Vaccines for Travelling Abroad

[GQBlues]

Stubborn facts and veracity of reality.

World-O-Meter report as of today, October 6, 2021.

For the United States of America. With all its citizen pushbacks, ambivalence towards draconian style of existence during the pandemic, these are the actual values of how COVID-19 affected the population. Not the silly deaths/million column.

Population: 333,447,797
Reported Active Cases: 44,786,258
Deaths: 724,838

Mortality Rate: 0.217% (# death vs. population)
Case Fatality Rate: 1.62% (# who were infected and died of and with COVID-19)
Survivability Rate: 98.38% (survived COVID-19 infection)
Virulence: 0.22% (Rate of how COVID is transmitted within)


Comparably, in Italy, the corresponding numbers are:
0.217%
2.80%
0.22%


With the exception of CFR, people dying after getting infected, the numbers are fairly well the same. I won't waste my time blaming their medical system for that anymore. No siree! This, despite their folks were/are living within a policed state! Go figure...

Caution: Some of the numbers we see in all these reports need to be taken with some grain of salt. Too many variables to consider to arrive to any discernible certainty. These are, at best at this time, very educated guesses..

Bottom line, COVID-19 is the same virus found in Timbuktoo, as it is in the USA or anywhere else. Interestingly, despite all the hoopla about how some nations are more diligent in their silly draconian attitudes compared to the careless losers in the US, the end result based on these relatable percentages, is the same after nearly two years of this pandemic.

Last year, the pundits blamed everything about COVID on Trump. But this year that changed. They simply won't blame it on Biden, so they blame it on *Trump supporters* since Trump is gone instead.

Recognize partisan 'opinions' who would like to twist things as though they're factual to push some silly narrative.

Numbers never lie.

[Trenchcoat]

Think the upcoming issue in the west will become when to revaccinate the general wider population. Elderly are of course being done at the moment but I reckon by next year the vaccine's effectiveness will be decreasing in most people. Vaccine effectiveness starts decreasing 4-6 months after being jabbed. That's thought to gradually fall away further after that. So at some point next year possibly mid way through the year or thereafter vaccine effectiveness in people is likely to get fairly low and cases and hospitalisations, etc may start rising again. So another round of vaccinations may be needed around that time.

In the east countries like Ukraine are currently facing an enormous rise in cases, etc without much of the population being vaccinated so few protected by vaccine. For many in Ukraine this winter is unfortunately probably looking bleak. Like India it looks like they are just going to have to ride this one out.

[BC]

Stubborn facts and veracity of reality.

World-O-Meter report as of today, October 6, 2021.

For the United States of America. With all its citizen pushbacks, ambivalence towards draconian style of existence during the pandemic, these are the actual values of how COVID-19 affected the population. Not the silly deaths/million column.

Population: 333,447,797
Reported Active Cases: 44,786,258
Deaths: 724,838

Mortality Rate: 0.217% (# death vs. population)
Case Fatality Rate: 1.62% (# who were infected and died of and with COVID-19)
Survivability Rate: 98.38% (survived COVID-19 infection)
Virulence: 0.22% (Rate of how COVID is transmitted within)


Comparably, in Italy, the corresponding numbers are:
0.217%
2.80%
0.22%


With the exception of CFR, people dying after getting infected, the numbers are fairly well the same. I won't waste my time blaming their medical system for that anymore. No siree! This, despite their folks were/are living within a policed state! Go figure...

Your 'mortality rate' is the same as deaths per million, only calculated as a percentage.  No difference.

CFR is a very fuzzy number, as it can only be estimated how many infections occurred. We probably have a better grasp on that nowadays that tests are regularly available, and not restricted to the few that entered hospitals - as things were when the outbreak hit.

Italy had a bad time in the first waves this did lead to the hospital system being overwhelmed and difficult choices being made.  This was last year.  This year, there have been no issues and plenty of ICU space available.  The US OTOH, has not fared so well this year, with a number of state systems being overwhelmed to the point that care was/is rationed and the same difficult choices being made very recently.

Caution: Some of the numbers we see in all these reports need to be taken with some grain of salt. Too many variables to consider to arrive to any discernible certainty. These are, at best at this time, very educated guesses..

Indeed.

Bottom line, COVID-19 is the same virus found in Timbuktoo, as it is in the USA or anywhere else. Interestingly, despite all the hoopla about how some nations are more diligent in their silly draconian attitudes compared to the careless losers in the US, the end result based on these relatable percentages, is the same after nearly two years of this pandemic.

Similar 'bottom line', yes, for now.  What is more important IMO is what progress was made after vaccinations began.  In a few weeks time, I'll recalculate figures for my last post highlighting the differences.  For now, suffice it to say that vaccinations and other measures have dramatically slowed hospitalizations and deaths in Italy, but the US sped up and now has zoomed past.

Last year, the pundits blamed everything about COVID on Trump. But this year that changed. They simply won't blame it on Biden, so they blame it on *Trump supporters* since Trump is gone instead.

I don't know the ratio of unvaccinated Trump supporters, vs others, so can't accurately draw a line.  I do know that many of those that voice their objections loudly are Trump supporters.

Recognize partisan 'opinions' who would like to twist things as though they're factual to push some silly narrative.

You'll have to specify what you mean by twist things. (see below)

Numbers never lie.

I agree with you, especially with large numbers at hand, which we unfortunately have.  Interpretation of those numbers, however, can be partially correct or even faulty.

I firmly believe that the measures and vaccination efforts in Italy will show a notable difference.  Let's see what happens.

[BC]

Think the upcoming issue in the west will become when to revaccinate the general wider population. Elderly are of course being done at the moment but I reckon by next year the vaccine's effectiveness will be decreasing in most people. Vaccine effectiveness starts decreasing 4-6 months after being jabbed. That's thought to gradually fall away further after that. So at some point next year possibly mid way through the year or thereafter vaccine effectiveness in people is likely to get fairly low and cases and hospitalisations, etc may start rising again. So another round of vaccinations may be needed around that time.

That may not be the case if the immune system 'remembers' COVID once active antigens dwindle. We may find that only those with weaker immune systems need boosters to help create a better 'memory' effect. Only time will tell.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2020/11/201102110039.htm

[GQBlues]

Your 'mortality rate' is the same as deaths per million, only calculated as a percentage.  No difference.

