
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Secretary of State admits to not knowing if we killed kids or ISIS. Sen Rand Paul said we've killed thousands by drones. We should figure out who we're targeting before firing missiles.
He lied, he knows, you know, I know, it's been reported in the news repeatedly.
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Why isn't it that you and other lefty's don't get the point.
1. Biden botched the Afghanistan exit. He should have evacuated the civilians
American citizens first. Nobody is stupid enough to disagree with that.
2. Because he was getting political criticism for the fiasco of his own making
so he killed a random family with a drone attack and lied about it saying it
was the terrorist mastermind behind the car bombing.
3. He promised he wouldn't leave American citizens behind and then left American
citizens behind.
4. He lied about having a plan to get American citizens out and he isn't even
planning to make a plan on getting them out.
Your trite repetitive complaining that we shouldn't have done x, y or z in the first
place is totally irrelevant to the situation. We can only change our future actions,
not our past.
What's next? Will you say we shouldn't have killed all the native Americans? We
should have allowed women to vote earlier? We should have never enacted the
Smoot–Hawley Tariff?
We should always examine the past so that we can avoid repeating it, but let's
focus on the what happened in this past month(s) not what we can't fix during
the Bush administration.
The "Biden blunder' reminds me of the "newsome blunder". A low percentage of the people think it is as important as those on the right wing. At the ballot box, it won't be a big difference maker, and that is what it is mostly about for conservatives.
Fathertime!
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The "Biden blunder' reminds me of the "newsome blunder"...At the ballot box, it won't be a big difference maker....
The same silly voters?
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The same silly voters?
Silly or not, that's democracy.
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Secretary of State admits to not knowing if we killed kids or ISIS. Sen Rand Paul said we've killed thousands by drones. We should figure out who we're targeting before firing missiles.
What the hell! The US had been doing this since time immemorial. Trump did it, Obama did it, Bush did it, etc...and literally every US president at war had done it. We carpet bombed Vietnam, fire bombed Berlin and Japan targeting mostly civilians cities, killing millions, even before we nuked Hiroshima/Nagasaki.
All of the sudden partisan hacked is making an 'exception' to this heinous rule? Give this a long-overdue rest! You're no longer making any sense.
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The "Biden blunder' reminds me of the "newsome blunder". A low percentage of the people think it is as important as those on the right wing. At the ballot box, it won't be a big difference maker, and that is what it is mostly about for conservatives.
Fathertime!
Unlike you, I thought that I would back up what I say.
Biden Approval poll
Trafalgar Group
How do you think Joe Biden is handling his job as President?
43.5% Approve
54.3% Disapprove
Source
http://thetrafalgargroup.org/TRF-Biden-Approval-0908-Poll-Report.pdf
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How do you think Joe Biden is handling his job as President?
43.5% Approve
54.3% Disapprove
The 43.5% who approve are silly.
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The 43.5% who approve are silly.
And no doubt the most uninformed.
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What the hell! The US had been doing this since time immemorial. Trump did it, Obama did it, Bush did it, etc...and literally every US president at war had done it. We carpet bombed Vietnam, fire bombed Berlin and Japan targeting mostly civilians cities, killing millions, even before we nuked Hiroshima/Nagasaki.
All of the sudden partisan hacked is making an 'exception' to this heinous rule? Give this a long-overdue rest! You're no longer making any sense.
Justifying killing civilians because it has been going on since time memorial by the US government?
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Unlike you, I thought that I would back up what I say.
Biden Approval poll
Trafalgar Group
How do you think Joe Biden is handling his job as President?
43.5% Approve
54.3% Disapprove
Source
http://thetrafalgargroup.org/TRF-Biden-Approval-0908-Poll-Report.pdf
Seriously Bill, who in this day and age can put any stock into a poll?
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Justifying killing civilians because it has been going on since time memorial by the US government?
Best have someone else read the post for you, because it’s obvious you’re having a difficult time understanding what you just read.
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Unlike you, I thought that I would back up what I say.
Biden Approval poll
Trafalgar Group
How do you think Joe Biden is handling his job as President?
43.5% Approve
54.3% Disapprove
Source
http://thetrafalgargroup.org/TRF-Biden-Approval-0908-Poll-Report.pdf
Now you are a big believer in polls suddenly? If I wanted to scour the internet for polls, I'm pretty sure I can get whatever result I believe the be the truth.
I'd say biden is doing ok so far.
Fathertime!
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The same silly voters?
In the case of Biden/Trump and Newsome/Elder I think those 'silly' voters made the better choice. Right wing zealots can pour their frustration out on the internet, and hope that the next presidential election will go their way as the demographics continue to work against them.
