Men

[Chelseaboy]

WTF happened to men ?


When i was in my twenties very few men would be interested in starting a relationship with a woman who already had kids...the mere mention of the dreaded words "i've got a kid/kids " from a woman would send the vast majority of blokes running to get away.


If she was particularly hot she'd be ok for a one night stand..then the bloke would be outta there.


Nowadays,i see young blokes taking on women with kids ....i see blokes travelling to other countries,including the FSU, and taking on other mens  kids.


I've never taken on another blokes kids...and never will.


Have men become soooo desperate they'll do anything to have a woman by their side ?

[GQBlues]

I cited the same observation here not too long. But the reality is, such as the women of the MOB, men involved in the endeavor, generally, are atypical themselves. The MoB is hardly a total representation of pairings and relationships in what can call ‘normal’.

It’s easy to witness these occurrences from the perspectives of what we grew up from, but for those who have an opportunity to move up a level or two in terms of landing in a relationship with a gal they can only dream about at home, parenting her child or more is the ‘cost’ most are willing to ‘pay’.   

[Sailor291]

I’m really not sure what you think the problem is.  I married a Ukrainian woman 22 years ago, she had an 8 year old daughter.  Almost from the very start she has considered me her father and is a wonderful daughter to me/us.  I legally adopted her many years ago and have never regretted it for an instant.  She is now married too and we have a granddaughter that we both worship.  I can’t imagine my life any other way. 

[Trenchcoat]

WTF happened to men ?


When i was in my twenties very few men would be interested in starting a relationship with a woman who already had kids...the mere mention of the dreaded words "i've got a kid/kids " from a woman would send the vast majority of blokes running to get away.


If she was particularly hot she'd be ok for a one night stand..then the bloke would be outta there.


Nowadays,i see young blokes taking on women with kids ....i see blokes travelling to other countries,including the FSU, and taking on other mens  kids.


I've never taken on another blokes kids...and never will.


Have men become soooo desperate they'll do anything to have a woman by their side ?

Yes is the short answer, they have become so desperate

I remember back in the nineties my Father saying to me that he would never get with a woman and bring up someone else's kids that he would feel like a mug if he did so, basically that he would be cleaning up after another man's sex life. He was of course married to my Mother so it was an entirely hypothetical conversation but the argument and the reason seemed sound to me. I personally feel similar that someone else's children are not my responsibility, that they are the guys responsibility whoever knocked them out. Only just now I've been on Tinder and left swiped (rejected) any profiles where they had kids, if they have two or more the more it turns me off. Now I get on and enjoy being around kids but I would just feel used and yes like a mug for paying up for someone else's kids and spending good years of my life, time and effort bringing them up.

Now if they had just one child, the girl I found hot, there seemed to be chemistry and we got on then I would consider it and yes if she was up for it probably go for it. On that grounds though I would see the positives as overusing the big negative off one child not being mine. There would of course be room for me to have more children with the girl. In general though for nearly all girls it would be a no go for me, yes I would feel like a mug, used and cleaning up after another guts sex life so unless the girl brought something special to the party to compensate then no it's not my responsibility to pick up after other guys.

But yes CB, I do see many guys willing to date women with kids these days. Its kind of bizarre it's almost like they are kipping over in someone else's family. I don't think a lot of younger guys these days have great values in this respect they have become desperate so desperate that they are willing to be used by a girl to clean up after other guys sex lives. It's like they rate themselves as only worthy of that, the quality second runner up sort of guy. I think if guys weren't so much like that girls today would learn that they need to be careful of who they get with and make sure the guy is reliable before knocking out kids that and not being too willing themselves to walk away from a relationship. I saw one article recently online where the woman split up from the father after he feel asleep in hospital missing the birth (apparently he had been working so end of shift) and because he ate in front of her while she wasn't allowed food. I mean how ridiculous to end a relationship over such trifles and become a single parent family and estrange the Father from the child. Women unfortunately these days are just acting on a whim and pleasing themselves. For the most part I wouldn't touch one with a barge pole.

[Davo]

I can’t comment on young guys, but if you already have children you’re thoughts might be different.

I’m in my mid 40’s and have children. At this stage in my life all the local woman I dated and most women in general have children too...... The first women I dated after my divorce was 11 years younger than me..... Despite now being 6 years older and I don’t want a woman with younger children, at the time I quickly grew to love her 3 year old daughter as much as I love my own children...... It didn’t matter that she wasn’t biologically my child, because it didn’t diminish my natural fatherly instincts. Her having a child brought another wonderful dimension to our relationship.

When it comes to FSU women I’ve only chatted with women with children and that goes for the couple I’ve met in real life. Realistically, being open to meeting women with children more than triples the dating pool available to you, but that’s not my driving motivation.