There is a difference, massive, at least from the linear psychological effect part of it. If I told you that only 0.2% (point 2 percent- not 2%) of people die of toxic farts, it has much 'lesser' optic effect, than saying 2,140 people die for every million. Unless a person have a deeper numerical cognitive abilities, number presentation will always have a different reaction.

CFR is a very fuzzy number, as it can only be estimated how many infections occurred. We probably have a better grasp on that nowadays that tests are regularly available, and not restricted to the few that entered hospitals - as things were when the outbreak hit.

You're describing IFR, not CFR. CFR is based on known reported cases. IFR includes an estimated % of asymptomatic and symptomatic cases.

Similar 'bottom line', yes, for now.  What is more important IMO is what progress was made after vaccinations began.  In a few weeks time, I'll recalculate figures for my last post highlighting the differences.  For now, suffice it to say that vaccinations and other measures have dramatically slowed hospitalizations and deaths in Italy, but the US sped up and now has zoomed past.

Zoomed past what? As opposed to what? Italy zoomed beyond before?

I don't know the ratio of unvaccinated Trump supporters, vs others, so can't accurately draw a line.  I do know that many of those that voice their objections loudly are Trump supporters.

Simply a media-induced assumption. I thought more of you because you have as much information to support that than a Somalian in Somalia. Which is NONE.

You'll have to specify what you mean by twist things. (see below)

To say at this point Timbuktoo is worse (or lacking) than Boondocks, when numbers are saying something otherwise, to support a narrative - yeah, it's twisting for a lack of a better term.

Would it be twisting if I pointed this about your position..."the USA's 'zooming' in its dire COVID cases this year, is directly as a result of the management of the pandemic by the culpability of the president you voted for in the same manner you did so and blamed Trump before?"

I agree with you, especially with large numbers at hand, which we unfortunately have.  Interpretation of those numbers, however, can be partially correct or even faulty.

If so, then why perpetually wallow on any comparative values between countries which you seem to be obsessed with? IMO, seem rather an exercise in exhausting futility to me.

I firmly believe that the measures and vaccination efforts in Italy will show a notable difference.  Let's see what happens.

Isn't this the same thing you were saying April/May 2020 when you cited the lack of mandated lockdowns in the US compared to Italy last year, too? Fast forward to 'now', the numbers tell otherwise.

Remember the 90-day Biden directive to find out the Wuhan theory? Where did that 'wait&see' landed 120 days later?

When does it end with you, and what is really your point in all these?

[BC]

There is a difference, massive, at least from the linear psychological effect part of it. If I told you that only 0.2% (point 2 percent- not 2%) of people die of toxic farts, it has much 'lesser' optic effect, than saying 2,140 people die for every million. Unless a person have a deeper numerical cognitive abilities, number presentation will always have a different reaction.

Ask someone if they would take .2% of a 330 million dollar lottery.  They'll understand quick enough.

You're describing IFR, not CFR. CFR is based on known reported cases. IFR includes an estimated % of asymptomatic and symptomatic cases.

You are correct, however different testing methods over time in different countries or places don't allow it to be used as a comparative value.  The CFR of the US is just that.  Deaths per capita is pretty much the same in most countries and can be used with a much smaller margin of error.

Zoomed past what? As opposed to what? Italy zoomed beyond before?

Deaths per capita.  The US fared better than Italy before vaccines, and now with vaccines has fared worse, surpassing deaths per capita in Italy.

Simply a media-induced assumption. I thought more of you because you have as much information to support that than a Somalian in Somalia. Which is NONE.

To say at this point Timbuktoo is worse (or lacking) than Boondocks, when numbers are saying something otherwise, to support a narrative - yeah, it's twisting for a lack of a better term.

Not really if the underlying data is sound.

Would it be twisting if I pointed this about your position..."the USA's 'zooming' in its dire COVID cases this year, is directly as a result of the management of the pandemic by the culpability of the president you voted for in the same manner you did so and blamed Trump before?"

If so, then why perpetually wallow on any comparative values between countries which you seem to be obsessed with? IMO, seem rather an exercise in exhausting futility to me.

Sure, Biden now carries responsibility. Based on the much better performance in other nations, there was, and is a lot of room for improvement.  Vaccine hesitancy is only one factor involved.

Isn't this the same thing you were saying April/May 2020 when you cited the lack of mandated lockdowns in the US compared to Italy last year, too? Fast forward to 'now', the numbers tell otherwise.

Yes, the US could have done much better, even halving or more the number of deaths.

Remember the 90-day Biden directive to find out the Wuhan theory? Where did that 'wait&see' landed 120 days later?

Sure I do.  They were not able to make a determination as to the source of the virus.

When does it end with you, and what is really your point in all these?

The point is that we could have done so much better overcoming this crisis and did not.  When others improved, we again did not.  We had all advantages goin for us and wasted them.

[fathertime]

I think I'm coming down more on the side of personal choice on vaccines.  I'm against the mandates.  There is a good argument to be made for SOME people not to get the shot.   I heard on dreaded talk radio that there is a way to get the antibodies test.  I should probably do that.   If I have the antibodies, I think I'd leave it at that.  If I didn't have the antibodies, I would more seriously consider getting the latest/greatest vaccination. 

Of course here in Los Angeles the restrictions are becoming more and more severe for the unvaccinated, so more and more people are getting their arms twisted into getting them.   Then those bloated vaccination numbers are touted as 'everybody is doing it', when really a significant percentage are bullied into it. 

Fathertime! 

[BC]

FT,

we've been 'bullied' to get vaccines since the first day we went to school.

[GQBlues]

Ask someone if they would take .2% of a 330 million dollar lottery.  They'll understand quick enough.

You still don't understand. If the lottery gives you a winning percentage of 99.98% of the time, would you buy a ticket, more or less than if I told you the chances of winning the lotto is 2,100 in a million?

Can you imagine if world-o-meter displays 'chances of survival rate of 98.3% instead of the daily body count? Are you getting this at all?

You are correct, however different testing methods over time in different countries or places don't allow it to be used as a comparative value.  The CFR of the US is just that.  Deaths per capita is pretty much the same in most countries and can be used with a much smaller margin of error.

No it isn't. Regardless how you try to deflect it. CFR in the US is CFR in Italy. Cold number is there, BC. In Italy, figuratively and literally, people have almost a 100% more chances of DYING after infection compared to the US. Why that is, you tell me...inferior medical facilities/methodology? Tribal/medieval approach to medicine (mini-miney-moo, who lives and who goes)? I have no idea.