Fathertime!
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...
I'd say biden is doing ok so far.
:shock:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RFElTWAr--Y
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What the hell! The US had been doing this since time immemorial. Trump did it, Obama did it, Bush did it, etc...and literally every US president at war had done it. We carpet bombed Vietnam, fire bombed Berlin and Japan targeting mostly civilians cities, killing millions, even before we nuked Hiroshima/Nagasaki.
All of the sudden partisan hacked is making an 'exception' to this heinous rule? Give this a long-overdue rest! You're no longer making any sense.
Trump was killing terrorist leaders. No, he did not kill kids. Better management gets better results.
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Trump was killing terrorist leaders. No, he did not kill kids. Better management gets better results.
BillyB-
That was funny! You’ve been hosed, man!
Last month, the UN announced that the number of civilian casualties in the first nine months of 2018 is higher than in any year since it started documenting them in 2009.
He not only broke Obama’s lustful bombing game in that country, he actually dropped the 22k lb. MOAB that likely killed more children than you can count. Likely would’ve have broken Obama’s record in Libya too except Obama made sure there really was nothing left to bomb. LMAO!!
You’re sunk deep, bro.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/niallmccarthy/2018/11/13/the-u-s-never-dropped-as-many-bombs-on-afghanistan-as-it-did-in-2018-infographic/amp/
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:shock:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RFElTWAr--Y
Hehe, nice video. For sure I'd rather have biden as my president than my surgeon.
Fathertime!
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BillyB-
That was funny! You’ve been hosed, man!
He not only broke Obama’s lustful bombing game in that country, he actually dropped the 22k lb. MOAB that likely killed more children than you can count. Likely would’ve have broken Obama’s record in Libya too except Obama made sure there really was nothing left to bomb. LMAO!!
You’re sunk deep, bro.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/niallmccarthy/2018/11/13/the-u-s-never-dropped-as-many-bombs-on-afghanistan-as-it-did-in-2018-infographic/amp/ (http://www.forbes.com/sites/niallmccarthy/2018/11/13/the-u-s-never-dropped-as-many-bombs-on-afghanistan-as-it-did-in-2018-infographic/amp/)
Trump's 2019 increase bombing got results. Fighting nearly stopped and no American soldier was killed since Jan 2020. Trump had pacified the Taliban to where they considered a cease fire and peace. Obama and Bush's strategy prolonged the war and kept the military industry rich. By leaving Afghanistan the way we did and killing kids while lying it was Isis-K planners, Biden essentially created tens of thousands of bitter people who will become the next terrorists. Some of those future terrorists came to America as refugees. Military industry can take a break while we enrich big pharma's pockets for the next few years. You know politicians are getting kickbacks each time their reward an industry.
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Trump's 2019 increase bombing got results. Fighting nearly stopped and no American soldier was killed since Jan 2020. Trump had pacified the Taliban to where they considered a cease fire and peace. Obama and Bush's strategy prolonged the war and kept the military industry rich. By leaving Afghanistan the way we did and killing kids while lying it was Isis-K planners, Biden essentially created tens of thousands of bitter people who will become the next terrorists. Some of those future terrorists came to America as refugees. Military industry can take a break while we enrich big pharma's pockets for the next few years. You know politicians are getting kickbacks each time their reward an industry.
Jimminy, Creekety WOW Batman! The ol' proverbial moving goal post, I see...
Trump got results alright! He killed far MORE CIVILIANS in the process.
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Trump got results alright! He killed far MORE CIVILIANS in the process.
Taliban stopped shooting at us because Trump killed civilians and they care about civilians?
How do you know Trump targeted civilians? How do you know he killed more civilians than Biden? Did you keep a count? When the Taliban stopped warring with us, it actually saved civilian lives. Guess how many civilians are going to get slaughtered now because of Biden's actions.
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Taliban stopped shooting at us because Trump killed civilians and they care about civilians?
How do you know Trump targeted civilians? How do you know he killed more civilians than Biden? Did you keep a count? When the Taliban stopped warring with us, it actually saved civilian lives. Guess how many civilians are going to get slaughtered now because of Biden's actions.
You're much too easy and incredibly predictable, BillyB (http://watson.brown.edu/costsofwar/files/cow/imce/papers/2020/Rising%20Civilian%20Death%20Toll%20in%20Afghanistan_Costs%20of%20War_Dec%207%202020.pdf). Your partisanship needs a very serious overhaul. Quit the koolaid.
Stop digging...you've successfully reached the realm of unimaginable absurdity months ago.