I won’t date a woman without children and that’s my preference. It has nothing to do with being desperate..... I have a 5 bedroom house and two adult children who have moved out and have two teenagers who spend 50 percent of their time between my house and their mothers..... Without children in my house it feels strange and almost depressing. Having the energy and fun a teenager and their friends bring to your life is a awesome experience..... It keeps you feeling young. I can’t think of anything better than having more children in my family, especially one from another culture..... It would be an fantastic experience for my children too.

It all comes down to perspective...... I see men who don’t want children, be it their own or another man’s as missing out on one of life’s most rewarding experiences...... Am I desperate for wanting something that brings meaning and happiness to my life?

[Davo]

Trench, humour me..... Go on a dating site and message 20 FSU women with children around your age and see how many replies you get. If any reply, move them off the site and try to keep them interested in you for a week..... I guarantee it will be a wake up call for you.

Single mothers aren’t desperate women. Most have lived for extended periods of time without a partner and it usually takes an exceptional man to change that...... They look for a good role model for their children and a constant partner. They will scrutinize you way more than most single women....... Even a single mother from Siberia, who works minimum wage and lives with her parents, knows her value.

[Chelseaboy]

I have a son....i raised him as a single dad from when he was twelve years old.


When his mother ( my then wife ) and i  split-up he chose to stay with me.


I wouldn't have wanted any other woman involved in his upbringing.


I wouldn't dream of taking on another mans kid/kids ...they're his and hers responsibility not mine.


No wonder it's the women in the UK who are the biggest instigators of divorce ( almost 70 % )..there's always some mug round the corner who'll take up the slack in raising her kids.

[Boethius]

Only about 30% of divorced women remarry.  Over half of all remarriages have no children, but in those that do, 25% have children only from the woman, and 9% have children from both partners.


I think whether you will accept a partner with children is a very personal decision.  It's not about "being a mug".  It's what each person wants in their life.

[Chelseaboy]

Only about 30% of divorced women remarry.  Over half of all remarriages have no children, but in those that do, 25% have children only from the woman, and 9% have children from both partners.


I think whether you will accept a partner with children is a very personal decision.  It's not about "being a mug".  It's what each person wants in their life.

I wonder how many of the 70 % divorced women who don't remarry stay alone ?


I reckon the majority shack up with some bloke on a common-law basis..with her kids thrown in as part of the package.

[Davo]

Only about 30% of divorced women remarry.  Over half of all remarriages have no children, but in those that do, 25% have children only from the woman, and 9% have children from both partners.


I think whether you will accept a partner with children is a very personal decision.  It's not about "being a mug".  It's what each person wants in their life.

Is that a stat from a western country or FSU or just in general?

When I look at my divorced friends, probably half have new long term partners and won’t remarry .... some remarried and the others are enjoying the bachelor lifestyle....... From what I can see, many  older divorcées (40+) see getting married to their new partners a waste of money as they work towards retirement.

[fathertime]

When younger, it would have to have been a really exceptional situation for me to take on a woman with child.  I simply didn't want that responsibility on top of what I already had.    Now as I'm a lot older, I wouldn't considered it a deal breaker.   My lady and I are caring for her niece nowadays, and it has been a good experience.    When she eventually goes, I'll miss having her around.     Of course some of the decision would be based on the child him/herself.   I would not take on a woman with a bratty child...that would still be a deal breaker.  I wouldn't want a part of the responsibility, and possibly being hampered in how to handle discipline.   

Fathertime! 

[rwd123]

Have men become soooo desperate they'll do anything to have a woman by their side ?

Yes.

Dating has completely transformed due to the internet/smart phones/Instagram/dating apps etc. More men are getting no sex and there are more male virgins (20-29). They don't have options.

Provisioning for another man's children doesn't seem like a good idea for younger men (or older ones for that matter).

[John Gaunt]

I’m really not sure what you think the problem is.  I married a Ukrainian woman 22 years ago, she had an 8 year old daughter.  Almost from the very start she has considered me her father and is a wonderful daughter to me/us.  I legally adopted her many years ago and have never regretted it for an instant.  She is now married too and we have a granddaughter that we both worship.  I can’t imagine my life any other way.

Good man, you. 

[Boethius]

Is that a stat from a western country or FSU or just in general?

When I look at my divorced friends, probably half have new long term partners and won’t remarry .... some remarried and the others are enjoying the bachelor lifestyle....... From what I can see, many  older divorcées (40+) see getting married to their new partners a waste of money as they work towards retirement.

From Western countries. 

Yes.

Dating has completely transformed due to the internet/smart phones/Instagram/dating apps etc. More men are getting no sex and there are more male virgins (20-29). They don't have options.

Provisioning for another man's children doesn't seem like a good idea for younger men (or older ones for that matter).

Forced celibacy is on the rise, but it is still very rare. 


http://ifstudies.org/blog/male-sexlessness-is-rising-but-not-for-the-reasons-incels-claim


Most young people still meet partners through school or work, rather than dating apps.