Deaths per capita.  The US fared better than Italy before vaccines, and now with vaccines has fared worse, surpassing deaths per capita in Italy.

LMAO! October 7, 2021 - world-o-meter : 116 new deaths in the US, 41 in Italy. Extend that to 5.51 population ratio. I can help you out if you need it.

Not really if the underlying data is sound.

You have solid proofs and accurate accounting of this? You don't say! Mind posting that here?

You munch on way too much fake news, BC. There must be something else to do in Italy during your police-enforced lockdowns than drown yourself on tabloid TVs...No wonder Italians created a special name for it - *paparazzi* (I said that with an Italian accent for emphasis, too.

Here's a peak on what and how Americans handle their fear of covid: This was last night's game with LA's 'other' MLBers' win against St Louis. Players and fans alike aren't wearing those silly masks, and mind you, better than a good chance these are 'vaccinated' sheep believing they can't spread the virus around anymore, courtesy of course of the imbecile at the WH you helped make a mess of our country.

http://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/mlb/nl-wild-card-game-highlights-cardinals-vs-dodgers/vi-AAPdR4h

Sure, Biden now carries responsibility. Based on the much better performance in other nations, there was, and is a lot of room for improvement.  Vaccine hesitancy is only one factor involved.

...and may you feel responsible for that in silence and humility.

Yes, the US could have done much better, even halving or more the number of deaths.

Too late for that. The Democrats and the liberals had even made a coronation celebration to place Fauci in legendary status.


http://www.usatoday.com/story/tech/reviewed/2021/10/06/how-watch-anthony-fauci-documentary-disney-plus/6010283001/

Again, people who put these idiots into power ought to do some serious soul searching these days.

Sure I do.  They were not able to make a determination as to the source of the virus.

The entire world knew that already, BC. You were the one who held faith that this imbecile would actually make a difference and ushered us to wait and see...Fauci, the US cannot a) present evidence that WE ARE complicit into release of the virus, and b) at the same time give merit to Trump's early declaration that this came from the lab.

The point is that we could have done so much better overcoming this crisis and did not.  When others improved, we again did not.  We had all advantages goin for us and wasted them.

Could have done so much better? .217% mortality rate? Survival rate at better than 98%+ after infected? Any better than that, we've just be closer to 100% or no one dying at all!!

Listen, sad to those how passed away due to this virus. When greater than 90% of those who perished have at least one-two comorbidities, mostly why the older generation got hit the worst. it isn't so much the virus killing people, but the diseases and unhealthy state of the people that undid them. The virus simply hasten that imminent process.

Could have done better is people a) stop smoking, vaping, b) stop the super-sizing greasy burgers and fries, c) quit those high-sugar/fructose diets they stuff their mouths with, etc...

That's a much better 'could've, would've, should've'...both for Italians, Americans, Timbuktooians...

[BC]

You still don't understand. If the lottery gives you a winning percentage of 99.98% of the time, would you buy a ticket, more or less than if I told you the chances of winning the lotto is 2,100 in a million?

Can you imagine if world-o-meter displays 'chances of survival rate of 98.3% instead of the daily body count? Are you getting this at all?

I am 'getting it' GQ, only I understand that percentages always apply to the group being measured, and not the individual.  If I get COVID, I will either die, or not.  My personal odds remain 50/50.

No it isn't. Regardless how you try to deflect it. CFR in the US is CFR in Italy. Cold number is there, BC. In Italy, figuratively and literally, people have almost a 100% more chances of DYING after infection compared to the US. Why that is, you tell me...inferior medical facilities/methodology? Tribal/medieval approach to medicine (mini-miney-moo, who lives and who goes)? I have no idea.

Conclusions
The age structure of the cases explains much of differences in the crude CFRs between countries and adjusting for age substantially reduces this variation. Other factors such as the definition of cases, coding of deaths and the standard of healthcare are likely to account for much of the residual variation. It is misleading to compare the crude COVID-19 CFRs between countries and should be avoided. At the very least, age-specific and age-adjusted CFRs should be used for comparisons.

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0241031

LMAO! October 7, 2021 - world-o-meter : 116 new deaths in the US, 41 in Italy. Extend that to 5.51 population ratio. I can help you out if you need it.

The counting day is over in Italy, and not so in the US.  Try 7 day averages instead.  50 vs 1500 or so.  Italy's death counts are completed daily, with only small variation, whereas in the US death reporting can lag and exhibits wide daily variations.

You have solid proofs and accurate accounting of this? You don't say! Mind posting that here?

You do your homework, like you did above, and I'll be happy to proof it.

You munch on way too much fake news, BC. There must be something else to do in Italy during your police-enforced lockdowns than drown yourself on tabloid TVs...No wonder Italians created a special name for it - *paparazzi* (I said that with an Italian accent for emphasis, too.

No lockdowns in Italy for quite a while GQ.  No need for them.  Deaths are low, hospitalizations are low, vaccinations are high at 80% of over 12 years old, compliance with masking and mandates are high.  I am in the US and have observed in several cities and counties, with and without mandates. In cities where mandates exist, compliance is higher, resulting infections and death lower.  No magic involved.

Here's a peak on what and how Americans handle their fear of covid: This was last night's game with LA's 'other' MLBers' win against St Louis. Players and fans alike aren't wearing those silly masks, and mind you, better than a good chance these are 'vaccinated' sheep believing they can't spread the virus around anymore, courtesy of course of the imbecile at the WH you helped make a mess of our country.

I agree.  Mandates should be national and not local.  I believe Biden & Co should have pushed harder for them, especially with such a low vaccination rate.  I believe vaccinations + masking indoors or where distancing cannot be assured is the key.  This is clearly shown in all data I have seen and correlates to my personal observations in both countries.

...and may you feel responsible for that in silence and humility.

'twas the only viable vote.  I am convinced that under Trump it would be much worse.

Too late for that. The Democrats and the liberals had even made a coronation celebration to place Fauci in legendary status.

National problems need to be addressed with national and not state solutions.  CDC, Fauci et al should have been much more forceful on this, despite some improvement over the past regime.

Again, people who put these idiots into power ought to do some serious soul searching these days.

They must also recognize the threatening headwind our political system poses.

The entire world knew that already, BC. You were the one who held faith that this imbecile would actually make a difference and ushered us to wait and see...Fauci, the US cannot a) present evidence that WE ARE complicit into release of the virus, and b) at the same time give merit to Trump's early declaration that this came from the lab.

Where it came from is irrelevant.  What we do about it, or not, is very relevant.  Knowing where it came from may only help prevent same in the future.

