She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...

[Boethius]

She can't, by definition, be "self made" if she is demanding security from her man, Belvis.

I think the whole concept of FSUW being so "different" is flawed.  In the end, you are dealing with a human being, with human emotions, strengths, and flaws.  Perhaps her precarious economic situation, coupled with her age, mean she is fearful of starting over again in a new environment.  To that end, I would not dismiss outright her fears about economic security, although those are her issues, not Paulie's.

I would not put too much store into her friendships, Paulie.  I know plenty of people I would cross the street to avoid who have "good" friends.

At the end of the day, all you can rely on is your gut.  Your instincts told you that demanding an apartment and a stipend was not cultural.  You sought out this forum to confirm what you instinctively already knew.   Continue relying on your instincts, and you'll be fine.

[Misha]

***edited***.

Yes, it shouldn't be that complicated 

[Patagonie]

Perhaps things are different in Turkey, but in Canada I have yet to see anybody install an alarm in an apartment that they rent. In most cases the landlord would not allow it as the alarm system is wired in and if the next tenant does not want it they then have to take it out...


But, I expect that you will pay for the alarm and you will reimburse her for the money that she lost... I would say though that it is quite the coincidence that the break-in happened just before you arrived and that she had to call the police while you were on Skype...

I tried to let the OP  makes some questions about the fact that a woman who cannot pay her rent has 2500 $ in the appartment, just before the robbery... but he missed it.

[Misha]

I tried to let the OP  makes some questions about the fact that a woman who cannot pay her rent has 2500 $ in the appartment, just before the robbery... but he missed it.

Ah, I must have missed that as well. Again, another "coincidence." I would also find it odd that somebody who owed back rent of their home would have so much cash just sitting in their apartment that is on the first... Especially when a woman is from Ukraine and where there have been more than a few robberies and everybody knows that living on the first floor is very risky for theft 

[Belvis]

She can't, by definition, be "self made" if she is demanding security from her man, Belvis.

Self-made implies the status she earned long before they met. I believe almost all former sport champions are self-made persons, especially in such as gymnastics.

[BillyB]

You are both always counting money - you count yours and she counts hers. As for her..

I'm not sure Paulie was counting his money before the demand for an apartment came up. I think he was too generous to start the relationship and  now his generosity has worked against him. He now has to close the wallet and say "no" more often and will look stingy to some people including his lady.


Most RW here have mentioned money is on Paulie's mind and given advice to him as if he's a stranger. What would the advice be if Paulie is your own son who is successful, generous to you( his mother), yet has vulnerabilities around women? A good mother would advise Paulie to protect what he earned and built. It may seem as if Paulie is greedy about money but it's wise of him to protect what he earned and built just as it's wise of his lady to make sure her daughter finishes her education.


If indeed it's a goal to get her daughter a good education and with the fact Paulie is offering to be generous with an allowance to make that happen, the woman has a struggling business, it should have been a wise decision for the woman to marry Paulie whether or not love has fully developed between them. What is the hold up?


The hold up now is that the woman wants to wait until her daughter graduates. What if Paulie bought her the apartment NOW? Is the apartment needed to expedite marriage? If so, the wait till daughter graduates is just an excuse to delay things.


Paulie mentioned he has thoughts of dating other women. At this moment, since marriage isn't in the cards, that is a good thing. If a man or woman is ready for marriage and their partner isn't they aren't required to wait another year for an answer that may or may not be satisfactory. Now they both wait and it's possible if a man comes along and offers the Paulie's lady everything she asked for, she may leave him.


All's fair in love and war. No matter how many ugly things happened to one in dating, dumping someone, getting dumped, getting used, if one ends up in a happy marriage all that will be forgotten. I'm sure Paulie has a sincere interest to get into a happy marriage. In his journey he will encounter a few bumps in the road but he should not stop at a bump thinking it's the finish line.


Both Paulie and his lady discussed everything needed to make a marriage happen now. They aren't in agreement so they wait another year. No reason to say goodbye but I wouldn't blame either of them if they went looking for elsewhere for what they want.

[Faux Pas]

Ah, I must have missed that as well. Again, another "coincidence." I would also find it odd that somebody who owed back rent of their home would have so much cash just sitting in their apartment that is on the first... Especially when a woman is from Ukraine and where there have been more than a few robberies and everybody knows that living on the first floor is very risky for theft 

You're going out on a ledge there with reading of the tea leaves Misha. Stick to the facts at hand

[Paulie]

Hi again,

I had to re-read my own post to get a footing once again after more than 300 posts.  My head is spinning. 