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You're much too easy and incredibly predictable, BillyB (http://watson.brown.edu/costsofwar/files/cow/imce/papers/2020/Rising%20Civilian%20Death%20Toll%20in%20Afghanistan_Costs%20of%20War_Dec%207%202020.pdf). Your partisanship needs a very serious overhaul. Quit the koolaid.
Stop digging...you've successfully reached the realm of unimaginable absurdity months ago.
Is that the best you can do? And you think I'm drinking the fake news koolaid? The author of that report is a professor at a university who writes op eds at the Washington Post and other liberal newpapers. Read her references for her report. Most of them came from the NY Times. She relies on biased journalists for info on what Trump is doing. Here she said Trump turned the Mexican American border into a warzone. You believe that too?
http://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/2018/11/30/administration-is-treating-border-like-war-zone-its-violating-laws-war/
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RWD has more "magical thinkers" than Wizardchan.
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Is that the best you can do? And you think I'm drinking the fake news koolaid? The author of that report is a professor at a university who writes op eds at the Washington Post and other liberal newpapers. Read her references for her report. Most of them came from the NY Times. She relies on biased journalists for info on what Trump is doing. Here she said Trump turned the Mexican American border into a warzone. You believe that too?
http://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/2018/11/30/administration-is-treating-border-like-war-zone-its-violating-laws-war/ (http://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/2018/11/30/administration-is-treating-border-like-war-zone-its-violating-laws-war/)
Neta Crawford credentials (http://www2.hhh.umn.edu/uthinkcache/gpa/globalnotes/Crawford%20-%20CV.pdf)
What about yours, BillyB? What's your credentials aside from a known internet political hack?
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Neta Crawford credentials (http://www2.hhh.umn.edu/uthinkcache/gpa/globalnotes/Crawford%20-%20CV.pdf)
What about yours, BillyB? What's your credentials aside from a known internet political hack?
I'm not biased like Neta is. I tell people to avoid both the Democratic and Republican parties. There's only a handful of good people in them parties and only those people should be supported. It doesn't matter how much credentials Neta has, she's very flawed because she's very biased.
RWD has more "magical thinkers" than Wizardchan.
I had to look Wizardchan up. A journalist reports they are 30 something yo virgin males who avoid females because they believe they are demonic succubi spirits. Their slogan is "Disregard women, acquire magic". Does anybody here feel like joining them? The journalist says they wouldn't vote for female such as Hillary so Trump pursued their vote hard. Why would Trump need to try hard to obtain votes from women hating male virgins?
This story on this group reminds me of the media and Democrats making up QAnon, a group of guys who love Trump and think Democrats are vampire aliens that suck on the blood of children. I hope when this is over, the media is held accountable for messing up people's minds. Americans are getting a taste a fascist communist style propaganda which does nobody any good.
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I'm not biased like Neta is. I tell people to avoid both the Democratic and Republican parties. There's only a handful of good people in them parties and only those people should be supported. It doesn't matter how much credentials Neta has, she's very flawed because she's very biased.
:ROFL: Are you sure about the above?
Anyway...so translation is: you're just full of hot air, compared to Ms. Crawford, eh!
LMAO! "Trump didn't kill children"....pretty funny declaration there, BillyB. Glad I was here to help a bruddah out!
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Well biden at least had the guts to admit that we screwed up with the drone strike. I sure there have been tons of civilian casualties through the years. Now people want to be compensated and who can blame them? Imagine how angry it would make you if your family was accidently wiped out by a drone strike. These people of course deserve much more than monetary compensation, but at least that is something.
I can see how through the years extremists are made. If my family was wiped out like this from a much more powerful foreign nation, I'd be screaming for vengeance.
They lost loved ones in the deadly U.S. 'mistake.' They want more than an apology.
For the United States, Friday's apology for a drone strike that killed 10 innocent civilians in Afghanistan last month was a rare admission of a deadly and damaging mistake.
For the family still reeling from their loss, it was far from enough.
"No one (has contacted) with us to apologize," Emal Ahmadi, whose toddler Malika was among seven children killed in the August 29 blast, told NBC News Saturday.
Ahmadi said he was surprised to hear that the U.S. had offered publicly apologized for the incident, since he had yet to hear from a single official himself.
However, he also said that an apology would not suffice. "I lost ten members of our family and the U.S. should pay," he said.
"(The) U.S. should pay compensation for us and should transfer us from Kabul."....
http://www.yahoo.com/news/pain-does-apology-cure-afghan-152334529.html (http://www.yahoo.com/news/pain-does-apology-cure-afghan-152334529.html)
(http://platekompaniet.no/globalassets/imported-images/updatedcovers/5099750213322.jpg)
Fathertime!
