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Author Topic: Do any of your wives feel they are treated as first class citizens?  (Read 12854 times)

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Offline BC

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Re: Do any of your wives feel they are treated as first class citizens?
« Reply #25 on: May 18, 2006, 11:27:50 PM »
That is new to me. I always thought their families moved voluntarily because Katherine the Grate asked them to.  ;D

It just shows how much you know about Russian history. No families has been moved to Russia from Germany during WWII. They kept prisoners of war as a laborers and that all.

Wild Orchid.. I stand corrected and did my remedial reading assignment :) -thanks!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_minority_in_Russia_and_Soviet_Union
http://www.dragonidicuneo.leganord.org/drago/GermansVolga1.pdf

Offline wiz

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Re: Do any of your wives feel they are treated as first class citizens?
« Reply #26 on: May 19, 2006, 12:06:28 AM »

I bet a language is a very important skill,yet a self-confidence. Of course,a place plays some role too.
I think that every RW can get over that unpleasant moment of feeling a stranger. Just have to be involved deeper in that new life.


How can any person from another country can integrate into the society is going to live in without a good command of the local language?

A RW or UW of course she will feel intimidated and frustrated and maybe frighten because of that. I do feel sorry for all these women who hardly speak any English and move to live in USA or UK. All the love, affection and care by their husbands still can not instill confidence in them until they become fluent speakers of English.

I started learning English since I was 7 yrs old and in 1970 (25 yrs old) first came to UK, with my then English wife. For the next 8 yrs lived here for several months each year BUT in 1978 when I came here to live permanently I still founded difficult to adjust and integrate to the English society.

Speaking adequate English is one of my requirements in my search for a partner and I am very confident that when I find the right person, with my advice, in a very short space of time she will become fluent, and she will feel confident and comfortable living over here. My chances for a successful partnership for the rest of my life will increase immensely.

Offline PeeWee

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Re: Do any of your wives feel they are treated as first class citizens?
« Reply #27 on: May 19, 2006, 07:00:42 AM »
I had another thought about the "second class citizen" vibrations. My mom was telling me that when she was a child that her mother would not let her play with the Chinese children. The bias in many cases are rooted in a generation or two back. Remember seeing the movie "The Gangs of New York" or the movie "Crash". Both movies depict a tremendous race bias with in our country. We are a country of immigrants, unless we are Native American. Yet we still, to some extent, seperate ourselves in to ethnic groups. A person by their accent inadvertantly advertises their difference thus drawing a certian attention to themselves. As a result those that still harbor a race  bias will react to that in some way.

My friend Svetlana, who lives in Moscow, complains about all of those who come to live in Moscow from the various FSU countries. So it is unfair to say that Americans bias themselves against a specific group of people (Russians) because Russians are biased against Russians and Americans are no different. 

Peewee

Offline jb

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Re: Do any of your wives feel they are treated as first class citizens?
« Reply #28 on: May 19, 2006, 07:21:09 AM »
Quote
We are a country of immigrants

I hate that statement, especially when applied as a band-aid to soothe the pains of would be immigrant-rights wackos.  All nations are "Nations of Immigrants".  Do you suppose England or France, or Germany, and particularly Mexico, arose whole from the soil as a completely put together nationality?  No, they did not, every nation back to before the Romans were a collection of immigrants.  You just have to dig a little deeper than 250 years to find their immigrant roots.  To apply this notion, in this day and age to the USA, to try to make America seem unique is being totally intellectually dishonest.

Offline catzenmouse

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Re: Do any of your wives feel they are treated as first class citizens?
« Reply #29 on: May 19, 2006, 08:00:25 AM »
Being 1/8 Native American I can honestly tell you all to "GET OUT!"

