More Bad News for Russia

[lordtiberius]

Translation of Russian analyst Andrey Ilarionov's analysis of Putin's strategy in Ukraine.  Ilarionov is a former economic advisor to Putin.
http://euromaidanpress.com/2015/01/22/russian-analyst-illarionov-discusses-putins-plans-for-ukraine/

You cannot read this and NOT conclude that we are already in a world war.  People like jone can no longer deny it.  It is up to people like us to warn the world and punk out wimps like Obama into action.

[lordtiberius]

For this reason you see the conflict through your wife's eyes. I don't think you're able to read fluently through tens of twitters, blogs, agencies, newspapers, analitics to get own opinion.

And you are?

[lordtiberius]

Every thing written is top notch what is missing is the Middle Eastern component to all of this.  Jay says Obama is working in concert with our allies - namely the Saudis to undercut Russia.  This is false.  Obama and Putin share common Islamic goals for Europe and America.  Obama is going against his own party to prop up Iran - Russia's client state for the past 20 years.  If you look at the instability of that region, there is an Iranian hand.  Iran is the base of the Shia religion where oppressed minorities earn for exclusive rule.  Iran not only destabilizes Israel and the Levant, but they are in Yemen now.  Iran and Russia move along the same axis.

[mendeleyev]

I would like to see the reference where Putin or Lavrov voices plans to move in Ukraine with peacekeeper force as a part of current settlement.

No need to "move in" as you are already there.

Belvis, watching just the Russian news alone will leave you blind. To keep an open mind, I personally monitor all sorts of news sources. Try it sometime. Dmitry Kiselev is a shameless Nazi, and it is sad that he has a job, much less takes up breathing space on the planet.

Do some research on the letter delivered from Putin to Poroshenko, well that is if conducting such a search doesn't get you into trouble. Along with his demands that Ukraine recognize the separatists (but keep funding their regions), he wants Ukraine to agree to Russian peacekeepers and military hardware, just like in Transnistria, Abkhazia, South Ossetia, for example.

[Belvis]

Belvis, watching just the Russian news alone will leave you blind. To keep an open mind, I personally monitor all sorts of news sources. Try it sometime. Dmitry Kiselev is a shameless Nazi, and it is sad that he has a job, much less takes up breathing space on the planet.

Do some research on the letter delivered from Putin to Poroshenko, well that is if conducting such a search doesn't get you into trouble. Along with his demands that Ukraine recognize the separatists (but keep funding their regions), he wants Ukraine to agree to Russian peacekeepers and military hardware, just like in Transnistria, Abkhazia, South Ossetia, for example.

I don't watch Kiselev because he provides little information, I prefer to read primary sources. I read more Ukrainian sources than Russian ones but of course not Tymchuk or Lysenko. Ukrainian soldiers and volunteers provide plenty of info in Facebook.

OK, let's get down to business. Can you provide the reference to text of Putin's letter to Poroshenko? I read text in the official body (Российская газета) but see there no words you have attributed to Putin. My direct questions, make a reference in Russian to your claims:
1. Ukraine must recognize the separatists
2. Keep funding their regions
3. Ukraine have  to agree to Russian peacekeepers and military hardware

May bе you mean the other letter to Poroshenko? Not the last one in January 2015?

[mendeleyev]

FT, were Mr. Putin to see you walking across a Kremlin courtyard, would he recognize you?  Have covered events at the office/presidential residence in Novo-Ogaryovo?  Have you traveled with Mr. Putin? Asked him questions? Been rebuked by him? Attended church services with him present?

Have you heard him explain his vision of history, the baptism of Prince Vladimir (Kyiv), the significance of the one nation/two branches that began as the KievanRus?

When you have, you can advance beyond the theory stage and then I'll understand that you know something.

Until then, let us review:

- The Eurasian Union cannot survive without Ukraine. Take a look at a map of Europe, and with VP's eyes, imagine what it means if that is part of the Eurasian Union. Now look again, and with VP's eyes, imagine what it would mean if that piece of the map was aligned with Western Europe.

- Mr. Putin has a strong sense of purpose. He has a vision of and believes in the exceptionalism of Russia, and while at times it may seem as a burden, he feels that he is the right man at the right time, to lead Russia while she is surrounded by the enemy West.

Do you understand his determination to establish the Eurasian Union into a viable trading bloc? Can you see and feel the angst inside him when that project is threatened? Do you understand that without it, Russia will always be just a secondary/regional economy?