Could have done so much better? .217% mortality rate? Survival rate at better than 98%+ after infected? Any better than that, we've just be closer to 100% or no one dying at all!!

If others are able to do better than we, we should be looking more closely at how and not be afraid to do the same.  Again, our 'exceptionalism' is killing us.

Listen, sad to those how passed away due to this virus. When greater than 90% of those who perished have at least one-two comorbidities, mostly why the older generation got hit the worst. it isn't so much the virus killing people, but the diseases and unhealthy state of the people that undid them. The virus simply hasten that imminent process.

As stated before, the majority of Americans have at least one and possibly two or more comorbidities. 

Could have done better is people a) stop smoking, vaping, b) stop the super-sizing greasy burgers and fries, c) quit those high-sugar/fructose diets they stuff their mouths with, etc...

Surely that would help, but other factors may be involved as well, even genetic.  Age, one of the most prominent factors, can't be avoided.

That's a much better 'could've, would've, should've'...both for Italians, Americans, Timbuktooians...

Sure.  Some countries have clearly learned from early mistakes and did better than we.  The bigger question is if we can learn from them.

I'm in the process of packing and will be traveling the next couple of days.  See you when I'm on the other side of the Atlantic.  I'll tackle the post vaccination myths and maths upon my return.

[GQBlues]

I am 'getting it' GQ, only I understand that percentages always apply to the group being measured, and not the individual.  If I get COVID, I will either die, or not.  My personal odds remain 50/50.

In the US, not true. Again. Survival rate is in excess of 98%. But then of course you live in Italy. So who knows.

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0241031

Not quite sure what your point in what you Googled and posted as a riposte to the subject of CFR. Then in Jeffrey Dahmer fashion, leave the link by its lonesome self and abandoned any point you’re running from.

1. It didn’t invalidated what I defined as CFR.
2.  If any, It gave a strong support in what I have been saying all along. A) results (deaths) vary due to more than a few reasons (even cited ‘standard of healthcare’ 🤪) and more importantly, it’s futile to compare countries, which you are prone to do.

You are starting to prove, and will deny this fact, that you’re arguing your own point now.

The counting day is over in Italy, and not so in the US.  Try 7 day averages instead.  50 vs 1500 or so.  Italy's death counts are completed daily, with only small variation, whereas in the US death reporting can lag and exhibits wide daily variations.

Italians are still dying as we speak, BC. I just posted that above! Now for a lack of either understanding of the subject on hand, you’re back to this silly 7-day nonsense for a desperate grasp at some silly point you’re searching for. I just gave you numbers above from the beginning of the pandemic to now, and showed you your pointless exercises and beliefs.

You do your homework, like you did above, and I'll be happy to proof it.

Ahh, the CNN/MSNBC shuffle. LMAO! Translation: it was just BS!

No lockdowns in Italy for quite a while GQ.  No need for them.  Deaths are low, hospitalizations are low, vaccinations are high at 80% of over 12 years old, compliance with masking and mandates are high.  I am in the US and have observed in several cities and counties, with and without mandates. In cities where mandates exist, compliance is higher, resulting infections and death lower.  No magic involved.

Again, Italians are still dying BC. Just as they are in the US and Timbuktoo. Vaccinated or otherwise, there are still immune compromised folks who are unfortunately still in vulnerable state.

I agree.  Mandates should be national and not local.  I believe Biden & Co should have pushed harder for them, especially with such a low vaccination rate.  I believe vaccinations + masking indoors or where distancing cannot be assured is the key.  This is clearly shown in all data I have seen and correlates to my personal observations in both countries.

This virus will continue to exist, period. It will continue to kill those with comorbidities. Vaccinated obese folks will almost certainty going to pay that price. This grim reaper is literally nature’s molecular point that only the strong will survive. The bone collector is making house calls, baby!

'twas the only viable vote.  I am convinced that under Trump it would be much worse.

At your age, best see your doctor. Something’s not clicking right with you. Your perception of lesser evil is off kilter. Allow me to remind you, at the least, it was under Trump’s management that the vaccine got done that you seem to cherish so much.

National problems need to be addressed with national and not state solutions.  CDC, Fauci et al should have been much more forceful on this, despite some improvement over the past regime.

How can Fauci and the company of vacillating idiots be more forceful when they keep changing their minds on what they tell people.

They must also recognize the threatening headwind our political system poses.

That the pandemic became political is directly caused and attributed to one political party in the US for the sole nefarious ambition to govern the purse of this country. We are blatantly witnessing that these very days!

Where it came from is irrelevant.  What we do about it, or not, is very relevant.  Knowing where it came from may only help prevent same in the future.

Can you see the fallacy of your arguments? Of course genesis of this, and any other catastrophic event, is enormously important to determine and understand. It is, and had always been, foremost in the ensuing development of counter measures, BC! What on earth are you talking about? They’ve done this methodology dealing with wildfires, pandemics, etc..

Why do you think those high-priced, well subsidized knuckleheads called scientists had been rummaging through Chinese caves playing with bats, for chrissakes!

They’ve even tried this application by feeding us faux science to extol dollars to combat the natural cycles of climate change.

If others are able to do better than we, we should be looking more closely at how and not be afraid to do the same.  Again, our 'exceptionalism' is killing us.

1. Yes. I am exceptional. You?
2. Others? Like who? You don’t mean Italians? No thanks. They choose who dies and who lives when things got a bit tight.

As stated before, the majority of Americans have at least one and possibly two or more comorbidities. 

Yeppers. It’s the same in the US, Italy and Timbuktoo. I tire of making this point incessantly. It’s starting to bore me.

Surely that would help, but other factors may be involved as well, even genetic.  Age, one of the most prominent factors, can't be avoided.

Age is simply the consequence of the natural health decline that espouses comorbidities. Age in of itself is not a causal consequence of severity of infection or even fatality. True our immune system weakens with age, but the primal reason people die of this virus is when our immune system is already at a weakened state fighting other antigens within our system.

Sure.  Some countries have clearly learned from early mistakes and did better than we.  The bigger question is if we can learn from them.

Who is this ‘we’? Learn what and from whom?

Your failure to grasp the very basic of this pandemic is evident by that statement. The fatality rate of each nation is dependent solely on the residing variable WITHIN that location and border. In every society, there's a percentage amount of people who are 'at-risk' of dying with this virus. That's just the lone and only fact to all of these. It had little to do on what time the sun shines in Australia or Ukraine.