Thank you for playing, you can pick up your door prize on the way out of the studio... ;D

Ken
"Marriage is that relation between man and woman in which the independence is equal, the dependence mutual, and the obligation reciprocal."
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Offline jb

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Re: Do any of your wives feel they are treated as first class citizens?
« Reply #30 on: May 19, 2006, 08:31:07 AM »
Ken,

jb's paternal grandmother was a 100% Oklahoma Indian Squaw right off the reservation, I guess that figures 25% here, so I hear ya.

Offline PeeWee

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Re: Do any of your wives feel they are treated as first class citizens?
« Reply #31 on: May 19, 2006, 10:12:51 AM »
I hate that statement, especially when applied as a band-aid to soothe the pains of would be immigrant-rights wackos.  All nations are "Nations of Immigrants".  Do you suppose England or France, or Germany, and particularly Mexico, arose whole from the soil as a completely put together nationality?  No, they did not, every nation back to before the Romans were a collection of immigrants.  You just have to dig a little deeper than 250 years to find their immigrant roots.  To apply this notion, in this day and age to the USA, to try to make America seem unique is being totally intellectually dishonest.

yet it is more dramatic with the US and Canada who are relatively new compared to those that you mention so there is no comparison by those measures. Who knows how long it will take to lose that feeling that we are  a nation forged by our forefathers be it England or not. We are reminded of this evertime someone reads or recites the Gettysburg Address. "Four sour and 7 years ago our forefather brought forth to this country a new nation...." Yes, all nations are a collection of immigrants but none so new as ours. And I will dispute with you that America is unique. What was forced immigration by slavery? All nations had their time for slavery but once again none were so dramatic as that which occured in the US. Every country is unique unto itself. Ours just happens to center around how we came to be...and that would be my massive immigration.

Peewee

Offline Daknack

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Re: Do any of your wives feel they are treated as first class citizens?
« Reply #32 on: May 19, 2006, 10:57:35 AM »
Being 1/8 Native American I can honestly tell you all to "GET OUT!"

Thank you for playing, you can pick up your door prize on the way out of the studio... ;D

Ken

Ok... Im coming to your house and taking 1/8 of your land.  Also your left leg from the knee down is going to a reservation  :P

Offline catzenmouse

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Re: Do any of your wives feel they are treated as first class citizens?
« Reply #33 on: May 19, 2006, 11:02:47 AM »
Ok... Im coming to your house and taking 1/8 of your land.  Also your left leg from the knee down is going to a reservation  :P

Okay, but don't forget to bring beer (er.. I mean Firewater!) !
"Marriage is that relation between man and woman in which the independence is equal, the dependence mutual, and the obligation reciprocal."
-- Louis K. Anspacher

Offline Daknack

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Re: Do any of your wives feel they are treated as first class citizens?
« Reply #34 on: May 19, 2006, 11:07:32 AM »
yet it is more dramatic with the US and Canada who are relatively new compared to those that you mention so there is no comparison by those measures. Who knows how long it will take to lose that feeling that we are  a nation forged by our forefathers be it England or not. We are reminded of this evertime someone reads or recites the Gettysburg Address. "Four sour and 7 years ago our forefather brought forth to this country a new nation...." Yes, all nations are a collection of immigrants but none so new as ours. And I will dispute with you that America is unique. What was forced immigration by slavery? All nations had their time for slavery but once again none were so dramatic as that which occured in the US. Every country is unique unto itself. Ours just happens to center around how we came to be...and that would be my massive immigration.

Peewee

Pee Wee if you think for one moment that our nation is unique in its use of slave or even on the scale you need to open a history book about the subject and actually read it.  What is unique about American slavery however is that one race and people only were enslaved to the exclusion of all others.

To JB,  I have no issue with the idea that we are a nation of immigrants.  However, you are correct that it is used as an excuse to create a "nation within a nation" and to not assimilate into our culture.  Thats really the main problem with all this.  Immigrants from anywhere are coming here not to become an american, but to live in the United States as Mexican, Russian, African , Korean, or whatever.  PeeWee is however correct in an aspect.  While all nations are migratory, ours (and canada) are nations whos power was built over the years on enterprising immigrants that for whatever reasons couldnt make it where they were from, and worked hard coming here.  The native peoples here didnt build America into what it is today. it was those people that migrated almost in totality.