OK, first off - thank you so much for ALL of your comments, thoughts, ideas, and including missives from some folks whose thoughts border paranoia and the absurd. 

Next, I want to say that I do love my girl, and she certainly loves me...no question about it.  Candidly, I never met a more intelligent, kind, loving, tender, funny, sassy, fun-loving woman like her.  She is very complex indeed.  She has made me feel comfortable in her home, cooked for me, bought a few personal things for me and shows concern. 

I do believe she is sincere in her idea of how she wants to be taken care of.  I AM aware of her situation where she lost all that she had.  Her ex-husband was unable to make a living.  Some people are incapable.  She worked to support her husband and the family.  (She is quite industrious.)  I will come back to this.

When I date a woman, I take care of her.  Some of you don't do that, but I do.  I pay for meals, entertainment, travel if it happens.  Sometimes my dates would pick up costs and depending on the situation I felt OK about it.  Perhaps I am old fashioned. 

I've been married twice in my life and both of my former spouses were taken care of.  I paid alimony, child support, lump sums, etc.  The last divorce cost me half my assets.  I am not complaining.  In fact, it was the best money I spent to get out of that marriage.   

Once again, what drove me here is that I felt a need to understand the differences in WM/RW relationships as it relates to how they expect to be cared for financially.  And, how do I gauge the sincerity of an RW?  (I have heard some horror stories where RW marry for money and they will make a man feel loved and cherished until the right moment when they go for the kill.)   

In the beginning of this relationship, we met in Miami where she was visiting her daughter.  We immediately found a lot of common ground.  She said she was interested in moving from Istanbul to the US because she wants to be near her daughter.  She also has lost her interest in Istanbul, stating she never felt it was home.  She said she feels the US will be her home.  She loves everything about this country. 

As time passed, and while she was in Miami, I invited her to meet me in Las Vegas, as her dream was to see Celine Dion.  We had a wonderful time.  After she went back to Miami, I met her there before she went back to Istanbul.  I then have been back and forth to her home, and in December I flew her to NYC, my former home town.  I did so because the travel was easiest from Istanbul, only 10 hours. 

All during this time, we've been talking about the future.  During this time she felt my role in getting her to the US would mostly be my responsibility and in her opinion - about 70%.  I kind of thought, "well we are not talking marriage, you are interested in moving here anyway, so maybe it should be 50/50."  I don't know...I never did this before. 

So, at several points during the course of the relationship, she exhibited expectations and requests that were unfamiliar to me.  Not once did she offer to pay anything and even if she did, I would not have accepted.  The fact that she didn't raised a flag.  Then, one time she bought some cosmetics and I asked if she had her credit card to pay, she became disturbed.   So, I thought - "this must be a cultural thing." 

I asked my daughter and knowing several RW, she inquired.  They told her some RW do have these kind of expectations that a man pay for everything.  I thought that is OK if you are married, but not while you are dating.

During the course of this relationship I bought her a laptop for $300 so we could communicate given that her (old) laptop was not working well.  After all I wanted to see her on Skype as much as possible. 

I also sent small amounts of money to help out.  To date, I think I gave her about $4K to $5K over 8 months.  I pay for her trips to the US and do not have a problem with that. 

Again, the problem is with how she would give up living in Turkey and come to the US.  This is where it begins to get dicey.  She wants to feel secure in the event things do not work out.  I understand that.  But I will not transfer a percentage of my assets to her (or anyone) via buying real estate for the sake of satiating her security needs.   I will however help pay for her ongoing expenses the minute she gets her. 

Maybe it doesn't have to be $5K a month.  Maybe we DO wait until her daughter gets out of college.  Maybe she does try to maintain her business in Turkey while she builds a business in the US. After posting to this thread and hearing from all of you,  I believe we are not there yet.  I think there needs to be more trust and understand.  And I believe I need to monitor these requests for things and money. 

On the last point - requests for things and money continue to be a concern for me.  But, maybe it shouldn't be if I plan to take care of her later in the relationship.  So, why not now? 

For those of you who need some clarity - her business losses are real.  Some of her students stopped coming for various reasons (sickness, moved away, kids not wanting to continue.)  Furthermore, running a small business is not easy at all, especially in Turkey where you are a foreigner.