Like you, I am irritated by Western news anchors who pretend to know his mind; especially those who have never met him, or simply flew in for a brief visit.

If given a piece of Ukraine, no, he will not stop, other than long enough for sanctions to be lifted.

Naturally, he will accept a piece if someone were so stupid to offer, but frankly he'd rather not.

Let me repeat: he'd rather not have a piece of Ukraine, and especially not that piece. Eastern Ukraine means little for the Eurasian trading bloc, other than coal deposits. The real wealth of Ukraine is the heartland, and the educated worker consumers in the West. That is what his Eurasian Union needs.

Rather than accept a piece, he'd rather keep stirring the pot. Having his "peacekeepers" in contested regions would ensure that the EU and NATO would never offer Ukraine a home. It also keeps the unrest alive so that he can fight another day, and enjoy de facto control in the meantime.

What you bolded is indeed logical to you and I. We think with a Western worldview. Mr. Putin does not. He, in the very fiber of his being, views the world via an Eastern mindset. And what you would so longingly believe to be logical, makes no sense to his Eastern way of thinking.

[mendeleyev]

Belvis, I will answer you, but must leave for appointments. In the meantime, I'd kindly refer you to the plan President Putin laid out at the end of his Mongolia trip (September 3rd). Sadly, all of his peace proposals have been along the same lines, essentially a rehash over and over of much the same things.

Until he admits that his troops are inside Ukraine, and part of the fighting (like he eventually did regarding Crimea), then his calls for cease fire and pull backs sound hollow.

[Изумруд]

Translation of Russian analyst Andrey Ilarionov's analysis of Putin's strategy in Ukraine.  Ilarionov is a former economic advisor to Putin.
http://euromaidanpress.com/2015/01/22/russian-analyst-illarionov-discusses-putins-plans-for-ukraine/

Thanks for the link Boe, that's a facinating synopsis of Putin's goals.  I'm not sure I agree with the opinion on the Baltic States; however, the stakes are being raised by the week.

[Doll]

I second Belvis- Mendy, until you give us solid links to what Putin wants or thinks, everything what you write here is just YOUR opinion. People on this board want to read what you post but Belvis and I are not buying it.

[Doll]

Mendeleyev, how do you know what Belvis and I watch? All the infor is open for everybody.

[Doll]

Have you heard him explain his vision of history, the baptism of Prince Vladimir (Kyiv), the significance of the one nation/two branches that began as the KievanRus?

What's another "vision"? He stated the fact.

[sleepycat]

People on this board want to read what you post but Belvis and I are not buying it.

And you think the rest of us are buying that Putinist BS you are spewing out? 

Looks like your Kremlin handlers aren't getting value for the money they're paying you; so far you haven't managed to convert even one single person on this board into a Putinist... 

[Doll]

Sleepy, Belvis and I are not "buying" Mendy's personal opinion that he feeds you like facts.
This is what he (Mendy) thinks.
Unlike most of you, I read Department of States daily briefings- none of prove was delivered. Trust me, they have much more power to get this prove than Mendy 

[Taz]

Until he admits that his troops are inside Ukraine, and part of the fighting (like he eventually did regarding Crimea), then his calls for cease fire and pull backs sound hollow.

He will only do this AFTER he has achieved his goals. Oh yeah, by the way, we did have a few Russian troops in Ukraine. This admission will come after thousands of them have died and he has tried to take over half of Ukraine and fomented unrest in the other half through terrorist acts such as the bombings he is behind already.

[Taz]

I wonder how the Kreimlin apologists/propagandists will spin this article.


http://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2015/01/22/russia-jails-the-proof-it-is-at-war-column/22183051/?




The problem with the truth is that Russia can't hide it forever. The internet helps get all manner of things out into the public domain. It is harder and harder, even with all the Russian trolls, to hide the truth from the rest of the world.


The problem for Putin is if his country new the real truth about his actions he would be out of power very quickly. Like usual the Russian people are being manipulated. Sorry, I should correct myself, I should have said the Russian Sheeple.


Maybe they could have a new declaration of dependence...