To Ken will do I have to keep you drunk so your left leg isnt a threat!

Offline BC

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Re: Do any of your wives feel they are treated as first class citizens?
« Reply #35 on: May 19, 2006, 12:03:36 PM »
I really don't know what all the fuss is about.  The early settlers in the US certainly did not have the goal of assimilation in their mind.  Think assimilation was a utopic dream that came along much later.. I often wonder where Native Americans would be today if left alone but that's another topic, another forum.

I never expect my wife to feel she is Italian.  Our kids, probably not.. maybe in 10 generations?? who knows.  As I have we will settle nicely here with 'adjustment'.  For us it's all about accepting and being accepted and that has been very successful here so far.

Offline Zhena

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Re: Do any of your wives feel they are treated as first class citizens?
« Reply #36 on: May 19, 2006, 12:05:44 PM »
I have to say that the Moscow citizens are worst in this,I suppose same as NYC citizens. In all other cities of Russia you will not find that attitude.

Offline PeeWee

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Re: Do any of your wives feel they are treated as first class citizens?
« Reply #37 on: May 19, 2006, 01:06:42 PM »
I have to say that the Moscow citizens are worst in this,I suppose same as NYC citizens. In all other cities of Russia you will not find that attitude.


I think the core comment was that a man's RW felt like a second class citizen in her daily experiences here in the US. The point that I made was that it happens in Moscow, Russia as well. Russians making other Russians feel the same. No one is picking on her in otherwords because she if Russian. They are making her feel that way because that is what people do to other people no matter from where they come or who they are.

Peewee

Offline PeeWee

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Re: Do any of your wives feel they are treated as first class citizens?
« Reply #38 on: May 19, 2006, 01:11:52 PM »
Pee Wee if you think for one moment that our nation is unique in its use of slave or even on the scale you need to open a history book about the subject and actually read it.  What is unique about American slavery however is that one race and people only were enslaved to the exclusion of all others.

To JB,  I have no issue with the idea that we are a nation of immigrants.  However, you are correct that it is used as an excuse to create a "nation within a nation" and to not assimilate into our culture.  Thats really the main problem with all this.  Immigrants from anywhere are coming here not to become an american, but to live in the United States as Mexican, Russian, African , Korean, or whatever.  PeeWee is however correct in an aspect.  While all nations are migratory, ours (and canada) are nations whos power was built over the years on enterprising immigrants that for whatever reasons couldnt make it where they were from, and worked hard coming here.  The native peoples here didnt build America into what it is today. it was those people that migrated almost in totality.

To Ken will do I have to keep you drunk so your left leg isnt a threat!

Daknack, I can debate this with you later but for now condesention does not become you. I'm off to see The Da Vinci Code with little peewee junior. I'll get back to you later.

Peewee

Offline ConnerVT

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Re: Do any of your wives feel they are treated as first class citizens?
« Reply #39 on: May 19, 2006, 03:37:42 PM »
I think the core comment was that a man's RW felt like a second class citizen in her daily experiences here in the US. The point that I made was that it happens in Moscow, Russia as well.

It is interesting that the US city (NYC) and Moscow rank near the top in population in the world (9th and 10th?  I forget, and am at work...).  Seems that everyone else has said it is more the exception than rule where they live...

Offline Turboguy

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Re: Do any of your wives feel they are treated as first class citizens?
« Reply #40 on: May 20, 2006, 02:44:26 AM »
I don't have as much experience as some of you since I am more of a wannabee but with my former fiancee Luda no one treated her like a second class citizen and everyone fell over backwards to make her feel welcome and to befriend her.   Luda was very standoffish when she first arrived and afraid of people but once she realized that people liked her and wanted to be her friend she got much more outgoing.  Even my Daughter who was ahhh, ahh, a fair amount older than Luda had made up her mind before Luda arrived that she was going to hate her, but once she met her it took only a short time for that to change and my daughter really liked Luda a lot and they became friends.   Actually there were a lot of people who missed Luda almost as much as I did when she went back.