[rwd123]

Forced celibacy is on the rise, but it is still very rare. 

http://ifstudies.org/blog/male-sexlessness-is-rising-but-not-for-the-reasons-incels-claim
Most young people still meet partners through school or work, rather than dating apps.

28% is not rare: http://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2019/03/29/share-americans-not-having-sex-has-reached-record-high/

Even > 12% is not rare. It's one in eight and double what it was a decade earlier.

I didn't make any claims of where people meet partners. I said the internet has transformed dating. It has. Behaviors and expectations are radically different. Marriage rates also point to a change in cultural attitudes towards relationships.

It is fundamentally harder for young men to have access to sex unless they are highly attractive, of which that cohort have an abundance of options. Those struggling for options may opt for single mothers.

[Boethius]

I disagree with you.  I think what has changed is, as the article points out, later marriages.  In 1972, the average age for a man for first marriage was 25.  In 2020, it was 33.  It was common, even in the 1990's for children to move out of their parents' home when they started university, or at the latest, when they finished it.  Now, it is not uncommon for children in the workforce, pushing 30 or older, to be living at home in major cities.  That's the reason for decreased sex.

It is fundamentally harder for young men to have access to sex unless they are highly attractive, of which that cohort have an abundance of options. Those struggling for options may opt for single mothers.

I don't think it's that huge of an issue for GenZ.  Almost 1/3 of them identify as pansexual.

[rwd123]

I disagree with you.  I think what has changed is, as the article points out, later marriages.  In 1972, the average age for a man for first marriage was 25.  In 2020, it was 33.  It was common, even in the 1990's for children to move out of their parents' home when they started university, or at the latest, when they finished it.  Now, it is not uncommon for children in the workforce, pushing 30 or older, to be living at home in major cities.  That's the reason for decreased sex.

I was (primarily) talking about sex not marriage.

Rates of sexless women have roughly remained flat over the same period. The rise in sexlessness is largely constrained to men. Women are still having sex but with a smaller group of men.

The rise coincides with the release of smart phones (2007) and apps such as Instagram (2009). Instagram is the number one dating app in the world even though it is not strictly considered as one.

Women's attitudes toward sex and relationship have been transformed by technology. It's not the only the factor but the primary factor in the rise of sexless men. Economic conditions (as you mentioned) and legal changes to the benefit of women are other factors.

The culture of the generation raised on smart phones is foreign to your own culture, particularly when it comes to the dynamics of intersexual relationships.

More men have less access to sex. Single mothers offer some access where they would otherwise have none.

[Trenchcoat]

 

[John Gaunt]

I have a son....i raised him as a single dad from when he was twelve years old.


When his mother ( my then wife ) and i  split-up he chose to stay with me.


I wouldn't have wanted any other woman involved in his upbringing.

That’s fair enough. Nothing wrong with that.

I wouldn't dream of taking on another mans kid/kids ...they're his and hers responsibility not mine.

Again, your choice. That’s not to say that the choices other men make are any less worthy.

No wonder it's the women in the UK who are the biggest instigators of divorce ( almost 70 % )..there's always some mug round the corner who'll take up the slack in raising her kids.

The demographics of marriage are changing. Women have children later in life.
Combine that with an increase in divorces and the pool of available women without children is suddenly much smaller.

And what if women who enter relationships where the men have children. Are they suddenly emasculated women as well?

[ML]

Quote
It is fundamentally harder for young men to have access to sex unless they are highly attractive, of which that cohort have an abundance of options. Those struggling for options may opt for single mothers.

I don't think it's that huge of an issue for GenZ.  Almost 1/3 of them identify as pansexual.

Boe, I don't understand your reply.  Can you elaborate please ?

[Chelseaboy]

And what if women who enter relationships where the men have children. Are they suddenly emasculated women as well?

When i was looking at dating sites a few years ago i was struck by how many women stipulated in their profiles that they are not interested in men who have kids at home.


This applied to FSU and UK dating sites equally.


Trench is more up to date on dating sites than me,so he may give an update on this.


Seems to me that whist men are now willing to take on someone else's kids in their desperation to find a partner, the majority of women are not...probably because the majority of women are not so desperate as men.

[GQBlues]

I was (primarily) talking about sex not marriage.

Rates of sexless women have roughly remained flat over the same period. The rise in sexlessness is largely constrained to men. Women are still having sex but with a smaller group of men.

The rise coincides with the release of smart phones (2007) and apps such as Instagram (2009). Instagram is the number one dating app in the world even though it is not strictly considered as one.

Women's attitudes toward sex and relationship have been transformed by technology. It's not the only the factor but the primary factor in the rise of sexless men. Economic conditions (as you mentioned) and legal changes to the benefit of women are other factors.