For those of you who think her recent robbery was a coincidence,  I saw the iron gate that was cut open.  I was on the phone with her as she drove up to her house.  When she went in, she was shocked.  This was not staged.  She knows she can ask me for money. 

For those of you who can't do the math - she gets paid cash in her business.  Checking accounts are not common everyday as in the US.  She took in her receipts and was planning to pay her rent with the cash.  She was robbed a few days before the rent was due.  Now why would I be a dick and not help, if I love and care for her? 

As I said, the big conundrum is that I will not pay for a piece of real estate in someone else's name.  Maybe my children, yes.  But someone I've known for only 8 months and of which we spent a total of two months together...NO WAY.  Not even if I was married. 

Do I really want to pay for her daughter's education?  Not really.  My own children learned the value of money as they paid their own way through college, just as I did.  I will make one exception for my youngest son because he wants to be a doctor and this time I can actually afford it.  And I am willing to help my girlfriend because she will need support when she gets here.  It won't stop there - I would take care of her as my wife. 

Right now, I think we will continue on the path of getting to know one another more and while building trust, she can visit me in California for two months and determine if we even want to live together and if she even wants to live in California.  This will give us both ample time to sort through how to make it financially work for both of us. 

Again, thanks for all of your help and support...it really is helping me get some clarity. 

Best wishes,

Paul

PS: If you are going to be cynical, there is no need to respond.  You are only wasting your time, my time and the time of the others who post cogently constructive thinking.  Try being positive, it DOES make a difference. 

[pitbull]

Right now, I think we will continue on the path of getting to know one another more and while building trust, she can visit me in California for two months and determine if we even want to live together and if she even wants to live in California.  This will give us both ample time to sort through how to make it financially work for both of us. 

Again, thanks for all of your help and support...it really is helping me get some clarity. 

Best wishes,

Paul

Paul,
This sounds like a very sensible plan. This is exactly what I would advise a friend to do.
 
Good luck!

[jone]

My sentiments echo Pitbull's.  You have a good head on your shoulders.  With one great exception.  Anyone who is conned into going to Vegas to watch Celine Dion can't be all that bright.

[Paulie]

My sentiments echo Pitbull's.  You have a good head on your shoulders.  With one great exception.  Anyone who is conned into going to Vegas to watch Celine Dion can't be all that bright.

I will clarify this - I TOO wanted to go.  No one cons me into ANYTHING.  Boys from Brooklyn are not that easily pushed around.   

My decision was based solely on my own without being conned.  See, I have heart disease and do not know how many years I have on this earthly plane.  I worked all my life and barely enjoyed moments like those I had in Vegas. 

I saw something a month ago and it said "Live rich, don't die rich."  How true.  One of the things my honey does that I like - she knows how to find cool things to do.  She is better at that than I am.  Lastly, I actually enjoyed Celine's  music, a very nice show and a great talent. 

I always enjoy your comments and hope that  helps you understand my rationale.  :-)

[jone]

Okay, okay.  I confess.  I've seen her show too.

[Paulie]

Okay, okay.  I confess.  I've seen her show too.

LOL. 

[Doll]

Paulie, what are the guarantees she will be getting this money (monthly)? As far as I understand you can stop paying any second.
It's her "thought" too.

[Faux Pas]

Okay, okay.  I confess.  I've seen her show too.

Okay, both of you guys turn in your man cards

[Misha]

Right now, I think we will continue on the path of getting to know one another more and while building trust, she can visit me in California for two months and determine if we even want to live together and if she even wants to live in California.  This will give us both ample time to sort through how to make it financially work for both of us. 

This is certainly a good way to go about it. I have to say, you do seem level-headed and are quite cautious which is certainly a good thing. I am impressed    I am, however, sorry to hear about your health. That must not be easy news to deal with.

[Muzh]

I have read all your posts. And what I think about both of you is that there are no true feelings between you and her. You are both always counting money - you count yours and she counts hers. As for her.. Because of such women all you guys think that all Russian ( Ukrainian ) women need only your money. You both seem to be going to build a business-company, not a family. I don't see any feelings. It looks like a partnership and you both look like partners, but not like people that love each other. Saying more, you both look like partners who don't trust each other. How long do you think will exist your "business-company"?  I am sure not for long time. As soon as some problems appear, it will be over. Maybe even earlier. You wrote that you would do nothing ( to give her money ) before her daughter would have graduated. Are you afraid that she will spend some your money for her daughter? You have forgotten that if you have a woman with her daughter and you love this woman, you have all of them. You have to accept her daughter too. And a woman ( not this one ) who loves you will go with you everywhere without any guarantees.