Italians hid behind rat holes when the sh!t hit the fan there, and guess what, it didn't stop the spread and people kept dying from them. Asymptomatic folks lock-downed with their families for days viral shedding one another, LMAO! Vaccination DOES NOT prevent you from getting infected or spreading it. Vaccinated people (with comorbidities) are still dying. You bought wholesale into somehow believing you're invincible for being vaccinated. I am far more invincible than you being unvaccinated.

Get with the program and quit subscribing information from the main stream media. You're beginning to spread disinformation.

There's no hospitalization crisis in the US. Think of this VERY simply fact. At worst, in the initial case in NY, Trump's admin setup makeshift hospitals in addition to the ship Mercy anticipating overflow cases from hospitals. You know what happened there. Even considering there's now information that the Democrat Coumo intentionally falsified the dead count. The hospitalization crisis you (may have) watched on CNN/MSNBC are fake news to get people to get vaccinated. It's the same tactic used to convince the sheep population within us that Russian Collusion was real.

Lastly, can you name the countries that actually PRODUCED the vaccines you laud upon these days, BC? I doubt you’d find ‘Italy’ in that lot. So I ask - what exactly can the US learn from Italy? Land of paparazzi. Even Amanda Knox can attest to the veracity of that statement.

I'm in the process of packing and will be traveling the next couple of days.  See you when I'm on the other side of the Atlantic.  I'll tackle the post vaccination myths and maths upon my return.

Enjoy the flight. Please take a Democrat or two with you 😜 so we can 'Make America Great Again'.

[ML]

I am 'getting it' GQ, only I understand that percentages always apply to the group being measured, and not the individual.  If I get COVID, I will either die, or not.  My personal odds remain 50/50.

I disagree a little here, to split hairs.

Odds is a probability concept.

For instance, odds is used in horse racing.  Yes it is true that each horse will either win or not win.

But odds makers do not set the odds on each horse as 50/50.

Likewise, each person's odds of dying from any disease is not 50/50 but rather some probability based on person's overall health, etc.

[BC]

ML,

with horse racing, the odds are calculated on the past performance of individual horses.  The 'group' is the horse.

Such is not the case with vaccine studies.  There the group may be many thousand individuals and the statistics derived are for the whole group.

example:

Reading level survey.

Of 100 persons, 50 scored at 6th grade level, and 50 scored at 12th grade level.  The derived reading grade level for the group of 100 might be 9th grade, but none of the persons had a 9th grade reading level, or anything near it.

[ML]

BC what you last wrote may be true, but too complicated with respect to what I wrote to you.

For any one person who catches Covid, their odds of dying is NOT 50/50.

While it is true that odds of getting heads on the flip of a 'fair' coin is 50/50,

there are too many variables involved that determine whether a person  who has Covid will die from it to assert the same 50/50 odds.

[BC]

In the US, not true. Again. Survival rate is in excess of 98%. But then of course you live in Italy. So who knows.

See my reply to ML

Not quite sure what your point in what you Googled and posted as a riposte to the subject of CFR. Then in Jeffrey Dahmer fashion, leave the link by its lonesome self and abandoned any point you’re running from.

1. It didn’t invalidated what I defined as CFR.
2.  If any, It gave a strong support in what I have been saying all along. A) results (deaths) vary due to more than a few reasons (even cited ‘standard of healthcare’ 🤪) and more importantly, it’s futile to compare countries, which you are prone to do.

I thought you would read the conclusions:

Conclusions
The age structure of the cases explains much of differences in the crude CFRs between countries and adjusting for age substantially reduces this variation. Other factors such as the definition of cases, coding of deaths and the standard of healthcare are likely to account for much of the residual variation. It is misleading to compare the crude COVID-19 CFRs between countries and should be avoided. At the very least, age-specific and age-adjusted CFRs should be used for comparisons.

You are starting to prove, and will deny this fact, that you’re arguing your own point now.

I wasn't comparing CFR, you were.

Italians are still dying as we speak, BC. I just posted that above! Now for a lack of either understanding of the subject on hand, you’re back to this silly 7-day nonsense for a desperate grasp at some silly point you’re searching for. I just gave you numbers above from the beginning of the pandemic to now, and showed you your pointless exercises and beliefs.

Yes, since vaccination efforts began, they are dying at a rate that is substantially lower than the per capita rate in the US, which is my point.

Ahh, the CNN/MSNBC shuffle. LMAO! Translation: it was just BS!

No shuffle, just asking for your numbers.

Again, Italians are still dying BC. Just as they are in the US and Timbuktoo. Vaccinated or otherwise, there are still immune compromised folks who are unfortunately still in vulnerable state.

Almost all vulnerable in Italy have been vaccinated. 17.24% of those that died were vaccinated, the rest not.  Assuming, as you do, that most were in a vulnerable state, surely you agree vaccinations worked quite well or?

This virus will continue to exist, period. It will continue to kill those with comorbidities. Vaccinated obese folks will almost certainty going to pay that price. This grim reaper is literally nature’s molecular point that only the strong will survive. The bone collector is making house calls, baby!

Yes, along with some that do not have any comorbidities.

At your age, best see your doctor. Something’s not clicking right with you. Your perception of lesser evil is off kilter. Allow me to remind you, at the least, it was under Trump’s management that the vaccine got done that you seem to cherish so much.

Trump had absolutely nothing to do with the vaccine I was given. All Trump did was order in advance, like many other countries did.

How can Fauci and the company of vacillating idiots be more forceful when they keep changing their minds on what they tell people.

I do agree the message has been garbled.  Too many cooks stirring the pot each trying to tweak their own recipe.

That the pandemic became political is directly caused and attributed to one political party in the US for the sole nefarious ambition to govern the purse of this country. We are blatantly witnessing that these very days!

Trump tried to run the show, or?

Can you see the fallacy of your arguments? Of course genesis of this, and any other catastrophic event, is enormously important to determine and understand. It is, and had always been, foremost in the ensuing development of counter measures, BC! What on earth are you talking about? They’ve done this methodology dealing with wildfires, pandemics, etc..

There is a time to cry over spilled milk, now is not that time.  We may know more in the future, but it won't help with what is happening today.

Why do you think those high-priced, well subsidized knuckleheads called scientists had been rummaging through Chinese caves playing with bats, for chrissakes!