We the Sheeple, of the dictatorship of Russia, in order to form and even more obedient and enslaved Russia, do hereby pledge our authority, all personal rights and freedoms, to V. Putin. We do hereby solemnly swear, to never question his divine authority, given to him by the equally corrupt Russian Orthodox church, and to continue licking his boots while begging for any scrap of freedom he might give us. We promise to look the other way as our economy continues to crumble and he continues to reward his oligarch friends by raiding our pension fund to help make them whole for the losses his policies have cost them, It is our sworn duty to not worry about our wretched suffering and the difficulty of buying basic necessities so that they (his enabling oligarchs) might have more money to buy even more caviar and more Mercedes...
[/size]
[/size]I could go on but you get the point.

[jone]

I don't watch Kiselev because he provides little information, I prefer to read primary sources. I read more Ukrainian sources than Russian ones but of course not Tymchuk or Lysenko. Ukrainian soldiers and volunteers provide plenty of info in Facebook.

OK, let's get down to business. Can you provide the reference to text of Putin's letter to Poroshenko? I read text in the official body (Российская газета) but see there no words you have attributed to Putin. My direct questions, make a reference in Russian to your claims:
1. Ukraine must recognize the separatists
2. Keep funding their regions
3. Ukraine have  to agree to Russian peacekeepers and military hardware

May bе you mean the other letter to Poroshenko? Not the last one in January 2015?

This coming from the guy who maintains less than 30 Russian soldiers killed in the fighting.   

Belvis, you come across more and more as a paid (mis) informant.  What are you?  A colonel is the KGB?

When I posted direct newspaper articles from local newspapers indicating Russian soldiers killed, you immediately tried to discredit your own newspapers.   You should be ashamed that your country is not admitting that your own soldiers are getting killed in an undeclared war. 

What type of response will we get from you?  More deflection and more disinformation.  That is what we have learned to expect from your government and your (collective) people.  Is there any wonder that people on here are skeptical of the posts you bring forward?

We know Putin isn't a man enough to tell the truth.  He practices the Big Soviet Lie, with polish.  Nice to see he has an accolade. 

[Muzh]

By other words you casted your vote for war.  Fortunately this is not a polling, and I have reasons to believe the peace talks will be resumed soon.
I would like to see the reference where Putin or Lavrov voices plans to move in Ukraine  with peacekeeper force as a part of current settlement. World leaders are trying desperately to find clues to Putin's intentions but some jornalists know them already 

So, you vote for slavery, right?

[Brasscasing]

So far Putin has concluded he can keep pushing. While pretending he's interested in peace talks and a ceasefire, he continue to move his military West and finalizing paperwork on taking parts of Georgia.


Obama pretends to be tough by applying sanctions but does other things that put money in Russia's pocket. Obama lifted sanctions against Iran as part of the "reset" with Russia, and recently completed purchasing over a billion dollars of suspiciously overpriced Russian military hardware for Afghanistan's military. Obama is giving Iran over 12 billion dollars to lure them to the negotiating table to talk about nukes. Don't know if nuke talks will be fruitful but Iran did engage in a military deal with Russia recently. Our tax dollars at work....against us. I'm sure Iran will end up doing what they always do, take the money and pretend to cooperate until they need more money. Maybe Obama can send Putin a few billion dollars to lure him to the peace talk table too? Maybe we can buy Russian military equipment for Ukraine as we did for Afghanistan? Links 1 and 2


Putin is also making friends with some of the worlds worst actors. Besides making deals with China and Iran recently, he scheduled to have, arguably the worst dictator in the world, Kim Jong-Un visit Moscow. Can any good come of this? Link 3. Putin is extremely active for a guy not involved in Ukraine.


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/12/08/russian-helicopters-us-1-billion-afghan-military_n_4408278.html


http://www.dodbuzz.com/2014/11/03/russia-delivers-last-of-u-s-bought-helicopters-to-afghan-military/


http://news.yahoo.com/china-welcome-kim-jong-un-visit-moscow-192149710.html



What's a few dozen Kozak vehicles going to do against tanks? I know the article states USA is delivering them but they are made in Ukraine. In link below is America's "Security Assurances" to Ukraine. While we've bought over a billion dollars of Russian military equipment over the last few years for Afghanistan and giving 12 billion dollars to Iran to encourage them to talk to us, we are giving Ukraine 23 million in military assistance, some of that is in the form of food. Hopefully Obama gets his priorities straight.


http://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2014/06/04/fact-sheet-us-security-assistance-ukraine

You cannot keyword this helicopter purchase without seeing that the initial contract was procured back in 2011 before the Ukraine invasion and was then was later cancelled in 2013 because the Russian company was also supplying the Assad regime. There was no pretending to be tough. There is no current spending with Russian companies. Different time frame and not relevant to the current policy towards Russia.