 


My dear Tulip, where have you been all this time?

That was a fantastic response. Thank you.

[Eduard]

 


My dear Tulip, where have you been all this time?

That was a fantastic response. Thank you.

+1

[Muzh]

Tulip,

First I would like to welcome you to the forum.  Your thoughts are well thought out and well articulated.  We welcome anyone here, but especially a Ukrainian woman because half of the equation in most relationships include a woman.   

When I was young, my grandmother, who had been widowed for fifteen years, met and married a man slightly older than herself.  Now, we all knew that my grandmother's love and energy was all directed at my mother and, to a lesser degree, ourselves.    While she married someone who was successful - and she received retired teacher's pay - a lot of thought was put into the financials before their marriage.  His estate, should he have died before her, was to pay for her ongoing support, but that his home would be sold, etc. and his heirs were to get the money that was originally promised to them.  As our family (the only offspring of my grandmother) did not need to inherit his money, all seemed agreeable. 

The couple liked each other very much.  Whether there was love there, initially, I cannot tell.  But I do know that as the years went on, and 'Grandpa Bob' was accepted into the family, we saw him as both a welcome addition, and to some extent, a savior for our grandmother.  I often times traveled to visit with them.  I could see that there was love that had developed there and that she had chosen well, in someone who would care for her throughout her sunset years.

My point is that having someone to live with, even though it is not the initial love of your life, if you are well yoked (a farmer's term - it means if the relationship is not mismatched) then love will probably follow.

Not having lived to their age, I cannot discern the differences between having a love while younger or finding someone when older and trying to make it work.  But I do not begrudge anyone for trying.  I have seen much wisdom come from Paul.  He has listened to that which was presented to him from us and has altered his stance without telling the lady that she is not the one.  I am hoping that he finds his love, if not through this lady, then further down the road.

Yea, yea, yea.

You are forgetting something.

You are talking about your AMERICAN grandmother (GRHS) so it does not apply here.

The sooner you understand you are dealing with women from another culture, the better you'll be.

[Muzh]

Problem is that not many men (including me) can handle such type of independent, strong-minded  self-made women with high self-esteem.

Oh, that is self-evident here. 

[Tulip]

Tulip, First I would like to welcome you to the forum...

Thank you for welcoming me here. It was always interesting to read what men think about women. Especially if those women are from the former Soviet Union. I read what Paulie had written and decided to write a bit. That was only my opinion. As for me, the main thing in relationship is to love and to be beloved. Other things follow it. Yes, it is possible that feelings appear later and they can turn into love. Sometimes it works and it is very nice that it worked for your grandmother. But it will never work for me. I mean that I can live only with a man whom I love. It can grow then, becoming bigger, but anyway it had to be love at first. In Paulie's case.. I am sorry, but I don't see love there. It is just my opinion. When I had put my post I just wanted to tell what I think about it. Thank you for reading that and replying to me.

[Tulip]

 


My dear Tulip, where have you been all this time?

That was a fantastic response. Thank you.

Where have I been all this time?... I had to learn some English words  Thank you, that was only my opinion.

[Muzh]

Where have I been all this time?... I had to learn some English words 

Well, you have done a marvelous job at that. 

[Tulip]

Then, one time she bought some cosmetics and I asked if she had her credit card to pay, she became disturbed.

It is an ordinary thing here - if a woman has a man ( even if he is not yet her husband ) she expects him to pay some cosmetics and usually it is like that here. A woman is allowed even not to open her purse if she is next to a man. We all even have a saying here "A good girl goes for the dating without any money" In your case, she seemed to want to have you as a sponsor. And she seems to want it even now.

[Doll]

Tulip, of course the AM members loved what you wrote. Love, pure love, purified love and nothing else.
It works in 1% of A-R marriages when people go for the second or third marriage with kids from their previous relationship.
There is NO way a woman in her 40's drops everything, goes to the US to marry a guy with a prenup and she will want nothing.
 I am not surpised AM (and Ed) applaud you because this is  exactly what they want- cheap or free wife.
 AM protect themselves and their kids with prenups and a RW only can "love" and be thankful (for whatever you want to be thankful))).
 Флаг тебе в руки и барабан на шею