My only other serious experience was my friend from the Lakes region of NH and she seemed to have most people accept her easily and to be able to make friends easily.  The only people I ever saw who seemed to not be very accepting were some Russians we ran into at a ski resort.

I think a lot of it is where you are and the prior exposure to people from the FSU.  It almost seems to me from reading this thread that the gals living in the bigger cities find less acceptance and the ones in the more out of the way places are more accepting.  I have to say, I find if I go to Iowa or Minnesota people in general all talk to you and say hello and engage you in conversations and if I go to New York City or Miami, people won't even look you in the eyes.   I am not saying big city people aren't friendly, I think the culture is more protective out of necessity.  I think big city people have their circle of friends and are wary of strangers.

Offline Zhena

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Re: Do any of your wives feel they are treated as first class citizens?
« Reply #41 on: May 20, 2006, 12:08:14 PM »
Yes,the megapolice citizens look negative at the strangers usually...Maybe because alot of strangers come into their place and create a tough competition,I dont know. I felt that in Moscow very much. Once they discoverung that you came from another city,especially from Ukraine-some negative attitude coming out. Not all people like this,but many.

Offline Shadow

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Re: Do any of your wives feel they are treated as first class citizens?
« Reply #42 on: May 21, 2006, 09:08:20 AM »
Yes,the megapolice citizens look negative at the strangers usually...Maybe because alot of strangers come into their place and create a tough competition,I dont know. I felt that in Moscow very much. Once they discoverung that you came from another city,especially from Ukraine-some negative attitude coming out. Not all people like this,but many.
Fiancee, I know where the attitude comes from. Moscow has a lot of economic refugees from Ukraine who cause problems. Because of this there is a negative view on Ukrainians.
No it is not a dog. Its really how I look.  ;)

Offline Zhena

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Re: Do any of your wives feel they are treated as first class citizens?
« Reply #43 on: May 21, 2006, 09:54:52 AM »
Fiancee, I know where the attitude comes from. Moscow has a lot of economic refugees from Ukraine who cause problems. Because of this there is a negative view on Ukrainians.
Shadow,unfortunately you re mistaken here...Then what about other russian cities people? The moscow people consider themselves more superior on them too.
About Ukraine,many russian people didnt like us much before the economical conflicts. Since USSR existed. I have to say that i like the russain people,my father is russian,and I like the russians soul wideness. But such an attitude exists,its just a fact.

Offline Shadow

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Re: Do any of your wives feel they are treated as first class citizens?
« Reply #44 on: May 21, 2006, 10:06:49 AM »
Shadow,unfortunately you re mistaken here...Then what about other russian cities people? The moscow people consider themselves more superior on them too.
About Ukraine,many russian people didnt like us much before the economical conflicts. Since USSR existed. I have to say that i like the russain people,my father is russian,and I like the russians soul wideness. But such an attitude exists,its just a fact.
Fiancee, as my fiancee is from Moscow I have to deal with the attitude daily (and I can tell you it does not exist in her). From there I know what causes the attitude in the eyes of Moscovites, which might be different than the eyes of others. If you are from a major city you will find in this city people who come from the low part of society.
I Moscow these are Ukrainians and Caucasians. In New York they are Mexicans and Cubans. In Amsterdam they are Moroccans and Antillians.
All of them have in common that they arrive with expectations of a better life, are unable to reach it. Then they land in the lower circles of criminal behavior and drug addicts. As a result these people get a bad name.
In all of these cases the bad name should not be put on all people of the country. There are good and bad people everywhere. But when your bike is stolen the third time and they are smoking drugs under your window, it is hard to remember that.