They’ve even tried this application by feeding us faux science to extol dollars to combat the natural cycles of climate change. [/quote]

They have been studying bats, the virus they carry, and the immunity system of bats for decades.  Bats don't die of this and many other viruses.  Don't you think it would be helpful to know what their immune system does that ours doesn't?

1. Yes. I am exceptional. You?
2. Others? Like who? You don’t mean Italians? No thanks. They choose who dies and who lives when things got a bit tight.

I don't feel my US passport gives me any exceptional powers. What the Italians and others are doing is working, so why ignore them?

Yeppers. It’s the same in the US, Italy and Timbuktoo. I tire of making this point incessantly. It’s starting to bore me.

Then stay bored.  It is a sign of denial.

Age is simply the consequence of the natural health decline that espouses comorbidities. Age in of itself is not a causal consequence of severity of infection or even fatality. True our immune system weakens with age, but the primal reason people die of this virus is when our immune system is already at a weakened state fighting other antigens within our system.

Science has given us the possibility to prolong our lives by many decades already.  We're now fighting to keep it that way.  Simple.

Who is this ‘we’? Learn what and from whom?

We in the US.  Learn from the experience of other countries.

Your failure to grasp the very basic of this pandemic is evident by that statement. The fatality rate of each nation is dependent solely on the residing variable WITHIN that location and border. In every society, there's a percentage amount of people who are 'at-risk' of dying with this virus. That's just the lone and only fact to all of these. It had little to do on what time the sun shines in Australia or Ukraine.

If so, what is your solution?  Do nothing?

Italians hid behind rat holes when the sh!t hit the fan there, and guess what, it didn't stop the spread and people kept dying from them. Asymptomatic folks lock-downed with their families for days viral shedding one another, LMAO! Vaccination DOES NOT prevent you from getting infected or spreading it. Vaccinated people (with comorbidities) are still dying. You bought wholesale into somehow believing you're invincible for being vaccinated. I am far more invincible than you being unvaccinated.

Vaccinations AND prudent use of masks lowers the number of infections considerably.  Lockdowns were used when these measures were not available.

Get with the program and quit subscribing information from the main stream media. You're beginning to spread disinformation.

I read and watch media of all types.

There's no hospitalization crisis in the US. Think of this VERY simply fact. At worst, in the initial case in NY, Trump's admin setup makeshift hospitals in addition to the ship Mercy anticipating overflow cases from hospitals. You know what happened there. Even considering there's now information that the Democrat Coumo intentionally falsified the dead count. The hospitalization crisis you (may have) watched on CNN/MSNBC are fake news to get people to get vaccinated. It's the same tactic used to convince the sheep population within us that Russian Collusion was real.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2021/09/17/hospitals-ration-care-covid/

Draw your own conclusions after reading. 

Lastly, can you name the countries that actually PRODUCED the vaccines you laud upon these days, BC? I doubt you’d find ‘Italy’ in that lot. So I ask - what exactly can the US learn from Italy? Land of paparazzi. Even Amanda Knox can attest to the veracity of that statement.

Vaccines don't inject themselves.  http://www.forbes.com/sites/giacomotognini/2021/07/23/covid-benefits-the-italian-billionaire-family-making-glass-vials-for-vaccines-scores-with-us-ipo/

Enjoy the flight. Please take a Democrat or two with you 😜 so we can 'Make America Great Again'.

Hahahahaha  You forget folks can vote from anywhere on the planet with just a few clicks on our computer

[BC]

there are too many variables involved that determine whether a person  who has Covid will die from it to assert the same 50/50 odds.

Indeed, there are a lot of variables.  Some, yet unknown, even genetics is being explored with several markers identified.  Vaccines have always been a shotgun approach.  Some folks die of influenza, some don't.  Would be great if everyone got the flu shot, though.

[GQBlues]

..greased-up verbosity void of substantive content

Take it from someone who actually follow the science and NOT the partisan hacking you seem to subscribe to. You no longer show any semblance of rational thought due your deep emotional and political indoctrination.

If you're not satisfied with 'his' scientific explanation, then blame that idiot you voted for the way you blamed the last administration for the pandemic.


Next time, compare your pasta-logic and call it chow mein. Soon 'nuff it'll be one and the same anyway. Mini-mini, miney, moo - who dies and who goes!

[BC]

GQ,

I watched the video a week or so ago.  I have no qualms with Dr Campbell's assessment.

Here in EU, since you tested positive, you would qualify for a green pass for 6 months, maybe longer as more evidence of the qualities of natural immunity vs vaccines develops.

Dr Campbell also was quite clear about the approach with vaccine mandates vs testing the population, and that the simplest approach is to mandate vaccines vs the individual approach with extensive and expensive testing prior.

I already agree with you that the approach in the US has been more politicized and haphazard than in other countries.  A 'green pass' approach presents a much clearer path forward.  Unfortunately, due to politics, the US has a fairly large unvaccinated population that does not want to accept a green pass approach, AND don't want to accept the straightforward green pass approach.

Obviously, this has resulted in higher hospitalizations and deaths in the US vs other countries.

Pretty easy eh?

[GQBlues]

GQ,

I watched the video a week or so ago.  I have no qualms with Dr Campbell's assessment.

Here in EU, since you tested positive, you would qualify for a green pass for 6 months, maybe longer as more evidence of the qualities of natural immunity vs vaccines develops.

Dr Campbell also was quite clear about the approach with vaccine mandates vs testing the population, and that the simplest approach is to mandate vaccines vs the individual approach with extensive and expensive testing prior.

I already agree with you that the approach in the US has been more politicized and haphazard than in other countries.  A 'green pass' approach presents a much clearer path forward.  Unfortunately, due to politics, the US has a fairly large unvaccinated population that does not want to accept a green pass approach, AND don't want to accept the straightforward green pass approach.

You still failed to recognize a very basic, fundamental fact of what is going on in the US main street. Considering you actually spent time here recently, you still managed to miss why there's dissent towards the federal mandates as they are being fed to the population.

The entire COVID scare and all the silly mandate is/are causing massive economic impact in every sector of the labor industry. The Long Beach port-of-entry have a massive jam of ships waiting to be unloaded due to local mandates and lack of labor force to unload/truck, etc...the products to hit the demands, and in turn, not enough 'empty' containers and export goods to get set on along its way.

That stick trailing your behind is so caught-up in Italy-is-better-yadayada logic is so prevalent in your psyche as though you're desperately justifying your decision to live in the alleged utopia in your mind.