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Well some good news in all of this the Taliban are already working wonders and showing us how a society should be run :)
http://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-58607816.amp
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Well biden at least had the guts to admit that we screwed up with the drone strike.
They lied incessantly about it. They got the bad guys, they showed their amazing
over the horizon capabilities to kill terrorists with pinpoint precision and on, and on,
and on, and on they went.
It was a lie and they doubled down on it a hundred times.
They said that they hit a suicide bomb car and it was the secondary explosions
that killed so many people. The whole lefty activist news organizations cheered
that Biden had finally done something good. The only problem was that it wasn't
true. It was 10 civilians that included 7 children that the crack Biden antiterror
group reached out and killed over the horizon.
By a 54-37 percent margin, Americans think the country is less united under
Biden rather than more so
http://www.foxnews.com/official-polls/fox-news-poll-voters-think-the-country-is-less-united-under-biden
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Well biden at least had the guts to admit that we screwed up with the drone strike.
It's easy to admit fault after getting caught and lying doesn't work anymore. Drones have cameras and in critical strikes in civilian areas or for leaders of terrorism, the video is sent back to the situation room in D.C. so the president himself can order the attack. Trump was watching drone video and ordered the strike on the Iranian general in Iraq. Obama watched the video of special forces going in to get Osama Bin Laden.
Maybe Biden wanted an American ally and his kids dead. The anger this will create among Muslims will create thousands of new terrorists. Biden planted the seeds with that attack and how we left Afghanistan. With the seeds planted, we will be back someday to clean up Afghanistan again.
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By a 54-37 percent margin, Americans think the country is less united under
Biden rather than more so
http://www.foxnews.com/official-polls/fox-news-poll-voters-think-the-country-is-less-united-under-biden
...another poll. selective poll at that on fox news. I know that the conservative are less united for sure!
I like that biden took more shots for the US drone strikes. The people of the world shouldn't have to live with the fear of terror from the sky at any moment. If we here in the states had that genuine fear, we would better understand why other nation's people are beginning to resent us more.
Fathertime!
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...another poll. selective poll at that on fox news. I know that the conservative are less united for sure!
What you should have said is
"More evidence, I wish that so much evidence wasn't presented against
my arguments and world view"
You make silly claims but provide no evidence.
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What you should have said is
"More evidence, I wish that so much evidence wasn't presented against
my arguments and world view"
You make silly claims but provide no evidence.
Ridiculous, I don't consider your 'evidence' as valuable at all. I don't bother presenting 'evidence' myself. I just give my opinion and don't act as if a link is important. Especially a goofy foxnews poll.
Fathertime!
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Ridiculous, I don't consider your 'evidence' as valuable at all. I don't bother presenting 'evidence' myself. I just give my opinion and don't act as if a link is important. Especially a goofy foxnews poll.
Fathertime!
You should watch BC or Boe they can actually link things to back up what they say.
You are lazy, unimaginative and beginning to bore me again. I have more important
things to do.
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Well biden at least had the guts to admit that we screwed up with the drone strike.
...that WE screwed up? Now if he only had the guts to admit that HE screwed up.
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I don't bother presenting 'evidence' myself.
We know
Iowa Poll: 62% of Iowans disapprove of the job Joe Biden is doing as president
http://www.desmoinesregister.com/story/news/politics/iowa-poll/2021/09/21/president-joe-biden-job-approval-rating-plunges-after-afghanistan-covid-surge/8378224002/
Biden's approval on pulling American troops out of Afghanistan stands at a meager
22%. Approval for his handling of the Covid-19 pandemic is now just 36%
http://www.cnn.com/2021/09/21/politics/iowa-poll-joe-biden-approval/index.html
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We know
Iowa Poll: 62% of Iowans disapprove of the job Joe Biden is doing as president
http://www.desmoinesregister.com/story/news/politics/iowa-poll/2021/09/21/president-joe-biden-job-approval-rating-plunges-after-afghanistan-covid-surge/8378224002/
Biden's approval on pulling American troops out of Afghanistan stands at a meager
22%. Approval for his handling of the Covid-19 pandemic is now just 36%
http://www.cnn.com/2021/09/21/politics/iowa-poll-joe-biden-approval/index.html
...and if we had a snap election right now trump/biden. Biden would probably trounce trump again.
Fathertime!
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...that WE screwed up? Now if he only had the guts to admit that HE screwed up.
I think it is a we in the sense that it was the 'intelligence' that was incorrect. It is often incorrect or incomplete so the nation can stop with all the drone strikes. There are more pressing issues here to deal with.
Fathertime!