People of big cities always have some sense of being superior. On the other hand people from small cities always think the big city people have an attitude problem  ;)
No it is not a dog. Its really how I look.  ;)

Offline PeeWee

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Re: Do any of your wives feel they are treated as first class citizens?
« Reply #45 on: May 21, 2006, 10:42:52 AM »
Fiancee, as my fiancee is from Moscow I have to deal with the attitude daily (and I can tell you it does not exist in her). From there I know what causes the attitude in the eyes of Moscovites, which might be different than the eyes of others. If you are from a major city you will find in this city people who come from the low part of society.
I Moscow these are Ukrainians and Caucasians. In New York they are Mexicans and Cubans. In Amsterdam they are Moroccans and Antillians.
All of them have in common that they arrive with expectations of a better life, are unable to reach it. Then they land in the lower circles of criminal behavior and drug addicts. As a result these people get a bad name.
In all of these cases the bad name should not be put on all people of the country. There are good and bad people everywhere. But when your bike is stolen the third time and they are smoking drugs under your window, it is hard to remember that.

People of big cities always have some sense of being superior. On the other hand people from small cities always think the big city people have an attitude problem  ;)

Shadow, people, in general, have some sense of feeling superior over another. I see it occuring even on this forum. I don't think that one can go anywhere and not find a first class/second class citizen senerio occuring as some level. The originial complaint of this thead was that a man's RW felt as if she were being treated as a second class citizen. Yet I will contend that even the very woman who made that complaint has somehow viewed another group in the same way.

Peewee 

Offline Zhena

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Re: Do any of your wives feel they are treated as first class citizens?
« Reply #46 on: May 21, 2006, 11:21:10 AM »
Oh,Shadow,I see. If your fiancee is from Moscow-no more questions or comments to you-of course you will take her side ;)That is naturally.
P.S. I am not from a small city. Its a city-millionaire. And I dont feel any superiority on anyone. Thats silly.

Offline Shadow

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Re: Do any of your wives feel they are treated as first class citizens?
« Reply #47 on: May 21, 2006, 12:05:57 PM »
Oh,Shadow,I see. If your fiancee is from Moscow-no more questions or comments to you-of course you will take her side ;)That is naturally.
P.S. I am not from a small city. Its a city-millionaire. And I dont feel any superiority on anyone. Thats silly.
Perhaps you did not read that I do not detect any attitude in her  ;D
I think we both share your feelings that all people are equal and should not be treated different. However being from a big Dutch city (600.000 is big  ::)) I have seen the same attitude and feelings develop. Thanks to my parents I can walk in any part of the city without being concerned that people are more or less than I am.
No it is not a dog. Its really how I look.  ;)

Offline Zhena

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Re: Do any of your wives feel they are treated as first class citizens?
« Reply #48 on: May 21, 2006, 12:25:42 PM »
Shadow,notice,I said before that NOT ALL moscowities are like this. Some are really nice and intelligent people.I believe that your fiance is one of them.

Offline Muj

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Re: Do any of your wives feel they are treated as first class citizens?
« Reply #49 on: May 21, 2006, 05:15:02 PM »
I found attitudes in Moscow and NYC similar.  Avoid public eye contact, overbearing front desk service, greedy taxi drivers.... Also some interesting and nice people in both. ;).   I enjoy visiting both.
Also I find moving anywhere proves challenging, even from one region of the US to another.  When I moved from east PA to MO for 2 yrs, the midwesterners knew from my accent that I was from the East Coast and always someone had a comment on their dislike for the easterners.  Much of their experience based on New Yorkers, one of the most numerous groups in the US.  Politely said, midwesterners, as well as world wide, consider people from NYC very outspoken.  However, I find midwesterners somewaht superficial in their friendliness and politeness.   Once I learned the mannerisms, vernacular, various greetings, I was better liked and made more friends.  It is kind of a respect as you are in their home now.  I learned that my idea of manners and behaviour may differ from another's. 

 

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