As far as the Kozaks go. I posted to this yesterday here...

http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=17720.msg390053#msg390053

No, they're not tanks, however, the U.S. is in the door and that's a start. Considering the current administration in Washington this is a significant step forward and shouldn't be disregarded.

Brass

[AC]

War with the west is inevitable if Putin/Russia continues down the path he/they're currently on.

Putin's intentions are no mystery. They are the same intentions every jingoistic warmonger has had throughout history. Putin likes the idea of military strength and using that military strength. He's manipulated the Russian population into supporting his agenda then using that agenda to justify his aggression towards neighboring countries.

Putin's agenda right now is Ukraine. In [edited to read 07/08] it was Georgia.

Putin's "peacekeepers" are already in Ukraine. They're the terrorists currently using t-72's, Grad rocket launchers, artillery chemical/biological warfare against anything and anyone who gets in their way civilian or otherwise.

 

Putin is a ruthless dictator who does not really care about peace or borders.  Just look what happened after Neville Chamberlain agreed to give Hitler the Sudenland in 1938.  Hitler promised that would be all but it wasn't.  Soon afterwards Hitler took the rest of Czechoslovakia and soon after that his tanks were rolling into Poland.

Give Putler E. Ukraine and from there he will launch his next offensive against the rest of Ukraine.  Mende can probably post his quotes where he says that Ukraine is not a real country.  In a different post he said that Russian soldiers would hide behind women and children and that the Ukrainians would have to kill the women and children to get to his Russian soldiers (missAmeno posted it once).

His intentions are clear and any talk of "peace" is just a stalling tactic by him and his zombies.  The West needs to wake up now, or the price to remove him from a country that does not belong to him will be even higher.

[Belvis]

So, you vote for slavery, right?

You're telling now  Ukrainians: guys, you're free to die. Die or be a slave.
I have no objections if you go on war, it's your choice and I respect it. But I feel unkomfortable when you want to observe killing others.

[Belvis]

What type of response will we get from you?  More deflection and more disinformation.  That is what we have learned to expect from your government and your (collective) people.  Is there any wonder that people on here are skeptical of the posts you bring forward?

I exposed you couple times as being either misinformed or trying to spread fake news. You should not take the offense, I hope we both stay for freedom of speech 

[AC]

You're telling now  Ukrainians: guys, you're free to die. Die or be a slave.
I have no objections if you go on war, it's your choice and I respect it. But I feel unkomfortable when you want to observe killing others.

We're not telling them anything.  Poroshenko went to the US Congress to plead for weapons and other assistance because he knows it is better to fight for ones country then to be a slave to the bully to the East.  Your propaganda is not working.  What is the name that Ukrainians have unanimously given to your great leader?  That's right, huiilo.

[Muzh]

You're telling now  Ukrainians: guys, you're free to die. Die or be a slave.
I have no objections if you go on war, it's your choice and I respect it. But I feel unkomfortable when you want to observe killing others.

LMAO


I'm not telling Ukrainians anything.


They are doing that by themselves, which is scaring many Russians shitless. 


So, I have to agree with Jone, you have to be KGB or a paid misinformant.


Also, how do you manage to get Ukrainian Facebook in Russia? My MIL's brother in Omsk cannot see her niece's page in Kharkiv because it is full of war stuff.

[jone]

You sure do.

You observe killing others.  Your country is at war with Ukraine.  Plain and simple.  Yet you sit there and pontificate telling people that their positions are the reasons that Ukrainians are getting killed.   

No person who is NOT GETTING PAID would sit there and allow his own countrymen to get killed without at least acknowledging that they are there and feel ..... something.  Don't you care for the young Cargo 200 kids coming back across the border and their grieving parents or wives who are told ... nothing.

You have the same mentality of the German people who watched with glee as the Wehrmacht stomped over countries in the early stages of WWII.

(Muzh, I was being facetious when I said KGB.  Hearkening back to Soviet times.  The FSB carries little of the stigma of its predecessor.  But I bet it catches up in the next couple of years.)

[Doll]

 
 

Also, how do you manage to get Ukrainian Facebook in Russia? 

What do you mean- how? Log in and read it