The culture of the generation raised on smart phones is foreign to your own culture, particularly when it comes to the dynamics of intersexual relationships.

More men have less access to sex. Single mothers offer some access where they would otherwise have none.

Unless I missed or misunderstood the point being made here, I'm prone to disagree both with my personal experience, or by extrapolation.

I lived a heinously promiscuous sexual life during my single years pre-internet era. Yet, early '90s birth of AOL's chat rooms only exploded my sexual reach both nationally, and eventually globally. My sexual experiences and conquests exploded in even greater number.

Even early in my FSU pursuit, I gave a world of credit to implementing my webspace approach (vs. email/phone to heighten both the intrigue and the desire) with pretty much every women I picked. I literally had a captive audience. Women seemed couldn't get enough of 'me' before I took my first trip. The women made me feel their anxiousness and tension half a world away.

If I was still young and single today, FB, Instagram, TikTok, etc...(I would think) only give me greater chances of sexing-up the lustfully crazed and the sexed-up and unsexed females at large. Why should these media be a deterrent to a seemingly easier 'hook-up' venues? They would be an awesome complimenting venues to local hook-ups...

[Jumper1]

WTF happened to men ?


When i was in my twenties very few men would be interested in starting a relationship with a woman who already had kids...the mere mention of the dreaded words "i've got a kid/kids " from a woman would send the vast majority of blokes running to get away.


If she was particularly hot she'd be ok for a one night stand..then the bloke would be outta there.


Nowadays,i see young blokes taking on women with kids ....i see blokes travelling to other countries,including the FSU, and taking on other mens  kids.


I've never taken on another blokes kids...and never will.


Have men become soooo desperate they'll do anything to have a woman by their side ?

That's a leading question.

Willingness and even a desire  to be a father to a child that isnt biologically a mans, doesn't require it being related to wanting a wife or woman.

It can be a factor,   but your question is phrased to be the only sole motivation.

Hardly accurate overall

Just because a younger group was generally less interested in settling down with family is equally nothing more than it's ever been.
They still are generally not interested in having kids or raising someone elses.

I've never raised someone elses child ,but would welcome it and enjoy it.
As  a young man in my  early 20s i wouldnt have been interested in either at the time.
.

My father adopted my younger brother, sure he was briefly married to his mother,but he adopting him and raised him after divorce. Initially he would be interested , as he enjoyed it,and certainly did not do so from.desparation, and afterward my brother lived with my father.

I think  attributing a mans openess to being a father ,to desparation, is sad.

I'm sure glad my father did not have that view, nor would several friends of mine that were  adopted .

If you seperate them adopting as sz couple vs, a man willing to raise a child that a woman has already you are really splitting hairs without having much to base how those men actually feel in the subject.

I'm sure there are cases of guys  desperate and willing  to *deal with it* against there feelings in the subject.

Seems a horrible way to look at a child to me.

[rwd123]

Unless I missed or misunderstood the point being made here, I'm prone to disagree both with my personal experience, or by extrapolation.

For the majority of young men it is objectively harder for them to have sex than in the past. For the most desirable of men it is much easier; dating apps are like UberEats for sex. So it may be easier for you but worse for average men.

Young women are far more selective. There's a rise of sugar daddy relationships in the West which reduces the pool for younger men. Dating is also less localised, which means women can select from suitors from anywhere in the world if their suitors have the financial means - through social media and smart phones. Technology has transformed the dating market as much as it has transformed commercial markets.

Young men are getting less sex. Contrary to what Boe thinks, young men still want sex. For some the only access is single mothers.

The 'in my day' line is frivolous. The courtship years of my grandparents are incomparable to that of the current generation. It's a different culture now. Women in their 20s have always lived with smart phones and social media... and have been shaped by them. They receive an artificial sense of attention that modifies their mate selection.

The game has changed. If you have teenage children you should be very concerned about their social media usage, particularly for girls. Facebook, the owner of Instagram, are well aware of the issues: http://www.forbes.com/sites/kimelsesser/2021/10/05/heres-how-instagram-harms-young-women-according-to-research/?sh=3f0794a5255a

Culture has changed due to technology.

[Boethius]

That is your opinion, rwd.  It's not backed up by sociological studies.  As of 2020 (before COVID), 39% of couples met online in the US.  The vast majority of couples met either through work, school, or through other friends.


Two "incels" who slaughtered women, one in California, the other in Toronto, were both on the autism spectrum.  I think the rise in autism (which I personally believe is caused by old men fathering children - women too, but it isn't a factor until a woman is over 40, and there are relatively few women over 40 bearing children) is a bigger factor for a very small number of men not having sex.  Those men tend not to socialize a lot, where, in the right environment, their quirks would, eventually, be accepted as such. Autistic individuals tend not to socialize a lot, and that is going to lead to fewer interactions with women (and men, for that matter).