BC, Italy no longer have an identity of its own without the Chinese 'Lee' tag line. Why on earth would the US wanna copy that? Italy is China's bit*h these days.

Obviously, this has resulted in higher hospitalizations and deaths in the US vs other countries.Pretty easy eh?

I hope one of these days your knowledge of numeric relationships will enlighten you much better on how to view logic and relativity in our world.

'Higher' in number is a direct result of larger sampling leading to greater frequency. You seem to struggle with this fairly basic relationship. Maybe that's a direct result of you living in Italy much too long.


That's pretty sad, BC.

[GQBlues]

...
I thought you would read the conclusions:

I wasn't comparing CFR, you were...

Pure unadulterated bullsh!t! That fact is pestered in your every post. It's futile trying to debate with someone with a roving goal post.

Hahahahaha  You forget folks can vote from anywhere on the planet with just a few clicks on our computer

I didn't forget. I realize not too many people have the spine to back their conviction, is all...maybe call it hopeful inference. This nation can't fly like an eagle it once did with the growing number of turkeys around it.


Go Biden, eh?! Yipeeee...

[BC]

You still failed to recognize a very basic, fundamental fact of what is going on in the US main street. Considering you actually spent time here recently, you still managed to miss why there's dissent towards the federal mandates as they are being fed to the population.

The entire COVID scare and all the silly mandate is/are causing massive economic impact in every sector of the labor industry. The Long Beach port-of-entry have a massive jam of ships waiting to be unloaded due to local mandates and lack of labor force to unload/truck, etc...the products to hit the demands, and in turn, not enough 'empty' containers and export goods to get set on along its way.

Sure, logistics is experiencing a perfect storm with many causes, COVID being one of them.  The blocked Suez Canal was another disruptive factor and the industry is still reeling from that as well.  It was expected that that event alone put shipping on an uneven keel that would take many months to straighten itself out, and it will, with time.  Until then, no one is going to starve, and some positive aspects may come about as well.  Warehouses and aisles are full of boxed goods at Walmart and other stores that isn't getting on the shelf, filling warehouses. Goods are being stored in ocean containers, causing a shortage.  With months of 100k daily infections, a good part of the workforce is infected and can't work.  Places where most folks are vaccinated and are using masks have less of a labor problem.  And you wonder why Biz wants vaccine and mask mandates?  Maybe you are dwelling in the problem instead of the solution?

http://www.businessinsider.com/suez-canal-reopened-supply-chain-issues-shipping-delays-experts-2021-3?r=US&IR=T

That stick trailing your behind is so caught-up in Italy-is-better-yadayada logic is so prevalent in your psyche as though you're desperately justifying your decision to live in the alleged utopia in your mind.

BC, Italy no longer have an identity of its own without the Chinese 'Lee' tag line. Why on earth would the US wanna copy that? Italy is China's bit*h these days.

No worries about psyche here, GQ.  Your inability to accept critique is more telling.  Italy is not a loner.  Quite a few countries are doing much better than we in the US.  Why so intent on blaming them for *whatever*, when the problem is ours in the US?

I hope one of these days your knowledge of numeric relationships will enlighten you much better on how to view logic and relativity in our world.

'Higher' in number is a direct result of larger sampling leading to greater frequency. You seem to struggle with this fairly basic relationship. Maybe that's a direct result of you living in Italy much too long.


That's pretty sad, BC.

Numbers of deaths are not due to over or under-sampling.  Figures I quoted are population adjusted. That a high number of deaths rides on a wave of high hospitalizations and infections is a given.  Again, what is your solution?  Is it still do nothing and act as if the virus never existed?  Someone in power tried that before.  It didn't work out well, did it?

[BC]

Pure unadulterated bullsh!t! That fact is pestered in your every post. It's futile trying to debate with someone with a roving goal post.

That is why I stick to deaths per million as a good, raw, reference point to gauge performance. It's not a fuzzy number.  After all, dead is dead, and it doesn't take a statistician to count.

I didn't forget. I realize not too many people have the spine to back their conviction, is all...maybe call it hopeful inference. This nation can't fly like an eagle it once did with the growing number of turkeys around it.

Go Biden, eh?! Yipeeee...

Whatever floats your boat, GQ!

[GQBlues]

Sure, logistics is experiencing a perfect storm with many causes, COVID being one of them.  The blocked Suez Canal was another disruptive factor and the industry is still reeling from that as well.  It was expected that that event alone put shipping on an uneven keel that would take many months to straighten itself out, and it will, with time.  Until then, no one is going to starve, and some positive aspects may come about as well.  Warehouses and aisles are full of boxed goods at Walmart and other stores that isn't getting on the shelf, filling warehouses. Goods are being stored in ocean containers, causing a shortage.  With months of 100k daily infections, a good part of the workforce is infected and can't work.  Places where most folks are vaccinated and are using masks have less of a labor problem.  And you wonder why Biz wants vaccine and mask mandates?  Maybe you are dwelling in the problem instead of the solution?

http://www.businessinsider.com/suez-canal-reopened-supply-chain-issues-shipping-delays-experts-2021-3?r=US&IR=T

You Google waaay too much. The least you can do before posing is understand if it relates to the subject at hand. The current case of stagnancy have ZERO to do with blocked Suez canal, LOL. That was back in March. Why don't you read 'actual' news for a change.

http://www.nytimes.com/2021/10/11/business/supply-chain-crisis-savannah-port.html
http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/sep/22/cargo-ships-traffic-jam-los-angeles-california

No worries about psyche here, GQ.  Your inability to accept critique is more telling.  Italy is not a loner.  Quite a few countries are doing much better than we in the US.  Why so intent on blaming them for *whatever*, when the problem is ours in the US?

Inability to accept critique? LMAO! It isn't like our healthcare system came down to having to choose who dies and who lives. What's to criticize about the US? Methinks you're the one holding that rotting bag, BC.


Quite a few countries doing better?!? Here I thought you just passed the whole 'comparison' BS to me, yet there you are again...

I'll help you out, and put these 'facts' in your 'thinking' cap for a change:

1. In the US, latest study revealed that only 12% of American adults are metabolically healthy. Equate what that means relative to comorbidities/COVID.

2. Demographic distribution in the US. Blacks and Latinos have a high number represent the larger group of metabolically unhealthy in the US. Thus, comparing apples to oranges is just plain silly.

Numbers of deaths are not due to over or under-sampling.  Figures I quoted are population adjusted. That a high number of deaths rides on a wave of high hospitalizations and infections is a given.

LMAO! I'm sure with your mathematic skill set, it is. See sample below. Population, # of deaths, and your favorite death/million, grasshopper. 'See if you notice anything at all and how it relates'!

  Again, what is your solution?  Is it still do nothing and act as if the virus never existed?  Someone in power tried that before.  It didn't work out well, did it?

Solution? Stop politicizing the virus for starters. Mind your health to insure your immunity system is prepared for such intrusion. How's that?

There's never been a cure to any virus man had ever encountered, and COVID is not any different. If you have the silly idea that somehow Italy or anyone found the cure for the virus, then my suspicion is spot-on!

That is why I stick to deaths per million as a good, raw, reference point to gauge performance. It's not a fuzzy number.  After all, dead is dead, and it doesn't take a statistician to count.

So is this an admission you were the one comparing apples to oranges, right?

Whatever floats your boat, GQ!

Always persevering to Make America Great Again nipping one turkey at a time!    Go Joe!

[BC]

You Google waaay too much. The least you can do before posing is understand if it relates to the subject at hand. The current case of stagnancy have ZERO to do with blocked Suez canal, LOL. That was back in March. Why don't you read 'actual' news for a change.

Do read 'actual' news.  The snowball effect of the Suez blockage still lingers. 

http://blog.flexis.com/expected-shipping-challenges-of-2021

Inability to accept critique? LMAO! It isn't like our healthcare system came down to having to choose who dies and who lives. What's to criticize about the US? Methinks you're the one holding that rotting bag, BC.

Wrong.

http://www.wsj.com/articles/overwhelmed-by-covid-19-patients-alaskas-doctors-make-life-and-death-decisions-11633253401
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/covid-us-hospital-icu-bed-shortage-veteran-dies-treatable-illness/
http://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2021/09/12/alabama-ray-demonia-hospitals-icu/
http://www.vox.com/coronavirus-covid19/2021/9/14/22650733/us-covid-19-hospitals-full-texas-alabama
http://www.idahostatesman.com/news/coronavirus/article253629758.html

Quite a few countries doing better?!? Here I thought you just passed the whole 'comparison' BS to me, yet there you are again...

I'll help you out, and put these 'facts' in your 'thinking' cap for a change:

1. In the US, latest study revealed that only 12% of American adults are metabolically healthy. Equate what that means relative to comorbidities/COVID.

2. Demographic distribution in the US. Blacks and Latinos have a high number represent the larger group of metabolically unhealthy in the US. Thus, comparing apples to oranges is just plain silly.

Hospitalizations and deaths from COVID is highly preventable, even for those with comorbidities.  It seems you are simply looking for someone to blame for missing the bus.  It's not like vaccines and masks are not available nowadays.

LMAO! I'm sure with your mathematic skill set, it is. See sample below. Population, # of deaths, and your favorite death/million, grasshopper. 'See if you notice anything at all and how it relates'!

Sure, I notice that states with low vaccination rates and mask usage experience higher hospitalization and death rates.  Again, COVID is now preventable.

Solution? Stop politicizing the virus for starters. Mind your health to insure your immunity system is prepared for such intrusion. How's that?

There's never been a cure to any virus man had ever encountered, and COVID is not any different. If you have the silly idea that somehow Italy or anyone found the cure for the virus, then my suspicion is spot-on!

COVID can't yet be cured, but an overwhelming portion of hospitalizations and deaths can now be prevented.

So is this an admission you were the one comparing apples to oranges, right?

Not in the context I am using.  While you are correct the US has higher rates with some comorbidities like obesity, Italy has a much older population that is more susceptible to ill effects of COVID.  Regardless, and again, since December 2020 vaccines and masks are available to anyone who wants them.  Countries that have high vaccination rates and mask mandates have fared better than the US in 2021.  This is a fact.

Always persevering to Make America Great Again nipping one turkey at a time!    Go Joe!

Thanksgiving is a ways off still.

[GQBlues]

Do read 'actual' news.  The snowball effect of the Suez blockage still lingers. 

http://blog.flexis.com/expected-shipping-challenges-of-2021

A Blog!! And he thinks it’s ‘news’. Grasping….straws! LMAO.

Hell, I’m wasting time debating with someone who in apparent desperation fails to distinguish the difference in *because of* from *additionally*!

Wrong.

http://www.wsj.com/articles/overwhelmed-by-covid-19-patients-alaskas-doctors-make-life-and-death-decisions-11633253401
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/covid-us-hospital-icu-bed-shortage-veteran-dies-treatable-illness/
http://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2021/09/12/alabama-ray-demonia-hospitals-icu/
http://www.vox.com/coronavirus-covid19/2021/9/14/22650733/us-covid-19-hospitals-full-texas-alabama
http://www.idahostatesman.com/news/coronavirus/article253629758.html

There you go, another slimy move to pretend it’s apples to apples. What Italians did was barbaric! No other civilized nation did what they did.

Hospitalizations and deaths from COVID is highly preventable, even for those with comorbidities.  It seems you are simply looking for someone to blame for missing the bus.  It's not like vaccines and masks are not available nowadays.

Non-sensical. Vaccinated folks have died of covid. Why do you think they’ve even began the silly booster shots?

Sure, I notice that states with low vaccination rates and mask usage experience higher hospitalization and death rates.  Again, COVID is now preventable.

Man, you are slow! No wonder you live in Italy. I even attached a frame to make it easier for you, yet there you are, falls out of the boat and still missed the water!!!

COVID can't yet be cured, but an overwhelming portion of hospitalizations and deaths can now be prevented.

You are a child of sensationalized news. It was estimated, even before the vaccine, in excess of 80% of people infected of covid are *asymptomatic*! On top of that, in excess of 98% of those who survived the virus are much MORE protected than even those who got the vaccine!

Sheesh BC, at least BillyB makes a modicum of sense now and then.

Not in the context I am using.  While you are correct the US has higher rates with some comorbidities like obesity, Italy has a much older population that is more susceptible to ill effects of COVID.  Regardless, and again, since December 2020 vaccines and masks are available to anyone who wants them.  Countries that have high vaccination rates and mask mandates have fared better than the US in 2021.  This is a fact.

Ahh, it’s time for rule change, I see. Sorry, but just in sheer numbers, there are far more old farts in the US than Italy, go ask Democrat Cuomo, the molester. So that’s a dead end for you to weasel out of.

Thanksgiving is a ways off still.

[/quote]

Picking Apples and oranges, apples and oranges, BC likes to go…